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MacRumors
Dec 4, 2007, 08:36 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

A German court overturned (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7127022.stm) the temporary injunction issued against T-Mobile requiring it to sell unlocked iPhones in Germany.

Due to the injunction, T-Mobile had been required to offer an unlocked version (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/21/t-mobile-selling-unlocked-iphones-in-germany/) of the Apple iPhone in Germany. The unlocked iPhone was priced at 999 euro, well above the standard 399 euro price for an iPhone with a two-year T-Mobile contract.

With this reversal, the unlocked iPhone will no longer be available in Germany, though officially unlocked iPhones will still remain available in France.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/12/04/t-mobile-relocks-iphone-in-germany/)



csimmons
Dec 4, 2007, 08:44 AM
T-Mobile also said they would unlock the iPhone after the two year contract expires, free of charge.

mrkramer
Dec 4, 2007, 08:49 AM
That's too bad they had to relock it. they probably wouldn't have sold many anyway.

superleccy
Dec 4, 2007, 08:55 AM
I live in hope that one day, Apple will release an uh-tethered iPhone platform open to developers without any catches.

I think that that day just moved slightly more forwards into the future.

SL

geeman
Dec 4, 2007, 09:05 AM
So if you paid the 999 Euro and got an unlocked iPhone, is T-Mobile going to give you the price difference back?

superleccy
Dec 4, 2007, 09:07 AM
So if you paid the 999 Euro and got an unlocked iPhone, is T-Mobile going to give you the price difference back?
Why should they? :confused:
SL

samh004
Dec 4, 2007, 09:08 AM
I'll be buying my legitimately unlocked iPhone from France then I guess. Not like I was actually considering paying €999 for a phone though.

I know this is the wrong thread, but can anyone explain the price equation in France. From what I've read, I can buy an iPhone for €399 and pay €100 to unlock it. Simple. €499. So where are people pulling €649/€749 from ?

So if you paid the 999 Euro and got an unlocked iPhone, is T-Mobile going to give you the price difference back?

There'll be so few compared to the amount on plans that it wont matter. I can't see them turning around and saying that those customers now need to go back on a plan, it's not an issue to them. Plus it'd cause more hassle that they really don't need.

Aaargh!
Dec 4, 2007, 09:21 AM
I'll be buying my legitimately unlocked iPhone from France then I guess. Not like I was actually considering paying €999 for a phone though.

I know this is the wrong thread, but can anyone explain the price equation in France. From what I've read, I can buy an iPhone for €399 and pay €100 to unlock it. Simple. €499. So where are people pulling €649/€749 from ?
the 399 is only in combination with a subscription

gifford
Dec 4, 2007, 09:21 AM
ah good news (though i expect i stand alone here).

Beefeater
Dec 4, 2007, 09:26 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

A German court overturned (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7127022.stm) the temporary injunction issued against T-Mobile requiring it to sell unlocked iPhones in Germany.

Due to the injunction, T-Mobile had been required to offer an unlocked version (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/21/t-mobile-selling-unlocked-iphones-in-germany/) of the Apple iPhone in Germany. The unlocked iPhone was priced at 999 euro, well above the standard 399 euro price for an iPhone with a two-year T-Mobile contract.

With this reversal, the unlocked iPhone will no longer be available in Germany, though officially unlocked iPhones will still remain available in France.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/12/04/t-mobile-relocks-iphone-in-germany/)

Oh I wish T-Mobile could sell the iPhone in the U.S. Anyway I don't think anyone is going to buy at the un-locked price so, don't think it really matters.

cal6n
Dec 4, 2007, 09:28 AM
ah good news (though i expect i stand alone here).

No, you're not alone. There are plenty of others like you on my list...

Data
Dec 4, 2007, 09:30 AM
Why would you want the / a phone to be locked to one carrier ? I see no reason what so ever to be happy about having no choice in that, that just does not make sense.

phalewhale
Dec 4, 2007, 09:45 AM
I live in hope that one day, Apple will release an uh-tethered iPhone platform open to developers without any catches.

I think that that day just moved slightly more forwards into the future.

SL

How come? An unlocked version is still available in France and will be by the time the iPhone opens up to developers. Isn't that happening in January?

theheadguy
Dec 4, 2007, 09:50 AM
ah good news (though i expect i stand alone here).
For the most part your expectations are realistic.

:apple:

iBlue
Dec 4, 2007, 09:51 AM
oh balls!

http://upc.edesignuk.com/uploads/catmacros/grate.jpg

superleccy
Dec 4, 2007, 09:53 AM
How come? An unlocked version is still available in France and will be by the time the iPhone opens up to developers. Isn't that happening in January?

Sometimes technology moves towards freedom at a slow pace, but it moves nonetheless. After the decision today, Apple and their partner networks just clawed back a little moral high ground. We moved slightly backwards.

Unlocked in just one country in the world in the world and at a significant premium isn't what I meant by "unteathered".

And I'll wait to see what catches Apple impose on the forthcoming "opening to developers" before I celebrate.

SL

PDE
Dec 4, 2007, 10:04 AM
Sometimes technology moves towards freedom at a slow pace, but it moves nonetheless. After the decision today, Apple and their partner networks just clawed back a little moral high ground. We moved slightly backwards.

Unlocked in just one country in the world in the world and at a significant premium isn't what I meant by "unteathered".

And I'll wait to see what catches Apple impose on the forthcoming "opening to developers" before I celebrate.

SL

I doubt very much that this will be the last we hear of legal challenges. Locked phones at unlocked prices are totally out of vogue all over the world - just wait until Apple tries to launch these phones in Asia, not to mention other European countries. I sincerely hope that Apple gets burned with this, so that they learn a lesson about the world we live in. The cultural/market ignorance and arrogance they have been showing outside the U.S. is astonishing.

sokrates
Dec 4, 2007, 10:18 AM
I doubt very much that this will be the last we hear of legal challenges. Locked phones at unlocked prices are totally out of vogue all over the world - just wait until Apple tries to launch these phones in Asia, not to mention other European countries. I sincerely hope that Apple gets burned with this, so that they learn a lesson about the world we live in. The cultural/market ignorance and arrogance they have been showing outside the U.S. is astonishing.

that's ridiculous, 400 euros is a standard price for a subsidized upper class phone, phones such as the Nokia n95 8gb are not cheaper at all (the n95 costs 769€ without a contract) People should stop complaining about everything, no one makes you buy one, if you don't like the terms, DON'T F#§$§% buy it! and besides that, using an unlocked iPhone in europe is pretty much stupid, because you can't fully use it's features and you would get burned on data transfers, the t-mobile deal in germany is totally fair, and I am completely happy with it. (and no, I am no fanboy who worships the ground steve jobs walks on)

manu chao
Dec 4, 2007, 10:29 AM
That's too bad they had to relock it. they probably wouldn't have sold many anyway.

It's not that they HAD to relock it. There were allowed to relock it.

csimmons
Dec 4, 2007, 10:33 AM
ah good news (though i expect i stand alone here).

No, you do not.:D

I'm glad that the big corporate whiners known as Vodafone lost in court. Now maybe they can actually compete against T-Mobile instead of trying to sneakily ride the iPhone coattails.

I do wonder where this will leave Debitel, though...:p

SimonTheSoundMa
Dec 4, 2007, 10:35 AM
that's ridiculous, 400 euros is a standard price for a subsidized upper class phone, phones such as the Nokia n95 8gb are not cheaper at all (the n95 costs 769€ without a contract) People should stop complaining about everything, no one makes you buy one, if you don't like the terms, DON'T F#§$§% buy it! and besides that, using an unlocked iPhone in europe is pretty much stupid, because you can't fully use it's features and you would get burned on data transfers, the t-mobile deal in germany is totally fair, and I am completely happy with it. (and no, I am no fanboy who worships the ground steve jobs walks on)
You fail to notice that you can get an N95 for free on most contracts such as a £45+/month, where you get 2-3 times more minutes and texts with unlimited Internet.

You can save just under £200 in 18 months by importing a French unlocked iPhone, having a a different pay monthly subscription which again again has 2-3 times the minutes and texts with unlimited Internet.

iBlue
Dec 4, 2007, 10:35 AM
...
I'm glad that the big corporate whiniers known as Vodafone lost in court. Now maybe they can actually compete against T-Mobile instead of trying to sneakily ride the iPhone coattails.
...
Problem with that is everyone loses - the ability to choose their own provider. Big cooperate whiners or not, I think unlocked is better.

csimmons
Dec 4, 2007, 10:38 AM
that's ridiculous, 400 euros is a standard price for a subsidized upper class phone, phones such as the Nokia n95 8gb are not cheaper at all (the n95 costs 769€ without a contract) People should stop complaining about everything, no one makes you buy one, if you don't like the terms, DON'T F#§$§% buy it! and besides that, using an unlocked iPhone in europe is pretty much stupid, because you can't fully use it's features and you would get burned on data transfers, the t-mobile deal in germany is totally fair, and I am completely happy with it. (and no, I am no fanboy who worships the ground steve jobs walks on)

T-Mobile just made their plans a little better as well. If they would just kill the data cap on WiFi transfers, they would indeed have the best plans on the german mobile market.

manu chao
Dec 4, 2007, 10:46 AM
I know this is the wrong thread, but can anyone explain the price equation in France. From what I've read, I can buy an iPhone for €399 and pay €100 to unlock it. Simple. €499. So where are people pulling €649/€749 from ?


A: 399 € is locked + contract
(B: 499 € is locked but unlockable for free after 6 month + contract)
C: 649 € is locked but unlockable for free after 6 month and w/o contract
D: 749 € is locked but unlockable right away and w/o contract

I am not sure about B:, I could not find a source for it anymore.

zombitronic
Dec 4, 2007, 11:17 AM
ah good news (though i expect i stand alone here).

I'm on your team, Giff. As a shareholder, I agree with you 100%. Welcome back, revenue sharing! Not that it completely went away, but in Germany, Apple is obviously only benefiting from revenue sharing through T-Mobile.

I suppose some people hold a strong loyalty with their mobile service provider or are already grandfathered into a sweet plan, but as long as the transparent service gets the job done, I could care less who provides it. If it doesn't get the job done for you, I understand your frustration, but as of right now, this young device is a packaged subscription deal. Of course, there are alternatives.

So, good for the ones who went for the opportunity to exclusively team up with Apple. Competition forces progression.

weg
Dec 4, 2007, 11:43 AM
ah good news (though i expect i stand alone here).

Ok, I don't get it. Please explain to me: What exactly is the advantage for the customer if the iPhone is available from only one provider? (or are you working for T-mobile? In that case I see why you think it's positive).

zombitronic
Dec 4, 2007, 11:57 AM
Ok, I don't get it. Please explain to me: What exactly is the advantage for the customer if the iPhone is available from only one provider? (or are you working for T-mobile? In that case I see why you think it's positive).

Geek reference:

Back in the early '90s when Square was partnered solely with Nintendo, if you wanted Final Fantasy III (VI), you got a Super Nintendo (Famicom). If you didn't have a Super Nintendo, you couldn't play Final Fantasy III. And if you wanted to play Final Fantasy III that badly, you got a Super Nintendo. There wasn't really an advantage or disadvantage, but if you wanted that product, you went with its corresponding partner. It was a matter of consumer decision.

Obviously, these are different markets in discussion here, but the partnering concept remains the same.

SFC Archer
Dec 4, 2007, 12:05 PM
Ok, I don't get it. Please explain to me: What exactly is the advantage for the customer if the iPhone is available from only one provider? (or are you working for T-mobile? In that case I see why you think it's positive).

Its quite simple really...if you want it to work properly and do everything it was designed to do then that is the customer advantage. If you don't like it the way its offered then...geeeeee whiz.....DONT BUY IT! Quit your whinin and go back to Burger King...there you can get it your way. If you you want to make a change in someones business model then I suggest you start working for a CEO slot so that "YOU" can make a change. Apple made the decision with T-Mobile, the courts saw in favor of said contract and that is just the way the cookie crumbles, so get over it and move on!

twoodcc
Dec 4, 2007, 12:21 PM
wow, that didn't take long

weg
Dec 4, 2007, 12:31 PM
Its quite simple really...if you want it to work properly and do everything it was designed to do then that is the customer advantage. If you don't like it the way its offered then...geeeeee whiz.....DONT BUY IT! Quit your whinin and go back to Burger King...there you can get it your way. If you you want to make a change in someones business model then I suggest you start working for a CEO slot so that "YOU" can make a change. Apple made the decision with T-Mobile, the courts saw in favor of said contract and that is just the way the cookie crumbles, so get over it and move on!

Well, I don't see why T-Mobile is the only company in Germany that is able to make everything work properly. Apple could easily team up with other providers and make sure that they provide the same quality of service as T-Mobile (in fact, it's not really a technical problem, the features required by the iPhone are so dated that every provider in Europe supports them).

I personally don't care who sells the iPhone because I don't want one, however, the argument that sticking to one provider improves the quality seems flawed to me. Simple (hypothetical) example: I might happen to live or work at a place where there's no T-Mobile reception, but which is covered by Vodafone or O2 or whatever. I might still want an iPhone, even though you think I'm not entitled to have one, because I'm not the CEO of Apple. How am I better off now?

weg
Dec 4, 2007, 12:33 PM
Obviously, these are different markets in discussion here, but the partnering concept remains the same.

I see why partnering is good for Apple, but my question was: How is it good for the customer

SFC Archer
Dec 4, 2007, 12:49 PM
Well, I don't see why T-Mobile is the only company in Germany that is able to make everything work properly. Apple could easily team up with other providers and make sure that they provide the same quality of service as T-Mobile (in fact, it's not really a technical problem, the features required by the iPhone are so dated that every provider in Europe supports them).

I personally don't care who sells the iPhone because I don't want one, however, the argument that sticking to one provider improves the quality seems flawed to me. Simple (hypothetical) example: I might happen to live or work at a place where there's no T-Mobile reception, but which is covered by Vodafone or O2 or whatever. I might still want an iPhone, even though you think I'm not entitled to have one, because I'm not the CEO of Apple. How am I better off now?


I didnt say you werent entitled to have an iPhone because you're not the CEO of Apple...If I did then show me where.

This debate has been going on long before the phone got to Europe. The simple fact is...Apple talked to those cellular networks that showed an interest in the iPhone. They presented their contracts, rates propositions etc. and those that agreed became carriers...those that didnt like whatever the contract offered...declined. It is that simple. I want NFL Ticket on my cable TV...guess what...can't get it...I would have to go satellite route and sign that contract. Same goes for a silly cell phone...if you want a specific one then you go where its offered...if you don't like it then you don't get it...so I watch what is offered for the weekend on the NFL and grin and bear it. Its called life, its not a perfect world and every "single" individual can NOT be catered to ... a happy medium is established and adapted to. It does not matter if its a benefit to the customer or the company...for some its a benefit to the customer as is...they are the happy users of the iPhone...for others it is not...they are the happy users of some other cell phone. Accept it for what it is and move on in life...as you said yourself...your not interested in one so why bother...its a cell phone that with in a year will be replaced anyway.

MrCrowbar
Dec 4, 2007, 01:25 PM
Down with Big Brother! Errr, I mean T-Mobile :rolleyes:

EagerDragon
Dec 4, 2007, 01:36 PM
So if you paid the 999 Euro and got an unlocked iPhone, is T-Mobile going to give you the price difference back?

No, the difference was for an unlocked phone, and that is what the customer has in his/her hands.

If (BIG IF) they were to decide to re-lock it, then the customer would be in the right to ask for a refund of the difference, or return the phone and ask for a total refund and the cancelation of the contract due to a breach of contract (unlocked iPhone is no longer unlocked).

I bet not many people bought an unlocked phone this close to the court case, so the liability is very limited regardless of what action the cell carrier decides.

EagerDragon
Dec 4, 2007, 01:39 PM
Why would you want the / a phone to be locked to one carrier ? I see no reason what so ever to be happy about having no choice in that, that just does not make sense.

Some don't mind AT&T and like the idea of paying less for the phone. Not everyone is anti-this-or-that.

EagerDragon
Dec 4, 2007, 01:43 PM
Problem with that is everyone loses - the ability to choose their own provider. Big cooperate whiners or not, I think unlocked is better.

People have a choice, they can get an N95, they are not forced to buy an iPhone.

glennyboiwpg
Dec 4, 2007, 01:44 PM
Those of us living in a country where the Iphone is legitimitly offered, then I guess... yeah, suck it up, switch to ATT/T-moblile/etc and get on with your life.

But what about us who live in countries where the iphone isn't offerered yet, and there doesn't seem to be any plans to offer it in the forseeable future? (Canada for one?)

I would LOVE to go to rogers get a NO-Data plan and buy a locked iphone. I really really would. (if they offered proper data plan rates all the better)

What are we suppose to do? We gotta go to ebay. Which sucks I should know I just got my "unlocked" iphone yesturday that doesn't work with my simcard... now I have to unlock it myself.

What are we suppose to do?

EagerDragon
Dec 4, 2007, 01:48 PM
Those of us living in a country where the Iphone is legitimitly offered, then I guess... yeah, suck it up, switch to ATT/T-moblile/etc and get on with your life.

But what about us who live in countries where the iphone isn't offerered yet, and there doesn't seem to be any plans to offer it in the forseeable future? (Canada for one?)

I would LOVE to go to rogers get a NO-Data plan and buy a locked iphone. I really really would. (if they offered proper data plan rates all the better)

What are we suppose to do? We gotta go to ebay. Which sucks I should know I just got my "unlocked" iphone yesturday that doesn't work with my simcard... now I have to unlock it myself.

What are we suppose to do?

Until Apple legaly sells them there or Rogers sell them there, basically you have to wait. Besides, once you see the prices that Rogers is going to charge you may not want it. There are more phones and other things in life that are more important, besides version 2 is coming in less than 6 months.

glennyboiwpg
Dec 4, 2007, 02:02 PM
Until Apple legaly sells them there or Rogers sell them there, basically you have to wait. Besides, once you see the prices that Rogers is going to charge you may not want it. There are more phones and other things in life that are more important, besides version 2 is coming in less than 6 months.

Wow... So which one are you? an arrogent american who thinks that he is blessed by the heavens cause he lives in america or are you someone who has his underware wound so tight that he/she can't bend the rules no matter what?

LONG LIVE BIG BROTHER!

eastcoastsurfer
Dec 4, 2007, 02:11 PM
Until Apple legaly sells them there or Rogers sell them there, basically you have to wait. Besides, once you see the prices that Rogers is going to charge you may not want it. There are more phones and other things in life that are more important, besides version 2 is coming in less than 6 months.

What makes it illegal to sell them there now? This is getting as dumb as region encoded DVDs.

megfilmworks
Dec 4, 2007, 02:13 PM
ah good news (though i expect i stand alone here).
I agree, a reasonable ruling. Wouldn't hold my breath for the French courts to make similar decisions when and if they come up.

samab
Dec 4, 2007, 02:17 PM
I know this is the wrong thread, but can anyone explain the price equation in France. From what I've read, I can buy an iPhone for €399 and pay €100 to unlock it. Simple. €499. So where are people pulling €649/€749 from ?

Anyone who purchase a phone in France can ask for the unlocking code from the carrier for free --- 6 months after they bought the phone. But you have to sit on the phone for 6 months. If you want the unlocking code right away --- then you have to pay the unlocking fee.

399 euro is for iphone with 2 year contract with the iphone plans (wait 6 months to get free unlocking code or pay 100 euro to get it now right away). Either way you are stuck with a 2 year iphone contract.

549 euro is for iphone with a 2 year contract with any standard Orange plan. Again wait 6 months or pay 100 euro to get the unlocking code right away. Either way you are stuck with a 2 year Orange contract.

649 euro is for a iphone without any Orange contract. Again wait 6 months or pay 100 euro to get the unlocking code right away. So if you want a fully unlocked iphone right now --- it's 749 euro.

glennyboiwpg
Dec 4, 2007, 02:19 PM
What makes it illegal to sell them there now? This is getting as dumb as region encoded DVDs.

There is nothing ILLEGAL about locking/unlocking the iphone in North America.


Apple just doesn't have to help you unlock it, and is allowed to do what ever it can to lock it.


But there is nothing illegal about it.

samab
Dec 4, 2007, 02:24 PM
What makes it illegal to sell them there now? This is getting as dumb as region encoded DVDs.

Region encoded DVD's are actually quite sensible. Aside from the Spiderman or X-Men sequals --- 99% of the movies are shown at different times of the year in various parts of the world.

Why? Because Americans don't go to the movies in the middle of a giant snow storm in January or February. For the last 20 years, Jackie Chan has always opened his movies during Chinese New Year in January or February in Hong Kong. When you watch Australian Open tennis in January --- you can see Australians bringing their kids to see the matches during their summer holidays.

samab
Dec 4, 2007, 02:34 PM
I doubt very much that this will be the last we hear of legal challenges. Locked phones at unlocked prices are totally out of vogue all over the world - just wait until Apple tries to launch these phones in Asia, not to mention other European countries. I sincerely hope that Apple gets burned with this, so that they learn a lesson about the world we live in. The cultural/market ignorance and arrogance they have been showing outside the U.S. is astonishing.

Japanese and Korean carriers are even worst in unlocking up their phones. Korean USIM cards (in their WCDMA phones) are locked to specific phones --- you can't even give your old phone to your little brother who has the same carrier as you.

You are the one who needs a lesson of ignorance and arrogance. The iphone launch in Europe is the perfect example of how idiotic European sim-locking laws, consumer protection laws and anti-trust laws are. O2 is not even going to give you the unlocking codes after your iphone contract is up. T-Mobile Germany just made a voluntary gesture to provide unlocking codes after your iphone contract is expired. Orange can charge any insane price they want for the unlocked iphone --- they could have charged 1000 euro (they didn't do it but it doesn't mean they couldn't do it by law).

What we have here is Americans paying cheaper iphones for the hardware, cheaper iphone plans with unlimited m2m, unlimited nights and weekends and rollovers. And without all these idiotic European sim-locking laws --- AT&T manages to promise that they will provide unlocking codes for the iphone when your contract is expired.

Manic Mouse
Dec 4, 2007, 02:42 PM
Its quite simple really...if you want it to work properly and do everything it was designed to do then that is the customer advantage.

You people really are blinded by bias, aren't you? Apple locking the iPhone down to carriers has nothing to do with "making stuff work well", it has to do with Apple getting a cut of the monthly contract.

The iPhone is locked for one reason and one reason only: Apple's sheer greed. Consumers get screwed with rip-off contracts to line Apple's pockets for the length of the contract, after buying the device at full price.

If the carrier lock down had nothing to do with money, but was to ensure network/phone compatibility then they could put iPhones on every network that met their requirements and they wouldn't be demanding money from monthly fees.

"Customer advantage"- Don't make me laugh, the iPhone is locked down so much for Apple's advantage and no other reason. I have yet to hear a single valid reason why Apple deserve a cut of something they have nothing to do with, your phone network. And who pays for this? The customers who pay for "iPhone" contracts that are waaaay more expensive than normal ones.

The iPhone is Apples way of gouging gullible customers for no particular reason, I find it quite repulsive personally.

ogee
Dec 4, 2007, 02:55 PM
So, good for the ones who went for the opportunity to exclusively team up with Apple. Competition forces progression.


And this ruling does nothing to encourage competition. Exactly the opposite. T-Moble/Apple can now do what they want with the plan, including reducing the contents increasing price and the consumer can do F all about it.

Had the decision gone in favor of Vodafone, and the iPhone been available on any plan, then companies like Vodafone, O2, etc would have put out similar plans which undercut T-Mobile. That wont now happen as you and I can not buy the iPhone unlocked.

samab
Dec 4, 2007, 02:56 PM
I have yet to hear a single valid reason why Apple deserve a cut of something they have nothing to do with, your phone network. And who pays for this? The customers who pay for "iPhone" contracts that are waaaay more expensive than normal ones.

It's not Apple's fault that the iphone plans in Europe is way more expensive than normal ones.

AT&T's iphone plan is basically a standard voice plan plus their regular price $20 data plan. No price gouging in the US.

samab
Dec 4, 2007, 02:58 PM
And this ruling does nothing to encourage competition. Exactly the opposite. T-Moble/Apple can now do what they want with the plan, including reducing the contents increasing price and the consumer can do F all about it.

Had the decision gone in favor of Vodafone, and the iPhone been available on any plan, then companies like Vodafone, O2, etc would have put out similar plans which undercut T-Mobile. That wont now happen as you and I can not buy the iPhone unlocked.

The Vodafone lawsuit has always been just a plain old nuisance lawsuit. If Apple and T-Mobile felt that there was some German local laws that threaten their business model --- they could have priced it like in France.

SFC Archer
Dec 4, 2007, 03:07 PM
You people really are blinded by bias, aren't you? Apple locking the iPhone down to carriers has nothing to do with "making stuff work well", it has to do with Apple getting a cut of the monthly contract.

The iPhone is locked for one reason and one reason only: Apple's sheer greed. Consumers get screwed with rip-off contracts to line Apple's pockets for the length of the contract, after buying the device at full price.

If the carrier lock down had nothing to do with money, but was to ensure network/phone compatibility then they could put iPhones on every network that met their requirements and they wouldn't be demanding money from monthly fees.

"Customer advantage"- Don't make me laugh, the iPhone is locked down so much for Apple's advantage and no other reason. I have yet to hear a single valid reason why Apple deserve a cut of something they have nothing to do with, your phone network. And who pays for this? The customers who pay for "iPhone" contracts that are waaaay more expensive than normal ones.

The iPhone is Apples way of gouging gullible customers for no particular reason, I find it quite repulsive personally.

...and the other side of the coin is "YOU" who are blinded by hate toward something you just can't grasp or accept. You are right, the iPhone IS locked down for one reason and one reason only...money, which is what capitalism is all about. They created this digital item and have every right in the world to sell it as they see fit. It is not my place nor yours to say if they are right or wrong...they invented/created it...they sell it...PERIOD The same goes for any other product in the world...it is made to make money for the creator...if you like it you buy it...if you don't, THEN DON"T This is why you see a rampage of lawsuits from everyone on the street to corporations and business's because somebody used somebody's invention or this is not fair or they didnt do it the right way...it goes on and on and on.

Apple DID lock down their phone for their advantage...your right....but your wrong about the phone network....they do deserve a cut because IT IS THEIR PRODUCT and CREATION and that is how they CONTRACTED it to the network and the ones that pay for it are the ONES THAT WANT TO pay for it. And another reason they locked it down is to give whiner boys like yourself a reason to BITCH about something else that isnt their way.

For your simple minded information...my phone bill is now CHEAPER with my iPhone and AT&T contract then it was with Verizon and my Treo so your info is unfounded. I am neither gullable nor am I being gouged. I did my research, made my comparisons and made a decision that I felt was right for my phone/data usage. I am not an apple fan....I use a Sony computer w/windows and love it...never had a problem. I did use an iPod for my media but before that it was a multitude of MP3 players that were waterproof or had FM radio or god knows whatever option. Point being...If you don't like something then DON'T BUY it or Sign a contract and better yet...grow up and quit whinin about something that over 1 million users and growing love!

eastcoastsurfer
Dec 4, 2007, 03:20 PM
Region encoded DVD's are actually quite sensible. Aside from the Spiderman or X-Men sequals --- 99% of the movies are shown at different times of the year in various parts of the world.

Why? Because Americans don't go to the movies in the middle of a giant snow storm in January or February. For the last 20 years, Jackie Chan has always opened his movies during Chinese New Year in January or February in Hong Kong. When you watch Australian Open tennis in January --- you can see Australians bringing their kids to see the matches during their summer holidays.

They are only sensible from the studios point of view. Region encoding is a loss for consumers.

christian_k
Dec 4, 2007, 03:20 PM
Its quite simple really...if you want it to work properly and do everything it was designed to do then that is the customer advantage. If you don't like it the way its offered then...geeeeee whiz.....DONT BUY IT!

If you are in Germany and are willing to pay for an unlocked iPhone, why not simply buy one in France? Currently there is a special offer, you can get a ticket to Paris and back on the Thalys for just 29€. There are also cheap flights available. Buy your unlocked iPhone there, it will be cheaper than what T-Mobile offered - Have a nice visit to Paris and forget about T-Mobile and that f.... court.

Christian

samab
Dec 4, 2007, 03:23 PM
If you are in Germany and are willing to pay for an unlocked iPhone, why not simply buy one in France? Currently there is a special offer, you can get a ticket to Paris and back on the Thalys for just 29€. There are also cheap flights available. Buy your unlocked iPhone there, it will be cheaper than what T-Mobile offered - Have a nice visit to Paris and forget about T-Mobile and that f.... court.

Christian

Except that they are looking for all sorts of French ID before they sell you a French iphone.

eastcoastsurfer
Dec 4, 2007, 03:24 PM
...and the other side of the coin is "YOU" who are blinded by hate toward something you just can't grasp or accept. You are right, the iPhone IS locked down for one reason and one reason only...money, which is what capitalism is all about. They created this digital item and have every right in the world to sell it as they see fit. It is not my place nor yours to say if they are right or wrong...they invented/created it...they sell it...PERIOD The same goes for any other product in the world...it is made to make money for the creator...if you like it you buy it...if you don't, THEN DON"T This is why you see a rampage of lawsuits from everyone on the street to corporations and business's because somebody used somebody's invention or this is not fair or they didnt do it the right way...it goes on and on and on.

Apple DID lock down their phone for their advantage...your right....but your wrong about the phone network....they do deserve a cut because IT IS THEIR PRODUCT and CREATION and that is how they CONTRACTED it to the network and the ones that pay for it are the ONES THAT WANT TO pay for it. And another reason they locked it down is to give whiner boys like yourself a reason to BITCH about something else that isnt their way.

For your simple minded information...my phone bill is now CHEAPER with my iPhone and AT&T contract then it was with Verizon and my Treo so your info is unfounded. I am neither gullable nor am I being gouged. I did my research, made my comparisons and made a decision that I felt was right for my phone/data usage. I am not an apple fan....I use a Sony computer w/windows and love it...never had a problem. I did use an iPod for my media but before that it was a multitude of MP3 players that were waterproof or had FM radio or god knows whatever option. Point being...If you don't like something then DON'T BUY it or Sign a contract and better yet...grow up and quit whinin about something that over 1 million users and growing love!

My only problem with Apple is that they actively attempt to re-lock the hardware. It's your hardware and you should be able to do what you want with it. Now that we know Apple has allowed unlocked phones out in the wild, I expect an unbreakable unlock in the near future.

samab
Dec 4, 2007, 03:34 PM
My only problem with Apple is that they actively attempt to re-lock the hardware. It's your hardware and you should be able to do what you want with it. Now that we know Apple has allowed unlocked phones out in the wild, I expect an unbreakable unlock in the near future.

What Apple is doing is that they are actually not actively attempt to brick your iphone. What they are doing is "being lazy" and not check whether you altered the firmware or not.

It's like you are driving a car and expects all the other people follow traffic laws --- other cars signal for every turn and people don't jaywalk. You will get into accidents if you do that.

OllyW
Dec 4, 2007, 03:41 PM
It's not Apple's fault that the iphone plans in Europe is way more expensive than normal ones.

AT&T's iphone plan is basically a standard voice plan plus their regular price $20 data plan. No price gouging in the US.

Yes it is Apple's fault. The 30-40% cut they are demanding from the phone companies has to come from somewhere and it is the consumer who ends up paying for it.

SFC Archer
Dec 4, 2007, 03:44 PM
My only problem with Apple is that they actively attempt to re-lock the hardware. It's your hardware and you should be able to do what you want with it. Now that we know Apple has allowed unlocked phones out in the wild, I expect an unbreakable unlock in the near future.

I agree with you...it is frustrating...I love the ability to put my daughters voice as a ringtone "Daddy you have a Phone Call" with this last update and know that it was mistake and will be eventually locked out and I will be stuck with music tones again...but I accept that because I understand the terms that came with me buying this phone.

Again, Apple invented this phone and have every right to market, sell, distribute, contract and change to their hearts content. What most fail to understand or comprehend is that as consumers if we dont buy a product then that product will be changed, price lowered or it will disappear from the market like the Newton did. When over 1 million people have purchased and use the phone as is (for the most part) and sales keep going up then why should they change their strategy...they are a company and company's make money...its a straight up fact.

If you invented the smallest, fastest, most efficient PDA in the world and you were making millions off of this new invention because it was the best in the world...would you open up your invention for others to emulate, copy and make better? This would eventually cut into your market and product...Apple is only trying to protect its interests as long as possible because they know what they have and the world does as well. This is why you have the jealous haters and those that accept as is and those that think they can make it better. This form of debate will always happen with any great invention that changes the way users do business.

Take for example...and some may be to young to remember...Sep 11, 2001...yup the famous 911 day. Air travel was simple, easy, hassle free prior to that famous day, but everything changed...the security on everything went crazy and overboard and to this day we still have to take our shoes off to board an airplane-the world changed and we adapted....well, Apple has done the same thing with the iPhone...it has changed the way the world uses cell phones...this is a next step in evolution (even though somethings are missing) otherwise it would not be selling so well, otherwise there would not be hundreds if not thousands of blogs, websites and forums discussing this product and think of all the debates like this one going on. We all must adapt to change and take it for what it is...Apple can do what they want with a product that they created and haters can piss and moan about it till they have strokes or stress attacks but in the end the only thing that will cause change is to stop buying the phone or cell contracts...and I sure don't see that happening anytime soon. Its all common sense stuff and if your open minded then you will accept if not then I feel real sorry for those that hate change, restrictions and apple and look at life with a glass half empty.

samab
Dec 4, 2007, 03:50 PM
Yes it is Apple's fault. The 30-40% cut they are demanding from the phone companies has to come from somewhere and it is the consumer who ends up paying for it.

AT&T manages to both price their iphone plans cheap and satisfies with Apple demands at the same time.

MacCurry
Dec 4, 2007, 03:53 PM
This debate has been going on long before the phone got to Europe. The simple fact is...Apple talked to those cellular networks that showed an interest in the iPhone. They presented their contracts, rates propositions etc. and those that agreed became carriers...those that didnt like whatever the contract offered...declined. It is that simple. I want NFL Ticket on my cable TV...guess what...can't get it...I would have to go satellite route and sign that contract. Same goes for a silly cell phone...if you want a specific one then you go where its offered...if you don't like it then you don't get it...so I watch what is offered for the weekend on the NFL and grin and bear it. Its called life, its not a perfect world and every "single" individual can NOT be catered to ... a happy medium is established and adapted to. It does not matter if its a benefit to the customer or the company...for some its a benefit to the customer as is...they are the happy users of the iPhone...for others it is not...they are the happy users of some other cell phone. Accept it for what it is and move on in life...as you said yourself...your not interested in one so why bother...its a cell phone that with in a year will be replaced anyway.

:) :) :)

Hey its life if you don't like it accept it and move on. Just say that to the folks in China may not like Hu, or Venezualans may not like Chavez, or North Koreans may not like Kim, or Cubans may not like Castro, or the Pakistanis may not like Musharraf, or the Iranians may not like Amnidinijad. Just grin and bear it.:)

cameronjpu
Dec 4, 2007, 04:04 PM
Ok, I don't get it. Please explain to me: What exactly is the advantage for the customer if the iPhone is available from only one provider? (or are you working for T-mobile? In that case I see why you think it's positive).

A world where an iPhone exists and is sold to the public.

sblasl
Dec 4, 2007, 04:10 PM
Nicely said.:)

Now if we can only get you to get "The fastest Windows Vista notebook we've tested this year--or for that matter, ever--is a Mac." - PCMag.com. You'll really be a happy camper.;)

...and the other side of the coin is "YOU" who are blinded by hate toward something you just can't grasp or accept. You are right, the iPhone IS locked down for one reason and one reason only...money, which is what capitalism is all about. They created this digital item and have every right in the world to sell it as they see fit. It is not my place nor yours to say if they are right or wrong...they invented/created it...they sell it...PERIOD The same goes for any other product in the world...it is made to make money for the creator...if you like it you buy it...if you don't, THEN DON"T This is why you see a rampage of lawsuits from everyone on the street to corporations and business's because somebody used somebody's invention or this is not fair or they didnt do it the right way...it goes on and on and on.

Apple DID lock down their phone for their advantage...your right....but your wrong about the phone network....they do deserve a cut because IT IS THEIR PRODUCT and CREATION and that is how they CONTRACTED it to the network and the ones that pay for it are the ONES THAT WANT TO pay for it. And another reason they locked it down is to give whiner boys like yourself a reason to BITCH about something else that isnt their way.

For your simple minded information...my phone bill is now CHEAPER with my iPhone and AT&T contract then it was with Verizon and my Treo so your info is unfounded. I am neither gullable nor am I being gouged. I did my research, made my comparisons and made a decision that I felt was right for my phone/data usage. I am not an apple fan....I use a Sony computer w/windows and love it...never had a problem. I did use an iPod for my media but before that it was a multitude of MP3 players that were waterproof or had FM radio or god knows whatever option. Point being...If you don't like something then DON'T BUY it or Sign a contract and better yet...grow up and quit whinin about something that over 1 million users and growing love!

christian_k
Dec 4, 2007, 04:16 PM
Except that they are looking for all sorts of French ID before they sell you a French iphone.

No. Orange is a company itself and they also earn money on every unlocked phone they sell. They won't make that doo difficoult.

SFC Archer
Dec 4, 2007, 04:21 PM
Nicely said.:)

Now if we can only get you to get "The fastest Windows Vista notebook we've tested this year--or for that matter, ever--is a Mac." - PCMag.com. You'll really be a happy camper.;)



LOL...Thanks...but only if you give it to me for free! I love my gaming to much! Nothing wrong with the Mac's at all and I have never and will never cut down a Mac computer...IMHO all are good at something and all have their equal flaws at one time or another. None are perfect and each user has a pref. Someday I may try a Mac out but will never leave my PC. Oh...and they haven't sold me on vista yet...Im die hard XP!

And Thanks for the Support!!!

ClassicMac247
Dec 4, 2007, 04:27 PM
thats a bummer, it was nice to have officially unlocked phones in a country other than france.

zombitronic
Dec 4, 2007, 04:51 PM
And this ruling does nothing to encourage competition. Exactly the opposite. T-Moble/Apple can now do what they want with the plan, including reducing the contents increasing price and the consumer can do F all about it.

Had the decision gone in favor of Vodafone, and the iPhone been available on any plan, then companies like Vodafone, O2, etc would have put out similar plans which undercut T-Mobile. That wont now happen as you and I can not buy the iPhone unlocked.

So you believe that Vodafone pushed this lawsuit because they felt the iPhone was not a competitive product? Then why did they want it unlocked and available to be used on their network? My guess is that they saw it as a competitive threat. It encourages competition because if these mobile service providers who do not sell the iPhone want the business of the customers who are buying iPhones on their competitors networks, they need to partner with a manufacturer who makes something as desirable as the iPhone and bundle it with a package that they feel will draw some potential iPhone customers their way.

Also, once you sign into a contract, that's your plan. If the plan changes you can get out. Especially T-Mobile. Some people got out of their contracts right before the iPhone was released in the States because they changed the price of text messaging.

Just because the pair of companies working together is not the pair that you prefer, it does not make either of them anti-competitive, or monopolistic, or whatever the general consensus is.

Again, the Square/Nintendo analogy. Two companies team up to weaken the competition by strengthening themselves by combining services/products. If the competition wants, they can COMPETE and try a similar partnership strategy or try a completely different strategy that they feel will draw consumers to their product/service.

weckart
Dec 4, 2007, 05:06 PM
Except that they are looking for all sorts of French ID before they sell you a French iphone.

Apple is carrying out credit checks for people wanting to purchase a phone and a contract. This is not unreasonable. The credit check is obviated for an unlocked phone, however, as this is a one-off payment.

It would be utterly illegal for Apple or Orange to request ID of any sort before selling an unlocked phone in France, as this would fall foul of local racism laws (we only sell to the French) and EU competition laws.

Beardy man
Dec 4, 2007, 05:35 PM
Those of us living in a country where the Iphone is legitimitly offered, then I guess... yeah, suck it up, switch to ATT/T-moblile/etc and get on with your life.

But what about us who live in countries where the iphone isn't offerered yet, and there doesn't seem to be any plans to offer it in the forseeable future? (Canada for one?)


...and what about those of us living in a country that has already got iPhone..but, they picked the wrong carrier? In the UK O2 coverage sucks. I'd have an iPhone in a heartbeat but where I live there is no EDGE coverage, WIFI is useless for me. The shame is that Orange has superb coverage. How come Orange are good enough for Apple to deal with in France but not UK? Deffo not the best deal for the customer here, Apple grabbing the best deal for them. I reckon it'll tank in the UK (seems to have so far)

Otaviano
Dec 4, 2007, 06:09 PM
Except that they are looking for all sorts of French ID before they sell you a French iphone.

They can't deny to sell you an unlocked phone because you're not from France.

Eddiestein
Dec 4, 2007, 06:12 PM
I don't understand.

I know the unlocked iPhone will not be sold in Germany any longer, but the title says "T-Mobile relocks iPhone in Germany". So if you paid 999 euros for an unlocked phone then your phone is now useless without a T-Mobile contract?

If that's the case then they should refund everyone the difference, at the very least.

Eddie

PDE
Dec 4, 2007, 06:48 PM
Why on earth would anybody defend Apple's strategy of locking down the phone, creating a large black market and generally making using an iphone seamlessly internationally hideously expensive and awkward (like the caller id issue)? It just doesn't make any sense to me that people would side against their own interests.

ogee
Dec 4, 2007, 07:23 PM
Except that they are looking for all sorts of French ID before they sell you a French iphone.

Which would be illegal as (for example) a UK citizen could be resident in France, and it would be classed as discrimination (based on nationality) which would also be illegal. They could ask for proof of residency, but thats all.

EagerDragon
Dec 4, 2007, 07:25 PM
What makes it illegal to sell them there now? This is getting as dumb as region encoded DVDs.

Most countries require that radio devices be certified, it is not legal to sell a device without the certification. EU has one, US has one, more than likely Canada has the same type of requirement.

While you can probably use a EU or US phone there, I don't believe it is legal to sell it without the certification. Who knows if there are other rules about its use also.

EagerDragon
Dec 4, 2007, 07:27 PM
Wow... So which one are you? an arrogent american who thinks that he is blessed by the heavens cause he lives in america or are you someone who has his underware wound so tight that he/she can't bend the rules no matter what?

LONG LIVE BIG BROTHER!

Are you always an ASS, or was it something special about the post I did for someone else?

ogee
Dec 4, 2007, 07:46 PM
So you believe that Vodafone pushed this lawsuit because they felt the iPhone was not a competitive product?

No thats not what I said or believe.

The main point of the original lawsuit, as I read it, was that T-Mobile was restricting the customers options by limiting the iPhone to 1 of 3 plans, and preventing customers from buying an unlocked phone for use on another network. They went on to say that this *could* cause a precedence in that future phones may be locked to specific carriers and plans.

Now, we all know that there are exclusive phones on all networks, including Vodafone, but these phones upto now have been available on all plans, and when bought for full price (as the iPhone is), or as part of a contract then they are also unlocked.

The wonderful post iPhone future is that all high end phone could be sold at full price, locked down hard and offered with limited (and expensive) plans.

This could olso overflow to other product lines. Ford cars bought in Texas are not allowed to drive out of state. Use olny Texaco oil or at your next service we will lock your engine management computer. Your next Apple Mac can only be used with .Mac mail. Any attempt to use another internet mail service will be a breach off license. And so on.

I would love to have an iPhone, but I am happy with Vodafone and am about to renew my contract. I pay 10 Euros amonth for my plan. The minimum iPhone plan is 50 Euros. I have had very bad experience with T-Mobile which ended up with legal action being taken against me, (I won btw). T-Mobile/iPhone is not an option.

My original point was that had the iPhone been made available to all operators, even on the current markup system and locked down, then the competition between the operators would have caused a selection of comparative tariffs available to choose from, probably at lower prices or including more minutes/data.

The argument that I could get an N95 for some other phone is not the point. We are talking iPhone here.

EagerDragon
Dec 4, 2007, 08:28 PM
They can't deny to sell you an unlocked phone because you're not from France.

I am not sure if this is correct or not, I heard it second hand ..... I heard that the phone for France was unlocked but would only work with the French cell providers, like I said this could be way off.

Anyone knows for sure?

samab
Dec 4, 2007, 09:47 PM
The main point of the original lawsuit, as I read it, was that T-Mobile was restricting the customers options by limiting the iPhone to 1 of 3 plans, and preventing customers from buying an unlocked phone for use on another network. They went on to say that this *could* cause a precedence in that future phones may be locked to specific carriers and plans.

Now, we all know that there are exclusive phones on all networks, including Vodafone, but these phones upto now have been available on all plans, and when bought for full price (as the iPhone is), or as part of a contract then they are also unlocked.

My original point was that had the iPhone been made available to all operators, even on the current markup system and locked down, then the competition between the operators would have caused a selection of comparative tariffs available to choose from, probably at lower prices or including more minutes/data.

The main point of the Vodafone lawsuit is this is just a nuisance lawsuit withoiut a leg to stand on. If T-Mobile Germany or Apple had even a faint feeling that they are standing on shaky ground --- then they would have crafted complex tariff plans like in the French iphone.

Blackberries and Danger Sidekicks have specialized plans --- even in Germany.

iPhone exclusivity has nothing to do with high tariff plans in Europe. AT&T manages to put together a iphone specific plan that is just regular price voice plan plus regular $20 data plan. AT&T didn't charge a single cent in premium for their iphone plans --- why? Because there are enough competition in the US mobile service market. The German mobile service market is not competitive to begin with --- the iphone has nothing to do with it.

Why on earth would anybody defend Apple's strategy of locking down the phone, creating a large black market and generally making using an iphone seamlessly internationally hideously expensive and awkward (like the caller id issue)? It just doesn't make any sense to me that people would side against their own interests.

Because you are blaming the wrong people.

If international carriers charge insane amounts in roaming fees --- then blame the international carriers, don't blame apple. What we are talking about is Vodafone UK subscribers travelling to Germany and roaming on Vodafone Germany --- and got charged insane roaming fees.

...and what about those of us living in a country that has already got iPhone..but, they picked the wrong carrier? In the UK O2 coverage sucks. I'd have an iPhone in a heartbeat but where I live there is no EDGE coverage, WIFI is useless for me. The shame is that Orange has superb coverage. How come Orange are good enough for Apple to deal with in France but not UK? Deffo not the best deal for the customer here, Apple grabbing the best deal for them. I reckon it'll tank in the UK (seems to have so far)

Only a weak carrier would pay a king's ransom for the iphone --- so by definition, you ain't going to get the best network.

Dembo
Dec 5, 2007, 06:48 AM
Aside from the fight over whether locking a phone down is good or bad:

So far T-Mobile is the only carrier which substantially adjusted their rate plans: You are now getting free land-line and T-Mobile calls over the weekend and the price of excess minutes has been lowered by 25%.

The plans are still somewhere between “sportive” and “outrageous”, however, do you guys really think they started offering better plans because the (locked) iPhone is selling like crazy?

I always thought that the T-Mobile plans are testing the waters: Can we sell an outrageous contract combined with a locked phone. Apparently the answer is “nah, not really”. I hope Apple listens. When going for smaller markets (think: Austria) a carrier could easily snatch the exclusive rights to the iPhone simply to keep competitors from offering the device. How easy would it be for Apple to re-negotiate the exclusive contract when the thing does not sell at all?

And would this be “good” for the consumer?

Manic Mouse
Dec 5, 2007, 07:22 AM
...and the other side of the coin is "YOU" who are blinded by hate toward something you just can't grasp or accept. You are right, the iPhone IS locked down for one reason and one reason only...money, which is what capitalism is all about. They created this digital item and have every right in the world to sell it as they see fit. It is not my place nor yours to say if they are right or wrong...they invented/created it...they sell it...PERIOD The same goes for any other product in the world...it is made to make money for the creator...if you like it you buy it...if you don't, THEN DON"T

I never said I was going to buy one, that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on the iPhone or that my opinion isn't valid. You see this is also how capitalism works, people don't have to take what they're given. They are perfectly entitled to complain about what they think are overpriced goods.

You've admitted that what you said about the iPhone being locked down "for consumer advantage" is rubbish. That's all I had a problem with.

Apple DID lock down their phone for their advantage...your right....but your wrong about the phone network....they do deserve a cut because IT IS THEIR PRODUCT and CREATION and that is how they CONTRACTED it to the network and the ones that pay for it are the ONES THAT WANT TO pay for it. And another reason they locked it down is to give whiner boys like yourself a reason to BITCH about something else that isnt their way.

I didn't say they couldn't demand a cut of the network fee, but that they don't deserve it. Which is entirely true. Apple add nothing to the network, they provide no services or goods for which money can be exchanged. Does Honda deserve a cut of what you pay for gas? Does Apple deserve a cut of what you pay for internet? The same logic applies, and the answer is always "no". They are getting money for allowing you to use the iPhone (which you bought and own) on someone's network. They aren't giving you anything for which they can be paid. They can do it, but it's not exactly consumer orientated.

For your simple minded information...my phone bill is now CHEAPER with my iPhone and AT&T contract then it was with Verizon and my Treo so your info is unfounded. I am neither gullable nor am I being gouged. I did my research, made my comparisons and made a decision that I felt was right for my phone/data usage. I am not an apple fan....I use a Sony computer w/windows and love it...never had a problem. I did use an iPod for my media but before that it was a multitude of MP3 players that were waterproof or had FM radio or god knows whatever option. Point being...If you don't like something then DON'T BUY it or Sign a contract and better yet...grow up and quit whinin about something that over 1 million users and growing love!

Well I'm basing my calculations on EU contracts (which is what this story is about, no?) not US ones. The UK and German "iPhone contracts" are horrible.

I think I'm not the one who needs to grow up... What kind of person thinks you need to own something to be allowed to express an opinion on it? Your entire argument is "you don't own one so shut up", while inserting words like "whine" and "BITCH" here and there for good measure. Good one. I better not see you posting on anything Mac related, as you don't own one.

Work on the spelling and punctuation too, when you're telling someone to "grow up" it helps if you don't write it like a seven year old.

goosnarrggh
Dec 5, 2007, 08:00 AM
They are only sensible from the studios point of view. Region encoding is a loss for consumers.

In some jurisdictions (Australia comes to mind) it is effectively mandatory that all DVD players must be able to play DVDs from all region codes transparently.

If it is not practical to provide automatic, transparent region compatibility due to some fundamental aspect of the design of the DVD player, but the player does provide a feature allowing the device to be manually reconfigured to switch amongst a set of supported region codes (and this is the case for virtually all standalone DVD players in production today, albeit access to the reconfiguration option is often hidden, or the reconfiguration mechanism may only be designed to work a limited number of times), then instructions must be provided showing the user how to access to the option, and it must be made possible to preform such reconfiguration an unlimited number of times.

SFC Archer
Dec 5, 2007, 08:26 AM
I never said I was going to buy one, that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on the iPhone or that my opinion isn't valid. You see this is also how capitalism works, people don't have to take what they're given. They are perfectly entitled to complain about what they think are overpriced goods.

This is my whole point to your ranting and raving along with all of those that are like you. You get on these forums, without an iPhone, without an iPhone contract, with no hands on user experience whatsoever....and Troll. You whine and cry about something you dont have, dont intend to get and I am so tired (and Im sure many others as well) of seeing and reading it. If you had one or intended to get one then your "opinion" would have merit...but all you are right now is a bag of hot air!

I didn't say they couldn't demand a cut of the network fee, but that they don't deserve it. Which is entirely true. Apple add nothing to the network, they provide no services or goods for which money can be exchanged. Does Honda deserve a cut of what you pay for gas? Does Apple deserve a cut of what you pay for internet? The same logic applies, and the answer is always "no". They are getting money for allowing you to use the iPhone (which you bought and own) on someone's network. They aren't giving you anything for which they can be paid. They can do it, but it's not exactly consumer orientated.

The same holds true here...You don't deserve to post on this thread because you don't have or intend to get an iPhone. How many different ways do you want me to say the same thing: It does NOT matter wheather Apple deserves a cut of the network fees or not...Apple made an offer to T-Mobile, O2 and all the other European mobile services and it was T-MOBILE that ACCEPTED the proposal and signed the contract to distribute a product. So it is all a mute point wheather you like it or not...it happened and users are agreeing to the contract with T-Mobile and iPhones are selling more and more. By inventing the i"PHONE" which can only be used on a "NETWORK" they do deserve a part of the network fee because that is what was "AGREED" to by your own T-Mobile. And yes they are giving you the ability to "COMMUNICATE" in a different way with a different product which is "WHY" they are getting paid for it and deserve the fee for the product they created to be used on that said network. If they hadn't created the iPhone then all of this would be for not and you would still be whining about some other product on some other website because that is just the type of individual you are...nothing will ever be right or acceptable to your type.


Well I'm basing my calculations on EU contracts (which is what this story is about, no?) not US ones. The UK and German "iPhone contracts" are horrible.

...and this is Apple's fault??? I think not. It is the fault of your non-competitive market in Europe because it is all government controlled by laws against this and that. My U.S. contract was an example...not a standard. It is your mobile companies that are establishing your tariff rates and the government taxes. Apple has nothing to do with it...they recieve the same amount per iPhone everywhere in the world...the only increase that Apple includes is the cost of international shipping which they have every right to recoup from the consumer.

I think I'm not the one who needs to grow up... What kind of person thinks you need to own something to be allowed to express an opinion on it? Your entire argument is "you don't own one so shut up", while inserting words like "whine" and "BITCH" here and there for good measure. Good one. I better not see you posting on anything Mac related, as you don't own one.

Many, many users think the same way I do and look at those that don't use or have the product as trolls because you have nothing to base your assumptions or discussions on. I would surmize that you are very insecure or jealous and that is why you post what you do...to gain attention and security to fill that void of..."I don't have one so I will make everyone else miserable too" or "I can't afford one because of (insert reason) and so I will make it rough on everyone else too" I have never and will never post on a Mac computer because I do not have one...I do not spout off about a product I have no knowledge of...even on my Apple forum posts, I have told users that if they are using a Mac that my answers are for PC users because that is where my knowledge lies...unlike yourself.

Work on the spelling and punctuation too, when you're telling someone to "grow up" it helps if you don't write it like a seven year old.

...and here I rest my case and will not respond to your rants any further...You are so desperate for replies and attention that you want me to post in a "forum" in SA format. Obviously, they way I have posted and typed and punctuated has gotten my point across and the "emphasis" has had it's effect. You have run out of steam so are trying to find something else in life that is half empty to you so that you can continue your pathetic attempt to be someone. I wish you luck in your life and hope that someday you will see the light and a half FULL glass!

Oh...any by the way...here are 30,000 more examples of people who disagree with you and what Apple deserves.
http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/news/comments/orange-30000-iphones-sold-in-five-days/12011

mpw
Dec 5, 2007, 08:55 AM
...and this is Apple's fault??? I think not. It is the fault of your non-competitive market in Europe because it is all government controlled by laws against this and that...
How is the US mobile market more competitive than the UK market?

I haven't read your whole rant, but based on the few statements like this I have read you don't display any great knowledge of what you're talking about.

Have/do you even have an account with a european mobile provider?

One of the promlems I see with the iPhone is it doesn't really compete with many other phones, most of which are phone first whereas the iPhone is above all else an iPod. Other phones are sold as hardware whereas the iPhone is sold as part of a closed system.

When Jobs launched the thing he compared it against a bunch of business smartphones, but it doesn't compete with them lacking many basic features. People have to see it for what it is, an iPod with a phone, and like the iPod in buying it you accept the restrictions Apple see fit to put on your use of your hardware and accept that those restrictive practices are there solely for Apple's benefit at your cost.

SFC Archer
Dec 5, 2007, 09:35 AM
How is the US mobile market more competitive than the UK market?.

I never did state this in any of my posts...the poster was talking about how expensive the plans are in the UK market...I was only stating "MY" example as to how much I was paying and that it was in fact cheaper then my previous contract with another carrier.

I haven't read your whole rant, but based on the few statements like this I have read you don't display any great knowledge of what you're talking about.

...and you do? What makes your qualifications any higher then mine? It may help you read my whole "rant" so that you can understand the whole discussion, there are at least 3 different posts in this thread. I have never stated that I know it all, it is just common sense that most everyday normal individuals use before making snap calls without reading all that is posted.

Have/do you even have an account with a european mobile provider?

Nope...and unless life makes a drastic change, never will. Just using what the other poster was stating.

One of the promlems I see with the iPhone is it doesn't really compete with many other phones, most of which are phone first whereas the iPhone is above all else an iPod. Other phones are sold as hardware whereas the iPhone is sold as part of a closed system.

...and? This means what? If I remember some of what Steve said...the iPhone wasn't necessarily made to "compete with other phones" it was made "different". That it would change the way cell phones were used.

When Jobs launched the thing he compared it against a bunch of business smartphones, but it doesn't compete with them lacking many basic features. People have to see it for what it is, an iPod with a phone, and like the iPod in buying it you accept the restrictions Apple see fit to put on your use of your hardware and accept that those restrictive practices are there solely for Apple's benefit at your cost.

Are they basic features? Or are those the features that are expected by those that are used to the same old thing and have a hard time accepting change. I can pretty much safely say that users "see it for what it is" Over 1 million users seem to be adapting just fine to those "missing features". More and more phones are sold every day (30K in 5 days in France) and those users are adapting just fine. Sure we miss our MM and Cut and Paste (is your phone a computer first or a cell phone) and Games (hmm is your phone a gameboy first or a cell phone) or 3G which is suppose to be faster...don't know, don't care...its fast enough for my use. http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/12/04/verizon_sides_with_google_new_get_a_mac_ad_iphone_speed_boost.html

I don't see any restrictions imposed by Apple, I did my research, like what I saw, saw that it fit my use behaviors and purchased it. For those things that are missing...I have already adapted and adjusted and do not feel the loss at all. What I don't miss are all of the non-intermeshed, buggy, freezing third party apps that my Treo had...to a point where I never used anything but the phone and sometimes the music player that kept freezing. So...no...I dont miss the old ways or the so called basic features...I have moved on and adapted. I am not restricted at all, in fact I use this phone in ALL of its capacities more then any of my previous "smart" phones combined.

Great Discussion, hopefully I have answered your questions without insult because none is intended!

takao
Dec 5, 2007, 10:58 AM
I always thought that the T-Mobile plans are testing the waters: Can we sell an outrageous contract combined with a locked phone. Apparently the answer is “nah, not really”. I hope Apple listens. When going for smaller markets (think: Austria) a carrier could easily snatch the exclusive rights to the iPhone simply to keep competitors from offering the device.

yeah austria is going to a totally different ballpark compared to germany .. i wouldn't be surprised to see none of the providers being too keen on getting the device if they have to give up so much money like apple demands ... they are working on razor thin margins anyway.. perhaps the mobilkom will add it and then put it in some glas shelf or something ...
the low cost tariffs are so dominating right now that introducing high priced special tariffs simply wont cut it ... t-mobile tried and market share wise they failed

samab
Dec 5, 2007, 02:30 PM
When going for smaller markets (think: Austria) a carrier could easily snatch the exclusive rights to the iPhone simply to keep competitors from offering the device. How easy would it be for Apple to re-negotiate the exclusive contract when the thing does not sell at all?

The iphone deal probably doesn't include "minimum sales level" in which the carrier guarantees a certain number of iphones be sold in their country.

AT&T has promoted its own online music stores after the iphone is launched. Apple has also promoted wifi service on the iphone with Starbucks --- which is provided by T-Mobile USA.

The iphone deal is very "loose". The carrier can screw Apple and Apple can screw the carrier.

Well I'm basing my calculations on EU contracts (which is what this story is about, no?) not US ones. The UK and German "iPhone contracts" are horrible.

Perhaps you should consider that the European carriers (or various national governments in Europe) are at fault, not Apple. France has only 3 national carriers --- that's a recipe for price gouging. Germany has the top 2 carriers with 2/3 of the mobile market --- that's also not a good sign. UK has Hutchison 3 that occasionally do a price war (but Superman Li doesn't really seem to care about operating a business --- it's more like they are periodically "window dressed" their business and trying to do an IPO).

How is the US mobile market more competitive than the UK market?

It is competitive by the fact that the number 2 carrier (verizon wireless) was strong enough to say no to the iphone and still pulled in more net retail subscribers adds in Q3 than AT&T with the iphone.

In other words, AT&T (the largest US carrier) didn't have the competitiveness required to charge "premiums" on the iphone plan --- which is just the regular priced voice plan rate plus the regular priced data rate.

yeah austria is going to a totally different ballpark compared to germany

Apple is really not going to care about a country with 8 million people. It's like how the iphone is not available in the states of vermont and alaska.

weg
Dec 5, 2007, 04:47 PM
This is getting as dumb as region encoded DVDs.

Which would be a good idea, if only Steve Jobs had invented them :D

weg
Dec 5, 2007, 04:50 PM
Apple is really not going to care about a country with 8 million people.

Don't forget the kangaroos. Apple don't wanna mess with a bunch of angry kangaroos...

mpw
Dec 5, 2007, 04:54 PM
Don't forget the kangaroos. Apple don't wanna mess with a bunch of angry kangaroos...
Austria doesn't have many kangaroos, I think Jobs is safe.

weg
Dec 5, 2007, 04:59 PM
Austria doesn't have many kangaroos, I think Jobs is safe.

Tell that to the kangaroos (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4813976.stm) :D

unigolyn
Dec 5, 2007, 05:26 PM
Its quite simple really...if you want it to work properly and do everything it was designed to do then that is the customer advantage. If you don't like it the way its offered then...geeeeee whiz.....DONT BUY IT! Quit your whinin and go back to Burger King...there you can get it your way. If you you want to make a change in someones business model then I suggest you start working for a CEO slot so that "YOU" can make a change. Apple made the decision with T-Mobile, the courts saw in favor of said contract and that is just the way the cookie crumbles, so get over it and move on!

Like, what the *******. You:

1) Don't know what you're talking about
2) Are using an abusive tone for no reason
3) Are apparently a masochist

1 - Saying that the iPhone experience is dependent on the network is complete horse manure. It just does not compute. GSM is a standard, and all operators follow the standard. The only, and I do mean ONLY thing offered by AT&T is the world's dumbest non-feature, visual voicemail. And if a popular phone like the iPhone offered it, all major networks would introduce the trivial software update to their systems. Pretending that AT&T has put any R&D into the iPhone is nonsense.

2 - People are not "whiners" when they want carrier independence. Would you buy a car that only allowed Esso fuel? Would you buy an iMac that only allowed you to use Comcast as an ISP? Or would you be "whining"?

As to your idiotic burger analogy, let's explore that. Burger King may advertise customizable burgers, but in fact every single burger joint will hold the onions or risk being sued to kingdom come by the family of someone who died of anaphylactic shock. "Don't put X in my food" is something we all take for granted, just like the fact that when we get a Sony TV we can attach an LG DVD player to it, or an Apple TV, or an Xbox 360 instead of a PS3.

There are ZERO technological reasons for carrier-exclusive phones and two or three-year contracts. Since telecommunications is a hugely regulated industry, market forces are not allowed to work as usual. And that's why cellular operators get away with completely ridiculous business practices. And unlike a private entrepreneur, this is NOT their prerogative, because they are licensed by governments to use public RF bandwidth. It's in the interests of every consumer to push for antitrust laws that prevent telco mergers and laws supporting carrier independence and number portability.

3. We all like Apple, but come on, Mussolini and Hitler had few supporters who were quite as rabidly myopic as you seem to be. Apple making superb products doesn't lead to every business partner of Apple's being the bee's knees - and every decision Apple makes is not VERBOTEN! to be criticized because "If you don't like it, go make your own $200B tech company!". I bet you got angry at people decrying iTunes DRM, right until The Steve wrote that open letter, at which point your cookie crumbled in a different sort of way. You remind me of that prisoner in Life of Brian "Oh, what I wouldn't do to be spat at in the face...terrific race, the Romans".

samab
Dec 5, 2007, 05:45 PM
It's in the interests of every consumer to push for antitrust laws that prevent telco mergers and laws supporting carrier independence and number portability.

I agree --- the "mundane" stuff like national uniform laws on ETF, trial periods, "hidden" contract extensions, deposit returns... these are the stuff that will help consumers.

Geeks advocating that the FCC should put forward some kind of sim-locking laws are just plain wrong in their priorities. Look at Europe --- with all the sim-locking laws, they managed to have a more expensive iphone and more expensive iphone plans.

megfilmworks
Dec 5, 2007, 08:34 PM
Why on earth would anybody defend Apple's strategy of locking down the phone, creating a large black market and generally making using an iphone seamlessly internationally hideously expensive and awkward (like the caller id issue)? It just doesn't make any sense to me that people would side against their own interests.I use my US iPhone in Europe and Great Britain all the time.
Seamless, no problems with visual voicemail, caller id works great,
data and international roaming with cheap plans, works just like here at home.
I have NEVER had that with my Blackberry or Razr.
And Apple's strategy has been brilliant, at all levels.

And to Unigolyn who posted "The only, and I do mean ONLY thing offered by AT&T is the world's dumbest non-feature, visual voicemail."
To me and many other busy people, this may be one of the top features on the iPhone.
I get 20-30 voicemails every couple of hours and I have to check them and decide who to answer with the few minutes I have between sessions and meetings. If I had to use the old dialup method, without non linear access I would be much less productive and more stressed.

seedster2
Dec 5, 2007, 11:40 PM
I was formerly a Cingular Wireless customer. When I purchased an iPhone, there were no AT&T value added features that compelled me to terminate my contract early and switch. I pay the same amount as I would on an AT&T contract and receive superior customer service. For those under the misconception that AT&T provides something different than any other GSM edge provider is severely misled.

Apple is entitled to negotiate and sell the phone however they please. Although the model was a success in the United States, it has not received the same overwhelming welcome overseas likely due to upfront costs and expensive tariffs. Only the market can dictate whether or not they will have to adjust their approach to keep the phone relevant.

Many posters assume that the contracts negotiated overseas are the same as AT&T which is highly unlikely because they would want to leverage the strong domestic sales to get as much as they possibly could which could account for the inflated tariffs. The Telcos and Apple are all the same greedy corps trying to satisfy shareholders.

Selling a million phones with the amount of press the iPhone received isnt a surprise. I am more surprised by the million HTC Touch phones sold or the 5 million LG shines sold.

Anyone should be able to comment on topics related to a specific business model. Opposing opinions give perspective. Many owners post a lot of worthless diatribe here and arent anymore qualified because they own one.

John Musbach
Dec 6, 2007, 12:51 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

A German court overturned (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7127022.stm) the temporary injunction issued against T-Mobile requiring it to sell unlocked iPhones in Germany.

Due to the injunction, T-Mobile had been required to offer an unlocked version (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/21/t-mobile-selling-unlocked-iphones-in-germany/) of the Apple iPhone in Germany. The unlocked iPhone was priced at 999 euro, well above the standard 399 euro price for an iPhone with a two-year T-Mobile contract.

With this reversal, the unlocked iPhone will no longer be available in Germany, though officially unlocked iPhones will still remain available in France.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/12/04/t-mobile-relocks-iphone-in-germany/)

Uhoh, the pressure is mounting for unlocked iPhones to be exported from France... :D

takao
Dec 6, 2007, 06:17 AM
Tell that to the kangaroos (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4813976.stm) :D

haha that's just too great

and for apple not caring about austria: i guess they don't want to compete because it's too competive for them and already way too much into newer technologies compared to our northern neighbours

(same reason why italy isn't top priority either for apple: it's one of the most ahead countries in terms of UMTS users in europe)

PDE
Dec 6, 2007, 10:17 AM
I use my US iPhone in Europe and Great Britain all the time.
Seamless, no problems with visual voicemail, caller id works great,
data and international roaming with cheap plans, works just like here at home.
I have NEVER had that with my Blackberry or Razr.
And Apple's strategy has been brilliant, at all levels.



Good for you, but it seems that there are people with legitimately unlocked phones having trouble with connecting to their GSM networks outside Germany, and many people have trouble with caller ID formatting when travelling outside some specific Apple-prioritised countries. To say that ATT's international roaming fees for data and voice are cheap is, I suppose, relative to your disposable income. I don't consider it cheap at all, especially not compared to just popping in a local sim card.

(Oh, to return to the old point I made before I weaned myself off the iphone unlock threads: nothing replaces using local sim cards when you need LOCAL people to be able to reach you.)


Anyway...it is what it is.

shyataroo
Dec 6, 2007, 02:57 PM
So, wait I'm confused, does that mean that the iPhones that were unlocked before are now being re-locked? (and thus forcing you to dump your current contract with a cell company and pay off the remaining months+ the termination fee?)I certainly hope not or else your going to see a army of complainers the likes of which has not been seen since the iPhone price drop.