Apple Copying Expose from MS??? Yeah, Right..

[Ryan1524]

this is an abomination...


http://www.wininformant.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=40367

"[Until early September,] Microsoft wasn't sure whether it would just demo Aero or supply it to PDC attendees," one source told me recently. But the decision to only demonstrate Aero was made because of the long delay between the PDC and Longhorn's final release, which is set for late 2005. If the company released all of its UI work now, its OS competitors--such as Apple Computer and various companies and organizations in the Linux camp, all of which have fewer customers and faster release cycles than Microsoft--would be able to clone its work before Longhorn releases. This problem has dogged Microsoft in the past, the most recent example being Apple's Expose technology, which will ship in Mac OS X 10.3 late this year; Microsoft has been demonstrating Expose-like technology for years now, but the work won't show up in Windows until the Longhorn release at the earliest.



wtf??? they not only copy apple but claim that they invent them first??? :mad: :mad: :mad:

[FattyMembrane]

you didn't know that? apple copied the ideas for a GUI, colorsync, metadata, and quartz from microsoft. you see, microsoft had the idea for a GUI in 1911, they were just afraid to do a tech demo.

[Ryan1524]

LOL. ah well.. :p ;)

[DreaminDirector]

now that's funny! Apple copies a technology that Microsoft wont have until 2005. I love microsoft and their bullplop propaganda machine.

[Ryan1524]

sad thing is, many will actually believe this bullcrap..:( :rolleyes:

[DreaminDirector]

It's very similar to Intel pushing their "new" wireless technology in laptops when apple has had Airport for years.... Well, I guess I shouldn't yell and scream too much. After all, how could we truly appreciate Apple if we didn't have the other end of the spectrum...

[Stike]

Expose-like??? For years??? Are they joking? What are those people talking about?
Tell me ONE, just ONE possibility to QUICKLY take a look at the desktop in Windows, if you have multiple programs open. You can´t. You need to minimize all of them.

A joke.

ABOMINATION

We should visit them and beat the heck outta them... :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Sun Baked]

Yes Apple copied the Windows 1.0 UI, and continued this trend of copying Microsoft's GUI right up to Windows XP. :rolleyes:

Sort of sucks that MicroSoft can't claim complete piracy of it's operating system functionality, because Apple forgot to implement the virus vulnerability and the required MS instability into OS X.

[P-Worm]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Microsoft should go into stand up comedy!

P-Worm

[mac15]

haha, what a crap. Go Bill!

[bousozoku]

Isn't Exposé directly related to the patented work done for Copland, the original Mac OS 8?

I think there are a few things copied that were in Windows, but they were already in OS/2 or various applications before MS was using them.

The contextual menus and chiseled steel look were both Borland work far before MS (or IBM or Apple) deemed them theirs.

[themadchemist]

I hate Apple! Why are they always copying things from other people?!

I mean, they can't even do it right, either! Jeez, if you're going to copy an operating system, at least make it more stable. I mean, with all the viruses plaguing OS X,...

Oh wait. Never mind.

[Dominatus]

Tell me ONE, just ONE possibility to QUICKLY take a look at the desktop in Windows, if you have multiple programs open. You can´t. You need to minimize all of them.

Ummm...no. Windows Key + D will minimize all of the windows. Windows Key + D again will then restore them. That's been in Windows for years.

[tazo]

Originally posted by Stike
Expose-like??? For years??? Are they joking? What are those people talking about?
Tell me ONE, just ONE possibility to QUICKLY take a look at the desktop in Windows, if you have multiple programs open. You can´t. You need to minimize all of them.

A joke.

ABOMINATION

We should visit them and beat the heck outta them... :mad: :mad: :mad:

Windows has had a 'show desktop' button on the toolbar since atleast Windows 95.

[SoonToGetAMac]

Originally posted by tazo
Windows has had a 'show desktop' button on the toolbar since atleast Windows 95. Well, that's 1/3 of exposé, but even then, I don't think the windows all restore to their original positions, but I could be wrong.

[tazo]

Originally posted by SoonToGetAMac
Well, that's 1/3 of exposé, but even then, I don't think the windows all restore to their original positions, but I could be wrong.

Yes it does.

BTW i didnt know abotu win+D, that is a great tip! Reminds me of the day I learned alt+tab :p

[rainman::|:|]

this guy is like the ann coulter of the mac world. unattractive, unintelligent, and remarkably good at ignoring the truth. i am embarrassed for the magazine that has him as a news editor.

the only evidence he gives (this is in the comments section) about this expose-technology-demoed-for-years, is a vague reference to some booth earlier this year. ignoring the fact that we just went from several years to less than a year in one breath, there's no mention of what was AT this booth, perhaps pictures or articles would help me believe the BS that this guy spins.

i'd write him a bitchy letter but what's the point... if he was creative enough to lie, then change the lies to cover for it, he's not exactly in line to make corrections :)

pnw

[Megaquad]

Yes, writing to him is a good idea.
Let's flood him with hate mail, but make it with nice arguments.

This Windows world is so disgusting I don't understand how people can stand that.
Entire page about that Windows .NET magazine is filled with patches and security issues...

[etoiles]

well, the guy only said that they were demonstrating Expose like technology for years, not that it was implemented in windows. I hadn't heard about it, but maybe it was demoed at some tech/dev shows...

But then, as we all know, it is not about having the technology, it is about knowing what to do with it...and using it.

p.s: can't wait to see what insanely great super-secret innovations longhorn will feature in 2005:rolleyes:

[tazo]

Originally posted by etoiles
well, the guy only said that they were demonstrating Expose like technology for years, not that it was implemented in windows. I hadn't heard about it, but maybe it was demoed at some tech/dev shows...

But then, as we all know, it is not about having the technology, it is about knowing what to do with it...and using it.

p.s: can't wait to see what insanely great super-secret innovations longhorn will feature in 2005:rolleyes:

Perhaps a clock that works?

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by tazo
Perhaps a clock that works? ROFL!!! :D

[stoid]

What I don't understand is why Microsoft is claiming that a smaller company would have a faster product turn around. I would think that if a company has slow product turn around it either have poor management, or is too damn bloated to get products out the door in a timely fashion and needs to be broken apart. Either way Microsoft is leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

[Nermal]

Originally posted by Dominatus
Ummm...no. Windows Key + D will minimize all of the windows. Windows Key + D again will then restore them. That's been in Windows for years.

I hate to be picky, since we are talking about Windows after all, but pressing Win+D doesn't minimise anything. It brings the desktop over the top of everything else. And occasionally you can "lose" a window by doing that, if it doesn't have a taskbar button, and doesn't respond to Alt+Tab.

Win+M, on the other hand, minimises all windows. But some can't be minimised, and therefore stay open. How's that for consistency? :rolleyes:

[stoid]

Nermal, that reminds me of when my Wintel toting buddy was struggling with his laptop behaving sluggishly, and I asked him why he put up with inferior software on a brand new laptop. He said, "Well, that's just the way things are." And I was so confused that I couldn't even respond with so much as a "Huh?"

[Mr. G4]

Originally posted by tazo
Windows has had a 'show desktop' button on the toolbar since atleast Windows 95.

That's just plain wrong.
The show deskop or Win+D is now where close to Exposé. It's just show youe desktop without any opened windows. It's like hide all windows.

[tazo]

Originally posted by Mr. G4
That's just plain wrong.
The show deskop or Win+D is now where close to Exposé. It's just show youe desktop without any opened windows. It's like hide all windows.

which is why the original guy to talk about the features, mentioned that parts of expose were in windows already....

And if you read the original post that I replied to, he stated that there was no way to quickly see your desktop on a pc -- which is baseless and false.

expose-like. keyword there ;)

[stcanard]

Originally posted by tazo
Yes it does.

BTW i didnt know abotu win+D, that is a great tip! Reminds me of the day I learned alt+tab :p

Actually it doesn't. Not in any useful way.

Try this scenario:

1. Take a system with a number of open windows, some minimuzed some not.

2. Win+D to show desktop

3. Open something like My Computer

4. Win+D again

Notice that your original layout is _not_ replaced. It simply minimizes the new window you opened.

Now I like my wallpaper as much as the next person, but the reason I show a desktop is because I want to find something on it.

[edit] Ahh, I see a new respsone that you did know what you were talking about :D You would be surpised how many people claim that show desktop is _exactly_ like expose.

[tazo]

Originally posted by stcanard


[edit] Ahh, I see a new respsone that you did know what you were talking about :D You would be surpised how many people claim that show desktop is _exactly_ like expose.

heh I ain't no dummy :)

Where expose differs is that it can show all your windows open on one screen, with context for each window, like the whats going on in each window...

[BaghdadBob]

OK, having had to use a Windows machine in a production environment in a couple of different jobs, I can say that there are some slight things that have made life faster in the Windows world. Such as the ability to delete files from the open dialogue box, Win-M, and alt-Tab. Mac OS 10.2 still doesn't let me quickly switch between windows inside the same app. However, nothing I have ever used on windows makes me think of Exposé except Win-M. But that's like saying System 7 makes you think of Win 3.1.

But that's besides the point. If Apple ran around talking about their business model for iTMS for "years" and Napseter 2.0 beat them to the punch...TFB for Apple. Really.

[Macco]

Originally posted by BaghdadBob
Mac OS 10.2 still doesn't let me quickly switch between windows inside the same app.

Command + ` (above the tab key). This works on 10.3, and I'm pretty sure I remember it working on 10.2.

[tazo]

i know you can switch between open windows within a program like IE, or other internet windows with apple/command+[~]



:D

[FightTheFuture]

lest us forget the cascade windows option in the taskbar, where you can neatly line up your explorer windows via a quick right and left click on the mouse. and viola! i think that either only worked in a certain app, or just explorer windows. i guess you can compare that to the F10 command in panther.

the show desktop icon in the quick launch tray is also crucial.

anyways, i doubt anyone really used cascade windows effectively. but hitting F10 to find your way back home in panther is an incredible feature.

although its still in its beta stages, lots of tester friends have told me that longhorn is nothing but xp with a different interface.

blah!:o

[Kyle?]

command h is similar to win M, I would guess, especially if used in conjunction with option command h.

To the last post, I'm pretty sure that there's no decent way to get all your windows back to the way they were after selecting the desired window as you can do with f10. You likely have to manually resize each window, since it's quite hard to work in cascaded windows unless you have big monitor.

[FightTheFuture]

ahh... resized cascaded windows... that is true. i'm sure it wasn't meant to really help your workflow as it does in panther, as much as it was meant to just show all of them. here's hoping longhorn will dissapoint many a window fan from here on. ie... windows 98, 98se, and Me.

[BaghdadBob]

Originally posted by Macco
Command + ` (above the tab key). This works on 10.3, and I'm pretty sure I remember it working on 10.2.
Well, what do you know. This officially beats Win-Tab on Windows. Alt-Tabbing through eight Explorer icons to get to a terminal (for example) can get really annoying.

Exposé is still nothing like any feature in Windows.

Although, similarly Microsoft has been doing tech demos of a stable OS for years but Apple stole that idea from them before MS could bring it to market. I see a pattern developing here...Apple needs to quit stealing ideas from MS, that's all there is to it.

[stcanard]

Originally posted by FightTheFuture
the show desktop icon in the quick launch tray is also crucial.


I use XP at work, so I am really curious.

How do people use show desktop in a usable way?

I would love to use it to get at icons on my desktop rather then the creep move that I use now (slowly move windows until I can see the icon I want).

But every time I show desktop and open something, XP proceeeds to forget which windows I had visible and which windows I had minimized, so now I have to waste time arranging them back to their original state. It's faster to do the creep move thing than to sort through two dozen windows that are all minimzed with the same truncated name.

Please, I implore you, if there is a way I can use that show desktop feature to make it usable, it would make my day so much easier!

[FightTheFuture]

ahh.. you are right. quite pointless to minimize the open windows and see your desktop. i can't remember, can't you just click on your app in the taskbar to return it to its current state? have to check that out. but, if you want to work flawlessly from a cluster of open windows, simply find the original target file or app that you use most often, right click and select "pin to start menu" now, you only have to hit the win key to open up the start menu and select it with ease! thats brilliant, micro$oft brilliant!

[Dominatus]

As I said, Win+D will restore them to their original position. And ALL (read: ALL) I was responding to was the guy who said you cant quickly get to your desktop on the PC w/o minimizing everything. Which is idiotic. You most certainly can. I never ever said it was like expose.

[sethypoo]

About Apple copying microsoft's GUI.....I remember reading somewhere that it was the other way around, that Apple came up with the first GUI and microsoft copied it. What gives? Did I get something mixed up?

[Counterfit]

Well, some people at Xerox came up with it first, but they weren't using it. So Steve organized it so Xerox got some Apple stock, and Apple got most of the GUI. Then, he let Microsoft work on apps for the upcoming Mac and for some reason, licensed the OS to them (I think) and then they "mysteriously" came out with Windows about a year after the introduction of the Mac. Apple later sued Microsoft over it, and I forget offhand what the specific details of the settlement were.

[Les Kern]

Apple hasn't invented anything.......


1981 - 1983 (Lisa and Mac Development teams)
General User Interface
Mouse (First on a computer - Concept from PARC)
Menus
Controls
Windows
Desktop Metaphor
Files - multi-forked filing system
long file names (with spaces & special symbols)
automatic typed icons (type + creator)

1984
Desk Accessories (copied in IBM-compatible world as "TSR")
multitasking: Desk Accessories
Sensible System folder
Dynamic, user-accessible system extension (fonts, INITs, control panels, DA's)
Drag-and-drop Application installation
fast and easy access to international characters
User-extensible font manager
Plug-and-play printing; page setup & print dialogs
Built-in clock with backup battery; reliable file dating
Sound
Built-in speaker, 4 voice sound synthesizer, full digitized sound samples
Speech
Speech synthesis (Macintalk)
Floppy 3.5" floppy (400K)
with automounting and auto-eject
Also added a floppy disk cache
hot-swappable peripherals
mouse
MacPaint, MacWrite, MacDraw
First person mainstream networked game (first person dungeon like game -- MazeWar, initially created at Xerox
Mac128K was an Ergonomic All in one Machine , semi-portable
Use of icons to label ports (all ports keyed to prevent mistakes)

1985
LaserWriter printer with Postscript (Apple also helped Adobe get off the ground as a company)
Networking (plug & play, integrated --AppleTalk/LocalTalk)
Direct manipulation Resource Editor
Desktop Publishing (actually came from Mac Application called ReadySetGo, then Adobe Pagemaker, also Scoop, Xpress and a few others at about the same time, because of what the Macs WYSIWG capabilities)
OOP / OOD (Object Oriented Design and Programming)
Object Pascal (later borrowed by Borland)
MacApp (first mainstream Object Oriented Framework, MS copied poorly with MFC)
Movable Palettes

1986
Plug-and play peripherals (SCSI) - ability to handle volumes/partitions to 2GB
Hypercard (simple object programming -- precursor to Visual Basic)
Hypercard (simple hypertext linking -- precursor to the Web
First personal computer with 4MB linear memory space (Mac Plus)
Kanjitalk
More versatile "Wavetable" sound
Memory Modules (SIMMS) instead of installing RAM
Dial in modem service. Apple create AppleLink communication service -- GE used the software to create AOL.
Scroll speed throttle for uniform user experience regardless of processor speed.
ADB (Apple Desktop Bus): extensible, auto-config low-speed peripheral bus (precursor to USB)
1987
Plug-and-play bus expansion (NuBus)
Multifinder application multitasking
Ability to assign labels to files
Multiple monitor support: single large desktop
Color QuickDraw, 256 color 640x480 graphics (same year as VGA with 16-color 640x480 or 256-color 320x200)
Accelerated video cards
Full Page Display
Dual Page Displays
GWorlds (off screen graphics images used)
Built in masking, antialiasing and Dithering of images (actually masking and dithering was earlier).
Industrial Design: Snap Open

1988
SCSI plug-and-play CD-ROM
Ethertalk
Superdrive, can read and write Mac, DOS, OS/2 files

1989
photo-realistic images (32-bit QuickDraw)
32 Bit Clean OS and 32-bit clean computers (software patches fixed older machines, no BIOS replacements)
A/ROSE real-time operating system for smart cards
Multiprocessing (using cards like YARC and Radius Rocket)
Mac Portable, first mainstream portable with an integrated trackball and active matrix screen

1990
Sound input
Built-in Ethernet (Quadra)
Publish and Subscribe and early work on Object Embedding (later to be borrowed and become OLE)
Aural feedback for controls (Sonic Finder)
Ability to assign custom icons to Finder objects

1991
Powerbook 100: first laptop with keyboard in back, trackball in front.
TrueType outline font technology (licensed to Microsoft)
Balloon help (with contextual feedback)
Built in File sharing
Robust aliases
QuickTime
Multimedia -- Apple created the term. They had been the first to integrate Sound, Speech, Text and Graphics (multiple medias), then expanded to include video (and later 3D) and pushed with CD-ROMs
Virtual Memory
Appletalk Remote Access
AppleScript: application and system scripting
Integrated eMail
Integrated Keychain (Security)
Encryption and Security
Network Browser
Trash you have to empty (item in trash survive power down)

1992
Powerbook Duo: first dockable (e.g. "port replicator") but much more elegant
Global text input support (WorldScript)
ColorSync color matching
Built-in CD-ROM's
Video Input - AV models
Integrated DSP
1993
Next generation speech synthesis
Speech recognition (Speakable Items)
Integrated telephony (Geoport)
First PC with built-in TV
PDA
Handwriting Recognition (Newton)
Gesture Recognition

1994
Powerbook 520: first widely-available laptop with trackpad.
Power Macintosh: PowerPC RISC chip
68K emulation for seamless backward compatablity.
Graphing Calculator: real-time equation visualization, 2D and 3D.
MacOS on Unix (MAE)
"Most Recent" folders
Hierarchical menus
Windowshade (collapsible windows)
AppleGuide (help system with coachmarks)
PC Exchange (cross platform file compatibility)
Macintosh Easy Open (can open PC files)
DOS/Windows compatibility cards and emulation software
Threads
TCP/IP support
Powerbook file synchronization
Continuous speech recognition and input (Cantonese dictation)
Bento - Object Oriented Document model
IEEE-1394 (FireWire)

1995
QuickTime VR, Conferencing
Open Transport Networking (streams)
QuickDraw 3D
Plug & Play PCI bus (PCI Only -- no ISA or older bus)

1996
OpenDoc (Fully document centric interface model)
Integrated Browser (CyberDog)
Web as a data-type (CyberDog)

1997
Popup folders
Spring loaded folders

1998
Sherlock full-text indexing and internet searching
Titlebar (icons to represent the folder itself for dragging etc)
Appearance manager (Themes)
Audio Themes (Sonic Finder finally ships in 8.5)
Tear off Menu (Application Menu. Also Apple and NeXT merged, NeXT created them)
Resizable Menus
Customizable scroll bar behavior
Integrated System Wide antialiasing.
iMac - clear case, return of all-in-one, simplified design, ALL plug & play I/O, floppyless design
USB (Universal Serial Bus) :this is a copy of the Apple Desktop Bus (ADB). Apple was also the first to make it ubiquitous and standard.

1999
Industrial Design: Handles + Door
AirPort -- Wireless anetworking made easy

[Les Kern]

By the way, I did see a demo of Longhorn that had "expose-like" window management, but it was more like minimizing to the dock with a fancy "blowing in the wind" window drag, NOT much like expose at all really. Shout something loud and long enough, and the masses believe. It's called "meme", much like collective amnesia, and the GOP is FAMOUS for it.

[asphalt-proof]

This http://www.pycage.de/expocity.html was posted on /. today. Its called expocity. It is essentially a direct copy of Expose' except for Linux (i believe its only for Linux). The programmer can't even think of a more orignal name. THe funny thing is that the discussion of the article has kind of devovled into an expose' vs. virtual diesktop argument.

[stcanard]

Originally posted by FightTheFuture
ahh.. you are right. quite pointless to minimize the open windows and see your desktop. i can't remember, can't you just click on your app in the taskbar to return it to its current state?

I think the problem is that Windows is not intended for more than a single app open at the same time. Other workflows are not supported.

Show desktop works beautifully if you are in, say, a maximized word session with maybe an explorer window open somewhere behind you.

I work in a development environment and often have more than a dozen windows open. None of them are maximized, and some of them are minimized to the taskbar because they are doing other things (running long scripts) that I do not need to pay attention to.

If I use show desktop then open something I now have to go through over a dozen windows, most of which have truncated names like "PuTTY -- ..." and "Internet E..." that give me no idea as to their context, to figure out which ones I was using.

Because of the fact that the idea to save the state of the windows to restore them seems like such a basic function (I've wanted it for years) that I really don't think Microsoft intends for their OS to be used that way.

Now the expose shrink all of my windows to show them is something that had not ocurred to me, and I am immensely happy with Apple for coming up with that. It has improved my workflow efficiency immensely.

[Powerbook G5]

Notice in the desktop image, there is a dock, menu bar, etc all modeled after OS X and there are Panther video clips and such, so it definitely shows the influence the guy had from Panther's Exposé feature.

[Kyle?]

Originally posted by asphalt-proof
This http://www.pycage.de/expocity.html was posted on /. today. Its called expocity. It is essentially a direct copy of Expose' except for Linux (i believe its only for Linux). The programmer can't even think of a more orignal name. THe funny thing is that the discussion of the article has kind of devovled into an expose' vs. virtual diesktop argument.

Not really that funny. I haven't bothered reinstalling CodeTek's Virtual desktop since I installed Panther. Exposé is so much easier, especially when used with cmd tab, although virtual desktops do provide much better organization. So it's no suprise people would debate this.

[etoiles]

Originally posted by Les Kern
Apple hasn't invented anything.......


1981 - 1983 (Lisa and Mac Development teams)
General User Interface
Mouse (First on a computer - Concept from PARC)
Menus
Controls
Windows
Desktop Metaphor
Files - multi-forked filing system
long file names (with spaces & special symbols)
automatic typed icons (type + creator)
...


interesting list but a lot of this stuff has not been invented by Apple... just implemented in their own way. Starting from the very beginning

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Office/7101/

;)

[etoiles]

...and check out the first image on this page, doesn't the 'style' of this ad look familiar ?

http://www.digibarn.com/friends/curbow/star/2/index.html

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by sethypoo
About Apple copying microsoft's GUI.....I remember reading somewhere that it was the other way around, that Apple came up with the first GUI and microsoft copied it. What gives? Did I get something mixed up?

-sethypoo

I think the only thing you got mixed up was all of the sarcasm.

[cubist]

Hey, I like the feature in Windows where you right-click the desktop, say "Arrange icons - by Name" - and it arranges them in some crazy, bizarre order. Maybe they can fix that by 2005.