Panther No Longer Pre-Release?

[MacRumors]

There have been reports that Apple has seeded new internal releases of Mac OS X Panther (7B80 and 7B81).

While there's been a significant amount of attention on the updated Apple Logo found in Mac OS X 7B74, according to an anonymous report, build 7B80 has another subtle but notable change:

The Mac OS X Version number in 7B80 has shed the "Pre-Release" status and is now simply labeled "Version 10.3". (Panther Screenshot (http://www.chaosmint.com/macintosh/articles/mac-os-x-panther-about.shtml))

This correlates with reports (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/09/20030926183652.shtml) that Apple is putting the finishing touches on Panther. Speculation has placed Panther's final release in October (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/09/20030901113109.shtml), with one Page 2 Rumor (http://page2.macrumors.com) hinting at a October 24th (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/09/20030922162504.shtml) as a possibility.

[shadowfax]

i wonder if they are going to add any unexpected new features to it... has there been any speculation on this? (i.e., what new features they might be, rather than whether or not they will ad them)

[applemacdude]

We are getting closer and closer to the final build. id say one or two more builds and it will come the 24th.

[FattyMembrane]

i really hope that it's close to finished (i'm sitting on a new hd, waiting until panther ships to install it). i also hope that apple fixes all of the cosmetic bugs before this ships, the small buttons in the picture still look like the 10.2 style (there are now 3 styles of gloss within the same os :mad: ).

[Masao[RY]]

I can't wait until Panther is released :-)

[franciskang]

i think they should release it october third. (10/3).

[MacSlut]

Correct me if I'm wrong...I very well could be, but I thought the B represented that it was a pre-release (beta) and C represented a release candidate.

So shouldn't it be 7C81?

That being said, it really does feel like we're getting close, but I think we'd be having more of the "any day now" feeling if we saw the B replaced with a C.

[Balin64]

But with the spelling: "Duale"

Weird. I just bought an iMac, 12" Powerbook and wireless keyboard/mouse. I sure hope Apple would at least give me a discount! THE day Panther comes out, there is no way in hell I'm going to stay home: I am going out and buying it....

unless, I can tell my employer I need the upgrade. What's he going to say, no? They spend so much on Wintel upgrades and antu-virus software, yet they never spend anything on me because I bought my own Mac to use at work. Hell yeah: I am just ordering on the company credit card. If anyone questions me I will say it was a necessary upgrade. What are they going to do fire me?

Man, I get off topic so much...

[dho]

Sweet

I cant wait

[dguisinger]

You guys have no ideas how software development works. Removing "Pre-Release" and beta notes from dialogs doesn't happen overnight. Its not removed at the last second, they are removed often upto a month before release so that people can report places where text we left where it shouldn't be. This doesn't mean they have hit release canidate. It means they are making normal preperations to begin the release canidate stage. At this point, any place that has text that makes it appear as a beta is considered a bug.

[arn]

Originally posted by MacSlut
Correct me if I'm wrong...I very well could be, but I thought the B represented that it was a pre-release (beta) and C represented a release candidate.


No, I don't think it works like this.

The current Jaguar build is 6R

arn

[ratspg]

sounds good... betas were great... guess its finally done :) bring that shiz on!

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by arn
No, I don't think it works like this.

The current Jaguar build is 6R

arn i agree, but how do they get from, say, 7Bxx to 7Cxx? just after 7B99, or what?

[yujini]

Hope it's this month!
Been waiting and waiting for the new powerbook,
and still waiting and waiting till the new panther comes out.

Hopefully i can get my new pbook before they announce the new
powerbooks :)

[bennetsaysargh]

i had a panther build 7A202 (the origional panther release)
A stand for alpha? no.

[doubting_me]

It's a stretch but many Powerbook 12 inch orders were pushed back until October 3. With the 10.2.8 snafu's they may have thought it was worth delaying to get Panther on the machines.

It seems like a long shot, but that is what rumors are for, I guess.

[iLife]

if it comes out the 24th, it would be awesome to be able to go down to the apple store on my freaking birthday and use apple cards that people got me as presents along with what i hope is some discount from buying a G5 to get panther... here's to wishing.

:D

[arn]

Originally posted by dguisinger
where text we left where it shouldn't be. This doesn't mean they have hit release canidate.

I didn't mean to imply that it had... just that they are initiating the process.

arn

[wrldwzrd89]

I am looking forward to the release of Panther. I am pleased to hear that Apple is working on getting Panther closer to GM. I want to install it (or have it pre-installed) on a PowerMac G5.

I'm undecided as to whether to put it on my current machine, a PowerBook G4 667 Mhz 512 MB RAM w/ Airport card (the old 667 Mhz model, not the newer one).

[Golem]

Originally posted by shadowfax
i agree, but how do they get from, say, 7Bxx to 7Cxx? just after 7B99, or what?

From my understanding 10.3.1? will be 7CXX and for apple the letters have nothing to do with alpha,beta etc. Their is a detailed explanation in a similar thread ahh here it is Panther 7B53 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36829)

[Edit] it was the post by catfish man. Not sure how to link to a particular post.

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by franciskang
i think they should release it october third. (10/3).
I wouldn't put it past Apple...

[blueBomber]

I hope it's released soon... I've finally convinced my boss to upgrade our macs to os X (been stuck in 9 for what seems like forever). Anybody have any word on what Postscript support is looking like in Panther?

[weev]

Ok, what about the bottom line here...

How much will Panther cost?; and will customers of the latest powerbooks, iMacs, etc, get a discount?

I think they should get a free upgrade but Apple has not been so generous about this in the past.

[stockscalper]

Wow, the itunes operating system is almost ready and just in time to be released with the fugly G5'S and new fugly AL PB's. This isn't the year of the Powerbook for Apple, it's the year of U G L Y ! Yes, Apple has finally made their operating system look worse than Windows, their laptops look like Gateway's and their desktops like dorm refrigerators.

[Freg3000]

Ok. Reality check. 10.3 on 10/3 ain't gonna happen.

October 3rd is 6 days away. 6 Days. Although it would be a nice Apple touch, I just don't see it happening.
My best bet is 10-24.

[Mr.Hey]

This is great news. I have my $120 ready and willing.

[beg_ne]

Originally posted by weev
Ok, what about the bottom line here...

How much will Panther cost?; and will customers of the latest powerbooks, iMacs, etc, get a discount?

I think they should get a free upgrade but Apple has not been so generous about this in the past.

Most likely it will cost $129, same as Jaguar.

It's impossible to say if/who will get free/discounted Panther, only apple knows and they haven't said anything yet.

It would be very nice if they gave recent purchasers free upgrades, but thats up to them. I certainly hope noone whines if they don't get a free upgrade, because quite frankly Apple has no obligation to give it free to anyone yet.

I'll gladly pay full price to put Panther on my new G5,.

[dho]

stockscalper:

yes Apple's use of metal can be very anoying.

Once I got past the whole metal part, panther was awsome.

If it is really that bad to see so much metal, chill out and get a dell.

[appleguru1]

Wow, the itunes operating system is almost ready and just in time to be released with the fugly G5'S and new fugly AL PB's. This isn't the year of the Powerbook for Apple, it's the year of U G L Y ! Yes, Apple has finally made their operating system look worse than Windows, their laptops look like Gateway's and their desktops like dorm refrigerators.

Uhhh.. NO. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I think Apple makes some of the sexiest hardware and software out there. The new PBS are absolutely gorgeous, as are the new G5s (Much, much more so in person than online, if you haven't seem on yet, go to your nearest Apple Store, and check em out). I just don't see any resemblance to Gateway at all, and I love the way panther looks and feels. It definitely has some major improvements over Jag.

[Dippo]

It's good to see Apple is finally going to release Panther soon. I guess all I need now is a Mac to run it :(

It's funny that Apple can release an OS pretty much every year while Microsoft can't. I know that XP has been out for a couple of years now...with all those billions, and all that time, you would think Microsoft could write a decent OS...I guess they are just missing something.

All the more reason the switch, now if I just wasn't broke...

PS: First post ever!

[beefcake]

I want Panther so badly. As a first time Mac user, I can't wait to see a newer, better operating system actually improve performance on my PB. I'm so excited for Panther, I'm actually going to pay for it.

[bidge]

Originally posted by iLife
if it comes out the 24th, it would be awesome to be able to go down to the apple store on my freaking birthday and use apple cards that people got me as presents along with what i hope is some discount from buying a G5 to get panther... here's to wishing.

:D

Yeah it's my birthday then too. Woohoo

[DeusOmnis]

Hopefully panther will be released next week..... lol.... i'm so excited and tired of waiting...

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by arn
I didn't mean to imply that it had... just that they are initiating the process.

arn

That screenshot says "duale" processor. So either it is a fake or has a known bug (easter egg) or dozens of people at Apple and in seed programs cannot spell.

Dual

Dualie

So is Panther 64 going to be a separate full release or wil the computer "recognize" 64bit elements to the OS and use them invisibly as needed?

64 bit and 32 bit windows?

Rocketman

[tugrul]

Originally posted by Freg3000
Ok. Reality check. 10.3 on 10/3 ain't gonna happen.

October 3rd is 6 days away. 6 Days. Although it would be a nice Apple touch, I just don't see it happening.
My best bet is 10-24.

How about 10/30. It is 10.3.0, ain't it? :)

[jimsowden]

think about what the letters mean. B for Beta, C for Candidate, and R for Release. Pretty simple.

[StealthRider]

Originally posted by stockscalper
Wow, the itunes operating system is almost ready and just in time to be released with the fugly G5'S and new fugly AL PB's. This isn't the year of the Powerbook for Apple, it's the year of U G L Y ! Yes, Apple has finally made their operating system look worse than Windows, their laptops look like Gateway's and their desktops like dorm refrigerators.

dude, relax...no one's making you buy..

[crazytom]

The biggest feature I'm hoping will be in Panther is to get my two M-Audio Delta 1010 audio cards to work simultaneously. When I upgraded to OS X, the feature I found was I could only use one at a time and was stuck booting in 9. That really put a damper on how 'great' Core Audio is for me!

I also hope that they make a sweat offer to educators for an upgrade --- my wife's a teacher. But if I could have a guarantee that my two audio cards would work together, I'd have no qualms paying full price....I'm not holding my breath, though.

[Evan Laurie]

In the screenshot there's a different desktop background than the default Aqua Blue in Jaguar and in other Panther builds. Is that going to be the new Aqua Blue desktop background or did someone just change it for that screenshot?

[Freg3000]

Originally posted by Evan Laurie
In the screenshot there's a different desktop background than the default Aqua Blue in Jaguar and in other Panther builds. Is that going to be the new Aqua Blue desktop background or did someone just change it for that screenshot?

Yes, the default Apple desktop has changed.

[zaphoyd]

Originally posted by jimsowden
think about what the letters mean. B for Beta, C for Candidate, and R for Release. Pretty simple.


Uh... the letters mean nothing. Previous jaguar release builds have had L's and other letters. The only number that really signifies anything is the very first one.

[arn]

Originally posted by jimsowden
think about what the letters mean. B for Beta, C for Candidate, and R for Release. Pretty simple.

and is still incorrect.

previous release builds were 'K' I believe.

There is a logic to them, someone posted it a while back.... I think the 1st number is the Darwin build... the others I don't recall. (but not as simple as B=beta)

arn

[arn]

Originally posted by Rocketman
That screenshot says "duale" processor. So either it is a fake or has a known bug (easter egg) or dozens of people at Apple and in seed programs cannot spell.


...or were using a non-english install.

arn

[iDONTsteal]

I think some of these posts are awesome!

look like a frige?

released on 10/3

C=Chaos

How about 'Panthers make good house pets?'

After I Close on my first house, there's a 15" PB that will bless MY first doorstep properly as its' first delivery.

:cool:

[tyson12zoll]

Originally posted by arn
...or were using a non-english install.

arn

I've tryed changing the language under jag with no difference in the text. I also notice that on my dual 2.0 G5 it says "processors" not "processor"

[iDONTsteal]

Originally posted by tyson12zoll
I've tryed changing the language under jag with no difference in the text. I also notice that on my dual 2.0 G5 it says "processors" not "processor"


IT should display processors on a dual 2GHz G5.... because there are 2 processors - right!

I wish I had one to see what it'd say!! :cool:

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by crazytom
The biggest feature I'm hoping will be in Panther is to get my two M-Audio Delta 1010 audio cards to work simultaneously. When I upgraded to OS X, the feature I found was I could only use one at a time and was stuck booting in 9. That really put a damper on how 'great' Core Audio is for me!

Be careful with blaming everything just on Apple. M-Audio never really got their act together in writing actually flawlessly working drivers for their hardware under Mac OS X. Shall I tell you how long it took me to get a driver that finally gave me back my audiophile 24/96? And still I can't use the MIDI-Interface and I am using an extry USB MIDIman for that. Apple is maybe responsible for some stuff, but definately not for the flawed drivers by 3rd party vendors...

groovebuster

[iHack]

Originally posted by shadowfax
i wonder if they are going to add any unexpected new features to it... has there been any speculation on this? (i.e., what new features they might be, rather than whether or not they will ad them)

No way. unexpected = untested. Not going to happen. A possibility is for features to be dropped, though. M$ typically is dropping features. Hmm, when windows goes from release candidate to it's final release build, that is, not the features it drops after you have installed it :D

M.

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by Freg3000
Ok. Reality check. 10.3 on 10/3 ain't gonna happen.

October 3rd is 6 days away. 6 Days. Although it would be a nice Apple touch, I just don't see it happening.
My best bet is 10-24.
Of course it ain't gonna happen on 10/3. But dreaming is allowed, no?

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by MacSlut
Correct me if I'm wrong...I very well could be, but I thought the B represented that it was a pre-release (beta) and C represented a release candidate.

So shouldn't it be 7C81?

That being said, it really does feel like we're getting close, but I think we'd be having more of the "any day now" feeling if we saw the B replaced with a C.

My iMac is still running a build number with an L in it.

What the hell does that mean? That I'm running the Lambda Release?

Originally posted by stockscalper
Wow, the itunes operating system is almost ready and just in time to be released with the fugly G5'S and new fugly AL PB's. This isn't the year of the Powerbook for Apple, it's the year of U G L Y ! Yes, Apple has finally made their operating system look worse than Windows, their laptops look like Gateway's and their desktops like dorm refrigerators.

If you insult my 15" AlBook again I'll beat you up with it!

Originally posted by beg_ne
Most likely it will cost $129, same as Jaguar.

It's impossible to say if/who will get free/discounted Panther, only apple knows and they haven't said anything yet.

It would be very nice if they gave recent purchasers free upgrades, but thats up to them. I certainly hope noone whines if they don't get a free upgrade, because quite frankly Apple has no obligation to give it free to anyone yet.

I'll gladly pay full price to put Panther on my new G5,.

I just know that I'm not paying list price. Educational discounts and high-speed internet are the only redeeming qualities of going to college, let me tell you.

[CooCooCaChoo]

Originally posted by stockscalper
Wow, the itunes operating system is almost ready and just in time to be released with the fugly G5'S and new fugly AL PB's. This isn't the year of the Powerbook for Apple, it's the year of U G L Y ! Yes, Apple has finally made their operating system look worse than Windows, their laptops look like Gateway's and their desktops like dorm refrigerators.

Could someone please give this young man a make over. Obviously he is your a-typical, "I wouldn't know style if it hit me like a surface to air missile".

The G5's are industrial, sexy, and minimalistic. The Powerbooks are continuining the same tradition.

You may like fisher price, candy coated, loud, ostentatious, and straight out "tacky" hardware, but some prefer the more "mature" look.

You remind me of those type of people who buy funiture with curls, twirls and other crap that make it an eye sore, where as I prefer the clean straight lines of shaker style furniture that does away with the unnecessary frills and provides a clean, elegant finish.

[xone]

A 'sweat' offer? That doesn't sound enticing! (':D')

[PHGN]

NOT sure if this is right, but I read it on the other thread and it's the best explanation yet:

Panther Build 7B81

First Number 7
Corresponds to the Darwin version.

First Letter B
Refers to which 'branch' of the Darwin code is used. IE as Darwin evolves there will be many different 'branches' after each major version. One branch is then selected as the base for the next OS and so further development occurs form said branch. During development they may well switch branches.

Second Number 81
Indicates build number. IE 81st version using Darwin 7 Branch B.

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by PHGN
NOT sure if this is right, but I read it on the other thread and it's the best explanation yet:

Panther Build 7B81

First Number 7
Corresponds to the Darwin version.

First Letter B
Refers to which 'branch' of the Darwin code is used. IE as Darwin evolves there will be many different 'branches' after each major version. One branch is then selected as the base for the next OS and so further development occurs form said branch. During development they may well switch branches.

Second Number 81
Indicates build number. IE 81st version using Darwin 7 Branch B.
Thank you for the explanation. I was WAY too lazy to go and check in the relevant threads...

[Heltik]

I'm not sure about all this 3rd October stuff. I'm betting that they're way behind schedule and will release it on the 10th of March (10/3) to appease us Brits....

Seriously.

:D :D

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by Heltik
I'm not sure about all this 3rd October stuff. I'm betting that they're way behind schedule and will release it on the 10th of March (10/3) to appease us Brits....

Seriously.

:D :D
I think they'll have to do a LOT more then that to appease us Europeans (I know you said Brits, but I don't qualify).
iTMS - check
iPhoto prints - check
Sherlock - check (not really bothered though)

Oh well...

[thedoc1111]

Windows 64 bit exists because th original 64 bit Intel processors could not run 32 bit code except in emulation, think Virtual PC to Mac OS X Carbon. So all of the code had to be rewritten for 64 bit. Panther's code is 32 bit, but luckily the G5 processor, like the new AMD procs runs 32 bit code natively with no to extraordinarily little loss of speed. Therefore no need for Panther 64.

And the pic was likelytaken on a French or other non English language localised beta hence the language gap (look at 'processor' as well)

[thedoc1111]

If you want grey or shiny plastic, or perhaps a nice black placcy centrino laptop without a disc drive, feel free to buy from Dull and Sony etc. Apple's design may not always suit everyones taste, but it is light years ahead of everyone elses. So please stop going on about Aluminium. This is not a flame, just hoping, right? :)

[Burrell]

No report I've read yet is stating the obvious. Apple is trouncing Microsoft on timely & advanced & stable OS updates in an underlying multi-decade well developed stable OS kernal in a 64 bit multi-processor form. 10.2 comes out & then 10.3 is ready in less than a year. There are occassional stability issues like with this Ethernet bug of last week, but that is rare.

MS Long Horn is a longwayaway and MS is not sure when. I think MS has boxed themselves into a hole by attempting to keep most of their OS proprietary in a world where standardization eventually takes over. Jobs saw that and took advantage of Unix, where Gates was to scared to go!

Look at the automobiles of exactly a century ago where steering, throttles and brakes were accomplished with tillers, wheels, levers, pedals, and arms that were pulled, pushed and turned.

Automobiles today are so close on standardization that most any driver can get in almost any new car and drive it off in a minute or two after finding the slot for the ignition key. I think Apple is getting close to that point on its user interface.

I've watched older people who are obviously not using a computer much, if at all, come in my local Apple store and start to work the cursor in the Finder, and start to get the hang of working the Finder to open files & try things in minutes.

I will not be surprised to see Apple's market share jump quite a bit in 2004. Apple has hit it right for both new users who will just email and take photos and power users who need Production Output.

Bo Clawson

[iHack]

Originally posted by NicoMan
I think they'll have to do a LOT more then that to appease us Europeans (I know you said Brits, but I don't qualify).
iTMS - check
iPhoto prints - check
Sherlock - check (not really bothered though)

Oh well...

prices that don't subsidise US buyers - check

Let's compare a stock 17" Powerbook:
US Apple store (online): $ 2999,--
And to name few Euro prices (online):
German store € 3479,-- (VAT 16%) = US $ 3995
UK store GBP 2399,-- (VAT 17,5) = US $ 3983,--
Dutch store: € 3568,-- (VAT 19%) = US $ 4097,--
Belgian store € 3629,-- (VAT 21%) = US $ 4167,--

That's a European mark-up of about 33%. I checked G5's too - they take a 25% mark-up. Cross-Atlantic shipping must be very expensive... :mad:

Hey, when I give myself a budget of $ 1100,00 I can buy a ticket for me and my wife, from Amsterdam to New-York and check into a nice hotel for a few days. When I buy my PowerBook while I there, I can still save money! Seems like a nice way to surprise her :) .

BTW, Japanese store 379800,-- (VAT ?) US $ 3397,-- equals + 13% Hey, what would a ticket to Tokyo cost...

M.

[jouster]

Originally posted by Burrell
Apple is trouncing Microsoft on timely & advanced & stable OS updates

Except, of course, for the most recent one........

[crazytom]

Originally posted by groovebuster
Be careful with blaming everything just on Apple. M-Audio never really got their act together in writing actually flawlessly working drivers for their hardware under Mac OS X. Shall I tell you how long it took me to get a driver that finally gave me back my audiophile 24/96? And still I can't use the MIDI-Interface and I am using an extry USB MIDIman for that. Apple is maybe responsible for some stuff, but definately not for the flawed drivers by 3rd party vendors...

groovebuster

Yes, I'm being careful. I've heard from a couple of sources that Apple is working with M-Audio to solve this issue and it is because of the way Core Audio is written. I also know that my M-Audio driver isn't perfect: if I don't switch my buffer setting (at startup using Bias Deck), I get unexpected quits. It seems there's a problem with the MIDIserver (my initial troubleshooting left me with 5 MIDIserver processes running....switching the buffer, in effect flushing it, solved that problem....annoying & maybe a M-Audio driver issue). I'm very aware of who to blame for the problems I'm having (when I do finally place the blame)...the only difference is that M-Audio can be contacted and will respond to my needs (heck, they even released an updated driver for their Revolution sound card the day after 10.2.8 disabled it), and Apple is such the giant that they won't hear me shouting at them unless I have a chorus of thousands of other people shouting with me. (Sorry, I'm kinda jaded from my MDD Windtunnel issue.)

[mistersquid]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
..........
I just know that I'm not paying list price. Educational discounts and high-speed internet are the only redeeming qualities of going to college, let me tell you.

Either you need to go to a new college or you should quit going.

[PHGN]

I'm not sure that the difference in pricing is Apple's fault. I don't think there is any sales tax paid in the states; shipping across state lines etc.

I compared UK price from Apple Store less VAT and the US prices; they're the same.

[vrapan]

I'm not sure that the difference in pricing is Apple's fault. I don't think there is any sales tax paid in the states; shipping across state lines etc.

I compared UK price from Apple Store less VAT and the US prices; they're the same.

Well I partly agree with you I think that the prices on PBs are not 33% higher. If you buy over the internet - and I mean like Amazon but not Apple Store - you do get charged the state sales tax which can be anything between 5% - 9% with most states being around 8%. So the Price of a PB costs with sales tax in USA 3250 while in UK with an exchange rate of 1.6 costs 3850. That is 600$. However part of it it is attributed to the extra 10% on the price. Both prices without tax come at 2999$ and 3266. So Apple is actually charging 266$ or 166 pounds more. Given that PBs ship in UK from Ireland and in USA from Taiwan shipping is not it. However other sort of red tape in UK could increase the price.

End line monetarily the price is more expensive but not all of it can be atributed to Apple most of the difference is due to the extra 10% tax. Where things go sour is when you enter into the equation PPP. Then especially in poorer countries of EU like Greece the prices look impossible.....

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by thedoc1111
Therefore no need for Panther 64.

Mac OS X 10.4 "Wildcat" will be 64-bit, though.

You need a 64-bit O/S to allow your programs to use more than 4 GiB of RAM.... With a 32-bit O/S, a single program can't use the 8 GiB that the G5 can support.

[dho]

tyson12zoll:

what the %&*@ are you doing in these forums...

If you have a dual 2 shouldn't you be playing quake or solving world hunger or something? D

edit:

AidenShaw:

My understanding is as follows: a 32 bit os can only use 4 gigs of ram by itself, but a 64 bit app running on the same machine is not limited by the Os's 32bitnes and can use all the ram it wants.

someone please correct me if I am wrong

[Freg3000]

Originally posted by dho
tyson12zoll:


AidenShaw:

My understanding is as follows: a 32 bit os can only use 4 gigs of ram by itself, but a 64 bit app running on the same machine is not limited by the Os's 32bitnes and can use all the ram it wants.

someone please correct me if I am wrong

That is my understanding as well.

[Rincewind42]

Originally posted by crazytom
I've heard from a couple of sources that Apple is working with M-Audio to solve this [using two M-Audio cards at once] and it is because of the way Core Audio is written.

I take it your issue is getting the two cards to work in sync with each other (as one device rather than two)? It's not neccessarily a CoreAudio issue, but an issue of device timing. Getting two seperate devices synched isn't a particularly easy task, and CoreAudio was designed specifically to expose as much of the hardware to the programmer as possible while still providing a common, approachable interface to using that hardware. It is possible to use multiple audio devices at once from the same program - I've done it - it's just that the results may or may not be what you expect (due to device drift) and I'm betting the CoreAudio engineers didn't want to add something to the design that would saddle the rest of us with something unpredictable.

All that said, this has been an issue discussed since the beginnings of 10.2. It isn't an easy one to solve. But don't think of Apple as unapproachable on this. Filing bug reports is the quickest way to get their attention to a feature you want, or to helping them determine the priority of a feature that they are working on. Otherwise, they have to guess at priorities.

[Rincewind42]

A 32-bit operating system can give a single program, at most, 4GB of memory. A 64-bit operating system can give a single program, at most, 16 EB of memory. The Mac OS X build that is currently running on the PowerMac G5 (10.2.7) allows each program to access 4GB of RAM. This is because all of the pointers used in such programs are 32 bits. It also allows programs on this machines to use the full width of the G5's registers, and thus manipulate 64-bit integers without penalty.

Q: Why can't we just change the pointer size (to 64-bits) and get 16 EB memory spaces?

A: Because there is more to the change than just your code. Mac OS X (as all operating systems) provides you with a HUGE volume of precompiled code for your program to use. These libraries are necessary for your programs to even start running. And all of these libraries are built (currently) expecting 32-bit pointers. There is no way for these libraries to start dealing in 64-bit pointers without being recompiled.

Q: Ok, so we need to update our libraries. So lets just have them all just work with 64-bit pointers. Problem solved right?

A: No. Unfortunately, if you just change all your libraries to expect 64-bit pointers then your 32-bit programs will break when those libraries return a pointer that is out of range for them. So what you have to do instead is have two different libraries, one that handles 32-bit programs, and one that handles 64-bit programs, this way each kind of program gets the kind of pointers that it expects.

Q: Ok, so we need 2 versions of each library. So lets start cranking. Two weeks tops right?

A: Unfortunately no. When you create such an incredible additional mass of code, you need to test it. And testing it all takes a huge amount of time. It's hardly practical to expect it to happen quickly. Yes, much of Mac OS X was designed to be easily moved from 32 to 64 bits without much difficulty, but there are many edge cases where things don't quite work out of the box, either due to common usage of an API, or exceptional circumstance around that API.

For example, many APIs take a reference constant that is passed to a callback so the callback knows what context it is being called with. Unfortunately for some older APIs these reference constants are defined as 32 bit integers, but common practice has been to use them as pointers. So in moving to a 64 bit memory model, these APIs would need to be redefined to use 64 bit integers AND the programmers using them would need to check their code to make sure that they do the right thing when passing in the pointer (C/C++ doesn't allow you to pass a pointer as an integer without explicitly changing the data type. Code written for passing a 32 bit integer would thus clip your 64 bit pointers).

This is just one of many issues that would cause the testing time of new 64-bit libraries to take a LONG time. And before someone says it, no that doesn't make Carbon implicitly harder to move to 64-bit than Cocoa =). All of the newer, recommended Carbon APIs already use a pointer type for the reference constant instead of an integer :cool: .

Hopefully all this will clear up why it is a difficult task to add support for 64-bit memory spaces to an OS. Hopefully it has also put across that it should not be as difficult a task as it has been for that other operating system.

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by Rincewind42
A 32-bit operating system can give a single program, at most, 4GB of memory. A 64-bit operating system can give a single program, at most, 16 EB of memory. The Mac OS X build that is currently running on the PowerMac G5 (10.2.7) allows each program to access 4GB of RAM. This is because all of the pointers used in such programs are 32 bits. It also allows programs on this machines to use the full width of the G5's registers, and thus manipulate 64-bit integers without penalty.

Q: Why can't we just change the pointer size (to 64-bits) and get 16 EB memory spaces?

A: Because there is more to the change than just your code. Mac OS X (as all operating systems) provides you with a HUGE volume of precompiled code for your program to use. These libraries are necessary for your programs to even start running. And all of these libraries are built (currently) expecting 32-bit pointers. There is no way for these libraries to start dealing in 64-bit pointers without being recompiled.

Q: Ok, so we need to update our libraries. So lets just have them all just work with 64-bit pointers. Problem solved right?

A: No. Unfortunately, if you just change all your libraries to expect 64-bit pointers then your 32-bit programs will break when those libraries return a pointer that is out of range for them. So what you have to do instead is have two different libraries, one that handles 32-bit programs, and one that handles 64-bit programs, this way each kind of program gets the kind of pointers that it expects.

Q: Ok, so we need 2 versions of each library. So lets start cranking. Two weeks tops right?

A: Unfortunately no. When you create such an incredible additional mass of code, you need to test it. And testing it all takes a huge amount of time. It's hardly practical to expect it to happen quickly. Yes, much of Mac OS X was designed to be easily moved from 32 to 64 bits without much difficulty, but there are many edge cases where things don't quite work out of the box, either due to common usage of an API, or exceptional circumstance around that API.

For example, many APIs take a reference constant that is passed to a callback so the callback knows what context it is being called with. Unfortunately for some older APIs these reference constants are defined as 32 bit integers, but common practice has been to use them as pointers. So in moving to a 64 bit memory model, these APIs would need to be redefined to use 64 bit integers AND the programmers using them would need to check their code to make sure that they do the right thing when passing in the pointer (C/C++ doesn't allow you to pass a pointer as an integer without explicitly changing the data type. Code written for passing a 32 bit integer would thus clip your 64 bit pointers).

This is just one of many issues that would cause the testing time of new 64-bit libraries to take a LONG time. And before someone says it, no that doesn't make Carbon implicitly harder to move to 64-bit than Cocoa =). All of the newer, recommended Carbon APIs already use a pointer type for the reference constant instead of an integer :cool: .

Hopefully all this will clear up why it is a difficult task to add support for 64-bit memory spaces to an OS. Hopefully it has also put across that it should not be as difficult a task as it has been for that other operating system.

Snip nothing.

This should be in the FAQ.

Rocketman

[Capt. Obvious]

Originally posted by Freg3000
Ok. Reality check. 10.3 on 10/3 ain't gonna happen.

October 3rd is 6 days away. 6 Days. Although it would be a nice Apple touch, I just don't see it happening.
My best bet is 10-24.
2 weeks is typical RTM-to-shelf lag, and that's actually mass-production @ it's finest. If the date (10/03) was critical, like getting medicine to sick natives (which, BTW, this ain't), then a big (read: expensive) push could be made to get something on the shelves - just hope you're one of the lucky 3 in your town....

Seriously, from the sounds of things, it wouldn't surprise me if the GM was declared prior to 7B90.

'Course, it also wouldn't surprise me if Apple put enough rev's on it to release 7C01, just to mess with us. :D

[Capt. Obvious]

Originally posted by Rincewind42
A 32-bit operating system can give a single program, at most, 4GB of memory....

( remainder snipped )
Excellent work, sir!

Still, I seem to recall Apple announcing that Panther will be 32-bit not 64-bit, AND that the G5s would run a 64-bit RAM enabler (call it what you will).

I only mention this because your excellent post seemed to say that this wouldn't, couldn't or shouldn't be done yet. Or are you saying that the "enabler" is just some mutation of double-precision-style longword fakery?

[PHGN]

Is is not posible to announce the product and not have it actualy avalible right then and there? Not that Apple would ever dream of doing something like that. 2003.10.03 would make a great anouncement date, with delivery starting starting in time for the new Apple store's opening.

Further, if this does happen, can I go ahead and order my new Powerbook after the announcement and expect a set of 10.3 disks to arrive at some later date?

[bretm]

Originally posted by Burrell
No report I've read yet is stating the obvious. Apple is trouncing Microsoft on timely & advanced & stable OS updates in an underlying multi-decade well developed stable OS kernal in a 64 bit multi-processor form. 10.2 comes out & then 10.3 is ready in less than a year.

It's already been more than a year since 10.2 came out. It actually arrived a month earlier than planned. It came out in less than a year aftter 10.1. I think Jag actually sneaked in in late August.

[dho]

Rincewind42:

great explanation

next time something like this comes up I will let you post first;)

[Capt. Obvious]

Originally posted by PHGN
Is is not posible to announce the product and not have it actualy avalible right then and there?

2003.10.03 would make a great anouncement date, with delivery starting starting in time for the new Apple store's opening.
Sure it's possible, but you can be that selective only if you have a finished product in your hands, ready to go. If your product's still in development - even in these late stages - you must either wait for it to complete, or give a date SO far in advance that you're (almost) certain to make it.

{quote]Further, if this does happen, can I go ahead and order my new Powerbook after the announcement and expect a set of 10.3 disks to arrive at some later date? [/QUOTE]
Watch this space for further details....

[vrapan]

urther, if this does happen, can I go ahead and order my new Powerbook after the announcement and expect a set of 10.3 disks to arrive at some later date?

What they did with the Jag was that everyone that purchased a mac four weeks before the announcement of Mac was getting it for a shipping charge of 19.99 I think. Not free but still 110$ less.

[Thorben]

Originally posted by iHack
prices that don't subsidise US buyers - check

Let's compare a stock 17" Powerbook:
US Apple store (online): $ 2999,--
And to name few Euro prices (online):
German store � 3479,-- (VAT 16%) = US $ 3995
UK store GBP 2399,-- (VAT 17,5) = US $ 3983,--
Dutch store: � 3568,-- (VAT 19%) = US $ 4097,--
Belgian store � 3629,-- (VAT 21%) = US $ 4167,--

That's a European mark-up of about 33%. I checked G5's too - they take a 25% mark-up. Cross-Atlantic shipping must be very expensive... :mad:

Hey, when I give myself a budget of $ 1100,00 I can buy a ticket for me and my wife, from Amsterdam to New-York and check into a nice hotel for a few days. When I buy my PowerBook while I there, I can still save money! Seems like a nice way to surprise her :) .

BTW, Japanese store 379800,-- (VAT ?) US $ 3397,-- equals + 13% Hey, what would a ticket to Tokyo cost...

M.

Sorry, couldn't check where are you from, but what you´ve posted iss totaly wrong.

I´m living in Germany and just ordered a new Powerbook 15". I've paid 2650 Euros.

In all european countries the prices are already WITH taxes. So its not + 16% but - 16%. That´s quiet a difference.

I think in the USA you are not paing taxes when ordering online, are you? That´s different in germany. We have to.

PS: you said some 10,000,000 in the netherlands are living under the sea.
I don´t speak english very well - as you can see - but do you mean multipel 10 million people? you know there are only 16 million people living in the netherlands? *g*

-------------
ohh, sry, just read your post more carefully. you don't put the taxes on them. just the ¤ - $ difference. But without our 16% tax the prices are the same.

[vrapan]

Thorben

He was talking about the 17" model not the 15" and the 2999$ price is without tac but you can compare the 2599$ or the 1999$ 15" if you want you will find a sizeable difference...

[iHack]

Originally posted by Thorben
Sorry, couldn't check where are you from, but what you´ve posted iss totaly wrong.

I´m living in Germany and just ordered a new Powerbook 15". I've paid 2650 Euros.

In all european countries the prices are already WITH taxes. So its not + 16% but - 16%. That´s quiet a difference.

I think in the USA you are not paing taxes when ordering online, are you? That´s different in germany. We have to.

Prices are for the 17" powerbook w/ superdrive. I'm from The Netherlands, in a city just east of Amsterdam.
I checked the mentioned online Apple stores before I posted, and took the exchange rate from x-rates.com. You're right, I ignored the lack of US VAT. The Euro prices without VAT are the same as the dollar prices, except that € 1 = $ 1,146 as of today (has been as high as $ 1,19). This is difference of 14,6%, which fluctuates with the exchanges rates.
VAT in Germany is 16%, I believe, which explains the other half of the mark-up. As a tourist you can buy tax free in the US, and you can't in your own country, so I think it's fair to compare the prices I did (although it does exaggerate the difference a bit for dramatic purposes)

PS: you said some 10,000,000 in the netherlands are living under the sea.
I don´t speak english very well - as you can see - but do you mean multipel 10 million people? you know there are only 16 million people living in the netherlands? *g*

Just water management trivia. :) Some 2/3 of the Dutch population, which indeed is about 16 million, lives in areas that are lower than mean sea level (we don't really live under the sea). Actually, 2/3 of the country would be flooded twice daily at high tide, if it weren't for the dikes and dunes. The highest population densities are in the west, which is the lowest. In Rotterdam, the lowest point is about 7.5 below mean sea level. In my basement, where I'm sitting right now, floor level is more or less equal to the water level on the other side of the wall, which I know is 5,7 m below mean sea level. Any water surplus (e.g. from rain) is pumped out to sea with huge pumping stations. The one closest to my house pumps 3100m3 per minute, at peak capacity. Thank god for solid dikes and big pumps! :D

[edit: changed the pumping capacity and added a sentence]

[bennetsaysargh]

Originally posted by PHGN
[BFurther, if this does happen, can I go ahead and order my new Powerbook after the announcement and expect a set of 10.3 disks to arrive at some later date? [/B]
usually, i think if it's already been said when it will be released and if you buy it on that day, it may already have it installed.

[Thorben]

sure, I know he was talking about the 17inch model.
But i paid 2650 Euros on the 15inch model and if you take the 16 percent taxes off the german price for the powerbook and put the 8 percent us taxes to this you get 2625 Euros. That's only a very small difference.

[vrapan]

was it the base model you bought for 2650 euros? i mean the 1GHz model?

[WM.]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Educational discounts and high-speed internet are the only redeeming qualities of going to college, let me tell you.
The Coug Factor strikes again...

:D

WM

[magitekkn]

Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
usually, i think if it's already been said when it will be released and if you buy it on that day, it may already have it installed.

for what it's worth, I received my PB 667 DVI more than a week before the ship/release date for jaguar and it still came with 10.2 preinstalled.

[BWhaler]

Originally posted by iHack
prices that don't subsidise US buyers - check

Let's compare a stock 17" Powerbook:
US Apple store (online): $ 2999,--
And to name few Euro prices (online):
German store € 3479,-- (VAT 16%) = US $ 3995
UK store GBP 2399,-- (VAT 17,5) = US $ 3983,--
Dutch store: € 3568,-- (VAT 19%) = US $ 4097,--
Belgian store € 3629,-- (VAT 21%) = US $ 4167,--

That's a European mark-up of about 33%. I checked G5's too - they take a 25% mark-up. Cross-Atlantic shipping must be very expensive... :mad:

Hey, when I give myself a budget of $ 1100,00 I can buy a ticket for me and my wife, from Amsterdam to New-York and check into a nice hotel for a few days. When I buy my PowerBook while I there, I can still save money! Seems like a nice way to surprise her :) .

BTW, Japanese store 379800,-- (VAT ?) US $ 3397,-- equals + 13% Hey, what would a ticket to Tokyo cost...

M.

There's a few flaws here:

1. If you are going to base your numbers on price differences, you need to either put in US taxes or take out European taxes. It'll make the price differences much smaller.

2. The cost of doing business for a US company in the EU is higher than selling to US customers. Factor that in, and the price delta become miniscule.

3. You're treating the prices as absolute numbers when in fact they are based on different currencies. Factor that in to your calculations, and again, the margin in small.

I agree with the general sentiment that Apple needs to do more for non-US customers. They are 50% of Apple's installed base, and they are certainly not treated that way.

But let's keep the gripes rational. It's always comical when one reads things like, "Apple sucks because they won't release iTMS in the EU," when it is the EU laws preventing it. Your comment that EU buyers are subsidizing US buyers fall into that line of thinking.

[iHack]

Originally posted by BWhaler
There's a few flaws here:

1. If you are going to base your numbers on price differences, you need to either put in US taxes or take out European taxes. It'll make the price differences much smaller.

When I would buy in the US I can buy tax free as a tourist, when I buy from my local apple store, I have to pay VAT. The VAT account for about half the difference.

2. The cost of doing business for a US company in the EU is higher than selling to US customers. Factor that in, and the price delta become miniscule.

What causes the difference in the cost of doing business? I'm just asking because I would like to know


I agree with the general sentiment that Apple needs to do more for non-US customers. They are 50% of Apple's installed base, and they are certainly not treated that way.

But let's keep the gripes rational. It's always comical when one reads things like, "Apple sucks because they won't release iTMS in the EU," when it is the EU laws preventing it. Your comment that EU buyers are subsidizing US buyers fall into that line of thinking.

[Rincewind42]

Originally posted by Capt. Obvious
Excellent work, sir!

Still, I seem to recall Apple announcing that Panther will be 32-bit not 64-bit, AND that the G5s would run a 64-bit RAM enabler (call it what you will).

I only mention this because your excellent post seemed to say that this wouldn't, couldn't or shouldn't be done yet. Or are you saying that the "enabler" is just some mutation of double-precision-style longword fakery?

All versions of Mac OS X have been able to handle more than 4GB of memory in the kernel. This is necessary for the virtual memory system to work in the first place (imagine 4 running programs, each using 1 byte more than 1 GB of memory - that by itself requires being able to handle greater than 32-bit address space at some point).

The difference is that with the G5 we have the first system controller that is capable of working with more than 2GB of actual RAM. So what's new with the G5 is the ability for the hardware to address more than 2GB of real RAM.
I suspect support for that is already built into 10.2.7, but unless someone wishes to give me a G5 loaded up with 8GB of RAM to test, I can't say for sure :D . So while you can't have 64-bit application memory spaces yet, you can certainly use any and all of the RAM that you can install in those G5 boxes, just not with one application (easily).

[pianojoe]

Originally posted by groovebuster
Be careful with blaming everything just on Apple. M-Audio never really got their act together in writing actually flawlessly working drivers for their hardware under Mac OS X.
groovebuster

Amen!

[vrapan]

There's a few flaws here:

1. If you are going to base your numbers on price differences, you need to either put in US taxes or take out European taxes. It'll make the price differences much smaller.

2. The cost of doing business for a US company in the EU is higher than selling to US customers. Factor that in, and the price delta become miniscule.

3. You're treating the prices as absolute numbers when in fact they are based on different currencies. Factor that in to your calculations, and again, the margin in small.

I agree with the general sentiment that Apple needs to do more for non-US customers. They are 50% of Apple's installed base, and they are certainly not treated that way.

But let's keep the gripes rational. It's always comical when one reads things like, "Apple sucks because they won't release iTMS in the EU," when it is the EU laws preventing it. Your comment that EU buyers are subsidizing US buyers fall into that line of thinking.

1. If you check my post I did put the tax on but you have to acknowledge that in USA you can get it tax free online as I said amazon. the difference is around 600$ with the US tax at 8%.

2. Apple hardly does bussiness per se in the EU. They do not have a store presense only a web site they have as far as I know only one assembly in Ireland and they only have some tech support which much of it is done through by outsourcing and for which they DO collect a heavy premium because if you check UK and US Applecare prices the difference is ridiculous.

3. EXACTLY the Euro presently is at 1.15 per dollar so it means even if numerically the prices were exactly the same then Apple collects 15% more dollars on a EU sale than on the US sale. So every single extra "numerical" euro paid in EU or UK is a Euro too much. UK currency has been at 1.6 for long time but Apple still seems to be working with a 1.5 exchange rate.

4. As about the iTunes EU legislation on copyrights is less strict than the US legislation. So this is hardly a reason for a delayed iTunes. MS got around an EU music store so EU legislation can hardly be blamed although Apple does not have the whole blame there either......


Before you try and defend pricing policies please get an economics 101 course please and if you dont feel like going back to school just get your facts straight

[jer2665]

quick question, lets say hypothetically that it does come out October 24th. That's the ship date of my g5, how probably do you think it is of me getting that installed? or a coupon, that'll be kinda b.s. if i dont get it and i get screwed, when i might as well cancell it, and rebuy a new one, that will get a later est ship date.

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by Rincewind42
A 32-bit operating system can give a single program, at most, 4GB of memory. A 64-bit operating system can give a single program, at most, 16 EB of memory. The Mac OS X build that is currently running on the PowerMac G5 (10.2.7) allows each program to access 4GB of RAM. This is because all of the pointers used in such programs are 32 bits. It also allows programs on this machines to use the full width of the G5's registers, and thus manipulate 64-bit integers without penalty.

Q: Why can't we just change the pointer size (to 64-bits) and get 16 EB memory spaces?

A: Because there is more to the change than just your code. Mac OS X (as all operating systems) provides you with a HUGE volume of precompiled code for your program to use. These libraries are necessary for your programs to even start running. And all of these libraries are built (currently) expecting 32-bit pointers. There is no way for these libraries to start dealing in 64-bit pointers without being recompiled.

Q: Ok, so we need to update our libraries. So lets just have them all just work with 64-bit pointers. Problem solved right?

A: No. Unfortunately, if you just change all your libraries to expect 64-bit pointers then your 32-bit programs will break when those libraries return a pointer that is out of range for them. So what you have to do instead is have two different libraries, one that handles 32-bit programs, and one that handles 64-bit programs, this way each kind of program gets the kind of pointers that it expects.

Q: Ok, so we need 2 versions of each library. So lets start cranking. Two weeks tops right?

A: Unfortunately no. When you create such an incredible additional mass of code, you need to test it. And testing it all takes a huge amount of time. It's hardly practical to expect it to happen quickly. Yes, much of Mac OS X was designed to be easily moved from 32 to 64 bits without much difficulty, but there are many edge cases where things don't quite work out of the box, either due to common usage of an API, or exceptional circumstance around that API.

For example, many APIs take a reference constant that is passed to a callback so the callback knows what context it is being called with. Unfortunately for some older APIs these reference constants are defined as 32 bit integers, but common practice has been to use them as pointers. So in moving to a 64 bit memory model, these APIs would need to be redefined to use 64 bit integers AND the programmers using them would need to check their code to make sure that they do the right thing when passing in the pointer (C/C++ doesn't allow you to pass a pointer as an integer without explicitly changing the data type. Code written for passing a 32 bit integer would thus clip your 64 bit pointers).

This is just one of many issues that would cause the testing time of new 64-bit libraries to take a LONG time. And before someone says it, no that doesn't make Carbon implicitly harder to move to 64-bit than Cocoa =). All of the newer, recommended Carbon APIs already use a pointer type for the reference constant instead of an integer :cool: .

Hopefully all this will clear up why it is a difficult task to add support for 64-bit memory spaces to an OS. Hopefully it has also put across that it should not be as difficult a task as it has been for that other operating system.


Ouch... sucks to be an Apple coder right now... this sounds about as painful as what MS is having to do with VPC (go through and find all the places they used psuedo-little-endian mode and change it to use a swap instead).

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by iHack
prices that don't subsidise US buyers - check

IT'S AN AMERICAN COMPANY!

You don't hear me whining about the Germans paying less for a BMW, or about the Japanese paying less for everything Sony makes!

Besides, it seems that your silly VAT makes the difference to you. So blame your own governments.

Originally posted by mistersquid
Either you need to go to a new college or you should quit going.

There is no university that can satisfy me. And I unfortunately "need" a college education to get a good career. It's a cartel, I tell you.

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Mac OS X 10.4 "Wildcat" will be 64-bit, though.

You need a 64-bit O/S to allow your programs to use more than 4 GiB of RAM.... With a 32-bit O/S, a single program can't use the 8 GiB that the G5 can support.

Wildcat, eh? Somehow I doubt that's the real code name. It should instead be an actual feline species.

Originally posted by vrapan
2. Apple hardly does bussiness per se in the EU. They do not have a store presense only a web site they have as far as I know only one assembly in Ireland and they only have some tech support which much of it is done through by outsourcing and for which they DO collect a heavy premium because if you check UK and US Applecare prices the difference is ridiculous.

By that criteria, Apple didn't hardly even do business in America until a few years ago.

Can you buy a Mac in Europe? Apple does business in Europe. Can you buy a Mac in North Korea? Not too easily, because Apple doesn't do business there.

Originally posted by vrapan
3. EXACTLY the Euro presently is at 1.15 per dollar so it means even if numerically the prices were exactly the same then Apple collects 15% more dollars on a EU sale than on the US sale. So every single extra "numerical" euro paid in EU or UK is a Euro too much. UK currency has been at 1.6 for long time but Apple still seems to be working with a 1.5 exchange rate.

I'm sure Apple wants to hire staff just to check the exchange rates every morning and adjust prices accordingly.

Originally posted by vrapan
4. As about the iTunes EU legislation on copyrights is less strict than the US legislation. So this is hardly a reason for a delayed iTunes. MS got around an EU music store so EU legislation can hardly be blamed although Apple does not have the whole blame there either......

Microsoft is willing to allow stricter DRM than Apple is.

Originally posted by vrapan
Before you try and defend pricing policies please get an economics 101 course please and if you dont feel like going back to school just get your facts straight

I'm glad to report that Econ 101 is another one of the redeeming qualities of going to college. So is getting an A in it, so far.

[vrapan]

IT'S AN AMERICAN COMPANY!

You don't hear me whining about the Germans paying less for a BMW, or about the Japanese paying less for everything Sony makes

And you shouldn't because BMWs are not cheaper in Germany than in USA and Sony products cost about the same as they do in Japan.



By that criteria, Apple didn't hardly even do business in America until a few years ago.

Can you buy a Mac in Europe? Apple does business in Europe. Can you buy a Mac in North Korea? Not too easily, because Apple doesn't do business there.


I am aware of that but Apple as far as I am aware is taxed in the USA by the US taxing laws right? My point was that Apple hardly has any substantial number of emplyees in EU apart form the Irish assembly and some tech support most of which it outsources. So Apple really bears very small burden of red tape in EU. By no bussiness I meant they hardly own or operate something in the EU where EU laws would make that something more expensive to operate than in the US. Their bulk of staff - plants - headquarters is in US - EU business law hardly affects them.

I'm sure Apple wants to hire staff just to check the exchange rates every morning and adjust prices accordingly.


If Apple sells half their Macs outside US then yes they do have enough people to check exchange rates. My point was not that however. My point was that in the price equation you have to use that variable as well. And as of right now for the same numerical value EU citizens pay 15% more dollars.

Microsoft is willing to allow stricter DRM than Apple is.


Sure enough but my point was that EU law did not stop MS and EU law does not stop Apple so he should not blame EU law.
Feel free to blame Record Lables practices.

I'm glad to report that Econ 101 is another one of the redeeming qualities of going to college. So is getting an A in it, so far.

Congratulations for your success and I hope you will learn also about PPP if you haven't already. In terms of PPP most european countries pay a premium of 30% - 80% on their Apple products.

[Rincewind42]

Originally posted by Catfish_Man
Ouch... sucks to be an Apple coder right now... this sounds about as painful as what MS is having to do with VPC (go through and find all the places they used psuedo-little-endian mode and change it to use a swap instead).

In general, it's much less painful than it sounds. If you use pointer variables (which is the case for most code most of the time) then you don't have a problem. There are plenty of cases where you can blow yourself up moving from 32-bit to 64-bit, but all of these cases are things that are Discouraged (with a capital D!) by the language.

[nascarcm24]

BMWs would be cheaper in Germany, because you don't have to pay for frieght, and smogging it, (especially in California)

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by vrapan
And you shouldn't because BMWs are not cheaper in Germany than in USA and Sony products cost about the same as they do in Japan.

With BMW you are correct. With Sony, my check was hindered by my illiteracy in Japanese. However, I couldn't help but notice that Europeans have a wider selection of German sports cars than we Americans. Stick that in your iTMS and smoke it.

Originally posted by vrapan
I am aware of that but Apple as far as I am aware is taxed in the USA by the US taxing laws right? My point was that Apple hardly has any substantial number of emplyees in EU apart form the Irish assembly and some tech support most of which it outsources. So Apple really bears very small burden of red tape in EU. By no bussiness I meant they hardly own or operate something in the EU where EU laws would make that something more expensive to operate than in the US. Their bulk of staff - plants - headquarters is in US - EU business law hardly affects them.

To some extent, but they still have to pay corporate income tax in the EU for the business they do there.

Originally posted by vrapan
If Apple sells half their Macs outside US then yes they do have enough people to check exchange rates. My point was not that however. My point was that in the price equation you have to use that variable as well. And as of right now for the same numerical value EU citizens pay 15% more dollars.



Originally posted by vrapan
Sure enough but my point was that EU law did not stop MS and EU law does not stop Apple so he should not blame EU law. Feel free to blame Record Lables practices.

Is Microsoft's music store even available in Europe yet, or just announced? I don't think it's open for business even in the US. If MS's music store isn't open for business in the EU, then they're at the same stage Apple is.

Either way, my point is, it will take Apple a longer time to reach an agreement in either place because of the DRM issue. The DRM issue is a constant in both the US and the EU, so the differences between US law and EU law are the main differentiating factor. The EU is taking longer, therefore, EU law is more difficult to negotiate through.

[vrapan]

With BMW you are correct. With Sony, my check was hindered by my illiteracy in Japanese. However, I couldn't help but notice that Europeans have a wider selection of German sports cars than we Americans. Stick that in your iTMS and smoke it.


I am not going to go any further than this. We have more German sports cars available ie more choice on how to configure a BMW? Ok so what? I am not comparing what Europe has more of or US has more of. And who cares if we have more BMW if you have cheaper ones? But that is way beyond the point I wanted to make and I think I made it clear enough and this is my last post on that:

Apple's product's one way or the other are more expensive in Europe any measure or yardstick you want to use they come up by an extra 15% in the best case to a good 35% in US$ terms.(PPP not taken into the account of course cause then everything is more expensive in Europe). And where I was leading it is that there is not a good enough reason for that. Especially given the EU favourable exchange rate of the past 5 months...

And to bring your point in I wouldn't mind if I couldn't configure the 15" PB as long as I could buy it for the same price as the US does..... So one day after you have graduated and you would like that 5series or whatever you will be happy not to have all the options but have paid a month of your salary less for it....

[danielgrenell]

ok, it's a little off topic, but macrumors hasn't updated in a while, and when we're getting this close to game time, it's unacceptable!

[The Ancients]

Originally posted by bidge
Yeah it's my birthday then too. Woohoo

Apple missed my B'day (September 14th), but oh well on that day we did get Woosh!!! (http://www.woosh.com)

[pianojoe]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac

You don't hear me whining about the Germans paying less for a BMW, or about the Japanese paying less for everything Sony makes! Hell, we WON the war, WE should pay less! :)



Extremely funny, har har. Or were you serious after all? God bless America.

[Photorun]

Hell, we WON the war, WE should pay less!

Uhhh... which war? Microsoft? Iraq? Terrorism? WWII? Just curious as to where this tasteless comment's basis is coming from.

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by Rocketman

That screenshot says "duale" processor. So either it is a fake or has a known bug (easter egg) or dozens of people at Apple and in seed programs cannot spell.

Originally posted by arn
...or were using a non-english install.

arn

Everything else on that screen is in North American english.

Rocketman

[Phil Of Mac]

null

[neverfade]

I am going to be placing my order for a G5 very soon. Does anyone know if Panther will be installed on the machines? And if it isn't, will there be some sort of a rebate enclosed for the purchase?

[iHack]

Originally posted by Photorun
Uhhh... which war? Microsoft? Iraq? Terrorism? WWII? Just curious as to where this tasteless comment's basis is coming from.

Yeah, the list continues, Granada, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Korea, Cuba, Iraq, Iraq the sequel, on Drugs, etc, etc ?

Hmmmm. Weapons of mass destruction, willing to use them (inc. testing them on their own civilians), not complying with UN resolutions, nationalistic, shown their aggression to other nations repeatedly.
Pop quiz: which country does this apply to:
1 US of A
2 Israel
3 Russia
4 all of the above.

Sorry for going of topic so much. The 'we won the war' remarks really ticks me off. Especially coming from someone who was only just leaving kindergarten in Gulf War I.
BTW my country (Netherlands) was liberated by Canadians and Brits.

M.

[Phil Of Mac]

I think you're placing far too much importance in a comment that I meant sarcastically and was not in any way related to the main point I was making.

If it really bothers you that much, I'll go back and edit it out. One should always listen to John Cleese: "Don't mention the war!"

But for God's sake, get a sense of humor. It's not like I get bent out of shape whenever some Canadian jokes about 1812.

[iHack]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
I think you're placing far too much importance in a comment that I meant sarcastically and was not in any way related to the main point I was making.

If it really bothers you that much, I'll go back and edit it out. One should always listen to John Cleese: "Don't mention the war!"

But for God's sake, get a sense of humor. It's not like I get bent out of shape whenever some Canadian jokes about 1812.

But for God's sake get a sense of good taste. War is not a laughing matter. Especially of the kind where millions are killed.

M.

And 1812, wasn't that something to do with Napoleon (that short French guy)?

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by iHack
And 1812, wasn't that something to do with Napoleon (that short French guy)?

The Napoleonic Wars were going on around 1812, but the War of 1812 (as we call it here in the US) was a war between the US and the UK, during which the US unsuccessfully invaded Canada and the British burned down Washington, DC. I think it's a source of national pride for Canada that the United States has never successfully invaded them. In any case, the War of 1812 ended in an utter stalemate.

In any case, my remark about "we should pay lower prices for German and Japanese goods because we won the war" was meant as an ironic remark about the fact that the US deals with Japan and Germany in a manner that has nothing to do with the war. So I wasn't technically joking about the war itself, I was simply joking about the uncharacteristically friendly and mutually prosperous post-war relations between the US and our former enemies.

It was never my intent to offend anyone, but it appears that my words have been interpreted differently than I intended, and I apologize for that.

[T.Rex]

Originally posted by Rocketman
Everything else on that screen is in North American english.

Rocketman

Actually, there is no such thing as "North American english" - there is Canadian english (pretty much the same as true UK english), and bastardized American english. ;)

After stumbling upon this site for the first time via a link, I couldn't understand why I was getting a 404 error after typing in www.macrumours.com (note the "u") when I tried to access it the second time! :D

[Romanesq]

And we'd like to have it about now. Wonder what my chances are with a 15" on order to be shipped on or before 10/3. I'm referring to some coupon program not in fact panther outright.

As far as our fine Dutch footballers, I wasn completely unaware that the Canadiens were running operations in Europe with the Brits in its liberation.

As for the reference to Gemany. Tackless and tasteless. I mean, the poor guys have Schroeder which is a tad better than the other old European state with no foreign policy: France.

If Chirac was not in office, he'd be in jail for selling out the country. Must have been watching Bill Clinton closely for lessons on selling out. Chirac sold to many countries including Iraq. Clinton, only one country we know of: China.

Now if we go off topic, let's mix it up.

How many resolutions does a country need to be threatened with before the Security Council does ... nothing?:p

[Phil Of Mac]

I think at this point I'm just going to support wholeheartedly the Swiss foreign policy.

[T.Rex]

Originally posted by Romanesq
As far as our fine Dutch footballers, I wasn completely unaware that the Canadiens were running operations in Europe with the Brits in its liberation.


Heck ya, we were in there from day one just like good loyal British subjects! No waiting around until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour! Sept. 1939 - 2 years before America entered the war. :cool:

We Canucks were also side-by-side with you guys and the Brits on D-Day, taking Juno beach by ourselves, and being one of the first to complete their objectives. Also, as iHack noted Canadian troops were made up the largest contingent of the force liberating the Netherlands. To this day, every year the Dutch government sends tens of thousands of tulips that are planted in the national gardens around Ottawa as thanks.

...As for pricing, Apple is not too far off up here. The only problem is that their exchange rate adjustment tends to lag a little, as lately the Can. $ has (or at least was) going up in value relative to the US$. Other than that, and the fact that most of Canada is hit with a rediculous 15% sales tax (except oil rich Alberta which only has 7% sales tax) their pricing is not that far off, espcially if you are like me and get the education pricing - $2600 (after $300 rebate) including tax for one of the new 12" PB, 10GB iPod and free Canon i450 printer. :D That works out to about US$1870. Plus I'm selling my old 5giger for $200 so that only sweetens the deal!

[nacl99]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
I think at this point I'm just going to support wholeheartedly the Swiss foreign policy.


Appeasement, yeah thats the way to make the world safe...

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by nacl99
Appeasement, yeah thats the way to make the world safe...

Appeasement? Nah, armed neutrality. Hanging out in the hills armed to the teeth and running hotels and banks. That's the way to go.

[nacl99]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Appeasement? Nah, armed neutrality. Hanging out in the hills armed to the teeth and running hotels and banks. That's the way to go.

Sounds better when you put it that way...

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by T.Rex
...As for pricing, Apple is not too far off up here. The only problem is that their exchange rate adjustment tends to lag a little, as lately the Can. $ has (or at least was) going up in value relative to the US$. Other than that, and the fact that most of Canada is hit with a rediculous 15% sales tax (except oil rich Alberta which only has 7% sales tax) their pricing is not that far off, espcially if you are like me and get the education pricing - $2600 (after $300 rebate) including tax for one of the new 12" PB, 10GB iPod and free Canon i450 printer. :D That works out to about US$1870. Plus I'm selling my old 5giger for $200 so that only sweetens the deal!

Of course you get good pricing. You won the War of 1812! We have to give you good prices!

[WM.]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
...Apple didn't hardly even do business in America until a few years ago.
Nonsense. In the early days everything was done in the US, of course, so I'd say that qualifies as "doing business". And I've been to the Apple campus (about five months ago), and I'd say there was quite a lot of business being done there--no manufacturing, I'm sure, but engineering, R&D, sales, marketing, etc., and presumably The Steve himself, along with the rest of the executives, spends most of his Apple time there.

(The unfortunate thing about One Infinite Loop is that there's nothing for a random visitor to do there aside from check out the company store--which probably was a lot cooler when there were no retail stores, but now one's opened up about two miles that way -----> as I type this, so the Apple Retail Experience™ is pretty close at hand now...)

WM

[VicMacs]

7B80 out in torrents...

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by WM.
Nonsense. In the early days everything was done in the US, of course, so I'd say that qualifies as "doing business". And I've been to the Apple campus (about five months ago), and I'd say there was quite a lot of business being done there--no manufacturing, I'm sure, but engineering, R&D, sales, marketing, etc., and presumably The Steve himself, along with the rest of the executives, spends most of his Apple time there.

You have just won the "taking a remark out of context" award.

Congratulations!

The poster I was replying to said that since Europe had no Apple Stores, Apple therefore didn't do business in Europe. My point was that Apple didn't have any retail stores in the US until a couple years ago, so it was a bad criteria to use. Apple is, of course, an American company, so they do do business in the US, and always have.

[dho]

VicMacs:

that was quick this time. 1 day to get from macrumors to the "kick@$$" site

[Innagoddadavida]

Originally posted by iHack
BTW my country (Netherlands) was liberated by CANADIANS and Brits.
M.

And now we pause for a shameless flag-waving opportunity
Yeaaahh Canada!!!

We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming...

:D

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by iHack
prices that don't subsidise US buyers - check
Oh yeah I forgot about that one. Silly me. But you know, I live in rip-off England (even worse... in super-expensive London), so I don't even notice anymore.


Hey, when I give myself a budget of $ 1100,00 I can buy a ticket for me and my wife, from Amsterdam to New-York and check into a nice hotel for a few days. When I buy my PowerBook while I there, I can still save money! Seems like a nice way to surprise her :) .
Even better: if you friends or family there, get them to order one online from Macmall or something, so they get it without VAT. If you buy it off a NY reseller, you'll have to pay 8.5% sales tax (is it still 8.5% or has it gone up?). Then the only thing you have to do is buy a dutch keyboard layout from Apple (should be around €75), if there is such a thing.

[BobbyBox]

prices that don't subsidise US buyers - check

Let's compare a stock 17" Powerbook:
US Apple store (online): $ 2999,--
And to name few Euro prices (online):
German store € 3479,-- (VAT 16%) = US $ 3995
UK store GBP 2399,-- (VAT 17,5) = US $ 3983,--
Dutch store: € 3568,-- (VAT 19%) = US $ 4097,--
Belgian store € 3629,-- (VAT 21%) = US $ 4167,--

That's a European mark-up of about 33%. I checked G5's too - they take a 25% mark-up. Cross-Atlantic shipping must be very expensive...

Hey, when I give myself a budget of $ 1100,00 I can buy a ticket for me and my wife, from Amsterdam to New-York and check into a nice hotel for a few days. When I buy my PowerBook while I there, I can still save money! Seems like a nice way to surprise her .

BTW, Japanese store 379800,-- (VAT ?) US $ 3397,-- equals + 13% Hey, what would a ticket to Tokyo cost...



Its very simple.....the factory that makes the pound sign "£" on the keyboard is staffed by Umpa Lumpas! And they are very very expensive to keep! all that chocolate........finest belgian stuff mind...none of that hersheys rubbish! (irony is that the stalwart of UK chocolate, Cadburys has just bought Hersheys......so maybe they will change the taste...)

Oh and they make the Yen key and the Euro key :-)

[iHack]

Originally posted by NicoMan
snip.
Then the only thing you have to do is buy a dutch keyboard layout from Apple (should be around €75), if there is such a thing.

The physical keyboard lay-out is the same as the US/international. Only have to change some settings to allow for diacritical characters (we use the ¨and ´, the first to mark separate syllables where confusion may occur, the second to add stress if that's what it's called). This typically is done in software, but I'm not sure OSX needs it. My Imac and PB had Dutch OSX pre-installed (of preïnstalled, in the Dutch way).

I'm convinced that you can get your VAT back if you buy at the right stores - you have to 'check your stuff out' at the airport to be refunded. As a consequence, you're supposed to paid duties when entering your own country. But if you send all paperwork etc. to yourself buy mail, the customs officer has no indication that you just bought the stuff you're carrying.

M.

[whooleytoo]

Originally posted by vrapan
2. Apple hardly does bussiness per se in the EU. They do not have a store presense only a web site they have as far as I know only one assembly in Ireland and they only have some tech support which much of it is done through by outsourcing and for which they DO collect a heavy premium because if you check UK and US Applecare prices the difference is ridiculous.

Apple have a large sales and tech support call centre in Cork, as far as I'm aware, none of it's outsourced (unless it's changed recently). They also do a lot of localization, plus both hardware and software testing. They used to do a lot of development (I think a lot of the Dock was done there), but I don't think they do any longer.

Mike.

[SiliconAddict]

Why the heck does Apple play these last minute games with OS releases? Love em or hate em MS sets a release date for new OS releases months in advance and the only time they push back releases date is usually when its more then a year from being released. Apple seems to have the more laid back approach of "we'll get it to you when we get it to you" method. Which is fine but it appears to drive Mac users nuts.

Maybe its just me but Apple software development\release seem like a fly by the seat of your pants, shove it out the door 10 seconds after a new build kinda thing. *shrugs* I suppose its the end results that matter. Its just that playing these guessing games with something as pettily as a simple release date sucks.


PS- Someone stated that MS removed features prior to releasing the gold code. In my experience with WINNT/2K/XP they have NEVER done this. I’ve gotten my hands on beta code of all of these OSs and a few others and can honestly say that anything that hits RC status gets shipped.

[hayesk]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Why the heck does Apple play these last minute games with OS releases? Love em or hate em MS sets a release date for new OS releases months in advance and the only time they push back releases date is usually when its more then a year from being released. Apple seems to have the more laid back approach of "we'll get it to you when we get it to you" method.

Because MS ships OSes with more bugs in it. They may release it when they say, but they don't necessarily finish it when they say they will.

[Rower_CPU]

Apple has always said "by the end of the year" for the Panther release. How is that "fly by the seat of your pants"?

They should be done in a couple of weeks. If you had any idea of what goes on in the developer/seed programs you'd change your tune in a hurry. ;)

[chicagoboy]

I recently bought a G5 and was told by the sales guy that the software upgrade coupons in the box (there are 3) would entitle me to a free Panther upgrade when it comes out. Is this true? Could someone email me and let me know.

chicagoboy
jdrosen@hotmail.com

[crazytom]

Originally posted by chicagoboy
I recently bought a G5 and was told by the sales guy that the software upgrade coupons in the box (there are 3) would entitle me to a free Panther upgrade when it comes out. Is this true? Could someone email me and let me know.

chicagoboy
jdrosen@hotmail.com

I've always wondered about those software upgrade coupons....I've searched high and low for some direction on how to use them, but have never found any....

[Rincewind42]

Originally posted by VicMacs
7B80 out in torrents...

Maybe this will prove that it isn't leaking via general ADC, since us Select members haven't seen it yet :(

[MacQuest]

Panther within the month. Yeah boy!! :D

[MacSlut]

7B80 is showing "Dual" not "Duale". This is looking very close to being complete, and worth the upgrade price.

I haven't seen this mentioned before, but DVD Player now allows you to play on any monitor in a multiple monitor setup...I love this!

[bitfactory]

so i take it the "slew" of new animation effects and or UI changes is BS? or are they only in 81? strange how no one has seen any UI changes in these builds.

[WM.]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
You have just won the "taking a remark out of context" award.

Congratulations!
*takes a bow*
The poster I was replying to said that since Europe had no Apple Stores, Apple therefore didn't do business in Europe.
Well, yes, but he didn't refer to only the stores; he also mentioned manufacturing and tech support. My point was that in those areas, Apple is moving toward doing less in the US, not more.
My point was that Apple didn't have any retail stores in the US until a couple years ago, so it was a bad criteria to use. Apple is, of course, an American company, so they do do business in the US, and always have.
And they're moving toward doing less. They still do more here than anywhere else, I'd think, but I'm sure it's quite cost-effective to outsource more engineering to the manufacturers in Taiwan, etc.

WM

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by WM.
Well, yes, but he didn't refer to only the stores; he also mentioned manufacturing and tech support. My point was that in those areas, Apple is moving toward doing less in the US, not more.

And they're moving toward doing less. They still do more here than anywhere else, I'd think, but I'm sure it's quite cost-effective to outsource more engineering to the manufacturers in Taiwan, etc.

WM

[bennetsaysargh]

HAHAHA!:p
that's a great picture phil!

[cshuman]

I have a Beige G3 and had heard that Panther will not run on "old world machines", can anyone confirm this to be true or can Panther be run on a Beige?

Apple can either get my $129 bucks for Panther and allow it to run on my beige or not get anything at all. I don't have the money now to buy a new Mac.

Chris

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by cshuman
I have a Beige G3 and had heard that Panther will not run on "old world machines", can anyone confirm this to be true or can Panther be run on a Beige?

Apple can either get my $129 bucks for Panther and allow it to run on my beige or not get anything at all. I don't have the money now to buy a new Mac.

Chris

I don't think it'll run on the beige.

Sorry.

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by MacSlut
I haven't seen this mentioned before, but DVD Player now allows you to play on any monitor in a multiple monitor setup...I love this!
Awesome!!

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
IT'S AN AMERICAN COMPANY!

You don't hear me whining about the Germans paying less for a BMW, or about the Japanese paying less for everything Sony makes!

Besides, it seems that your silly VAT makes the difference to you. So blame your own governments.
Yes we are whining. And there is a good reason for that: if you had listened to what he said, VAT (or sales tax) is responsible for only about half the difference in price.
Now about you not whining about prices of BMW, I don't think they are that different. I was too lazy to investigate BMW, but I checked on the porsche website the price of a Boxster S (It pains me to compare Apple's situation with car manufacturers, cause I hate that ********* analogy. Anyway...) and the difference
if you take away the VAT is less than 4%. Nothing to scream about. Especially when the said VAT compensate between 3 and 4 times that difference.

I'm sure Apple wants to hire staff just to check the exchange rates every morning and adjust prices accordingly.
Fair point, and no one has suggested that they should adjust the prices daily. Of course it's normal that Apple should give themselves some margin on the exchange rate to be on the safe side, and the more volatile the exchange rate the wider the margin. But, there are financial tools at Apple's disposal (especially for a company that big) to reduce their exposure to the exchange rates. So that's why it seems a bit unfair that they should make the European customers (for example) pay that much of a premium for their products.

Anyway, we are digressing here.

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
To some extent, but they still have to pay corporate income tax in the EU for the business they do there.
If I'm not mistaken, Apple Europe is based in Cork, Ireland, and for a very good reason. Corporate tax is ridiculously low there: 12.5%!!! Any good? that means it's cheaper for them (tax-wise) to do their business in Europe.

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by iHack
But for God's sake get a sense of good taste. War is not a laughing matter. Especially of the kind where millions are killed.

M.

And 1812, wasn't that something to do with Napoleon (that short French guy)?
Sorry but I'm with Phil of Mac on this one. If we can't joke here, *****!! Just chill everyone.

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by Romanesq
As for the reference to Gemany. Tackless and tasteless. I mean, the poor guys have Schroeder which is a tad better than the other old European state with no foreign policy: France.

If Chirac was not in office, he'd be in jail for selling out the country. Must have been watching Bill Clinton closely for lessons on selling out. Chirac sold to many countries including Iraq. Clinton, only one country we know of: China.

Now if we go off topic, let's mix it up.

How many resolutions does a country need to be threatened with before the Security Council does ... nothing?:p
I'll take the whole lot as a joke, if you will.

[Romanesq]

:o and hopefully any new buyers will get some discount if they haven't yet received their machines.

Mine is scheduled for ship end of this week on Friday.
I doubt from some of the stories if that will take place as since last Friday I haven't seen any activity. I believe folks are crossing their fingers.

If there is any delay I can only hope it helps to get Panther.

[WM.]

LOL--fantastic image, Phil!

WM

[tyrannus]

I notice that Panther's Finer removes the keyboard shortcut for Favorites. In Jaguar, this shortcut is command-shift-F. Why on Earth did Apple remove this? I use this shortcut all the time.

[Phil Of Mac]

In Panther, there are no Favorites.

[bennetsaysargh]

its so they get you to use the sidebar thing and put your favorites in there.

[brooklyn]

According to a Barnes and Noble Employee (who seemed to be a Mac Fanatic) told me that B&N will release Panther Manuals/Books on the last week of October or 1st week of November. That's when they expect the software to be officially released. Here's a link to Panther related books on B&N (notice their release dates). (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=Panther+Mac&userid=2TGYPXBCUK)

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
its so they get you to use the sidebar thing and put your favorites in there.
I never used the favourites anyway, but could you explain the 'sidebar thing'. I am one of those who hasn't really looked at Panther yet (seen a few screenshots here and there). I want to be surprised... But I'd like some info about that sidebar thingy.

[dongmin]

Originally posted by cshuman
I have a Beige G3 and had heard that Panther will not run on "old world machines", can anyone confirm this to be true or can Panther be run on a Beige?

Apple can either get my $129 bucks for Panther and allow it to run on my beige or not get anything at all. I don't have the money now to buy a new Mac.

Chris

Your beige is not officially supported (although there may be hacks). The minimum requirements include built-in USB. But wasn't that the case in Jaguar as well?