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MacRumors
Nov 22, 2007, 09:57 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

PCJoint.com (http://pcjoint.com/multitouch-20-comes-to-apple-devices/) points to ongoing research by Apple into multi-touch technologies. The most recent patent applications reveal techniques to recognize both palm and finger contacts in order to react appropriately.

PCJoint summarizes the possibilities:
- Need to move a cursor across the screen? Just slide your finger and it goes.
- Want to enter text? Just start typing and the text is there. You even get the touch feedback as if really pressing the keys.
- Need to erase some text? Use the backspace or just slide the finger backwards
- Have to write or draw something? Just pretend you hold a stylus or pen in your hand and start writing/drawing.
- If that is still not good enough, pick up the real stylus and start writing with it.
- All these cool touch gestures that Apple has implemented in iPhone and is exploring further? You know, scrolling, zooming, rotating & moving objects, etc; They are here too
- 3D object manipulation? Select a few 3D objects on the screen and use all 5 fingers on both hands to play with them.
- Want to take a break to relax and afraid to put your hands on the touch surface? Don’t worry Multi-touch 2.0 thingie knows that and does not pay attention to your resting palms or fingers


This should come as no surprise to those who have been following Apple's patent applications as well as their previous acquisition of Fingerworks (http://www.fingerworks.com). Previous patent applications (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/01/apple-researching-touch-surface-keyboard/) have also suggested the possibility of one surface acting for many different functions (such as typing and gestures).

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/22/advanced-multitouch-gesturing-patents/)



LillieDesigns
Nov 22, 2007, 10:03 PM
I think there is a world of things we can do with multi-touch, but Apple just has to make sure it stays intuitive. I don't want to have to learn sign language and 300 gestures to get my iPod to do what I am telling it to do. Hopefully some firmware updates come out and we can get some cool new features on our new Apple toys.

ryanmcd02
Nov 22, 2007, 10:08 PM
Apple DS? Input and output screen?

viper002060
Nov 22, 2007, 10:09 PM
we're definitely gonna see a big change in the way in which one will interact w/ a computer pretty soon. seriously, how much longer can they drag out the mouse/keyboard set-up?

Wayfarer
Nov 22, 2007, 10:10 PM
ˇQue guay! Eso es muy interesante. :cool:

Merkuryy
Nov 22, 2007, 10:12 PM
What I hope the most is to get these features through a firmware update in Leopard, because Multitouch is really a "secret feature" that everyone will be happy to own.

On a bigger screen , you'll be able to have less mistakes. My iPod Touch is great, but still made some mistakes some time. Another surprise is how can Apple really handle with texting, this is a delicate work after all

Thertel88
Nov 22, 2007, 10:17 PM
42 minutes

plumbingandtech
Nov 22, 2007, 10:22 PM
and the rumored big iphone size thingie makes sense now.

GIMME!

Pandaboots
Nov 22, 2007, 10:33 PM
I forsee greater things in the future (near future) for this than just iPhone/iPod use. Imagine a glass (and aluminum, of course) surface that becomes everything we need to manipulate a computer and a media center. Virtual keyboard surface, virtual mouse surface and a virtual remote. The technolgy is already here and in use in the iPhone/iTouch....Apple, it's time to revolutionize the industry (again) with touch sensitive virtual input devices. Physical keyboards, mice and remotes are so 2007...It will be fun to watch other companies caught with their pants down again. While everyone wastes their time trying to copy Apple's iPod, iPhone, iTunes Store, and OS, Apple will once again shock everyone with their creativeness, foresight and innovation.

celloman
Nov 22, 2007, 10:34 PM
wow so awesome!

treysmay
Nov 22, 2007, 10:38 PM
I hate to say this But I think the other half of the market, ie. Microsoft and friends have a more promising function for the distant future. While apple has a short terms plan. :apple: is only covering X and Y, while the big M is putting big money in the 'Z':o

dvince2
Nov 22, 2007, 10:39 PM
What would be cool (and more realistic for the short term), is if some of this is brought into the touchpads on laptops and/or new mice for desktops.
For instance...if it can recognize a "stylus grab" (essentally 3 fingers close together), use this for highlighting text. a "pinch" motion for copy, and reverse for paste.
That would let them test the waters a bit before they completly redesign a standard over 30 years old of how we interact with a computer

applefan69
Nov 22, 2007, 10:40 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/3A110a Safari/419.3)

I'm willing to bet within 3 years we'll be seeing a touch screen MacBook or iMac.

Who know maybe Mac OS 11 will be touch-only OS. Knowing apple they could do AMAZING things if they made an OS for computer with multi-touch.

One thing troubles me though, that whole article just screamed "microsoft surface" I mean sure apple is the first to make multi-touch commerical. So its tricky to say who Is copying who.

digitalbiker
Nov 22, 2007, 10:44 PM
What I hope the most is to get these features through a firmware update in Leopard, because Multitouch is really a "secret feature" that everyone will be happy to own.

On a bigger screen , you'll be able to have less mistakes. My iPod Touch is great, but still made some mistakes some time. Another surprise is how can Apple really handle with texting, this is a delicate work after all

Multi-touch is primarily designed to be used for small devices where a keyboard and mouse are not practical. It is not really intended to replace a full size keyboard and mouse in a desktop set-up.

It would be very impractical to be reaching 20 or 30 inches across your desktop rubbing your fingers all over your 30" cinema display. Talk about repetitive stress syndrome!

About the only good use for multi-touch in a desktop environment would be for a new tablet like device (similar to Wacom's Cintiq) or a display table like microsoft demoed this year.

Otherwise think, ipod, iphone, pda, or notebook trackpad.

danerh
Nov 22, 2007, 10:45 PM
They'll be scrapping the big cat names soon for something a little more like...Mac OS Touch... I give them a couple of years at least before we see any macTOUCH's though... I hope I'm wrong, but I'd say its still quite a way off, enough time for them to develop the new operating system they'd need to run it all.

BUT HOW MAD WILL IT BE WHEN THEY DO!?

On the topic though... microsofts 'surface' technology scaled to a regular operating system would also be pretty sweet... and is no doubt just around the corner as well... which brings up some issues....

It could become quite difficult to move from one machine to another if they go about things differently. For a mac user today with little experience on a windows machine, most tasks are still obvious and more or less the same when using a windows machine. Resizing windows, poining and clicking, selecting text, right clicking etc are all universal. As are many keyboard shortcuts and; typing is a no-brainer.
If we move to touch set-ups even the simple things could become difficult no matter how intuitive they are when switching between platforms.

I wonder if there will be any formal standards formed or whether they will just evolve...

fawlty
Nov 22, 2007, 10:46 PM
I hate to say this But I think the other half of the market, ie. Microsoft and friends have a more promising function for the distant future. While apple has a short terms plan. :apple: is only covering X and Y, while the big M is putting big money in the 'Z':o

ya mean Zune?

applefan69
Nov 22, 2007, 10:50 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/3A110a Safari/419.3)

I hate to say this But I think the other half of the market, ie. Microsoft and friends have a more promising function for the distant future. While apple has a short terms plan. :apple: is only covering X and Y, while the big M is putting big money in the 'Z':o

ya mean Zune?

no he's talking about the axis's. Quote frankly he's being retarded though. I aint seen a 3d touch interface from microsoft

Now motion sensing is in a way 3d touch interface, so maybe nintendo deserves credit for making that commercial.

Cant help but wonder what would happen if nintendo and apple merged, both company's seem rather similiar in most aspects.

digitalbiker
Nov 22, 2007, 10:58 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/3A110a Safari/419.3)
Quote frankly he's being retarded though. I aint seen a 3d touch interface from microsoft


You need to get around a little more. Microsoft debuted Microsoft Surface before Apple officially released the iphone.
http://www.microsoft.com/surface

ChrisA
Nov 22, 2007, 11:09 PM
...Imagine a glass (and aluminum, of course) surface that becomes everything we need to manipulate a computer and a media center. Virtual keyboard surface, virtual mouse surface and a virtual remote.

Maybe something like this...
http://www.wacom.com/cintiq/

One other idea might be to use the webcam to watch the user's hands. So you would not have to touch the screen. We all can start learning ASL.

ckurowic
Nov 22, 2007, 11:10 PM
we're definitely gonna see a big change in the way in which one will interact w/ a computer pretty soon. seriously, how much longer can they drag out the mouse/keyboard set-up?

It depends on what your most comfortable with I suppose. How many people are really going to want to move their entire arm to make a pointer move? I don't see it catching on very fast. Why would I want to give up my easy to move mouse to lift my entire arm to move a pointer like in Minority Report?

Last time I checked, most people wouldn't want to use their hand to move a pointer across a 20+ inch screen. Lame. Multi-touch should be for small devices only.

I don't see this as something most users will want. Virtual mouse and keyboard? Um....okay. Last time I checked human beings work best with tactile input devices. Good luck typing on a virtual keyboard where you have zero feedback as to what button you have pressed. I'm skeptical to say the least.

Maybe something like this...
http://www.wacom.com/cintiq/

One other idea might be to use the webcam to watch the user's hands. So you would not have to touch the screen. We all can start learning ASL.




So why would I want to lift my whole arm to move the mouse? Not practical. Never will be.

applefan69
Nov 22, 2007, 11:32 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/3A110a Safari/419.3)

Maybe something like this...

http://www.wacom.com/cintiq/



One other idea might be to use the webcam to watch the user's hands. So you would not have to touch the screen. We all can start learning ASL.









So why would I want to lift my whole arm to move the mouse? Not practical. Never will be.

Wouldnt be for a desktop. But it could amazing on a laptop. For starters the size of the laptop could be like half an inch thinner due to no keyboard



Plus laptops generally only have a max of a 17" screen which people rest on their laps. This means you woyldnt really have to move your arm much.



Plus I'm sure there's other advantages in which I'm missing.

GregA
Nov 23, 2007, 12:03 AM
Microsoft debuted Microsoft Surface before Apple officially released the iphone.
http://www.microsoft.com/surface

Huh?
Microsoft demoed Surface months after Apple demoed iPhone.
Microsoft released Surface... when? (have they?)... certainly after Apple released iPhone.

Neither Surface nor iPhone are 3D interfaces though, which is what you're replying to.... Anyway.. I'm not sure what your point is.

(edit:.. oh, I guess when they're talking about working on different axes ('axis's') you could consider the iPhone to do some of that with the accelerometer... but I really wouldn't call that a 3d interface).

SiliconAddict
Nov 23, 2007, 12:20 AM
Damn it. You can't patent some of this crap! I mean really. Moving your finger backwards to erase. Good lord this has been don on PDA's for about a decade. Apple is going patent insane.

Huh?
Microsoft demoed Surface months after Apple demoed iPhone.
Microsoft released Surface... when? (have they?)... certainly after Apple released iPhone.

Neither Surface nor iPhone are 3D interfaces though, which is what you're replying to.... Anyway.. I'm not sure what your point is.

(edit:.. oh, I guess when they're talking about working on different axes ('axis's') you could consider the iPhone to do some of that with the accelerometer... but I really wouldn't call that a 3d interface).

The iPhone is to Surface as a barcode reader in a PDA is to the technology in general. Apple's implementation is "cute". Its not trying to invent an industry. To put it more bluntly. Microsoft is taking risks with their tech with a long term plan. Apple is doing NOTHING with the touch implementation in the iPhone other then being gimmicky.

Oh and as for Surface and when it was being developed. Sorry but I've been hearing rumors about this since 2003 when we had reps from MS doing then mobile experience tour for the Pocket PC. I use to lead the Pocket PC user group here in MN and I can tell you that there was rumblings about a gesture based interface back then. At the time it was thought that it was going to ship with the Tablet PC edition of Vista to allow you to interface with the tablet without a pen. This obviously didn't happen. MS HAS been working on this a while. The only reason why they choose now to demo it was because of Apple and Mac fanbois who would immediately bitch that they are ripping Apple off even though the two have NOTHING in common other then using your finger and hand. It was launched early and wasn't ready for prime time simply because of Apple. But frankly Apple's implementation is NOTHING. You do realize that coverflow was purchased by Apple. It didn't originate from them. Right? Really. People do need to end this copy crap. Apple copies MS. MS copies Apple. Apple gets a metric crap ton of technologies from open source. And it goes on and on and on.

GregA
Nov 23, 2007, 12:22 AM
It depends on what your most comfortable with I suppose. How many people are really going to want to move their entire arm to make a pointer move? I don't see it catching on very fast. Why would I want to give up my easy to move mouse to lift my entire arm to move a pointer like in Minority Report?

A very important question. In fact, if you think of real life, you reach out and touch things, walk across a room and pick something up. BUT watch a fantasy or magic show, and we all want to make the tiniest gestures with our fingers and have what we want float across to us.

In the computer world... the mouse conveys our magic tiny gesture to make big movements on the screen. In that sense, why would you ever want to lift your arm to touch the screen... it's so much quicker and easier to grab the mouse (and you don't have to clean the screen afterwards).

And yet, I believe touch is a huge part of our near future. I'm not exactly sure why... let's see.... hmmm!

Of course, the touch is more natural than the mouse, for anyone untrained.

I think the main thing is that the mouse can only ever point at one thing at a time. A finger can also only point at one thing at a time (and a mouse on Windows can have 2 types of click!)... but what happens when you can use multiple fingers or even 2 hands? Basically, it enables a whole raft of new interface methods.

Note that the best way of making touch useless is making it work like a mouse. You can still only click one thing, and it's harder to do that!

What Apple (& MS) do with Multitouch will be intriguing.

MikeDTyke
Nov 23, 2007, 12:25 AM
You need to get around a little more. Microsoft debuted Microsoft Surface before Apple officially released the iphone.
http://www.microsoft.com/surface

Yeah, and Microsoft hasn't actually released a surface device yet. Last we heard Balmer said he was hoping for something by the end of this year but most likely early next year.

I think it's also important to point out that the 'coffee table' isn't a consumer device, at least not for the foreseeable future. It's going to turn up in casino's. hotels and fancy winebars. Whereas apple's 1st multi-touch system has been on the market for the last 6 months and combined sales with the iPod touch has probably beaten 2 million sales.

There's a lot of huff an puff about who's done what first, but if you ain't shipped a product then its just vaporware.

M. :rolleyes:

digitalbiker
Nov 23, 2007, 12:36 AM
Huh?
Microsoft demoed Surface months after Apple demoed iPhone.
Microsoft released Surface... when? (have they?)... certainly after Apple released iPhone.

I didn't say Microsoft released Surface before Apple "demoed" iphone. I said Microsoft debuted / demoed (semantics) before Apple "released" iphone. I was merely giving a time frame not suggesting that anyone stole or copied anything from anybody.


Neither Surface nor iPhone are 3D interfaces though, which is what you're replying to.... Anyway.. I'm not sure what your point is.

I guess that depends on what your definition of a 3D multi-touch interface is. I consider being able to build 3D models and manipulate them with multiple hand gestures a 3D interface. Also surface will recognize common three dimensional devices and objects placed on the table and allow interaction and interfacing with multi-touch software.

The point of my post was that AppleFan69 called another poster a "retard", a comment that I find offensive, when he had made a perfectly legitimate comment.

MikeDTyke
Nov 23, 2007, 12:37 AM
Damn it. You can't patent some of this crap! I mean really. Moving your finger backwards to erase. Good lord this has been don on PDA's for about a decade. Apple is going patent insane.



The iPhone is to Surface as a barcode reader in a PDA is to the technology in general. Apple's implementation is "cute". Its not trying to invent an industry. To put it more bluntly. Microsoft is taking risks with their tech with a long term plan. Apple is doing NOTHING with the touch implementation in the iPhone other then being gimmicky.

As long as the USPTO allows stupid patents, Apple and many others will continue to do so, difference is Apple doesn't sit on them and sue everyone that has anything remotely similar, its a defensive move on their part.

As to the iPhone implementation being cute, that's because Apple realises this is a paradigm shift with risks and rather than risk another Newton they are staggering the number of gestures, with an initial group of simple, obvious and useful ones. What's microsoft doing? They're releasing a prototype of a device that will never make any money, with as many functions as they can think of in order to deliver a FUD land grab. I will not be surprised when both Apple and Microsoft via partners have laptops next year sporting multi-touch. I'm just betting on Apple's implementation.

M.

MikeDTyke
Nov 23, 2007, 12:47 AM
I didn't say Microsoft released Surface before Apple "demoed" iphone. I said Microsoft debuted / demoed (semantics) before Apple "released" iphone.



I guess that depends on what your definition of a 3D multi-touch interface is. I consider being able to build 3D models and manipulate them with multiple hand gestures a 3D interface. Also surface will recognize common three dimensional devices and objects placed on the table and allow interaction and interfacing with multi-touch software.

The point of my post was that AppleFan69 called another poster a "retard", a comment that I find offensive, when he had made a perfectly legitimate comment.

In no video of surface have i seen anyone build a 3D model. Also what your describing goes beyond what either Apple or MS have built and the reason is because it's a non-obvious gesture that people can't just walk up and understand. Jeff Han's built that into his multitouch boards, but he's looking at technical/military applications.

Also recognising a 2D tag on a 3D object is not a 3D user interface. Subjective perception i'm sure but MS's implementation uses a 2D interface to present options when a 3D object is present, not that the 3d object 'controls' the UI in any significant way.

Though i agree with you that anyone reduced to calling someone a retard on a forum is not needed.

M. :)

applefan69
Nov 23, 2007, 12:47 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/3A110a Safari/419.3)

Huh?
Microsoft demoed Surface months after Apple demoed iPhone.
Microsoft released Surface... when? (have they?)... certainly after Apple released iPhone.

I didn't say Microsoft released Surface before Apple "demoed" iphone. I said Microsoft debuted / demoed (semantics) before Apple "released" iphone. I was merely giving a time frame not suggesting that anyone stole or copied anything from anybody.


Neither Surface nor iPhone are 3D interfaces though, which is what you're replying to.... Anyway.. I'm not sure what your point is.

I guess that depends on what your definition of a 3D multi-touch interface is. I consider being able to build 3D models and manipulate them with multiple hand gestures a 3D interface. Also surface will recognize common three dimensional devices and objects placed on the table and allow interaction and interfacing with multi-touch software.

The point of my post was that AppleFan69 called another poster a "retard", a comment that I find offensive, when he had made a perfectly legitimate comment.

your right I did step out of line with that comment. I apologize hopefully ill be forgiven.

I still dont think microsoft surface is 3'd touch interface. Honestly I think true 3'd touch interface is impossible because it would require holograms that could detect touch. Since holograms ( to my knowledge) are just projected light. I dont think 3'd touch interface is possible nor practical.

Afterall what's wrong with just x, y axis's? It seems to work quite well so far :)

gifford
Nov 23, 2007, 01:01 AM
Damn it. You can't patent some of this crap! I mean really. Moving your finger backwards to erase. Good lord this has been don on PDA's for about a decade. Apple is going patent insane.



The iPhone is to Surface as a barcode reader in a PDA is to the technology in general. Apple's implementation is "cute". Its not trying to invent an industry. To put it more bluntly. Microsoft is taking risks with their tech with a long term plan. Apple is doing NOTHING with the touch implementation in the iPhone other then being gimmicky.

Oh and as for Surface and when it was being developed. Sorry but I've been hearing rumors about this since 2003 when we had reps from MS doing then mobile experience tour for the Pocket PC. I use to lead the Pocket PC user group here in MN and I can tell you that there was rumblings about a gesture based interface back then. At the time it was thought that it was going to ship with the Tablet PC edition of Vista to allow you to interface with the tablet without a pen. This obviously didn't happen. MS HAS been working on this a while. The only reason why they choose now to demo it was because of Apple and Mac fanbois who would immediately bitch that they are ripping Apple off even though the two have NOTHING in common other then using your finger and hand. It was launched early and wasn't ready for prime time simply because of Apple. But frankly Apple's implementation is NOTHING. You do realize that coverflow was purchased by Apple. It didn't originate from them. Right? Really. People do need to end this copy crap. Apple copies MS. MS copies Apple. Apple gets a metric crap ton of technologies from open source. And it goes on and on and on.

thing is, apple keeps quiet when it comes to research, whereas msft is a blabbermouth. so even if you hear of microsoft doing somethng first, theres a good chance its not really true in reality.
i remember apple were doing research into alternative interaction as far back as 1995.

digitalbiker
Nov 23, 2007, 01:06 AM
In no video of surface have i seen anyone build a 3D model. Also what your describing goes beyond what either Apple or MS have built and the reason is because it's a non-obvious gesture that people can't just walk up and understand. Jeff Han's built that into his multitouch boards, but he's looking at technical/military applications.

Also recognising a 2D tag on a 3D object is not a 3D user interface. Subjective perception i'm sure but MS's implementation uses a 2D interface to present options when a 3D object is present, not that the 3d object 'controls' the UI in any significant way.

Though i agree with you that anyone reduced to calling someone a retard on a forum is not needed.

M. :)

I understand what you are saying and I agree that "3D multi-touch interface" could technically be working with some sort of multi-dimensional interface.

BUT I can also tell you that I have seen, in a major oil company research department, an MS Surface device manipulate 3D dimensional earth models. It was working much the way a clay sculptor works. You could rotate the 3D object, bend and mold the surface by varying pressure on the pressure sensitive table. It is a 3D interface because it works with X, Y, and pressure to shape displayed objects.

inkswamp
Nov 23, 2007, 01:11 AM
Damn it. You can't patent some of this crap! I mean really. Moving your finger backwards to erase. Good lord this has been don on PDA's for about a decade. Apple is going patent insane.

No they haven't and since you haven't yet seen the full implementation of the finger-moving-backward erase gesture, you have no idea whether it's the same as what you've done previously on other devices.

Apple is just protecting themselves against the unethical behavior of other, less worthy competitors. A lot of people were convinced that the column-like view of the iPod's navigation was so obvious that Creative's patent on it wouldn't stand up in court, and yet Apple ended up getting spanked good on that one. I don't blame Apple at this point. Their history is full of great ideas being ripped off by other companies. I have a hard time begrudging them some protection of their research and creativity.

Edit: Here's another instance of someone abusing the patent system to make money off Apple's ideas. (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/11/21/apple_settles_burst_com_patent_suit_for_10_million.html) Don't call Apple "patent insane" when they're constantly getting screwed over by companies that truly are patent insane.

MrCrowbar
Nov 23, 2007, 01:21 AM
Note that the best way of making touch useless is making it work like a mouse. You can still only click one thing, and it's harder to do that!

What Apple (& MS) do with Multitouch will be intriguing.

Amen to that. If you only need the pointer functionality, touchpads are fine. I love how I can easily "right-click" and scroll on both axis on my Macbook's touchpad. Even with a mouse connected, I prefer using the touchpad for scrolling.

I think the iPhone interface does make a pretty good use of 2 fingers. It's not really using your finger as a pointer, rather you can tap things, move them around (swipe, scroll), manipulate items (pinch to zoom) and perform some custom actions like deleting (swipe to the right) here and there. As this is a handheld device, you can't really have more than 2 fingers or thumbs available. Except, of course, if you have an additional touch input sensor on the back which is just cool.

kstefanick
Nov 23, 2007, 01:53 AM
I love Apple.

:apple::apple::apple:

bigandy
Nov 23, 2007, 02:18 AM
- Want to enter text? Just start typing and the text is there. You even get the touch feedback as if really pressing the keys.

mmm, dribble. :)

MikeDTyke
Nov 23, 2007, 02:24 AM
mmm, dribble. :)

yup and virtual stylus, mmmm droool. :)

BKKbill
Nov 23, 2007, 02:39 AM
Why wouldn’t it just be an input device the size of my thin aluminum keyboard. You could type use your finger to cross the 24” screen with one stroke scroll and control everything like the iPhone
Oh and why is the apple store down?

Shagrat
Nov 23, 2007, 02:56 AM
...
Oh and why is the apple store down?


Er it isn't!

MattJessop
Nov 23, 2007, 03:11 AM
I'm quite interested behind the logic behind 'Pretend to hold a pen or stylus in your hand and write something' with this multi-touch.

What do they mean? As in, just hold your hand in the shape of a way you'd hold a pen, and the screen will pick it up from your hand/palm shape? That surely is way too imprecise for writing? Anybody whos tried drawing on the iPhone/Touch knows what it feels like.

But what about actually holding a stylus or pen? Anybody who knows anything about multi-touch knows it is a capacitance surface. Which means it detects the electric signals in your fingers to rely on input, which makes it much more smoother than a pressure based system. Nintendo DS and PDAs are all pressure based, which allows them to use styluses, but also means when you use your finger, you have to press just that bit harder, and not this 'glide your fingers' beauty from multi-touch. Could they possibly make a battery operated stylus?

But we all know what Steve Jobs thinks of styluses. 'ew'

If Apple finds a good way around this then bravo, because it is genuinely a concern. Both technologies are great, and multi-touch is simply an amazing technology. But its still in its infancy, and it still has niggling problems. Like this.

Rant over :)

Otherwise this sounds really cool, albiet what we've heard for months.

BKKbill
Nov 23, 2007, 03:32 AM
Er it isn't!

Er it was at 03:56

MikeDTyke
Nov 23, 2007, 03:52 AM
I'm quite interested behind the logic behind 'Pretend to hold a pen or stylus in your hand and write something' with this multi-touch.

What do they mean? As in, just hold your hand in the shape of a way you'd hold a pen, and the screen will pick it up from your hand/palm shape? That surely is way too imprecise for writing? Anybody whos tried drawing on the iPhone/Touch knows what it feels like.

But what about actually holding a stylus or pen? Anybody who knows anything about multi-touch knows it is a capacitance surface. Which means it detects the electric signals in your fingers to rely on input, which makes it much more smoother than a pressure based system. Nintendo DS and PDAs are all pressure based, which allows them to use styluses, but also means when you use your finger, you have to press just that bit harder, and not this 'glide your fingers' beauty from multi-touch. Could they possibly make a battery operated stylus?

But we all know what Steve Jobs thinks of styluses. 'ew'

If Apple finds a good way around this then bravo, because it is genuinely a concern. Both technologies are great, and multi-touch is simply an amazing technology. But its still in its infancy, and it still has niggling problems. Like this.

Rant over :)

Otherwise this sounds really cool, albiet what we've heard for months.

As it seems you need either a capacitance based or camera based display to do multi-touch it does follow a stylus will probably emit a small electrical field to simulate a finger. Though i don't think it'll be the case of needing to replace batteries once a month, the field would be tiny.

Oh and he also said video on a hand held device would never work. :rolleyes:

I'm still holding out hope for the iNote tablet with stylus for markup and note taking, hi res display for ebooks and a battery life that lasts all day. Shame this precludes an intel processor for now. ie. it'll be OS X on arm as opposed to macos. :(

M. :p

bmk
Nov 23, 2007, 04:00 AM
Apple copies MS. MS copies Apple. Apple gets a metric crap ton of technologies from open source. And it goes on and on and on.

Right. Where would the Mac OS be without Xerox? The trick is being clever enough to know which ideas to steal.

If Steve Jobs had demoed Surface at a Keynote, Mac devotees (me included) would have gone wild. It looks impressive and most people will have seen nothing like it before. However, it is being developed by Microsoft and whether they can implement a real life functioning product using the technology is pretty debatable. Now if Apple did to that kind of touch screen technology what it did to the Xerox graphical user interface...

Plumbstone
Nov 23, 2007, 07:35 AM
one major problem no-one seems to have thought of with this type of device is one of ergonomics and body posture. Whilst it is fine on a small iphone like device to look at the screen as you touch it, for any kind of "real" computer that you might actually want to do work on there are some problems.

Firstly in a relaxed position your eyes look ahead, we all know the best position for a monitor is infront of your face not on your desk, otherwise we would all lay our flat screens down on our desks. Our arms on the other hand like to hang by our sides , not be held up suspended in mid air ffor hours on end. If you have a large single device for input and visualisation then you are going to be compromised on at least one front. Either you have the device on your lap or desk and will have to contantly be bending your neck to look down or you will have it in front of you in which case your arms are up all the time.

One solution would be to have it slanted at roughly 45 degrees towards you, which would solve these problems but would require you to redesign your furniture or put it on a stand which isn't exactly elegant.

I can see this multi touch device being purely an input device which would plug into your current setup via usb. This would be great as it would be cheaper and could be added on to an existing setup with only the need for drivers to be installed. There would probably be a visual feedback on the screen similar to a mouse pointer.

I am sure at some point there will be a combined device but it will like a large iphone , not anything that you would actually want to do any work on for any length of time. Probably just some kind of media centre control device.....

Plumbstone
Nov 23, 2007, 07:38 AM
Right. Where would the Mac OS be without Xerox? The trick is being clever enough to know which ideas to steal.


As Pablo Picasso once said, "Good artists copy, great artists steal"

Apple developers should walk out (http://www.russellbeattie.com/notebook/1007900.html)

Virgil-TB2
Nov 23, 2007, 10:05 AM
I hate to say this But I think the other half of the market, ie. Microsoft and friends have a more promising function for the distant future. While apple has a short terms plan. :apple: is only covering X and Y, while the big M is putting big money in the 'Z':oWhat the heck does this even mean? :confused:

nimbuscloud
Nov 23, 2007, 10:26 AM
Right. Where would the Mac OS be without Xerox? The trick is being clever enough to know which ideas to steal.

If Steve Jobs had demoed Surface at a Keynote, Mac devotees (me included) would have gone wild. It looks impressive and most people will have seen nothing like it before. However, it is being developed by Microsoft and whether they can implement a real life functioning product using the technology is pretty debatable. Now if Apple did to that kind of touch screen technology what it did to the Xerox graphical user interface...

No it wouldn't.

Surface HAS NO CURRENT USE. They are talking about something years in the future. It's a solution looking for a problem. When Steve Jobs show stuff at MacWorld, it's something that will come out THAT YEAR FOR SALE. Not in "2 years, maybe, if we can find venues to sell it through, maybe."

If that was the case, they should have demoed the iPhone in 2005.

Surface is currently nothing. Get over it. It looked interesting, but so does a lot of fake stuff that I see in movies. When it is something REAL that can be USED and BOUGHT, call me...ok?

:apple:

javaguy
Nov 23, 2007, 11:11 AM
I was looking at some open source Java code the other day and saw something interesting - the MouseAdapter routines were marked as synchronized. What this means is that only one process can be inside the routine at a time. If 2 different processes were using the same routine at the same time that could corrupt your data - marking the code as synchronized prevents that.

Normally this is something you don't have to worry about and people don't write code this way - by the time the user has moved the mouse again your routine has finished its work, you are on a single thread of execution and there is (usually) only one mouse. However with multi-touch you do have to worry about simultaneous events - one for each finger if you will.

My point is that multi-touch could break a lot of existing code.

Does anyone know if the base classes in Cocoa handle this problem as is?


========================================================
Ordering a new iMac TODAY. 2.4 GHz, 24", 4GB (OWC memory), 500GB :D

farmboy
Nov 23, 2007, 01:00 PM
You need to get around a little more. Microsoft debuted Microsoft Surface before Apple officially released the iphone.
http://www.microsoft.com/surface

You can't be serious. A "debut" usually means presenting a more or less finished product ready for release...that media event was more like presenting an R&D prototype, not fully functional, of a device which may never "Surface"). That is NOT BY YEARS OF WORK the same as releasing a finished product with much more capability and technical complexity, such as the iPhone.

And Apple "debuted" the iPhone in January, well before MS "debuted" the Surface, just in case any of you really care.

bmk
Nov 23, 2007, 01:10 PM
Surface HAS NO CURRENT USE. They are talking about something years in the future. It's a solution looking for a problem. When Steve Jobs show stuff at MacWorld, it's something that will come out THAT YEAR FOR SALE. Not in "2 years, maybe, if we can find venues to sell it through, maybe."

If that was the case, they should have demoed the iPhone in 2005.

Surface is currently nothing. Get over it. It looked interesting, but so does a lot of fake stuff that I see in movies. When it is something REAL that can be USED and BOUGHT, call me...ok?

:apple:

Calm down a bit. I'm not stupid and I'm not being sucked in by the MS Surface hype. Of course at the moment there are no current uses for it (or at least very few that I can see), and as I said, I don't have much faith in Ms's ability to deliver a working solution. But that's not to say that there won't ever be one, or that it won't lead to something that does change our current computing paradigm.

farmboy
Nov 23, 2007, 01:43 PM
Oh and as for Surface and when it was being developed. Sorry but I've been hearing rumors about this since 2003 when we had reps from MS doing then mobile experience tour for the Pocket PC. I use to lead the Pocket PC user group here in MN and I can tell you that there was rumblings about a gesture based interface back then.

Hmm. Same state but apparently different planets. Since when do "rumors" and "rumblings" constitute fact and/or prior art? There were rumors of an Apple phone since about 2000. The concept of gesture-based interfaces (as a broad concept) goes back before MS or Apple were created, in several science fiction works. So have the concepts of turning lead or straw into gold.

As is the case with all concepts (AND PATENTS), having an idea is one thing...but it doesn't count until it's reduced to practice.

GregA
Nov 23, 2007, 04:26 PM
I didn't say Microsoft released Surface before Apple "demoed" iphone. I said Microsoft debuted / demoed (semantics) before Apple "released" iphone. I was merely giving a time frame not suggesting that anyone stole or copied anything from anybody.
hehe...
okay... I just wrote the order of releases and attempted to understand what your point was. Who said you suggested someone stole?

GregA
Nov 23, 2007, 04:37 PM
I was looking at some open source Java code the other day and saw something interesting - the MouseAdapter routines were marked as synchronized. What this means is that only one process can be inside the routine at a time. If 2 different processes were using the same routine at the same time that could corrupt your data - marking the code as synchronized prevents that.
<snip>
with multi-touch you do have to worry about simultaneous events - one for each finger if you will.

My point is that multi-touch could break a lot of existing code.

I _think_ you'll find that in order for the OS to understand gesture and movements, to understand pinches (for zoom out) etc, you can't treat them as 2 separate events, you have to consider it as ONE gesture. (This is my guess, anyway)

Of course if a program expects a mouse position, sending 2 positions simultaneously won't help... the OS would need to provide single touch signals to programs that don't support multi touch. (even if they sent 2 simultaneous pointer positions, every developer would have to then interpret both and create their own gesture understandings)

I'm sure that whatever routines are used on the iPhone would be a closer match, do they solve the issue you describe?

ps. I think if Apple makes a tablet they'll have to break compatibility with all applications in order to force a different interface paradigm (in contrast to running regular OSX apps but without keyboard or multitouch)

pps. MS Surface does allow 2 independent people to work simultaneously on the table.

Rodimus Prime
Nov 23, 2007, 04:47 PM
people need to remember MS and Apple have to completely different markets. Apple main target is home users which means things can be demo and announcement short term because the public has very short term memory. Now MS target market is large companies. This means slower movement and they think more long term than the general public so a product announcement needs to come much father in advance so they have time to think about it and what they want.

This is a huge reason why there is such a large difference between the two. They are targeting completely different people. Apple would never make a product like surface except for home users which means a much shorter time span between announcement and release.

rockosmodurnlif
Nov 23, 2007, 05:44 PM
Damn it. You can't patent some of this crap! I mean really. Moving your finger backwards to erase. Good lord this has been don on PDA's for about a decade. Apple is going patent insane.


As long as the USPTO allows stupid patents, Apple and many others will continue to do so, difference is Apple doesn't sit on them and sue everyone that has anything remotely similar, its a defensive move on their part.


Short memory and not remember Y'z Dock or Winspose? In fact I was either reading this forum or Spymac, back in the day, when I heard about Winspose. The thread was basically "check this out, expose for windows", "wonder how long before Apple's lawyers find out", "they did, download isn't available anymore." Same thing happened to Y'z Dock.

The gesture of moving backwards to erase something has been around since the pencil with an eraser. It should be public domain by now. Oh wait, we're doing it on a touchscreen, how completely different. :rolleyes:

John Musbach
Nov 23, 2007, 06:52 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

PCJoint.com (http://pcjoint.com/multitouch-20-comes-to-apple-devices/) points to ongoing research by Apple into multi-touch technologies. The most recent patent applications reveal techniques to recognize both palm and finger contacts in order to react appropriately.

PCJoint summarizes the possibilities:


This should come as no surprise to those who have been following Apple's patent applications as well as their previous acquisition of Fingerworks (http://www.fingerworks.com). Previous patent applications (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/01/apple-researching-touch-surface-keyboard/) have also suggested the possibility of one surface acting for many different functions (such as typing and gestures).

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/22/advanced-multitouch-gesturing-patents/)

This is pretty awesome, what I'd really like to see myself though is the ability for consumers to have access to this technology: http://www.livescience.com/health/050317_brain_interface.html :cool:

Rodimus Prime
Nov 23, 2007, 06:52 PM
chance are I see this paten failing under the common sense rule. If some one can prove that it is just a very common sense thing for the next step of something that is open to everyone the paten gets thrown out.

Vontage won its law suit with Verizon that way. So the moving backwards to delete if apple tried to sue under that they have a good chance of losing because it is common sense because it already used on other forms of touch screen so it just common sense it will be used on a touch screen.

extensor
Nov 23, 2007, 07:12 PM
Right. Where would the Mac OS be without Xerox? The trick is being clever enough to know which ideas to steal.

Apple paid Xerox. How do you equate that to stealing??? :confused:

surferfromuk
Nov 24, 2007, 03:39 AM
Apple paid Xerox. How do you equate that to stealing??? :confused:

Fortunately Apple have Steve Jobs and he's on a roll ;

1: The only founder and pioneer of personal computing technology still in the game - the wealth of innate understanding this gives Apple is almost immeasurable.

2: Apple are 'off the blocks' with touch devices that are both a) shipping!, b) already incredible and c) running on the GUI Unix we call OSX - Everyone else is already in catchup mode and they are going to be struggling just to match an R1.0 OSX touch interface never mind what's coming in '08.

3: Apple have patented some pretty basic functionality and the success of the touch OS already suggests they got the basic 'interface paradigm' spot on and patented core functionality. Everyone else is going to struggle to 'reprogram' users into a different way of interacting on a touch devices. Let's remember nobody ever picked up a manual to use Apple's touch devices - it's that good!

4: MS are like a headless chicken running in all directions trying to capture all markets. They have zero focus and bloat is endemic.

Worse still MS are STILLprofitable solely because of technologies ( office/Windows) directly born from the original age of macintosh in 1984 - once again you can thank Steve Jobs for ALL of it!.

If MS loses Office they are finished - simple as that - nothing will hold up that monster - they are nothing without MS Office.

There's no denying Apple got lucky with the Ipod but it's fully empowered Steve Jobs' Apple renaissance.

So back to the original point - Zerox - to quote Steeley Dan ' you wouldn't know a diamond if you held it in your hand the things you think are precious I can't understand'

Steve Jobs mines diamonds and polishes them and ships millions of them!.
Balmer polishes turds and forces them onto the market with the money he makes from Office and Windows ( both stolen property).

bmk
Nov 24, 2007, 05:54 AM
Apple paid Xerox. How do you equate that to stealing??? :confused:

You're right - lazy shorthand on my part. I was using 'steal' in the technically incorrect way to mean 'impressed and influenced by'. Money changed hands - or at least Apple shares did - and 1,000,000 Apple shares (or however many it was) must be worth quite a lot by now.

odedia
Nov 24, 2007, 06:04 AM
12" tablet with gesture multi-touch display AND a real keyboard, this January? Heck, I'd buy it.

psychofreak
Nov 24, 2007, 06:16 AM
You need to get around a little more. Microsoft debuted Microsoft Surface before Apple officially released the iphone.
http://www.microsoft.com/surface

And Jeff Han showed off the technology ages before that...

Rot'nApple
Nov 24, 2007, 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by SiliconAddict
Apple copies MS. MS copies Apple. Apple gets a metric crap ton of technologies from open source. And it goes on and on and on.


Right. Where would the Mac OS be without Xerox? The trick is being clever enough to know which ideas to steal.

If Steve Jobs had demoed Surface at a Keynote, Mac devotees (me included) would have gone wild. It looks impressive and most people will have seen nothing like it before. However, it is being developed by Microsoft and whether they can implement a real life functioning product using the technology is pretty debatable. Now if Apple did to that kind of touch screen technology what it did to the Xerox graphical user interface...


No, the REAL trick is to know WHAT technology to "steal, borrow, or buy" and to make something out of it the public will want to consume. Apple didn't "invent" the mp3 digital music player but they did create the trifecta of mp3 player, iTunes software and the music store for a perfect combination of browsing, buying, storing and playing on your mobile player music and other downloads. I was so mad at Apple when the iPod first came out because I thought it was a waste of time since it was not a desktop/laptop computer from Apple. Good thing I'm not in charge because I didn't have the foresight to see the possibilities, however, as a stockholder, I am pleasantly pleased with the actions Apple has taken (so far). And that goes back to my original comment that the real trick is to know what to do with the "stolen, borrowed or bought" technology with regards to developing a product and marketing to the consumer a successful finished product.

My biggest gripe with regards to companies copying from Apple is the fact that they have to make their products so similar to form factor of Apples successes. Heck Chevrolet and Ford have their muscle cars, but the similarity ends with the word "muscle car". They are engineered and crafted with totally different body styles and other distinguishing features. However, from the iMac,...


http://www.macobserver.com/article/2001/06/06.12.shtml

to the iPod,...

http://us.lge.com/products/category/image/CHOCOLATE_A.jhtml


to the iPhone,...

http://us.lge.com/products/category/image/VOYAGER_A.jhtml



competitors come out with products that mimic Apple's - be "design" creative at least.

Heck, Steve Jobs even admitted during a keynote on an updated OS X release that Apple had "borrowed" a good idea from Microsoft, regarding the ability to switch to a different user account on the same computer, but that Apple had added Apple's flare for the extravagant and eye candy with regards to their version calling it fast user switching. That's all I'm saying, take the technology and make your own style and flare. Don't use a "round" nav wheel like LG's Chocolate or phone icons that copy Apples ie LG's Voyager phone's calendar icon, the "flower" in their MyPicures icon, using a "compass" in the VZ Navigator icon... come on...

RRK
Nov 24, 2007, 09:37 PM
Multi-touch is primarily designed to be used for small devices where a keyboard and mouse are not practical. It is not really intended to replace a full size keyboard and mouse in a desktop set-up.

It would be very impractical to be reaching 20 or 30 inches across your desktop rubbing your fingers all over your 30" cinema display. Talk about repetitive stress syndrome!

About the only good use for multi-touch in a desktop environment would be for a new tablet like device (similar to Wacom's Cintiq) or a display table like microsoft demoed this year.

Otherwise think, ipod, iphone, pda, or notebook trackpad.

I hear so many people repeat this about multi-touch on these boards and I just have to say that I disagree. Computing is ever-evolving and it is up to companies like Apple to figure out which way it might go. Anyway, I don't really want to say it but you have to think out of the box. Apple knows that computing is moving off of the desktop (palmtop, wallfront, car..somethin'...etc?). You seem to get it more then others but sheesh it seems like a lot of people limit their thoughts concerning multi-touch.

twoodcc
Nov 24, 2007, 09:59 PM
seems cool. hopefully this will be in that new mac tablet that's coming out soon :)

Plymouthbreezer
Nov 24, 2007, 11:14 PM
This only further stimulates my dreams for a revived MessagePad. Could we call it the 2200 perhaps?? :D

TurboSC
Nov 24, 2007, 11:39 PM
just give me my MacBookPro powerhouse ultracompact laptop with crazy touch doodads and I'll be content. I'm starting to foam at the mouth. :eek:

MonkeyClaw
Nov 25, 2007, 09:20 AM
I'm quite interested behind the logic behind 'Pretend to hold a pen or stylus in your hand and write something' with this multi-touch.

What do they mean? As in, just hold your hand in the shape of a way you'd hold a pen, and the screen will pick it up from your hand/palm shape? That surely is way too imprecise for writing? Anybody whos tried drawing on the iPhone/Touch knows what it feels like.

But what about actually holding a stylus or pen? Anybody who knows anything about multi-touch knows it is a capacitance surface. Which means it detects the electric signals in your fingers to rely on input, which makes it much more smoother than a pressure based system. Nintendo DS and PDAs are all pressure based, which allows them to use styluses, but also means when you use your finger, you have to press just that bit harder, and not this 'glide your fingers' beauty from multi-touch. Could they possibly make a battery operated stylus?

But we all know what Steve Jobs thinks of styluses. 'ew'

If Apple finds a good way around this then bravo, because it is genuinely a concern. Both technologies are great, and multi-touch is simply an amazing technology. But its still in its infancy, and it still has niggling problems. Like this.

Rant over :)

Otherwise this sounds really cool, albiet what we've heard for months.

What I was imagining was perhaps take your three fingers you would normally use to hold a pen or pencil. Now take then and just squish them together so that essentially you have your index and middle finger next to each other with your thumb in the center (not in between the two fingers but resting in the center of the two fingers). So what happens is if you look at that you see you sort of make a little point between the center of all three digits.

What I could see happening with this is if that becomes a gesture in that the software detects that thats what is on the screen and triangulates the center based on pressure points. That center would become essentially the tip of our imaginary stylus and thats where you would have your ink and what not appear on screen.

I dunno, that came to mind last night and i was playing around with it by just taking that "gesture" and dragging it all over the surface of my laptop (seeing as I don't have an iPhone or iPod Touch) and it seemed like if they could get the triangulation right, it could work.

thederby
Nov 25, 2007, 12:41 PM
before iphone, and before 'surface', there was the nyu FTIR project:

http://cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirtouch/

which was then spun off into perceptive pixel (http://www.perceptivepixel.com/).

here is a demo jeff gave in feb of 2006: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PLhMVNdplJc

kablooie
Nov 26, 2007, 10:41 AM
I've got a Fingerworks Multitouch full keyboard right here with me. It's really great and I'm glad Apple is taking the technology further. I can type on it but the error correction ability isn't quite up to my poor typing. The iPhone seems to have solved this though. The two halves are angled so it works great ergonomically.

The big problem I have with it is that since upgrading to a new aluminum imac and Leopard, it's stopped working.
Grrrr.

I hope they come out with a product soon. It's a fantastic technology. I miss it.

kdarling
Nov 26, 2007, 10:42 PM
we're definitely gonna see a big change in the way in which one will interact w/ a computer pretty soon. seriously, how much longer can they drag out the mouse/keyboard set-up?

The mouse and keyboard will be around for general / business use for a long time, at least until brain reading comes along, and probably after that. (Voice input is also no good... disturbs everyone nearby.)

I'm on a touchscreen laptop right now. They've been around for many years. Why don't you have one? Because it's not that useful outside of a few situations.

As someone else has already mentioned, why raise my arm to the screen, and why try to touch-type on a hard flat surface? Mouse and keyboard = much easier / faster, and you don't cover up what you're working on (a major touchscreen con).

On the other hand, my daughter used a touch screen exclusively to surf the web from age one to three. Now even she uses a mouse.