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MacRumors
Nov 27, 2007, 11:11 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Retuers reports (http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUKL2738840920071127) on Orange's expectations for iPhone sales in France. Orange expects to sell nearly 100,000 iPhones by the end of 2007 after its launch later this Wednesday.

MacScoop reported (http://www.macscoop.com/articles/2007/11/21/orange-subscription-plans-iphone-revealed) on the leaked rate plans for the French iPhone last week. The rate plans were revealed on iphone.orange.fr (http://iphone.orange.fr/). Pricing points include 49 euro/mo, 59 euro/mo, 79 euro/mo, and 119 euro/mo.

Orange will also be offering an unlocked iPhone. The Reuters article provides no details on the price of the unlocked iPhone but places it "significantly lower" than the unlocked German iPhone.

The MacScoop report, however, indicates that the French iPhone will be unlockable even before the typical 6 month wait-time for only 100 euro. While on the surface this seems much cheaper than the German pricing, it does not appear that this removes the 2 year contract requirement with Orange. This means that while you can buy an unlocked iPhone in France for 499 euro (399 + 100), the main advantage will be to avoid roaming charges when traveling as you are still contractually obligated to Orange. Meanwhile, the unlocked German iPhone has no contract requirement, but comes at a higher cost. These details have not been confirmed by Orange. Official announcements will be made on Wednesday.


Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/27/iphone-france-launch-and-unlocked-iphones-100-euro/)



windowsblowsass
Nov 27, 2007, 11:14 AM
it really is amazing what jobs has been able to accomplish.

studiomusic
Nov 27, 2007, 11:15 AM
That would be sweet to unlock my iphone for 100 euro in December when I'll be there... they probably won't do that for me though as I'm with AT&T.
Too bad, I'll have to hack it then to not be charged HUGE roaming fees.

lofight
Nov 27, 2007, 11:16 AM
yes it's amazing what jobs accomplished, i also read the forbes article of jobs being the most powerful person, interesting...

Macnoviz
Nov 27, 2007, 11:16 AM
but how can an unlocked cellphone be bound by a contract?

Over Achiever
Nov 27, 2007, 11:16 AM
How much is the cancellation fee with Orange? Add that to the 100 euro, it shouldn't be too bad, right?

ebouwman
Nov 27, 2007, 11:16 AM
how can you have an unlocked iPhone, and still have contracts that partially lock you to orange? Then it isn't really an unlocked iPhone.

ebouwman
Nov 27, 2007, 11:18 AM
yes it's amazing what jobs accomplished, i also read the forbes article of jobs being the most powerful person, interesting...

yes he is, because imagine if he started to backmask secret messages into iPods:eek: Then he would have an army of teenagers at his side :rolleyes:
hahaha

studiomusic
Nov 27, 2007, 11:19 AM
You still are in a contract with Orange. But, your iphone is unlocked for roaming.

Mydel
Nov 27, 2007, 11:26 AM
Yeah thats seems acceptable. German 999 Eur is waaaay to much..

manu chao
Nov 27, 2007, 11:29 AM
The German mobile phone provider Debitel is offering customers a 600 Euro voucher for using the iPhone with them. Its cheapest offer is only 39 Euro per month (against 49 Euro with T-mobile) and includes 100 min and 100 SMS (against 100 min and 40 SMS with T-mobile).

http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/mobil/0,1518,520006,00.html

goosnarrggh
Nov 27, 2007, 11:31 AM
but how can an unlocked cellphone be bound by a contract?

Once you pay the unlocking fee, you've basically taken what used to be 1 unified entity (phone+contract) and converted it into two separate entities - a phone on the one hand, and a contract on the other. Both entities continue to exist separately.

The phone itself is no longer bound by the contract - conceivably, it would be possible to pop out the original SIM card and install other SIM cards connected to whatever service provider you like. So you can travel about and use a local carrier wherever you go to avoid roaming charges.

However, YOU will still be bound by the original contract, requiring you to make regular monthly payments to Orange. (Or if the contract allows for it, you may be able to temporarily suspend the payments while travelling, or maybe even pay an early termination fee to get out of the contract early.)

Whether or not you choose to exercise the rights that have been granted to you under that contract by plugging in your SIM card and placing phone calls (or even whether you choose to plug the SIM card into the iPhone versus any other GSM phone) is a separate issue.

shadowfax
Nov 27, 2007, 11:32 AM
but how can an unlocked cellphone be bound by a contract?

no phone, locked or unlocked, can ever be locked to a contract. YOU are locked to a contract and your phone is locked to a carrier. now, you can opt out of your contract for a nominal fee, but your phone is still locked. you can also pay to get your phone unlocked from a carrier to put in other SIMs, but YOU are still under contract to the network. you have to opt out of contract and pay to have your phone unlocked to be completely free.

CalfCanuck
Nov 27, 2007, 11:37 AM
how can you have an unlocked iPhone, and still have contracts that partially lock you to orange? Then it isn't really an unlocked iPhone.
Since you buy the phone from Orange, I assume they set up the contract during the purchase.

The unlocking allows you to use other SIM cards in the phone - this is quite normal when traveling. You can buy a "pay as you go" Austrain or Spanish SIM card when you are in Vienna or Madrid for 30 euro, for example, and then you'd be paying local prices that might be 80% cheaper than roaming with your French cell phone number in those countries.

And if you travel to a country a couple of times a year, you can keep the same number and just "top it off" each time you come back to the country.

Macinposh
Nov 27, 2007, 11:38 AM
it really is amazing what jobs has been able to accomplish.


Yes,that is true.

He has taken greed to a completely new level AND is getting good press all around the world. Not only from media,but from the fans as well..

People in the telecommunications business on this side of the pond are really awestruck how apple has managed to fix this thing.

I only fear that apples arrogant behiavour will start a backlash soon on it.
The big operators and manufacturers (nokia,sonyeriksson) have allready started it΄s lobbying to try to restrict/hinder apples rampage.
Soon apple might face same kind of trouble that microsoft is facing.
Both on the tele side and on computer side.

And that will hit it΄s stock hard.
Prepare to buy some shares...

mpw
Nov 27, 2007, 11:46 AM
Yeah thats seems acceptable. German 999 Eur is waaaay to much..
€967 isn't waaaay cheaper than €999 though is it? and I don't know if those prices include sales taxes at the same rates either.

EDIT: Sorry my sums were off the french price is €1,087 for a 12month contract at €49, and I still don't account for taxes

Hattig
Nov 27, 2007, 11:48 AM
49€/mo Plan:
- 2 hours + 2 (late evening or week-end) hours of voice calls:
- 50 SMS
- 10 hours of Orange Wifi
- Unlimited VoiceMail, E-Mail and data

59€/mo Plan:
- 3 hours + 3 (late evening or week-end) hours of voice calls:
- 100 SMS
- 10 hours of Orange Wifi
- Unlimited VoiceMail, E-Mail and EDGE data

79€/mo Plan:
- 5 hours + 5 (late evening or week-end) hours of voice calls:
- 150 SMS
- 10 hours of Orange Wifi
- Unlimited VoiceMail, E-Mail and EDGE data

119€/mo Plan:
- 8 hours + 8 hours of voice calls:
- 1000 SMS
- 100 hours of Orange Wifi
- Unlimited VoiceMail, E-Mail and EDGE data


Oh dear. Is the 49 Euro plan not even using EDGE, or is that a typo? The limits on SMS are simply ridiculous, they might not be free for the provider but they're an easy place to add value, and 50/100/150 at those prices is simply retarded. Unless the French mobile market is years behind the UK, never mind Asia anyway. Let's not talk about the pitiful voice hours...

Hattig
Nov 27, 2007, 11:49 AM
€967 isn't waaaay cheaper than €999 though is it? and I don't know if those prices include sales taxes at the same rates either.

EDIT: Sorry my sums were off the french price is €1,087 for a 12month contract at €49, and I still don't account for taxes

VAT is always included in quoted prices in Europe.

freediverdude
Nov 27, 2007, 11:51 AM
A 600 euro voucher?? So this Debitel is saying "We'll give you 600 euros of free service (probably a year's worth), if you'll pay 600 euros to unlock your phone and switch to us"? I don't see how they could make much money- they're not selling the phone, and giving away service. Unless they restrict how much of the voucher you can use at a time or something.

voodoofish
Nov 27, 2007, 11:52 AM
how can you have an unlocked iPhone, and still have contracts that partially lock you to orange? Then it isn't really an unlocked iPhone.

It might help to think about it this way - you break your phone. do you have to stop paying the contract you took out when you bought the phone? no.

so in the same way, just because a phone you buy will let you put another sim card into it, it doesn't mean you can stop paying the contract you took out when you bought the phone - just as if the phone broke you would still have to keep the contract. the contract is 'separate', if you like, to the phone. you loose the phone, you don't loose the contract.

if you buy an unlocked phone without a contract (ie. on pay as you go, or you buy it separate from any network completely, or you buy it from a network but without a contract) then obvs you don't have to keep paying a contract.

when you buy an iphone you don't sign a contract, but when you activate it you do. so presumably, in order to activate the unlocked iphone in france you have to sign up to a contract with orange. this really isn't much different to when you go into a mobile phone shop, sign a contract and then walk out with a phone which is unlocked, but you are still bound by the contract you just signed.

d.f
Nov 27, 2007, 11:54 AM
how can you have an unlocked iPhone, and still have contracts that partially lock you to orange? Then it isn't really an unlocked iPhone.


i'm in the UK. i have an annual ORANGE contract with no monthly fee's, (it does have high call costs).... i haven't used it in 2 years. but i still have the contract. it benefits me in other ways. so, i suppose this is how it will work.

IF they do have a similar, no monthly fee / high standard costs tariff, then this will be the route to take for a unlocked, reasonably priced, on any network iPhone (sourced from France)

i personally don't think Apple care much about the idea of more unlocked phones than locked. initially it was a scary new market (phones) and revenue sharing (with exclusive carriers) was sensible. but they are by now VERY aware of the restrictions in being single carrier only, especially in more advance mobile markets like Europe and next Asia.

they're still making a profit on the handsets and will do by way of the revenue genrating applications that will come next year.

they will have to maintain publicly their support for their exclusive carrier, of course, but they'll know that if a local EU law forces them to offer these offical unlocked handsets, then so be it. they can work with that too.

just speculating, but here in the UK, o2 (which i am on, although unlocked) has hurt them HARD. i've had many co-workers come to my desk just to play with it repeatedly, but they cannot justify having to be tied to o2 with their specific iPhone tarrifs, when they're getting any other phone for FREE on any provider and on any of their suitable tarrifs.

the iPhone is simply too good to be tied down. all i'm missing is visual voicemail. i miss MMS more as i never had VV to begin with. So it's not a big selling point as far as i can see.

2 pennies over.

voodoofish
Nov 27, 2007, 12:03 PM
i'm in the UK. i have an annual ORANGE contract with no monthly fee's, (it does have high call costs).... i haven't used it in 2 years. but i still have the contract. it benefits me in other ways. so, i suppose this is how it will work.

IF they do have a similar, no monthly fee / high standard costs tariff, then this will be the route to take for a unlocked, reasonably priced, on any network iPhone (sourced from France)

You're on the OVP Virgin Tariff right? If they had a tariff like that, which i doubt they do, they won't let you sign up to it with the iphone - they'll make you sign up to an iphone tariff in order to activate the iphone, which, presumably, once you've done, if you paid the €100 extra, your iphone will be activated and unlocked, but you'll have signed the contract. (orange uk also don't let new customers sign up to any OVP tariffs any more btw)


thinking about it, i'm not sure that would pass the french regulation... i don't know the french regulation, but it would seem a bit silly for the law to say you need to sell the phone unlocked, but you can choose to only sell it with a contract - what would be the point in that law?

arn
Nov 27, 2007, 12:09 PM
hmm, for what its worth

http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/27/oranges-unlocked-iphone-to-cost-well-below-1-000-euros/


France Telecom CEO Didier Lombard has apparently dropped a few less-than-specific details on the matter in a recent interview, saying that it'll cost "over 500 euros, but well below 1,000 euros."

Unspeaked
Nov 27, 2007, 12:14 PM
The real question here is how much does it cost to A) buy the French iPhone B) get it unlocked and C) terminate your contract.

If that's less than the German price, it's a deal. If not, there's no difference (or it could be worse!)...

EagerDragon
Nov 27, 2007, 12:20 PM
but how can an unlocked cellphone be bound by a contract?

The person is locked to the contract not the phone. As long as you pay your monthly fee, nobody cares what brand of phone you use on that service.

Depends on the language of the contract and the laws of the country. It is possible that there is a termination fee in one country and in another where the contract can not be canceled at all as long as the service provider provides "reasonable effort" to provide the service it contracted with.

If you can get it unlocked and then terminate the contract then you are home free, however cell service providers all suck, some worst than others at one time or another. Those unlocking the phone to go with another carrier, may or may not be better off.

nja247
Nov 27, 2007, 12:31 PM
How much is the cancellation fee with Orange? Add that to the 100 euro, it shouldn't be too bad, right?

Wonder what happens when you pay extra for the unlock and then activate/unlock with iTunes (assuming it's like German unlocks) and then cancel the contract within the 14 day cooling off period? just a thought...

swagi
Nov 27, 2007, 12:33 PM
A 600 euro voucher?? So this Debitel is saying "We'll give you 600 euros of free service (probably a year's worth), if you'll pay 600 euros to unlock your phone and switch to us"? I don't see how they could make much money- they're not selling the phone, and giving away service. Unless they restrict how much of the voucher you can use at a time or something.

Actually you can't compare the prices, cause Debitel hasn't named their tariffs yet. Anyway they can make a ton of money on data transfers (which may not be bundled). So selling you no unlimited Data but charging 1-2 € per MB of data...well, that kan make an enourmous amount of money. Especially when you start using Mail on your iPhone.

slb6r
Nov 27, 2007, 12:37 PM
Interesting, if it is true that Debitel will give you a 600 Euro voucher. Apple wanted to avoid, it seems, to have the iPhone available on every network and being "heavily" discounted by phone companies. But that would basically happen if more companies follow Debitel. You buy the iPhone from T-Mobile for $999, get a voucher from the carrier of your choice over $600 and sign their contract or prepaid plan. So, the iPhone in the market costs $399 and is available on any network.

macfrog
Nov 27, 2007, 12:41 PM
Note that if it's true that you will have the option to unlock your iPhone for a 100€ fee if you have purchased it with a contract, Orange will also offer the iPhone without any contract for a premium - Didier Lombard (Orange's CEO) said this morning that the price of an unlocked iPhone without a contract will be between significantly lower than 999 euros (reacting to the price T-Mobile is selling an unlocked iphone in Germany following court decision). Final details will be published tomorrow morning (Paris time) before the D-Day.

brucku
Nov 27, 2007, 12:46 PM
Man - It would be awesome if Apple would offer the unlocking for $99 to us in the USA. You could buy the phone, sign up for the required AT&T contract, then pay $99 to unlock it. I'd be much happier, as I could use the phone while traveling in europe.

Instead - its going to make americans buy their phones unlocked from france, and then use them on AT&T's network.

Guess you could still do that, but most of us already own our iphones.

armani
Nov 27, 2007, 12:57 PM
Could not make a new thread....

I found this http://www.greenpeace.org/canada/en/recent/scientific-tests-reveal-iphone

oorosh
Nov 27, 2007, 01:05 PM
iphone prices in France...

Bouygues: 299 Euro
Virgin 389 Euro
Tele2: 369 Euro
Unlocked: 679 Euro

Source:
http://www3.phoneandphone.com/search/?p=Apple_iPhone%208Go&action=item&idp=719&idc=1&ido=0

manu chao
Nov 27, 2007, 01:36 PM
Actually you can't compare the prices, cause Debitel hasn't named their tariffs yet. Anyway they can make a ton of money on data transfers (which may not be bundled). So selling you no unlimited Data but charging 1-2 € per MB of data...well, that kan make an enourmous amount of money.

According to this German link:
http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/mobil/0,1518,520006,00.html
40 Euros includes unlimited data.

This Reuters story is less detailed:
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUKL27177020071127?rpc=44

Macnoviz
Nov 27, 2007, 01:41 PM
Man - It would be awesome if Apple would offer the unlocking for $99 to us in the USA. You could buy the phone, sign up for the required AT&T contract, then pay $99 to unlock it. I'd be much happier, as I could use the phone while traveling in europe.

Instead - its going to make americans buy their phones unlocked from france, and then use them on AT&T's network.

Guess you could still do that, but most of us already own our iphones.

Though you would then have to pay both your original contract and your new contract...

twoodcc
Nov 27, 2007, 01:50 PM
but how can an unlocked cellphone be bound by a contract?

my thoughts also. it will be interesting to see what the real plan is when it's released

Unspeaked
Nov 27, 2007, 02:09 PM
my thoughts also. it will be interesting to see what the real plan is when it's released

As many have said before, the terms "unlocked" and "contract" have nothing to do with one another.

A phone can be locked to a carrier and not be on any contract. It can be unlocked from a carrier and be on a long term contract. It's the phone that's locked or not, not the contract.

MacsRgr8
Nov 27, 2007, 04:15 PM
Could not make a new thread....

I found this http://www.greenpeace.org/canada/en/recent/scientific-tests-reveal-iphone

:rolleyes:

sudo find / -name *greenpeace* -delete <ENTER>

mpw
Nov 27, 2007, 04:29 PM
The real question here is how much does it cost to A) buy the French iPhone B) get it unlocked and C) terminate your contract.

If that's less than the German price, it's a deal. If not, there's no difference (or it could be worse!)...

All of which were already answered before you asked.

christian_k
Nov 28, 2007, 05:35 AM
According to the well known German news site
golem.de iPhone will start in France on November 29th.

A locked device with a contract (Orange) will cost 399 € as usual.
You can get a locked device without contract for 649 €, of course
this makes most sense if you already have an Orange contract.

It will cost you another 100€ to have it unlocked (or free after 6 months). So an unlocked / contract free iPhone will cost you 749 €.

Original News (in German):
http://www.golem.de/0711/56247.html

Edit: If you want an iPhone with a new contract from Orange and don't want to have any of the special iPhone contracts but an other Orange tarif, you can get a (locked) device for 549 from them.

I think it won't be easy for Deutsche Telekom to justify 999 € at the court. Thanks to the EU it will be easy for German customers to get a device from France.

Christian

StuB
Nov 28, 2007, 07:29 AM
Just posted this in a thread on the iPhone forum (thread now closed):

http://www.macworld.co.uk/ipod-itune...m?newsid=19796

Seems to back up the other stories that have been mentioned.

arn
Nov 28, 2007, 09:09 AM
I'm still trying to get my head around the price points.

399 -> contract
549 -> no contract, but tied to orange?
649 -> no contract, not tied to orange?

+ 100 -> unlocked?

How is it tied to orange for 549? There are conflicting reports out there.

arn

Unspeaked
Nov 28, 2007, 11:19 AM
All of which were already answered before you asked.

Could you point out the post giving us the termination fee because I can't seem to find it...?

JFreak
Nov 28, 2007, 11:32 AM
999 Eur is waaaay to much..

That's what unlocked smartphones have always cost, like it or not. That's why subscriptions look like a good deal like the first 6 months or so.

mpw
Nov 28, 2007, 12:10 PM
Could you point out the post giving us the termination fee because I can't seem to find it...?

Opps, sorry. Still 2 outta three ain't bad:o

Unspeaked
Nov 28, 2007, 12:15 PM
Opps, sorry. Still 2 outta three ain't bad:o

Unfortunately, that's the one I'm most interested in.

Termination fees can be so high that it would totally dwarf the other two figures combined...

cpatch
Nov 28, 2007, 12:25 PM
FWIW, it's "Reuters," not "Retuers."

mpw
Nov 28, 2007, 12:25 PM
Unfortunately, that's the one I'm most interested in.

Termination fees can be so high that it would totally dwarf the other two figures combined...
I can't see anything on the website, but if I were Orange I'd be tempted to recoup the total price of the contract as a 'termination fee' and I wouldn't feel it unreasonable.

Anyway from the other thread on this subject it looks like you can buy an official unlocked phone, sans contract for €749 or £533. That price puts it way up there with the Nokia e90, a fully featured smartphone and way above the SE P1i, again fully featured. It also puts it way above a lot of other similar less-smartphones. Just how much effort and cost are people going to go to for the Apple name and the iPod ease of use?

Macinposh
Nov 28, 2007, 12:38 PM
That's what unlocked smartphones have always cost, like it or not. That's why subscriptions look like a good deal like the first 6 months or so.

I have to disagree.
Median price range is around 650€: SonyErikson,FSC (while they still made them),HTC,Moto etc..

Only few models actually are close to the 999€ range,like nokias communicator E90,thank god..

mpw
Nov 28, 2007, 02:10 PM
...Only few models actually are close to the 999€ range,like nokias communicator E90,thank god..
You get what you pays for, the E90 is a proper smartphone:)

John Musbach
Dec 1, 2007, 07:35 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Retuers reports (http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUKL2738840920071127) on Orange's expectations for iPhone sales in France. Orange expects to sell nearly 100,000 iPhones by the end of 2007 after its launch later this Wednesday.

MacScoop reported (http://www.macscoop.com/articles/2007/11/21/orange-subscription-plans-iphone-revealed) on the leaked rate plans for the French iPhone last week. The rate plans were revealed on iphone.orange.fr (http://iphone.orange.fr/). Pricing points include 49 euro/mo, 59 euro/mo, 79 euro/mo, and 119 euro/mo.

Orange will also be offering an unlocked iPhone. The Reuters article provides no details on the price of the unlocked iPhone but places it "significantly lower" than the unlocked German iPhone.

The MacScoop report, however, indicates that the French iPhone will be unlockable even before the typical 6 month wait-time for only 100 euro. While on the surface this seems much cheaper than the German pricing, it does not appear that this removes the 2 year contract requirement with Orange. This means that while you can buy an unlocked iPhone in France for 499 euro (399 + 100), the main advantage will be to avoid roaming charges when traveling as you are still contractually obligated to Orange. Meanwhile, the unlocked German iPhone has no contract requirement, but comes at a higher cost. These details have not been confirmed by Orange. Official announcements will be made on Wednesday.


Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/27/iphone-france-launch-and-unlocked-iphones-100-euro/)

This is great, now if only someone would be willing to import these unlocked iPhones from Germany or France to the US... :D

ABM
Dec 2, 2007, 07:10 AM
This is great, now if only someone would be willing to import these unlocked iPhones from Germany or France to the US... :D

That doesn't make any sense... 649 € = 947.54 USD (@ current exchange rate: 1.46)