G5 PowerBook: "...by the end of next year." -Steve Jobs

[Freg3000]

From MacMinute (http://macminute.com/2003/09/21/jobs2)

Jobs on PowerBook G5, consolidation of PC industry
September 21, 2003 - 14:41 EDT__ An article on the Spanish Web site 5Dias and an interview in the German publication F.A.Z. offer a few interesting tidbits from Apple CEO Steve Jobs. According to 5Dias, Jobs reportedly said last week that Apple is currently working on a PowerBook G5 and hopes to introduce it "by the end of next year." In the interview with F.A.Z., Jobs said he expects that the computer industry will continue to consolidate, while others will disappear completely from the market. In particular, he said (according to the BableFish translator) "the future position of gateway is very uncertain" and he imagines Sony to withdraw itself completely from the PC business.

[johnnowak]

Noooooo!!!

Me need G5 laptop by March. :-(

Anyone know anything about this?

[Ramsos]

I think gateway is moving away from computers and focusing more on electronics such as plasma tvs, digital Cameras, DVD players. home theater systems. etc... I don't even remember that last time i saw a gateway commercial that actually included PC's.

[MacsRgr8]

Whoa Freg3000....
Gr8 find.
Is Steve suddenly giving roadmaps?
i.e.: "G5 to 3 GHz by this time next year", "Hope to introduce the PB G5 by the end of next year"

???? :confused:

If the PB won't get the G5 till end of next year.... what will it get until then???
G4 7457??? Highly doubtfull. I can't believe Moto still will deliver processors for Apple next year.
G3 750 GX (or better) ??? Branded the G4-and-a-half... If Moto doesn't deliver any G4's anymore, then I think Apple could brand any PPC with SIMD units a G4. Leave the G5 as a 64 bits CPU, brand any 32 bits CPU with Altivec a G4 (just to take the marketing "age" out of the G3 750 GX)

Very interesting.

[QCassidy352]

End of 2004 for a G5 powerbook isn't good news at all.

[Giaguara]

this is a year of laptops

a part of its prices, from 1599 and 2999 euros, they are notably better than many laptops that have WIndows OS, and Jobs confirmed that with these models the share of laptops of total computers in apple will raise to 50 % and to be the best year so far (or this or the next year) he afirmed to european journalists.

the revolution will be the laptops with 64 bit processors, g5, that the compnay has developed together with ibm, using 3.000 dollars to develop it. "we are working on it and we'd like to complete it b efore the end of year" (jobs) confirmed.

apple had the last fiscal (economical? tax year?) year 5.489 mln euros of profit (?), with (profit??) 66,3 mln.


sorry i'm tired. desculpe mi spanglish.

[microrario]

"Reconoció después que la revolución decisiva será la introducción en los portátiles del nuevo chip de 64 bits, G5, que la compañía ha desarrollado junto a IBM, con una inversión de 3.000 millones de dólares. 'Estamos trabajando en ello y lo que nos gustaría es conseguirlo para finales del año que viene', afirmó."

"He believes that after the decisive change there will be an introduction of the new 64 bit G5s into laptops that the company has developed with IBM, with an investment of 3 billion dollars. 'We are working on this and we would like to release this before the end of next year.' he assured."

[VladDracul]

A slight change on the translation above by microrario (although nothing substantial) :)

"Reconoció después que la revolución decisiva será la introducción en los portátiles del nuevo chip de 64 bits, G5, que la compañía ha desarrollado junto a IBM, con una inversión de 3.000 millones de dólares. 'Estamos trabajando en ello y lo que nos gustaría es conseguirlo para finales del año que viene', afirmó."


"Afterwards he admitted that the decisive revolution will be the introduction in laptops of the new 64 bits chip, the G5, that the company has developed along with IBM, with an investment of 3 billion dollars. 'We are working on it and what we'd like is to have it by the end of next year', he said".

[JSRockit]

They better start working on getting the G4 with 512 L2 and L3 of 1mb-2mb going...we're gonna need it.

I was hoping for next summer.

[windwaves]

Originally posted by VladDracul
A slight change on the translation above by microrario (although nothing substantial) :)

"Reconoció después que la revolución decisiva será la introducción en los portátiles del nuevo chip de 64 bits, G5, que la compañía ha desarrollado junto a IBM, con una inversión de 3.000 millones de dólares. 'Estamos trabajando en ello y lo que nos gustaría es conseguirlo para finales del año que viene', afirmó."


"Afterwards he admitted that the decisive revolution will be the introduction in laptops of the new 64 bits chip, the G5, that the company has developed along with IBM, with an investment of 3 billion dollars. 'We are working on it and what we'd like is to have it by the end of next year', he said".

eventually, someone got it right !!!

[microrario]

Even though the prices are between 1,599 and 2,999 euros, and even though there are many laptops with Windows OS, Jobs affirms that Apple laptops will be 50% of the sales of portables 'perhaps the next year or the year after', he said in front of european newswriters.

He recognized afterward that the that decisive revolution will be their introduction of the new 64 bit G5s into laptops that the company has developed with IBM, with an investment of 3 billion dollars. 'We are working on this and we would like to release this before the end of next year.' he assured.

Apple's fiscal gain was 5.489 billion euros, with a profit of 66.3 million.

He is basically saying that after their introduction of G5s into portables, they will have 50% of the sales of portable computers.


Hope this helps.

[microrario]

Sorry about the mistakes, I didn't know what the context of the paragraph was. Look at Page 2 and I translated the whole article, it makes sense now.

[admin edit: threads merged. full translation merged into this thread]

[Freg3000]

Apple could announce them in June 2004, and ship them before the end of the year.....in October 2004.

This worries me a bit. Everyone thought that the "before the end of the year" deadlines for Panther and iTMS for Windows were very conservative. However, now some realize that perhaps they are not. Maybe we should take Steve at his word. No G5 PowerBooks for at least a year.

I hope it isn't true. :(

[MacsRgr8]

Safe to say:
NO POWERBOOKS G5 UNTIL END OF 2004?

Here's to 750 GX (Gobi, later Mojave)?
G3 + Altivec, > 1 GHz, > 167 MHz FSB...

Like I said before: Apple can't really brand these the "old" G3's, can they? Or are Apple gonna use the, eh, expected and anticipated G4 7457...? I still think Moto will pull the plug on the G4.....
Let Moto do the cell phones with M$. Serves them right... ha ha.

[Hawthorne]

I hope they can get it faster, too.

On the other hand, I was quite happy with my Lombard during the years I had a G4 450, so I can wait a year between the rollout of the G5 in a desktop and a G4 in a notebook.

Actually, I have yet to get a G4 notebook, as I'm typing this on my lil' ol' 700mhz iBook, so maybe i'm not the target market on this one....

:)

[JSRockit]

Since I have the 12" pBook (1st gen), I think I will just wait the year.

[Phil Of Mac]

I think it's clear that Steve Jobs came from the future.

And he's probably being conservative about "end of the year" here too. Obviously, no one really knows.

[panphage]

Gobi does not have any Altivec. It was rumored to last year before IBM said anything about it, but not IBM IS talking and there's no altivec.

http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/products/PowerPC_750GX_Microprocessor

[alxths]

Hmm.. well I'd say its not unlikely that he just gave that date to stop peopel from skipping out on the current pbs in anticipation for a g5 powerbook. He could be just trying to get us all to by new pbs now.. and then new g5s when they're released in ...summerish? I dunno.. just thought id throw it out there.

[dongmin]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
And he's probably being conservative about "end of the year" here too. Obviously, no one really knows.

Yeah it's hard to make any real inferences from this statement. But it sounds like it's later than sooner, no? Second half of 2004, maybe. That means we'll have at least one more G4 update. Wow, I didn't think the G4 had any legs left.

[JSRockit]

Originally posted by dongmin
Yeah it's hard to make any real inferences from this statement. But it sounds like it's later than sooner, no? Second half of 2004, maybe. That means we'll have at least one more G4 update. Wow, I didn't think the G4 had any legs left.

If apple says one date, add a few weeks/ months to that timeframe (history has taught us this).

[esheep2001]

Originally posted by dongmin
Yeah it's hard to make any real inferences from this statement. But it sounds like it's later than sooner, no? Second half of 2004, maybe. That means we'll have at least one more G4 update. Wow, I didn't think the G4 had any legs left.

Hmm, the last 15" update took 10 months. There doesn't need to be an update and frankly I'd bevery suprised if there is. I expect Apple to be working flat out on the G5.

e.

[JSRockit]

Originally posted by esheep2001
Hmm, the last 15" update took 10 months. There doesn't need to be an update and frankly I'd bevery suprised if there is. I expect Apple to be working flat out on the G5.

e.

Yeah, I agree...I don't think we will see another G4 update.

[Stella]

Its really no surprise Apple have been working on G5s PB.

Apple want > 50% of their sales to be laptops.. and people want G5 laptops.. in contrast to - people want Blue tooth mice, but don't want (generally) one mouse button - sorry, I couldn't resist!

I'm surprised that if it really does take as long as December '94 for apple to get G5 PB out though..

[Nutzoids]

A year away isn't that long if you think about it. It's just one more Quite Revision...maybe just a speed bump. Next year (2004) should be the year for the Desktop. G5 PowerMac hits 3GHz...then 2005 is the year of the Laptop again...2GHz G5 PowerBooks...1.6 G5 for iBooks and iMacs...I can't expect too much more this year...Apple really out did themselves!

Way to Go Steve!
:D

[Roller]

It's important not to read too much into statements like these. All it says is that they're working toward a G5 PB in '04, probably later in the year. So anyone who's holding off on the new G4's hoping for a G5 in March will probably be disappointed. But late next summer or next fall wouldn't be out of the question.

[Blackcat]

"By the end of next year" is wonderfully vague. Jan 04 means we got it "By the end of next year" as does Feb, March... etc.

Translate it too "Buy a G4 now, you know you want one!"

[arn]

Originally posted by Roller
It's important not to read too much into statements like these. All it says is that they're working toward a G5 PB in '04, probably later in the year. So anyone who's holding off on the new G4's hoping for a G5 in March will probably be disappointed. But late next summer or next fall wouldn't be out of the question.

yep - I agree.

this statement doesn't really tell us anything we don't already know.

1) They are working on G5 PowerBooks
2) Hopefullly in 2004.

I guess it does imply that it's not "right around the corner"... but even if it were, I doubt Jobs would say so.

arn

[anaquin]

yea cool! im gona have one of those!

[gotohamish]

Originally posted by Freg3000
From MacMinute (http://macminute.com/2003/09/21/jobs2)

Jobs on PowerBook G5, consolidation of PC industry
September 21, 2003 - 14:41 EDT__ An article on the Spanish Web site 5Dias and an interview in the German publication F.A.Z. offer a few interesting tidbits from Apple CEO Steve Jobs. According to 5Dias, Jobs reportedly said last week that Apple is currently working on a PowerBook G5 and hopes to introduce it "by the end of next year." In the interview with F.A.Z., Jobs said he expects that the computer industry will continue to consolidate, while others will disappear completely from the market. In particular, he said (according to the BableFish translator) "the future position of gateway is very uncertain" and he imagines Sony to withdraw itself completely from the PC business.

When was this EXACTLY said? End of *which* year? ;-)

[Nutzoids]

Originally posted by Roller
It's important not to read too much into statements like these. All it says is that they're working toward a G5 PB in '04, probably later in the year. So anyone who's holding off on the new G4's hoping for a G5 in March will probably be disappointed. But late next summer or next fall wouldn't be out of the question.


Good point...not only does he have to keep us (rumor junkies) off his back and keep us happy but he has to keep the investors happy as well. And keep them off his back too. He was just trying to let everyone know what they are doing with the Billions made each year. Pointing at the future.

[Abstract]

I believe Steve when he says that they won't be out until near the end of 2004. The question remains: What happens until then? Apple can't go without an update in their Powerbooks for 15 months........they just can't. I expect one more update of some sort

They can't keep using Moto's G4 because that isn't getting any better, and there really isn't anywhere else to go. Maybe they have a big plan set up with IBM..........some sort of secret!!!

I really don't know.

[crees!]

Well, there you have it folks. There is your definition of "Not any time soon."

So for those who really need a PB now but really wanted it to be a G5PB.. either buy the current one now or suck it up and hush up for just about a year.

[neutrino23]

Apple usually doesn't talk about new products. By the end of next year (2004) is so far out that Steve is comfortable to make it public. It doesn't mean that he expects to release them in December, 2004.

Anyway, I am ordering a 15" Al PB this afternoon. Woohoo!

[nitropowered]

Well i'm really hoping that they are released before the 04-05 school year. I don't want to be stuck with no laptop for the first few months of college. And it would be totally useless and wasteful to buy a g4 book and replace it in 2 months with a g5.

[Kurt]

Originally posted by neutrino23
Anyway, I am ordering a 15" Al PB this afternoon. Woohoo!

I am sure that was one of the reasons he said by the end of next year. He doesn't want Powerbook G4 sales to dry up so soon after the release of new models.

[reyesmac]

If Steve can't get the G5 into Apples Powerbooks for another year at least, what are the chances that Apple will bring its consumer iMacs up to speed with the PC world by upgrading them to G5's? I say slim to none, not until after the powerbooks have G5's for a while. I guess that means that the G4's still will be around for the forseeable future.

[hayesk]

Originally posted by nitropowered
Well i'm really hoping that they are released before the 04-05 school year. I don't want to be stuck with no laptop for the first few months of college. And it would be totally useless and wasteful to buy a g4 book and replace it in 2 months with a g5.

Or you could just by the g4 and be happy, knowing full well that the existance of a faster laptop is irrelevant as your G4 does what you need it to do anyway. ;)

[gothamac]

Apple/OSX/IBM vs. Dell/MS/Intel

[crees!]

Originally posted by gothamac
Apple/OSX/IBM vs. Dell/MS/Intel

Apple/OSX/IBM

Or you could just buy the g4 and be happy, knowing full well that the existance of a faster laptop is irrelevant as your G4 does what you need it to do anyway.

Well said. That has to be the brightest, most intelligent statement I've heard yet. Is this the start of something positive!? I sure hope so.

[SiliconAddict]

NOT good. This would actually be the worst news I could imagine at least for me. If we are talking after the 1/2 half of the year I’m not biting and most likely will get a 1.9Ghz Pentium M based system that is expected to have 1MB of L2 cache all on a 90NM chip process.
Until now anything Intel releases I take with a grain of salt. The Pentium M is an entirely different breed of cat. It’s actually a “gasp” decent chip. Unfortunately I need a system that can run Windows. Be it am actual PC or a Mac that is running VPC I need something. Dropping Windows is not an option. I have several thousand dollars in software that I don’t feel like flushing all in the name of using a Mac. My experience with testing VPC on a 17” PowerBook along with my software at an Apple store was not a good one. Hence the reason I’ve been sitting on my thumbs waiting for a G5 PowerBook. I want to go Mac. But if something faster doesn’t show up in the first half of next year I may say screw it and go Dell which would negate me from getting a Mac at least for another 2-3 years. DAMN. :( :mad:
So much for the parallel development idea that people had. Well my entire day is now officially a bust.

PS- Yes I'm aware I haven't tried VPC on the new PowerBooks. Hears hoping its faster but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[DHagan4755]

I would supposition that Apple will speed bump the PowerBooks with their last G4 rev between March and May of 2004, then release new IBM G5-based PowerBooks around this time next year.

[macrumors12345]

Originally posted by JSRockit
They better start working on getting the G4 with 512 L2 and L3 of 1mb-2mb going...we're gonna need it.

I was hoping for next summer.

Um, this chip already exists - it's called the MPC 7457 (Apple just hasn't chosen to use the L3 cache option with it yet). Do you mean ramping up the frequency on it?

[CrackedButter]

You have to wonder also, what speeds are these going to debut at. Intel and AMD isn't sitting still with their products. Granted the G5 will hit dual 3Ghz but that doesn't mean a G5 laptop will. Next year the Centrino could be at 2+ Ghz and then what would Apple do? They need to stay competitive with the Centrino at least because it is quite good. This seems to be the pacemaker for Apple to compete against.

As the powerbook line suffers the iBook line suffers also lest we forget.

But to be more positive, Jobs seems quite confident in the way he presents himself while onstage at any of the expo's considering the state of the powerbook line. Even though they are lagging behind, its still the year of the laptop and making enough news to let people know this while at the same time putting focus on these products. Which is strange really because you would want to do the opposite.

[usersince86]

The next best thing (faster, bigger, smaller, more features, etc.) is ALWAYS on the horizon.

At some point, you just have to buy one, and realize in 2 months you'll get more for less.

For a fun study go to www.everymac.com and compare your current Mac to one from 2, 5, 10, 15 years ago.

(Of course, for some of us, that IS our computer!)

Especially check out the specs and then the PRICE of the Mac IIfx... we've come a long way, baby!

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by Stella
I'm surprised that if it really does take as long as December '94 for apple to get G5 PB out though..

I would have been pissed off if Apple released a G5 PB in December 94. That's the same year I got my 6100, and I would have just been blown out of the water.

Originally posted by nitropowered
Well i'm really hoping that they are released before the 04-05 school year. I don't want to be stuck with no laptop for the first few months of college. And it would be totally useless and wasteful to buy a g4 book and replace it in 2 months with a g5.

Where the hell are you people going to college? I've been just fine with my iMac 400 since late August.You don't *need* a laptop as long as you have your own computer of some sort. At least not for the first 2 months of your freshman year. Go ahead and wait.

My 15" PB ships Tuesday.

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Dropping Windows is not an option. I have several thousand dollars in software that I don’t feel like flushing all in the name of using a Mac.

Why don't you keep your current computer to run your Windows software, and buy a Mac to run Mac software? You don't have to replace your software all at once.

Originally posted by CrackedButter
You have to wonder also, what speeds are these going to debut at. Intel and AMD isn't sitting still with their products. Granted the G5 will hit dual 3Ghz but that doesn't mean a G5 laptop will. Next year the Centrino could be at 2+ Ghz and then what would Apple do? They need to stay competitive with the Centrino at least because it is quite good. This seems to be the pacemaker for Apple to compete against.

I think a 2 GHz PowerBook G5 is reasonable for late summer 2004.

[legion]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
NOT good. This would actually be the worst news I could imagine at least for me. If we are talking after the 1/2 half of the year I’m not biting and most likely will get a 1.9Ghz Pentium M based system that is expected to have 1MB of L2 cache all on a 90NM chip process.

Ummm... the current Pentium M has 1 MB L2 on 130nm process (max 1.7; named Banias)

...the Pentium M 1.8 and higher (including the 1.9) will have 2MB L2 on 90nm (max up to 3; named Dothan.)

[goof_ball]

I certainly hope that Apple's engineers won't take a year and a half to get them in a laptop. Whats the limiting factor? Obviously heat is...but how are these chips on power?

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by CrackedButter
You have to wonder also, what speeds are these going to debut at. Intel and AMD isn't sitting still with their products. Granted the G5 will hit dual 3Ghz but that doesn't mean a G5 laptop will. Next year the Centrino could be at 2+ Ghz and then what would Apple do?


The Pentium M, a.k.a Centrino, is expected at 2Ghz around 2rd quarter using a 90nm process and 1-2MB of L2 cache.

[lmalave]

Originally posted by Nutzoids
A year away isn't that long if you think about it. It's just one more Quite Revision...maybe just a speed bump. Next year (2004) should be the year for the Desktop. G5 PowerMac hits 3GHz...then 2005 is the year of the Laptop again...2GHz G5 PowerBooks...1.6 G5 for iBooks and iMacs...I can't expect too much more this year...Apple really out did themselves!

Way to Go Steve!
:D

G5 iBook in 2 years sounds about right. I think they'll launch G5 PowerBooks long before then, though. Probably it's more like they'll launch G5 PBooks in about a year with maybe the same speed range of the current PowerMacs (1.6 to 2.0 GHz), then at the same time unleash the rumored power of the G3 and bump those up to 1.6 or 1.8 GHz, maybe even finally adding Altivec.

G5 iBooks ing about 2 years is totally fine with me, since that's also about the time I plan to replace my trusty lil' 800MHz G3 iBook, which will be about 3 years old by then.

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by legion
Ummm... the current Pentium M has 1 MB L2 on 130nm process (max 1.7; named Banias)

...the Pentium M 1.8 and higher (including the 1.9) will have 2MB L2 on 90nm (max up to 3; named Dothan.)

Ya I know. I got my numbers mixed up. Sorry. Dothan is expected to be out 2nd to 3rd quarter starting out at 2Ghz. I thought I had read somewhere that a Pentium M-II chip was due out 4th quarter of 2004. *sighs* It doesn't really matter I guess.

[vrapan]

My experience with testing VPC on a 17” PowerBook along with my software at an Apple store was not a good one. Hence the reason I’ve been sitting on my thumbs waiting for a G5 PowerBook.

Sorry to point it out to you but VPC is not made to run all your expensive PC software on a Mac with the speed that a current PC would. VPC is made to run the occasional PC program on the Mac if you have to. Runnin all your PC software on a Mac through VPC beats the purpose of buying a Mac which is to use Mac OS X as your OS. If you want a pretty laptop to run your PC software I bet you can find several PC manufacturers with a decent looks. If I were you I wouldn't spend 3000 on a Mac and run XP through VPC on it. You get all the problems of the XP plus the reduced performace of an emulator.

And just in case you don't know that yet VPC is not compatible with G5 and I haven't heard MS having plans to make it compatible.

So buy a Mac if you are going to use the single most important thing that makes it a Mac: The OS X

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by lmalave
G5 iBook in 2 years sounds about right. I think they'll launch G5 PowerBooks long before then, though. Probably it's more like they'll launch G5 PBooks in about a year with maybe the same speed range of the current PowerMacs (1.6 to 2.0 GHz), then at the same time unleash the rumored power of the G3 and bump those up to 1.6 or 1.8 GHz, maybe even finally adding Altivec.

G5 iBooks ing about 2 years is totally fine with me, since that's also about the time I plan to replace my trusty lil' 800MHz G3 iBook, which will be about 3 years old by then.

G5 iBooks within months of G5 PowerBooks.

Precedent: Original iBook, Lombard/Pismo.

[Raiden]

This is disapointing, I was really hoping for a G5 powerbook by august so I could buy it for college. I am a HS senior and I have been saving up 2000 bucks so I could spend it on a powerbook when I goto college. It would suck to be forced to buy a G4 for college a few months before the G5 comes out...

:( big bummer...

[mvc]

Hmm, less than stunning news. Assuming the top G5 Powerbook debuts with say a 90nm 2GHz single processor, any thoughts how would that compare speed wise with say a 2.0GHz Centrino, which presumably will be available by then. Will they still be in the game?

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by Raiden
This is disapointing, I was really hoping for a G5 powerbook by august so I could buy it for college. I am a HS senior and I have been saving up 2000 bucks so I could spend it on a powerbook when I goto college. It would suck to be forced to buy a G4 for college a few months before the G5 comes out...

:( big bummer...

If I was in a bad mood I'd tell you to get a clue, but I'm in a good mood, so I'll give you the clue instead.

*You don't have to have a PowerBook the first few months of your freshman year.*

Trust me. I'm doing just fine with my iMac, and I'd do just fine with it for the foreseeable future. I decided to hold out for new PowerBooks, and my 15" is shipping Tuesday.

So bring your current computer to school with you. If you share a computer with your parents, that's a slightly different problem. If your college has decent computer labs and you're not fully addicted to Internet access, you'll be fine with that.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by mvc
Hmm, less than stunning news. Assuming the top G5 Powerbook debuts with say a 90nm 2GHz single processor, any thoughts how would that compare speed wise with say a 2.0GHz Centrino, which presumably will be available by then. Will they still be in the game?

I've seen news that the Pentium-M compares clock for clock with the G5. So we'll be tied with them.

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by vrapan
Sorry to point it out to you but VPC is not made to run all your expensive PC software on a Mac with the speed that a current PC would. VPC is made to run the occasional PC program on the Mac if you have to. Runnin all your PC software on a Mac through VPC beats the purpose of buying a Mac which is to use Mac OS X as your OS. If you want a pretty laptop to run your PC software I bet you can find several PC manufacturers with a decent looks. If I were you I wouldn't spend 3000 on a Mac and run XP through VPC on it. You get all the problems of the XP plus the reduced performace of an emulator.

And just in case you don't know that yet VPC is not compatible with G5 and I haven't heard MS having plans to make it compatible.

So buy a Mac if you are going to use the single most important thing that makes it a Mac: The OS X

1. I'm well aware that VPC wasn't going to be that fast on a Mac. After all it is emulating a CPU. However my point was that I'd expect at least something decent in terms of performance. The performance on the 17” PB wasn’t all that great but it wasn’t totally terrible. Rough guess. It felt like a 133-200Mhz system. If the performance could be increased by say 30-40% I’d be happy. I believe a G5 could do this. Yes I have no hard evidence to support this. But a jacked up system bus and a 1.6Ghz chip I believe would allow me to have the best of both worlds.

2. Yes I know that MS has yet to release a version of VPC that works on a G5. I expect that sometime next year this problem will be rectified. MS has stated that they are working on the problem. I'm guessing they will fix it but take their sweet time doing so. Even if its next fall I could live without running apps on my PowerBook as long as I KNOW its coming.

A lot of my post is based on pure speculation but unfortunately that is all we have to go on right now. :(

You state the most important part of the thing that makes the Mac a Mac is the OS. I don't agree. I believe its the entire package is what makes what Apple puts out unique in the computer industry. The hardware and the software. Right now if I didn't have Windows software to run I would have plunked down 3 grand on the new 17” PB’s last week. But I can’t and won’t until I know for certain I can run VPC at a decent speed. Unfortunately I can only wait so long and a year isn’t an option. 1/2 of next year is. I want a laptop in my hands by July of 2004. Whether or not that is a PC or a Mac is up to apple and just how good their development team is.

[macphoria]

G5 PowerBook by end of 2004? That's too long of a wait! Although that will certainly give PowerBook little room for at least one more update. Possibly with Motorola 7457 G4. Or maybe it will be IBM 750vx?!

[tizza]

Well that doesn't make me feel so bad about going out and buying my new G4 PB - I wonder if there will be a 64-bit OS by the time the G5 PB's come out?? I guess that's where it's all slowly heading ...

[arvidvdb]

Hard to make anything of these kinds of comments, as we don't know the questions.
imagine;

"Are you working on a G5 PB?"
"Yes, we are"
"Can you give us a release-date?"
"No can do"
"This Year?"
"Nope"
"Next year?"
"Well, by the end of next year we'd certainly hope to have them out yes..
and would you now please stop digging?"
"Uhm, ok"

who knows?

[ThomasJefferson]

Well, I want to hold up a sign that says, "I told you so." Considering what they have to pack inside a powerbook. I'd next year - late next year - would be optimistic.

The current crop is great, if I was not about to buy a new car, I wouldn't hesitate to drop the bucks on an alu-book.

[buseman]

This is not surprising at all. The G4 also took 18 months to make it into a portable.

[crees!]

Originally posted by macphoria
G5 PowerBook by end of 2004? That's too long of a wait!

So I take it you were all saying this when the G4 came out for the Powermacs and raised hell about "why not the PBs too!"... Remember it was a year later when they introduced the G4 to the Powerbooks?

Don't be so greedy.

[Mr. MacPhisto]

I really think that Apple is being overly conservative right now about public statements. Remember that until recently Steve and crew never gave any hint as to what was happening. Just like his 3GHZ projection, I have a feeling this side comment is more conservative. I think both are "worst-case" scenarios and we'll see them achieved earlier.

I really think there is a strong possibility that we'll see dual-3GHZ G5s announced at MWSF (and I have very good reason to believe this) with the possibility of G5 Powerbooks coming then too (this depends highly on IBM's production @ 60nm, which may begin by the end of the year.

Apple is just playing it safe after getting bitten by Motorola with the G4 - I think they don't want to disappoint their customers by giving them a rigid timeline. This also means that they might blow your expectations away. With this comment from Steve, how would you feel if Apple introduced the G5 Powerbook in January? You'd be amazed by their speed in bringing it.

[jouster]

Originally posted by crees!
Apple/OSX/IBM
quote:
Or you could just buy the g4 and be happy, knowing full well that the existance of a faster laptop is irrelevant as your G4 does what you need it to do anyway.


Well said. That has to be the brightest, most intelligent statement I've heard yet. Is this the start of something positive!? I sure hope so.

Y'know, I used to think that way as well: after all, what's the big deal/ most of us (especially the students) have no need for a 64 bit 2Ghz or more laptop - after all, Word'll run just as well on my TiBook 400!

But then I got to thinking: I don't NEED a nice house - a studio appartment would do! I don't NEED to eat in restaurants every so often - home cooked food would do!

And so on and so on. Point is, I don't see the big deal about people stating they want a G5 laptop for college. You shouldn't have to provide a reason for wanting something. It is perfectly acceptable to want the latest and greatest just because you can.

Sure, it may not be the most important thing in the world - it's just a computer, right? But given that for most of us here, computing is a hobby we enjoy, using need or lack of it as a reason for buying something seems to me kinda pointless.

[MacRETARD]

I think apple will have a G5 powerbook as soon as IBM gets them on a 90nm process. If I was to bet money I would bet 6 months from now running at about 1.6 - 2ghz.

If I remember correctly IBM is going to have to move to a smaller chip to get much past 2 ghz and Steve already said 3 ghz by the end of the summer.

Now if it was true that they wouldnt be out until the end of 04 then no one would buy towards the end of the year right? Just like if he said they would be out in 6 months it would kill sales now. I think he is trying to make sure he doesnt kill sales but also making sure people dont lose confidence in Apples ability to make a g5 laptop.

[mvc]

Originally posted by Mr. MacPhisto
Apple is just playing it safe after getting bitten by Motorola with the G4 - I think they don't want to disappoint their customers by giving them a rigid timeline. This also means that they might blow your expectations away. With this comment from Steve, how would you feel if Apple introduced the G5 Powerbook in January? You'd be amazed by their speed in bringing it.

To quote Agent Mulder:
"I want to believe"

[murak]

Darn... Apple really has problems with getting new hardware out fast. We waited TO long for the PM G5, we waited TO long for the new PB (which wasn´t what we all hoped for) and I´m pretty darn sure that I will wait TO long for my "prechues" iBook update with Gobi onboard. I think I will go and read a book instead of these rumor pages, this is not good for my health. I´ll come back by cristmas and see how things are going.

(see u guys to morrow :p)

[crees!]

Originally posted by murak
... We waited TO long ... we waited TO long for the new PB ...wait TO long

That's too many TO's which should be TOO ;)

[vancenase]

given the sporadic release of PB to this point (they occur within a certain spacing from each other), did anyone really expect them to come out with something 'relatively' soon?

[jrv3034]

I really think they're doing it the right way. Don't rush the PowerBook G5 just to satisfy the masses... We finally have a Mac worthy of the name G5, the Power Mac. If power's what you want, you can get it right now, in the form of a desktop. I have never thought of laptops as serious power tools. They're MOBILE tools, allowing you to do your work away from your desk, to a certain degree. But anyone who wants to do serious work (video editing, graphics, 3D, complex math, you get a desktop. Period. Anyone who has ONLY a laptop generally uses it for lighter stuff (word processing, email, internet, spreadsheets, music).

Sure, there are many PC "laptops" that use desktop Intel procs & have RAID drives and that kind of stuff, but honestly, does anybody actually lug these 10 pound "portables" around? And if so, is it just to play Unreal at a LAN party?

Notebooks are for mobility, desktops are for real power users. It's just not going to change. So, Apple, take your time making the G5 PowerBook, and make it unbelievably droolworthy, stable, and berautiful, because as much as I want it to completely obliterate anything on the Wintel market, I don't believe it is necessary right now. The 15" and 17" seem pretty powerful for what laptops are designed to do, and I'm sure would satisfy any of us until next year's revisions.

Just my ramblings.;)

[panphage]

Originally posted by macphoria
G5 PowerBook by end of 2004? That's too long of a wait! Although that will certainly give PowerBook little room for at least one more update. Possibly with Motorola 7457 G4. Or maybe it will be IBM 750vx?!

Well, the current powerbooks contain a chip that is identical to the 7457 with the exception of L3 cache support, so what's your point?

To the VPC guy: There is absolutely no point whatsoever in getting a mac until you are prepared to buy mac-native versions of MOST of your software. If you have a couple of extremely important apps that are windows-only and you can deal with how bad they run under emulation, go for it. But as much as I love my Cube, an Intel-based notebook is an infinitely better machine for running windows apps. What applications are we talking about?

[macphoria]

So I take it you were all saying this when the G4 came out for the Powermacs and raised hell about "why not the PBs too!"... Remember it was a year later when they introduced the G4 to the Powerbooks?

Don't be so greedy.
Aw come on. It was long enough of a wait for G5 to come out. Let me be greedy.

[macphoria]

Well, the current powerbooks contain a chip that is identical to the 7457 with the exception of L3 cache support, so what's your point?
My point is already stated in your comment. Current chip is 7447 without L3 Cache. If they are to come out with yet another G4 PowerBook, they'll need to do something to boost its performance. Clockspeed update for starters, and possibly L3 Cache to give it little extra juice.

[dongmin]

Arn, given that the G5 PowerBook is the next hot topic of discussion, maybe it'll be useful to do a .09 micron process 970 rumor roundup to get a better sense of when they'll be ready. It seems like the discussion of the 970/980 roadmap has completely dried up. Any news from your IBM sources?

[Steven1621]

a year seems a bit idealistc to get the g5 in the pb. there are some major cooling issues to address, but i would never doubt apple.

before we get the rumors started all over again, don't place too much weight into the statement.

[Photorun]

I'm with ThomasJefferson (that sounds odd) as I was the person trying to quash the hype of the G5 camp pre Paris Expo, to no avail. People don't seem to get how long it takes to move technology from A to B, regardless of the whole "heat issue" debate, it just wasn't going to happen, as I had tried to get across, and didn't.

I was regardless optimistic or hopeful that we may see the G5 Powerbook by second quarter 2004, fourth was really bite. Does anyone know what the top out is of the 7447/7445? If I recall something from MOSR and ThinkSecret it's 1.6 maybe at best. Eeek!

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by Steven1621
a year seems a bit idealistc to get the g5 in the pb. there are some major cooling issues to address, but i would never doubt apple.

This is the thing I really want to know. Expecting a G5 in 4th quarter of this year was ridiculous. Is 1st half of 2004 still ridiculous or can it be done? :confused:

[FlamDrag]

This timeline seems about right to me. It's only a matter of time before the G5 is in powerbooks in some form or another.

I wouldn't be shocked at all to see another G4 revision. 1.42, 1.5 or so. I wouldn't expect a 1.6 unless the first G5 powerbook is at least a 1.8.

[robotrenegade]

A year isn't to long to wait. I know I'm going to get one(17 model) and get rid of my tower.

[cubist]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
... I want a laptop in my hands by July of 2004. Whether or not that is a PC or a Mac is up to apple and just how good their development team is.

Piffle. If speed of running Windows programs is all that's important to you, don't bother waiting, go buy a Dell.

Personally, I doubt Microsoft will bother making VPC work on the G5. Since the DOJ abdicated its responsibility to the public, Microsoft is dropping any pretense of supporting competition in the industry.

Also, I'm doubtful that Apple will be able to get G5 Powerbooks in people's hands by year-end 2004.

BTW, the merged threads in this thread seem to be bollixed. When you click Next, it goes from page 1 to page 4.

[primalman]

Even though I wold love a PBG5, I am not too put out by the idea that they may not be available until late next year. It takes time, the PBG4 did not come out until nearly 18 months after the PMG4.

My predictions:

One more PBG4 update to a range of 1.25-1.6 GHZ, 200 MHZ bus around March/April of next year. It will also include the L3 in the 15" and 17", using the 7557, 12" will stay 7547.

PMG5 will hit up to 2.5 GHZ by Feb/March and 3 GHZ by August/September 04.

PBG5 out and about by October/November 04, starting at 1.8 GHZ, and up to 2.4 GHZ. I understand the the G5 does not need the bus to be 1/2 processor clock, just that it can. Variations I have heard are bus multipliers of 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 6 [correct me if I am mistaken please]. So, if so, then if you have an 800 MHZ effective FSB, use a multiplier of 3, you get 2.4 GHZ, albeit reduced memory bandwidth.

Maybe I am just drunk?

My 1 GHZ 15" SUperDrive TiBook will last me until then.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by cubist
Piffle. If speed of running Windows programs is all that's important to you, don't bother waiting, go buy a Dell.

Personally, I doubt Microsoft will bother making VPC work on the G5. Since the DOJ abdicated its responsibility to the public, Microsoft is dropping any pretense of supporting competition in the industry.

Microsoft is not going to kill VPC. Every sale of VPC is another sale of a Windows-based computer in the books. That's all Microsoft wants.

[jouster]

Originally posted by primalman
One more PBG4 update to a range of 1.25-1.6 GHZ, 200 MHZ bus around March/April of next year. It will also include the L3 in the 15" and 17", using the 7557, 12" will stay 7547.



This presupposes that Motorola will have the smarts and the incentive to keep bumping the G4 without the boost of PowerMac sales - which, don't forget, was Apple's biggest selling line last year.

MOT's record with the G4s is spotty at best, what with all the rumors about the 1.42 being an overclock job. Do you think MOT will make 1.6 Ghz G4's?

[Freg3000]

Originally posted by primalman

PBG5 out and about by October/November 04, starting at 1.8 GHZ, and up to 2.4 GHZ. I understand the the G5 does not need the bus to be 1/2 processor clock, just that it can. Variations I have heard are bus multipliers of 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 6 [correct me if I am mistaken please]. So, if so, then if you have an 800 MHZ effective FSB, use a multiplier of 3, you get 2.4 GHZ, albeit reduced memory bandwidth.


Yes, the bus does not have to be 1/2 the clock speed. It does come in many variants (although I do not know all of them). Apple just elected to use the largest ratio in order to gets the best performance.

[macphoria]

This presupposes that Motorola will have the smarts and the incentive to keep bumping the G4 without the boost of PowerMac sales - which, don't forget, was Apple's biggest selling line last year.

MOT's record with the G4s is spotty at best, what with all the rumors about the 1.42 being an overclock job. Do you think MOT will make 1.6 Ghz G4's?
Or maybe Motorola's G4 will be replaced by IBM's 750vx!

[jouster]

Originally posted by macphoria
Or maybe Motorola's G4 will be replaced by IBM's 750vx!

I guess, but isn't that still effectively a G3? Wouldn't it be hard to stop people seeing a move like that as a step back, whether it is or not?

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by macphoria
Or maybe Motorola's G4 will be replaced by IBM's 750vx!

Which will, much like the Gobi, be released, without Altivec.

No. The G5 will be out next summer. Early summer. We're in for a long wait, just like we were between the last TiBook and the current 15". But what would be the point of redesigning for the 750vx and then again for the G5? I'd rather have the G5 earlier.

[macphoria]

I guess, but isn't that still effectively a G3? Wouldn't it be hard to stop people seeing a move like that as a step back, whether it is or not?
Well, people say G4 is supposed to be G3 with AltiVec. And 750vx is supposed to be upgraded G3 with AltiVec/SIMD. So that kind of qualifies as G4.

[mvc]

Originally posted by jouster
MOT's record with the G4s is spotty at best, what with all the rumors about the 1.42 being an overclock job. Do you think MOT will make 1.6 Ghz G4's?

I think that depends on what happens with Motorola now the CEO has resigned (http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/business/6818696.htm) (About time too). I suppose there might be a few shakeouts to come, perhaps the Semiconductor division will be revitalised, but I think it more likely to closedown/be sold/scale back over the next couple of years. This guy has done a pretty crappy job overall by all reports.

[jouster]

Phil, do you think there will be a form factor change for the G5s?

I guess signs point to them staying the same - after all the TiBooks lasted for a while, and why change it twice in quick succession?

*sigh* I just don't like the Aluminum as much as the Titanium......

Edit for: stupidity

[bluedalmatian]

That's too many TO's which should be TOO

At least he said "go and read" rather than the ugly and lazy "go read" that you lot say.

Why not just drop the go all together.

"il get xxx" rather than "i'll go get xxx" takes even less effort and sounds better.


right thats my rant over. sorry to get off topic. :)

[macphoria]

Which will, much like the Gobi, be released, without Altivec.

No. The G5 will be out next summer. Early summer. We're in for a long wait, just like we were between the last TiBook and the current 15". But what would be the point of redesigning for the 750vx and then again for the G5? I'd rather have the G5 earlier.
I agree. I'd rather see G5 in next PowerBook revision than another G4 revision.

But should another round of G4 PowerBook revision take place, I kind of want to see this mysterious 750vx in action. See how IBM's design compares to Motorola's.

[primalman]

Originally posted by jouster
This presupposes that Motorola will have the smarts and the incentive to keep bumping the G4 without the boost of PowerMac sales - which, don't forget, was Apple's biggest selling line last year.

MOT's record with the G4s is spotty at best, what with all the rumors about the 1.42 being an overclock job. Do you think MOT will make 1.6 Ghz G4's?

I do think that MOT is smart, it has just been managed by jack-asses over the last few years.

MOT does have incentive to keep going with LOW-POWER G4 chips -- the embedded market, where they are darlings. [Remember Cisco and other big networking gear companies use G4s in their big iron type stufff]

BUT, I do not think that MHZ will ramp up like it is expected to with the 970/G5. IBM has more to gain by moving that along, they are using it in their own servers, notably Linux Blades, which they can sell a gazillion of. MOT is more concerned with LOW WATTS over MHZ, which will mean slower chips but longer battery.

I expect the 7557/47 PowerBooks will have some of that voodoo that is overclocking, but is not "really" overclocking. [lol]

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by jouster
Phil, do you think there will be a form factor change for the G5s?

I guess signs point to it - after all the TiBooks lasted for a while, and why change it twice in quick succession?

*sigh* I just don't like the Aluminum as much as the Titanium......

The Ti is better-looking--if you wanted to put it in a glass case and leave it untouched. Otherwise, you run the risk of paint chips and the like.

I think Apple will change the industrial design for the G5's. I don't know what they'll do or how they'll do it though. For usability reasons, the holey aluminum look won't work.

We'll see.

[crees!]

Originally posted by bluedalmatian
At least he said "go and read" rather than the ugly and lazy "go read" that you lot say.

lot say? I don't say lot? What mean that? Geez, oh.. confuse already me

[primalman]

Originally posted by macphoria
Well, people say G4 is supposed to be G3 with AltiVec. And 750vx is supposed to be upgraded G3 with AltiVec/SIMD. So that kind of qualifies as G4.

The G4 is not just a G3 with Altivec slapped on. If I remember my history right:

The G3 was a major leap forward. It was built upon the foundations of the PowerPC 603, a nice, hardworking chip that made it's way into many PowerBooks [603e]. It offered significant inprovement over previous PowerPC chips.

The G4, while providing many improvements over the G3 [Altivec instruction set for complex floating point math], was built upon the PowerPC 604 [and 604e], a more power hungry desktop processor, that did not make it into any PowerBooks. We are lucky that Motorola [the only maker of the G4] was able to refine it into the powerful, effiecient chip it is now.

[Oh, www.everymac.com]

[macphoria]

The G4 is not just a G3 with Altivec slapped on. If I remember my history right:

The G3 was a major leap forward. It was built upon the foundations of the PowerPC 603, a nice, hardworking chip that made it's way into many PowerBooks [603e]. It offered significant inprovement over previous PowerPC chips.

The G4, while providing many improvements over the G3 [Altivec instruction set for complex floating point math], was built upon the PowerPC 604 [and 604e], a more power hungry desktop processor, that did not make it into any PowerBooks. We are lucky that Motorola [the only maker of the G4] was able to refine it into the powerful, effiecient chip it is now.
Yes this is true. But what would you call G4 without AltiVec?

[Centris 650]

As it's been said in previous posts...we shouldn't read too much into this. Obviously if Steve-O was going to saying something about the G5 being released he'd give a vague distant date. Why? Imagine if he had said "By the next upgrade." or "1st Quarter 2004." etc. What do you think would happen to these powerbook sales? I wouldn't be too surprised if it was misinformation. However, if it is true then I wouldn't be surprised if Apple didn't update the powerbooks again until the G5's. Though I don't think they could get away with a 10 month lull again.

[MyLeftNut]

The one thing I have learned being on these and other forums is that the development times for new products seem to be increasing more and more regardless of the impatience of the true believers.

For Steve to say what he did, simply implies that for Apple to put the G5 in the PB it is dependant on a number of factors not just IBM. Im sure the Apple engineers are best of class, (I love the Alubook styling) but managing to get the kind of technology (new or otherwise) into a box the size of what they have is simply amazing.

I would imagine that with such a long development time Apple would not be sitting on its haunches and leaving matters to be...fuel cells, water cooling other technology may even make their first showing. I cant wait. I have an old reliable G3 Beige Box that has served me well, my next computer will be a Mac powerbook, what ever that is.

Sorry for the long post, I think people just need to be a little less eager in their expectations, they do you an injustice.

Ooh, think about how Panther will maul Longhorn by the time it comes out 04-05....now thats what Im talkin about...

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by MyLeftNut
Ooh, think about how Panther will maul Longhorn by the time it comes out 04-05....now thats what Im talkin about...

Panther? By the time Longhorn comes out, it'll be going head-to-head with 10.4!

[primalman]

Originally posted by macphoria
Yes this is true. But what would you call G4 without AltiVec?

Answer: A G4 without Altivec.

LOL, just kidding.

But I would not call it a G3. These are generation signifiers, there were other things under the hood, such as support for L3 and so on.

I think that The G3 and G4 were different enough to mark the generational gap.

Let's move on, but thanks for the discourse!

[macphoria]

As it's been said in previous posts...we shouldn't read too much into this. Obviously if Steve-O was going to saying something about the G5 being released he'd give a vague distant date. Why? Imagine if he had said "By the next upgrade." or "1st Quarter 2004." etc. What do you think would happen to these powerbook sales? I wouldn't be too surprised if it was misinformation. However, if it is true then I wouldn't be surprised if Apple didn't update the powerbooks again until the G5's. Though I don't think they could get away with a 10 month lull again.
Good point. Also, Steve might be trying to give themselves enough breathing room until G5 comes out. That way, if development goes well, they can introduce G5 PowerBook next summer and make everyone happy. And if their development goes slow, they can introduce G5 PowerBook at the end of next year and everyone is still happy.

This is better than getting people all optimistic and unable to deliver.

[jouster]

True, misplaced optimism is rife on Apple rumors sites, but that said, IBM did deliver more than they had promised with the G5.

So maybe they can do the process shrink in less time than we might think.

[singletrack]

I may be stating the obvious for some people but the view held that Apple can't come out with product y just because product x has just come out is bogus. That was widely used as the reason the PB G5 didn't come out at Paris and now we've got the usual mob saying 'I told you so'. Sorry, that's still a lame arguement.

Most chip manufacturers and I'm sure Apple as well run parallel development teams. The 90nm process G5 due sampling in November wasn't started by IBM by the same team that did the 130nm process just after they taped out the first G5s. Nope, they'd have had two teams working on it and quite probably a third team working on the 980 and a fourth on 65nm or whatever. That's what 3 billion R&D budget buys you.

Apple wouldn't have started on the PB G5 just after the PM G5 or current powerbooks. Projects don't run consecutively like that. I'd be very surprised if Apple didn't start work on a PB G5 18 months ago when they started working with IBM and it wasn't in the design goals all along but it would seem there's work still to do and a shipping 90nm G5 would be a prerequisite. Apple are still going after low power and low noise in their laptops when I'm sure they could have come out with a laptop G5 if they'd made them as hot and noisy as a PC. They may also have reigned back on the Powerbook just to get the PowerMac out the door. G4 PowerMac sales were drying up and Apple were losing their traditional market because of poor PowerMac performance remember.

At the same time, Motorola are claiming they'll have 90nm in 2004 and 74x7 chips at 2Ghz sometime in 2004 also... at 10W. There's still life in the G4. One more Powerbook revision perhaps and then the design trickles down to the iBook G4 or IBMs 750 VX comes out which is so far only a rumour for Summer 04. Either would be really nice in the iBook and for that matter a PowerBook in March.

[Flynnstone]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Pentium M based system that is expected to have 1MB of L2 cache all on a 90NM chip process.

I think 90nm is a way off yet, still lots of power problems.

Until now anything Intel releases I take with a grain of salt. The Pentium M is an entirely different breed of cat. It’s actually a “gasp” decent chip.

My understanding is the its not that much different from a P III.

Hence the reason I’ve been sitting on my thumbs waiting for a G5 PowerBook. PS- Yes I'm aware I haven't tried VPC on the new PowerBooks. Hears hoping its faster but I'm not going to hold my breath.

VPC doesn't work on G5. Rumor is that it will be a year before it does.
Perhaps spend as little as possible to get the features/speed you need for the present and save the rest for a Mac. Maybe buy a used Mac, to keep up the OS envy :D

[nagromme]

No doubt he's being smartly conservative--even LATER than 2004 is possible--but summer is still likely.

But I have serious doubts about early 2004 now.

Which means I can probably stop agonizing and buy a nice PBG4 for now. Relief!

(PS isn't Longhorn now even more delayed according to MS, tentatively on track for 2006? That puts it head to head with 10.6, THREE major upgrades BEYOND Panther!)

[Wonder Boy]

Originally posted by Nutzoids
A year away isn't that long if you think about it. It's just one more Quite Revision...maybe just a speed bump. Next year (2004) should be the year for the Desktop. G5 PowerMac hits 3GHz...then 2005 is the year of the Laptop again...2GHz G5 PowerBooks...1.6 G5 for iBooks and iMacs...I can't expect too much more this year...Apple really out did themselves!

Way to Go Steve!

:D


you really are nutzoid. i think steve has pissed of more people than he made happy this year considering the delays and the such.

[Flynnstone]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
I've seen news that the Pentium-M compares clock for clock with the G5. So we'll be tied with them.

That sounds very reasonable.
The processor alone doens't make a computer system.

Need to compare OSes. Windows XP vs Apple OS X.
Biased but, advantage to Mac

Compare extras, SSEx vs Altivec.
My opinion , advantage to Mac.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by Wonder Boy
you really are nuzoid. i think steve has pissed of more people than he made happy this year considering the delays and the such.

That wasn't Steve, that was the rumormongers and their constant "PowerBooks on Tuesday" reports, every week, since May. It was DigiTimes and their original (bad) rumor. Ultimately, one has only the Vatican to blame, because, had they not persecuted scientists such as Galileo centuries ago, the scientific advances that were held back would have happened, with the net result being G5 PowerBooks two years ago.

[Rincewind42]

Originally posted by primalman
The G4 is not just a G3 with Altivec slapped on. If I remember my history right:

The G3 was a major leap forward. It was built upon the foundations of the PowerPC 603, a nice, hardworking chip that made it's way into many PowerBooks [603e]. It offered significant inprovement over previous PowerPC chips.

The G4, while providing many improvements over the G3 [Altivec instruction set for complex floating point math], was built upon the PowerPC 604 [and 604e], a more power hungry desktop processor, that did not make it into any PowerBooks. We are lucky that Motorola [the only maker of the G4] was able to refine it into the powerful, effiecient chip it is now.


Still not quite. The G3 is a descendent of the 603. And a darn good improvement it was. The G4 was an evolution of the G3 design, not the 604 design, but also incorporating Altivec and stronger floating point performance. Part of the confusion comes from the fact that the G4s enhanced floating point unit is similar to the 604's floating point unit. The G4 brought many improvements to the design, but unfortunately Motorola suffered a brain drain at it's Somerset facility (mostly to Intel at that) along with the declining economy, dooming the G4 to the fate that it has now.

[Rincewind42]

Originally posted by jrv3034
I really think they're doing it the right way. Don't rush the PowerBook G5 just to satisfy the masses... We finally have a Mac worthy of the name G5, the Power Mac. If power's what you want, you can get it right now, in the form of a desktop. I have never thought of laptops as serious power tools. They're MOBILE tools, allowing you to do your work away from your desk, to a certain degree. But anyone who wants to do serious work (video editing, graphics, 3D, complex math, you get a desktop. Period. Anyone who has ONLY a laptop generally uses it for lighter stuff (word processing, email, internet, spreadsheets, music).

Sure, there are many PC "laptops" that use desktop Intel procs & have RAID drives and that kind of stuff, but honestly, does anybody actually lug these 10 pound "portables" around? And if so, is it just to play Unreal at a LAN party?

Notebooks are for mobility, desktops are for real power users. It's just not going to change. So, Apple, take your time making the G5 PowerBook, and make it unbelievably droolworthy, stable, and berautiful, because as much as I want it to completely obliterate anything on the Wintel market, I don't believe it is necessary right now. The 15" and 17" seem pretty powerful for what laptops are designed to do, and I'm sure would satisfy any of us until next year's revisions.

I don't buy that. If only because I am a power user that has nothing but my PowerBook (alas no longer top of the line). Yes, I could have gotten a more powerful desktop, but the PowerBook is more compact and infinitely more portable. And there are many that agree, or Apple wouldn't be selling 42% of it's computers in the form of notebooks. Oddly enough, many of my power user friends own more notebooks than desktops, and up until recently their notebooks were more powerful (only because they are ordering G5s now). Oh, and my PowerBook G4 is great for LAN parties =).

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by Rincewind42
The G4 brought many improvements to the design, but unfortunately Motorola suffered a brain drain at it's Somerset facility (mostly to Intel at that) along with the declining economy, dooming the G4 to the fate that it has now.

Somerset was the joint IBM/Motorola facility. At Somerset, at least originally, the engineers didn't know which company their coworkers were from. Somerset broke up in 1998 due to differences between IBM and Motorola (the former wanting to implement copper interconnects, the latter wanting to implement AltiVec).

[Flynnstone]

Originally posted by macphoria
Yes this is true. But what would you call G4 without AltiVec?

a lame G3 :D

A G4 has deeper pipelines then the G3, so at the same clock rate, the G3 has less cost due to a branch mis-prediction. uh .. faster.

[mim]

Originally posted by jouster
Y'know, I used to think that way as well: after all, what's the big deal/ most of us (especially the students) have no need for a 64 bit 2Ghz or more laptop - after all, Word'll run just as well on my TiBook 400!

But then I got to thinking: I don't NEED a nice house - a studio appartment would do! I don't NEED to eat in restaurants every so often - home cooked food would do!

And so on and so on. Point is, I don't see the big deal about people stating they want a G5 laptop for college. You shouldn't have to provide a reason for wanting something. It is perfectly acceptable to want the latest and greatest just because you can.

Sure, it may not be the most important thing in the world - it's just a computer, right? But given that for most of us here, computing is a hobby we enjoy, using need or lack of it as a reason for buying something seems to me kinda pointless.

I think the point may be more like "I want to eat at that expensive restaurant but they don't serve mustard with their chicken, so I'm not going to eat at all!" All alternatives to the ideal are NOT equal.

In the end you have to decide if you'll starve until the shippment of mustard arrives, or eat humble pie (so to speak).

[Flynnstone]

Lets look at the bigger picture. Pro lines and consumer lines.
Assume Motorola is on the way out the door.
Presently the Pro lines have G5 or G4 processors.
Consumer lines are generally G3, but some G4s without cache.
Altivec is a big advantage to Apple.
Need to differentiate between Pro lines and Consumer Lines.
so ...

Pro Lines (in the future)
Power Macs - G5 (presently, 980 or like in future)
PowerBooks - G5 (in the future)
xServes - G5 (in the future)

Consumer lines?
Well.. presently mostly G3s, good IBM makes them, but no AltiVec. Can't use G5s because it would confuse with Proline. But can't announce IBM G3+altivec either, poor marketting, confusion with proline. But with Pro Lines all G5 ...

So ... I'll go out on a limb, sometime next year Apple with IBM will announce a processor with not quite G5 performance, but better than G3 or G4, with Altivec and a MUCH faster front side bus speed or ... my preference a on processor memory controller.
Focus on cost effectiveness for consumer lines.

[Wonder Boy]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
That wasn't Steve, that was the rumormongers and their constant "PowerBooks on Tuesday" reports, every week, since May. It was DigiTimes and their original (bad) rumor. Ultimately, one has only the Vatican to blame, because, had they not persecuted scientists such as Galileo centuries ago, the scientific advances that were held back would have happened, with the net result being G5 PowerBooks two years ago.

i think you missed my point. i was more arguing against the "apple out did themselves" and yeah steve lines. I say bah to apples achievments (in my opinion the should all have been released atleast 2 months before they all were, moto's fault or not) and enough of steve's mindgames. they're really pissing me (and many other macheads i know) off.

[Phil Of Mac]

Flynnstone, I disagree.

Let's look at Apple's product lineup in early 1999:

Pro:
Power Mac G3
PowerBook G3 (high-end models)

Consumer:
iMac (G3)
PowerBook G3 (low-end models)

See? Same processor across the line.

The current product line has:

Pro:
Power Mac G5
PowerBook G4

Consumer:
iMac G4
eMac G4
iBook G3

Sounds like the G4 across the line, except for the system using a brand-new processor and the iBook. We can blame the lack of G4's there on Motorola's shortages.

Apple wants to use one processor across the line, did it with the G3, couldn't do it with the G4, and, I predict, will do it with, if not the G5, the G6. (That's because I also predict the G6 will come soon.)

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by Wonder Boy
i think you missed my point. i was more arguing against the "apple out did themselves" and yeah steve lines. I say bah to apples achievments (in my opinion the should all have been released atleast 2 months before they all were, moto's fault or not) and enough of steve's mindgames. they're really pissing me (and many other macheads i know) off.

Apple released quality products within a long yet reasonable timeframe. Steve Jobs has, in general, been the best CEO in Apple's history. He is a genius. The latest PowerBook G4 is, for him, an underachievement, but Steve is nonetheless, great.

[Wonder Boy]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Apple released quality products within a long yet reasonable timeframe. Steve Jobs has, in general, been the best CEO in Apple's history. He is a genius. The latest PowerBook G4 is, for him, an underachievement, but Steve is nonetheless, great.

Point taken.

[yujini]

Until now anything Intel releases I take with a grain of salt. The Pentium M is an entirely different breed of cat. It’s actually a “gasp” decent chip.

Originally posted by Flynnstone



My understanding is the its not that much different from a P III.




No way. The centrino chipline was the first processor from intel
that was built just for the laptop lines. Has a much higher CPI than any pentium processor that is out (probably even more than AMD?). And if you do see the benchmarks for a 1.3ghz centrino and 1.25/1.33 al powerbooks, you would see that the G4 cpu's lack much power compared to the 1.3ghz centrino. The 1.25/1.33ghz g4 cpu is about the same as a 1.0 ghz centrino.

The only reason why the new powerbooks do so well in games is because the radeon 9600.

Where did 'not much different from a P3' come from?

Though I don't like Intel that much (I prefer AMD over intel), the pentium M (centrino) processors have impressed me quite a lot.

[primalman]

Originally posted by Flynnstone
Lets look at the bigger picture. Pro lines and consumer lines.
Assume Motorola is on the way out the door.
Presently the Pro lines have G5 or G4 processors.
Consumer lines are generally G3, but some G4s without cache.
Altivec is a big advantage to Apple.
Need to differentiate between Pro lines and Consumer Lines.
so ...

Pro Lines (in the future)
Power Macs - G5 (presently, 980 or like in future)
PowerBooks - G5 (in the future)
xServes - G5 (in the future)

Consumer lines?
Well.. presently mostly G3s, good IBM makes them, but no AltiVec. Can't use G5s because it would confuse with Proline. But can't announce IBM G3+altivec either, poor marketting, confusion with proline. But with Pro Lines all G5 ...

So ... I'll go out on a limb, sometime next year Apple with IBM will announce a processor with not quite G5 performance, but better than G3 or G4, with Altivec and a MUCH faster front side bus speed or ... my preference a on processor memory controller.
Focus on cost effectiveness for consumer lines.

Actually, if Apple's web site is to be taken as truth, it seems to me that the comsumer line is primarily G4 processor, with the only item in Apple's entire line a G3 being the iBook.

BTW, G3 + Altivec has been bebunked by IBM.

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by yujini


Where did 'not much different from a P3' come from?


I think its because there are remnants of the Mobile PIII core found in the Pentium M even though something like 70% of the chip was created from scratch. At least that’s what I got from reading an article on arstechnica a while back.

[revenuee]

Originally posted by Nutzoids
1.6 G5 for iBooks and iMacs...


Disclaimer : this is not an attack on Nutzoids in anyway, i just think it's an interesting point to bring up

G5 in iBooks and iMacs? eventually, yes

but that's a tough call, i mean it would make sence to make it 64 bit accross the board.

but a jump from G3 to G5? if they faze out motorola completly, yes: but i think i read an interview along the lines of; "Motorola will remain a big part of our company, but IBM will lead us into the future"

could see iBooks getting G4's first, aspecially since they're due for an update and i'm not sure how much more juice you can pump out of a G3.

order of importance as i see it





1. PoweBook's getting G5's, i mean we can already see that the mac community is craving them, and if Steve wants laptops to outsell desktops, Jonathan Ive and company gotta deliver.

1 or 2. X serve, this one is a tough call, but i think it's necessary to complement the G5 Tower with a G5 server, for all the high-end graphics guys to get they're rendering done fast. And lets face it, it's still that market that buys the most macs

3. The iMac/eMac, after they're done with the pro line, they're going to want to upgrade the consumer line. The iMacs just got a boost, so they're not going anywhere for a wile, the eMac hasn't been updated in a wile, but we can probably see a G4 boost soon.

4. Finally the iBook. This has bever been a priority for apple, atleast not in the past, and not even now - my case is that it's processor is now 2 generations behind. So since 1. they need an update, and 2. they won't out do the other machines, a G4 is not unlikely.

sorry if this post restates what others said, but in the time i was writing it, they're wasn't anything posted about this issue

[greenstork]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
2. Yes I know that MS has yet to release a version of VPC that works on a G5. I expect that sometime next year this problem will be rectified. MS has stated that they are working on the problem. I'm guessing they will fix it but take their sweet time doing so. Even if its next fall I could live without running apps on my PowerBook as long as I KNOW its coming.



An open source emulator for Windows on the G5 exists already from a company called Open OSX. Just because it's not deisgned by Virtual PC, doesn't men it doesn't do the same job. Check out Wintel 1.0.1 (http://openosx.com/wintel/index.html) that is fully compatible and optimized for the G5.

[greenstork]

Originally posted by jrv3034
I really think they're doing it the right way. Don't rush the PowerBook G5 just to satisfy the masses... We finally have a Mac worthy of the name G5, the Power Mac. If power's what you want, you can get it right now, in the form of a desktop. I have never thought of laptops as serious power tools. They're MOBILE tools, allowing you to do your work away from your desk, to a certain degree. But anyone who wants to do serious work (video editing, graphics, 3D, complex math, you get a desktop. Period. Anyone who has ONLY a laptop generally uses it for lighter stuff (word processing, email, internet, spreadsheets, music).


Amen! I for one am fed up hearing people complain about the lack of G5 PB's. Seriously, for anyone who really needs that power, get a desktop already. Somehow I doubt that 90% of the people complaining are going to actually be doing serious video rendering and heavy photoshop work that would neccesitate a G5.

You're talking about a difference of what, 20 seconds on a gaussian blur. Unless you cranking off 20-30 of these a day, will you even notice the difference? For that matter, if you are doing that much work, you are likely a professional and not stupid enough to attempt that type of workload with a LAPTOP in the first place.

I want a G5 laptop too. I wish the G4 laptop was an adequate desktop replacement. BUT IT IS NOT. It's a laptop, designed to be portable and not powerful. I still need my desktop and value it for what it does and value my new 12" PB for what it does. However, I would never presume to expect my 12" PB to do what I expect from my desktop and I would certainly not bitch and complain on this forum if it didn't.

Don't get me wrong. I am disappointed by Motorola and Apple's continued relationship with them but let's get real here. PB's are GREAT machines, outstanding laptops, and they run OSX. So Centrinos are faster, that's not what I buy a laptop for.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by greenstork
PB's are GREAT machines, outstanding laptops, and they run OSX. So Centrinos are faster, that's not what I buy a laptop for.

At least not until the PowerBook G5 is released.

[revenuee]

my defence to wanting a G5 powerbook is simple,

i don't upgrade often, and when i do i like to get new technology so that it lasts me a while

first computer was a 486 with win 3.1 (6 years)
second computer was a 400 mhz P2 with win 98 (2 years because i started working in video and got fead up with trying to get my equipment to work in windows so i switched to mac)
third computer switched to Mac with the release of 400 mhz G4 (4 years running)
fourth upgrade i hope to go portable just because i'm tired of being contained in 4 walls, so i'm waiting for a G5 powerbook so that i can have the 64 bit processor, for the next generation of software

i hear all you guys fed up with people wining about a lack of G5 powerbook. As far as i'm concerned my G4 400 with the specs i have in it, is fine for the kind of work flow i have

ie . wedding video or other special events, presentation/concept video's, and short film editing projects, along with photo manipulation/enhancments

i'de like to go portable so i can take it lectures for note taking, just as easily as i can do more "serious" work in a coffee shop, or on the deck in my backyard,

YES, the current G4 PB's will fit my needs perfectly, but when i do decide i want to upgrade to newer software, they may not be sufficient to run it.

I need a computer that will last me for atleast 4 years, maybe longer
since my current system suits me fine, i guess i'm stuck patiently waiting for the new G5 PB's

[kaneda]

G5 might comes out earlier then the end of Next Year. If it was true that Moto was the reason the new Powerbook was late. Then if I was Steve. I would get my engineers work 24 hours a day to release the new Powerbook beginning of next year with G5 chip...

maybe get a dual G4 Powerbook..:) I love Dual!

[panphage]

Originally posted by macphoria
My point is already stated in your comment. Current chip is 7447 without L3 Cache. If they are to come out with yet another G4 PowerBook, they'll need to do something to boost its performance. Clockspeed update for starters, and possibly L3 Cache to give it little extra juice.

Ok I can dig that. It sounded like the many comments that think the new powerbooks still have the 7455 in them, I think I came ofF snide there as a result and I apologize for that.

Personally, I think any L3 cache less than 2MB is not likely to improve performance given the 512MB L2. I'm not convinced adding 2MB L3 will be worth the power drain and added expense, but that's me. They can't just swap out a 7457, they'd have to lay out new motherboards, and that's another outlay of money on top of the L3 itself being expensive. Depends on how well moto does with clockspeed scaling and FSB I suppose. If Moto can't improve the chip any other way, Apple will prop it up with some L3.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by yujini
Has a much higher CPI than any pentium processor that is out (probably even more than AMD?).

I think you meant lower CPI (clocks per instruction)...

Your larger point is on though-- the Pentium M is a much better designed core. Intel's marketing had to eat a little crow and stop grandstanding on clock frequency...

[sparky76]

I am a gadget nut and would love a G5 PB, but what for?
I am a recent switcher, and have a G4 1GHz PB - quite fast enough at the moment (although faster folding would be nice).
It would be quite an engineering feat to put a G5 in a laptop this soon after desktop launch. Apple has caught Wintel in desktops. The PB's are as good and as fast as truly portable Wintel laptops, and it may take a while to get up to speed on laptops which are really desktop replacements (if Apple really wants into that market).
A G5 PB which is truly portable (long battery life and light weight) is worth waiting a little longer for, isn't it?

[Analog Kid]

If I had to guess, I'd say the "end of next year" comment was based on knowing there was another PBG4 update in the pipe...

6mos to the next PBG4, 6mos to the PBG5.

I'd also guess that the consumer lines will stay G4 until the G5 gets an appreciable core update-- call it the 980 or G6 or whatever, comes out (SMT?). They're consumer lines-- they don't need more than 4GB of addressable memory.


Mot has been talking up a dual core G4, which would sing in an iMac. IBM would probably boost the clock and bus speeds instead. Either path would be more than enough for amateur photo edits and iMovie. Notice that Apple has been breaking their software lines into consumer and pro along with the hardware? Not a coincidence, me thinks...

Apple's been trying to differentiate between pro and consumer lines for a while, and has been having a hard time of it since the G4 stalled. Now they can spread themselves out a bit more.

I expect that one of the results of ejecting their CEO will be the sale of Mot's Semiconductor Sector. Future G4's (32bit altivec, however you want to call them) will probably come from either ST Micro or IBM.

The steps I expect to be necessary before releasing a G5 PB are shrinking the G5 to 90nm, moving to DDR2 for power reasons, and spinning the system controller to cut the un-needed baggage and integrate more peripheral functions on chip (probably also going to 90nm). A year for this is not unreasonable (6 mos for protos, another 6 for tweaks and release).

It would be possible to get this done in 6mos if they rushed it, but it looks to me they're planning to do it right.

I'd still like to see separate desktop and portable CPUs, but I think that's more of a wish than a prediction...

The release of a G5 PB will not obsolete anything G4, just as Altivec has yet to obsolete the G3.

I fully expect to be using and happy with my GHz TiBook in 2 years.

I don't expect Apple to build a desktop-replacement luggable until their marketshare increases by a factor of 4. They've got enough segmentation in their product line. We may start to see more differentiation between the 15" and 17", but don't expect desktop performance.

If they made the PBs thicker, heavier and hotter, the number of complaints we'd see would far outstrip the "but I want a G5 laptop now" whining we're hearing today...

If you've got a fortune invested in Windows software, bang your head against the wall 3 times and go by a Wintel laptop. Don't buy a Dell-- your sins don't warrant it...

Ok, I think I hit the major themes... I'm going to bed.;)

[matznentosh]

People are tossing out casual comments about 90 nm chips and now 65 nm chips. Is Intel actually shipping a 90 nm chip? The best I could find was a June description of a 130 nm Celeron. So have they even started shipping the 90 size yet?

And this article

http://www.eetimes.com/semi/news/OEG20030807S0012

seems to say 65 nm is still pie in the sky. Earlier articles about this collaboration with IBM talked about 65 nm chips in 2005/6, but this article indicates that consortium has actually fallen apart.

So I don't see evidence of smaller chips anywhere soon at all. And as far as I know, 90 nm isn't even on the market yet.

The G5 powerbook is obviously waiting for the 90 nm chip, which is not off the assembly line yet by any means.

[The Grimace]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
1. I'm well aware that VPC wasn't going to be that fast on a Mac.

A large part of the problem is that VPC only emulates a ~200Mhz PII. So at some point the speed of the PPC proc is going to be irrelevant; PC software just ain't gonna run that fast. Also, since it emulates a low-end vid card, you will see a great deal of slow-down in the UI itself that may not have any bearing on the unseen speed of other operations (such as non-graphics-related math).

You are probably already aware of this; you sound as though you've done your homework. But I thought I'd throw it out there, just in case...

(tig)

[The Grimace]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Microsoft is not going to kill VPC. Every sale of VPC is another sale of a Windows-based computer in the books. That's all Microsoft wants.

No, but I'd wager that you won't be able to buy it WITHOUT a new copy of Windows. Which will leave those of us who ain't gonna EVER gonna buy XP (I'd go 2K instead) without an upgrade option. I use 5.x, by the way, with Win98SE.

(tig)

[The Grimace]

Originally posted by bluedalmatian
At least he said "go and read" rather than the ugly and lazy "go read" that you lot say.

Why not just drop the go all together.

"il get xxx" rather than "i'll go get xxx" takes even less effort and sounds better.


right thats my rant over. sorry to get off topic. :)

Yeah, wel, @ leest I no two capadalize tha furst leter uv u sentents. :-)

(tig)

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Originally posted by Steven1621
a year seems a bit idealistc to get the g5 in the pb. there are some major cooling issues to address, but i would never doubt apple.

before we get the rumors started all over again, don't place too much weight into the statement.

I don't think it's optimistic to say we'll have a G5 Powerbook in a year. With IBM going to 90nm by the end of the year - and some say they are actually going to 60nm - it may be sooner. My wager is that we may see an introduction of them in January with the PB G5s shipping in late Feb/early March. That may be a bit optimistic, but I think Steve's quote is very realistic, especially since he said it. Steve giving a timeframe of 1 year leads me to believe that it'll happen quicker and Steve is just being precautious. I think we'll find that some of Apple's given timelines can be cut in half.

[froejoe]

Originally posted by The Grimace
No, but I'd wager that you won't be able to buy it WITHOUT a new copy of Windows. Which will leave those of us who ain't gonna EVER gonna buy XP (I'd go 2K instead) without an upgrade option. I use 5.x, by the way, with Win98SE.

(tig)

You can buy Virtual PC 6 without a bundled Windows OS. I have mine in hand.

[sedarby]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
G5 iBooks within months of G5 PowerBooks.

Precedent: Original iBook, Lombard/Pismo.

Yes, Apple is going to go from a G3 straight to a G5. Give me a break :rolleyes:

[CraigS]

This statement by Steve seems to have a couple of messages implied in it. One is a sales push -- he's saying that if you need a Powerbook and were hoping for a G5 version, don't hold your breath because they're more than a year away, so buy a new G4 Powerbook now.

The other is simply to indicate that the G5 will indeed be included in portables in the future, which gives further indication of Apple's commitment to the chip -- the same reason he announced that they would be reaching 3 Ghz within a year. He's telling the world - users, developers, vendors, investors - that the G5 is the chip of Apple's future, so plan accordingly. This is an important enough reason for Steve to break from his usual level of secrecy on future product announcements with these two indications of the G5's future. Making a move to a new chip and a new 64-bit architecture requires a public commitment by Apple to say that this is the "real thing" and Apple is not going away from the PPC.

[greenstork]

Here is a quote from CNBC.com about Motorola. thought you all might enjoy:

How’s this for a vote of no confidence? Shares of Motorola_(MOT, news, msgs) jumped more than 8% in before-hours trading after its chairman and CEO Christopher Galvin said he plans to retire. Galvin will remain until the company finds a successor.

Wall Street obviously approved. Five brokerages upgraded the stock in response to the news. Merrill Lynch raised Motorola to “buy” from “neutral.” Merrill said Galvin’s departure illustrates the company’s commitment to unlock hidden value and that a new CEO could be more aggressive in pursuing growth and profitability, Briefing.com reported.

[mdntcallr]

Year of the laptop? about 50% if all apples sold???


only if they update the Ibooks also to some kickass power.

[sedarby]

Originally posted by Steven1621
a year seems a bit idealistc to get the g5 in the pb. there are some major cooling issues to address, but i would never doubt apple.

before we get the rumors started all over again, don't place too much weight into the statement.

I would put a lot of weight into the statement since the entire motherboard will have to be redesigned, tested, etc. Remember you can't retrofit a G5 since the bus is going to be different.

[Rincewind42]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Somerset was the joint IBM/Motorola facility. At Somerset, at least originally, the engineers didn't know which company their coworkers were from. Somerset broke up in 1998 due to differences between IBM and Motorola (the former wanting to implement copper interconnects, the latter wanting to implement AltiVec).

Yes, but your missing the point. By the time the G4 did arrive, IBM was pulling out of Somerset due to those differences. Soon after, Motorola started losing engineers to Intel. So Motorla lost a lot of talent from their pool of CPU designers all at once, and all shortly after the release of the G4.

[panphage]

Originally posted by sedarby
I would put a lot of weight into the statement since the entire motherboard will have to be redesigned, tested, etc. Remember you can't retrofit a G5 since the bus is going to be different.

Yes, you are right, and Apple has been working on the new motherboard for AT LEAST 18 months now. I think we are currently waiting on a die shrink of the system controller and maybe an even more power-efficient iteration of the CPU.

[Blackcat]

Originally posted by panphage
Yes, you are right, and Apple has been working on the new motherboard for AT LEAST 18 months now. I think we are currently waiting on a die shrink of the system controller and maybe an even more power-efficient iteration of the CPU.

Indeed. There's no reason why it will take a year, if they wanted to they could do it now using a slower chip (1.2Ghz 970s use less power than older 1GHz G4s).

I think he just gave a comment because he had to. The comments earlier this week by Rubenstein certainly suggest it's not a big problem.

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by sparky76
The PB's are as good and as fast as truly portable Wintel laptops,

No they aren't. As has been stated a 900Mhz -1Ghz Pentium M is about the equivalent of a 1.33Ghz G4. Now look at the higher end 1.6Ghz Pentium M and things get messy.

http://www.barefeats.com/al15b.html

The Pentium M is the first CPU where Intel isn’t focusing on MHZ or GHZ but actual performance.

By next spring things could be looking rather bleak for the PowerBooks unless there is a miracle from Moto (I'm not holding my breath.) Or a Godsend from IBM/Apple in the form of a G5. I’m not debating whether the current crop of G4’s are fast. When compared to the previous gen of PowerBooks they are a nice speedbump. I’m just point out that unlike desktops which have now fully caught up with the PC world laptops aren’t there yet and probably won’t be there until a PowerBook G5 makes its debut.

[The Grimace]

Originally posted by froejoe
You can buy Virtual PC 6 without a bundled Windows OS. I have mine in hand.

Yes, I know you can buy it now without a Windows OS, but what about in the future? That is my concern. Will the next version, which was supposed to offer hardware graphics acceleration, be available as a stand alone product?

(tig)

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by The Grimace
Will the next version, which was supposed to offer hardware graphics acceleration, be available as a stand alone product?

I thought that graphics acceleration was to be a feature of the stillborn vapor-ware emulator, not VPC/Mac.

Has MS published any new feature list for the next version of VPC?

[dongmin]

Some obvious points people are glossing over:

1. The G5 is coming to Powerbooks, in 15 months at the most. So Apple is not going to put in a brand new chip, like a G3 variant as some suggested, in the PBs in that time frame. So forget your G3+Altivec talk. For the PBs anyways.

2. The iBook will NEVER get a G4. Why? Because the G4 has nowhere to go. Apple has so far kept the G3 at similar clockspeed as the G4; some say in fact that Apple has held back the speed of the G3 to make the G4 look better. We can assume that the iBook will get a 1.1 ghz G3 sometime in the next few months. If, by some stroke of good fortune, the G4 gets bumped to 1.6 ghz, the G3 will probably go up to something like 1.4. So what happens then? Apple won't switch the iBook to the G4 because it has no room to grow. If Apple is gonna make a switch, it'll be to something with more room to grow. So no G4 for the iBook.

[macphoria]

2. The iBook will NEVER get a G4. Why? Because the G4 has nowhere to go. Apple has so far kept the G3 at similar clockspeed as the G4; some say in fact that Apple has held back the speed of the G3 to make the G4 look better. We can assume that the iBook will get a 1.1 ghz G3 sometime in the next few months. If, by some stroke of good fortune, the G4 gets bumped to 1.6 ghz, the G3 will probably go up to something like 1.4. So what happens then? Apple won't switch the iBook to the G4 because it has no room to grow. If Apple is gonna make a switch, it'll be to something with more room to grow. So no G4 for the iBook.
I disagree. iBook has room to go to G4.

Sept 2003:
PowerBook G4 1.33 GHz
Oct-Nov 2003:
iBook G3 1 GHz (iBook has been upgrading by 100 MHz increments)

Summer-Fall 2004:
PowerBook G5 1.6-1.8 GHz
iBook G4 1.25-1.33 GHz

[greenstork]

Originally posted by dongmin
Some obvious points people are glossing over:

1. The G5 is coming to Powerbooks, in 15 months at the most. So Apple is not going to put in a brand new chip, like a G3 variant as some suggested, in the PBs in that time frame. So forget your G3+Altivec talk. For the PBs anyways.

2. The iBook will NEVER get a G4. Why? Because the G4 has nowhere to go. Apple has so far kept the G3 at similar clockspeed as the G4; some say in fact that Apple has held back the speed of the G3 to make the G4 look better. We can assume that the iBook will get a 1.1 ghz G3 sometime in the next few months. If, by some stroke of good fortune, the G4 gets bumped to 1.6 ghz, the G3 will probably go up to something like 1.4. So what happens then? Apple won't switch the iBook to the G4 because it has no room to grow. If Apple is gonna make a switch, it'll be to something with more room to grow. So no G4 for the iBook.

You two points seemingly contradict eachother. You say in the first to forget the G3 + Altivec talk yet in the 2nd point you dismiss the possibility of a G4 in the iBook. I think if the G4 is not going into an iBook, then it will surely be a G3 + Altivec because it won't be a G5 for years and years.

That said, my gut feeling is that the G4 will go into an iBook as soon as the G5 goes into a PB or sooner if some other chip makes its way into a PB between now and the G5. However, if a viable G4 alternative existed, I could see Apple wanting to distance itself from Motorola.

As time goes on and more gets fleshed out about the G5 in PB's, the likelyhood of a G3 w/Altivec gets greater. More likely however, it won't be called a G3 but something like gMobile or some other fancy new name. The G3 was a great chip with room to grow. A far better chip pound for pound than the G4. It is cool and efficient and would be much freaking better than the G4 if it only had Altivec. That said, I put my money on IBM developing a chip for mobile processors, just like Intel. You can call it whatever you want (G3 w/Altivec or mobile G5) but I would think that it is pretty far along in development by now. Given that the G5 is fairly new and mobile development of that chip is fairly new, I could easily see that they have been developing Altivec for the G3, a chip perfectly suited for mobile computing with plenty of room to scale up. People see G3 speed now and think its an inferior chip but if it had Altivec and scaled up to 1.4 Ghz, I bet it would be a far superior chip than what is in the PB's right now. Besides, this chip will have to be developed in order to put something in an iBook. They're not going to put G5's in there for 3-4 years I would think.

The G3 was a workhorse, and a damn good chip, I hope they do continue to develop it as a poor man's G5. Something has to go in eMacs and iBooks and everyone who's ready to ditch Motorola, raise your hand.

Just my two cents.

-Dave

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by sparky76
It would be quite an engineering feat to put a G5 in a laptop this soon after desktop launch.

It would be quite an engineering feat to put a G5 in a laptop, not because of the desktop launch, but because it's a G5.

The G3 was put into a laptop within days of the desktop launch.

Originally posted by Analog Kid
I expect that one of the results of ejecting their CEO will be the sale of Mot's Semiconductor Sector. Future G4's (32bit altivec, however you want to call them) will probably come from either ST Micro or IBM.

You know, if IBM bought it, that would be the greatest thing ever to happen.

Originally posted by Analog Kid
I don't expect Apple to build a desktop-replacement luggable until their marketshare increases by a factor of 4.

I expect Apple to build a desktop-replacement slim, sleek, and sexy PowerBook as soon as they can.

Originally posted by matznentosh
The G5 powerbook is obviously waiting for the 90 nm chip, which is not off the assembly line yet by any means.

Prototypes are out there.

Originally posted by sedarby
Yes, Apple is going to go from a G3 straight to a G5. Give me a break :rolleyes:

Why not? Give me one good reason. Rolling your eyes is not an argument, it's a logical fallacy.

Also, it's possible that there will be a G4 iBook long before the G5 PowerBook. I'm not saying it will happen, but it might. So the premise of your argument is not necessarily right either.

Originally posted by Rincewind42
Yes, but your missing the point. By the time the G4 did arrive, IBM was pulling out of Somerset due to those differences. Soon after, Motorola started losing engineers to Intel. So Motorla lost a lot of talent from their pool of CPU designers all at once, and all shortly after the release of the G4.

Definitely, although they started having problems even with the original release...anyone remember the "speed-dump"?

[neilw]

I believe that the only reason for PBG5's to take as long as SJ's quote implies would be to wait for silicon. Apple would have had plenty of time work out the issues before then otherwise.

At this point, we can assume with some confidence that they're at least waiting for the 90nm 970 and probably a new 90nm system controller as well, with functionality more appropriate for a laptop than the current part.

At this point, we do not know the true schedule of the 90nm 970's, rumors notwithstanding. I do believe that Apple would at least have some engineering samples by now. We know absolutely zilch about the schedule for any new system controller. That could be a hold-up, but we'd like to think that Apple's chip team was working on that at least somewhat in parallel with the desktop chip. Even if not, it's gotta be many months since the major part of development on the desktop chip ramped down, so they should be getting there.

We also hope that Steve's expressed uncertainty does not indictate that Apple is unsure if even the 90nm silicon can go in a laptop. If we need to wait for the 65nm process to come on line, we're in for a long and cranky wait.

My own predictions, worth what you paid for them: end of 2004 is very conservative, and intended, as others have said, as a sales prod for the current machines, and to defuse the rumor mill looking for PBG5's at MWSF. By next summer, PBG5 rumors will be completely out of control, and Apple will announce them some time in the summer, shipping by September or October at the latest. I wouldn't rule out WWDC, if all goes particularly well.

I wish I had a clue about the speeds, but not having seen a shred of documentation on the 90 nm 970, can't make an intelligent guess beyond speculating that at least 1.6 GHz will be available.

The interesting wrinkle for me is whether Moto can come up with any kind of speed bump for the PBG4's between now and then...

[iLilana]

I've said it before (I think)

macworld feb 2004
g5 duals across line
eMac revision (new screen or something)


june wwdc 2004
intro of new g5 powerbook // dual g5 3gig demos to grand applause but due to strike or natural disaster shipping date announcement delayed.
iBook update
iPod update (phone included with touch screen and inkwell FW800)

sept 2004 shipdate announced of g5 3gig
imac reaches 1.6 with new metalic look

xmas 2004 sees open source versions of osx or darwin/linux hybrid for pc with aqua like UI(with aqua-ish look)on pc's because of peoples general hatred of Bill gates and viruses. Unless its out there already

[Blackcat]

Originally posted by iLilana
xmas 2004 sees open source versions of osx or darwin/linux hybrid for pc with aqua like UI(with aqua-ish look)on pc's because of peoples general hatred of Bill gates and viruses. Unless its out there already

It is. Apple sells Darwin for a few $. It hasn't got a GUI or Cocoa framework but it is a usable BSD Unix for hardcore techies.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by iLilana
I've said it before (I think)

macworld feb 2004

MWSF is in January.

Originally posted by iLilana
xmas 2004 sees open source versions of osx or darwin/linux hybrid for pc with aqua like UI(with aqua-ish look)on pc's because of peoples general hatred of Bill gates and viruses. Unless its out there already

Now that's just delusional. Apple will never open-source all of Mac OS X, it's far too valuable. And they will never release an OS (other than Darwin) for x86. Especially not an open-source OS. That would gain them nothing, despite the immense costs.

[hose this!]

I don't know what the big deal is. Reading the other threads, people seem to be convinced there isn't much need for PBs faster than the ones Apple have just released. It's a great computing experience. Virus-free OS, as long as it has FW 800 (does anyone actually use FW800 periphs?), ad nauseum.

I think Apple should just keep churning out the same models now for the next 3-4 years.

I mean really, who ARE these knobs that keep demanding higher processor speeds, higher RPM drives, and higher rez-screens in the PowerBook line much less the iBook line?!

Pshaw! You can have OSX and FW800 now! You don't need anything else! Ever!!!!!!!:D

[dongmin]

Originally posted by greenstork
You two points seemingly contradict eachother. You say in the first to forget the G3 + Altivec talk yet in the 2nd point you dismiss the possibility of a G4 in the iBook. I think if the G4 is not going into an iBook, then it will surely be a G3 + Altivec because it won't be a G5 for years and years.

you misunderstood me. I meant that a G3 variant will not make its way into a POWERBOOK. We know for sure now that the next step for the Powerbooks is a G5. When is the big question now: 6 months? Next summer? Next Xmas?

The iBook is a whole another matter. I'm guessing that the iBooks will stay with G3s for quite a while. The G3 is the best mobile processor Apple has right now. It still has quite some room to grow.

In response to Macphoria: the only reason the iBook is at the clockspeed it's at now is b/c Apple doesn't want it to trump the PB's clockspeed. Now that the PBs have made the jump to 1.33/1.25 ghz, Apple should be able to up the iBook to 1.1 ghz.

[macphoria]

The iBook is a whole another matter. I'm guessing that the iBooks will stay with G3s for quite a while. The G3 is the best mobile processor Apple has right now. It still has quite some room to grow.
Absolutely. That's why I want to see IBM's take on G3 + AltiVec/SIMD, which might outperform Motorola's G4.

In response to Macphoria: the only reason the iBook is at the clockspeed it's at now is b/c Apple doesn't want it to trump the PB's clockspeed. Now that the PBs have made the jump to 1.33/1.25 ghz, Apple should be able to up the iBook to 1.1 ghz.
No kidding. Tell me something I don't know. But Apple will settle for 1GHz G3 for next iBook update. Why? Because minimum amount of update will give them enough breathing room, in case the following update doesn't work out too well. Besides, iBook update has been going by 100MHz increment as I mentioned.

[littlemacdude]

If Apple were to have a G5 laptop there would be chances of them probaly in the holiday season the earliest and around this time next year the latest.:cool:

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by Ramsos
I think gateway is moving away from computers and focusing more on electronics such as plasma tvs, digital Cameras, DVD players. home theater systems. etc... I don't even remember that last time i saw a gateway commercial that actually included PC's.

Their spokesman got busted for some minor pot infraction and instead of saying se la vi, they terminated their highly successful and plenty of public buzz computer campaign, and let PC sales drop waaaayyyy off. Are these people in business to make money to to satisfy some putitan interest. Last I checked most leading edge computer users were far from puritans.

It probably helpd out the mac G5 ads get noticed at all.

Rocketman

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by tizza
Well that doesn't make me feel so bad about going out and buying my new G4 PB - I wonder if there will be a 64-bit OS by the time the G5 PB's come out?? I guess that's where it's all slowly heading ...

Apple announced a couple years ago that announcements wil now be made about when the products are ready instead of trying to time for major events in the expos.

Having a 32 bit OS on a 64 bit allows "back end drivers" to employ 64 bitness when it is critical to performance and leave a 32 bit front end on the OS as far as the apps are concerned. I suspect the speed improvements we have seen this year are as various drivers are modified to recognize and employ G5 (when available).

This also gives us bloatware as we all have OS's installed that could just as easily be run on a PBG3 firewire as a DP G5.

If somewho the OS could be trained to put unneeded resources (away) ala the "Control Panels (disabled)" folder on OS9, then we might have something.

There has to be a fairly huge amount of memory wasted by loading resources "just in case" you need them.

But the amazing thing is the wide compatibility. With older 10.x stuff, with G3, G4, G5, with powerbooks and laptops and iMacs, probably even iPods (just in case omitted).

Add emulators like VPC and Tenon and others to the mix and you have an OS agnostic computer.

And bloatware.

Rocketman

[hose this!]

Originally posted by neilw
My own predictions, worth what you paid for them: end of 2004 is very conservative, and intended, as others have said, as a sales prod for the current machines, and to defuse the rumor mill looking for PBG5's at MWSF. By next summer, PBG5 rumors will be completely out of control, and Apple will announce them some time in the summer, shipping by September or October at the latest. I wouldn't rule out WWDC, if all goes particularly well.

Technical constraints and claims from many on this board that there's nothing to complain about the latest G4 revisions - if Apple are still selling these next summer - man oh man...

As a business imperative, if Apple is not selling G5 PowerBooks in 12 months, they will be in pretty serious trouble. A few fanatical posters who aren't even IN the market for a new notebook aren't going to make a lick of difference on the bottom line - it's going to be all those would-be buyers who wonder whether the Apple premium is worth it for a laptop that will have half the performance/features of the latest Centrino models (which are getting lighter, thinner, with more screen res options, faster hard drives that consume less power, etc.).

[macolicous]

Hello I just bought a 15in AlPb and I was wondering if anyone could tell me the best lock/strongest. I know Apple suggests the Kensington but I was wondering if there was anything stronger or more tamper proof. Thanks in advance.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by Rocketman
Their spokesman got busted for some minor pot infraction and instead of saying se la vi, they terminated their highly successful and plenty of public buzz computer campaign, and let PC sales drop waaaayyyy off.

Wasn't that Dell, whose spokesman got busted for pot?

[daveL]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Wasn't that Dell, whose spokesman got busted for pot?
Yes. I don't think cows smoke, although they may enjoy the occasional bronwie :)

[tristan]

I think it's up to IBM really - when they have a low power version of the G5 and all of the system controller chips, apple will use it ASAP. I'm sure IBM and Apple engineers are in a conference room right now trying to figure out how to make it happen.

I know some people say "well, the G5 at 1.2ghz uses less power than the G4". That may be true or not, i dunno, but just about every decent laptop uses a laptop processor. If you've followed the industry, you've seen time and time again that scaled down desktop processors make lousy laptop chips.

BTW IBM is not Apple's buddy. They are a vendor and a strategic partner who is using Apple to fund their processor development. Developing processors gets more expensive every year, and it's looking like there will only be three CPU companies - Intel, AMD, and IBM, and AMD and Intel will fight over the PC market and creep into the server, and IBM will have the mac market and the high end server. (Sun will switch to IBM processors I think, because they can't keep pace.) So that means a single CPU vendor again for Apple - an extremely strong vendor with clearly stated ambitions to dominate the IT industry.

Think about that for a while. :-)

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by tristan
I think it's up to IBM really - when they have a low power version of the G5 and all of the system controller chips, apple will use it ASAP. I'm sure IBM and Apple engineers are in a conference room right now trying to figure out how to make it happen.

Apple develops the system controller, not IBM.

Originally posted by tristan
I know some people say "well, the G5 at 1.2ghz uses less power than the G4". That may be true or not, i dunno, but just about every decent laptop uses a laptop processor. If you've followed the industry, you've seen time and time again that scaled down desktop processors make lousy laptop chips.

Excuse me?

PowerBook G3?
iBook G3?
PowerBook G4?

Apple has NEVER used a "laptop processor". The only reason the PC market uses them is because Pentiums are so hot and power-sucking.

[tychay]

Originally posted by goof_ball
I certainly hope that Apple's engineers won't take a year and a half to get them in a laptop. Whats the limiting factor? Obviously heat is...but how are these chips on power?

The two are one and the same. Power requirements = heat that needs dissipation. As has been stated many times, a current G5 Powerbook could be done (in terms of heat/power) if they were willing to clock them in at 1.2Ghz. Apple obviously is not willing to do so possibly for the reason that the miniscule performance gain from a 1.25Ghz 7447 G4 does not justify the added design costs. After all, you can only just now put 2GB in notebooks so I don't understand how the 64-bitness comes into play...

Clearly Apple is waiting for the G5 @90nm (speeds up to 3Ghz) which is expected around mid year 2004. That has been a good guess since WWDC July of this year so one wonders why everyone is so negative about an offhand comment of "G5 powerbooks by the end of 2004" which seems a most reasonable and realistic time frame.

I have to wonder why now that the G5 comes out everything thinks the G4 is outdated. I noticed BareFeats has started to comparing the new G4 Powerbooks to absurd fetish machines that contain Pentium 4 desktop CPUs with desktop buses and power requirements--the CPU alone drains 6x the watts of the G4 (more than both processors in a 2x2Ghz G5)! The old G4s compared well (but didn't beat) the best Pentium Ms (Centrino) and crushed Pentium 4Ms in most cross platform benchmarking. The new G4s handedly beat the old G4s even without a L3 cache. It's still a good computer by my reckoning, though I consider that there is much more to a notebook than how many frames I can get out of Quake 3.

I was at DEMOmobile. Every product that was introduced that was dependent on a desktop/notebook was windows-based. For instance, the new Tapwave Zodiac only works with Palm Desktop for Windows (the Mac one needs to wait until Palm updates the HotSync manager), all the remote access software PCs worked only with Windows, even I develop and test our web software for Windows first. You could hardly find a higher density of PC-centricity around. And yet, it was shocking to see how many attendees and demonstrators had Mac notebooks, I among them. Many a discussion started with a person commenting jealously on my choice of hardware.

And the G4 still has some legs. It has just gone, with the 7447 and 7457, into 130nm so I expect at least one more speed bump without asking too much from Motorola and perhaps a minor revision from Apple to L3-enabled 7457 (if justified). Hmm... one more speed bump in 5 months means Apple can introduce the G5 Powerbook in a year and still keep a regular release schedule that we've come to expect. A schedule that is twice the rate as the Apple of the 80's and early 90's.

Take care,

terry

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by tychay
After all, you can only just now put 2GB in notebooks so I don't understand how the 64-bitness comes into play...

Future-proofing. Also, the G5 is better, 64-bit or not.

Originally posted by tychay
The old G4s compared well (but didn't beat) the best Pentium Ms (Centrino) and crushed Pentium 4Ms in most cross platform benchmarking. The new G4s handedly beat the old G4s even without a L3 cache. It's still a good computer by my reckoning, though I consider that there is much more to a notebook than how many frames I can get out of Quake 3.


I feel better about my G4 PowerBook now! Only if I can actually get it!

[panphage]

Originally posted by tristan
I know some people say "well, the G5 at 1.2ghz uses less power than the G4". That may be true or not, i dunno, but just about every decent laptop uses a laptop processor. If you've followed the industry, you've seen time and time again that scaled down desktop processors make lousy laptop chips.


Allow me to retort. Oh, phil has already handled that, but let me add some depth and detail to the argument. Apple doesn't need "laptop" chips because all the chips they've been using for at least 5 years have been designed as embedded processors. They have to stay ultra-low power. Now, the 970 is a slightly different beast, it's a scaled down version of an enterprise server chip. BUT, IBM's stated purpose for the 970 (and this could have been a smokescreen) was for high-density blade servers. Let's put 32 970's into 3u and see how the heat goes. Someone has pointed out to me that this is a more forgiving environment than a laptop, but I'm not buying it. Sun's Sun Fire blade servers fit 16 blades to 3u, and they estimate an average 18W/blade. This looks suspiciously close to embedded numbers, so the G5 should be tailor-made for low-power, heat-intolerant situations, IF the 970 blades are anything like the Sun blades. IBM's current blades are more like 12 servers (potentially dual-proc, and Xeons, not power-efficient ultrasparcs) to 7u.

[panphage]

Heehee, I can't stand it, I was just looking over Sun's Blade systems. A single blade: 1 650-MHz UltraSPARC IIi processor with 512-KB on-chip L2 cache, 1 30-GB 5400 RPM IDE disk drive and 2GB memory will run ya $2795. The 3u chassis for the blades is $4,795. So a chassis full of blades goes for: $49,515. This is marketed by Sun as an Entry Level Server. :D And we complain about Apple hardware being expensive.

Sorry to get so far OT.

[Phil Of Mac]

I really don't want a 650 MHz processor.

[tychay]

Originally posted by panphage
If the 970 blades are anything like the Sun blades. IBM's current blades are more like 12 servers (potentially dual-proc, and Xeons, not power-efficient ultrasparcs) to 7u.

IBM's BladeCenter is 14 servers (dual-processor Xeons) to 7u, not 12--that's 28 CPUs/7U. I know this because I use one at work. The 970 blades are due 1Q 2004 though I don't know how many CPUs there will be in them.

BTW, the BladeCenter has a similar airflow design to a certain other computer from our favorite fruit-flavored company.

We considered the Sun blades at the time but opted against them because we didn't want to deal with Solaris, a great OS, since we had everything working fine on Linux, or maybe it was because the blades had not been announced yet so we'd have to be guinea pigs for them. Sun's blades are unusually dense. There are few blade chasis on the market even as dense as the IBMs, and those that are use smaller CPUs or put them front-to-back configurations which is probably a maintenance nightmare.

As for 650Mhz, you have to remember these are UltraSparcs. It would be very good for certain applications. I've met many IT people who swear by Sun. The "megahertz myth" is even more of a myth when you compare a workstation/server class machine to a PC.

Blades are designed to be an "expand as you go" thing so you don't need to plunk down $50k at once (besides I'm sure there are great leasing options). And $50k for 16 CPUs in 3U server is not bad. If you want expensive systems, consider the Cray X1 (http://www.cray.com/products/systems/x1/index.html). Overpriced? Well if you are a three letter agency who is trying to factor large primes, I'd say the cost is justified.

Hmm, I appear to have gone far off topic. What were we talking about again? ;)

To a previous post concerning PC emulation on the G5. I hesitate to recommend WinTel because the company that pushes it, OpenOSX, has been caught with the hand in the open source cookie jar (http://fink.sourceforge.net/pr/openosx.php). For reference, this particular product is just Bochs (http://bochs.sourceforge.net/) with a candy wrapper. Given their past history, I wouldn't be surprised if they've violated the LGPL license somewhere in WinTel. As for their "optimized for the G5" B.S. it just means they've compiled it with the Apple supplied GCC updates. *yawn*. Remember IBMs XLC wasn't out when they announced WinTel. Since Bochs emulates everything and does not take advantage of hardware acceleration, I'd bet its performance is significantly worse than Virtual PC (though this may change over time).

As for Microsoft/Virtual PC conspiracies. I'm on record in previous posts as pointing out that Microsoft's purchased Virtual PC from Connectix in order to strengthen their offering in the Windows Enterprise market. A lot of people seem to forget that Microsoft Windows competes more with previous versions of their own OS then they dow with Mac OS and need to look at how much money Microsoft stands to make more money by crushing Norton Ghost (http://www.symantec.com/sabu/ghost/ghost_personal/) and VMWare (http://www.vmware.com/) than they do by screwing over the few of us who actually need Virtual PC to do cross compatibility testing.

BTW, for the person who needs Windows on their Mac, besides Bochs and Virtual PC there is also Windows Remote Desktop (http://www.microsoft.com/mac/downloads.aspx?pid=download&location=/mac/DOWNLOAD/MISC/RDC.xml&secid=80&ssid=9&flgnosysreq=True) and the various flavors of VNC (too many to link, do a web search), they will easily outperform an emulator. Plus, in the latter case you can run your windows box or macintosh from your Palm handheld for extra geek points (yes, I've done this, but only for the geek points). In general, I'm with the people who believe if you need Windows on a notebook then you're better off buying Windows on a notebook. I just recommend the excellent IBM Tseries Thinkpad (http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=-840&storeId=1&categoryId=2072541&langId=-1&dualCurrId=73) to my brother, I'd recommend this to any user who is interested in a G4 Powerbook but needs Windows.

[panphage]

Originally posted by tychay
I just recommend the excellent IBM Tseries Thinkpad (http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=-840&storeId=1&categoryId=2072541&langId=-1&dualCurrId=73) to my brother, I'd recommend this to any user who is interested in a G4 Powerbook but needs Windows.

Sweet. Fire GL 9000 in a notebook. That link is proof that apple notebooks aren't priced out of competition. The specs on those T-series machines are similar to the Powerbooks, just a tiny step behind in most things (besides the proc, but no superdrive, smaller HDD, smaller screen) and prices are almost identical. Weight and battery life are insane on that thing. It claims SEVEN hours. Damn!

I'm just an off-topic queen, aren't I?

[tristan]

Originally posted by panphage
Allow me to retort. Oh, phil has already handled that, but let me add some depth and detail to the argument. <snip>

Thanks - I stand corrected. :-) Guess I was relying too heavily on my PC processor chip knowledge.

[JSRockit]

Originally posted by panphage
Sweet. Fire GL 9000 in a notebook. That link is proof that apple notebooks aren't priced out of competition. The specs on those T-series machines are similar to the Powerbooks, just a tiny step behind in most things (besides the proc, but no superdrive, smaller HDD, smaller screen) and prices are almost identical. Weight and battery life are insane on that thing. It claims SEVEN hours. Damn!

I'm just an off-topic queen, aren't I?

The 14" screen has SXGA+ resolution though...so that makes it kind of nice.

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by mim
I think the point may be more like "I want to eat at that expensive restaurant but they don't serve mustard with their chicken, so I'm not going to eat at all!" All alternatives to the ideal are NOT equal.

In the end you have to decide if you'll starve until the shippment of mustard arrives, or eat humble pie (so to speak).
At last a change from the used-and-abused car analogy... Keep it up my mouth is starting to water.

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by Analog Kid
I'd also guess that the consumer lines will stay G4 until the G5 gets an appreciable core update-- call it the 980 or G6 or whatever, comes out (SMT?). They're consumer lines-- they don't need more than 4GB of addressable memory.
True. But if you want to sell an iMac to a PC user, you are going to need to show some better frame rates at UT2003 than what we currently have. Ok it comes with the graphics card, but the processor helps a bit too. Now the problem is: is the iMac design in its current form capable of supporting a powerful graphics card (you know, those bad boys that come with fans the size of a wind turbine) and a power-hungry processor.
(sorry for being slightly off-topic)

[veloct]

I don't understand why everyone is so disappointed. Anyone with a relatively new G4 can wait for sure. Folks with older G4's and G3's, I can see it.

Also, so the intel or amd chips will be faster. Big deal? You can't run OS X (or whatever we'll be up to by the time the G5 PB's come out) on intel or amd. Just by that, it's worth the wait.

I'm happy with my eMac G4 and it will hold up until the G5 PB's get here.

Look at it this way, keep saving up and by the time they come out you'll have enough money to buy the top of the line G5 PB that will blow away anything running a winblows OS.

That's just my opinion.