Mac OS 10.5.2, Mac Pro Update At Macworld? [Archive]

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Death Warrant

Dec 5, 2007, 01:56 PM

Hi there

Just as anyone else, I want to open a speculation thread.

According to Hardmac, this seems interessting and make absolutely sense:

As many of our readers requested additional information regarding the date for the launch of the future Mac Pro, we decided to ask our sources for details. Of course, we could not cross confirm all information, but we know that they should be reliable:

Unlike our expectations, one will have to wait for MWSF keynote on January 15th to have Steve jobs announcing the transition to Penryn processors, the Mac Pro being the first. reasons for this delay are numerous, but we were reporting yesterday about some of them:

- Apple is actively working on Leopard to benefit as much as possible from the recently released Intel Mac OS X compiler and libraries, including SSE4 support. Mac OS X 10.5.2 should be released for the keynote and fully takes advantages of the last Intel compiler and libraries. According to our sources, it should be the largest and most important intermediate system update ever released by Apple.
- the new Mac Pro will be immediately available after the Keynote, and the hardware specifications should be as follow:
* 8 Core Xeon Penryn for all (3.2GHz for the high-end model)
* new graphic cards should be available, among them the latest Quadro FX from NVidia
* Apple should offer Blu-ray burner as BTO

Apple should also rename DVD Studio Pro, as the January expected update should bring support for playing and burning BD media; the name could be Disk Studio Pro.

Regarding Penryn-based iMac or MacBook Pro, dates of availability remain unclear, if they are announced in January, they should not be immediately available, as the mobile Penryn CPUs should not be officially available priori January 7th.

Last but not least: the last Intel compiler bringing SSE4 support is also compatible with Itanium CPU, which are the high-end Intel server CPUs. According to our sources, Apple might be launching a series of Xserve "Ultra" powered by Itanium 2 in a near future.

http://www.hardmac.com/news/2007-12-05/#7523

Anyone?

Peace

Dec 5, 2007, 01:58 PM

That's pretty close.

chameleon

Dec 5, 2007, 02:16 PM

Sounds like one of the most reasonable theories we've heard so far. Nothing too outlandish, but all plausible.

8 Cores on all systems is interesting. I guess that means we won't see a "4 Core Discount Mac Pro" in the $2,000-ish price range as some had suspected.

darthraige

Dec 5, 2007, 02:25 PM

It looks like Apple might want to make a big deal with the new Penryn chips that will be in all of their products next year. What bugs me is that the normal consumer does not care about "chip names." I don't understand how people have been calling MWSF a "consumer" expo when everyone that attends is in the "pro" field. Most consumers don't even know about MWSF. lol I just want Apple to be the first to release the new Penryns, but I guess that's not gonna happen.

jnc

Dec 5, 2007, 02:27 PM

The current 8-core option on Mac Pros is such a hefty premium, including 8 core as standard is surely going to hike the price up quite a bit?

darthraige

Dec 5, 2007, 02:29 PM

plumbingandtech

Dec 5, 2007, 02:34 PM

Any thoughts on ram prices for Peryns?

I bought mac pro ram when it was new and $$$$.

But now mac pro ram is dirt cheap.

Have you heard anything about Peryn ram prices?

thanks.

darthraige

Dec 5, 2007, 02:37 PM

Any thoughts on ram prices for Peryns?

I bought mac pro ram when it was new and $$$$.

But now mac pro ram is dirt cheap.

Have you heard anything about Peryn ram prices?

thanks.

There were rumors floating around that it might require different ram for more money too. There was also another rumor that it will still take the current ram it now uses, but won't work at its fullest.

Brendon Bauer

Dec 5, 2007, 02:38 PM

That's pretty close.

I have this slight feeling that you know what's going to happen. If I remember correctly, you've stated your "opinion" before and it came out to be true. You must have sources :rolleyes:

plumbingandtech

Dec 5, 2007, 02:51 PM

There were rumors floating around that it might require different ram for more money too. There was also another rumor that it will still take the current ram it now uses, but won't work at its fullest.

Thank you. :)

G4DP

Dec 5, 2007, 03:01 PM

Well it'll probably still be DDR2, so depending on the FSB speeds of the chips it'll either be all DDR2 800MHZ or the current stuff.

Not long to wait now.

darthraige

Dec 5, 2007, 03:06 PM

Not long to wait now.

You're still using your G4, right? I just got this message in my disk utility yesterday...

This drive has reported a fatal hardware error to Disk Utility.

If the drive has not failed completely, back up as much data as you can and then replace it with a working drive.

So tempted to just get a MacPro now. lol I wanted a reason, and that might be it.

Pressure

Dec 5, 2007, 03:21 PM

The current 8-core option on Mac Pros is such a hefty premium, including 8 core as standard is surely going to hike the price up quite a bit?

I don't think so. Aren't the new Penryn 8-Cores the same price as the Woodcrest 4-Cores?

Indeed, the old Dual-Core Xeons (65nm Woodcrest) and Quad-core Xeons (65nm Clowertown) are priced similar to the new Quad-Core Xeons (45nm Harpertown).

Any thoughts on ram prices for Peryns?

I bought mac pro ram when it was new and $$$$.

But now mac pro ram is dirt cheap.

Have you heard anything about Peryn ram prices?

thanks.

The i5400 chipset (Seaburg) has support for both 667Mhz and 800Mhz Fully Buffered DDR2 DIMMs. The latter will give you more bandwidth

plumbingandtech

Dec 5, 2007, 03:36 PM

Mmmm more bandwidth....:)

Umbongo

Dec 5, 2007, 03:39 PM

Any thoughts on ram prices for Peryns?

I bought mac pro ram when it was new and $$$$.

But now mac pro ram is dirt cheap.

Have you heard anything about Peryn ram prices?

thanks.
800MHz FB-DIMMS will probably be around $100-$120 per GB (1 and 2 GB modules) for a while, prices will then come down some to the current 667MHz levels.

MacRumors

Dec 5, 2007, 04:13 PM

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Hardmac claims that according to their sources, Mac OS 10.5.2 and new Mac Pros will be released at Macworld 2008 (http://www.hardmac.com/news/2007-12-05/#7523). Among the claims:

- Apple is actively working on Leopard to benefit as much as possible from the recently released Intel Mac OS X compiler and libraries, including SSE4 support. Mac OS X 10.5.2 should be released for the keynote and fully takes advantages of the last Intel compiler and libraries. According to our sources, it should be the largest and most important intermediate system update ever released by Apple.
- the new Mac Pro will be immediately available after the Keynote, and the hardware specifications should be as follow:
* 8 Core Xeon Penryn for all (3.2GHz for the high-end model)
* new graphic cards should be available, among them the latest Quadro FX from NVidia
* Apple should offer Blu-ray burner as BTO

Mac OS X 10.5.2 may very well come, as Apple often has to update the OS to support new hardware. Even if a new Mac Pro does not arrive, other more reliable rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/12/04/apple-orders-13-3-led-backlit-screens-for-upcoming-laptop/) have pointed to an "ultra-portable" laptop being introduced at Macworld.

However, other aspects of the story lead to some doubt. Apple has typically not used Macworld to discuss its professional workstation or server line. In addition, claims that Apple will use Itanium 2 processors for an upcoming "Xserve Ultra" appears to be farfetched and remains uncorroborated from traditionally reliable rumor sources.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/12/05/mac-os-10-5-2-mac-pro-update-at-macworld/)

darthraige

Dec 5, 2007, 04:17 PM

Sooooooo far away, January 15th is. I can't wait no more. :confused:

mrbc19

Dec 5, 2007, 04:23 PM

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Even if a new Mac Pro does not arrive, other more reliable rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/12/04/apple-orders-13-3-led-backlit-screens-for-upcoming-laptop/) have pointed to an "ultra-portable" laptop being introduced at Macworld.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/12/05/mac-os-10-5-2-mac-pro-update-at-macworld/)

Even if a Mac Pro does not arrive? NO! It must! :eek:

If the Mac Pro does not come Jan. 15, will it hold some sort of a record for being the product that has gone the longest without an update?

darthraige

Dec 5, 2007, 04:24 PM

Apple has typically not used Macworld to discuss its professional workstation or server line.

I don't get it. How could Macworld be for consumers and not professionals? Almost all people attending the show are professionals. I just hope this MacPro comes out sooner than expected. Anyone know Steve Jobs' phone number? lol

MacsRgr8

Dec 5, 2007, 04:25 PM

Eh.. Page 2??

Wouldn't this rumor be about the most anticipated hardware update since August 2006?

But.... I am waiting for this baby!! :cool:

darthraige

Dec 5, 2007, 04:28 PM

Wouldn't this rumor be about the most anticipated hardware update since August 2006?:

I know, right? It's like it disappeared off the grid.

floam

Dec 5, 2007, 04:32 PM

MacsRgr8

Dec 5, 2007, 04:34 PM

Somehow it seems nobody believes that MWSF could be the stage for this *huge* update.

First Blu-Ray drives...
8 Cores over 3 GHz...
1600 MHz FSB...

Forget the "ultra thin" portable. MacBook LED updates.... yay.. :rolleyes:

Gimme this monster!!! Shake the Windows world with real life benchmark tests running Vista.

G4DP

Dec 5, 2007, 04:34 PM

Darth, resist the darkside you must. Easy, is the path to the darkside. Clear your mind. Focus your mind, your path has been chosen. 8 Core knight become you will.

I updated the drive in mine last year, I now have all three bays full. 360GB, what a massive amount of storage.

1st as bootable,
2nd for storage
3rd as my own time machine. Nothing wrong with doing it manually if you ask me.

I hope the old thing lasts, i'm going to keep it as an extra form of back up.

WHO GIVES A POO ABOUT A ULTRA PORTABLE!. YOU CAN'T ACTUALLY DO ANY SERIOUS WORK ON A SCREEN THAT'S 13", SO WHY THE HELL DO YOU WANT SOMETHING SMALLER. WHY IS IT TOO BIG? IS IT TOO HEAVY FOR YOU TO CARRY. WELL BE A MAN AND GROW SOME. GOD GAVE YOU MUSCLES FOR A REASON. SO GET OF YOUR LARD A$$'$ AND USE THEM.

Anger vented

OllyW

Dec 5, 2007, 04:34 PM

Wouldn't this rumor be about the most anticipated hardware update since August 2006?

According to this poll, not really (http://www.macworld.co.uk/polls/index.cfm?action=showresults&pid=313) :D

izzle22

Dec 5, 2007, 04:35 PM

Even if a Mac Pro does not arrive? NO! It must! :eek:

If the Mac Pro does not come Jan. 15, will it hold some sort of a record for being the product that has gone the longest without an update?

The eMac hasn't had an update in a loooong time either. ;):p

darthraige

Dec 5, 2007, 04:39 PM

Darth, resist the darkside you must. Easy, is the path to the darkside. Clear your mind. Focus your mind, your path has been chosen. 8 Core knight become you will.

I updated the drive in mine last year, I now have all three bays full. 360GB, what a massive amount of storage.

1st as bootable,
2nd for storage
3rd as my own time machine. Nothing wrong with doing it manually if you ask me.

I hope the old thing lasts, i'm going to keep it as an extra form of back up.

Hahaha, yea, I'm definitely gonna wait. It has to come on or before Jan. 15. If the G4 dies before then, which it will, I'll just suffer and use my MacBook for the time being. The thing is probably faster when it comes to editing too.

MacsRgr8

Dec 5, 2007, 04:40 PM

According to this poll, not really (http://www.macworld.co.uk/polls/index.cfm?action=showresults&pid=313) :D

Haha.. that's because it says: "Redesigned Mac Pro"

It should have said: "New and unbelievably fast Mac Pro"

olliebraves20

Dec 5, 2007, 04:41 PM

Sounds like one of the most reasonable theories we've heard so far. Nothing too outlandish, but all plausible.

I would have to agree....I'm also guessing there is going to some kind of update concerning the thousands of 13.3 LED's apple has been ordering.....

miketcool

Dec 5, 2007, 05:02 PM

The eMac hasn't had an update in a loooong time either. ;):p

Yeah, my Performa is DREADFULLY slow while trying to surf the web. At least my word processor is snappier more than ever!

psychofreak

Dec 5, 2007, 05:05 PM

The eMac hasn't had an update in a loooong time either. ;):p

It kinda did, but got a name change - there is a camera-less iMac specifically for education...

Rocketman

Dec 5, 2007, 05:15 PM

I have this slight feeling that you know what's going to happen. If I remember correctly, you've stated your "opinion" before and it came out to be true. You must have sources :rolleyes:

He didn't breach his NDA. :)

I have no NDA. 10.5.2 is the OS for newbies to buy a CPU with. 10.5.0 was a public beta as I have said for a year or so, turned out to be all too true.

10.5.1 was a bug fix of a beta, but 10.5.2 is barely ready for prime time. I would wait for 10.5.3 for grandma.

I for one am looking forward to the hardware announcements at Macworld, but expect to see a lot of OS and software announcements. If you have paid close attention to Apple announcements for the past couple of months, the sheer number of hardware, software, services, and retail projects going on, indicates most of their thousands of employees are themselves multi-tasking!

Rocketman

sblasl

Dec 5, 2007, 05:32 PM

We need 10.5.2 now. My Nikon D300 needs the update to be recognized by Aperture. Those with the Nikon D3 also need the update.

psychofreak

Dec 5, 2007, 05:35 PM

10.5.0 was a public beta as I have said for a year or so, turned out to be all too true.

Not for many people...for me on 3 Macs it was great, with Disk Utility being the only problem app...

dvince2

Dec 5, 2007, 05:52 PM

SthrnCmfrtr

Dec 5, 2007, 05:57 PM

I updated the drive in mine last year, I now have all three bays full. 360GB, what a massive amount of storage.

Jesus, on a workstation? I think I have more than that in iPods :) I'm not even a pro but a Photoshop project I was working on a couple weeks ago built up a 30-40GB scratch file very, very quickly and the image itself was over 4GB.

It's funny. I remember getting my first computer and never filling up its 400 MB hard drive. Today I started building a 8x500GB RAID-5 array and 3.5TB(er, 3.2TB... damn 10^9 vs. 2^30) actually seems a bit small to me.

minik

Dec 5, 2007, 06:04 PM

Sounds very good!

G4DP

Dec 5, 2007, 06:05 PM

I keep anything finished on CD or DVD. I have become very good at backing up. Haven't lost anything in what seems like an age.

Must be at least 4 hours.

twoodcc

Dec 5, 2007, 06:19 PM

well i hope it happens :apple:

RichP

Dec 5, 2007, 06:53 PM

It all sounds very reasonable.

The only way we would see a "discount" quad core machine is they release a machine with a single quad core chip (like some of the G5 setups) Its possible...

Stridder44

Dec 5, 2007, 07:55 PM

WHO GIVES A POO ABOUT A ULTRA PORTABLE!. YOU CAN'T ACTUALLY DO ANY SERIOUS WORK ON A SCREEN THAT'S 13", SO WHY THE HELL DO YOU WANT SOMETHING SMALLER. WHY IS IT TOO BIG? IS IT TOO HEAVY FOR YOU TO CARRY. WELL BE A MAN AND GROW SOME. GOD GAVE YOU MUSCLES FOR A REASON. SO GET OF YOUR LARD A$$'$ AND USE THEM.

Seriously! I can't understand the weird fetish some people have with a "sub-ultra think notebook". Like they seriously orgasm at the thought of a tablet. No optical drive? Less than 12" screen? And you want it to be "professional" too?? HA. What the crap do you intend to do with it? I mean is the 13" MacBook not small enough?? What's the point? It's not like you'd get a dedicated graphics card with it. If anything the specs would be lower than the MacBook's.

I get the feeling that it's these same people that get a hard at SSD and think a 64GB SSD would be "plenty". "Professional" and "64GB" should not be put in the same sentence.

Schtumple

Dec 5, 2007, 08:24 PM

longofest

Dec 5, 2007, 09:38 PM

Eh.. Page 2??

Wouldn't this rumor be about the most anticipated hardware update since August 2006?

But.... I am waiting for this baby!! :cool:

I know, right? It's like it disappeared off the grid.

It's Page2 because I don't have a lot of confidence in the accuracy of the report. But we're keeping tabs on any news of the Mac Pro, and we'll let you know accordingly.

maverick808

Dec 5, 2007, 09:50 PM

I've been thinking this too.
I hear people crying for a 'professional' sub-notebook. What kind of serious professional can be done on a 12" screen with no optical drive?

Optical drives are so 90s :)

MattInOz

Dec 5, 2007, 09:54 PM

So pretty much another, stating the bleeding obvious "rumor"

seriously though if apple doesn't release a update to the mac pro will there be any professional people left who will actually take apple seriously?!

I would have thought it would be released before MacWorld.
Kick start sales for the new year, Pro Machines can be launched anytime of year they don't really need an event.

ventro

Dec 5, 2007, 10:16 PM

Apple uses Macworld to announce game-changing products. iPhone, first intel mac, etc.

Nermal

Dec 5, 2007, 11:02 PM

Apple should also rename DVD Studio Pro, as the January expected update should bring support for playing and burning BD media; the name could be Disk Studio Pro.

Hopefully 10.5.2 will include an updated DVD Player with HD DVD playback support.

minik

Dec 5, 2007, 11:14 PM

Hopefully 10.5.2 will include an updated DVD Player with HD DVD playback support.

Disk Studio Pro just doesn't sound right. Not to mention, it should be disk, those are disc.

If Apple drops Blu-ray drive into its' product, there should be a playback software with the update.

kainjow

Dec 5, 2007, 11:14 PM

Seriously! I can't understand the weird fetish some people have with a "sub-ultra think notebook". Like they seriously orgasm at the thought of a tablet. No optical drive? Less than 12" screen? And you want it to be "professional" too?? HA. What the crap do you intend to do with it? I mean is the 13" MacBook not small enough?? What's the point? It's not like you'd get a dedicated graphics card with it. If anything the specs would be lower than the MacBook's.

I get the feeling that it's these same people that get a hard at SSD and think a 64GB SSD would be "plenty". "Professional" and "64GB" should not be put in the same sentence.

Well I'd consider myself a professional and I use a MacBook with only 60GB in use. I wouldn't be so quick to say that you need a bazillion gigabytes to be considered a professional. Plus smaller == more portable. I'd love to have a smaller MacBook that I could take more places with me and work on the go.

Bull. Apple doesn't use the Intel compiler. They use GCC. They haven't stopped using GCC. They need to build PowerPC binaries too, and you can make a universal mach-o image out of a ICC-built x86_64 binary and GCC-built PPC one. No way they've stopped using XCode or change Xcode up this much post-release, either. GCC can support SSE4 just fine on its own.

I'm lost. What does Xcode have to do with this? Xcode is just the IDE. GCC is the actual compiler Xcode uses. They could easily swap out GCC for the Intel compiler. Now I don't know really anything about the Intel compiler's capabilities but I'd think they could build the kernel with it and get some improvements out of the Intel machines.

MacCoaster

Dec 5, 2007, 11:17 PM

Bull. Apple doesn't use the Intel compiler. They use GCC. They haven't stopped using GCC. They need to build PowerPC binaries too, and you can make a universal mach-o image out of a ICC-built x86_64 binary and GCC-built PPC one. No way they've stopped using XCode or change Xcode up this much post-release, either. GCC can support SSE4 just fine on its own.
Xcode supports multiple compiler backends. You can install Intel compilers and have Xcode use it. Xcode is not a compiler, it's an IDE. The advantage of Intel compilers are obvious, they produce faster binaries than GCC.

GCC 4.3 supports SSE4. It is not officially out as stable, but that didn't stop Apple from releasing GCC 4.0 for Tiger before GCC 4.0 was officially out as stable.

Analog Kid

Dec 5, 2007, 11:21 PM

Hopefully the insanity of using Itanic in Xserve means they're not going BluRay either... Our Mac is our movie player and we've been stuck without HD support so far, but it's becoming pretty clear to me that BluRay isn't going to go the distance...

Michael73

Dec 5, 2007, 11:24 PM

Seriously, my apps don't do a great job of utilizing the 4 cores in my current MP so getting the latest 8 core version does little to get me excited.

What I am waiting for is a new lineup of video card options for the MP. Current pricing is outrageous given the technology is 2 years old. I'm looking for a really solid mid-range card. None of this 7300GT crap and even my budget can't stretch for a Quadro, just something right in the middle at a decent price point.

Blu-ray drives would be nice, but let's face it the price of the media is insane! I love the idea of 50GB on a DL blu-ray disc but the other day when I saw a 5 pack for $164 I nearly fell out of my seat. All this and not to mention that HD DVD is winning the hardware war. I mean damn, did you see that Wally World had limited quantities of HD DVD players on sale for $99! Also, from what I can see a lot of studios have moved away from blu-ray exclusive releases. Even the ones that do do blu-ray only releases in the US often release the same movie in HD format overseas.

And on the subject of the lag time between hardware updates...HELLO, can we see some new Cinema Displays?!?!? C'mon Apple - you pull the iSights ages ago, don't replace them with diddly and you haven't built them into your monitors.

Silverhawk

Dec 5, 2007, 11:27 PM

This def has some substance behind and sounds plausible :eek:

Just make sure they at least have an 8800GTS G92 version and/or ATI 3870

SirROM

Dec 5, 2007, 11:57 PM

bretm

Dec 5, 2007, 11:58 PM

minik

Dec 6, 2007, 12:12 AM

Am I the only one doesn't want to see an iSight on a Cinema display? I thought it would nice, but I take it back.

A 25GB BD-R is under $20, not that bad actually (for me). Isn't Apple one of the members in Blu-ray Disc Association? Either they gonna drop a dual-format drive (e.g. LG model) or Steve cannot demo any Disney HD movie on stage.

joehack

Dec 6, 2007, 12:32 AM

The use of Itaniums sounds very doubtful to me. Why should Apple maintain a 4th MacOSX codebase?

Jochen

Nermal

Dec 6, 2007, 12:49 AM

A 25GB BD-R is under $20, not that bad actually (for me).

But with Sony in charge of it, I expect it to stay at a premium over the "standardised" formats.

Yes, Apple is a member of the HD DVD group and the BR Association and has stated in the past that it will back both formats.

seashellz2

Dec 6, 2007, 01:12 AM

Hopefully, in a way, they will be RE-RELEASING 10.5

ChrisA

Dec 6, 2007, 01:43 AM

I doubt the part about the Itanium. Itanium is not binary compatible with the Pentium and "core" processors. Apple would have to make their "universal" binaries even more "universal". I can't see why the Xserve would need that much CPU power a quad-core processor like what's in the Mac Pro would be enough

I can see Apple moving to the Intel compiler. But not doing it in two months. At work I moved my code from gcc to Sun's "Studio 11" compiler and I'm having to fix quite a few little nit-picks. Mac OS X is huge, they will run into thousands of little things and each will have to be identified, assiged to some engineer fixed, tested and written up and put back into configuration management. Basically is is just money work but lots of it. And why? Is there much to be gained? Gcc is quite good.

uNext

Dec 6, 2007, 02:12 AM

Seriously! I can't understand the weird fetish some people have with a "sub-ultra think notebook". Like they seriously orgasm at the thought of a tablet. No optical drive? Less than 12" screen? And you want it to be "professional" too?? HA. What the crap do you intend to do with it? I mean is the 13" MacBook not small enough?? What's the point? It's not like you'd get a dedicated graphics card with it. If anything the specs would be lower than the MacBook's.

I get the feeling that it's these same people that get a hard at SSD and think a 64GB SSD would be "plenty". "Professional" and "64GB" should not be put in the same sentence.

people that want the "Ultra portable, Extremely mobile mac" also want it to have 4 cores and will complain about how hot it gets.

I so agree with you 64gb on a "pro" laptop?
get serious i been editing hd video and 64gb will not cut it for hd or raw files they quickly add up.

Anybody else cliaming otherwise have yet to experience 1 minute=1gb hd video and 20-32mb raw files and we all know how quick photos pile up specially when snapping away and sorting through hundreds of shots to remove the un-needed ones.

I CAN CARE LESS ABOUT A PORTABLE i know many people want the cool wow small package mac factor...but teh more screen real estate the better for me.
I cant imagine doing some editing on a 1024x768 or 1280x768 resolutions.

i know i know there will be some professionals that will say "WELL I DO IT AND IM JUST FINE" but not me and im sure just like there are some that will disagree will agree with what i just said.

nospamboz

Dec 6, 2007, 02:28 AM

10.5.2 will come out before Christmas, just like 10.1.2 and 10.3.2.

I have spoken (well, typed).

Darkroom

Dec 6, 2007, 02:46 AM

It's Page2 because I don't have a lot of confidence in the accuracy of the report. But we're keeping tabs on any news of the Mac Pro, and we'll let you know accordingly.

even if you do not have confidence that a Mac Pro will be released in January, it seems that perhaps 10.5.2 is likely... i think this should be moved to Page 1...

floam

Dec 6, 2007, 03:08 AM

Xcode supports multiple compiler backends. You can install Intel compilers and have Xcode use it. Xcode is not a compiler, it's an IDE. The advantage of Intel compilers are obvious, they produce faster binaries than GCC.

GCC 4.3 supports SSE4. It is not officially out as stable, but that didn't stop Apple from releasing GCC 4.0 for Tiger before GCC 4.0 was officially out as stable.

I was quite aware that XCode is just an IDE, but I was unaware that Apple supports using anything other than GCC with it.

arn

Dec 6, 2007, 03:17 AM

Mechcozmo

Dec 6, 2007, 03:33 AM

<snip>WHY IS IT TOO BIG? IS IT TOO HEAVY FOR YOU TO CARRY. WELL BE A MAN AND GROW SOME. GOD GAVE YOU MUSCLES FOR A REASON. SO GET OF YOUR LARD A$$'$ AND USE THEM.

Maybe it is because we are using our muscles that we want something tiny and light?

zedsdead

Dec 6, 2007, 04:43 AM

I get the feeling the MP will be updated with new cinema displays at Macworld...

Then there will be a new App for the iPhone/Touch.

Then I am really hoping for a major software update to the Apple TV...possibly iTunes '08 as well.

As far as the HD DVD / Blu-Ray war, neither side is winning...Apple clearly hates both and would prefer to have downloads and internet content. However, Apple has stated they are neutral in the war, so do not expect a sole Blu-Ray burner/player. They already have the software support to author HD DVD's in DVD Studio Pro, so it is a simple solution to add an HD DVD burner...Blu-Ray requires a software rewrite...I am guessing that both will be added, although I am not expecting to see it until NAB in April as that is the target audience.

Rank Xerox

Dec 6, 2007, 07:29 AM

However, other aspects of the story lead to some doubt. Apple has typically not used Macworld to discuss its professional workstation or server line. In addition, claims that Apple will use Itanium 2 processors for an upcoming "Xserve Ultra" appears to be farfetched and remains uncorroborated from traditionally reliable rumor sources.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/12/05/mac-os-10-5-2-mac-pro-update-at-macworld/)

When I read the original article doesn't it say anything about a Xserver Ultra to be presented during the MacWorld. What it say is this: "According to our sources, Apple might be launching a series of Xserve "Ultra" powered by Itanium 2 in a near future."

That is something rahter plausible, isn't it.

rpp3po

Dec 6, 2007, 08:46 AM

volvoben

Dec 6, 2007, 09:48 AM

It all sounds very reasonable.

The only way we would see a "discount" quad core machine is they release a machine with a single quad core chip (like some of the G5 setups) Its possible...

Agreed, however I'm rather convinced that the next quad-core machine Apple will produce will be next fall when Penryn QC chips are released and Apple puts them in the imac/mbp. Depending on their heat production though it may just be a replacement for the core2extreme 2.8 option in current imacs...and i wouldn't put that machine in the "discount" category.

0racle

Dec 6, 2007, 10:08 AM

I just hope that a 10.5.2 update would fix problems with integrating into the AD.

Roy

Dec 6, 2007, 10:44 AM

If anyone's keeping track...

Mac Pro/PowerMacs have never been released at a Macworld since as far back as 2002.

But all hope's not lost.... MacBook Pros were released at MWSF 2006. Xserve G5 at MWSF 2004.

http://guides.macrumors.com/Macworld_San_Francisco

arn

If you go back one more year to 2001, then the G4 Digital Audio was introduced in Jan. 2001. I think I ordered mine on MLK,jr day in 2001.

http://www.stefanoparis.com/apple/macworld2001/macworld2001.html

V.K.

Dec 6, 2007, 10:54 AM

If the rumor about 10.5.2 at macworld is true it means

a) 10.5.2 must have some really new features. Just imagine Steve Jobs announcing during his keynote address an OS X update fixing lots of bugs and improving stability. That would be a real highlight of the speech, wouldn't it?

b) If like me you've been wanting an update fixing lots of bugs and improving stability you'll have to wait for 10.5.3 or even 10.5.4 as an update of the kind mentioned in this rumor will surely not concentrate on those (and, in fact, might accomplish the opposite).

On Mac pro news.
I've been desperate for a new mac Pro but I'll believe in it only when I see it. Another article on the same website posted today claims that Intel has just discovered a bug in penryns which might push new mac pros back a month or more.

darthraige

Dec 6, 2007, 11:17 AM

On Mac pro news. I've been desperate for a new mac Pro but I'll believe in it only when I see it. Another article on the same website posted today claims that Intel has just discovered a bug in penryns which might push new mac pros back a month or more.

You've left out the most important line though...

Currently, it remains unclear if Xeon Penryn will also be affected or only the Quad Core Extreme desktop-dedicated CPU.

We just don't know which ones yet. Hopefully we will find out by next week, otherwise I'm ordering a MacPro now.

G4DP

Dec 6, 2007, 11:20 AM

darthraige

Dec 6, 2007, 12:24 PM

If there is a bug in the Penryn chips, that pushes the MAc Pro update back a month or so, many people will not only be peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee'd off, but will then start to think about waiting for Nehalem.

You know how bad I am in need of a MacPro. I will get the Penryn MacPro if it's available on or before January 15th. I can not wait any longer. If a report does come out saying the MacPros are delayed, I buy Woodcrest, unless Apple apologizes for this long MacPro wait and drops the price on the 8-Core Clovertown this month. Hopefully that's what will happen to clear out stock. ;)

richi3

Dec 6, 2007, 12:31 PM

All this and not to mention that HD DVD is winning the hardware war. I mean damn, did you see that Wally World had limited quantities of HD DVD players on sale for $99! Also, from what I can see a lot of studios have moved away from blu-ray exclusive releases. Even the ones that do do blu-ray only releases in the US often release the same movie in HD format overseas.

You really need to check some facts and not make assumptions:
On the high-def front, however, software sales for the Blu-ray Disc format dominated those of HD-DVD on the biggest shopping day of the year. According to Nielsen VideoScan First Alert numbers, for the week of 11/19 to 11/25 (Monday to Sunday), Blu-ray held a commanding 72.6% share of high-def software sales compared to HD-DVD's 27.4% That's very nearly a 3 to 1 margin, and it comes in spite of a strong surge in HD-DVD player sales in the wake of Toshiba's recent discounting.

According to Black Friday numbers, when adding in 360 addon HD drives for HD-DVD and PS3 for Blu-ray, you have 750,000 HD DVD players sold and 2.2 million BD players.

Another edit for up-to-date numbers: Meanwhile, the Blu-ray Disc Association is now reporting that their hardware numbers have passed the 2.7 million mark in North America (through 11/24), in the wake of strong Black Friday sales.

I'm not saying BD has won yet, either but to claim HD has won is very silly (also BD is outselling HD in Europe over 3:1 currently).

Edit: Also, Apple is on the BD group so when they start adding in BD drives, that'll help out BD, too. Of course, MS is pushing HD.

V.K.

Dec 6, 2007, 12:36 PM

If a report does come out saying the MacPros are delayed, I buy Woodcrest, unless Apple apologizes for this long MacPro wait and drops the price on the 8-Core Clovertown this month. Hopefully that's what will happen to clear out stock. ;)

Have they EVER done that before?
The fact that they haven't once lowered the price on the clearly outdated current offering doesn't make me very optimistic...

richi3

Dec 6, 2007, 12:37 PM

Apple clearly hates both and would prefer to have downloads and internet content.

Where do you get this?

Blu-ray Disc has gained a large amount of support in the corporate world, with companies such as Apple, Dell, and Panasonic backing it.

Apple (and Disney) are big supporters of Blu-ray and Apple, afaik, is on the Blu-ray board of directors: http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/03/10/bluray/index.php

richi3

Dec 6, 2007, 12:38 PM

Have they EVER done that before?
The fact that they haven't once lowered the price on the clearly outdated current offering doesn't make me very optimistic...

I think you have the wrong name in the quote there? :)

BWhaler

Dec 6, 2007, 12:43 PM

Forget the hardware.

If this is true, which I doubt, but if it is, the best news is the huge upgrade to Leopard.

It's not the bugs, although there are truck loads of them which need fixing.

It's the poor design. Spaces just doesn't work in an Apple way.

My hope is Apple leadership is using Leopard now full time and they see the problems with it.

I hope the .2 release is the Leopard we should have seen at launch. It can still have bugs, but fix the big nasty ones and make things like Spaces usable.

KiraDouji

Dec 6, 2007, 01:19 PM

It's the poor design. Spaces just doesn't work in an Apple way.

... Explain? :confused:

- Kira

V.K.

Dec 6, 2007, 02:02 PM

... Explain? :confused:

- Kira

I think he probably means this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=M57JGvWOlCg

ilogic

Dec 6, 2007, 02:10 PM

So does it mean we're all going blu-ray??

:confused:

richi3

Dec 6, 2007, 02:38 PM

So does it mean we're all going blu-ray??

:confused:

Hopefully :D

zedsdead

Dec 6, 2007, 02:56 PM

Where do you get this?

Apple (and Disney) are big supporters of Blu-ray and Apple, afaik, is on the Blu-ray board of directors: http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/03/10/bluray/index.php

If you watched the Keynote for the iMac/iLife '08 release, it was clear that Jobs was trying to diminish the need for DVD. Yes Apple in on the Blu-Ray board, but they also support HD DVD (which already exists in DVD Studio Pro)...Jobs was clearly pushing his Pseudo HD "Large" (960x540) resolution big time. The format war is not something Apple wants to get involved with or they would have jumped in already. Also, iTunes and the Apple TV also support Apple moving towards HD Downloads in the future. Apple has a vested interested in downloading content vs. DVD's.

Of course, when it comes to dvd authoring, the Mac Pro's market is indie filmmakers and the like, so it is important to many of them...I do expect a Blu-Ray option/burner soon, but Apple may do the smart thing and support both.

poundsmack

Dec 6, 2007, 03:20 PM

I would like to clear up a few things with regaurds to compilers and Xcode and what not. But instead of typing it all out I will just do this

http://www.intel.com/cd/software/products/asmo-na/eng/compilers/266992.htm

and for what its worth it is almost 100% certain the the Intel version of OSX will be compiled frmo here on out with Intels official compiler. as a software developer i can say full well that the difference in spead from my compiled apps from Intel's to the GCC is a big preformance gain using the newly released C++ comiler from Intel.

richi3

Dec 6, 2007, 04:28 PM

richi3

Dec 6, 2007, 04:30 PM

Of course, when it comes to dvd authoring, the Mac Pro's market is indie filmmakers and the like, so it is important to many of them...I do expect a Blu-Ray option/burner soon, but Apple may do the smart thing and support both.

I see what you're saying. I just think 'hate' is too strong of a word especially when they're sitting on one of the format's board. I think they're backing BD but from their point of view they want downloading to be more in the forefront in the long run.

Which might explain BD over HD in their eyes: BD has a stronger foothold for use as a general purpose storage medium for computers.

MacCoaster

Dec 6, 2007, 05:10 PM

but Mac fanboy sites. The technical community isn't excited (neither disappointed) about SSE4. Most of the new instructions are rather convenience functions, making the life of a hand writing machine programmer somewhat easier. Don't dump your SSE3 machines, yet. From the SSE perspective alone there won't be much difference.
Depends on whom you're ask. There's a new radix-16 divider, so that speeds up a lot of things because a lot of things depend on the divider. That's nice for performance.

Also compiler writers will be happy to write more efficient code for assembling.

One more, the shuffle operation is much faster. It used to take a few cycles, but it's now a single cycle afaik.

Anyone's free to correct me if I'm mistaken.

MacCoaster

Dec 6, 2007, 05:13 PM

and for what its worth it is almost 100% certain the the Intel version of OSX will be compiled frmo here on out with Intels official compiler.
For many things in Mac OS X that will work, but they do not have an objective-C compiler, so a large portion of Mac OS X won't see this benefit. I wonder if they're working on an objective-C compiler for Apple.

Anonymous Freak

Dec 6, 2007, 06:32 PM

When I read the original article doesn't it say anything about a Xserver Ultra to be presented during the MacWorld. What it say is this: "According to our sources, Apple might be launching a series of Xserve "Ultra" powered by Itanium 2 in a near future."

That is something rahter plausible, isn't it.

No, it's not plausible. "Possible", yes. "Plausible", no. If Apple had gone with Itanium instead of Core Duo on the original Intel switch, maybe. But Itanium is a completely different instruction set than Core Duo/Core 2 Duo/Xeon. (And Intel has never even made an attempt to make Itanium-family chips low enough power for mobile computers. The "lowest end" they ever even attempted to market it was for high-end workstations. They stopped marketing it as a workstation chip a few years ago, now it is solely a server chip.)

The chips used in everyday PCs, and now in Macs, are "Intel x86" instruction set computers (Intel calls it "IA32".) The latest ones support what is usually called "x86-64", (called "EM64T" or "Intel64" by Intel, and "AMD64" by AMD,) which are just a 64-bit extension to the old x86 instruction set architecture. x86-64 chips are 100% compatible with 32-bit x86. They have to be, since at their core, they are still x86. The actual instruction set is called a "CISC" instruction set, for the way the instruction set itself work; although the actual processors are, deep down, mostly "vaguely RISC", and have been for over a decade, doing internal conversion from the x86 instruction set to their own native "micro-ops". These "native" micro-ops are *NOT* available to programmers, because they can change wildly from one processor generation to the next, based on what Intel learns about how to improve performance.

Itanium on the other hand, is a completely different instruction set. Not at all compatible with x86. It uses the "IA64" instruction set, which is a "VLIW" instruction set. It is so completely different, that when the very first Itanium was released, Intel embedded what was essentially a small Pentium Pro processor in it, for compatibility with x86. It turns out that software emulation (like the old SoftPC or Virtual PC for PowerPC-to-x86; or PearPC or Rosetta for x86-to-PowerPC,) can emulate the x86 instruction set so much better than the little embedded x86 chip, that Intel removed it from the Itanium 2.

This means that Apple would have to develop *ANOTHER* Rosetta-like software to allow an Itanium-based Mac to run Intel-Mac software; and yet another emulator to allow an Itanium-based Mac to run PowerPC software! This is in addition to the raw challenge of compiling OS X for Itanium; which would mark a FOURTH architecture: PowerPC, Intel x86, and ARM (iPhone/iPod touch.) Well, at least they don't have to support 680x0 any more...

Braz0s

Dec 6, 2007, 08:25 PM

I hope they use the new Ati/AMD 38xx class of video cards as an option in the new Mac Pros. They've gotten great reviews in the pc world.

kbmb

Dec 7, 2007, 12:01 PM

I think he probably means this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=M57JGvWOlCg

That video is awesome. Any idea what build that was from? That IS the way Stacks should work.

C'mon Apple....you can do it.....fix stacks.

-Kevin

kbmb

Dec 7, 2007, 12:05 PM

If there is a bug in the Penryn chips, that pushes the MAc Pro update back a month or so, many people will not only be peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee'd off, but will then start to think about waiting for Nehalem.

So say the bug pushes the launch back a month, that's mid feb before they come out. Nehalem comes out end of October or the beginning of November.
A third through it's product cylce before being usable.

I thought this sort of thing was the exact reason that Apple switched to Intel in the first place.

Interesting to see if there really is a bug in the Xeon Penryns. I think a Penryn Mac Pro update would be cool...however, I'm really looking towards later in 2008 with Nehalem.

Nehalem sounds like a huge step in the right direction:

From Hardmac.com (http://www.hardmac.com/news/2007-12-06/#7525)

Intel Penryn CPUs are not available yet, that information about the future CPU generation is already spreading on the web. The Nehalem will be engraved at 45nm and should be available during H2 2008. It will be true native Quad Core CPUs and not dual Dual Core CPU as today for Xeon Penryn. It will also be the first Intel CPU to integrate the memory controller into the chips to boost performance and even further increase the cache size.

-Kevin

guzhogi

Dec 7, 2007, 03:40 PM

I really hope Apple updates the Mac Pro. It hasn't been updated at all since it was first announced (except for a hardware RAID option). The xServe & xServe RAID really need to be updated, too. I'd really like to see the RAID be upgraded to SATA and/or SAS. Practically no hard drive comes in parallel ATA now. Seems like everyone is on SATA.

Hopefully, 2008 will bring in new enclosures for everything, too. Everything's in roughly the same enclosure as the PowerPC Mac it replaced. I know, the Mac Pro has 2 optical bays compared to 1 on the Power Mac G5, the iMac is Aluminum now and the MacBook has a chiclet keyboard. But still pretty much the same (on the outside at lest).

ek76

Dec 7, 2007, 04:13 PM

let it be true about a new mac pro. I'm currently on a G4 and need to ugrade by 12/19 to meet a new client's demands. I'm thinking about renting a mac pro for a month for $850 because I don't want to feel like a sucker when a new Mac Pro comes out on 1/15. Am I throwing money away? Is it too much of a gamble?? I'm so stressed out this!

paulrbrown7

Dec 7, 2007, 04:45 PM

Setmose

Dec 9, 2007, 09:07 AM

It's mostly for people who give presentations as a large part of their business routine. Execs these days like to have a notebook open in front of them as they sit around a large table to monitor their email. Makes 'em look like a television news anchor. :-)

I hope there will be some extra innovation worth waiting for in this long delayed update of Mac Pro. There have been some rumors about built-in native Vista capability.

Hot video cards are a must. Big RAM and disk also.

It would be nice to see an upgrade to this case design.

At least this way we get to watch the drama unfold with various blogs and/or video streams from MWSF!

knobsturner

Dec 10, 2007, 10:32 AM

Apple's Mac Pro line as it sits right now is a 'me - too' computer. The current motherboard design of all PCs and Mac Pros is getting very old.

One thing that might happen:

Putting the graphics card on a pci slot is silly.
----------------------------------------------------

If the graphics chip is socketed on the motherboard, then the graphics bus bottleneck goes away, and all graphics cards have access to all of the RAM on the machine. Running the latest 64 bit 3D game? The graphics card can use 10 Gigs of RAM. With PCI, there is the concept of '16x' bus speed, etc. By putting the graphics chip on the motherboard, you get 'infinite x' - there is no separate bus. With proper dirvers, and a faster bus, you get it all. This is not 'integrated graphics'.

Since AMD has ATI, and Intel's in house graphics never seem to work out that well, it would make sense for NVidia, Apple and Intel to work on a new PC standard - one that would require new graphics drivers, etc. Apple, with its limited number of hardware configurations could make this work.

Also, graphics chips can use a lot of power, and having a huge 70+ watt _card_ sitting on a 20 year old bus just does not make sense.

Silicon Graphics once had a machine designed like this.

Also, see this: It seems that NVidia has a new 'Motherboard GPU' that called MCP79 (or MCP7A-U?)that also supports adding in another pci graphics card that works with Hybrid SLI. http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=42279&page=1

So maybe it will be a NVidia MCP79 on Apple's new Mac Pros? That gives people the option of another graphics card if they just can't get enough.

--

Asar

Dec 10, 2007, 10:43 AM

sounds good, cant wait for macworld

henjin

Dec 10, 2007, 11:37 AM

Intel has been on a roll, recently updating by increments that make life a lot easier for Dell and HP but Apple has decided to mostly do nothing. I bought an HP Blackbird 002... yes it's a gaming rig. It sports two Nvidia 8800 Ultra graphics cards in SLi format, with a third part software nHancer you can get 1.5GB of GPU power to work for QT, After Effects and Premiere and more. The motherboard is capable of taking the new Penrynn ... indeed the whole unit owes a lot to Apple, clean inside, thumb/push install hard drives and cards. Special liquid cooler that does not remotely leak or require attention.
I'm trying to point out that Apple is silly to think that all its MacPro customers will wait. I wanted a gaming rig that's true but the iMac does not fit that and I also wanted four cores to use when rendering video...
Leopard is so close to Vista Ultimate that it's no problem to switch. Even if Vista ultimate is a rip off of OSX it's not bad and in some places even better. For example what it can do with 3.5GB of usable RAM puts to shame OSX's ram hogishness.

I will buy another MacPro but instead of having 2, I will only buy one.

The HP Blackbird 002 is the highest ranked/graded desktop on CNET and some PC mags. It's great to use for work and play. Apple should not dismiss gaming. The resources needed for gaming can be used for high end video and DVD production. I can slide an extra Blue Ray burner in... there's no need for me to wait for HP as the whole point of a blackbird is to offer off the shelf upgrades which means I can get what I want, when I want it.

Apple is really no longer interested in computers unless they offer a lifestyle image. The MacPro should offer easy access to CPU so that we can upgrade when we have the money. At the moment it's not easy.. or as easy as slotting the RAM in.

I love Apple design. However the HP blackbird 002 really does make heads turn. Really is thinking different and I get brownie points for having one on my desk. Apple must wake up.

Just reading these boards is proof enough that there is a lot of pent up demand. Just we're uncool, we want to do more than sit in Starbucks...

By the way HP workstations lated to deliver in Jan are some mean beasts..

The more OSX looks like Vista looking like OSX the easier it is to switch back and forth.

If I were a Mac Freak I'd be sending petitions.. I know Apple does not care and that is dangerous for the platform.

jasper fink

Dec 10, 2007, 11:37 AM

I am starting a fund to get the new Mac Pro launched!.
Here's how it works.
You will donate money to me now. And I will go out and buy the Mac Pro Next Monday!
By me Buying the Mac Pro Monday, it is sure to launch the new model by Friday.
It has always happened this way and I don't see any change in my apple luck.
So what say!
Lets get that new Mac Pro Model out on the sales floor next week shall we?

Donate generously and with the knowledge you are helping to advance our tech society and help me maintain a modicum of faith in my techie friends.

darthraige

Dec 10, 2007, 11:42 AM

By me Buying the Mac Pro Monday, it is sure to launch the new model by Friday. It has always happened this way and I don't see any change in my apple luck.

Yea, same here, I feel like I'm holding up the launch too. Every time I buy, the next day or a week later the newer one comes out. Happens all the time. So maybe the MacPro will never come as long as I don't buy. haha.

Roy

Dec 10, 2007, 12:04 PM

Yea, same here, I feel like I'm holding up the launch too. Every time I buy, the next day or a week later the newer one comes out. Happens all the time. So maybe the MacPro will never come as long as I don't buy. haha.

But once you do buy, then the rest of us will be getting a heck of an upgraded new Mac Pro. Go ahead and buy. I don't won't to do the same thing again, just like you did.

JFreak

Dec 10, 2007, 12:11 PM

Intel has been on a roll, recently updating by increments that make life a lot easier for Dell and HP but Apple has decided to mostly do nothing.

Apple does what it has always done: upgrades its hardware in such a way people can predict what is coming and when. Apple has upgraded its pro workstations "once a year" for longer than I can remember, and it's great. People can expect that the top-of-the-line workstation they buy just after the release will be "current" for 12ish months. What's wrong with that picture?

And with Apple it's not so necessary to have the latest and greatest all the time. OSX won't slow you down like Windows so you're more than happy with your Apple workstation for at least 3-5 years, most people for much longer times.

darthraige

Dec 10, 2007, 12:19 PM

But once you do buy, then the rest of us will be getting a heck of an upgraded new Mac Pro. Go ahead and buy. I don't won't to do the same thing again, just like you did.

There's no way I'm buying now. I waited for Leopard in the Spring to buy a MacPro. Then waited for Leopard in October to buy a MacPro. MacPro due for an upgrade around Leopard. We are now way too close to the upgrade. MacPro isn't worth the price right now. Gonna wait until 1/15.

JFreak

Dec 10, 2007, 12:27 PM

MacPro isn't worth the money for me.

So, why would you be planning to buy one in the first place? Why even wait for something that is not worth the money for you? I don't get it. I buy whatever I need whenever I must and by following that guideline everything is always worth it.

darthraige

Dec 10, 2007, 12:35 PM

So, why would you be planning to buy one in the first place? Why even wait for something that is not worth the money for you? I don't get it. I buy whatever I need whenever I must and by following that guideline everything is always worth it.

I worded that wrong... MacPro isn't worth the price right now. A "4-Core Woodcrest" is pretty much the same price as an "8-Core Harpertown" when available. I will definitely be buying a MacPro. I'm a video editor / graphic designer and in the need of a new computer. Just don't want to get an old MacPro with a really out dated graphics card.

Roy

Dec 10, 2007, 03:25 PM

I worded that wrong... MacPro isn't worth the price right now. A "4-Core Woodcrest" is pretty much the same price as an "8-Core Harpertown" when available. I will definitely be buying a MacPro. I'm a video editor / graphic designer and in the need of a new computer. Just don't want to get an old MacPro with a really out dated graphics card.

From what I hear on Mac forums, you might be getting a new Mac Pro with an outdated graphics card!:D

darthraige

Dec 10, 2007, 03:37 PM

From what I hear on Mac forums, you might be getting a new Mac Pro with an outdated graphics card!:D

As long as it's 8-Cores Penryn, I won't care. :D

G4DP

Dec 10, 2007, 03:58 PM

Well as you two are holding the rest of us up, will one of you buy the damn thing!

Roy

Dec 10, 2007, 04:09 PM

Well as you two are holding the rest of us up, will one of you buy the damn thing!

Just like an old western shootout! The difference is the first one to "Pull The Trigger*" loses!:D

*Multimedia's favorite expression.

V.K.

Dec 10, 2007, 04:50 PM

From what I hear on Mac forums, you might be getting a new Mac Pro with an outdated graphics card!:D
What do you mean?! I can't imagine them NOT upgrading the video card offering when the new Mac Pro comes out.

Cave Man

Dec 10, 2007, 05:17 PM

I sure hope the next update fixes AEBSn disk sharing. It's really frustrating how it dies sporadically.

Cave Man

Dec 10, 2007, 05:18 PM

Oh, and also Time Machine. It sure is clunky.

Roy

Dec 10, 2007, 06:00 PM

What do you mean?! I can't imagine them NOT upgrading the video card offering when the new Mac Pro comes out.

Changing video cards could be considered an upgrade, but I said perhaps a new Mac Pro but with an outdated video cards. You don't expect Apple to give you the latest and greatest video card? Do you? A years old card would be considered an upgrade.

V.K.

Dec 10, 2007, 06:46 PM

Changing video cards could be considered an upgrade, but I said perhaps a new Mac Pro but with an outdated video cards. You don't expect Apple to give you the latest and greatest video card? Do you? A years old card would be considered an upgrade.

Oh, I see what you mean. I agree with that.
I certainly know better than to expect a top level video card from Apple. However, a reasonably priced upper midrange card would be a definite improvement on what we they have now. Something like GeForce 8800 GT maybe?

Mac_Max

Dec 10, 2007, 11:19 PM

Apple's Mac Pro line as it sits right now is a 'me - too' computer. The current motherboard design of all PCs and Mac Pros is getting very old.

It may be getting "old" but it's still top notch. Thats just how the market goes. Also it's going to be very "me too" as long as Apple is an Intel customer since Intel doesn't play favorites and doesn't make "special" items for their customers unless it's something easy to do, like a low end part with a higher multiplier (compensate for a low fsb) to be used in leftover laptops, a la the 400MHz FSB Core Duos and Core Solos used by Dell.

One thing that might happen:

Putting the graphics card on a pci slot is silly.
----------------------------------------------------

If the graphics chip is socketed on the motherboard, then the graphics bus bottleneck goes away, and all graphics cards have access to all of the RAM on the machine. Running the latest 64 bit 3D game? The graphics card can use 10 Gigs of RAM. With PCI, there is the concept of '16x' bus speed, etc. By putting the graphics chip on the motherboard, you get 'infinite x' - there is no separate bus. With proper dirvers, and a faster bus, you get it all. This is not 'integrated graphics'.

Thats not how it works. The "concept of '16x' bus speed" isn't a concept. That just means that the card uses 16 PCI Express lanes. Thats what the GPU itself is designed to interface with. You can't just throw a GPU into a socket and say "Go". ATI and NVdia would have to redesign their products to work with Intel's bus interface. Also GPUs have access to the memory on board. Thats where textures go after the on board memory is used up. The GPU doesn't care what the addressing mode of the software is since it is unto itself. The only place where 64bit might make a difference is if the video card needs to put textures into main system memory (hypermemory, etc). This is very very slow, and it's not ideal to share memory in the first place since you loose available memory for the rest of the system.

There isn't such a thing as "infinite X" either. The speed would still be limited by the FSB speed (since thats what a socketed GPU would be connected to). On that note, you'd also end up throwing out a whole batch of GPUs every time you change FSB speeds dramatically. An 800MHz FSB GPU may work on a 1066MHz FSB, but there's no way it's going to work on the new 1600 and unlikely to work with the present 1333MHz FSB. This is why new chipsets have to be designed to work with higher FSB speeds. Only rare exceptions (like the 945 chipset which started as a 667/800MHz FSB speed chip but can run 1333MHz FSB with out of spec PCIe) can do something this drastic.

This is why PCI, AGP, PCIe, etc is used. It's easy to change cards and even swap cards between platforms. A GPU for the Intel FSB isn't going to work on an AMD setup or vice versa unless a bridge chip is used... what have you gained in that case?

Since AMD has ATI, and Intel's in house graphics never seem to work out that well, it would make sense for NVidia, Apple and Intel to work on a new PC standard - one that would require new graphics drivers, etc. Apple, with its limited number of hardware configurations could make this work.

Also, graphics chips can use a lot of power, and having a huge 70+ watt _card_ sitting on a 20 year old bus just does not make sense.

ATI and NVidia have been working very well for a while now. The entire reason why we have games that look as good as they do is owed to those two as well as 3DFX for pushing the envelope of what can be done. This of course is with some help from the OpenGL group and Microsoft, who defines the DirectX standard. Intel Integrated graphics have never been considered for serious 3D graphics applications.

Also why would they want to reinvent the wheel for a limited user base? The engineering required to make something "unique" like a GPU tagged onto the FSB would be possible cost effective if it was released for the entire market.

PCIe is not 20 years old. PCI itself isn't 20 years old. PCIe is also not compatible with PCI, it is a serial bus while PCI is a parallel bus. Also what does power draw have to do with a bus itself? The power draw of a GPU is because of the GPU, not how it connects to something. An 8800GTX is going to draw nearly 200W at load if it's on ISA, PCI, AGP, PCIe, or on a FSB.

Silicon Graphics once had a machine designed like this.

Also, see this: It seems that NVidia has a new 'Motherboard GPU' that called MCP79 (or MCP7A-U?)that also supports adding in another pci graphics card that works with Hybrid SLI. http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=42279&page=1

So maybe it will be a NVidia MCP79 on Apple's new Mac Pros? That gives people the option of another graphics card if they just can't get enough.

--

Silicon Graphics also sells very specialized hardware at very high prices. No one is going to buy a Mac for the price SG charges.

That "Motherboard GPU" is just integrated graphics. It's built into the northbridge/southbridge (depending on platform - ATI or AMD). The GPU die is usually just tethered to an internal PCIe link and is a low end product meant to be a step up/competitor to Intel Integrated Graphics.

madmax_2069

Dec 11, 2007, 01:56 AM

PCIe is not 20 years old. PCI itself isn't 20 years old. PCIe is also not compatible with PCI, it is a serial bus while PCI is a parallel bus. Also what does power draw have to do with a bus itself? The power draw of a GPU is because of the GPU, not how it connects to something. An 8800GTX is going to draw nearly 200W at load if it's on ISA, PCI, AGP, PCIe, or on a FSB.

but that is why these newer video cards have a molex connector on them cause the PCI , AGP or PCIe bus cant supply the proper amount of power to the card. if you look at a Geforce2 card it uses the power from the bus, you look at a Geforce 6800 you are going to see 1 or 2 molex connectors on the card so it will function, without them it would not run, cause the bus cant supply that much power to the card.

if you overtax this bus (PCI, AGP, PCIe,) you will run into allot of issues, there is a limit to how much power the said bus can supply to the card in the slot (or combined slots). that is why they put a molex connector on the card so it can get the power directly from the PSU to avoid the bus power overtaxing issue. there is only so much power you can pull from a PCI, AGP, or PCIe

aswitcher

Dec 11, 2007, 03:53 AM

I sure hope the next update fixes AEBSn disk sharing. It's really frustrating how it dies sporadically.

Yeah Apple need to mature their wireless a bit more. You should have some more control over how long an attached HDD spins and disconnects etc

babboxy

Dec 11, 2007, 06:23 AM

are there any chances of the MACPRO not getting updated at all in january...?! :(

knobsturner

Dec 11, 2007, 08:40 AM

Ok - the interfaces, names, etc have changed dramatically, but cards in slots have been around for a long time. Some things are a natural for them, but high power circuits that are included on every (high end) computer are not. Slots should be used for things that most computers DONT need, like fancy RAID controllers, four port ethernet connections, etc.

You can tell when a technology is on its last legs by looking at how complicated it is. These new cards get power from two places, have massive cooling problems, are expensive, etc.

The bus speed of a card is a statement about how fast the graphics card can copy memory from the system memory to the graphics card. If there is no transfer then the speed is infinite. 'Infinite x' IS really the only way to go forward with design. Here is the present path for graphics: Disk -> system memory -> PCI bus -> card memory -> PCI bus -> back to system memory when card is done with the texture -> back to card memory. With a true GPU on the main bus, you have disk->system memory. That's it.

Memory sharing is a GOOD thing. Just buy memory once, and put it all in one place so that anyone can use it. A 2 Gig graphics card is really expensive right now, but with a motherboard GPU, the graphics card can use 2 Gigs of RAM if it needs it, but usually it will not. Heck, on a 16 GB machine, a 3D walkthrough could easily have a 10 GB set of textures. With a 500MB graphics card on a bus, the textures have to unload and load from the card many hundreds of times, using memory bandwidth, etc. It just does not make sense. GPUs have access to the main memory on the computer, but it still chokes up the memory controller, plus you have 2 copies of textures sitting around..

As an example of this, look at OS X. Each window is put onto the screen by the GPU, which allows for all sorts of nice effects like the shadows, etc to happen with 'no' CPU load. But - each of the many windows on your machine has to pass through each system on the computer for each change that happens to it. For each keystroke you make, the window has to be drawn by the CPU, and then reloaded across the PCI bus to the GPU as a new texture. So even though the CPU load is low, there is lots of action on the memory - with at least 2 copies going on, etc. With the right driver and system software, all of this evaporates - the GPU can just show the window.

If the bus on the computer is too slow, then widen it and speed it up. That way the whole machine benefits from having blazing fast memory. The money spent on making that fast bus on the graphics card can be used on the system bus.

Yes they will have to redesign chips to make this work. The 'redesign' is only on the mundane i/o parts of the design. The benefits are numerous: Power problems go away, the computer maker knows where the heat is coming from, there are no cards to rattle around. Want more memory? Add more and the GPU, CPU all get it. GPUs have impressive performance on some non graphics problems, like simulations (eg weather), but now, with the GPU tucked away on some exceeding slow bus, you kinda have to either do your whole job on the card or on the CPU. With everything handy, you can program using both. The list goes on. Plus its cheaper!

A radical redesign would not JUST be for Apple, but rather eventually for everyone. It is just that Apple can ship computers with a new technology easier than the windows world. They have done that before more than a few times.

NVidia's Motheroard GPU is really a step towards this goal. The reason that intel integrated graphics are so bad has everything to do with Intel's graphics team. All the good people there work on CPUs. 'Everyone knows' that integrated graphics are bad. So NVidia needed a new marketing name.

--

Superjanne

Dec 11, 2007, 03:35 PM

is there being a new look on all the MBP`s in january do you think ?

Mac_Max

Dec 13, 2007, 04:14 AM

but that is why these newer video cards have a molex connector on them cause the PCI , AGP or PCIe bus cant supply the proper amount of power to the card. if you look at a Geforce2 card it uses the power from the bus, you look at a Geforce 6800 you are going to see 1 or 2 molex connectors on the card so it will function, without them it would not run, cause the bus cant supply that much power to the card.

if you overtax this bus (PCI, AGP, PCIe,) you will run into allot of issues, there is a limit to how much power the said bus can supply to the card in the slot (or combined slots). that is why they put a molex connector on the card so it can get the power directly from the PSU to avoid the bus power overtaxing issue. there is only so much power you can pull from a PCI, AGP, or PCIe

That still has nothing to do with the bus itself. Power is brought through a connection to the 12v, 5v, or 3.3v rail in the power supply depending on the standard (i.e. PCIe, MXM, Mini PCIe, and Express Card use the same bus but their power delivery capabilities are different). This just has to do with how the standards are written. PCIe 2.0 for example doubles the maximum watts provided but that change did nothing to change the bus (architectural changes were all for the purposes of increasing speed like 33MHz PCI -> 66MHz PCI). All that entails is increasing the width of the traces going to the power pins. They did the same with with AGP Pro. The bus itself is agnostic to power input.

Ok - the interfaces, names, etc have changed dramatically, but cards in slots have been around for a long time. Some things are a natural for them, but high power circuits that are included on every (high end) computer are not. Slots should be used for things that most computers DONT need, like fancy RAID controllers, four port ethernet connections, etc.

You can tell when a technology is on its last legs by looking at how complicated it is. These new cards get power from two places, have massive cooling problems, are expensive, etc.

PCI isn't 20 years old. It came out in the mid 90s. The type of slot it's on is similar to VLB and MCA yes, but not identical, and that has nothing to do with PCI or how much power it can transfer. Also it really isn't that complicated to plug a molex connector into a card. At that logic, socketed motherboards are on their last legs since they need not only an extended ATX connector, but an additional 12v line to power just the CPU.

The massive cooling problems and need for all of that power would still exist if you socketed the GPUs. Most of the power is consumed by the cores.

Also if you want to talk about complicated, the latest PMU designs for Intel CPUs are 4-8 phase completely digital designs. Graphics cards still use simple MOSFETs and power transistors. Power regulation itself is not very difficult. The hard part is simply keeping tolerances in check and thats universal as IC speeds increase. The latest ATX spec will tighten the restrictions on voltage ripple for that reason. There is simply no way to avoid increasingly complex power circuitry no matter how you package it.

The bus speed of a card is a statement about how fast the graphics card can copy memory from the system memory to the graphics card. If there is no transfer then the speed is infinite. 'Infinite x' IS really the only way to go forward with design. Here is the present path for graphics: Disk -> system memory -> PCI bus -> card memory -> PCI bus -> back to system memory when card is done with the texture -> back to card memory. With a true GPU on the main bus, you have disk->system memory. That's it.

Memory sharing is a GOOD thing. Just buy memory once, and put it all in one place so that anyone can use it. A 2 Gig graphics card is really expensive right now, but with a motherboard GPU, the graphics card can use 2 Gigs of RAM if it needs it, but usually it will not. Heck, on a 16 GB machine, a 3D walkthrough could easily have a 10 GB set of textures. With a 500MB graphics card on a bus, the textures have to unload and load from the card many hundreds of times, using memory bandwidth, etc. It just does not make sense. GPUs have access to the main memory on the computer, but it still chokes up the memory controller, plus you have 2 copies of textures sitting around..

It would be nice if it could work that way. The problem with your "infinite X" idea is that without having memory for the card, every execution the GPU makes will require going to the memory. The entire point of having on board memory is to avoid this. It's the same reason why they put caches on CPUs. You're not saving anything. You also don't need two copies of the texture because it's cached in the memory of the card.

The card's memory is massively faster than the connection between FSB and main memory. On average, a P35 (the current fastest chipset as the X38 lags behind by a few percent) can gross ~7GB of bandwidth with quality memory at the 1333MHz FSB at maximum. The 8800 Ultra is rated at 103GB/s bandwidth due to a faster wider bus. The maximum throughput of a 1600MHz FSB is 12.8GB/s. Mind you, the FSB is considered a bottleneck which is why Intel is moving to an integrated memory controller soon.

In addition, when you cut the width of the memory bus (halving the bandwidth generally) performance is simply destroyed (not as critical with the G92 since they're still on a fast 256 bit bus but there is a noticeable difference in some games). This has been noted since the early Radeon days when companies would save money by marketing 64 and 128 bit versions of 128 and 256 bit (respectively) graphics cards.

Also why would you further bottleneck the CPU by using the memory of the system? This is the half the reason why Intel Integrated graphics have always been lamented.

Also you're assuming that you get a huge increase in performance from massive amounts of ram. While its true that textures are getting larger, you're not seeing a 1:1 relationship between memory size and performance. Unfortunately the improvement is never that good.

http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=2159&page=1

Petty much sums it up.

In fact, until you get to an utterly expansive game like Oblivion and turn every graphics option on, HDR, and full AA & AF at 1600x1200 and above, 256MB video cards are still a viable option.

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/xfx_geforce_8800_gt_256mb_xxx_review/page9.asp

Also the memory controller still comes into play no matter how you send data to the memory, PCIe bus or otherwise. There is no second interface to the memory that a socketed GPU could go through, not to mention that you simply would not want to do this.

You're confusing the two display modes OS X will implement. While under Quartz Extreme, the GPU will handle the processing of the UI. This is exclusive from standard Quartz where the CPU tells the GPU what to draw. Thats why Quartz Extreme systems feel zippier than their disabled counterparts. Also the windows are always processed, not just when things are changing. Once again there will not be two copies under Quartz Extreme. Date is sent directly to the video card. And yes, you're right, with the right software, this does all disappear, it's called Quartz Extreme.

[quote]If the bus on the computer is too slow, then widen it and speed it up. That way the whole machine benefits from having blazing fast memory. The money spent on making that fast bus on the graphics card can be used on the system bus.

Easier said than done and not quite. If Intel could just snap their fingers and give us a 512bit bus, I'm sure they would, but the cost and complexity of the components would be ridiculous. Current video card designs treat the memory chip(s) as several memory busses and patch them together a la Dual Channel memory. This is very expensive to do in terms of transistor count. Also memory bandwidth is of most importance to GPUs since it's always dealing with memory since it receives a constant stream of data from it's own fast memory. CPUs on the other hand spend a considerable amount of time running logic and doing other tasks that don't necessarily require large amounts of bandwidth. How much bandwidth can MS word possibly require? Applications that require massive amounts of bandwidth are going the exact opposite way of what you're suggesting, and are being moved onto graphics cards. GPGPUs are being thought of as the next wave in technology because they offer large amounts of floating point power. Sharing a memory bus with a CPU would simply cripple a GPU.

When you widen the bus to an extreme degree and make it very fast, you can share memory, but the poor performance of the PS3 (which uses such an architecture) in some cases has been documented (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/11/25/ps3-version-of-orange-box-might-be-downright-unplayable/). Granted thats not the entire issue (the complexity of programing for 8 SPEs is another), the "technically inferior" Xbox 360 (sharing the same basic instruction set as the Cell's PPE), as well as PCs of comparable spec, which use a traditional architecture, have no such problems.

Yes they will have to redesign chips to make this work. The 'redesign' is only on the mundane i/o parts of the design. The benefits are numerous: Power problems go away, the computer maker knows where the heat is coming from, there are no cards to rattle around.[/url]

I assume the last part is just a dig. Your system may have be missing some screws if you're being literal here. The mundane IO parts you're talking about happens to be the FSB, not something thats easy to design. Also the power problems won't go away just by moving a very hot chip from a card into a socket. Thats like moving a 7L V8 engine from the front of the car to the back. You still need to cool it just the same. Also you still need power circuitry. Nothing goes away except the dedicated memory which doesn't get all that hot to begin with. Actually if you decide to increase your system memory so more is allocated to the GPU, you may end up with more memory chips and more heat.

[quote]Want more memory? Add more and the GPU, CPU all get it. GPUs have impressive performance on some non graphics problems, like simulations (eg weather), but now, with the GPU tucked away on some exceeding slow bus, you kinda have to either do your whole job on the card or on the CPU. With everything handy, you can program using both. The list goes on. Plus its cheaper!

You're right, one advantage would be more memory for the GPU, but the bottlenecks, as explained above, simply makes it not worth it. Also (as mentioned before) in this situation, the memory controller and FSB will have to deal with increased overhead from having another device to feed directly.

A radical redesign would not JUST be for Apple, but rather eventually for everyone. It is just that Apple can ship computers with a new technology easier than the windows world. They have done that before more than a few times.

Something big in terms of performance would definitely never be an Apple exclusive. Apple is a customer of Intel, NVidia, and ATI, just like everyone else, and mind you they're a small one at that. Also big gaming performance is definitely something better shown off through companies like Voodoo PC and Alienware. Apple's game selection is a bit slim to be considered a serious gaming platform.

NVidia's Motheroard GPU is really a step towards this goal. The reason that intel integrated graphics are so bad has everything to do with Intel's graphics team. All the good people there work on CPUs. 'Everyone knows' that integrated graphics are bad. So NVidia needed a new marketing name.

A new name won't save it from the problems inherent with integrated graphics. Honestly, they already know how to use the system memory for graphics. If it was the best way forward they would have been there already. Integrated graphics is not anything new. Nvidia has been doing it since the NForce2 IGP. Intel's solution isn't bad because they put "bad workers" on it. It's designed for business and home uses that exclude high performance 3D. You don't enter an economy car in the Daytona 500, and likewise, an 800HP stock car might make for a fun ride to the store but 4MPG car that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars probably isn't the best choice.

--------

The real future for GPUs and CPUs sharing the same turf is integration onto the die. AMD and Intel are both planning this, but it's not going to be for the highest end GPUs, just the lowest end ones. Both Intel and AMD are planning to make CPUs that feature integrated GPUs but right now the markets are fuzzy and no one knows if they'll be for joe 6 pack and his dell (to, as you said, decrease costs) or if they'll make their way into things like PDA, Cell Phones, and multimedia devices like the iPod Touch/iPhone. It would definitely improve the BOM to replace the three chips they're using now with one that featured the GPU, CPU, IMC, and the local interconnect (Intel and AMD have both shown slides showing roadmaps with CPUs integrating PCIe, GPU, CPU, and IMC).

Really this isn't new stuff besides the integrated GPU. Freescale had this planned since the Motorola days (the e800) and I believe their integrated IMC, CPU, PCI, IO chips have already been in production for a while now. A lot of your enthusiasm for these concepts is good, just placed in the wrong direction and wrong markets ;).

Mac_Max

Dec 13, 2007, 04:21 AM

Sorry for the double post.

IThe motherboard is capable of taking the new Penrynn ...

The BB002 is a nice system. I'm actually not much of a fan of the case. I think the Coolermaster Cosmos and the Antec 900 are nicer looking but thats all a matter of taste.

Just as an FYI, the Striker 680i is the board used in the 002 and unfortunately they don't support Penryn after all and the Striker has been ]confirmed not to work on several forums.

Sorry to be a downer. On the up side, the BB002 was designed by VoodooPC (owned by HP) so it has a standard ATX board which you can replace down the line if you feel so inclined.

Edit: nevermind, there should be a BIOS update to fix that. :)

knobsturner

Dec 13, 2007, 12:27 PM

Sorry if someone took the 'rattle around' of cards as a dig, but it is a real problem. When you ship a million computers, you are going to have problems with cards coming out, no matter what you do. In the end, users (or tech shop people...etc) will open up the box, loosen the connector, slap it back together, and then a week later some percentage will fail.

Basically card slots should be used for optional equipment installed by the end user. (like extra video cards for 3 monitor support, etc).

If NVidia can make a card with 100GB/sec bandwidth, then I want a motherboard with that much. 'Just' take the best graphics card, add 10 GB or RAM, stretch it physically so it looks like a motherboard, and add a CPU. How difficult can that be?

If you read something like http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/macosx-10-4.ars/14 and imagine it with out VRAM constraints, and bottlenecks, you can see what needs to happen.

Gaming is not the hardest 3D thing to do. It is just that right now it is about the _only_ 3D thing that people do on computers. It is really complicated to make a convincing 3D world out of 200MB of memory. It can be done, but you need to sweat the details. That's why games were first - game designers have control over the look and feel of the game space.

In order to walk down a street or a store aisle virtually, you need to load in GBs worth of textures. If this has to be done by squeezing all the data over the PCI or whatever slot, there will be a lot of waiting going on. It looks like the bandwidth on the latest PCIe bus is about 1GB/sec depending on how you measure it. (pinned does not count - you can't wire in textures in real life). http://forums.nvidia.com/lofiversion/index.php?t53039.html

I guess time will tell. If in 3 years everyone who wants the fastest machine is buying graphics cards on some bus then I guess I was wrong.

V.K.

Dec 13, 2007, 01:16 PM

An article just posted on www.tech.co.uk suggests that there won't be any changes to Mac Pro at Macworld Expo except for a speed bump. The analyst also suggests that any major changes will wait till WWDC.

Here is the link.
http://www.tech.co.uk/computing/mac/news/whats-next-for-apple?articleid=583186772

It doesn't make sense to me but is it possible that all we'll see in january is a modest increase in speed and any big changes such as transition to penryns will be pushed back to summer?

Wild-Bill

Dec 13, 2007, 01:26 PM

G4DP

Dec 13, 2007, 02:20 PM

Well as the bloke in the article thinks the MacPro case is only 15 months old, he doesn't realy know what he's on about.

If Apple wait until WWDC to give the Mac Pro penryn, then people are just going to wait until Nehalem. How the hell can he claim the it'll only get a speed bump in Jan is beyond me.

Roy

Dec 13, 2007, 03:31 PM

Bwa

Dec 13, 2007, 04:10 PM

I bought an HP Blackbird 002...

So I went and looked at HP's Blackbird 002 site. Nice looking computer, looks very well thought out. I could kind of see buying one.

Until I saw it only supports 4 GB of RAM.

Whoops! Oh well.

Superjanne

Dec 14, 2007, 06:39 AM

but are the possible the MBP`s are going for new design ?

Umbongo

Dec 14, 2007, 07:54 AM

babboxy

Dec 15, 2007, 04:01 PM

are there still people out there buying these machines?

I really enjoy throwing my boss's money out of the window ("spend whatever you need, but get the job done") ... so I guess there's nothing more rewarding for me then to buy a MAC PRO now.:mad:

aaronw1986

Dec 15, 2007, 07:15 PM

swearbymac07

Dec 16, 2007, 12:34 AM

I really hope Apple implement 'Kinetic Scrolling' in Mac OS X 10.5.2 and higher, I also hope that Apple implement iPhone-esk Scrollbars (That appear when the mouse nears them). Maybe fix all of iTunes' bugs and implement "click and flip" to see tracks on the opposite side of the Album Art in Maximum Cover Flow View.

I hope to at least see one of these built into 10.5.2.

motulist

Dec 16, 2007, 01:06 AM

swearbymac07

Dec 16, 2007, 02:02 AM

Major new features like those as a .2 update? Extremely doubtful. Keep dreaming though.

Smart Scroll X does the Kinetic Scrolling Effect in Mac OS X (Even Leopard)
I tried it and i love it, its perfect. If a 3rd Party can do it with the mouse and a scroll wheel/trackpad Apple should be able to do it without any difficulty in 10.5.2 Or .3.

As for the scrollbars appearing when the mouse nears them, I was wildly dreaming while typing.

I still hope iTunes "Click and Flip" is implemented though.

babboxy

Dec 16, 2007, 07:25 AM

Not those of us who are educated....we're waiting till Jan 15th.

so I better wait for Jan 14th to maximize the effect, right?! :D

motulist

Dec 16, 2007, 12:00 PM

If a 3rd Party can do it with the mouse and a scroll wheel/trackpad Apple should be able to do it without any difficulty in 10.5.2 Or .3.

That's not true at all.

First, the reason why you probably won't see it in a .2 or .3 update isn't because the feature itself is very difficult to implement, it's because in the first couple of point revisions the priority is on quashing bugs and cleaning up the problems in the ENTIRE OS code base. Adding new non-essential features is very low priority on the programmer's to do list.

Second, it takes a LOT more work for Apple to implement a new feature than the amount of work it takes for a 3rd party to create it as an add-on feature. Every feature that Apple implements as an integrated feature of the OS has to be extensively tested to make sure it doesn't cause problems in any piece of software or conflict with any hardware that exists. The 3rd party has to do no (or much less) such testing because they are not as accountable to the entire universe of users out there, and because their add-on feature can be easily uninstalled if it causes a user buggy problems, which is not possible for a feature that's integrated into the OS.

But hey, never say never. Anything is possible, I've sometimes been happily surprised when Apple did something sooner than I thought they were going to do it. But that hasn't happened too many times.

babboxy

Dec 17, 2007, 01:45 PM

apple store is down... NEW MAC PRO BEFORE CHRISTMAS .... haha dream on :p

Superjanne

Dec 17, 2007, 03:56 PM

but i ask again, do you think pro is get a new design ???

Malarkey

Dec 17, 2007, 05:09 PM

agent229

Dec 17, 2007, 10:26 PM

well i'm glad i saw this... i haven't had a desktop in 4 years (the last one i had was also 4 years old when i ditched it.... 4gb of total hard drive space just doesn't cut it lol!!) so i was pricing some mac pros the other day but i think i will hold out for a few weeks just to make sure.

i looked at the blackbird too... if i got it i would have to use linux :p no vista for me. but i dunno, i configured what seemed pretty similar to my mac pro configuration and it was more expensive ::shrug:: maybe i'm missing something but... yeah... i'll definitely be waiting now, as much as i hate playing this game....

V.K.

Dec 18, 2007, 09:19 AM

These ridiculously enormous towers have been around for how many years? Is there any chance that there will be a new design? I want a new Mac Pro but the size and weight of these behemoths is making me think about getting an iMac. :confused:

I suppose a new design is possible but it shouldn't be a priority in case of Mac Pros. They typically sit under desks out of the view so the look is not that important. This is definitely true for my Mac pro in my office. I hardly ever look at the tower itself so who cares what it looks like and how big it is.

What I want is changes to what's under the hood: penryns and better graphics cards.

It's quite a different story for iMacs which sit right in front of you all the time. The appearance really counts there.

Umbongo

Dec 18, 2007, 11:38 AM

mcnaugha

Dec 18, 2007, 11:46 AM

Rumor has it 10.5.2 just went outside of Apple for testing. Expect to see it on ADC before the week's out or this weekend.

It is habit for Apple to release before Christmas, but I don't see that with such a late start on the testing. I could see this being released at MacWorld now.

Rumor also has it that the Mac Pro could very well see a brand new design because the manufacturing plants were being prep'd for major changes to the lines that handle the Mac Pro.

Roy

Dec 18, 2007, 12:59 PM

G4DP

Dec 18, 2007, 02:35 PM

I just wish Apple would release something new. Don't care anymore, i'm just fed up of looking at the sodding iPhone!

mcnaugha

Dec 18, 2007, 05:25 PM

You have a link or source?

You're an Apple spy or lawyer right? As if I can name my source.

Let's narrow it down to someone who recently toured a manufacturing plant.

Unfortunately this is one of those ones where you'll need to wait til MacWorld to see if it's true. Unless some cheeky person releases a snapshot before Steve shows it.

Silverhawk

Dec 24, 2007, 01:25 PM

With the recent events of Hybrid CrossFire from ATI, if they do go with ATI hopefully they can integrate this technology down the road because it leaves room price wise to have a low to mid-end card and give a decent video performance.

Lynxpro

Dec 26, 2007, 01:17 PM

Somehow it seems nobody believes that MWSF could be the stage for this *huge* update. First Blu-Ray drives...
8 Cores over 3 GHz...
1600 MHz FSB...

No matter how much Jobs might wish that the HD transition era be managed by iTunes, I think it is time for him to be a pragmatist and put an end to the format war by including Blu-ray drives on the Macs.

The iMacs and the MacBooks could easily have DVD burner/Blu-ray readable drives standard now that the prices have dropped. Then include the BD-R drives on the Mac Pro and MacBook Pro models.

Apple has been a member of the BDA for over a year now; it is time for them to ship some product. Not only would this help out Jobs' stake in Disney, but it would also kick some more sand in the face of Microsoft since HD DVD truly is their format...and anything that hurts Microsoft pretty much is a win for Apple.

Lynxpro

Dec 26, 2007, 01:26 PM

All this and not to mention that HD DVD is winning the hardware war. I mean damn, did you see that Wally World had limited quantities of HD DVD players on sale for $99! Also, from what I can see a lot of studios have moved away from blu-ray exclusive releases. Even the ones that do do blu-ray only releases in the US often release the same movie in HD format overseas.

No it [HD DVD] isn't. Blu-ray is selling media wise in the States 2 or 3 to 1 versus HD DVD, even without counting the various BOGO [buy 1 get 1 free] promos. The only HD DVD hardware manufacturer is Toshiba, whereas Blu-ray decks are made by Sony, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, LG, Panasonic, and more. Overseas, it is 70/30 in Blu-ray's favor in Europe and Australia, and 90%+ in favor of Blu-ray in Japan.

And when it comes to studios, only Universal and Paramount/Dreamworks Animation are HD DVD exclusive; Paramount/Dreamworks being exclusive for 18 months because Microsoft/Toshiba gave them $150 million in cold-hard-cash for that exclusivity. Warner is format neutral, but is rumored to be going Blu-ray exclusive - even though they own intellectual property in HD DVD - after January 2008. The rest of the studios...Disney/Pixar/Buena Vista/Miramax, Fox, Sony/MGM are all Blu-ray exclusive.

HD DVD is toast, and anything that states differently is Microsoft sponsored FUD.

mangoman

Dec 26, 2007, 01:33 PM

No it [HD DVD] isn't. Blu-ray is selling media wise in the States 2 or 3 to 1 versus HD DVD, even without counting the various BOGO [buy 1 get 1 free] promos. The only HD DVD hardware manufacturer is Toshiba, whereas Blu-ray decks are made by Sony, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, LG, Panasonic, and more. Overseas, it is 70/30 in Blu-ray's favor in Europe and Australia, and 90%+ in favor of Blu-ray in Japan.

And when it comes to studios, only Universal and Paramount/Dreamworks Animation are HD DVD exclusive; Paramount/Dreamworks being exclusive for 18 months because Microsoft/Toshiba gave them $150 million in cold-hard-cash for that exclusivity. Warner is format neutral, but is rumored to be going Blu-ray exclusive - even though they own intellectual property in HD DVD - after January 2008. The rest of the studios...Disney/Pixar/Buena Vista/Miramax, Fox, Sony/MGM are all Blu-ray exclusive.

HD DVD is toast, and anything that states differently is Microsoft sponsored FUD.

From what I've heard, where the porn industry goes, so goeth the format...

Lynxpro

Dec 26, 2007, 01:40 PM

From what I've heard, where the porn industry goes, so goeth the format...

And speaking of, Digital Playground, which was famously HD DVD exclusive in that genre, has just announced that they will be supporting Blu-ray...

Lynxpro

Dec 26, 2007, 01:40 PM

But with Sony in charge of it, I expect it to stay at a premium over the "standardised" formats. Yes, Apple is a member of the HD DVD group and the BR Association and has stated in the past that it will back both formats.

I think you have it backward... HD DVD is proprietary. Sony has much less control over Blu-ray than Microsoft has of HD DVD. Toshiba is just the frontman of HD DVD.

As for Apple being on the HD DVD board, that's only so that their hardware isn't locked out of playing HD DVD discs if the format wins. Apple does not benefit at all from HD DVD's near exclusive use of Microsoft's VC-1 codec [aka Windows Media 9] whereas Blu-ray now almost exclusively uses H.264 "AVC" as a codec on their releases, which we all know that Apple worked on. Blu-ray uses a customized version of Java for their interactive menus while HD DVD uses Microsoft's HDi format.

If you really think Apple wants Microsoft to gain another revenue licensing stream in consumer electronics, you might want to ponder why it is that Apple's iTunes/iPod platform has yet to license Microsoft's WMA audio codec.

Why do people not understand this on a pro-Apple website?

Peace

Dec 26, 2007, 01:42 PM

Microsoft is switching to H.264 for their High Definition media.

Eidorian

Dec 26, 2007, 01:44 PM

Microsoft is switching to H.264 for their High Definition media.Le gasp!

Not that it's that surprising.

ghstmars

Dec 26, 2007, 05:59 PM

Microsoft is switching to H.264 for their High Definition media.

Do you have a link of that news ? or heard it on the grapevine?

jalcide

Dec 26, 2007, 07:22 PM

I agree. I've got the last generation of the powerbook g4 in the 17" form-factor and am always asked by people how "portable" it is. I always point out this comparison: A 13/15" owner gets to enjoy packing up their laptop in a backpack, traveling to their destination, unpacking it and then using it. I, on the other hand, being a 17" owner get to enjoy packing up my laptop in a backpack, traveling to my destination, unpacking it and then using it.

To me, the extra weight and size become invisible once it's packed up. On the other hand, the time I spend actually in front of it trying to get work done, with the extra pixels, is very much visible.

faisal

Jan 3, 2008, 03:14 PM

What do we have here -- it's G4DP, shadow boxing with the invisible hand.

WHO GIVES A POO ABOUT A ULTRA PORTABLE!.

The same people who bought the 12" PowerBook, held out forever for a replacement, and are split between (a) still holding out, (b) giving up and buying a 15", (c) giving up and buying a Windows box that weighs 1-2 lbs less than the 12" PowerBook.

YOU CAN'T ACTUALLY DO ANY SERIOUS WORK ON A SCREEN THAT'S 13"

While you may not be able to do any "serious work" on a screen that's 13", I was able to do a fair amount of serious work on a 12" screen over the course of 5 years, and only gave up when I was no longer to get anything done with an 867 Mhz processor.

IS IT TOO HEAVY FOR YOU TO CARRY.

Many of the people doing this "serious work" of which you speak wind up with wrist injuries as a result -- wrist injuries which make lifting bulky laptops both painful and damaging. For that matter, many people who've followed the manly advice to just do some squats and dead-lifting found that their manly advisors don't know squat about physical health, and people who aren't careful with their weight lifting regimen wind up with the sort of spinal injuries that make it painful to carry even minor loads on their back. While it is true that these people received bad advice on the personal health front, all the all-caps typing in the world isn't going to make it a good idea for them to carry around an overweight laptop.

WELL BE A MAN AND GROW SOME.

It's a little known fact that the majority of people are not, in fact, men, and are biologically incapable of growing some. If you are able to affect low-cost sex changes at scale you may wish to commercialize it -- there's a large market (albeit probably not as large as the market for a low-weight laptop running Mac OS X).

Anger vented

Window opened, fan turned on.

kaiwai

Jan 3, 2008, 06:55 PM

Good lord - 'Intel's latest compilers blah blah blah' - the last time I looked, Intel's compilers didn't support objective-C and Objective-C++. They can't be using LLVM because CLANG is no where near finished.

As for Itanium - the only people supporting that thing is HP and a small handful; even Intel with its push of Xeon, acknowledge that its (Itanium) is nothing more than a giant white elephant.

rosalindavenue

Jan 5, 2008, 03:15 PM

From what I've heard, where the porn industry goes, so goeth the format...

That may have been true for VHS and a maybe even for DVD, but that industry is getting killed by free downloads like youpr0n and amateur stuff. Cite:

http://tinyurl.com/2sfznn

G4DP

Jan 5, 2008, 04:10 PM

faisal, god that was a good read. Thank you for brightening my day.

Apple rewrites a whole OS because of a new instruction set? I don't think so.

byeehaaw

Jan 15, 2008, 03:15 PM

where is it!

Anonymous Freak

Jan 16, 2008, 03:36 PM

Apple rewrites a whole OS because of a new instruction set? I don't think so.

See: Apple Intel transition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Intel_transition) and iPhone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone). (Although I do hope you were being sarcastic.)