Wireless Internet Morality

[uae]

I just got my new 15 inch powerbook yesterday. It's a beauty. I'm slowly giving my PC the boot as I transfer everything over. E-mail from outlook was tough but I did it.

Getting off track...but I was playing around with my laptop on my couch and just for kicks i turned on the airport...and I got a signal.

I don't have an Airport basestation.

Which means...someone in my Apartment building has some sort of wireless router.

I feel kinda "bad"...hehe...Should I find the guy in my Apt?

Probably not...I'd save $199. :) But I probably should. Has anyone else ran into this?

[KentuckyApple]

finders keepers!!

[tomf87]

Morally, yes you should tell him. If you were this person, wouldn't you want to be told? Somehow, morals have to be raised and upheld in today's age. Too many people think it's okay to just get on someone's network and probe around. This is similar to finding someone's apartment door open and just walking in and wandering around because it was open so it was their fault I kept roaming around inside their house.

However, you might ask the person if they would mind you riding their internet connection. You'd be surprised how open-minded people are to this.

[uae]

I know. It's bad. I'm going to get an airport anyways so i can print from anywhere in my apt...but...it's pretty funny and random all the same.

Speaking of which..does anyone know of any cheap paralell port print servers?

[uae]

Just so you know i'm not browsing around his (or her) network...a more appropriate analogy would be the dolphins that swin in a big boats wake.

I even tried to turn on the rendevous iChat to see if they were avaialble to ask.

Maybe they have a PC router.

[robbieduncan]

If they can't be bothered setting up even the most basic security on their network then I think it's OK to "steal" it. If they use WEP, (or WPA on a g network) or even better limit by MAC address then you should not try and break in.

[uae]

When I do get an airport...how do i make it so that people cannot steal my bandwidth?

Is there a password option? There must be. Is it easy to set up?

[robbieduncan]

I would use the password (WPA if you are running in 802.11g mode) and MAC address filtering (note this is MAC not Mac). A MAC address is a unique hardware address that every wired and wireless ethernet card has. This is difficult (but not impossible) to fake, but combined with WPA should put off all but the most determined hackers.

[Rower_CPU]

Here's my Airport security set-up:

Non-public SSID - In Apple terms, a closed network that people have to know the name and enter it to log on.

WEP - Require a password/WEP key to get on

MAC address control - Limit access to those MAC addresses in a list of allowed machines.

If someone can et through all that, they'll have to be very determined, and that's what security is all about - making it so difficult that people will move on to an easier target.

[meniscus]

I live in an apt building so the neighbors are just on the other side of the (luckily almost soundproof) walls. Aside from my Airport Ex connection, I can sometimes see "WLAN" availible in my Airport menu bar shortcut. If I switch to it my signal drops a lot, but I can still go online though it. It must be a neighbors PC router because with the signal strength dop it has to be outside my Apt.

I prefer to use my APX connection because I pay no bandwith charges on my DSL, and I can connect to the other APX Apple's I have around, But it is funny that right at home I can find another unsecured wireless connection and get online. I wonder how many others are out there. BTW, I havn't tried to wander their actual machines. I have no interest, but the public availibility of "excess" bandwith for internet use is interesting. One twist on the argument is that their "open door" is located in MY apt. If they are extending their network into where I live, and not securing it cant I be free to try it. If a neighbor came in and placed their new plasma tv in my living room because it gives them the best viewing from across the way, am I a thief for simply using it after the owner placed it in my property?

BTW, paranoid me has enabled WEP and MAC on my APX. Just 'cause it's spooky to have "ghosts" floating around on your network.

(edited typos)

[tomf87]

Originally posted by robbieduncan
If they can't be bothered setting up even the most basic security on their network then I think it's OK to "steal" it. If they use WEP, (or WPA on a g network) or even better limit by MAC address then you should not try and break in.

Well, these things can be setup by novice people, so it's to our advantage to help them out. If you leave the keys in your car accidentally, does that mean I can take it for a spin without any consequences?

[robbieduncan]

Originally posted by tomf87
Well, these things can be setup by novice people, so it's to our advantage to help them out. If you leave the keys in your car accidentally, does that mean I can take it for a spin without any consequences?

As I have never left my keys in my car I suppose though! But this is more like me walking into my neighbours flat (through the wall!) and handing them the keys.

[jayb2000]

Originally posted by tomf87
Well, these things can be setup by novice people, so it's to our advantage to help them out. If you leave the keys in your car accidentally, does that mean I can take it for a spin without any consequences?

If I borrow someone's car (authorized or not) it costs gas, wear and tear on the oil, tires, etc.

Using bandwidth of somones home connection does not cost them anything extra, they don't get charged by the MB.

Its more akin to hitchhiking, someone is already going that way, so you just are along for the ride.
Now, usually good hitchhikers will try to contribute gas money or something in return.

As long as you are not being malicious and cracking their computer, then it does not hurt anyone. However, it does mean someone is paying for something you are using and it would be nice to share the cost, like a carpool. :cool:

[tomf87]

Originally posted by jayb2000
.... However, it does mean someone is paying for something you are using and it would be nice to share the cost, like a carpool. :cool:

That's what I was getting at. I guess I just explained it poorly. :)

Thanks for helping me out!

[alset]

I think you should see if you can find them (I found three networks on my floor using MacStumbler) and warn them. Now you're a nice guy, so they might do you a favor, sometime. Also, you're stacking up some karma points, and we all need those.

Keep in mind that using someone else's wifi could get them in a lot of trouble - P2P could be traced back to their broadband, and you could get them sued. You wouldn't want someone to do it to you, would you?

Dan

[Lord Bodak]

Originally posted by robbieduncan
If they can't be bothered setting up even the most basic security on their network then I think it's OK to "steal" it. If they use WEP, (or WPA on a g network) or even better limit by MAC address then you should not try and break in.

That's basically like saying if someone leaves their car unlocked it's ok to go drive it around for a while.

True, people should be more responsible when setting up their wireless; but if they don't make it clear that it's open to the public (generally the ")(" symbol in the name or the word "OPEN" or "PUBLIC" or similar), you really should find them and ask them.

[robbieduncan]

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
That's basically like saying if someone leaves their car unlocked it's ok to go drive it around for a while.

True, people should be more responsible when setting up their wireless; but if they don't make it clear that it's open to the public (generally the ")(" symbol in the name or the word "OPEN" or "PUBLIC" or similar), you really should find them and ask them.

I've already responded to this exact point above! It's not simply leaving something unlocked. As a wireless signal is not a physical item it can enter the property of another person (i.e. my flat) without my permission. If it's in my flat I can use it. If you don't want me to use what you have placed in my property you better make it difficult! If I come and park my car in you garage and leave you the keys will you drive it? Probably. But if I park it there alarmed with no keys will you break in and hot-wire it? Probably not.

Also think of it this way. If your base station signal extends into my house it may will interfere with my own base station signal degrading my ability to use my own property within my own home. Is this a moral position?

[Lord Bodak]

Originally posted by jayb2000
If I borrow someone's car (authorized or not) it costs gas, wear and tear on the oil, tires, etc.

Using bandwidth of somones home connection does not cost them anything extra, they don't get charged by the MB.


That's not necessarily true. Many providers are setting monthly data transfer limits or charing users extra for "excessive" data.

Without discussing it with the owner, you have no idea how you are affecting them.

[Lord Bodak]

Originally posted by robbieduncan
I've already responded to this exact point above! It's not simply leaving something unlocked. As a wireless signal is not a physical item it can enter the property of another person (i.e. my flat) without my permission. If it's in my flat I can use it. If you don't want me to use what you have placed in my property you better make it difficult! If I come and park my car in you garage and leave you the keys will you drive it? Probably. But if I park it there alarmed with no keys will you break in and hot-wire it? Probably not.

Also think of it this way. If your base station signal extends into my house it may will interfere with my own base station signal degrading my ability to use my own property within my own home. Is this a moral position?

If you park it in my garage and leave me the keys, I still can't legally drive it unless you give me permission!

And in the US (I know you aren't there, but I am), the FCC Part 15 regulations say we have to accept any interference caused by other devices.

[robbieduncan]

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
If you park it in my garage and leave me the keys, I still can't legally drive it unless you give me permission!

And in the US (I know you aren't there, but I am), the FCC Part 15 regulations say we have to accept any interference caused by other devices.

I agree with the legal position (although obviously the FCC rules do not apply here in the UK, we have something similar). But this thread is not about what is legal. It's about what's "right". And I think it's "right", although perhaps not legal, to use whatever is within my property if there has been no effort to stop me using it. As it is a moraility issue each person will have a slightly different interpretation of what is OK here.

My position is mostly based on the European broadband situation where we do not (in general) pay per MB or have caps on usage. I also take great care in ensuring the security of my network.

You need a license to drive a car. Whilst I'm not going to suggest you should have license to run a home network (wired or wireless) perhaps the manufacturers should provide some very basic training (say a 30 minute DVD in the box?)

[alset]

Why would you steal someone's bandwidth? If you think they should know better, why not tell them? Someone had to tell you, the first time. We all learn from our mistakes, but that doesn't mean you should actively seek and opportunity to take advantage of someone.

Dan

[SiliconAddict]

People NEED to learn how to turn on WEP encryption. I've become a wardriving addict. Its like collecting baseball cards, You can never have enough and as long as you aren't connecting to a network you aren't doing anything illegal.
I'm constantly amazed at how may AP are unencrypted. Rough guess 1 in 5 have WEP on. As for the moral implications I would ask everyone this. Would you mind if someone was sneaking bandwidth from you? I know I would. Unless that person was willing to chip in for the $60 a month I spend on broadband I'd be a tad pissed if someone was freeloading. Now if they came up to me and said hey I accidentally found your network can we do a deal. I'd seriously consider it.

I've been mulling putting flyers in people's mailboxes informing them that they have an unprotected network and they should consider securing it but I'd rather not put my neck on the line to be a nice guy about it. It's getting off on a tangent of the topic but I highly expect some major cyber attacks to occur from one of these unprotected sites one of these days. There's no way we are going to get every site secured but we should be able to do better then 1 in 5.
FYI the pic below. The green posts are non encrypted and Red has WEP encryption turned on. The most interesting thing I've found WDing is that real estate companies LOVE their wireless. Just about every remax, C21, etc has wireless in their location.

[SiliconAddict]

PS - I hate to tell you folks this but attaching to a person's network simply by getting an IP can be seen as a hacking attempt. There isn't any if ands or buts about it. I believe that there was a CA case last year where some poor guy got nabbed for jumping from network to network with his laptop. In that case his card was set to pick up whatever AP it could find. Can't remember where the case went. Right now, AFAIK, there is no national imposed penalties and you are at the mercy of local authorities. With the way people overreact lately about computer break-ins, viruses and such you stand a pretty good chance of getting the book thrown at you. Pray that the DA or whoever is the prosecutor is computer literate.

[caveman_uk]

I personally do have WEP enabled and only accept the MAC of my ibook for I know that, to use the driving analogy, that if I left my keys in my car someone would steal it. Not that that makes it right.

Using macstumbler I've found loads of networks with SSIDs of 'default', no WEP etc. The problem is that base stations are set up to be easy to get working and to minimise tech support calls. Setting it to be secure out of the box would cause the sellers hassle and anyway the average Joe won't know theres a problem until he notices someone stealing bandwidth or his ISP disconnects him for excessive use or the law come round asking why he's spamming/DoSing/downloading dodgy porn.

[Sun Baked]

>SiliconAddict

I wonder how much SPAM somebody could launch with that map of yours.

Of course everytime you launch some, it would probably burn a hole in the location.

As the nastygram from the ISP is quite a bitter pill.

[Stelliform]

Originally posted by alset
I think you should see if you can find them (I found three networks on my floor using MacStumbler) and warn them. Now you're a nice guy, so they might do you a favor, sometime. Also, you're stacking up some karma points, and we all need those.

Keep in mind that using someone else's wifi could get them in a lot of trouble - P2P could be traced back to their broadband, and you could get them sued. You wouldn't want someone to do it to you, would you?

Dan

I am a Computer Networking Consultant, and I set up a Wifi without security in one of my offices. I explained the options and they didn't want to fool with WEP or anything. A Technology firm moved in next door and found the Wifi and came to warn them. (And also hinted that they could fix it..)

My client was so freaked out that they were looking for their Wifi that they don't trust the guys at all! (they also mentioned a couple of computer names to prove they saw the network..) My client asked me to come put in security to keep those guys out...

I always thought I could drum up extra business by finding open Wifi and warning the business, but I learned a lesson that day. Businesses will freak out that you were looking. I guess it would be for them like you walked all around their building trying every window until you got in, then walked around inside and read the names on the office doors to prove you got in. Then you came back the next day and warned them that they need to buy locks for their windows, and then they call the cops on you.. :)

Your intentions might be good but they perceive them to not be.

(By the way I keep my home Wifi open... The SID is Play_nice. ;))

[notjustjay]

At home I keep my network MAC-address restricted and 128-bit WEP enabled.

Last month I helped my sister move into her new apartment in the city of SARS (i.e. Toronto;) ) and for the first few days she had no phone line or cable or any way to get on the net. I discovered using my laptop that there were a good 8-12 wireless networks being picked up from her place. Most of them were too weak a signal to do anything with, but there were a few that would reliably connect... and 3 of them had NO security at all. I'll admit that I did avail myself to one of them in order to quickly get on the web.

This guy had obviously simply taken out his Linksys router and plugged it in ... it had all the default settings including the default router password! D'oh!

[tomf87]

This is similar to the cheaper telephones sold here in the US. They use frequencies in the 20 - 30 Mhz range and any scanner can pick up these signals and you can hear them. However, listening to these is both immoral and legal. You don't know the type of traffic someone is transmitting (phone or wireless).

I really just don't understand why people have to lower their morality bar to justify something. I guess I just expect people to have higher standards, and judging by the way TV shows, movies, and music are degrading, I doubt that most people have standards of any kind.

Back to this post, if anyone has to question this, then they should ask what they would do if they got caught. Would you feel bad? If so, then you do have some morals and probably shouldn't do it. Then again, if you just don't care, then maybe you might want to rethink your moral situation again.

Somebody HAS to raise the bar sometime.

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by Sun Baked
>SiliconAddict

I wonder how much SPAM somebody could launch with that map of yours.

Of course everytime you launch some, it would probably burn a hole in the location.

As the nastygram from the ISP is quite a bitter pill.

Dang. I never thought about Spam :mad:
Someone with a laptop and decent external antenna could do some fairly nasty stuff. My current list is composed of 1905 Access Points. (Of which I have 9 with the SSID of MSFTWLAN Guess who owns those AP :D ) Of those 569 of 1905 have encryption on. However that doesn't mean they don't have security. Something as simple as MAC (No not Mac. M.A.C :p ;) ) filtering could take the place of encryption.
It somewhat disheartening to see Apple and Apple Network in the list and of those they are only a very small drop in the bucket. (21AP's) :(

Another thing I would like to point out is that there are legit free AP's out there. http://www.surfthing.com/surfthing.html as example. In this case this is just for MN but its an example of the idea of free unrestricted net access. Something I hope to see nation wide someday.

[Public Service Announcement Mode = 1 ]
Also. Guys burry this in the back of your heads for me. If you ever hear of a Mac user having problems connecting to a PC access point with WEP even though he/she has used the correct string its most likely that the AP is set to auth on a separate key other then key 1.
I don't know how Mac Airport AP's work but PC AP's have the ability to store 4 or more encryptions keys and can set to auth on a specific one. For some reason Macs get funky when its not set to key 1. I spent 2 week on the phone with Linksys who told me that they don't support Macs. (I informed them that they just lost a future return customer by that comment.) And on the phone with Apple support. Neither caught this. It was just a stroke of pure luck, and desperation on my part, that I figured lets try setting it back to key 1 and vola! it worked. So if for some weird reason in the future you hear about a Mac not being able to auth on a PC wireless network. Remember key 1. [This has been a public service announcement by SiliconAddict. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.]

[rhpenguin]

I got the Airport card in my laptop just so i could go around and use other peoples wireless networks since i dont have internet in my apartment because my roomate is a tool and didnt pay the cable bill so i cant get another account. I say use it, but do NOT go running a muck on their network and get into their personal files. Have some respect for their privacy.

I told my neighbour that im using his wi-fi and initally he was pissed off but then i said ill chip in on your bill monthly and he was cool with that. But i mean just use some common sense. If you can find out who it is, tell them and see if they care. If they do help them out and lock it down a little.

Just use common sense.

[Toeknee]

I go to a college where we dont have any major campus wide wireless network. So today as I sat in the engineering building I turned AP on and low and behold I got a strong signal. Got an 802.11b signal from somewhere near by, I checked my mail and then got off. I don't know what to do, should I ask around and find the classroom or faculty member that has an unsecure wi-fi point? or just keep using it and hope i dont get caught?.... ( i think ill go with the former just wanna hear what yall think):confused:

[rainman::|:|]

Okay. as was said before, no one owns this frequency. no one owns the channels on it. you can use the channels on it, for just about anything you like, and if you want a channel to be private, you secure it. keep in mind folks, an 802.11 card is a radio transmitter, they're broadcasting this signal all over-- and not securing it? in so many ways, it'd be like setting up and FM radio station and then getting pissed because people were listening to it. it's a standard frequency with standard equipment. if you can't use it properly in this day and age, you probably deserve whatever's coming :rolleyes:

so, if it were me, i'd probably use the connection. activity limits are rare in the USA. don't go digging in his computer. even i can't justify that one--

ah, i should mention, this will not hold up in court.

pnw

[Makosuke]

The whole thing is a pretty shady area, but I think a previous poster put it well when they said "How would you feel if someone was doing it to you?"

If you'd be pissed off (which most, though not all, people would be), you should probably say something to them or at least not use it yourself. And I don't see what a huge issue asking for permission would be; if they say no, you'd have been doing something they didn't want you to do anyway, and if they say yes, you're off the moral hook so to speak.

After all, you don't know their situation; if they have unrestricted bandwidth and you're just checking your e-mail, they'll never notice. If they do and you spend all night downloading porn, they could have problems. You could also just slow down their network unnecessarily and leave them wondering why.

Of course, if you're going all out with Kazaa and they get sued by the RIAA, then you're downright evil even if they did leave themselves open to it.

Probably the best analogy would be if someone set up a TV in their living room, but you can easily see it form your living room through the window, and your remote control happens to work with it too. Just sitting there watching it over their shoulder might be a bit rude, but it's a no-harm situation. If you use your remote to order some pay-per view movies, then you're doing something really wrong.