Mac Pro now or wait?

[badlydrawnboy]

I'm a digital photographer currently using a G5 dual-core 2.0Ghz. I'd like to upgrade to a Mac Pro. I use Photoshop CS3 and Lightroom primarily. No 3D, no video rendering, no gaming. Just 25-250MB digital image files.

I was planning to wait for the rumored Penryn Mac Pro in January. However, in another forum (Mac Gurus, where they write extensively on optimizing Macs for Photoshop use), the moderator said that Photoshop can't really take advantage of 8-cores anyhow, so the speed difference between the current Mac Pros and the Penryn's is likely to be negligible for my usage. He said if I was doing video and 3D, it would be different.

What do you all think of that? One advantage to buying now is that I could get a refurb for a substantial discount, and use the extra $$ to buy more RAM and fast hard drives - which would arguably have a bigger effect on system/Photoshop performance than the new Penryn processor.

Comments?

[techlover828]

I'm a digital photographer currently using a G5 dual-core 2.0Ghz. I'd like to upgrade to a Mac Pro. I use Photoshop CS3 and Lightroom primarily. No 3D, no video rendering, no gaming. Just 25-250MB digital image files.

I was planning to wait for the rumored Penryn Mac Pro in January. However, in another forum (Mac Gurus, where they write extensively on optimizing Macs for Photoshop use), the moderator said that Photoshop can't really take advantage of 8-cores anyhow, so the speed difference between the current Mac Pros and the Penryn's is likely to be negligible for my usage. He said if I was doing video and 3D, it would be different.

What do you all think of that? One advantage to buying now is that I could get a refurb for a substantial discount, and use the extra $$ to buy more RAM and fast hard drives - which would arguably have a bigger effect on system/Photoshop performance than the new Penryn processor.

Comments?

I think that down the road more programs will be able to take advantage of 8-cores and more advanced processors so I'd say its worth the wait, especially since it is only two months away.

[Sean Dempsey]

If you want it now, and can use it now, and the money isn't going to break the bank, I say do it.

I got my Mac Pro in July, when they were supposed to be released "in august"... well now it's November and my Mac Pro still rocks.

If you can find one used or refurb'd, that's not a bad bet. If you like and can afford the current Mac Pro, why not? What makes you so sure that you're going to like/afford the next revision anyways? Maybe the price is higher, maybe it is missing a feature you want.

Fact is, Mac Pro 2.0 is still 100% Vaporhardware.

[jnc]

I couldn't justify a Mac Pro at full price this late into a "cycle" (16 months! I thought Intel was meant to speed everything up), but I suppose if you can get a sizable enough discount and it won't pinch you if a new model unearths itself in the next two months... eh, go nuts.

The computer won't suddenly turn into a steaming piece of crap because the innards got updated.

[gauchogolfer]

You should always wait for the next thing. Something better is coming right around the corner.

[olliebraves20]

I would wait until January....unless you NEED it now.....there is no harm in waiting to see what comes out. I would highly doubt that it is going to lose a feature you would need. Apple is pretty good about adding features or making the product better not taking them away. You also have to look at the future...right now you might not need the extra power that the penryn can produce but in a year or two you might be glad you have it as apps constantly get bigger and more intensive....however this is just my opinion....

[badlydrawnboy]

I don't absolutely need it now, and I guess if I did wait and still decided to get the "old" Mac Pro model the deals would be even better.

[olliebraves20]

Yeah exactly...so since you don't need it now I really can't think of one reason to get it now...

[OnePumpChump]

Yeah exactly...so since you don't need it now I really can't think of one reason to get it now...

I would also wait. Theoretically, the more curent your macpro is, it should be able to keep up with all of the new programs that will eventually come out (up to a certain point). But the more demanding these programs get, at least you will be well equipped. But again, that if you can wait. Good luck with your decision!:apple:

[JesterJJZ]

I try to buy right after an update happens. That way you get the most out of it.

[Quash]

By all means wait! The dual G5 is still a nice setup.

Yes the current quad 2.66 will do more then fine for now.
But in computing terms it's already halfway into it's lifespan.

In a year from now it's gonna be outperformed by the new Quad core (nehalem) iMac. That's not something your gonna be happy about after spending so much cash on a machine

If apple offers 8 core configs at a reasonable price in the next mac pro, i would take em. I agree there is not much use for em now. But in 2 years octo core will be pretty much standard on all performance pc's (maybe even in less time), and software will have addepted. Having 8 cores then will extend the life of your new mac pro by at least a year then.

At the least your gonna get a faster bus and cpu speed which should increase system performance at least by 40% and for another max. 2 months i would even wait for that. But like i said get 8 core if you can ;)

The new mac pro will come somewhere in January, based on the fact that all the other big vendors will be shipping em then. So the supply will be there.
So by all means wait :)

[Mr.Noisy]

I don't absolutely need it now, and I guess if I did wait and still decided to get the "old" Mac Pro model the deals would be even better.

and the 'old' mac pro with CS3 rocks, Granted when the new MP's come out, there wil be plenty of bargains out there on old 2.66's , i could have waited till 2008 before upgrading but i got mine in back May, and hell i'm so glad i didn't wait, it's a fantastic bit of kit, hell i might just treat myself to an 8 core too :D

[Macinposh]

Dont bother waiting.

I am a photog too,using LR and PS.
PS is so poorly optimized atm,that your 8 core wouldnt be of much benefit there.
PS runs on most tasks at 100-150% speed,occasionally at 300% with some filters. That is of 400% of 4 core system...
Next Adobe CS update is over a year away, and there is no clear sign that Adobe can actually change their code to support for 4+ cores.
So,basically,the next CS4 might be as almost as poorly multicore aware as it is today...

So get the computer now,max it out with mem and set up a good interal raid.
That will be a workhorse for the next few years.

[withuk]

Does anyone know when the hardware updates will be in January?

Also does anyone know what the likelyhood is of it not happening in January? I can wait till then but any longer and it would be a problem.

[TripleCore]

Does anyone know when the hardware updates will be in January?

Also does anyone know what the likelyhood is of it not happening in January? I can wait till then but any longer and it would be a problem.

Steve Jobs.

[Quash]

Does anyone know when the hardware updates will be in January?

Also does anyone know what the likelyhood is of it not happening in January? I can wait till then but any longer and it would be a problem.

Well it is very unlikely that they are not upgraded then. All other pc vendors are starting selling/delivering them in january. They can't wait for the next gen intel cpu as that is certainly a year away. And i doubt intel would even keep making the current processors that long for reasonable prices.

So yes they will very likely update at macworld. It makes no sense to not update.

[suneohair]

Wait. You would be wasting your money if you didn't.

[withuk]

Do you think if they are introduced at Macworld 2008, they will make them available in the UK at the same time?

[suneohair]

Do you think if they are introduced at Macworld 2008, they will make them available in the UK at the same time?

Probably.

[jnc]

Do you think if they are introduced at Macworld 2008, they will make them available in the UK at the same time?

the only product I know of that hasn't seen a simulataneous US - UK release is the iPhone.

[skasol]

I was in your same shoes a couple months ago (2) but I found a sick deal and I jumped on it. there was a mac pro 2.66 with 1gb of ram and a 500gb HD for 999.99 so I got it for that price.

I added 4 more gigs of ram and I have been happy.
bottom line if you want one now, and you could get a great deal go for it.

[suneohair]

I was in your same shoes a couple months ago (2) but I found a sick deal and I jumped on it. there was a mac pro 2.66 with 1gb of ram and a 500gb HD for 999.99 so I got it for that price.

I added 4 more gigs of ram and I have been happy.
bottom line if you want one now, and you could get a great deal go for it.

I call bull on this one.

[drawstring]

the BIGGEST advantage to buying now is you have it now, and you get to use it now.

generally, i follow the philosophy of buying what you need when you need it.

when i was 10 years old, i wanted a specific pair of shoes, but my feet kept growing. so i wore only socks for two months until my feet were big enough to fit into the shoes.

....didn't make sense then, and doesn't now.

[GoKyu]

I'm in a similar sitauation too (basically running most of the CS3 apps / Lightroom), but I've been waiting a lot longer...I had to wait for Leopard (since it was coming out a few months down the line), and now all this news about the new Mac Pro....*argh*

I'm so close to just putting the money on the table and getting one now, but what others have said really struck a nerve with me - I *don't* wanna put all this money into a machine that's so old and is likely to be updated in another month and a half.

But if for some reason it doesn't happen at Macworld, I'm not waiting any longer than that...

-Bryan

[Mr.Noisy]

But if for some reason it doesn't happen at Macworld, I'm not waiting any longer than that...

-Bryan


A Lot of people are depending on macworld, but if it doesn't happen then, are you still willing to wait, and wait, and wait ??
i use cs3 apps and am happy, 8 cores wont make any difference to cs3 apps, Strikes me a lot of people have missed out on Mac Pro's with the promise of updated MP's coming soon, buy now, update later, why miss out, you will always be able to shift a mac pro when the times right :)

[suneohair]

A Lot of people are depending on macworld, but if it doesn't happen then, are you still willing to wait, and wait, and wait ??
i use cs3 apps and am happy, 8 cores wont make any difference to cs3 apps, Strikes me a lot of people have missed out on Mac Pro's with the promise of updated MP's coming soon, buy now, update later, why miss out, you will always be able to shift a mac pro when the times right :)

No, in a single CS3 app, eight-cores will be wasted. But most people... multi-task gasp!!! :eek: PS, LR, etc etc. I for one am not running one app at a time. That is the beauty of our multi-core age. This "it doesn't utilize all the CPUs for this one filter!" has to be one of the dumbest I have heard in awhile. It doesn't need to. And to some degree, it can only do it so fast, there are may other limiting factors in todays machines that may only allow for one-core to be used in any given task. Plus, the fact that it does use more than one core at a time suggests it has the ability to use all the cores, it just might not need to do that. So judging an app with no technical knowledge of how it was written, and solely on how much you "cpu meter" reads is about as useful as a talking to a rock. I am baffled by those who want to see 100% utilization to feel like their hardware is being used properly.

This buy now and update later crap is really stupid, and terribly bad advice. I don't see a point in buying a vastly outdated machine today only to have it lose a ton of value in a few months. If the Mac Pro goes all eight-core, you can expect current Mac Pros to plummet in price. Probably close to Quad G5 levels. How is it a smart financial decision to do that?

I don't really feel I have missed out on anything. The current Mac Pro was the same Mac Pro it was in August of 2006. What am I missing in late 2007? Oh, I am missing the chance to blow my money on a computer that is outdated... oh.

[Mr.Noisy]

This buy now and update later crap is really stupid, and terribly bad advice. I don't see a point in buying a vastly outdated machine today only to have it lose a ton of value in a few months. If the Mac Pro goes all eight-core, you can expect current Mac Pros to plummet in price. Probably close to Quad G5 levels. How is it a smart financial decision to do that?

I don't really feel I have missed out on anything. The current Mac Pro was the same Mac Pro it was in August of 2006. What am I missing in late 2007? Oh, I am missing the chance to blow my money on a computer that is outdated... oh.

Most people buying the Mac Pro can afford the lose, If the machines making them money anyway, whats a few hundred quid ???
why sit back waiting for the updates, strikes me your getting a little heated with all this going on, is it that you really wish you had invested and missed your chance?? me personally as soon as ive run this MP into the ground i'll just pop to the apple store and order a new one, unless the updates are worth it, then i'll get one when they are released, no big deal only a few grand :eek:

[OnePumpChump]

This buy now and update later crap is really stupid, and terribly bad advice. I don't see a point in buying a vastly outdated machine today only to have it lose a ton of value in a few months. If the Mac Pro goes all eight-core, you can expect current Mac Pros to plummet in price. Probably close to Quad G5 levels. How is it a smart financial decision to do that?

Exactly. Why is it so hard for everyone to understand this? If you can afford to wait, wait. You would just be throwing your money away if you didn't.

[GoKyu]

This will be my first Mac (been using PCs since about '89, and a C-64 before that, till '94 ;) ), and it's really been a long time in coming.

I want to run away screaming from Windows (and I'm still running *XP* - Thank God I didn't upgrade to Vista...) and just get into a better OS and hardware setup.

So....HURRY UP APPLE!!! :)

-Bryan

[Macinposh]

No, in a single CS3 app, eight-cores will be wasted. But most people... multi-task gasp!!! :eek: PS, LR, etc etc. I for one am not running one app at a time. That is the beauty of our multi-core age. This "it doesn't utilize all the CPUs for this one filter!" has to be one of the dumbest I have heard in awhile.

Ooo! Multitasking!

Sorry but that doesnt work for ***** in real life. Well,unless you are Multimedia and working with video all the time.
In an normal photo/pre-press situation your workflow is quite different.
-You skoop you pics into lightroom,rate,choose and tune them.Then you export them.
At exporting you are for the first time having some free time (other wise,well,you are working..) so you can say read you mail or start your photoshop. Exporting a 40 pic batch of 16bit 72 Mb TIFFs takes only few minutes,that much time that you can re-fill your coffemug.
Then it is ready.
Then you start to work on your pictures in Photoshop,usually one by one.
You aint doing no bloody multitasking while you are working.

If are simultaneously testing layout compostition in Indesign,LR for reimporting or whatever it doesnt tax your system much.
Memory wise,yes,but processor wise,no.


So,in the photography area of working,you can shove the multitasking up the proverbal arse,imho.
ATM,you have a very linear workflow with no great benefits of multiple cores or multitasking.
In video,utterly different thing.
In music,a bit different thing.






This buy now and update later crap is really stupid, and terribly bad advice. I don't see a point in buying a vastly outdated machine today only to have it lose a ton of value in a few months.

As stated above.
For certain kind of production enviroments the current machines are ok.
If thread starter would have asked about MPs for 3D,music or video enviroments then,hell, he should definately wait!
The current MPs will have their "value" for years to come. Id expect their lifespan to be for additional 3-4 years before becoming bottleneck of production.

[suneohair]

I am sure you know his exact workflow...

If you really get no benefit to multi-cores, why not just get a single core G5? I mean, you would be getting work done just as fast right? You could save money and get the workflow going!

I personally, multitask, and yes I work with photos. It is not my primary task, but it is one of the things I have open when doing work.

I am going to have to disagree with you on the multitasking, because again, while you may only be doing one thing. You have the OS, maybe some music, email, etc etc etc. No one is doing just one thing anymore and the multi cores help offset that. Not saying he needs an eight-core of course.

Also, on the much earlier point that CPU utilization is an indication of poor core utilization. The fact that does indeed scale up for certain duties suggest that it can indeed use multiple cores. There just always isn't a need as by the time it would start dividing out the threads the task is done on the one core.

I don't think current Mac Pro is worth the amount being asked. That will further decay when the new ones arrive. My point is that it is not a good financial decision to buy the current Pro. Even though I make money with what I do, I am not foolish enough to waste my money. End of story. Maybe you feel that is not the case and so be it.

But what you are saying doesn't really have any truth to it and is extremely misleading especially in the area of core utilization and value.

[Macinposh]

But what you are saying doesn't really have any truth to it and is extremely misleading especially in the area of core utilization and value.

Well,have to say that we do have different kind of views...:)
Core utilization sucks donkey balls in PS CS3 (that is a know fact) and value of the computer seems to be relative.

I see it that if you need the computer now, you buy it now.
You use it for 4 years,it has earned the investment back with in 6 months and you get profit for the rest 3 1/2 years.
AND you get your job done in minimum amount of time. The computer not being the bottleneck,but the PS being.
And it will be at least untill CS4 somewhere next december. And there is fear that complete rewrite of the code (to take care of the multithreading problems) is expected in CS5.
That release is 2 1/2 years away ,if adobe keeps its long standing track record of having its product release cycle of 18 months.

You can check out some barefeats(?) where they compared the 4 core MP and 8 core MP and the performace difference was practically nil in photoshop.


So,imho,if you need the computer now,buy it now.
If you can wait for 1-2 months then definately wait. You will get a computer that is 2-3 times faster than the current 4 core MP on some optimized programs (video,music,Lightroom) and maybe 10-20% speedup on said photoshop.

Either way,you will have a good workhorse for years to come.

[Graphis]

It seems that everyone's expecting the bottom-to-mid range Mac Pro's to be vastly improved by any forthcoming upgrade (and I agree), but what do y'all think about the 8-core? It was only introduced in April, so is it likely to be upgraded so soon? Is there any precedent for upgrading a model so soon after introduction?
Or is it the case that Apple will have to upgrade it, as the upgraded bottom-to-mids would outperform the 8-core?
The reason I ask, is I want an 8-core: I'll wait if it's going to be worth it, but if it's not likely to be upgraded like the others, then I may as well get one now.

[suneohair]

It seems that everyone's expecting the bottom-to-mid range Mac Pro's to be vastly improved by any forthcoming upgrade (and I agree), but what do y'all think about the 8-core? It was only introduced in April, so is it likely to be upgraded so soon? Is there any precedent for upgrading a model so soon after introduction?
Or is it the case that Apple will have to upgrade it, as the upgraded bottom-to-mids would outperform the 8-core?
The reason I ask, is I want an 8-core: I'll wait if it's going to be worth it, but if it's not likely to be upgraded like the others, then I may as well get one now.

I suggest you research Xeon Harpertown.

[Graphis]

I suggest you research Xeon Harpertown.

Why? Do you know for sure that :apple: will put these chips in an upgrade to the 8-core? By pointing me off in that direction, you're implying that you know this is the case. Anyway, you didn't actually answer my question:)

[TripleCore]

It seems that everyone's expecting the bottom-to-mid range Mac Pro's to be vastly improved by any forthcoming upgrade (and I agree), but what do y'all think about the 8-core? It was only introduced in April, so is it likely to be upgraded so soon?

Sure, if it's a new chip refresh. There were some memory bottlenecking issues with the 8-core, so maybe that will be addressed in an update.

[Graphis]

There were some memory bottlenecking issues with the 8-core

Really? I wasn't aware of this... is there a thread or some other source where I could read up on this?

[TripleCore]

Barefeats has a nice comparison with the 4-core. The 8 cores DO improve performance, so you're still getting more power in the long run, but perhaps not as much as you really could get. People I have talked to say to wait until the next revision to buy one. The real benefit of the existing 8-core is mainly in rendering.

http://www.barefeats.com/octopro1.html

[Umbongo]

Why? Do you know for sure that :apple: will put these chips in an upgrade to the 8-core? By pointing me off in that direction, you're implying that you know this is the case. Anyway, you didn't actually answer my question:)

The current 8 core isn't a different model, it's a processor change just the same as the 2GHz and 3GHz options. It's highly unlikely Apple will use anything but two quad core xeon processors in all the new mac pro configurations.

[Graphis]

I had a look at the Barefeats comparison: very interesting.
I'm mainly an artist/illustrator, working in Painter and Photoshop, although I have started to incorporate 3D into my work (lo end at this point, Poser, Bryce, ZBrush etc, although I hope to move up to Maya or something similar later), so render time is important to me, and no doubt will become even more important as time goes by.
I also do some bread-and-butter design work, using Photoshop, Illustrator, Quark, InDesign, Acrobat and DreamWeaver.

All things considered, it looks as if I'd be better off waiting for the upgrade, but only untill MacWorld: I can't really wait any longer.

On the other hand, there's some great deals around at the moment. I could get a current 8-core with a free 500GB 2nd internal drive, 5GB of RAM, and a new A3 printer, for the same price as buying just the machine direct from Apple.... it's very tempting.

[TripleCore]

I am a designer, so I don't need lots more horsepower for that. But I do need it for 3D. If you are interested in doing 3D illustration, take a look at modo. Maya may be overkill and overpriced for what you need (good to know if you are in the industry pipeline, which uses it a lot).

[Graphis]

Modo looks great, and a fraction of the cost of Maya. Thanks for that tip!
Especially as I don't want to get into actual animation, a lot of maya's features would be useless to me, which is why I've baulked at the price before now. Once I finally get a new Mac Pro, Modo will be the first new app I buy.

[suneohair]

Why? Do you know for sure that :apple: will put these chips in an upgrade to the 8-core? By pointing me off in that direction, you're implying that you know this is the case. Anyway, you didn't actually answer my question:)

Yes. They will. Apple isn't going to replace the bottom options with eight-core Harpertowns while leaving the Clovertown in the top end model. That would be plain silly. I thought that would be clear to you but evidently not.

By pointing you in the direction I did, you should have been able to get a good idea of what is coming if you had bothered to research, regardless of whether or not my implication is correct it is at the very least a logical one. And if you look into the Harpertown line you will see where the "eight-core" is going. It is going to be replaced by a higher end eight-core while the base model, at least, will also be getting eight-cores. So yes, your question was answered, you just didn't bother to actually look into it. There is enough information here such that I or anyone else should not have to hand feed information.

[sdschwendener]

...enough information here such that I or anyone else should not have to hand feed information.

http://www.hotshotperformer.com/images/whip_crack.jpg

[Graphis]

Thanks for your response. I didn't ask to be "hand fed", but (and forgive me if I appear to have assumed incorrectly), but I did think that the reason (one reason, anyway) for this forum was so that we could ask each other's advice and opinions, thus avoiding the need for each individual to go off and do their own research?:)
It's called sharing, I believe. But if you don't actually like answering questions from people who don't know as much as you do, then maybe you're in the wrong place?

Anyway, that aside, thanks for actually elaborating your previous answer.

[suneohair]

Thanks for your response. I didn't ask to be "hand fed", but (and forgive me if I appear to have assumed incorrectly), but I did think that the reason (one reason, anyway) for this forum was so that we could ask each other's advice and opinions, thus avoiding the need for each individual to go off and do their own research?:)
It's called sharing, I believe. But if you don't actually like answering questions from people who don't know as much as you do, then maybe you're in the wrong place?

Anyway, that aside, thanks for actually elaborating your previous answer.

Like I said, I gave you a quick pointer with the time I had. There is thread with Harpertown in the title here, and by far the leading thread dare I say on the entire internet, covering the next Mac Pro and what it will potentially have.

I have no problem answering questions, but what you were asking has been covered time and time again on these forums. There is no sense in repeating it again and again.

If you didn't like the pointer I gave or decided to reply without actually using it, that is fine but you had the information you needed to get your answer (and more), whether you liked it or not and without further elaboration on my part.