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MacRumors
Dec 13, 2007, 12:32 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

A Microsoft blogger (http://blogs.msdn.com/hiltonl/archive/2007/12/11/dell-latitude-xt-tablet-on-the-website.aspx) revealed yesterday that the next version of Windows ("Windows 7") will contain touch features with specific claims that the new features will 'blow away' the current touch features on the iPhone:
I will say that if you are impressed by the "touch features" in the iPhone, you'll be blown away by what's coming in Windows 7.
The blogger, Hilton Locke, is a Windows test engineer for the Tablet PC which explains his involvement with touch technologies. Microsoft has already integrated (http://www.news.com/8301-13860_3-9833074-56.html) some touch features into Vista with support for current Tablet PCs as well as HP's TouchSmart PC (http://www.news.com/2300-1041_3-6147765-4.html), but it appears more advanced features will come with Windows 7. This successor to Windows Vista, however, is not expected (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7) to be released until 2010 at the earliest.

Even then, touch features would only be available to manufacturers who take advantage of the new features. Locke suggests that convincing manufacturers to adopt Windows Touch Technology has been difficult.

In May, Microsoft announced (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/05/30/microsoft-launches-multitouch-surface-computing/) their Surface Computing initiative with the introduction of commercial multi-touch tables due in 2008.

Multitouch technologies have been a hot topic since the introduction of the Apple iPhone, with several patent applications indicating that Apple is heavily researching its use. The current incarnation of the iPhone supports two points of contact, allowing the user to zoom in and out using "pinch" and "reverse pinch" motions with two fingers. More advanced multi-touch possibilities include gestures (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/22/advanced-multitouch-gesturing-patents/) and multi-purpose surfaces (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/01/apple-researching-touch-surface-keyboard/).

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/12/13/next-version-of-windows-to-incorporate-advanced-touch-features/)



briansolomon
Dec 13, 2007, 12:34 AM
Very cool. How far off is the next version of Windows-2012?

Kingsly
Dec 13, 2007, 12:37 AM
I believe we will begin seeing developer seeds in around 2023. :rolleyes:

Chaszmyr
Dec 13, 2007, 12:37 AM
As has been pointed out in the past (By Jeff Han I believe), the iPhone's multitouch capabilities are naturally limited because you can't really fit more than two or three fingers on the device.

adrianm
Dec 13, 2007, 12:38 AM
Only if they ship now.

By 2010 (+ standard slip) multi-touch will be common-place and so not exactly contributing to wow factor.

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 12:38 AM
I think Windows 7 is slated to be released as soon as 2009. Vista's delayed release was exceptionally unusual. Remember that before Vista, major versions of Windows were being released every 2-3 years, just like OS X.

xUKHCx
Dec 13, 2007, 12:39 AM
This was pretty obvious seeing as they bought out the surface. It is also pretty obvious that apple are going to include it in their next OS.

celloman
Dec 13, 2007, 12:39 AM
they have copied apple once again

blueflame
Dec 13, 2007, 12:39 AM
they have been pushing the tablet and pen computing for quite some time. really, a pen is not a whole lot different than touch. anyway. i think they have the right idea. good idea, terrible implementation. but hey, they have to innovate somewhere.
A

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 12:40 AM
they have copied apple once again
That's right, Apple invented touch screens. How did I forget?

grappler
Dec 13, 2007, 12:43 AM
Wow, so the touch features windows PCs will have in 2010 will blow away the ones that have been in stores on iPhones since June?

Bravo, Microsoft. Bravo.

cohibadad
Dec 13, 2007, 12:45 AM
can't wait to see what they come up with. I'm sure it will blow me away with intuitive controls that make me more productive.

ccunning
Dec 13, 2007, 12:45 AM
Their upcoming desktop OS which is three years out is going to be better than a Mobile OS released 6 months ago? And this is supposed to blow us away? Really?

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 12:45 AM
Wow, so the touch features windows PCs will have in 2010 will blow away the ones that have been in stores on iPhones since June?

Bravo, Microsoft. Bravo.
Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but of course they will. Just like the multi-touch in the next revision of the iPhone will be better than what we have now.

xUKHCx
Dec 13, 2007, 12:47 AM
If anyone wants to see the current* state of Windows 7 that they are willing to share, not the whole screen the ascii art box in the top right.

http://media.arstechnica.com/news.media/w7.jpg


from 2 months ago.

ravenvii
Dec 13, 2007, 12:47 AM
I concur with the above posts with a "... o rly?"

grappler
Dec 13, 2007, 12:47 AM
Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but of course they will. Just like the multi-touch in the next revision of the iPhone will be better than what we have now.

Sarcastic? Me? Noooooooooooooooooooo....................

DarthTreydor
Dec 13, 2007, 12:47 AM
That's right, Apple invented touch screens. How did I forget?

if they have to talk about how their going to "blow away" the iphone then, yes, they are copying apple.

xUKHCx
Dec 13, 2007, 12:50 AM
if they have to talk about how their going to "blow away" the iphone then, yes, they are copying apple.

That is illogical.

They can say they are going to beat another implementation of an idea but that doesn't mean that they copied the idea from them or indeed the original company invented the concept.

ProstheticHead
Dec 13, 2007, 12:51 AM
Microsoft talks. A lot.

Please refer to Balmer and the iPhone issue.

howiethemacguy
Dec 13, 2007, 12:52 AM
I thought this was a "Mac Rumors" website. This is just Microsoft spouting more vaporware. They're always trying to make up for their colossal failures (Vista) by talking about the "next version" of Windows. That stupid touch screen PC they demoed this year wasn't anything advanced. It makes use of cameras and barcodes. It's hardly cutting edge.

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 12:54 AM
I thought this was a "Mac Rumors" website. This is just Microsoft spouting more vaporware. They're always trying to make up for their colossal failures (Vista) by talking about the "next version" of Windows. That stupid touch screen PC they demoed this year wasn't anything advanced. It makes use of cameras and barcodes. It's hardly cutting edge.
Vista isn't a colossal failure. It's actually selling better than XP. And corporations aren't supposed to be talking about their next products? And it's funny how Apple was talking about Leopard more than a year before its original release date of spring, only for it be delayed. And then delayed again, all while crippling some features and removing others.

And the Surface is quite revolutionary.

chabig
Dec 13, 2007, 12:57 AM
I think Windows 7 is slated to be released as soon as 2009. Vista's delayed release was exceptionally unusual. Remember that before Vista, major versions of Windows were being released every 2-3 years, just like OS X.

I think we'll see increasing delays from Microsoft. Until they realize the need to bring Windows over to a modern foundation, new releases will take longer and longer.

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 01:02 AM
I think we'll see increasing delays from Microsoft. Until they realize the need to bring Windows over to a modern foundation, new releases will take longer and longer.I doubt this. Longhorn was simply overly ambitious. They tried to pack too many features into too tight a deadline. As long as Windows 7 functions more as an evolutionary release than a revolutionary release, I see no reason for it be subjected to any major delays. Maybe a few months, like Leopard, but not much more than that.

howiethemacguy
Dec 13, 2007, 01:03 AM
Vista isn't a colossal failure. It's actually selling better than XP. And corporations aren't supposed to be talking about their next products? And it's funny how Apple was talking about Leopard more than a year before its original release date of spring, only for it be delayed. And then delayed again, all while crippling some features and removing others.

And the Surface is quite revolutionary.

Sure... cameras and barcode scanners are revolutionary... for the 80's that is. Vista is crap. Apple can actually deliver new OS updates in a reasonable amount of time. Microsoft had to return to the drawing board several times before Vista even saw the light of day. I didn't mind Leopard being delayed. At least Apple stated the reason and then delivered Leopard instead of stalling again. As far as crippling features, I haven't noticed any. I run high end apps in Leopard every day.

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 01:07 AM
Sure... cameras and barcode scanners are revolutionary... for the 80's that is. Vista is crap. Apple can actually deliver new OS updates in a reasonable amount of time. Microsoft had to return to the drawing board several times before Vista even saw the light of day. I didn't mind Leopard being delayed. At least Apple stated the reason and then delivered Leopard instead of stalling again. As far as crippling features, I haven't noticed any. I run high end apps in Leopard every day.
Stacks was crippled. Resolution independence didn't come to realization.

Microsoft stated the reason Vista was delayed, and then delivered it. Apple stated the reason Leopard was delayed, and then delivered it. Both Vista and Leopard were delayed more than once, with features dropped.

Vista being crap is your opinion, and has no bearing on actual comparisons between the two products. OS X was crap up until 10.3. (Ooh, controversial statement right there.)

Peace
Dec 13, 2007, 01:07 AM
they have been pushing the tablet and pen computing for quite some time. really, a pen is not a whole lot different than touch. anyway. i think they have the right idea. good idea, terrible implementation. but hey, they have to innovate somewhere.
A

That's right, Apple invented touch screens. How did I forget?

Neither Apple nor Microsoft came up with multi-touch. They both paid for it. What's important is how it's implemented.At this time Apple is ahead of the game.

Consultant
Dec 13, 2007, 01:08 AM
can't wait to see what they come up with. I'm sure it will blow me away with intuitive controls that make me more productive.

Windows has detected a touch, deny or allow?

Windows had detected a stab, deny or allow?

Windows has detected a middle finger, deny or allow?

Windows will now deactive due to detection of two middle fingers...

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 01:10 AM
Windows had detected a stab, deny or allow?

Windows has detected a touch, deny or allow?

Windows has detected a middle finger, deny or allow?

Windows will now deactive due to detection of two middle fingers...
Mac OS X has detected a touch. Please type your password to authenticate.

Mac OS X has detected a middle finger. Please type your password to authenticate.

Mac OS X will now shut down due to detection of two middle fingers.

princigalli
Dec 13, 2007, 01:11 AM
It must be quite difficult convincing hardware manufacturers to incorporate touch technology is Apple can't even convince itself to do it on their laptops. A little competition will be a good thing to make Apple move a little faster. The mouse is dead. It was dead even before the Iphone, but now it really looks inefficient and obsolete.

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 01:12 AM
It must be quite difficult convincing hardware manufacturers to incorporate touch technology is Apple can't even convince itself to do it on their laptops. A little competition will be a good thing to make Apple move a little faster. The mouse is dead. It was dead even before the Iphone, but now it really looks inefficient and obsolete.
The mouse is not dead. Touch technology is still in its infancy and has many, many flaws that need to be overcome. Touch technology will ultimately mature and replace the mouse, but it will still take a long while before this happens.

thejadedmonkey
Dec 13, 2007, 01:15 AM
Vista's a very nice OS, when you look at the bits and pieces. The this and the that are all very nice, it's when you bring it all together that it fails, and that is where MS needs to take a look at Apple or KDE's HIG.

rtcruz1
Dec 13, 2007, 01:20 AM
what a stupid post... 2010 is so far away.. what matters is what is out now... and who knows what Apple or the others who are using touch/multitouch screen technology, will have out by that time too... I don't think Apple is going to sit still with their innovations using this technology.. this blog means nothing to me.. it's useless information..

dastly75
Dec 13, 2007, 01:22 AM
It's amusing seeing the rational people argue with the apple fanboys.

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 01:25 AM
what a stupid post... 2010 is so far away.. what matters is what is out now... and who knows what Apple or the others who are using touch/multitouch screen technology, will have out by that time too... I don't think Apple is going to sit still with their innovations using this technology.. this blog means nothing to me.. it's useless information..
2010 is so far away (actually, it isn't) that in fact the technology we're using now will more than likely be completely obsolete. It's perfectly legitimate to be posting about future plans and prototypes.

Arclite
Dec 13, 2007, 01:30 AM
I doubt this. Longhorn was simply overly ambitious. They tried to pack too many features into too tight a deadline. As long as Windows 7 functions more as an evolutionary release than a revolutionary release, I see no reason for it be subjected to any major delays.

What about all the features they had to cut from Longhorn to ship Vista (WinFS, etc.)? Wouldn't those go into Windows 7?

CaptainHaddock
Dec 13, 2007, 01:30 AM
"Those who are serious about software make their own hardware."

Microsoft isn't serious about software. Good luck to them, when the success of Windows 7 Multitouch depends on Dell hardware.

Stampyhead
Dec 13, 2007, 01:32 AM
Vista isn't a colossal failure. It's actually selling better than XP.

Yes, I'm sure they're selling a lot of copies. But then people turn around and re-install XP after finding Vista mostly unusable. Most Windows users I know who have bought Vista have done this.
But anyway, back on topic. Re: the touch functionality that will 'blow away the iPhone,' I'll believe it when I see it. Enough rhetoric, bring it on.

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 01:32 AM
"Those who are serious about software make their own hardware."

Microsoft isn't serious about software. Good luck to them, when the success of Windows 7 Multitouch depends on Dell hardware.
A quote by Alan Kaye is just that... a quote. It's not any sort of rule or guideline, and hardly holds water in the software industry. Should Adobe start making computers now? They don't take Photoshop seriously?

Microsoft is absolutely serious about software. And actually, they do make hardware, like keyboards and mice, just not computers. Although they have posted some concept PCs that look quite nice.

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 01:33 AM
Yes, I'm sure they're selling a lot of copies. But then people turn around and re-install XP after finding Vista mostly unusable. Most Windows users I know who have bought Vista have done this.
But anyway, back on topic. Re: the touch functionality that will 'blow away the iPhone,' I'll believe it when I see it. Enough rhetoric, bring it on.
Do you think Microsoft cares that people are re-installing XP after buying Vista? The key thing is they are buying Vista. A sale is a sale, it doesn't matter what the end user does with the end product.

Westside guy
Dec 13, 2007, 01:37 AM
Vista isn't a colossal failure. It's actually selling better than XP. And corporations aren't supposed to be talking about their next products? And it's funny how Apple was talking about Leopard more than a year before its original release date of spring, only for it be delayed. And then delayed again, all while crippling some features and removing others.

And the Surface is quite revolutionary.

I agree (to a point) with your comments about Surface. It's scope is limited; but it's a great idea.

On the other hand, if you read the IT trade press it's pretty obvious that (at least right now) Vista is being considered "too little, too late" by the majority of IT managers out there. A large percentage are currently planning to sit out Vista, and just wait for the next Windows iteration. And why not? With XP doing everything they want and being reasonably secure, there's no good reason to upgrade. Since Microsoft is releasing XP SP3 in a few months, that means their support timeline extends by another 5 years from that point. You won't be able to buy XP as an individual, but corporations will still be able to put it on their boxes.

heinzel
Dec 13, 2007, 01:38 AM
Do you think Microsoft cares that people are re-installing XP after buying Vista? The key thing is they are buying Vista. A sale is a sale, it doesn't matter what the end user does with the end product.

And when everything was said and done, everything was said and done. Move along, nothing to see here.

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 01:39 AM
I agree (to a point) with your comments about Surface. It's scope is limited; but it's a great idea.

On the other hand, if you read the IT trade press it's pretty obvious that (at least right now) Vista is being considered "too little, too late" by the majority of IT managers out there. A large percentage are currently planning to sit out Vista, and just wait for the next Windows iteration. And why not? With XP doing everything they want and being reasonably secure, there's no good reason to upgrade. Since Microsoft is releasing XP SP3 in a few months, that means their support timeline extends by another 5 years from that point. You won't be able to buy XP as an individual, but corporations will still be able to put it on their boxes.
I don't think Microsoft is too concerned about this, as Microsoft still has corporations locked into Office, Exchange servers, and many other alternative revenue generators. I'm quite sure Microsoft actually makes more money off of Office than it does from Windows, but I don't have any data handy to back that up.

rtcruz1
Dec 13, 2007, 01:43 AM
2010 is so far away (actually, it isn't) that in fact the technology we're using now will more than likely be completely obsolete. It's perfectly legitimate to be posting about future plans and prototypes.

Posting information about future plans or prototypes is one thing.. but to make reference to a feature that is coming out 3 years from now, and saying it will blow away a feature that is in a product that's out today, is useless to me.. I'm assuming that any technology that is out 3 years from now will be more advanced than the same type of technology that came out 3 years before it... I still believe that it's a useless statement..

I might as well put a post out there, and say that there is going to be a laptop coming out in 2010 that will be way more advanced than any laptop out today... DUHHHHHH..

koobcamuk
Dec 13, 2007, 01:47 AM
That is illogical.

They can say they are going to beat another implementation of an idea but that doesn't mean that they copied the idea from them or indeed the original company invented the concept.

Agreed. I hate Ballmer, but if you think about it, competition from Windows will just make Apple strive to be more innovative.

Apple don't really invent that much. They are like Japan in many respects - they didn't invent the train, but they have the best in the world. They take currently technology/ideas and build on them whilst implementing them to a whole new level.

Bobjob186
Dec 13, 2007, 01:49 AM
Microsoft is so freaking gnarly, If you know anything about real computing and how an advanced user can take control of Windows more than OS X then you wouldn't even compare the to two OS's to begin with. The only reason there are so many fanboys for Mac OS is because they know a few tricks that OS X has and they can do some pretty complicated things that OS X makes really easy to do for the average user. You throw them into the Windows world and they can't even set up a LAN. Let's be real, I love OS X, it's literally my favorite, but I can't stand reading posts by people who don't know anything about the actual computing. I'll put it this way. Try understanding a company that makes an OS that allows you to use software that was made 10 years ago (Microsoft = super balling in this aspect) and a company that updates it's OS and screws all the previous users over (Apple = survives because of the fanboys).

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 01:50 AM
Microsoft is so freaking gnarly, If you know anything about real computing and how an advanced user can take control of Windows more than OS X then you wouldn't even compare the to two OS's to begin with. The only reason there are so many fanboys for Mac OS is because they know a few tricks that OS X has and they can do some pretty complicated things that OS X makes really easy to do for the average user. You throw them into the Windows world and they can't even set up a LAN. Let's be real, I love OS X, it's literally my favorite, but I can't stand reading posts by people who don't know anything about the actual computing. I'll put it this way. Try understanding a company that makes an OS that allows you to use software that was made 10 years ago (Microsoft = super balling in this aspect) and a company that updates it's OS and screws all the previous users over (Apple = survives because of the fanboys).
I hope you are prepared for an onslaught by the fanboys. A post that I more or less agree with, too bad something like this on a board like this one gets your burned alive. Good luck to you.

robbyx
Dec 13, 2007, 01:52 AM
This is so typical of the Windows world. They so desperately want to be FIRST, just once!!! Please let us be the cool ones!!! Who the h*ll cares if Windows 7 touch features will blow away the iPhone? I can't buy it. It doesn't exist yet.

So promise me everything you want, but it doesn't change the fact that what you offer today is, um, lame. And something tells me in the three to five years it takes to ship the next version of Windows, we'll have seen some really cool technology from Apple and others.

Yawn.

robbyx
Dec 13, 2007, 01:56 AM
Apple don't really invent that much. They are like Japan in many respects - they didn't invent the train, but they have the best in the world. They take currently technology/ideas and build on them whilst implementing them to a whole new level.

But that's usually what it takes. Really visionary thinking rarely happens inside a big structured organization. The proverbial inventor in his garage. It takes a player with vision to implement it on a mass scale. Microsoft has never been such a player and their products reflect that. Apple, on the other hand, does a great job of finding the innovators out there and bringing them onboard.

robbyx
Dec 13, 2007, 02:00 AM
Microsoft is so freaking gnarly, If you know anything about real computing and how an advanced user can take control of Windows more than OS X then you wouldn't even compare the to two OS's to begin with. The only reason there are so many fanboys for Mac OS is because they know a few tricks that OS X has and they can do some pretty complicated things that OS X makes really easy to do for the average user. You throw them into the Windows world and they can't even set up a LAN. Let's be real, I love OS X, it's literally my favorite, but I can't stand reading posts by people who don't know anything about the actual computing. I'll put it this way. Try understanding a company that makes an OS that allows you to use software that was made 10 years ago (Microsoft = super balling in this aspect) and a company that updates it's OS and screws all the previous users over (Apple = survives because of the fanboys).

You're saying that 10 year old Microsoft software runs fine on Vista, but OS X somehow breaks software with new releases? I have to ask, because it seems so ludicrous.

Kelmon
Dec 13, 2007, 02:02 AM
This is just Microsoft spouting more vaporware. They're always trying to make up for their colossal failures (Vista) by talking about the "next version" of Windows.

Entirely agreed. After spending so much time developing Vista they should be banging on about how great it is until they're blue in the face in order to recoup the investment costs. That they are almost immediately talking about the next version of Windows and trying to hype that one up sounds very strange.

Regardless, the suggestion that we'll be waiting for Windows 7 to blow away the iPhone in 3-5 years time is just nonsense. One thing is for certain, we won't be able to move for touch interfaces when Windows 7 arrives so it's definitely going to have it's work cut out for it and will need to worry about much more than the iPhone.

Daringescape
Dec 13, 2007, 02:03 AM
I think people will be ready for the Apple style of touch technology in a laptop soon, if not now.

I constantly find myself starting to do touch gestures on my trackpad - like the 2 finger reverse pinch to make a photo larger. Its weird how quickly Ive gotten used to it.

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 02:04 AM
Entirely agreed. After spending so much time developing Vista they should be banging on about how great it is until they're blue in the face in order to recoup the investment costs. That they are almost immediately talking about the next version of Windows and trying to hype that one up sounds very strange.

Regardless, the suggestion that we'll be waiting for Windows 7 to blow away the iPhone in 3-5 years time is just nonsense. One thing is for certain, we won't be able to move for touch interfaces when Windows 7 arrives so it's definitely going to have it's work cut out for it and will need to worry about much more than the iPhone.
They are talking on and on about how great Vista is, have you been to Microsoft's site?

Also, all the info that has been given about Windows 7 is very vague and basic, hardly what you would call "hype." Just like Apple gave some basic info on Leopard a long while before it was actually released, it's the same thing here.

czeluff
Dec 13, 2007, 02:04 AM
Do you think Microsoft cares that people are re-installing XP after buying Vista? The key thing is they are buying Vista. A sale is a sale, it doesn't matter what the end user does with the end product.

LOL @ "a sale is a sale".

Yes, that IS Microsoft in a nutshell: it doesn't matter how bad our products are, just as long as we can sell them.

Regarding the main post itself: I really love Microsoft's enthusiasm about being able to catch up to Apple's touchscreen abilities within the next 3 years. They must have the idea that Apple's touchscreen technology won't be advancing at all during that period of time...

Because remember everyone: "you can do more when your phone runs Windows." LOL

MarlboroLite
Dec 13, 2007, 02:05 AM
Apple = survives because of the fanboys

That's really quite funny. Apple is only around because of a band of "fanboy" zealots! Really? I guess you must have missed their double digit growth in sales, and rapid increase in market share; and unless you are going to claim that all these computers they are selling are due to millionaire "fanboys" buying up 10 computers each, I'd suggest you do a little research before posting such nonsense.

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 02:05 AM
LOL @ "a sale is a sale".

Yes, that IS Microsoft in a nutshell: it doesn't matter how bad our products are, just as long as we can sell them.

Regarding the main post itself: I really love Microsoft's enthusiasm about being able to catch up to Apple's touchscreen abilities within the next 3 years. They must have the idea that Apple's touchscreen technology won't be advancing at all during that period of time...

Because remember everyone: "your phone can do more when it runs Windows." LOL
The point of a corporation is to sell products and maximize profit. Do you really think Apple gives a damn about its customers? Do you really think the health care companies care about your health? They don't. Neither does Microsoft. They are out to make money. And thus, a sale is a sale.

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 02:07 AM
That's really quite funny. Apple is only around because of a band of "fanboy" zealots! Really? I guess you must have missed their double digit growth in sales, and rapid increase in market share; and unless you are going to claim that all these computers they are selling are due to millionaire "fanboys" buying up 10 computers each, I'd suggest you do a little research before posting such nonsense.
Well, the fanboys do appear to speak for Apple in greater volumes than the "average" Apple customers. There's a reason terms like "Mactard" are quite pervasive these days, perhaps the brand has a bit of a smug image?

KingYaba
Dec 13, 2007, 02:11 AM
So what about me who doesn't give a flying flipp about multitouch?

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 02:12 AM
So what about me who doesn't give a flying flipp about multitouch?
There will still be the mouse and keyboard.

TurboSC
Dec 13, 2007, 02:13 AM
I've officially lost all hope for Windows.

I used to be a big PC fan, but today I had my run in with Vista for the first time, on my Step-Dad's new XPS laptop...

it's such a clumsy OS that just tries to look pretty... ugh, no more respect. :P

I'm also awaiting the purchase of my MBP come mid January.

robbyx
Dec 13, 2007, 02:13 AM
Well, the fanboys do appear to speak for Apple in greater volumes than the "average" Apple customers. There's a reason terms like "Mactard" are quite pervasive these days, perhaps the brand has a bit of a smug image?

How old are you? I'm guessing somewhere around 17?

czeluff
Dec 13, 2007, 02:16 AM
The point of a corporation is to sell products and maximize profit. Do you really think Apple gives a damn about its customers? Do you really think the health care companies care about your health? They don't. Neither does Microsoft. They are out to make money. And thus, a sale is a sale.

You're right in the sense that they're out to make money; you're wrong in thinking they can keep doing so alongside the complete disregard for the customer's views. Without SOME sort of positive feedback, it collapses quickly.

robbyx
Dec 13, 2007, 02:17 AM
The point of a corporation is to sell products and maximize profit. Do you really think Apple gives a damn about its customers? Do you really think the health care companies care about your health? They don't. Neither does Microsoft. They are out to make money. And thus, a sale is a sale.

Actually, I think Apple does care, and that's the point. Yeah, it's a corporation out to make money. As you said, that's what all corporations want to do. But, some corporations are more progressive by nature. Look at WalMart. They're greedy dinosaurs. They don't care if they make the world better or worse, so long as it is cheap.

Apple wants to add value to people's lives. I genuinely believe it is in their DNA. Yes, they want to make money, but a desire to create a genuinely great product is what motivates them. It's that desire that separates the innovators from the followers.

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 02:17 AM
How old are you? I'm guessing somewhere around 17?
I'm a little bit older than that.

inkswamp
Dec 13, 2007, 02:20 AM
Wow, before MS starts hyping the vapo-- er, features of the next version of Windows, maybe they should deliver a few of the many promised features that were dropped from Vista. :rolleyes:

boer
Dec 13, 2007, 02:20 AM
Oh my God, Apple is in big trouble! A Microsoft blogger has announced some cool features will be released sometime after 2010 to counter what Apple products had in 2007! :eek:

GuillaumeB
Dec 13, 2007, 02:21 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/3B48b Safari/419.3)

yeh right
another system that will require 16gb of RAM

Quillz
Dec 13, 2007, 02:21 AM
Actually, I think Apple does care, and that's the point. Yeah, it's a corporation out to make money. As you said, that's what all corporations want to do. But, some corporations are more progressive by nature. Look at WalMart. They're greedy dinosaurs. They don't care if they make the world better or worse, so long as it is cheap.

Apple wants to add value to people's lives. I genuinely believe it is in their DNA. Yes, they want to make money, but a desire to create a genuinely great product is what motivates them. It's that desire that separates the innovators from the followers.
Wants to add value to their lives? Within their DNA? ...

What they want to do is build great customer loyalty, because then they know those loyal customers will happily pay for overpriced hardware and annual services like .Mac. Yes, they are great innovators, but I can guarantee they do not care about their customers the way that some people around here would like to think they do. As long as you have the money, they like you. And this is true of all corporations.

QuarterSwede
Dec 13, 2007, 02:26 AM
Actually, I think Apple does care, and that's the point. Yeah, it's a corporation out to make money. As you said, that's what all corporations want to do. But, some corporations are more progressive by nature. Look at WalMart. They're greedy dinosaurs. They don't care if they make the world better or worse, so long as it is cheap.

Apple wants to add value to people's lives. I genuinely believe it is in their DNA. Yes, they want to make money, but a desire to create a genuinely great product is what motivates them. It's that desire that separates the innovators from the followers.
That's actually a valid point. Target, as a whole, very much values it's customers to the point of employees who don't won't last long (at least in properly run stores). I imagine Apple feels the same way about creating products that they believe in, although I'm sure people at Microsoft feel the same way. The difference comes in how there run really. Apple seems to have good management and Microsoft ... well, I wouldn't want to have to deal with the politics, let's just say that. I honestly think they've become too big for their own good (and everyone else's).

inkswamp
Dec 13, 2007, 02:26 AM
but I can guarantee they do not care about their customers the way that some people around here would like to think they do.

Apple's consistently high customer satisfaction rating and lower than industry average hardware failure rates as reported year after year in Consumer Reports beg to differ with you.

Evangelion
Dec 13, 2007, 02:33 AM
Vista isn't a colossal failure. It's actually selling better than XP.

And there's an explanation for that: Most Windows-licenses are sold when consumer buys a computer. One Windows-PC sold, one Windows-license sold. Now, as it happens, there are more PC being sold now, than there were being sold back when XP was released.

So, the thing is that people are not rushing out to buy Vista, there are simply more computers being sold, and those computers ship with Vista by default. The market for computer has increased substantially since XP was released, and MS is using that fact as "proof" that "Vista is selling better than XP!".

Apple's consistently high customer satisfaction rating

Well, since large portion of Mac-users are quite fanatical about their computer-choice, then that naturally skews the results. PC-users are not that enthusiastic about their computers, they just see them as a tool. For many Mac-users, the decision to use a Mac is a lifestyle-statement, and they are a lot more passionate about it.

boer
Dec 13, 2007, 02:36 AM
Let's be real, I love OS X, it's literally my favorite, but I can't stand reading posts by people who don't know anything about the actual computing.

See that's the thing. Apple is trying to follow a philosophy that people shouldn't have to know how computers work in order to use them creatively or otherwise for their tasks. Apple fans are smug because they can accomplish things with their computers without having to have to do maintenance or driver updates or the other waste of time that consumes the Windows users.

Why would people have to care how an OS or a computer actually works while most do not know how cars really work? That does not mean people cannot operate cars sucessfully because they are designed simple.

jragosta
Dec 13, 2007, 02:57 AM
Imagine my surprise - a Microsoft employee says we'll be blown away by some unreleased future hypeware product. Given their history with major OS revisions (Win95 and Vista), it MAY be out in around 10 years.

And please excuse me if I don't buy Microsoft's claim that this is going to be earth-shattering. They said the same thing about Windows 95 and Vista, as well. In fact, I'd have a hard time identifying ANY Windows technology that could be said to have blown away the competition - unless you count malware spreading capabilities.

Well, since large portion of Mac-users are quite fanatical about their computer-choice, then that naturally skews the results. PC-users are not that enthusiastic about their computers, they just see them as a tool. For many Mac-users, the decision to use a Mac is a lifestyle-statement, and they are a lot more passionate about it.

Let's see. So Mac users are happier with their computers so we shouldn't consider their happiness with their computers as being relevant?

With that kind of circular logic, you should put in for a job as Steve Ballmer's right hand man.

shigzeo
Dec 13, 2007, 02:59 AM
it is nice to see some good research from microsoft. the closer microsoft can come to making windows truly quickly useable the better. apple invent best when under pressure i think. without such pressure we would not have osx.

i hope apple are pushed far enough to truly make something that they are capable of. but as mentioned in the article, it is unfortunate that even if microsoft invent a great touch manipulation, they cannot control that it is used or how well since they do not control the hardware that comes out.

it will not be microsoft who are famous for the touch, it will be sony or toshiba or whomever implements the system well.

markiv810
Dec 13, 2007, 03:04 AM
Microsoft talks. A lot.

Please refer to Balmer and the iPhone issue.

Ballmer is an ass, he there in M$ to make Bill Gates look like an angel.

gnasher729
Dec 13, 2007, 03:05 AM
Microsoft stated the reason Vista was delayed, and then delivered it. Apple stated the reason Leopard was delayed, and then delivered it. Both Vista and Leopard were delayed more than once, with features dropped.

Vista was supposed to compete with Panther. Not Tiger, but Panther. Should have been out some time in 2003. Leopard was delayed by three months. Can you see the difference?

inkswamp
Dec 13, 2007, 03:10 AM
Well, since large portion of Mac-users are quite fanatical about their computer-choice, then that naturally skews the results.

Nice. I cited facts (Apple's customer satisfaction is consistently higher than that of their competitors) and you respond with an ad hominem swipe at all Mac users. You know, the hardware failure stats, in which Apple does very well compared to other PC manufacturers--especially when it comes to critical hardware failures--is not subjective. It's based on numbers. You can try to write all that off by attacking Mac users or you can deal with facts.

BTW, did it ever occur to you that you might have the cause-and-effect swapped? Maybe the fanaticism you see about Apple's products is the result of their demonstrably better hardware and higher customer satisfaction ratings--not the other way around. Seems likely to me. But that's me. I like to deal with facts. :rolleyes:

belovedmonster
Dec 13, 2007, 03:10 AM
To all these people arguing whether Vista is a turkey or not:

The very fact that Microsoft is already selling the features of Windows 7 at every opportunity is proof that they feel their best strategy is to kinda forget that Vista ever happened and get people excited for the next version. Would they be doing this if Vista had been a hit? No!

bluefiberoptics
Dec 13, 2007, 03:11 AM
I feel a lot of heat in this thread.

For me, Windows XP is great due to the flexibility and software available for it.

OS X is great because it works very well on Apple's machines, seems well designed, and in theory is supposed to work better than a standard OS because it was designed for the hardware Apple sells it on.

Linux is great because (Insert wonderful open source advantages here)

I enjoy all the three major OSes and each have their own flaws.

I can't wait to see Windows 7, the next Ubuntu, and the next Mac OS.

It's operating system love, everyone!

gnasher729
Dec 13, 2007, 03:14 AM
But at least the Windows world doesn't waste millions of dollars a year making stupid commercials attacking the competition.

Well, Microsoft would look stupid doing that, wouldn't they? On the other hand, Microsoft has "wasted" hundreds of millions on fines for breaking the law in Europe. Microsoft playing games and buying votes trying to make OOXML into an international standard has severely damaged ISO. But that isn't stupid, that is just a business decision and the way Microsoft works.

Evangelion
Dec 13, 2007, 03:19 AM
Let's see. So Mac users are happier with their computers so we shouldn't consider their happiness with their computers as being relevant?

With that kind of circular logic, you should put in for a job as Steve Ballmer's right hand man.

Uh, no. Point is that buying a Mac is a conscious decision. People who buy a Mac WANT to buy a Mac. There's an element of selection right there. Selection that does not exist in PC's. people who buy a HP or Dell or some other PC are not thinking "I WANT buy a HP". They just want to buy a computer, the brand is not that important to them. Mac-users have more personal connection to their computer, PC-users does not. And like it or not, that skews the results.

Like I said: Buying a Mac is in many way a lifestyle-statement. You make the conscious decision to buy a Mac, you do not make a conscious decision to buy certain brand of PC, you just buy the PC that best suits your needs.

gnasher729
Dec 13, 2007, 03:20 AM
Microsoft is so freaking gnarly, If you know anything about real computing and how an advanced user can take control of Windows more than OS X then you wouldn't even compare the to two OS's to begin with.

Replace "advanced user" with "virus writer", and no, you wouldn't want to compare them :D

Oh-es-Ten
Dec 13, 2007, 03:21 AM
Wow... I can multitouch my bloated Registry...

Look at the way I can reach out and touch my WGA Activation..

Aaargh.. the DLL's are all over my hands... Must wash hands..

Unless Microsoft fundamentally change their management, design team and strategy.... This is not a current threat.

shigzeo
Dec 13, 2007, 03:21 AM
it is nice to see some good research from microsoft. the closer microsoft can come to making windows truly quickly useable the better. apple invent best when under pressure i think. without such pressure we would not have osx.

i hope apple are pushed far enough to truly make something that they are capable of. but as mentioned in the article, it is unfortunate that even if microsoft invent a great touch manipulation, they cannot control that it is used or how well since they do not control the hardware that comes out.

it will not be microsoft who are famous for the touch, it will be sony or toshiba or whomever implements the system well.

juanm
Dec 13, 2007, 03:23 AM
You know, Quillz, mastur***ion can be fun too. Maybe you should give it a try instead of trolling around here. Seriously, you haven't even made one valid point, and you know it.

Yes, Microsoft engineers can do nice things in their labs. The problem comes when they have to implement those things on other people's hardware and for the average user.

No, Apple's get a Mac ads aren't a waste of money. Advertising is a waste of money when it doesn't produce sales. In this case, it has been proved a funny and successful series of ads (see market share growth), so it's not a waste, it's an investment.

Yes, Apple is there to make money, and so is Microsoft. The problem I see is that when you buy a fridge, you shouldn't be a certified fridge repairer to keep it running, or to put a locker on the door. The same goes with windows. I make money helping people with their PCs problems, but I always tell them "next time, buy a Mac". When they don't, It's good for me, because it keeps me working, but on the long term, I'd prefer to see people switching en masse.

Why all this polemic about a guy who's doing his job? (he gets paid by Microsoft to diffuse their hi tech hype) I heard the very same conversation years ago (I think in 2003 or 2004) about the "rumored" ground-breaking 3D interface. Now you see the result. Apple has done it right with exposé or app exposé. Microsoft has failed with a fancier 3D stack of windows that doesn't even allow to see the contents of the windows. They will probably try to implement touch on the existing windows interface, because the average user wouldn't buy a new windows if they have to learn everything again. That's the strenght of Apple and Linux: if MS changes too fast, people will feel so disorientated they will switch to Macs because they are "said to be so easy". Let alone if wespeak about 2009 or 2010 when Macs market share will be much higher than today.

MS Surface looks nice (although extremely limited) because it's 1: a single purpose device 2: they weren't tied to the same old interface, and thus, could implement multitouch without any limit. They will never be able to do the same thing on windows without losing a huge amount of people like my mother (I always use her as a Lambda reference user).

ATG
Dec 13, 2007, 03:31 AM
So? Is it the touch features that make the iPhone special? Of course not. It's the software. How the icons on the home screen fly in and out, how the "Slide to unlock" text has a cool animated gradient, how everything is animated. It's also how it's so intuitive and "just works". Microsoft software is never like that, even when they try and copy something, they always mess it up.

pmoeser
Dec 13, 2007, 03:39 AM
The only reason there are so many fanboys for Mac OS is because they know a few tricks that OS X has and they can do some pretty complicated things that OS X makes really easy to do for the average user. You throw them into the Windows world and they can't even set up a LAN. Let's be real, I love OS X, it's literally my favorite, but I can't stand reading posts by people who don't know anything about the actual computing. I'll put it this way. Try understanding a company that makes an OS that allows you to use software that was made 10 years ago (Microsoft = super balling in this aspect) and a company that updates it's OS and screws all the previous users over (Apple = survives because of the fanboys).

Who was moderating your application to join this forum?

This is not about "Fanboys" Apple does not survive because of "fanboys"

Apple survives because it innovates.

Apple did make it easy to set up a LAN. Microsoft makes it complicated. Microsoft makes it proprietary. Microsoft makes software that requires huge increases in hard drive storage every time they release something new. Microsoft makes buggy software that easily lets 14 year olds on summer vacation make viruses and malware to bring down large portions of the general working community. Microsoft makes software that ties people to buying more software made by them to get anything to work. Microsoft makes it necessary to buy a whole new computer every time they upgrade an OS.

"Actual computing" is about turning on your computer and being able to use it straight away without having to download MB of updates to virus definitions, being able to Boot in the first place.

Take your ridiculous invalid and childish "fanboy" comments back to a Microsoft forum where it belongs. Hell this was probably written by The Big Ballmer himself.

I'll stop now, I'm bored dismissing you already. In fact I can't believe I wasted keystrokes on this reply at all.

pmoeser
Dec 13, 2007, 03:44 AM
Clearly, this board is biased towards Apple, which makes sense, but that still doesn't mean false and misleading info should be posted about the competition.

Duh, did you read the URL? macrumours.com

Evangelion
Dec 13, 2007, 04:04 AM
Apple did make it easy to set up a LAN. Microsoft makes it complicated. Microsoft makes it proprietary. Microsoft makes software that requires huge increases in hard drive storage every time they release something new. Microsoft makes buggy software that easily lets 14 year olds on summer vacation make viruses and malware to bring down large portions of the general working community. Microsoft makes software that ties people to buying more software made by them to get anything to work. Microsoft makes it necessary to buy a whole new computer every time they upgrade an OS.

Now, there's no reason to resort to hyberbole. Some of the claims you make there are quite dubious.

"Actual computing" is about turning on your computer and being able to use it straight away without having to download MB of updates to virus definitions, being able to Boot in the first place.

I have been doing that with Windows.

Chopper9
Dec 13, 2007, 04:18 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/3B48b Safari/419.3)

I think the real quesrion is: what kind of loser comes on an apple rumour site and argues with apple fans "how great microsoft windows" is?

Mattnh
Dec 13, 2007, 04:18 AM
Funny how Microsoft not really blew me away before.
Not like the first iMac did or OSX.

Cleverboy
Dec 13, 2007, 04:23 AM
This was pretty obvious seeing as they bought out the surface. It is also pretty obvious that apple are going to include it in their next OS.--And its pretty obvious that we'll see the next Mac OS X before we see the next Windows, historically speaking.
Funny how Microsoft not really blew me away before.
Not like the first iMac did or OSX.You probably don't have an XBox 360. I've also been particularly impressed with my ergonomic keyboard, and until Logitech upped the ante, the Microsoft Mouse was effectively peerless.

~ CB

Phil A.
Dec 13, 2007, 04:35 AM
Microsoft is so freaking gnarly, If you know anything about real computing and how an advanced user can take control of Windows more than OS X then you wouldn't even compare the to two OS's to begin with. The only reason there are so many fanboys for Mac OS is because they know a few tricks that OS X has and they can do some pretty complicated things that OS X makes really easy to do for the average user. You throw them into the Windows world and they can't even set up a LAN. Let's be real, I love OS X, it's literally my favorite, but I can't stand reading posts by people who don't know anything about the actual computing. I'll put it this way. Try understanding a company that makes an OS that allows you to use software that was made 10 years ago (Microsoft = super balling in this aspect) and a company that updates it's OS and screws all the previous users over (Apple = survives because of the fanboys).

This is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin! I've been making a living from Microsoft products since DOS 3.0 so I do know what I'm talking about and OS X is light years ahead from a technical perspective. OS X is a full blown Unix with all the control and functionality that brings (starting with a proper shell and utilities).

OS X brings cross 32/64 bit compatibility across 2 processor architectures in a single installation with a unified driver model (try finding drivers for 64 bit XP or Vista to see the difference).

Yes, they have now dropped support for Classic apps, but I see this as a positive rather than a negative: Apple aren't scared of moving forwards but when they do they give users a lot of time to adjust and move with them (7 years for classic). Compare this to Microsoft who claim continual backwards compatibility but only if you've been lucky enough to stick with X86:
I don't know if you remember, but NT 4 promoted itself as cross processor with support for MIPS and PPC but with separate versions and they quietly dropped that support and left users out to dry with absolutely no way forward when they got bored.

Lefteous
Dec 13, 2007, 04:38 AM
I guess this will be as good as WinFS in Vista :D

pmoeser
Dec 13, 2007, 04:46 AM
Now, there's no reason to resort to hyberbole. Some of the claims you make there are quite dubious.

nimda, melissa?

system specs for XP and Vista?

Leopard is running (very quickly) on a machine built in April 2004 with only 768MB Ram

I have been doing that with Windows.

And unless you never connect it to the internet ( or are happy to ghost an image back onto a new drive every few weeks) the virus definitions are downloading quietly in the background to keep your computing experience "safe and secure"

Or you've signed up and paid for the new MS solution which for an extra payment on top of the exorbitant price for the OS will protect you from the viruses and worms that their poor product development allowed to be created in the first place!

Did quillz change his user name or is this Bill now posting because Steve has gone to have a swim in his pool full of ill gotten cash...

csimmons
Dec 13, 2007, 04:46 AM
I hope you are prepared for an onslaught by the fanboys. A post that I more or less agree with, too bad something like this on a board like this one gets your burned alive. Good luck to you.

Uhh, Quillz, in case you missed it, the site is called Mac Rumors.com.

You're not providing any sort of balanced, fair commentary, despite your claims to the contrary. You are a MS fanboy, an apologist who deems it necessary to come to a site devoted to the Mac and other Apple products and defend what many people see as being indefensible. Not only does that make you look foolish, but you obviously are a sucker for pain.

You are the classic example of the pot calling the kettle black, a model of hypocrisy that is unfortunately very typical of the vast majority of MS apologists.You are fooling no one here. Please troll somewhere else.

Cloudane
Dec 13, 2007, 05:02 AM
Yeah right, I'll believe this when I see it. Anyone remember all the features that were supposed to go into Vista? By the time they'd cut everything out in order to release it within this century, we ended up with basically XP with Spotlight, a pretty interface and security in the form of "pester the hell out of the user until he gets frustrated and turns it off". None of the "exciting groundbreaking technology" like the database filesystem made it.

I don't know how long this is supposed to take, but they need to do something sharpish. I don't actually think it's all that bad personally (though not groundbreaking) but in terms of reputation, Vista is a bigger train wreck than even Windows Millennium, and I don't think even Microsoft are completely invulnerable if they're going to take another 5 years to produce the next version. People might be a bit sick of the sight of XP by 2012.

P.S. the mouse is not dead :) As long as there are people in the world who like to sit back at more than arm's length away from their screen, and can't be bothered to keep reaching up to scroll down for example, the mouse is very much alive.

Cleverboy
Dec 13, 2007, 05:16 AM
Yeah right, I'll believe this when I see it. Anyone remember all the features that were supposed to go into Vista? By the time they'd cut everything out in order to release it within this century, we ended up with basically XP with Spotlight, a pretty interface and security in the form of "pester the hell out of the user until he gets frustrated and turns it off". None of the "exciting groundbreaking technology" like the database filesystem made it.

Yeah, disappointing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPEypljdPNQ

I feel bad. Microsoft does great work and aspires high.
Something has happened to them somewhere. I think they need a sofware evangelist, and it absolutely CANNOT be Steve Ballmer. Maybe they can get Guy Kawasaki...? :-) They need to treat the existance of OS X with an open hand too. If Vista is better than OSX, then it should be simple to show it off (better in principle if not reality).

~ CB

Popeye206
Dec 13, 2007, 05:16 AM
Vista isn't a colossal failure. It's actually selling better than XP. And corporations aren't supposed to be talking about their next products? And it's funny how Apple was talking about Leopard more than a year before its original release date of spring, only for it be delayed. And then delayed again, all while crippling some features and removing others.

And the Surface is quite revolutionary, but dumb Apple fanboys wouldn't understand that.

What the heck are you talking about? Vista was talked about for almost 2 years before it finally came! Yes, I think Leopard was probably rushed a bit, but it's not as bad as Vista is in it's first release (I have both). But Within the time that MS started talking about Vista, Apple switched from PowerPC to Intel, Revamped every piece of hardware in it's line-up. No matter what you think, also shipped a revolutionary new product with the iPhone and did a major release with it's OS.... whew... I'm worn out just typing it.

All I got to say to the Windoze Fan Boys that make their way on this thread is just stick with your platform and we'll stick with ours... then we're both happy right? UGH!

As for the MS touch tech.... honestly... I'll believe it when I see it. And besides... who cares???? I'm sure Apple is not sitting back taking a vacation yet and MS will have plenty to mimic by the time Windows 7 is out. I thought I heard it's going to be called MSOSVII. :p

mccldwll
Dec 13, 2007, 05:16 AM
Uhh, Quillz, in case you missed it, the site is called Mac Rumors.com.

You're not providing any sort of balanced, fair commentary, despite your claims to the contrary. You are a MS fanboy, an apologist who deems it necessary to come to a site devoted to the Mac and other Apple products and defend what many people see as being indefensible. Not only does that make you look foolish, but you obviously are a sucker for pain.

You are the classic example of the pot calling the kettle black, a model of hypocrisy that is unfortunately very typical of the vast majority of MS apologists.You are fooling no one here. Please troll somewhere else.


Anyone know if Quillz is a "dvorakian" or an "enderlean", or maybe a straight-up msft employee? Back to the seminal post, if the Beta version is due in 2010, any idea when a functional product might be out?

Europe calling
Dec 13, 2007, 05:23 AM
One of the main touch features will probably be 'control-alt-delete' replaced by a single wipe of your index finger? :D

Evangelion
Dec 13, 2007, 05:32 AM
system specs for XP and Vista?

System-specs for Tiger and Leopard? Looking at official docs, I notice that HD-requirements were tripled, memory-requirements were doubled, support for G3 was dropped entirely....

And note: Tiger was released in april 2005, so that increase in specs took place in about 2.5 years, whereas the increase from XP-specs to Vista-specs took about 6 years. So is it any wonder that system-specs increased more in XP to Vista-transition, than they did in Tiger to Leopard-transition?

Leopard is running (very quickly) on a machine built in April 2004 with only 768MB Ram

Good for you! But your claim that you need a new computer every time you upgrade Windows is false. No, you do not. here's (http://www.msblog.org/index.php/2006/08/18/vista-and-old-computers-will-they-get-along/) an article about Vista on an older machine.

And what about the claim that "you need to buy more Microsoft-software in order to do anything with your computer"? Are you claiming that you do not need to buy ANY additional software for OS X? So far, I have bought Aperture, Pixelmator, iWork and Cha-Ching for OS X, and I thinking about buying Scrivener. Are you saying that OS X has all that functionality built in, and that I wouldn't have had to buy all that software?

And unless you never connect it to the internet ( or are happy to ghost an image back onto a new drive every few weeks) the virus definitions are downloading quietly in the background to keep your computing experience "safe and secure"

Well, XP running on my MBP back home has no antivirus installed at all, and I routinely connect to the internet with it. And, FWIW, OS X on that very same machine installs security-updates every now and then. So what exactly is your point?

Or you've signed up and paid for the new MS solution which for an extra payment on top of the exorbitant price for the OS will protect you from the viruses and worms that their poor product development allowed to be created in the first place!

Um, I haven't done that either. Any additional BS-guesses you would like to make?

Did quillz change his user name or is this Bill now posting because Steve has gone to have a swim in his pool full of ill gotten cash...

Yeah, I'm the ultimate Windows-fanboy. As evidence to support my fanboyishness I preset you with this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=4611530#post4611530) and this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=4611431#post4611431)

Seriously, is your way of thinking that if someone posts utter BS about Windows and/or Microsoft, and I dare to question that BS, I'm obviously a "Microsoft-fanboy" or something like that? That in order to be objective, I should just accept all the BS flinged at Windows? If I say something like "you know, that isn't actually true....", I'm being a Mac-hating Window-fanboy?

Would you believe that I actually use OS X at home and it's my OS of choice? But that can't be, since I'm a Windows-fanboy!

:rolleyes:

Cloudane
Dec 13, 2007, 05:34 AM
One of the main touch features will probably be 'control-alt-delete' replaced by a single wipe of your index finger? :D

Tell that to our director at work, who is using finger swipe technology on a Toshiba laptop. If you listen carefully, you can hear him swearing at it from here :D


As for the troll, it openly admitted to trolling back on page 3 or so. Don't feed it.


I think Microsoft actually did quite well with 2000 and XP (don't kill me). But they somehow really messed things up with Vista. I don't honestly think it's that bad, it works for me (when I'm not using my Mac) but I guess all the delays and dropped features along with the naggy security just put a bitter taste in people's mouths.

Smaugg
Dec 13, 2007, 05:40 AM
Can't this MS people do anything else than copy Apple and Google, and tell us how we are going to be "blown-away" by the next years-from-now bloated piece of vaporware?

Evangelion
Dec 13, 2007, 05:47 AM
Can't this MS people do anything else than copy Apple and Google, and tell us how we are going to be "blown-away" by the next years-from-now bloated piece of vaporware?

What have they copied now? THis touchscreen-technology sounds to me like extension of the technology in the Surface. And that was actually released before iPhone was released....

twoodcc
Dec 13, 2007, 05:58 AM
man, they just keep copying don't they? changing the name of their operating system to match Apple's scheme, and now copying mult-touch.

iCantwait
Dec 13, 2007, 06:05 AM
"snow leopard" will be multi touch *fingers crossed*

iCantwait
Dec 13, 2007, 06:06 AM
What have they copied now? THis touchscreen-technology sounds to me like extension of the technology in the Surface. And that was actually released before iPhone was released....

wikipedia that

igazza
Dec 13, 2007, 06:07 AM
touch screens of death
apple forever :apple:

stevearm
Dec 13, 2007, 06:09 AM
It's amusing seeing the rational people argue with the apple fanboys.

Yes it is.

Although the apple fanboys by themselves provide me with enough amusement

boer
Dec 13, 2007, 06:12 AM
System-specs for Tiger and Leopard? Looking at official docs, I notice that HD-requirements were tripled, memory-requirements were doubled, support for G3 was dropped entirely....

And note: Tiger was released in april 2005, so that increase in specs took place in about 2.5 years, whereas the increase from XP-specs to Vista-specs took about 6 years. So is it any wonder that system-specs increased more in XP to Vista-transition, than they did in Tiger to Leopard-transition?


Note to you: It may have escaped you but Apple is primarely a hardware company. Services (iTunes) come next and then software.

The specs for Leo were upped because of two reasons:
1) To sell more hardware
2) To save on software development (being able to cut really old hardware out)

Try and get your head around those facts. You winboys are really starting to look like douches commenting here based on random observations and feelings. :D

diamond.g
Dec 13, 2007, 06:18 AM
Curious, why are drivers brought up as a bad thing of Windows?


Lets pretend that all video cards were EFI compatible, wouldn't Apple still need drivers to actually talk to all the different hardware? Wouldn't Apple need drivers to talk to say a X-Fi?

I mean most things that Mac users would plug in (mostly USB or Firewire based) wouldn't require drivers to be installed. The things like the eLegato eyeTV have sotware that runs. It isn't like you can plug it in and use iMovie to record stuff.

Anyhow, the main topic really isn't that interesting. It will be at least 3 years before MS lets W7 out of the gates. And even then we are not likely to see all the features they are boasting about now.
Note to you: It may have escaped you but Apple is primarely a hardware company. Services (iTunes) come next and then software.

The specs for Leo were upped because of two reasons:
1) To sell more hardware
2) To save on software development (being able to cut really old hardware out)

Try and get your head around those facts. You winboys are really starting to look like douches commenting here based on random observations and feelings. :D

So you are saying Apple upping specs is okay, but MS upping specs is screwing their users?

jragosta
Dec 13, 2007, 06:18 AM
One of the main touch features will probably be 'control-alt-delete' replaced by a single wipe of your index finger? :D

Or middle finger? :D

geerlingguy
Dec 13, 2007, 06:19 AM
And it's funny how Apple was talking about Leopard more than a year before its original release date of spring, only for it be delayed. And then delayed again, all while crippling some features and removing others.

You do know that Apple, in fact,didn't remove any features, right?

Now, if you're a typical Apple fanboy (as you say some of the other site users are), you probably heard about ZFS support, etc... but Apple never claimed to have these features implemented. Having someone else report on a feature being worked on in OSX doesn't mean Apple announced they'd include the feature.

Methinks you're confusing Apple with Microsoft; Microsoft's Vista was supposed to have 'WinFS' and a thousand and one other revolutionary features that were nothing but vaporware.

kamiboy
Dec 13, 2007, 06:20 AM
God I love these forums, to finally be somewhere where people hate m$ just as much as I do. And what brings me the most deliciously delightful pleasure is to see some whiny pathetic m$ guy come here and stick his d*** in the hornets nest by actually trying to do the impossible and argue how "good" m$ is.

Kind of reminds me of a funny T-shirt I once saw where there was a picture of Hitler holding a bundle of flowers in his hand with the subtitle "But what about all the good things Hitler did?".

Go on, we are all giddy, continue to squirt out "all the good things m$ did." we are all ears, I assure you.

diamond.g
Dec 13, 2007, 06:22 AM
You do know that Apple, in fact,didn't remove any features, right?

Now, if you're a typical Apple fanboy (as you say some of the other site users are), you probably heard about ZFS support, etc... but Apple never claimed to have these features implemented. Having someone else report on a feature being worked on in OSX doesn't mean Apple announced they'd include the feature.

Methinks you're confusing Apple with Microsoft; Microsoft's Vista was supposed to have 'WinFS' and a thousand and one other revolutionary features that were nothing but vaporware.
Wireless TimeMachine backups disagrees with you.

Evangelion
Dec 13, 2007, 06:32 AM
wikipedia that

Let me repeat: what has Microsoft copied now? I'm not disputing the fact that MS has spent large part of their time copying others, but what have they copied now? We get a piece of news that say that next version of Windows will have advanced touch-screen features. And people start screaming that Microsoft is copying Apple. Well, here are few facts: Microsoft demoed their multi-touch technology before Apple demoed theirs. So how exactly could it be claimed that Microsofts multi-touch is a copy of Apple's implementation? This latest announcement seems like extension of Surface, which is already running a modified version of Windows.

Why isn't anyone whining how Apple copied Jeff Han?

Evangelion
Dec 13, 2007, 06:37 AM
Note to you: It may have escaped you but Apple is primarely a hardware company. Services (iTunes) come next and then software.

The specs for Leo were upped because of two reasons:
1) To sell more hardware
2) To save on software development (being able to cut really old hardware out)

Try and get your head around those facts.

Oh, I see.... It's bad for Microsoft to increase hardware-requirements of their new OS when compared to their previous, 6 year old OS, but it's perfectly OK for Apple to increase their hardware-requirements when compared to their previous, 2.5 years old OS because that helps them sell more hardware? Did I get that right?

You winboys are really starting to look like douches commenting here based on random observations and feelings. :D

The fact I dispute BS does not make me a "winboy". Like I said, my OS of choice is OS X. The difference between me and likes of you is that I don't have to resort to lies about other Os'es in order to justify my choice of OS.

And "douche" could be considered a personal attack. you can't present your arguments without resorting to attacking me personally?

Evangelion
Dec 13, 2007, 06:44 AM
You do know that Apple, in fact,didn't remove any features, right?

Well, yeah they did. We were supposed to get wireless TimeMachine. Nowhere to be seen. Some of the photobooth videoeffects they demoed during the keynote mysteriously vanished before ship-date, apple.com told of feature that "deep-freezes" OS X and boots in to Boot Camp-Windows, but that feature vanished before ship-date. Where is resolution-independence?

then there are features which were implemented, but which function differently from what they were described earlier. In the keynote it was said that when you change a file, it gets automatically backed up. Only later did we find out that it's not continuous backup, it's hourly backup.

Now, if you're a typical Apple fanboy (as you say some of the other site users are), you probably heard about ZFS support, etc... but Apple never claimed to have these features implemented. Having someone else report on a feature being worked on in OSX doesn't mean Apple announced they'd include
the feature.

How about features that were demoed to thousands of people during the keynote?

Methinks you're confusing Apple with Microsoft; Microsoft's Vista was supposed to have 'WinFS' and a thousand and one other revolutionary features that were nothing but vaporware.

No arguments here.

Sbrocket
Dec 13, 2007, 06:51 AM
Let me repeat: what has Microsoft copied now? I'm not disputing the fact that MS has spent large part of their time copying others, but what have they copied now? We get a piece of news that say that next version of Windows will have advanced touch-screen features. And people start screaming that Microsoft is copying Apple. Well, here are few facts: Microsoft demoed their multi-touch technology before Apple demoed theirs. So how exactly could it be claimed that Microsofts multi-touch is a copy of Apple's implementation? This latest announcement seems like extension of Surface, which is already running a modified version of Windows.

Why isn't anyone whining how Apple copied Jeff Han?

His point was that Microsoft Surface is still largely a prototype product with nothing shipped to date while the iPhone is an actual product with units shipped to consumers, which is why he was saying "wikipedia that."

I am interested, though, why so many people are comparing Surface and these supposed forthcoming multitouch capabilities in Windows 7. Surely you don't want an input device as bulky as Surface needs to be to incorporate its veritable mashup of components to perform simple tasks like barcode reading and object tracking, in which case the technology behind this rumored stuff would be completely different in every element besides the fact that its some type of multitouch device.

Sbrocket
Dec 13, 2007, 06:54 AM
How about features that were demoed to thousands of people during the keynote?

Can you actually name anything? Certainly Stacks' functionality was changed from the demo at Macworld, but I don't think anyone is questioning a software developer's free license to make design changes to their OS. There's no use in nitpicking things to try and come up for a comparison with what is complete feature removal like was necessary with Longhorn/Vista to get it out even as late as it was. I'm sure there are some other things, but I'm sure you'll excuse me for not having a perfect memory for boding on every little change.

pmoeser
Dec 13, 2007, 06:58 AM
Would you believe that I actually use OS X at home and it's my OS of choice? But that can't be, since I'm a Windows-fanboy!

:rolleyes:

I believe that I don't give a flying what you use at home or work and that as you are prepared to waste more of your time than mine defending the indefensible, and you also use emoticons to prop up an argument, I'm off to bed

rolleyes, rollonfloorlaughingatthetwatwhothinkshessuperiorbecausehelikesmsaswellticon

boer
Dec 13, 2007, 07:03 AM
Oh, I see.... It's bad for Microsoft to increase hardware-requirements of their new OS when compared to their previous, 6 year old OS, but it's perfectly OK for Apple to increase their hardware-requirements when compared to their previous, 2.5 years old OS because that helps them sell more hardware? Did I get that right?


There are couple of points here. First of all, anyone with a computer more than 3 years old is not in a position to assume full support from new commercial software (from Microsoft or Apple).

Secondly, Vista is bloated and runs worse on same hardware compared to XP. I think everyone on the internet agrees on this. When you compare this to Leopard it actually runs the same if not better than Tiger on supported hardware. I can say this from my experiences on iMacs (G5 and Intel C2D).

So what Microsoft basically did was an engineering failure. What Apple did by cutting out the old hardware was by choice. And in case you did not know, they have already announced OS X 10.6 will not support G5. There are four core G5 systems out there that could easily run 10.6 in a few years, but will not be supported by choice made by Apple.

Of course there are those who think this kind of behaviour from Apple is not acceptable but I for one welcome the future not the past.

dernhelm
Dec 13, 2007, 07:11 AM
Vista isn't a colossal failure. It's actually selling better than XP. And corporations aren't supposed to be talking about their next products? And it's funny how Apple was talking about Leopard more than a year before its original release date of spring, only for it be delayed. And then delayed again, all while crippling some features and removing others.

And the Surface is quite revolutionary, but dumb Apple fanboys wouldn't understand that.

Question for you: What do you think the percentage of new Mac purchases are that will uninstall Leopard to reinstall Tiger?

Now answer the question for Vista.

I'm glad you think the fact that Vista is selling _better_ than XP is progress, but the problem for Microsoft is that XP is selling _at all_. Vista took 10 nearly years worth of R&D out of Microsoft - when do you think they'll get paid back for it?

Sure, they can afford to take ridiculous losses, but that isn't the point. Vista is a failure from just about any perspective you can look at - except for one - people are buying new PCs so they are also buying Vista. The fact that a significant number are then installing Vista and reinstalling XP can be shown in one significant statistic; the cost of a new Windows XP license hasn't dropped a penny, and it's sales figures are still pretty high.

notnek
Dec 13, 2007, 07:20 AM
Do you think Microsoft cares that people are re-installing XP after buying Vista? The key thing is they are buying Vista. A sale is a sale, it doesn't matter what the end user does with the end product.

Yep. Companies should keep making terrible products so that customers can keep buying terrible products. Most people are smart enough to stop buying from a company when they realize their end product is a piece. Yes, Microsoft is making money from Vista everyday, but how many of those customers are switching everyday?

Willis
Dec 13, 2007, 07:20 AM
Stacks was crippled. Resolution independence didn't come to realization.

Microsoft stated the reason Vista was delayed, and then delivered it. Apple stated the reason Leopard was delayed, and then delivered it. Both Vista and Leopard were delayed more than once, with features dropped.

Vista being crap is your opinion, and has no bearing on actual comparisons between the two products. OS X was crap up until 10.3. (Ooh, controversial statement right there.)

I agree, my iMac G4 came with 10.0 installed. It was terrible. 10.3 was a really nice OS and 10.4 and 10.5 have basically worked off that while adding a few new features which make it new :rolleyes:

Wow... I can multitouch my bloated Registry...

Look at the way I can reach out and touch my WGA Activation..

Aaargh.. the DLL's are all over my hands... Must wash hands..

Unless Microsoft fundamentally change their management, design team and strategy.... This is not a current threat.

I dont think I've ever laughed so much at a post before

ImageWrangler
Dec 13, 2007, 07:34 AM
Wow... I can multitouch my bloated Registry...

Look at the way I can reach out and touch my WGA Activation..

Aaargh.. the DLL's are all over my hands... Must wash hands..

Unless Microsoft fundamentally change their management, design team and strategy.... This is not a current threat.

Hmmm, where are all the Windoze apologists on this thread to rebuff this one? [crickets] No? I thought not.

In the nearly 100 years leading up to Longho..er, Vista, M$ pumped out far more hype than Apple did on blogs and the M$ fanboys ate it up. We in the IT sector were hearing Vista would cure cancer, save unwanted puppies and kittens, and keep tomato sauces from staining white fabric. It was going to revolutionize computing as we know it, so sayeth M$ and Monkey Boy. And what did we get? A DRM crippleware bloated piece of junk with more pricing levels than new house that was, despite what I think I'm reading by the fanboys here, to most people shackled by a PC running it, totally and unequivocally "meh."

Yeah yeah, LOL, the Windoze fanboys "Vista outsold XP..." um, no, get your facts straight, Vista has had more units in the retail channel, including OEM units and installed units on computer which M$ used those figured to cover what in most circles is pretty much a failure to adopt. And many that have did something poor Windoze users never wound up doing with XP... DOWNGRADING to the previous OS.

So fact one: Vista did not, nor has not, outsold XP.

Fact two: M$ spins more FUD, fanboys buy it and rush to M$'s defense, the rest of the world doesn't

Evangelion
Dec 13, 2007, 07:35 AM
His point was that Microsoft Surface is still largely a prototype product with nothing shipped to date while the iPhone is an actual product with units shipped to consumers, which is why he was saying "wikipedia that."

Surface is not meant for consumers to begin with. It might have shipped in volume and we wouldn't even know it.

Can you actually name anything?

Um, I actually listed few.

Certainly Stacks' functionality was changed from the demo at Macworld, but I don't think anyone is questioning a software developer's free license to make design changes to their OS.

Unless it's Microsoft, right?

There's no use in nitpicking things to try and come up for a comparison with what is complete feature removal like was necessary with Longhorn/Vista to get it out even as late as it was. I'm sure there are some other things, but I'm sure you'll excuse me for not having a perfect memory for boding on every little change.

I already listed features that were mentioned as part of Leopard feature-set, yet were not present in the final shipping product.

thestaton
Dec 13, 2007, 07:40 AM
lulz. this is still 2 / 3 years away and would require anyone to use these features to buy new hardware. hardly innovative and it's hardly page 1 news worthy.

Cloudane
Dec 13, 2007, 07:40 AM
As much as I don't-think-Vista-is-that-bad, I really doubt it's outselling XP in any important way. Bullying OEMs into including it doesn't count, especially given how many customers send it straight back to be downgraded (which costs time and therefore costs MS money), but you can bet that's what they're using for any sales figures.

Evangelion
Dec 13, 2007, 07:43 AM
I believe that I don't give a flying what you use at home or work and that as you are prepared to waste more of your time than mine defending the indefensible, and you also use emoticons to prop up an argument, I'm off to bed

The "defending" we are talking about is just shooting down absurd BS that is being repeated as fact in this thread. There are plenty of negative stuff to say about Microsoft, we don't have to invent new BS for that.

Should I just sit silently when someone says utter BS about Windows? Apparently I do, since if I tried to correct that BS, it just means that I'm a "Windows-fanboy" or some other crap like that. Why do we have to resort to hyperbole and lies in order to justify our OS X-use? If I disagree with some of the most absurd rhetoric said about Windows, it just means I'm a Windows-fanboy? Is that how it works?

There are couple of points here.

"First one being: It's wrong for Microsoft to increase hardware-requirements for their OS, but it's NOT wrong for Apple to do the exact same thing".

First of all, anyone with a computer more than 3 years old is not in a position to assume full support from new commercial software (from Microsoft or Apple).

But in case of Microsoft, that's bad. In case of Apple, it's 100% acceptable.

Secondly, Vista is bloated and runs worse on same hardware compared to XP.

So?

So what Microsoft basically did was an engineering failure. What Apple did by cutting out the old hardware was by choice.

So, it's bad when MS increases hardware-requirements, but it's good when Apple does the exact same thing? Gotcha. Hell, according to you, Apple doesn't even have any technical reason for upping those requirement, they are just doing it because they want more of your money! And you are defending them for that!

No double-standards here! No sirree!

And in case you did not know, they have already announced OS X 10.6 will not support G5.

And if MS announced tomorrow that Windows 7 will not support Pentium 3, you would be up in arms about it.

Of course there are those who think this kind of behaviour from Apple is not acceptable but I for one welcome the future not the past.

And Microsoft does the same, you bitch and moan.

Fuchal
Dec 13, 2007, 07:58 AM
I'm a little bit older than that.

17 and a HALF!!!!!!

boer
Dec 13, 2007, 08:01 AM
Should I just sit silently when someone says utter BS about Windows?

Since you are arguing against comments I haven't made I think it's useless to continue this. :apple:

DMann
Dec 13, 2007, 08:02 AM
Only if they ship now.

By 2010 (+ standard slip) multi-touch will be common-place and so not exactly contributing to wow factor.

As if Apple is going to sit on their asses for the next 5+ years. I do look forward to Windows 7, Windows Tablet+cart on wheels......

statikcat
Dec 13, 2007, 08:06 AM
OF COURSE touch features in 2010+ will be better than the Iphone from 2007! DUH! hahah :D

Evangelion
Dec 13, 2007, 08:08 AM
Since you are arguing against comments I haven't made I think it's useless to continue this. :apple:

Um, it was you who started defending Apple's right to increase hardware-specs of their OS, did you not?

network23
Dec 13, 2007, 08:09 AM
Vista isn't a colossal failure. It's actually selling better than XP. And corporations aren't supposed to be talking about their next products?

It's not how early they begin to talk about the next version, but how soon they start to talk about that next version almost immediately after releasing a major new version.

I doubt you will hear anything about the next version of OS X for at least a year.

Sbrocket
Dec 13, 2007, 08:11 AM
Surface is not meant for consumers to begin with. It might have shipped in volume and we wouldn't even know it.


You cannot assume the positive just because it hasn't been shown NOT to be true - that's a logical fallacy. In any case, the point is that whoever the original poster of that comment was that I'm trying to clarify is this: iPhone is in the hands of its intended users, and Surface is not. That's it...I'm not trying to make some bigger point about the subject.

Um, I actually listed few.

Unless it's Microsoft, right?

I already listed features that were mentioned as part of Leopard feature-set, yet were not present in the final shipping product.

I'm sorry for not reading, in detail, the entire 6-page thread. I did go through and read most of it, and Stacks was the one complaint I noticed.

I never claimed a double standard. Microsoft is certainly free to make design decisions after demoing a product, and people do not (for the most part) complain about those things. What people are complaining about when they mention "missing features" are not simply changes in implementation but COMPLETE REMOVAL of core features that were making the product what it was. I would never claim that either company, Apple or Microsoft, is in the right for removing complete features that were announced and much less demoed.

I picked up a Vista license from the CIO office on campus and tested it out in a mission critical environment (bugs or failures would have/did lead to problems with work I was using Windows for on my MBP) just so I would have some basis to talk about it from, and I encountered no end of problems that a typical user would be completely bewildered about when attempting to perform actions as simple as moving files around. Indeed, I noticed many of my peers on campus that have the exact same problems I noticed since our CIO dept. made the poor choice to "upgrade" to Vista on all newly purchased laptops so soon. Now I'm not going to claim to be the power user to end all power users because I'm not but I have much more technical knowhow that the typical, everyday user (even in a technologically oriented engineering school such as mine) could ever be expected to have and I say Vista is not even worth the $20 I paid for my media, much less the $300+ or whatever ridiculous price the regular end-user price is now. I'm just glad I had the foresight to make a clone of my SP2 environment before I tried "upgrading."

Cheffy Dave
Dec 13, 2007, 08:13 AM
Wow, so the touch features windows PCs will have in 2010 will blow away the ones that have been in stores on iPhones since June?

Bravo, Microsoft. Bravo.

ZACTLY, still waiting for them to get Vista right. My next computer comes with my tax rebate, my first Apple, a 24"i-Mac! buh-bye MS, hell-low :apple:

diamond.g
Dec 13, 2007, 08:17 AM
Note to you: It may have escaped you but Apple is primarely a hardware company. Services (iTunes) come next and then software.

The specs for Leo were upped because of two reasons:
1) To sell more hardware
2) To save on software development (being able to cut really old hardware out)

Try and get your head around those facts. You winboys are really starting to look like douches commenting here based on random observations and feelings. :D

Since you are arguing against comments I haven't made I think it's useless to continue this. :apple:
Whaaa? :confused:

Evangelion
Dec 13, 2007, 08:19 AM
iPhone is in the hands of its intended users, and Surface is not.

Do you know that for sure?

I'm sorry for not reading, in detail, the entire 6-page thread.

I listed those features in the very same message you quoted....

I did go through and read most of it, and Stacks was the one complaint I noticed.

And wireless TimeMachine, and deep-sleeping OS X while booting to Windows, and resolution independence, and some photobooth-effects in iChat, and continuous backups with timeMachine...

What people are complaining about when they mention "missing features" are not simply changes in implementation but COMPLETE REMOVAL of core features that were making the product what it was.

And we ARE talking about features like that here.

I would never claim that either company, Apple or Microsoft, is in the right for removing complete features that were announced and much less demoed.

And Apple has done that.

I picked up a Vista license from the CIO office on campus and tested it out in a mission critical environment (bugs or failures would have/did lead to problems with work I was using Windows for on my MBP) just so I would have some basis to talk about it from, and I encountered no end of problems that a typical user would be completely bewildered about when attempting to perform actions as simple as moving files around. Indeed, I noticed many of my peers on campus that have the exact same problems I noticed since our CIO dept. made the poor choice to "upgrade" to Vista on all newly purchased laptops so soon. Now I'm not going to claim to be the power user to end all power users because I'm not but I have much more technical knowhow that the typical, everyday user (even in a technologically oriented engineering school such as mine) could ever be expected to have and I say Vista is not even worth the $20 I paid for my media, much less the $300+ or whatever ridiculous price the regular end-user price is now. I'm just glad I had the foresight to make a clone of my SP2 environment before I tried "upgrading."

And this is relevant to the discussion.... how? I don't think I have made any claims about Vista being a good OS. I think it's crap.

lazyrighteye
Dec 13, 2007, 08:24 AM
Good for them.
I'm personally more interested in what Apple's touch implementation(s) will look like in 2010. ;)
Should be fun...

e-coli
Dec 13, 2007, 08:25 AM
A friend of mine worked on the user experience design of Vista in its early stages. He described the process as hopelessly moribund due to its size and the structure at Microsoft. I saw the original interface for Vista, and what ended up going to market bore no resemblance whatsoever to the early (and FAR superior) prototypes.

Doubtful that any features in an OS this early on will even make it into the final candidate.

Cheffy Dave
Dec 13, 2007, 08:32 AM
Oh my God, Apple is in big trouble! A Microsoft blogger has announced some cool features will be released sometime after 2010 to counter what Apple products had in 2007! :eek:

:eek:APPLE IS DOOMED???!!!
doomed to attract more PC boys like me!:rolleyes:

nostaws
Dec 13, 2007, 08:33 AM
The mouse is not dead. Touch technology is still in its infancy and has many, many flaws that need to be overcome. Touch technology will ultimately mature and replace the mouse, but it will still take a long while before this happens.

the touch capabilities on the iphone are great. I have seen the microsoft demos of their touch stuff. they are pretty cool.

But, I think that the mouse and keyboard are going to be around for a LONG time. I can type much faster than I can write, with a pencil or finger. And as screens are getting larger, who wants to move their entire arm around on the screen to tap and drag? It will get really tiring. Have you seen how fat and out of shape a lot of us are?

The mouse/trackball/trackpad/etc. is perfect for this task. Also if a laptop had a touch screen and a keyboard up at the same time, you have to hold your arm up to track the screen with your fingers. A pretty uncomfortable way do it. My fingers can go from the screen to the trackpad with very little effort.

ErikCLDR
Dec 13, 2007, 08:38 AM
Yea I bet apple isn't working on anything for their OS.

Windows 7 better come out fast because no one likes Vista. It's coming out in 2010? More like 2100 at the rate Vista came out at, and they didn't even do a good job.

nickane
Dec 13, 2007, 08:39 AM
This thread is hilarious. This site is getting worse and worse. I've never even owned a windows box, but even I agree with most of the pro-windows statements made here (especially the guy who said Apple doesn't make new software compatible with older OS's - my flatmate once couldn't get an airport express to work on a year old powermac G5 cos he hadn't bought panther and I remember having to upgrade to tiger for something equally ridiculous; Windows contrastingly supports far more for far longer, provided it wasn't formatted on a Mac...). It's unbelievable how many of you think that anybody who posts on these forums about how Apple's guilty of a lot of what MS are assumed to be Windows fanboys (or even employees) with some kind of agenda.

Newsflash people: There is nobody dedicated enough to upholding the ubiquity of the Windows platform as to troll Macrumors! There are no Windows fans, the way there are Apple fans. My favourite are those of you who spell it Micro$oft whilst Apple's execs have been embroiled in an options backdating scandal that contrasts somewhat with Bill Gates' decision to give away most of his money to charity and relinquish his position as the richest man in the world.

What interests me most about this article is that Windows is rebranding back towards version numbers (another example of Windows copying apple according to someone in this thread). I wonder what constitutes full version increments since 3.1?

I'm guessing 95, XP and Vista, or 95, 98 and XP, but I don't have a clue. With so many dud OS's (2000, ME, Vista...), I would like to know which ones MS thought constituted a big enough overhaul to give them a new number? I realize that I'm probably asking in the wrong place, but does anyone know?

Teddy's
Dec 13, 2007, 08:46 AM
My favourite are those of you who spell it Micro$oft whilst Apple's execs have been embroiled in an options backdating scandal that contrasts somewhat with Bill Gates' decision to give away most of his money to charity and relinquish his position as the richest man in the world.

Meh! of the day.

guzhogi
Dec 13, 2007, 08:47 AM
Hopefully this'll bring up some friendly competition between MS & Apple to make better products.

heatmiser
Dec 13, 2007, 08:50 AM
This thread is hilarious. This site is getting worse and worse. I didn't even bother to read the thread, as I knew it would simply be a call to arms for people who associated their personal values as human beings with...operating systems for inanimate machines.


What interests me most about this article is that Windows is rebranding back towards version numbers (another example of Windows copying apple according to someone in this thread). I wonder what constitutes full version increments since 3.1?

...I would like to know which ones MS thought constituted a big enough overhaul to give them a new number? I realize that I'm probably asking in the wrong place, but does anyone know?

Every major Microsoft release has had a version number. You can look this up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Windows) on Wikipedia. They simply haven't called the OSes by those names in marketing.

eastcoastsurfer
Dec 13, 2007, 08:52 AM
ZACTLY, still waiting for them to get Vista right. My next computer comes with my tax rebate, my first Apple, a 24"i-Mac! buh-bye MS, hell-low :apple:

It seems like if you want the best from Apple right now you should buy a itouch or iphone. They've let the MacPros flounder. The quality of the MBP has dropped significantly (fn' keyboard issues they refuse to acknowledge and fix). Leopard is a step back in a lot of areas (look at network printing, stacks implementation, multiple desktop implementation, wireless network issues, time machine backup drives, etc...) Look at their apps, like iMovie..wtf?

Your iMac may end up being a nice machine. Personally I'm starting to wonder is OSX is worth paying for premium hardware, when it isn't so premium anymore.

hyddan
Dec 13, 2007, 08:55 AM
That tech had obviously not had a look at the old fingerworks pads. I got one here and you can do pretty much anything combining finger movements on a flat surface (including program your own commands with most movements).

Microsoft do have some talented people in there somewhere so it will be interesting to see what they can cook up.

Would be nice if anyone could finally evolve the mouse+keyboard hassle.

AidenShaw
Dec 13, 2007, 08:58 AM
With so many dud OS's (2000, ME, Vista...), I would like to know which ones MS thought constituted a big enough overhaul to give them a new number? I realize that I'm probably asking in the wrong place, but does anyone know?

Windows NT 4 is v4
Windows 2000 is v5
Windows XP is v5.1
Windows Vista is v6.0

When you start a command window on XP, you'll see:

Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

On Vista, it's:

Microsoft Windows [Version 6.0.6000]
(C) Copyright 2006 Microsoft Corp.

This is the number returned by the "get OS version" APIs in Windows.

Teddy's
Dec 13, 2007, 09:00 AM
Hopefully this'll bring up some friendly competition between MS & Apple to make better products.

Yup, That's the best part.

While marketing rolls out more PC vs Mac ads. That's ok. For all business, cash is blood. Let everything flow and enjoy the show.

nickane
Dec 13, 2007, 09:13 AM
Windows NT 4 is v4
Windows 2000 is v5
Windows XP is v5.1
Windows Vista is v6.0

When you start a command window on XP, you'll see:



On Vista, it's:



This is the number returned by the "get OS version" APIs in Windows.

Cheers, Aiden, should've known it'd be you who'd answer me. I've never used half those versions and never pay attention to the DOS bit in startup. Don't let the naysayers get you down, fingers crossed for the midrange tower in '08. I desperately need one to buy me the time with which to save up for a Rev B. MP which I'm expecting about the same time as Windows 7.

Sped
Dec 13, 2007, 09:17 AM
I'm surprised that so many people rated this article negatively. Competition is good and will keep Apple strong.

Consultant
Dec 13, 2007, 09:18 AM
incomprehensible babbling

XP to Vista = 7 years
Hum, let me guess Vista to 7 is how many years? Could it be another 7 years for their alpha release?

Is that you Ballmer? You monkey boy should know that in 7 years your knockoff that is named Windows (which we all know acts as a broken Mac OS) will still not match the iPhone technology of today.

Also, how many years has that cripple of a windows mobile been on the market? iPhone even the 1.0 version is already running circles around it. You do know the iPhone is named by Time magazine as Invention of the Year?

brianus
Dec 13, 2007, 09:19 AM
You're saying that 10 year old Microsoft software runs fine on Vista, but OS X somehow breaks software with new releases? I have to ask, because it seems so ludicrous.

Uh, have you ever used either of these operating systems? Apple routinely breaks compatibility without a care. You can argue for or against that, and there are good arguments on both sides, but it's a fact. I haven't even upgraded to Leopard yet because of all the 3rd party programs I use that either don't work with it or have issues that the developers haven't yet patched. By contrast, I'm running Vista in Parallels on my Mac Pro, running some software that's more than 12 years old (yes, Windows 3.1 software in a couple cases!). Again, there are good and bad things about requiring an OS to provide such extensive compatibility, but it's a fact most folks acknowledge: MS makes a pretty significant effort in this area. (note that I'm referring to software compatibility. When it comes to supporting old hardware, particularly peripherals, they continue to suck hard).

AidenShaw
Dec 13, 2007, 09:21 AM
Cheers, Aiden, should've known it'd be you who'd answer me. I've never used half those versions and never pay attention to the DOS bit in startup.

The number is displayed as the heading in any command shell window, ("term.app") not at boot time during the "BIOS graphics" phase of startup.

The command shell actually has nothing to do with actual DOS code, it's a native 32-bit or 64-bit shell that happens to implement an enhanced successor to the old DOS command language. (I've seen people claim that the command terminal was "proof" that XP and Vista have a 16-bit kernel ;) )


Don't let the naysayers get you down, fingers crossed for the midrange tower in '08.

I'm expecting Jobs to say "and one more thing for you, Aiden" when he introduces the new mini-tower.


I desperately need one to buy me the time with which to save up for a Rev B. MP which I'm expecting about the same time as Windows 7.

Windows 7 is just an informal term for the current development stream. They'll probably come out with another Canadian codename for the beta, and a different silly name for the final product.

notnek
Dec 13, 2007, 09:21 AM
Good for them.
I'm personally more interested in what Apple's touch implementation(s) will look like in 2010. ;)
Should be fun...

agreed. who cares what microsoft does. apple is my company of choice as well as my family's.

Jaymes
Dec 13, 2007, 09:31 AM
I'm sure this will be have all the awesomeness that the Zune had to offer.

Perhaps it will be just as cool as this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZrr7AZ9nCY

buymeaniphone
Dec 13, 2007, 09:36 AM
Thats microsoft's problem, they take 5 years to release technology that Apple is already producing. I've seen the touch screen tables microsoft put out for demo and I'll admit that its pretty cool, but how long will it take before I can have one of those in my office? 10 years, 15 years?

samarks
Dec 13, 2007, 09:40 AM
Microsoft, since the dawn of time, has been famous for announcing 'features' long before products are more than a dream to steer buyers away from competitors. Wasn't this old like 10 years ago? Also kind of a desperate cry for attention. "How come the cool kids get all the attention? What about us?"

nickane
Dec 13, 2007, 09:40 AM
i think the surface is supposed to be coming to market mid-2008 actually.

plumbingandtech
Dec 13, 2007, 09:48 AM
More like Windows 70.

bretm
Dec 13, 2007, 09:51 AM
I think Windows 7 is slated to be released as soon as 2009. Vista's delayed release was exceptionally unusual. Remember that before Vista, major versions of Windows were being released every 2-3 years, just like OS X.

Ummm --- OS X. 7 years old. 6 versions. Do your math.

Consultant
Dec 13, 2007, 09:51 AM
Windows NT 4 is v4
Windows 2000 is v5
Windows XP is v5.1
Windows Vista is v6.0

When you start a command window on XP, you'll see:


.

LOL

Windows 95: v4.0.950
Windows 98: v4.10.1998
In three years they surely made a lot of progress.

Released: February 2000, Windows 2000: v5.0.3700.6690
Released: September 2000, Windows Me: v4.90.3000
Looks like the quality is so bad, the windows version has to be reduced by 0.1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Windows

tny
Dec 13, 2007, 09:56 AM
Vista isn't a colossal failure. It's actually selling better than XP. And corporations aren't supposed to be talking about their next products? And it's funny how Apple was talking about Leopard more than a year before its original release date of spring, only for it be delayed. And then delayed again, all while crippling some features and removing others.

And the Surface is quite revolutionary, but dumb Apple fanboys wouldn't understand that.

How much does MS pay for astroturfing nowadays? You must know, because let's face it, the only way you'd be making the "Vista isn't a colossal failure. It's actually selling better than XP" statement is if you were being fed talking points by MS marketing. Compare the percentage of systems upgraded to Vista since release to the percentage of systems upgraded from 2K/98/ME at the same point in XP's release cycle, and I think you'll see why everyone in the industry sees Vista as a disaster.

tny
Dec 13, 2007, 09:59 AM
LOL

Windows 95: v4.0.950
Windows 98: v4.10.1998
In three years they surely made a lot of progress.

Released: February 2000, Windows 2000: v5.0.3700.6690
Released: September 2000, Windows Me: v4.90.3000
Looks like the quality is so bad, the windows version has to be reduced by 0.1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Windows

You can't compare Windows 98 and Windows 2K version numbers. 2K is a version of Windows NT (the successor to NT4), ME is a version of Windows (the successor to Windows 98). Windows NT was a ground-up rewrite, analogous to OS X. The version numbers are disjoint because Windows NT and Windows 95/98/ME were sold simultaneously, unlike Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X.

NAG
Dec 13, 2007, 10:01 AM
I mostly like the bit where a tech demo is called revolutionary. Wake me when this stuff is actually shipped. If you want to know why, look at Longhorn's feature list just after they first announced it. Ignore the amount of time it took them to ship the thing. Just look at the feature list and look at what actually got shipped.

space1nvaders
Dec 13, 2007, 10:02 AM
Why do I always hear about stuff that Windows is supposed to be doing in some distant future? MS is always getting into new things after other companies have already mastered it. Like Live Search vs Google, Gadgets vs Widgets, etc. Keyboards or Stylus were leading edge technology for MS before the iPhone. Everyone said customers would not like the touch screen keyboard before Apple proved them wrong. Now MS is going to blow away the iPhone in 2010??? Who the heck is running the show in Redmond???

Clive At Five
Dec 13, 2007, 10:03 AM
You guys can go ahead and laugh all you want about Windows, but let me tell you something: Microsoft may look like a big dumb ogre, but they're not complete idiots. They know that Vista is a bust. They know they are losing users to Apple and they know that if they don't do anything about it, they're going to suffer, big time.

Windows 7 is Microsoft's way of turning over a new leaf. They've already written a new, super small (40MB in-use), non-cluttered Kernel (called MinWin), and from there will rebuild windows in the way Vista was meant to be rebuilt. Windows 7 will be lean and it will be fast. It will, for the first time, be a worthy competitor to Mac OS X, and it will get done on time (or heads WILL roll......... Balmer).

Microsoft has the manpower to do it too. They just need the organization that they've never had before. The main reason for delayed OSes is bad management and legacy support. If Microsoft follows this path (and I think they've resolved their managment issues), they will once again become a force to be reckoned with.

This last decade has been an "easy" one for Apple. Windows has been the sleeping giant. But now it's awake and it is MAD. It's no longer going to be a walk in the park for Apple. This excites me, too, because it'll bring greater competition, and henceforth greater innovation between the two companies. It's a great time to be not only a Mac user, but a Windows user as well. Their side of things are about to get considerably better, I feel.

-Clive

gnasher729
Dec 13, 2007, 10:08 AM
One of the main touch features will probably be 'control-alt-delete' replaced by a single wipe of your index finger? :D

No, you'll have to take a tissue and wipe the screen clean :rolleyes:

Consultant
Dec 13, 2007, 10:12 AM
You guys can go ahead and laugh all you want about Windows, but let me tell you something: Microsoft may look like a big dumb ogre, but they're not complete idiots. They know that Vista is a bust. They know they are losing users to Apple and they know that if they don't do anything about it, they're going to suffer, big time.

Windows 7 is Microsoft's way of turning over a new leaf. They've already written a new, super small (40MB in-use), non-cluttered Kernel (called MinWin), and from there will rebuild windows in the way Vista was meant to be rebuilt. Windows 7 will be lean and it will be fast. It will, for the first time, be a worthy competitor to Mac OS X, and it will get done on time (or heads WILL roll......... Balmer).

Microsoft has the manpower to do it too. They just need the organization that they've never had before. The main reason for delayed OSes is bad management and legacy support. If Microsoft follows this path (and I think they've resolved their managment issues), they will once again become a force to be reckoned with.

This last decade has been an "easy" one for Apple. Windows has been the sleeping giant. But now it's awake and it is MAD. It's no longer going to be a walk in the park for Apple. This excites me, too, because it'll bring greater competition, and henceforth greater innovation between the two companies. It's a great time to be not only a Mac user, but a Windows user as well. Their side of things are about to get considerably better, I feel.

-Clive

Hold on, I thought that WAS the goal of Vista, to have it written from the ground up? Seems like wishful thinking. Look at Vista now, Vista is suppose to be an improvement on XP... So an improvement on Vista would be like Mac OS 7?

Antares
Dec 13, 2007, 10:17 AM
That Microsoft blog post is really pointless. It's basically like a Honda engineer saying that they're developing a car that will be released in the future that gets better fuel economy and efficiency than a Toyota Prius released last year. Well, I hope so. A product that is released several years AFTER a product that is currently on the market better be more advanced/refined. I think the post was made to show that not just Apple is working on multi-touch software/devices but also Microsoft. To let consumers know that they are in "the game" and Apple is not the only company to turn to if they want touch control. Apple is clearly focused on further developing and advancing multi-touch. By the time Windows 7 is released, Apple will likely also have multi-touch integrated with the OS with many more features than the limited amount available on the iPhone/iPod Touch.

And....what's wrong with being a fanboy/fangirl? If there's a company who makes products you like, a sports team you love, a movie or tv series you really enjoy....what's wrong with supporting them and telling others about their greatness? I enjoy Apple products and really like the company. I'm proud to be an Apple fanboy.

dejo
Dec 13, 2007, 10:19 AM
Microsoft stated the reason Vista was delayed, and then delivered it. Apple stated the reason Leopard was delayed, and then delivered it. Both Vista and Leopard were delayed more than once, with features dropped.
Wrong. Leopard was only delayed once.

mozmac
Dec 13, 2007, 10:20 AM
This will get scrapped a year before launch of Windows 7 because they couldn't get it working. Windows 7 will end up being a theme update to Vista with more "Confirmation" dialog boxes.

iMikeT
Dec 13, 2007, 10:20 AM
Yeah... By 2010 (or even after considering all the delays that are probably encountered along the way) Microsoft will indeed blow away today's iPhone. By 2010, Apple will also blow away today's iPhone and raise the bar years above and ahead of Microsoft.

RoboCop001
Dec 13, 2007, 10:23 AM
You guys can go ahead and laugh all you want about Windows, but let me tell you something: Microsoft may look like a big dumb ogre, but they're not complete idiots. They know that Vista is a bust. They know they are losing users to Apple and they know that if they don't do anything about it, they're going to suffer, big time.

Windows 7 is Microsoft's way of turning over a new leaf. They've already written a new, super small (40MB in-use), non-cluttered Kernel (called MinWin), and from there will rebuild windows in the way Vista was meant to be rebuilt. Windows 7 will be lean and it will be fast. It will, for the first time, be a worthy competitor to Mac OS X, and it will get done on time (or heads WILL roll......... Balmer).

Microsoft has the manpower to do it too. They just need the organization that they've never had before. The main reason for delayed OSes is bad management and legacy support. If Microsoft follows this path (and I think they've resolved their managment issues), they will once again become a force to be reckoned with.

This last decade has been an "easy" one for Apple. Windows has been the sleeping giant. But now it's awake and it is MAD. It's no longer going to be a walk in the park for Apple. This excites me, too, because it'll bring greater competition, and henceforth greater innovation between the two companies. It's a great time to be not only a Mac user, but a Windows user as well. Their side of things are about to get considerably better, I feel.

-Clive

So wait a minute, I think I get what you're saying..... by my calculations, and by adding up all your words here with a abacus, we will have ......... Star Trek computers in 10 years!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek::eek::eek:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

plumbingandtech
Dec 13, 2007, 10:27 AM
Consultant and Antares,

You are abs. correct. Vista was supposed to be windows version to end all windows version and ended up being 5 years late and sucking harder then XP.

For some Microsoft blogger to write this is indeed some frustrated employee, jealous of Apple's attention. I experienced this first hand as I went to a 4th of July party and one of the guests there was a MS person who, as I passed the iphone around, (to EVERYONE's amazement ) he would just say Windows Mobile already did that, or it would do that,but he could not keep his eyes off my iphone.

Microsoft people are seriously jealous, as they WISHED they worked for Giant that didn't suck or released mediocrity after mediocrity.

And every time there is an announcement where MS tries to grab apple limelite, just like this one is, some fool will post how THIS TIME microsoft is going to raise up and produce great product and smash Apple.

Try again fools.

Below average products are in MS's DNA. It is almost like you wanted your hair color to "just change" overnight. Not without a whole lot of dye can this happen to MS, and even then it will look like a cheap Zune-like dye job.

Kwill
Dec 13, 2007, 10:27 AM
Touch "technology" is already in Windows. Everyone I know with it is always putting his fist through the display, grabbing and hurling it to the floor, or otherwise manhandling Windows machines.
:D

diamond.g
Dec 13, 2007, 10:28 AM
Hold on, I thought that WAS the goal of Vista, to have it written from the ground up? Seems like wishful thinking. Look at Vista now, Vista is suppose to be an improvement on XP... So an improvement on Vista would be like Mac OS 7?


From Vista Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista):
The original "Longhorn", based on the Windows XP source code, was scrapped, and Vista development started anew, building on the Windows Server 2003 codebase, and re-incorporating only the features that would be intended for an actual operating system release

That happened around 2004. Vista was supposed to come out around 2003 and "Blackcomb" (Windows 7) was supposed to be what Vista was supposed to be. Sadly it looked like MS got caught up in Feature/Requirement creap (I hate that with a passion btw).

chameleon81
Dec 13, 2007, 10:32 AM
they have copied apple once again

what ? what about tablet pcs ?

dejo
Dec 13, 2007, 10:37 AM
what ? what about tablet pcs ?
Touché.

Yeah, some people whip out that "Microsoft is copying Apple again" line far too easily.

bredlo
Dec 13, 2007, 10:39 AM
Hey, I hope he's right! While I'm not a fan of MS, Windoze or anything else on the PC side... we need more than just one company to be responsible for innovation in the tech industry. MS has been copying Apple for DECADES, so it's easy to assume they're just blowing more smoke, a la the Zune, Vista, etc.

But if they DO come up with something worth more than a passing glance, I know Apple will find a way to yet again leapfrog it, and THAT'S good for every Mac user!

dizastor
Dec 13, 2007, 10:46 AM
(Apple = survives because of the fanboys).

I completely agree.

As marketshare grows, more people get to touch Apple products. People who buy Apple products end up telling their friends to buy Apple products. Once people use Apple products on a daily basis, you can't help getting hooked. (Unless you're a bitter angry cynic who has a hard time letting go of your old comfortable ways.)

The only reason there are so many fanboys for Mac OS is because they know a few tricks that OS X has and they can do some pretty complicated things that OS X makes really easy to do for the average user. You throw them into the Windows world and they can't even set up a LAN.

As a former windows zealot and mac hater myself I find this statement to be ridiculous. You're claiming that Windows is better because it's harder for the average user?

I am a Apple fanboy. I am also tech support for an office full of Windows PCs and servers. I regretfully provide windows support for my friends and family. I know how to do some "pretty complicated stuff" on both Macs and PCs.

In my mind, 90% of users are "average" users, maybe higher. Why should setting up a LAN be complicated? Why should you take pride in being one of a select few that knows how to use an operating system to it's highest potential? Should power and ease be mutually exclusive?

I want to work on my computer, be it Mac or PC. I want to run Photoshop, Illustrator, Indesign, Final Cut Pro, Terminal, Textmate, Suitcase and Mail at once and never encounter a hiccup. If something crashes, I want to be able to keep working without incident.

I want to be productive, I don't want to have to be a tech support guru to get my work done. If windows could have allowed me to work with the same ease, I probably would have never considered a switch, but since I have switched I am an Apple fanboy.

VoodooDaddy
Dec 13, 2007, 10:50 AM
I made it to page 2 of this thread and came to the realization that Quillz is either Bill Gates or Steve Ballmer.

Orng
Dec 13, 2007, 10:52 AM
Ooh, i wonder if this will be as earth-shattering as Microsoft's iPod killer One things for sure though, this article pretty much ensures that my next macbook will have multi-touch. Thanks!

... There's a reason terms like "Mactard" are quite pervasive these days ...

And that reason is; some people think that calling other people childish names is a meaningful contribution to a conversation. And the ones that are older than 18 have need to grow up.

And Mactard and Fanboy are in the same category as Micro$oft or WinDoze as far as I'm concerned.


And if MS announced tomorrow that Windows 7 will not support Pentium 3, you would be up in arms about it.


If someone in 2010-ish trying to install Windows 7 system on a Pentium three, I'd like to direct them to any number of refurbishers, repo-depots, and off-lease resellers where they can probably find a nice 3-year-old Dell Core 2 Duo for $200 that will easily run the basic edition of Windows 7. Not the supreme edition with all the

And I'm not down on the Pentium three; one of our main edit suites is a P3 running Windows NT, and man, it's rock-solid. I'm shocked every time I sit down at that machine. But I'm not dumb enough to think I can upgrade it, and frankly we're not going to put the money into it, but it works perfectly.

Clive At Five
Dec 13, 2007, 11:03 AM
Hold on, I thought that WAS the goal of Vista, to have it written from the ground up? Seems like wishful thinking. Look at Vista now, Vista is suppose to be an improvement on XP... So an improvement on Vista would be like Mac OS 7?

Actually, the original purpose of "Longhorn" (Vista) was to update XP as a hold-over before "Blackcomb" which is now "Windows 7." It began pulling features from Blackcomb and Longhorn started some feature creepaction. At this point (mid 2004) with a lot of the update features (and things you see in Vista today) intact, Microsoft killed the "update of XP" idea and then started fresh. They basically took a year to reorganize (Sound familiar? Copland......) and chugged out today's Vista in a year and a half.

I think it was intended to be a complete rebuild, but coming from the roots of the XP-add-on history, the features were designed as enhancements to XP, so that's what the OS ended up being.

Now they're on to the actual Blackcomb and the blunder of longhorn is a mistake they will *try* never make again. I think, however, they realize that this is more of a do-or-die situation. If they release another crappy OS, it's over for them. Linux and Mac OS will conquer all.

EDIT: Wow, beat by a long-shot by Diamond.G. Thanks for the backup, though. ;)

-Clive

gkarris
Dec 13, 2007, 11:12 AM
Innovative MS Windows Touch computer in 2010, or OS X Touch Devices (iPhone or iPod Touch) today...

(continues snoozing...)

Bad Paper
Dec 13, 2007, 11:14 AM
seems to me like the blog article in question is simply good old FUD

JGowan
Dec 13, 2007, 11:14 AM
Do you think Microsoft cares that people are re-installing XP after buying Vista? The key thing is they are buying Vista. A sale is a sale, it doesn't matter what the end user does with the end product.The key thing should be that they are satisfying their customers. If their next-gen OS is so buggy and unusable that people are going back to the previous one, what type of confindence does that inspire? What type of loyalty does that create? I think if Steve Jobs was getting word that many of Leopard customers were reinstalling Tiger, he'd do everything in his power to fix Leopard to get keep those customers happy. Your "KEY" vision is extremely short-sighted.

princigalli
Dec 13, 2007, 11:20 AM
The mouse is not dead. Touch technology is still in its infancy and has many, many flaws that need to be overcome. Touch technology will ultimately mature and replace the mouse, but it will still take a long while before this happens.

The mouse is not dead because there is no substitute for it at the moment, but it doesn't mean it's not obsolete. It's just like dish washing machines and automobiles... everybody knows there was no progress for the past 30 years, and that manufacturers could be doing a lot better. But because nobody does anything decently new we are all forced to use obsolete technology.

Same for the iphone. It took Apple to show phone companies an alternative interface. Companies like Sony and Nokia were only competing on gadget add ons, basically third party technology that they license. But they did nothing to improve their base products.

Competition doesn't always mean progress. It just means marketing and price wars with no improvements. Look at PC cases. In 20 years none of the many thousands that came out ever managed to look half way decent.

Eraserhead
Dec 13, 2007, 11:20 AM
This last decade has been an "easy" one for Apple. Windows has been the sleeping giant.

You've made an interesting post, and although to an extent this is true, remember that in 1983 MS was given full access to Apple's Mac software code (If they didn't copy it for Windows they were far stupider than if they used it), and it took them 12 years to fully take advantage of that, now they did make it a lot better in that time, more so than Apple did, but that was a long time, and MS was a far more innovative company then.

FWIW on any computer bigger than an iPod I'd rather use a Mouse/Trackpad and keyboard as it requires far less hand movement, though an "Apple style" trackpad with two-finger-ness is very useful!

eRondeau
Dec 13, 2007, 11:21 AM
As long as there's a one-touch "CTRL-ALT-DEL" button. It'll be used a lot. :apple:

gkarris
Dec 13, 2007, 11:30 AM
As long as there's a one-touch "CTRL-ALT-DEL" button. It'll be used a lot. :apple:

It'll need to be a hard button like on the iPhone (home button) since you need to be RUNNING the OS to recognize touch screen jestures...

pejusdas
Dec 13, 2007, 11:31 AM
Well what can I say. Apple has always been ahead of the game by years. The next version of windows is due in 2010. Add a few more years for Microsoft's punctuality in releasing products. By then Apple would have taken another 10 years leap ahead of anybody in the market and we'll have similar news about various companies trying to compete with Apple. The best they (other companies) can do is feel better now about topping Apple 10 years hence. That's the closest they can get. :cool:

Evangelion
Dec 13, 2007, 11:41 AM
If someone in 2010-ish trying to install Windows 7 system on a Pentium three, I'd like to direct them to any number of refurbishers, repo-depots, and off-lease resellers where they can probably find a nice 3-year-old Dell Core 2 Duo for $200 that will easily run the basic edition of Windows 7. Not the supreme edition with all the

The point of my comment was that on the one hand, he was complaining because MS increased system-requirement in the XP - Vista-transition, while he merrily described how Apple is also increasing system-requirements and dropping support for older processors. His comment was basically that MS is wrong in increasing system-regs, whereas there's nothing wrong with Apple doing the exactly same thing. Hell, he even went on to describe how Vista is slower on same hardware as XP is (which is propably true) and how keeps getting faster with each release. And that means that whereas MS is actually justified in increasing system-regs (since the OS would be too slow on older hardware), Apple has no such reason, since the OS just keeps on getting faster. According to him, the only reason Apple increases the system-regs of OS X is that they could sell more hardware.

And he said all that like it was a good thing. And he said all that while complaining about Microsoft increasing system-regs for Vista.

Digital Skunk
Dec 13, 2007, 11:49 AM
I say bring it on. I would love to see some competition on the OS side of things. Mac OS X is wonderful, but Apple continuously cripples the hardware and creates nice looking machines with very littler performance variations. I would love to see Windows being able to compete blow for blow with Mac OS X, or Mac OS X running on PCs so that we can get some kick @$$ hardware to run a beautiful OS. Otherwise, Apple will always be slightly behind in the hardware bracket.

himansk
Dec 13, 2007, 11:50 AM
remember when vista/longhorn was announced?? it was supposed to be revolutionary and change everything on PCs. we all know how revolutionary it really is when it came out. every feature announced 2-3 years before it actually comes out can be called revolutionary, but the real revolutionary features are the ones that are delivered and done right.
imagine apple announcing the iphone features 3yrs ago, it would still have been revolutionary but by the time they released it, it would have been copied by everyone else andthe features themselves would have lost their value. Its important to have vision of what the requirements of the users will be when the product comes out, and trying to fulfill those requirements, rather than trying to fulfill today's user's requirements 3 yrs in the future.

Clive At Five
Dec 13, 2007, 11:52 AM
Well what can I say. Apple has always been ahead of the game by years. The next version of windows is due in 2010. Add a few more years for Microsoft's punctuality in releasing products. By then Apple would have taken another 10 years leap ahead of anybody in the market and we'll have similar news about various companies trying to compete with Apple. The best they (other companies) can do is feel better now about topping Apple 10 years hence. That's the closest they can get. :cool:

Sheer arrogance.

Vista (albeit slow and unstable) caught up to Tiger feature-wise. With a reinvigorated MS, their next release will compete directly with Leopard and 10.6, and it will come as close to matching and beating it as MS has ever come before.

And thanks to the historical recap by Eraserhead, it's not always the features that win. If you'll recall, back in the 80s, MS had full-access to the Mac OS, so all the while they were playing catch-up, but they had better partnerships and marketing that put them over-the-top, not to mention the detrimental effect of Apple fighting amongst itself over the Apple II and the Macintosh.

Microsoft has the opportunity here to regain (or at least retain) the public's opinion of them... and after the blunder of Vista, I would think they would take every opporunity they have to do so.

-Clive

zmonster
Dec 13, 2007, 11:53 AM
yeah.

aarond12
Dec 13, 2007, 11:54 AM
OMG! Everyone panic! A full-power computer can out-power a handheld consumer phone!

I don't care how many features are in Windows 7. It matters if the new features never show up (like many of the advanced features of Vista that they couldn't get working and finally dropped from the final version).

Vaporware, Micro$oft. Make products, not promises.

IJ Reilly
Dec 13, 2007, 11:55 AM
I think Windows 7 is slated to be released as soon as 2009. Vista's delayed release was exceptionally unusual. Remember that before Vista, major versions of Windows were being released every 2-3 years, just like OS X.

Hardly! Windows95 was delayed numerous times (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE1DB1038F932A15751C1A962958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all), so much so that it was becoming an industry joke. In fact Microsoft named the new OS Windows95 because they needed the internal commitment to shipping it in 1995 (five years after the release of Windows 3.0). Otherwise, it probably would have crept into 1996. As for OSX, by far the longest interval between releases was between Tiger and Leopard, 2.5 years. The average interval between the other releases was about one year.

diamond.g
Dec 13, 2007, 11:55 AM
I say bring it on. I would love to see some competition on the OS side of things. Mac OS X is wonderful, but Apple continuously cripples the hardware and creates nice looking machines with very littler performance variations. I would love to see Windows being able to compete blow for blow with Mac OS X, or Mac OS X running on PCs so that we can get some kick @$$ hardware to run a beautiful OS. Otherwise, Apple will always be slightly behind in the hardware bracket.

OS X will never be sold to run on beige box pc's. Too much hardware for Apple to provide support for. They don't have the experience. They can't do it.

Windows won't ever be able to compete with OS X. OS X is too targeted (hardware wise) for Microsoft to even bother. They don't have the experience. They can't do it.


:D

elgruga
Dec 13, 2007, 11:55 AM
Microsoft are a really disgusting and nasty set of greedy bastards.
They suck people in to their vileness because they are the 'established' power, like everyone once thought that DDT was great for making the garden 'weed' free.

Why would anyone think that a touch screen will make a bad system (windows) better?
Its called putting lipstick on the pig. Its a crass attempt to make something look like something else.

I am SICK of hearing about Microsoft and their garbage. Why be polite?
They have innovated NOTHING, they stand for a system that sees one or two men with billions of dollars while the world is full of poor people who cant get a drink of fresh water.
(Yes, I know Steve Jobs has a ton of cash, but he is NOT a complete idiot.)

Then they lie and cheat and steal and we are supposed to make nice calm comments about their bloody crap?
NO.

Time for Microsoft to go down the toilet - and that time, happily, is coming.

The stupid, stupid table is the silliest piece of vanity garbage ever - I thought the jokes about it would kill the touch nonsense, but no.
Still we have 'touch screen' speculation, when its somewhat obvious that it works well on the iPhone, but simply ADDING it to any product is like putting sugar in everything because its good in chocolate.

The real reason that the 'touch' thing wont do well on a computer is ergonomics; a large screen must be about 2.5 feet away when viewing it, and that precludes reaching out to 'touch' it, because the reach of most humans when sitting face on to a screen is slightly less than 2.5 feet.

Touch works with very small screens held at 12 - 15 inches away, the holding arm bent, cradling the device, free hand touching screen.

Anything bigger than an iPhone will be too big to hold and way too big to hold close to the face.

On a laptop? Hmmm - maybe, maybe.

We have REMOTE control devices because of these proximity issues - perhaps you'd like a touch screen TV so that every time you want to change the channel you have to go over to the TV and touch it?
No, didnt think so. Pass the REMOTE.

The Mouse is a remote control device, and a touch screen is a tactile piece of tech when using a small personal device.

Its all just more Microsoft bollocks. Ignore it. Use OS X, use Linux, use anything but windows - lets kill this insane bloated beast - it represents ALL thats bad in human society.

YES, I really mean that last sentence.

Digital Skunk
Dec 13, 2007, 11:56 AM
Its important to have vision of what the requirements of the users will be when the product comes out, and trying to fulfill those requirements, rather than trying to fulfill today's user's requirements 3 yrs in the future.

The main problem with Windows' software engineers. They lack the vision or the wherewithal to change the way people use computers for the better. Instead they attempt to solve current problems with computing, and enhance the way people use computers today, three years from now.

Much of the features in Vista are wonderful, but they are all features that Linux and Mac OS X had years prior. And as for Touch... people are rumoring it to debut in a Mac Tablet in a month or a year at the latest.

himansk
Dec 13, 2007, 11:56 AM
The point of my comment was that on the one hand, he was complaining because MS increased system-requirement in the XP - Vista-transition, while he merrily described how Apple is also increasing system-requirements and dropping support for older processors. His comment was basically that MS is wrong in increasing system-regs, whereas there's nothing wrong with Apple doing the exactly same thing. Hell, he even went on to describe how Vista is slower on same hardware as XP is (which is propably true) and how keeps getting faster with each release. And that means that whereas MS is actually justified in increasing system-regs (since the OS would be too slow on older hardware), Apple has no such reason, since the OS just keeps on getting faster. According to him, the only reason Apple increases the system-regs of OS X is that they could sell more hardware.

And he said all that like it was a good thing. And he said all that while complaining about Microsoft increasing system-regs for Vista.

when microsoft increased the system requirements, it made even 1-2yr old systems obsolete to some extent. as a student i see so many of my fellow students struggle with their slow vista installations even in the newly bought laptops. when apple increased the system requirements, it made 7-8 yr old systems obsolete for upgrade, i have a first gen mbp which is a year n half old, and it runs even faster with leopard than it used to with tiger. how many pc owners can say the same about their vista upgrades on even a year old pc?

aarond12
Dec 13, 2007, 12:00 PM
Sheer arrogance. Vista (albeit slow and unstable) caught up to Tiger feature-wise.

Great. Now they're only one generation behind.

With a reinvigorated MS, their next release will compete directly with Leopard and 10.6, and it will come as close to matching and beating it as MS has ever come before.

That is how competition works. Apple adds a feature; Micro$oft copies it; the consumers benefit.

Microsoft has the opportunity here to regain (or at least retain) the public's opinion of them... and after the blunder of Vista, I would think they would take every opporunity they have to do so.

You are grossly underestimating the damage Vista has caused to the public's view of Micro$oft. Windows ME was a poor operating system, but people don't remember it because Windows 2000 and XP came so quickly afterwards.

Micro$oft has even PUBLICLY APOLOGIZED for Windows ME, so don't give me that crap that the public's opinion won't be seriously soiled after Vista. Unless Micro$oft comes out with a completely new operating system -- and fast -- the public's opinion of Micro$oft will continue to be tarnished.

-Aaron-

/dev/toaster
Dec 13, 2007, 12:05 PM
Another classic example of Microsoft being very late to the party. By 2010 I don't think anyone is going to care about multi-touch. Hell, by the end of 2008 chances are you will see it everywhere.

Of course, that is if it ever gets shipped. Microsoft is just starting on the next version of Windows. Over the next 2 years we are going to see countless promises from them which will never make it into release. Don't get me wrong, lots of companies do this. But, Microsoft uses it as marketing to raises their stock price. They also need anything they can to distract people from how bad Vista is doing.

Lets also not forget, this is the first version of the iPhone. Over the next 2 versions we will see crap we couldn't even imagine. I look at the old iPod and that gives me an insight on what to expect with the iPhone. Over time, it just keeps getting better.

By the time Microsoft gets done copying "other market leaders in the area of multi-touch screens", they will be light years a head of them. (I say market leaders, because there are actually some really cool **** other companies are doing with multi-touch".

heisetax
Dec 13, 2007, 12:07 PM
Sure... cameras and barcode scanners are revolutionary... for the 80's that is. Vista is crap. Apple can actually deliver new OS updates in a reasonable amount of time. Microsoft had to return to the drawing board several times before Vista even saw the light of day. I didn't mind Leopard being delayed. At least Apple stated the reason and then delivered Leopard instead of stalling again. As far as crippling features, I haven't noticed any. I run high end apps in Leopard every day.


It seems as if you forget how long it took Apple to update from the old OS 1-9 to OS X. They started more than once. These problems led to the purchase of Steve Jobs company. Without that purchase or the purchase of Be OS, Apple may still be trying to update.

The bigger the change that is ade the more delays we'll all see. This next point needs honesty, not Apple hype or Microsoft hype. Was Mac OS X beta & Mac OS 10.0 really so great that everyone immediately through away OS 9 & used only OS X? How much did this change with the release of Mac OS 10.1? Or was it really Mac OS 10.2 before everything is great & rosy. Or was it Mac OS 10.3, 10.4 or even 10.5? Or did Mac OS 10.5 break some of the old & be the classical 2 steps forward & 1 step back?

I used the beta of Mac OS X, OS 10.0, 10.1 & finally OS 10.2 before I used Mac OS X as my starup system & the system that I did most of my work in.
Some of this may be that it took that long for my software apps to be updated to OS X or I found something that was good enough to replace some that were not updated, or to do without for those that had no close replacements.

MS is easy to bad mouth. They give us so many reasons to do it. That doesn't mean that they are always wrong. My feelings of Windows is that use it & you'll really find out why you use a Mac. Computing should be fun & productive.

Bill the TaxMan

Clive At Five
Dec 13, 2007, 12:09 PM
Why would anyone think that a touch screen will make a bad system (windows) better?

Because 99.5% of all Tablet PCs sold run Windows. The other 0.5% are either ModBooks, or hacked to run Linux.

they stand for a system that sees one or two men with billions of dollars while the world is full of poor people who cant get a drink of fresh water.

Apple's Execs are among the highest paid in the industry and I see them doing nothing to help people in underprivilaged countries.

You need to calm yourself down a little and come to grips with the reality of a corporate-driven society. It may not be "the right thing to do" but it's the way things are.

-Clive

elgruga
Dec 13, 2007, 12:10 PM
Mac OS X running on PCs so that we can get some kick @$$ hardware to run a beautiful OS. Otherwise, Apple will always be slightly behind in the hardware bracket.

Didn't you read the announcement only a few days ago that stated that the fastest machine running the dreaded Windows is actually a MacBook Pro?

Slightly behind?

VenomousSVT
Dec 13, 2007, 12:10 PM
this isnt breaking news to me... you can go to microsofts website now and look at "surface"


there are videos of surface in action

farmboy
Dec 13, 2007, 12:11 PM
I hope you are prepared for an onslaught by the fanboys. A post that I more or less agree with, too bad something like this on a board like this one gets your burned alive. Good luck to you.

Riiiight. If you are enthusiastic about Apple and their products, you're a "fanboy" and somehow irrational. If you constantly post in what is fairly termed opposition to Apple and their products, you're reasoned and logical, and any response is simple flaming. Yeah, OK.

And by the way...I can still run Cricket Graph from 1987 on my Mac. Bite.

And floppy disks and serial ports are so necessary, we really need that endless backward compatibility.

Digital Skunk
Dec 13, 2007, 12:15 PM
You are grossly underestimating the damage Vista has caused to the public's view of Micro$oft. Windows ME was a poor operating system, but people don't remember it because Windows 2000 and XP came so quickly afterwards.

Micro$oft has even PUBLICLY APOLOGIZED for Windows ME, so don't give me that crap that the public's opinion won't be seriously soiled after Vista. Unless Micro$oft comes out with a completely new operating system -- and fast -- the public's opinion of Micro$oft will continue to be tarnished.

-Aaron-

I agree, but I don't think people are that effected by Vista. The majority of MS users don't realize that there is hope out there besides Microsoft and MS Office and the PC. Even if MS sells them crap on a stick, they will lick it up (Windows ME/Vista). The problem is that those people don't benefit that much from computers and don't care whether or not it works smoothly or not, so they could care less about what they use and prefer not to spend $1200 plus on them either.

MS is producing a lot of garbage and has been getting a lot of flak, but that won't deter the 80% of mindless MS users out there from buying a PC. And as for MS getting momentum... I doubt that seriously. They are kicking it up a notch because they see the fast growth of Mac OS X and Open Source software. Also, the PC makers are hitting the "Style and Functionality" button on their hardware engineers and they are coming out with machines that take away the design premium that Apple charges their users.

At this point in time, all manufacturers should be pushing themselves to come out with feature rich, user friendly hardware that is priced just right and is innovative in the way they are designed and used. So far the only companies that I see that aren't doing that are Palm and Apple.

We will see if Apple changes at MWSF.

ricosuave
Dec 13, 2007, 12:16 PM
Advanced Touch Features from Microsoft?

Sounds FUDtastic!

Digital Skunk
Dec 13, 2007, 12:18 PM
Didn't you read the announcement only a few days ago that stated that the fastest machine running the dreaded Windows is actually a MacBook Pro?

Slightly behind?

Slightly behind because they Apple doesn't have a laptop or Desktop with SLI or Crossfire. Apple doesn't have a laptop with a 512 MB GFX card. The Mac Pro is a whole nother complaint.

I am not whining about there being a lack of reasonable hardware now, since MWSF is coming, but if I don't see any hardware from Apple that can go toe-to-toe with the M1730, or the HP Blackbird, then they are behind in that market IMHO.

Masquerade
Dec 13, 2007, 12:27 PM
they have copied apple once again
a major part of apple's market is based on these miss-assumptions.

Didn't you read the announcement only a few days ago that stated that the fastest machine running the dreaded Windows is actually a MacBook Pro?

Slightly behind?
a little green bag traveling over pc world editors?
come on! there are notebooks for gamers with faster chips!

Orng
Dec 13, 2007, 12:28 PM
And he said all that like it was a good thing. And he said all that while complaining about Microsoft increasing system-regs for Vista.

Eh, I'm not here to be a referee, but I get your point.

I see no problem with anyone increasing system reqs for their software, so long as the backwards compatibility is "reasonable" eg, maybe a 4-6 year old machine should be still in the game. I think demanding current development for Pentium3, or for that matter G3, falls a little outside what I'd consider reasonable expectation. I'm pretty happy having OS9 on my G3. (I had it running Jaguar, but, uh, I kinda like OS9.) My G4 is just outside of Leopard's spectrum, and that's fine, it's almost six yrs old anyway. Time to sell the G3, put OS9 on the G4. Sweet.

On top of that, software is free to fly when it finally throws off its legacy chains. It's about time they moved MS DOS and its varied descendants into virtualization. Yep. Winux 2012, baby. The Woot edition.

And I'll be on this forum going, dude, Winux 2012 is where Leopard was 5 years ago, man! MS is light years behind Liger. Liger is pretty much my Favourite OS.

VenomousSVT
Dec 13, 2007, 12:30 PM
apple makes a great product, and their fanbase is there because of it. Microsoft makes a very good product too, and their fan base is there because it is sooo much cheaper than apple.

trust me, I would love to pull every tie from microsoft as an IT administrator and completely relearn everything I know in OSX, but honestly I cant afford to. I can build windows machines all day long for cheap. To even start out on a mac I have to pick up a mac mini for $600

elgruga
Dec 13, 2007, 12:30 PM
You need to calm yourself down a little and come to grips with the reality of a corporate-driven society. It may not be "the right thing to do" but it's the way things are.

-Clive

And I think that you need to WAKE UP and NOT accept the 'way things are'.
That way leads to casual cruelty and an uncaring society - or havent you noticed the madness in our little world?

I dont want a 'corporate-driven' society. I want corporations driven BY society and the reasonable needs of it.

No, I am not talking about State Control, just the notion of AWARE and INFORMED people, not clones and drones.
Apple, IMHO, does better than most in this respect.

Its actually worthwhile connecting your personal politics to your usage of consumer goods - makes for an informed consumer and better person.
Please try it.

Anyway enough. I have to finish this invoice using my touch technology text-input device (called a keyboard) and go to work, a place where reality bites.

I would stay home and play armchair debaters, but I have a family to feed and house and clothe and protect.

And I do it with a little help from my somewhat human-scale computer, the Apple.

I could start the day with Windows, but that would be like drinking Macdonalds mud instead of this fine French Roast coffee I am sipping.

Have a good one.

surferfromuk
Dec 13, 2007, 12:37 PM
It must really suck to work at Microsoft these days - every morning they get to work and the first thing they HAVE to do if they are going to stand even the slightest chance of staying technologically and economically relevant is to 'check out what Apple are doing today'!!!

and yet somehow in the process of 'blatantly copying' they manage to deliver deranged visionless hacked-up tech-junk to dupe more uninformed consumers.

AidenShaw
Dec 13, 2007, 12:37 PM
Didn't you read the announcement only a few days ago that stated that the fastest machine running the dreaded Windows is actually a MacBook Pro?

Slightly behind?

Fastest of the seven laptops that were tested, that is.

psycoswimmer
Dec 13, 2007, 12:40 PM
Seems like something that would come out of Microsoft.

"By 2010, the 2007 iPhone will be blown away!" Always playing catch-up.

Virgil-TB2
Dec 13, 2007, 12:40 PM
they have been pushing the tablet and pen computing for quite some time. really, a pen is not a whole lot different than touch. anyway. i think they have the right idea. good idea, terrible implementation. but hey, they have to innovate somewhere.
AI think you're giving MS more credit than they deserve here.

Touch sensitive screens and mobile computing in general was around long before MS jumped into the pen computing/tablet market and what did MS bring? Nothing other than simply integrating digital ink into the main OS and pushing hardware partners to produce some crappy tablets.

Apple integrated digital ink technology into OS-X a long time ago also, they just didn't make any noise about it because it's a trivial accomplishment. Apple also hasn't yet produced any tablet hardware because there is nothing there that really works yet.

MS will do with multi-touch exactly what they did with everything else. Incorporate it into the big box-of-everything that is Windows. So multi-touch "support" will be added, and partners will be encouraged to produce "multi-touch" hardware to wow everyone. It is as likely to succeed as the ten or so other times they tried ripping off whatever the latest thing is and stuffing it into Windows.

Apple has patented the hell out of multi-touch though so what we will see is workarounds and cheap copies of it only, while Apple is already working on true innovations with "multi-touch 2."

Butthead
Dec 13, 2007, 12:41 PM
Windows 7 was named that because it was anticipated that it would take 7 more years from the release of Vista before M$ would get their sheet together and release another disappointing OS upgrade. I think Apple this time will beat them to it with OS 10.6 sometime before 2012, (but not much sooner given Apple's slow pace these days) lol.

elgruga
Dec 13, 2007, 12:41 PM
Slightly behind because they Apple doesn't have a laptop or Desktop with SLI or Crossfire. Apple doesn't have a laptop with a 512 MB GFX card. The Mac Pro is a whole nother complaint.

I am not whining about there being a lack of reasonable hardware now, since MWSF is coming, but if I don't see any hardware from Apple that can go toe-to-toe with the M1730, or the HP Blackbird, then they are behind in that market IMHO.

Yes, agreed.
I dont think Apple will ever really compete in that area of 'bleeding edge' super-fast machines - but then who would have seen them as a Phone manufacturer?
Maybe they should have a kind of 'Skunk Works' project area, like Boeing does, where they make insanely fast experimental machines?

Not my thing, but might be a way to expand their market.....

AidenShaw
Dec 13, 2007, 12:53 PM
Microsoft will be 'blown away' by the patent infringement lawsuit Apple will file

yeah.

This will be an interesting lawsuit, if Apple even takes the chance to taking it to court.

Multi-touch goes back at least 25 years, to 1982. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-touch)

The two-fingered "pinch" and "un-pinch" gestures were shown by Tog at Sun in 1994.

Microsoft's Surface computer has been shown in several incarnations over the last 5 years, and Microsoft engineers have consulted on some movie special effects involving multi-touch futuristic systems.

lazyrighteye
Dec 13, 2007, 12:55 PM
i think the surface is supposed to be coming to market mid-2008 actually.

Yes. And at $10,000 per unit, they'll fly off the shelves. :rolleyes:
Vegas casinos & hotels? Sure.
Joe/Jane Public's living room? Not so much.

Now that's not to say they aren't working on smaller, laptop/handheld-ish implementation. But I'd imagine it a bit before those tables are mainstream.

And I still go back to my "interested to see what Apple does with touch tech by 2010."

We'll see...

CANEHDN
Dec 13, 2007, 12:55 PM
That guy is acting like Apple won't make improvements on their touch interfaces in the next three years. He acts like Apple will pull a Microsoft and stop development of new innovative products.

Virgil-TB2
Dec 13, 2007, 12:56 PM
... I've never even owned a windows box, but even I agree with most of the pro-windows statements made here (especially the guy who said Apple doesn't make new software compatible with older OS's - my flatmate once couldn't get an airport express to work on a year old powermac G5 cos he hadn't bought panther ...

This is a bit disingenuous isn't it?

Panther came out just a few months after the G5 was first released in the US, so to avoid having it pre-installed, your flatmate must have bought the G5 on practically the first day of sale and had it drop-shipped to the UK. He/she was probably even valid for a free upgrade to Panther at the time they bought it.

Panther (10.3) is also almost the first "usable" version of OS-X, definitely the first with such wide distribution and acceptance. And your saying that despite having bought one of the most expensive computers in history your friend eschewed a free (or at least very cheap) upgrade to Panther? For what reason? That kind of stretches credibility at best.

Panther would also already have been announced a long time previous to the purchase so it's not like he wouldn't know about it or the fact that it was coming out. All the G5 computers were initially designed to run Panther, and only the PowerMac came out before the OS was released and then only by a few months as I said.

hagjohn
Dec 13, 2007, 12:57 PM
And their idiots. I've had very little issues with Vista (64 bit). If you buy good hardware from vendors that make good drivers, you have very little issues. You also have Mac users who have gone back from Leopard, which I don't understand either but hey, it's their choice.

I had a woman tell me today that she hated Vista because of the new ribbon. She was actually talking about Office, not Vista.

Yes, I'm sure they're selling a lot of copies. But then people turn around and re-install XP after finding Vista mostly unusable. Most Windows users I know who have bought Vista have done this.
But anyway, back on topic. Re: the touch functionality that will 'blow away the iPhone,' I'll believe it when I see it. Enough rhetoric, bring it on.

Orng
Dec 13, 2007, 01:01 PM
The real reason that the 'touch' thing wont do well on a computer is ergonomics; a large screen must be about 2.5 feet away when viewing it, and that precludes reaching out to 'touch' it, because the reach of most humans when sitting face on to a screen is slightly less than 2.5 feet.


I was just thinking, looking at my desk arrangement with dual 21" monitors... actually four systems I use with dual big screens, there is no way I could sit here and work for eight hours a day holding my arm up, especially for fine detail work in Flash or Illustrator or Photoshop. I'd need elbow stirrups.

I agree, but I don't think people are that effected by Vista. The majority of MS users don't realize that there is hope out there besides Microsoft and MS Office and the PC.

A month or two back i went to the dentist, and the hygienist said to me "I'm thinking of getting a new laptop, but I hear they all have that Vista on them, and I've heard that's bad"

My dental hygienist isn't necessarily the only measure of consumer confidence, but it certainly shows that Vista=bad is a dominant meme if it filters down to the very computer illiterate.

I told her to get a macbook. She said, "oh, does that not have Vista?" I said it can run Vista, but why would you want it to?

I had a woman tell me today that she hated Vista because of the new ribbon. She was actually talking about Office, not Vista.
Was she one of those people who thinks the monitor is the computer? My wife is in IT and it drives her crazy when people just turn the monitor on and off when she tells them to reboot.

Digital Skunk
Dec 13, 2007, 01:04 PM
a major part of apple's market is based on these miss-assumptions.

a little green bag traveling over pc world editors?
come on! there are notebooks for gamers with faster chips!

Right on both accounts. Not everything innovative is Apple. I like that the Gadgets in Vista can be used while you are still working on your desktop. Mac OS X's can only be used when Dashboard is engaged, although a cool and no longer available widget called "Dashit" killed that Windows benefit.

As for the money part... that may be the case although I think they were testing comparable systems. Since the MBP uses the mid range parts from Intel and other manufacturers the testers had to use the comparable systems from PC makers. Now if Apple had a Dual 2.8 GHz laptop with SLI they could have done the tests with that and the Dell M1730 or a Mac Pro with specs comparable to the HP Blackbird or XPS H2C could have gone toe-to-toe.

Yes, agreed.
I dont think Apple will ever really compete in that area of 'bleeding edge' super-fast machines - but then who would have seen them as a Phone manufacturer?
Maybe they should have a kind of 'Skunk Works' project area, like Boeing does, where they make insanely fast experimental machines?

Not my thing, but might be a way to expand their market.....

I don't even want them to be bleeding edge or experimental, just give me a 17" MBP that is really a desktop replacement, or one that has a faster processor faster GFX card and dual HDD slots. How about that mid range tower for that crowd that has been begging for one for years?

Apple does a good job of fitting their "every man" machines into the broad area of the market, but how about making machines that cater to crowd that have no where else to turn but Windows, those begging for a 11.1" MBP, a Mac Pro Mini, and a 19" MBP?

Virgil-TB2
Dec 13, 2007, 01:12 PM
remember when vista/longhorn was announced?? it was supposed to be revolutionary and change everything on PCs. we all know how revolutionary it really is when it came out. every feature announced 2-3 years before it actually comes out can be called revolutionary, but the real revolutionary features are the ones that are delivered and done right.
imagine apple announcing the iphone features 3yrs ago, it would still have been revolutionary but by the time they released it, it would have been copied by everyone else andthe features themselves would have lost their value. Its important to have vision of what the requirements of the users will be when the product comes out, and trying to fulfill those requirements, rather than trying to fulfill today's user's requirements 3 yrs in the future.Exactly.

That's why Apple innovates and creates markets, while Microsoft, as a reactive company, can only copy them.

Microsoft thinks it "won" by conquering the world with MS Windows, but it's a win that can't last unless the monopoly is maintained. Just like the Greenland ice sheets, once the melting starts it will likely snowball and MS will be just another also-ran.

As with all things historical, people will look back on the beginnings of the computer age focussing on who was responsible for the innovation, "who did what first," and who were the leaders and game changers.

Microsoft, despite it's current business position, will be seen as the copycat uncreative, non-innovative company they most certainly are. Bill Gates will be "just some rich guy" all his prognostications on technology, as revered as they are in some circles now, will be exposed for the plebeian guesswork that they are.

saulbug
Dec 13, 2007, 01:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZrr7AZ9nCY

Virgil-TB2
Dec 13, 2007, 01:25 PM
apple makes a great product, and their fanbase is there because of it. Microsoft makes a very good product too, and their fan base is there because it is sooo much cheaper than apple.

trust me, I would love to pull every tie from microsoft as an IT administrator and completely relearn everything I know in OSX, but honestly I cant afford to. I can build windows machines all day long for cheap. To even start out on a mac I have to pick up a mac mini for $600You don't sound like a very good "IT Administrator." :)

In the first place cost of ownership and return on investment are the main ways of looking at desktop costs in a large IT environment, and Apple is cheaper on that scale than Windows. Any "IT guy" should know that. :rolleyes: There is a cost (training and hardware) inherent in the switch from Windows to Mac, so there is definitely a "bump" to get over there, but then again, you *should* know that already even though you don't mention it.

You then talk about "relearn(ing)" everything in OS-X, but OS-X is Unix. :eek:

Any "IT Administrator" that has no Unix knowledge is simply not an "IT Administrator" of any worth at all. I wouldn't hire any IT personnel that couldn't at least poke around in a Unix terminal. How can you trust the skills of someone who is so lame as to not know anything about the oldest, most stable and most common OS in history?

In short, if you know Unix, (even a tiny bit), switching to Mac should be child's-play for any IT professional, and why would anyone call themselves an IT professional if they *didn't* know any Unix?

guzhogi
Dec 13, 2007, 01:26 PM
When it comes to software & it getting broken by new versions of a OS, I see two sides to this. On one hand, I don't think an OS maker should break software (intentionally or not) just for the heck of it. However, sometimes it's necessary to break some software in order to move forward. I don't think you should keep backwards compatibility if you can do so much more. You just have to weigh the rewards & losses of changing an OS/breaking software.

While Apple breaks a lot of software w/ each revision of Mac OS X, look at all the features it brings that no one else has (or at least done as well). With Windows, it strives on backwards compatibility. One person on this threaded posted he's still using Windows 3.1 apps on Vista. On the other hand, look how unstable it is (or appears to be). I remember running a pre-release version of both Leopard & Vista. IMO, Vista was a lot more stable than Leopard, but I only used Vista for games while Leopard was my main OS.

vansouza
Dec 13, 2007, 01:28 PM
How shameless the house of M$ is the bull poop for the new version of windows starts already... just wait... that's all we have to do... for Vista II to be delivered. So wait until 2025 for the thing to be what they say it is or play with Leopard today... this is just too sick... and makes me sick, I mean really who are they trying to kid?

Consultant
Dec 13, 2007, 01:41 PM
Right on both accounts. Not everything innovative is Apple. I like that the Gadgets in Vista can be used while you are still working on your desktop. Mac OS X's can only be used when Dashboard is engaged, although a cool and no longer available widget called "Dashit" killed that Windows benefit.

FIRST RELEASED IN 2005. Ms probably just copied this.
Widget on desktop: Amnesty Widget Browser, for 10.3, 10.4, 10.5.
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/26627

johncarync
Dec 13, 2007, 01:42 PM
If you were impressed with the features of the 2003 iPod, you'll be blown away by the 2007 Microsoft Zune!

http://www.subarusvx.com/iPodVsZune.jpg

I'm sure that when Microsoft gets around to releasing their touch features in 2011 (Is there really a chance it will be released in 2010?), they will blow away the 2007 iPhone's touch features.

Maccus Aurelius
Dec 13, 2007, 01:43 PM
The biggest mistake they made was claiming that it will somehow "blow away" the multitouch of the iPhone. The ridiculousness of actually announcing such a thing for a far-off product of undetermined specifications (read:vaporware) aside, it's a cellular phone which has a rather limited scope with regards to its multitouch. There's not much more one can do except pinch pictures, zoom into web pages and use the virtual keypad (this is not counting the applications used on jailbroken iPhones). Obviously a full blown computer should be able to actually take more advantage of multitouch. It has more power, more display real estate and more openness when it comes to third party enhancement right off the bat. This stuff isn't news. No harm in that, but I prefer to see a good example rather than take a blogger's words to heart. Then there's the repeated statement that the iPhone is a current product that has been out for a few months shy of a year now. Well gee willikers Ballmer & Co., ya mean tek-naw-lagie advances??

Then there's the popularity of tablet PC's. Didn't Gates claim that these would be the most popular form of PC's on the market? Needless to say this hasn't happened yet. After using a tablet, I can tell you now that I love them, especially when coupled with a good art program like Corel Painter, but all in all I couldn't see myself using it all the time, because there are just not enough uses for it, and basically, to me, there's not enough cool-juice in the world that can offset lack of uses.

And this, I think, is the edge that the iPhone has right now. The iPhone's multitouch implementation is limited as it's on a device that is limited in power, application support and sheer real estate, but what it delivers on is the simple and intuitive uses for it. Pinching pictures and web pages to make things more usable given its size does not sound like a big thing, and it isn't, but these reasons for it to exist just don't exist for a tablet. My questions are: How useful will the multitouch be for everyday applications? How big of an improvement could it provide for tablets to the same degree that bringing multitouch to the cell phone has with the inception of the iPhone? Personally, I can't see any.

I'm more concerned with how usable Windows 7 is in terms of general computing and hardware support. Who in their right mind would take a claim that a desktop OS will trounce a mobile phone in multitouch capabilities seriously? Well thanks Captain Obvious. Next time tell me that Intel will launch new CPU's that will further blow the socks off of Centrino Duo!

Consultant
Dec 13, 2007, 01:44 PM
And their idiots. I've had very little issues with Vista (64 bit). If you buy good hardware from vendors that make good drivers, you have very little issues. You also have Mac users who have gone back from Leopard, which I don't understand either but hey, it's their choice.

I had a woman tell me today that she hated Vista because of the new ribbon. She was actually talking about Office, not Vista.

Vista actually requires driver(s) to output signal to video projectors. That's not the fault of the vendors. Heck, even Mac OS 9 and probably earlier Mac OS can connect to any video projector (AKA VGA monitors) with no need to find and install a driver.

Analog Kid
Dec 13, 2007, 01:48 PM
Ah, do you hear that music? It's March of the Vaporware... Kinda like Bolero, but louder...

Bosunsfate
Dec 13, 2007, 01:54 PM
If you were impressed with the features of the 2003 iPod, you'll be blown away by the 2007 Microsoft Zune!

http://www.subarusvx.com/iPodVsZune.jpg

I'm sure that when Microsoft gets around to releasing their touch features in 2011 (Is there really a chance it will be released in 2010?), they will blow away the 2007 iPhone's touch features.

I have to admit. I like the 2003 iPod better.

EagerDragon
Dec 13, 2007, 01:55 PM
Sweet, will that be coming out in 2011 or 2012?
Will it then slide to 2020?
Obviously Apple will be sitting idle and with zero plans for the future, LOL.

What a joke, but hey .... it may cause Apple to bring forward the big guns, cool.

Jaymes
Dec 13, 2007, 01:55 PM
Slightly behind because they Apple doesn't have a laptop or Desktop with SLI or Crossfire.

Somewhat fallacious argument. The Mac Pro can do SLI via Boot Camp. Mac OS X doesn't have SLI support, but it can be enabled (and works) via Windows. Check out the following for more info:

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=612359&tstart=0

eijsenga
Dec 13, 2007, 01:58 PM
The biggest mistake they made was claiming that it will somehow "blow away" the multitouch of the iPhone. The ridiculousness of actually announcing such a thing [...]

"They" didn't announce anything. "He" wrote something.

daprinz
Dec 13, 2007, 01:58 PM
That's awesome!
I wonder what the gesture for contor-alt-del will be :p