Apple Screen Reader? [Archive]

gsdali

Sep 22, 2003, 01:01 PM

there are several PC screen readers, they have to be bought as extras. I do hope this is bundled with OSX, or is a free download, making OS X the system of choice for Blind users.

(Don't forget web deisgners you ought to be designing sites that help screen readers. If your site is in the UK it will be against the law from 2004 to discriminate against disabled users, even passively. See the RNIB (http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/code/public_rnib003460.hcsp) for details)

john7jr

Sep 22, 2003, 01:11 PM

This is great, my fiance is mostly blind and has worked with a lot of peopel who use screen readers on PCs, it's been the only option until now.

Jaguar's ability to zoom the way it does, without 3rd party software, is lightyears ahead of PC's. She imidiatly switched from using (paid-for) ZoomText on the PC to the Mac because of this great feature.

I can't wait to see what Apple does with the Screen Reader.

=)

macMaestro

Sep 22, 2003, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by gsdali
I do hope this is bundled with OSX, or is a free download...

I bet it will be. Can you imagine: "Screen Reader, Apple's innovative contribution to the blind community, starting at only $99." This sounds to me like something that would definitly come bundled with OSX as part of Apples's universal access features.

digidoodle

Sep 22, 2003, 01:18 PM

This is an excellent development, and has the potential to increase the utilization of macs among federal agencies, which are required by Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act (http://www.section508.gov) to develop and procure accessible information technology. The lack of a screen reader for the mac has been a significant barrier.

There actually is screen reading software available for older macs called OutSPOKEN, but I think it only works through MacOS 8.6 or something.

This is great news, and I hope the development proceeds at a speedy rate. For an excellent site about macs and accessibility, check out http://www.maccessibility.com.

Nate

Stella

Sep 22, 2003, 01:32 PM

I'd love to know for what reasons people mark this story "negative".

Its anything but negative, it is very positive.

It can only be good that Apple makes its products accessible to everyone, including the blind.

mac pac

Sep 22, 2003, 01:57 PM

this is going to make Macs look more the good side, and Pcs more the dark side!!!

zephc

Sep 22, 2003, 02:01 PM

I'm pretty sure "partially signed" should be "artially sighted"

Also, to the guy with the 'What if?' sig, the URL is quite misleading... ui-whatif.com? Sounded like a cool user interface design site, but it's just some weird Jesus site with lots of clip art of young models.

tny

Sep 22, 2003, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by Stella
I'd love to know for what reasons people mark this story "negative".

Its anything but negative, it is very positive.

It can only be good that Apple makes its products accessible to everyone, including the blind.

Only negative I can think of is that I'm surprised this isn't already in OS X, it seems an awfully obvious feature.

plastree

Sep 22, 2003, 02:06 PM

Is there anyone out there besides me that turns on screen zooming in the universal access panel just for kicks? I think it's so cool, and it magnifies to a ridiculous resolution.

iGav

Sep 22, 2003, 02:09 PM

Any work in this area is worth while.

I'm working with some guys at the moment in a similar direction... we've got the text-to-speech working dandy, as well as the ability to access text and speech based material from images.

We're also working on 2 forms of navigation, hand clapping... (sounds obvious, but works a treat) and doesn't require you to learn any new language.

But also Sign language recognition, where you sign in front of your computer, and communicate and navigate in that way.

zephc

Sep 22, 2003, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by plastree
Is there anyone out there besides me that turns on screen zooming in the universal access panel just for kicks? I think it's so cool, and it magnifies to a ridiculous resolution.

Yhea I use it all the time. I run my res at 1920x1080 on a 17 inch monitor. "How are you not BLIND yet?" you may be asking. I just bumped most fonts up to the 12-point range (rather than my usual 9-10), but the higher res makes for smaller UI widgets, which frees up more room for windows and text. When something is kind of small to read, I just option-command-+ to read it, (usually a long document or long discussion thread, etc)

Belgium

Sep 22, 2003, 02:17 PM

News like this makes my day!

Being a person with a visual handicap myself, it was love at first sight :o) when I first saw a Mac. This was still in the 80's when the only thing the PC world could offer was some sort of virtual magnifying glass that could move accross your MS-DOS screen. Then I entered a Mac store and we explained them what I wanted. (= Big screen and big letters, so I can read it but still keep the overview). They put me behind a super-expensive (in that time) 21' color display and asked me just how big I wanted the font to be. My eyes popped wide open (something they normally don't do! :o)) and I was just speechless. From that moment on I knew it, this was my computer!
Ok, my parents had to spent a fortune to be able to buy me one, but I'm still in love!

icrew

Sep 22, 2003, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by gsdali
(Don't forget web deisgners you ought to be designing sites that help screen readers. If your site is in the UK it will be against the law from 2004 to discriminate against disabled users, even passively. See the RNIB (http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/code/public_rnib003460.hcsp) for details)

It already is in the US--by making your site inaccessible to screen readers, you are potentially opening yourself up to an ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act)-based lawsuit.....

dxp4acu

Sep 22, 2003, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by zephc
Also, to the guy with the 'What if?' sig, the URL is quite misleading... ui-whatif.com? Sounded like a cool user interface design site, but it's just some weird Jesus site with lots of clip art of young models.

I don't see why this is misleading. It's a devotional every thusday night called 24-7. That's what it appears to be advertising. That was some pretty catchy graphics, by the way. It looked good.

Can't "weird Jesus sites" have cool user interfaces, too??

Please don't be so biggoted.

edenwaith

Sep 22, 2003, 02:34 PM

Dang! Beaten to the punch. I just read that job description a few minutes ago.

penguin

Sep 22, 2003, 02:41 PM

I remember hearing about this and a quick google search yields
http://www.computing.co.uk/Analysis/1141858

Basically it is a touchscreen lcd you can feel.
So you could feel the buttons and all of the text could be converted to braille so you can feel it on your screen. Or as you drag your finger around the screen it would speak whatever was under your finger.

Of course this could be cool for everyone because touch screens would become options.

lolajl

Sep 22, 2003, 02:45 PM

Now this is wonderful, as a deaf woman who loves the Mac. Now, if someone could come up with software that could be used with a camcorder, for instance, iSight, and could translate what I sign into speech, that would be excellent.

m,tz206

Sep 22, 2003, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by Stella
I'd love to know for what reasons people mark this story "negative".

Its anything but negative, it is very positive.

It can only be good that Apple makes its products accessible to everyone, including the blind.

While this is an interesting concept, it does nothing to solve the overall visual-bias of GUI operating systems. With text-based systems, like DOS, visually-challenged users could still function with little burden. Now, since all computer interfaces require the visual & spatial use of a mouse, graphical icons, etc, the blind are greatly disadvantaged.

Sonofhaig

Sep 22, 2003, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by zephc
I'm pretty sure "partially signed" should be "artially sighted"

Also, to the guy with the 'What if?' sig, the URL is quite misleading... ui-whatif.com? Sounded like a cool user interface design site, but it's just some weird Jesus site with lots of clip art of young models.

I'm pretty sure "artially sighted" should be "partially sighted" :D :D :D :D

zephc

Sep 22, 2003, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by dxp4acu
I don't see why this is misleading. It's a devotional every thusday night called 24-7. That's what it appears to be advertising. That was some pretty catchy graphics, by the way. It looked good.

Can't "weird Jesus sites" have cool user interfaces, too??

Please don't be so biggoted.

Just that it had the 'ui' in there, and linked off a Mac site, one would automatically assume "oh, it means user interface". And cmon, Christians are the last ones to be bigoted against, what with a huge following in the US and elsewhere. They are definitely not the victims (even though I've seen some try to make themselves seem like their being persecuted). Anyway, we've spent enough bandwidth on this.

Gabriel

Sep 22, 2003, 03:37 PM

Way back when the first Macs came out Apple was the leader in computers for the blind and visually impaired. Because the screens on the first Macs were so tiny, Apple had to develop software to enlarge things (was it called CloseView? Damn, I used the thing for years and I don't remember). As a visually impaired student I used to get computers on loan from a state agency, and they were always Macs. Unfortunately, by about 1995, Windows really caught up and Apple got pushed out of the accessibility market. It looks like Apple is really making a push to make OS X the best operating system for the blind and visually impaired and they are succeeding very well. I'm very glad Apple is doing this.

BTW - for anyone who lives in New England and is interested in assistive technology, there's a brand new thing called the NEAT Marketplace in Hartford which is a showroom for every type of assistive technology product available. It's really amazing what's available these days. I was there a couple of months ago and they had about 20 PC's and one eMac on loan from Apple.

CrackedButter

Sep 22, 2003, 03:45 PM

Yes how is this story negative? At least these people won't be able to see how slow macs are.

I'm joking by the way.

MrMacMan

Sep 22, 2003, 03:50 PM

*sigh*

Okay, tell me somehow we didn't do 'the slashdot affect' on MacSlash!

:eek:

I know they are a little slow site... but how many sites linked to them?

damnnn... we got them good.

:o :(

The news is good with those disabilities.

Doctor Q

Sep 22, 2003, 03:53 PM

I designed recordkeeping software that is used by an organization that provides materials for the blind and visually impaired. Some of the users of the software are sighted and some are not. The manager, who is herself blind, came over one day to work with us and show us exactly where the software was awkard for her to use with screen-reader software. The software worked pretty well already, but those last quirks made a big difference.

I have read most of the details of the Section 508 requirements, and a few items surprised me, but made sense after I thought about them further. For example, in a web page design, you don't want to repeat all the headings above each row in a table, which sometimes makes a table easier to use when a sighted person scrolls. But when you repeat headings, you are putting too much information there, which just slows down someone who must listen to it rather than see it.

copperpipe

Sep 22, 2003, 03:54 PM

...because I'm a moron who gets off on being anti-anything. Seriously, I don't care what anyone has to say about computers having a long way to go to help with blind people. AT LEAST Apple is doing SOMETHING, and that is positive. Some people, when offered 100 bucks for free, will shake their heads and say "Bah! 100 dollars is nothing compared to what I need!". What buffoons.

SeaFox

Sep 22, 2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by zephc
Also, to the guy with the 'What if?' sig, the URL is quite misleading... ui-whatif.com? Sounded like a cool user interface design site, but it's just some weird Jesus site with lots of clip art of young models.

To answer the question "What if this page loaded faster?"

What if you left the stupid music out? That would help. People don't appreciate loud soundtracks to websites they aren't warned of ahead of time. Especially if they are in a library or computing lab of some sort. I usually leave a site as soon as I encounter it.

Hey, maybe this site is about UI after all. Bad Website UI. :D

SeaFox

Sep 22, 2003, 04:06 PM

whooleytoo

Sep 22, 2003, 04:17 PM

whooleytoo

Sep 22, 2003, 04:25 PM

Looking at other software engineering positions, I found the following:
Visionary Compiler Engineer - Back-End

They're hiring someone to develop highly optimized compilers for the G5, including auto-vectorisation. Interesting, especially since the emphasis seemed to be on C++ rather than Obj-C.

Mike.

Makosuke

Sep 22, 2003, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by whooley
Looking at other software engineering positions, I found the following:
Visionary Compiler Engineer - Back-End

They're hiring someone to develop highly optimized compilers for the G5, including auto-vectorisation. Interesting, especially since the emphasis seemed to be on C++ rather than Obj-C.Woo... that could be cool, not to mention big news.

Back on target, I'm hugely in favor of Apple's beefing up their accessability featuers; they already include a decent selection with the OS, but more is always better. And an integrated screen reader or braille support would be downright cool.

That said, I don't think it's exactly fair to give the GUI concept a hard time because it's hard to use for the blind. Last I checked, the number of blind people is in the vicinity of 0.2%, and partially sighted somewhere around 1%. Of those people, probably half are over 80, and aren't currently big computer users. Since the GUI is a huge efficiency enhancement for the sighted person, and makes learning a computer much easier for them, it's not really fair to take that away from 99% of the population for the sake of the 1%.

Fortunately, technology is getting to the point where it will provide new ways of using spatial organization of information on a computer. Automated readers are an easy one, but a tactile screen is even better--something where you could feel windows, icons, buttons, and text on a surface. Now THAT would be cool.

I'm not trying to sound insulting to people with poor vision--my mother is legally blind without her contacts--but I also think it's worth being reasonable.

Just like with websites; I try to make mine accessable, but since it's a movie review site, I'm not entirely sure how many blind people are going to be interested.

[By the way, I'm with the group asking why anyone would rate a story about Apple working harder to help people with poor eyesight negatively?]

fixyourthinking

Sep 22, 2003, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by m,tz206
While this is an interesting concept, it does nothing to solve the overall visual-bias of GUI operating systems. With text-based systems, like DOS, visually-challenged users could still function with little burden. Now, since all computer interfaces require the visual & spatial use of a mouse, graphical icons, etc, the blind are greatly disadvantaged.

Well, your own point is invalidated by your very words. If you want to be recognized as "NOT another disabled person" who WE all have to make concessions for, you fit in and or get technology like this on the table or attend conferences & go to universities and ask/input into their development. Why complain? NO one can make a product that is already in such a niche market as Apple and suceed by going after 2%-5% of the population.

What are the figures for the population that is blind vs sighted. "Legally blind" is a very loose term so please dispense with any bogus statistics.:cool:

It is nice to see Apple develop this - for some reason though, I think it's for other purposes like GUI/type control without having to talk funny like you do in Viavoice.

cheesy

Sep 22, 2003, 05:05 PM

Mac OS X already has a thing that will speak any text under your mouse. It's in the same Pref Pane as the magnification.

When I got my wireless keyboard and mouse I used magnification a little until the novelty wore off.

Gabriel

Sep 22, 2003, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by adzoox
Well, your own point is invalidated by your very words. If you want to be recognized as "NOT another disabled person" who WE all have to make concessions for, you fit in and or get technology like this on the table or attend conferences & go to universities and ask/input into their development. Why complain? NO one can make a product that is already in such a niche market as Apple and suceed by going after 2%-5% of the population.

What are the figures for the population that is blind vs sighted. "Legally blind" is a very loose term so please dispense with any bogus statistics.:cool:

It is nice to see Apple develop this - for some reason though, I think it's for other purposes like GUI/type control without having to talk funny like you do in Viavoice.

Actually, legally blind is not a loose term at all. Blind can refer to several different things, people who have absolutely no vision, people who have only light perception, etc, legally blind is a standard. In Connecticut legally blind means visual acuity of less that 20/200 or a very small visual field, I forget the exact number. I'm not sure if the same standards apply everywhere.

Some statistics from American Federation for the Blind (http://www.afb.org/info_document_view.asp?documentid=1374)
There are 10 million legally blind or visually impaired (in CT thats 20/80 I think or below) people in the US. Of these 1.5 million have internet access. That seems a little low to me.

From a buisness standpoint targetting people with disabillities is a big deal for Apple. At first it may not seem like it, since there aren't THAT many blind people and they are often poor (IIRC more than 70% of blind people are unemployed) and elderly. However, some of the markets that Apple has been targetting recently, education, government, and even to a certain extent big business often require solutions for people with disabillities.

Having said all that, I think whats important is that its really tough being blind and helping people with disabillities use Macs is just a good thing to do. And, as some people have noted with Mac OS X's Zoom function, often technologies developed to help people with disabillities end up being useful to everybody.

nagromme

Sep 22, 2003, 05:48 PM

This is great--it's available, but expensive, for Windows. It may be for Mac, I don't know, but having it from Apple--as part of the OS hopefully--will be great.

I build Web sites, and if I want to test them for the blind, I must use a screen reader at the library. So I'll benefit even though my vision is fine!

As for the MULTIPLE negative votes--I guess I won't even bother to look at those votes anymore: people must be clicking at random!

tny

Sep 22, 2003, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by lolajl
Now this is wonderful, as a deaf woman who loves the Mac. Now, if someone could come up with software that could be used with a camcorder, for instance, iSight, and could translate what I sign into speech, that would be excellent.

If you're talking about just signed English, well, that's an issue of understanding how to interpret gestures relative to an ideal gesture. If you're talking about ASL, then that's an even bigger problem - because in addition to the first problem named, there is also the actual human language translation problem. They're both pretty serious AI problems, in increasing complexity.

mim

Sep 22, 2003, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by tny
Only negative I can think of is that I'm surprised this isn't already in OS X, it seems an awfully obvious feature.

I think in true Apple style, this will end up more sophisticated and useful than we might expect. Programming an extention to the OS that can render the desktop (images & text) to a braille pad in a way that is easy to understand and actually useful will be a big challenge.

If all they wanted to do was send on screen text to the voice synth they would have implemented this long ago. But that doesn't really help a blind person USE the computer, does it?

But you're right in a way - ideally this would have been done long ago. It's a step in the right direction though. And BTW, probably a step that Microsoft will copy to a tee when they see how it works.

Doctor Q

Sep 22, 2003, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by mim
It's a step in the right direction though. And BTW, probably a step that Microsoft will copy to a tee when they see how it works.If Apple ups the state of the art, I'll be glad to see Microsoft implement the same thing.

lolajl's comment about translating sign into speech has got me thinking. Having software to translate all forms of presentation (graphical, text, large-type, speech, video, sign language, tactile feedback, etc.) to all other forms is not likely to happen due to the number of combinations involved. But we'd get there more easily if we used the "standard intermediate format" approach. If there was software to translate each of these forms to/from a certain standard format, for example XML with a certain schema or PDF with certain conventions, then the end user could put the building blocks together as needed. In the same way that XML web pages are translated into HTML at presentation time and then handled by a specific web browser that might render as either text or speech, you could plug your video signal into your sign-language-to-standard module and from there into your standard-to-voice module, each of these with user-settable parameters.

And while we're at it, make it all open source so everyone can adopt it.

nagromme

Sep 23, 2003, 05:31 AM

I forgot that jaguar already HAS this to a limited extent. Look under Speech > Spoken User Interface. (There's a box to check in Universal Access too.)

You have to have some vision to use it, but when you hover the mouse over a control, the voice speaks it. This doesn't work for text in web pages, etc. but it does work for the URL in Safari, for tooltips, for dialog buttons, for Finder and Dock icons, for menus/popups, for Open/Save lists, for Prefs icons, for SOME toolbar icons (Safari yes, Finder no)--and even for form buttons in web pages.

I notice that it speaks the window widgets too--but for Metal windows, it just says "Button"! For white windows, it's more helpful.

You can also specify a key that will speak selected text. (Hover alone doesn't do it.)

Anyway, worth noting this if you have some degree of vision.

merges

Sep 23, 2003, 10:12 AM

Actually, Mac OS X does most of this already; it's just not designed to be a "primary use" interface.

As others have pointed out, one can both speak and "have spoken" the user interface that's composed of standard controls. In addition to "speaking text under the mouse", Mac OS X can read almost any text aloud. Just highlight it, and choose "Start Speaking Text" from the Speech submenu of the Services menu.

So, in a manner of speaking, this is already built into Mac OS X. It needs a more composed interface, expanded functionality, and better integration, but one can essentially have most of the UI (and user text) spoken, and not only that, but can speak to control the interface as well.

cheesy

Sep 23, 2003, 10:25 AM

like i said...

Originally posted by cheesy
Mac OS X already has a thing that will speak any text under your mouse. It's in the same Pref Pane as the magnification.

When I got my wireless keyboard and mouse I used magnification a little until the novelty wore off.

hal9000

Sep 26, 2003, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by Macrumors
The planned Screen Reader application "will convert all on-screen data (text, objects and controls) to speech or braille enabling a blind or partially signed user to use a Mac."

I hope this means that Apple is getting a new Text-to-Speech synthesizer.

The current Mac OS X TTS synthesizer is not very good compared to some other systems, like AT&T Natural Voices.

Some of the open source TTS synthesizers are approaching Mac OS X quality.

iainmurray

Dec 28, 2003, 09:15 AM

A few things on this thread. Firstly, we have been working on developing a screen reader for OSX for a short while now, and it slowly getting there. Also, the speak text under mouse is useless for blind users they do not use the mouse. (obviously) The task is not all that simple, the main concern is trapping events and keyboard binding. The accessibility framework makes things a little easier but the event/keyboard binding is still a problem.
Lots of programs exist for M$ windows (expensive!!!) and linux is making progress (Gnopernicus project) but there is nothing for OSX. Outspoken was just OK (just) for OS9 but does not work in OSX or classic. The binding problem also exists for the zoom function (less in Panther though). It does not always zoom - change focus- when events occur. For example a dialog box appears in the top left while the user is zoomed into the bottom right, they have no way of knowing that the box has appeared.
For the hard of hearing, we have just completed a "proof of concept" project for translating Auslan (australian sign language) to text. Details are at www.ece.curtin.edu.au/~iain/accessibility
in the next few days.

Doctor Q

Dec 28, 2003, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by iainmurray
A few things on this thread. Firstly, we have been working on developing a screen reader for OSX for a short while now, and it slowly getting there.Thanks for posting this info. It's nice to hear details like this from a developer. Do you find that Mac OS X has the right design/hooks/framework/API for what you are doing, or do you wish you could have Apple's ear for a few minutes and have them tweak the way Mac OS works so your work would be easier?

iainmurray

Dec 30, 2003, 10:47 PM

The accessibility API is pretty good. It allows us to extract the info we need from any compliant application. I don't think it equires many major enhancements. Having apple ear would definatley help, not so much from the API point of view but more from other applications that make life difficult for people with disabilities. Things like the drag to install, or anything that requires mouse input and has no equivilent keybord shortcut.

AlanAudio

Jan 2, 2004, 09:28 AM

Apple have long catered for those with visual impairments.

I'm sure that some of my older Macs used to have parts of the manual in large print, explaining how partially sighted users could use special features.

An effective screen reader needn't solely be of benefit to those with sight limitations.

If you wanted to make a device ultra compact, you might find it advantageous to do away with a visual display and use a verbal input/output system instead.

Similarly, for applications such as navigating while driving, a GPS interface linked to a Mac would be able to give spoken instructions and all but eliminate any need to look at the screen.