Media Center PCs?

[MacRumors]

PC Makers revealed (http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-5083961.html) plans to push Microsoft's new Windows XP Media Center Edition 2004. The upgraded version of Windows from Microsoft which attempts to (http://news.com.com/2100-1046-5083545.html?tag=nl) provide an integrated PC entertainment system with "user interface for viewing television programs, video, photos and other multimedia files--by incorporating photo editing and the ability to pause and rewind television shows."

More information on is available on Microsoft's site (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/mediacenter/default.asp).

The new OS appears to provide resellers and 3rd parties to provide custom experiences, with Napster claiming (http://news.designtechnica.com/article1380.html) that the new Napster 2.0 will have Media Center integration, while HP is planning a Photosmart PC (http://news.com.com/2100-1042-5062155.html?tag=nl) for digital imaging enthusiasts.

Steve Jobs has spoken against convergance (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/01/20020108201904.shtml) in the past, and instead has been focusing on a "digital hub" strategy, though this integration may blur the lines. Meanwhile, a recent survey (http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20030930S0015) reports that 51% of consumers are willing to record content on their PCs for playback on the TVs, while only 34% would do so if they had to watch on their desktops.

[arn]

goes back to the whole "who would watch a DVD on their computer".

However... looking at Microsoft's demo site about it... it looks appealing.

I know a lot of people have been integrating their Macs/PCs with their home stereo and home television equipment. This tries to take it to then next level... the question of course is how well it does it.

I personally would not recommend a computer-based Tivo/Replay at this time to anyone... as the ones I've looked into are NOT an applicance-like experience.

The beauty of the Tivo/Replay is it is truely an appliance. It works, you don't have to reboot it, and deal with a lot of headaches.


arn

[MacVault]

I think Apple should do this too! I would love to be able to sit at my home theatre or TV and pull photos, movies, and music over the network from my Powermac G5. Also being able to record shows from the TV to my mac in MPEG4 would be sooo sweet! This would be awsome! What is Apple's problem with this? If someone doesn't want to 'converge' then they don't have to. But we should have to the option to if we want.

Is there currently any 3rd party solution to do this???

[hugemullens]

Never been a big fan a windows media center, maybe i would like it more if it was a stand-alone OS, but you cant order a copy, only what the OEMS give you. I agree, although neat, they are far from TIVO's and nothing a normal computer cant do with a little 3rd party software.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by arn
goes back to the whole "who would watch a DVD on their computer".


Me, for one... Saves me from owning a TV and all the crap that goes with it...

Not saying I'm normal, but a market of at least one exists... :)

[arn]

There was another quote from Jobs that I couldn't find off hand...

Basically, it was one about a refridgerator and a toaster. The technology exists for your refridgerator to also make toast.... but no one wants that.

anyhow... an appropriate quote for this thread.

arn

[PowerBook User]

Is this good or bad news?:confused: Anyway, I don't know how innovative this is. For example, Apple had some of these features years ago, like the Macintosh TV (about 10 years ago). Also, many older Macs have TV tuners, a remote control, RCA and S-Video in and out, an FM radio tuner, and included subwoofer. Some of the cool Macs like this were the Macintosh TV, 20th Anniversary Macintosh, Power Macintosh 6500, and Power Macintosh/Performa 62xx. Not that it's a bad idea, though. I wish Apple would add all or most of these things as options on current Macs.

[gotohamish]

Originally posted on Page 1
Roger Kay, an analyst, provides this criticism of the integration: "You never quite get the (consumer electronics) experience .... It's still ultimately a Swiss Army knife, rather than a katana (a Japanese sword)."

Aaaah, the Swiss Army Knife.

Never trust an army with a bottle opener so easily accessible!

[gotohamish]

Originally posted by arn
There was another quote from Jobs that I couldn't find off hand...

Basically, it was one about a refridgerator and a toaster. The technology exists for your refridgerator to also make toast.... but no one wants that.

anyhow... an appropriate quote for this thread.

arn

Obviously he has no need for one of these then.

The Internet Toaster (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1264205.stm)

[punter]

my dad wants to get a dvd player for the tv. I reckon we get a computer with av in/out and a dvd reader. This way we could digitally record shows onto a hard disk. For those not worried about downloading/ripping illegal copies of movies it would have even more benefits.

We don't have tivo where I am, so I'm a bit of a novice in the whole area.

[RichardCarletta]

Sony makes 19" flat screen CRTs with 2560 X 1536 resolution . they sell for $700 . Install those in a larger eMac case , install a second 7200 rpm 250 GB hard drive , a high definition version of Formac Studio/ TV with remote control , a G5 procssor and if the case is large enough an extra fan , and you would have a mac version of a media center pc.

$ 1300 eMac with Radeon 9600
+ $ 650 Formac Studio/ HDTV
$ 700 SONY CRT
$ 300 second hard drive
$ 50 larger eMac case and fans and firewire 800
----------------------------------------------------------
$ 3000 for G4 model with standard dvd-r superdrive
+ $ 500 G5
------------------------------------------------------------
$ 3500 for G5 model with standard dvd-r superdrive
+ $ 3000 " blueray " high defination dvd-r superdrive
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
$ 6500 for G5 model with " blueray " high defination dvd-r superdrive

[arn]

Originally posted by punter
my dad wants to get a dvd player for the tv. I reckon we get a computer with av in/out and a dvd reader. This way we could digitally record shows onto a hard disk. For those not worried about downloading/ripping illegal copies of movies it would have even more benefits.


In theory... sure... but in practice, this setup can be a pain in the ass. Let us know how it goes.

arn

[sak]

Originally posted by gotohamish
Aaaah, the Swiss Army Knife.

Never trust an army with a bottle opener so easily accessible!
Very off topic.. The real Swiss Army Knife hast no bottle opener check here (http://www.victorinox.com/newsite/en/produkte/taschen/inhalt2.cfm?pid=0-8610-26) :(

[gotohamish]

Originally posted by sak
Very off topic.. The real Swiss Army Knife hast no bottle opener check here (http://www.victorinox.com/newsite/en/produkte/taschen/inhalt2.cfm?pid=0-8610-26) :(

There's clearly a bottle opener right on that picture.

I'm not talking about a corkscrew.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by punter
my dad wants to get a dvd player for the tv. I reckon we get a computer with av in/out and a dvd reader. This way we could digitally record shows onto a hard disk. For those not worried about downloading/ripping illegal copies of movies it would have even more benefits.

We don't have tivo where I am, so I'm a bit of a novice in the whole area.

Aside from ripping your movies onto its hard drive (which you could do on your living room computer now), you've essentially replaced a $99 DVD player and <$500 TiVO 2/HM with a $2000 computer.

Add in the inconvenience associated with such a setup (you either deal with the computer interface for DVD/TiVO activities, or you deal with a "10-foot" interface's setup and configuration), and I really don't see how this is a worthwhile idea.

IMHO, the "Media Center PC" is a solution in search of a problem. Frankly, there is nothing it can do better than a (small) set of well-designed appliances, and unless you really are going to use every single feature available (including doing spreadsheets on your living room television), then it is also no more expensive than those appliances.

I agree with Steve. There's no way I'd live with just a "Media Center PC"; I'd still need a living room/office PC. Suddenly, the Media Center PC is nothing but a very expensive replacement for products that work better and with significantly less hassle.

But then, I always thought having your PC act as an answering machine was a stupid idea that would never catch on, yet for a good 5 years in the late 90's every single PC sold had a "voice modem" and answering machine software turned on when it went out the factory door ...

[icrew]

Originally posted by MacVault
I think Apple should do this too! I would love to be able to sit at my home theatre or TV and pull photos, movies, and music over the network from my Powermac G5. Also being able to record shows from the TV to my mac in MPEG4 would be sooo sweet! This would be awsome! What is Apple's problem with this? If someone doesn't want to 'converge' then they don't have to. But we should have to the option to if we want.

Is there currently any 3rd party solution to do this???

Check out TiVo's Home Media Option on their Series 2 DVRs....that'll do a lot of what you want. See http://www.tivo.com/1.10.asp .

Hope this helps,

Ian

[tomf87]

Originally posted by Analog Kid
Me, for one... Saves me from owning a TV and all the crap that goes with it...

Not saying I'm normal, but a market of at least one exists... :)

Same here... I'm selling my HDTV equipment as I never watch the thing. It's either books, music, or rollerblading. Any buyers? :)

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by sak
Very off topic.. The real Swiss Army Knife hast no bottle opener check here (http://www.victorinox.com/newsite/en/produkte/taschen/inhalt2.cfm?pid=0-8610-26) :(

As depicted in the photo, from left to right:

1) Bottle Opener
2) Awl
3) Blade
4) Can Opener

Clearly, that includes a bottle opener. No, it's not going to open a bottle of fine wine, but it'll easily open a bottle of soda or beer.

[hamishb]

I recently bought a Lifeview FlyVideo 3000 and the Televio software from http://televio.com

Paid A$220, which is around US$150 (Aussie dollar at a 5 year high at present)

Works great, can watch TV and do my work.

Just like my Performa 6400! (and my wife's 5200/75 before that!)

Cheers
Hamish

[bbarnhart]

A "media PC" is all wrong. I don't want a computer in my living room. Jobs has it right. The Mac should be the center of the digital hub. There is one piece missing. There needs to be a set top box that takes multiple inputs from al of your media output devices (cable, satellite, CD, DVD, tuner, etc) and routes them to your Mac. That set top box will have to do the digitizing work and then send them to your Mac to be archived.

It must also be able to control your output devices (like my Tivo changes the channel on my satellite receiver). Now, your Mac has all your favorite TV shows, ripped all of your CD's and your kids DVD's that they watch all the time and your favorite radio programs. If you have another TV you will need another set top box to access your Mac (this one could be a 'lite' version. Just pulls from the Mac and does not do any digitizing).

This set top box also has usb and firewire to download pictures and movies from your digital camera and video camera. This device is not all that different from the Tivo box. We have one and it works great. However, the Tivo just records TV shows and changes the channel on our satellite. To add all of the other stuff would not be that difficult.

You can control the set top box from your TV with remote. View a list of the TV shows you've recorded or a list of your MP3's. This would truly make the Mac the center of your digital lifestyle.

[mactarkus]

I would love if Apple simply made a headless Mac with high quality video in/outs and audio in/outs to connect to my home theater. It would be networkable (wireless) and use a wireless keyboard/mouse. A big hard drive is a must along with an integrated FM/TV tuner. I presently use a 466MHz Beige G3 desktop in my home theater. It uses an EyeTV to record my shows and display them to the big screen TV or any other Mac on my network. It plays my MP3 collection from another computer on the network along with photos too. Of course, I can surf the net from the comfort of my couch too. They could make it real cheap too. My total setup can probably be had for about $500.

[bbarnhart]

I forgot one thing. Why not add a bluetooth keyboard with trackpad so you can view your Mac desktop on your TV? Using terminal services technology (VNC) you can bring your desktop to the TV and surf or run some quick app.

[displaced]

I much prefer Apple's current track to the direction that MS have taken.

An all-in-one unit cannot match the flexibility of separate devices, with well-defined capabilities and a standard, open method of communication between them.

Part of the beauty of having a 'real' computer in the centre of things is that both end-users and developers can innovate and customise. Of course, this is no replacement for a good 'out-of the box' experience - but that is one of the strengths of Apple. They create genuinely usable software without neglecting aspects such as AppleScript that let users, tinkerers and developers create powerful custom solutions.

Look at something like the Salling Clicker. Astoundingly powerful, yet all it's really doing is exposing capabilities that the OS already has. With the right hardware, and some good software to pull it all together, it could work really well.

I'm picturing something like a mini Xserve RAID sat where a VCR would be, with all the A/V output and capture hardware inside, slaved to the Mac via Bluetooth or 802.11g. Tie this in with a smart remote control (or, what the hell, why not a 12" PowerBook!?). Couple it all with a 802.11g iPod dock, and a smattering of Rendezvous, and you're set!

The whole 'Media Center' PC concept just seems unduly limiting.

[1adonis1]

What's the difference between a "Media Center" and a "Digital Hub".

[cubist]

This is not a "new OS", this is just another bundle.

This is why the PC software market is so much scorched earth: Microsoft keeps bundling more and more stuff, until eventually we could expect that XP will include any software anyone would ever buy... and Microsoft would be the only software vendor on earth.

[Powerbook G5]

I used a Toshiba MC laptop over the summer that had built in tivo/tv tuner, video capture, media card readers, etc. It was really heavy and froze up a lot, so if these new systems will be anything like that, I'd still rather watch TV on my HD Samsung TV, listen to music on my Pioneer system, and record video with my Sony.

I also loved that quote comparing the swiss army knife to the katana. :D

[Cooknn]

If at some point HDTV content can be downloaded via the web and played back on your TV, integration like this could take off. Video-On-Demand is still in its infant stages IMHO. Websites like Movielink.Com (http://www.movielink.com) (a joint venture among Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Studios, Paramount Pictures, Sony Pictures Entertainment, Warner Bros. and Universal Pictures) have the opportunity to deliver the content, but those who have experienced HDTV at 1080i or 720p will not want to spend time or money on anything else. There is a big opportunity here. Either we wait for the cable companies to offer us what we want, or someone figures out how to deliver it over the web.

[Nextstep OS X]

I have it in my room as a computer, but also as a TV.

Its great I wont part with it ever!

Tivo service without subcription? YES PLEASE!

Now I can even download movies from my remove control !!!

Even MP3, I wish iTunes would integrate into Media Center.

I have had for about 9 months and works great!

Now 2004 version came out even betta !!!

Some times you gotta buy PC, cause macs cant compete. (el gato and all that crap cant compare to Media Center try it out at the stores you'll see...)

[kangaroo]

Quick question--related but off topic:
The MS Media Center Demo
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/mediacenter/evaluation/tours/MCEdemo/hiBand/loader.html
indicateds that Flash is required. Does that mean that the entire demo, both the presentation and interactive segments were written in Flash? Thanks.

[blizaine]

I'll just stick with my PS2 (w/network), OSX, and GameShark MediaPlayer.

It can play DivX, XviD, MEPG1/2/4, and MP3's from my Mac's hard drive over my wireless LAN.

As far as recording... Time Warner has a TIVO like box (Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8000) for $6/ month. I can record 2 shows at once while watch a third recorded show. It holds like 50 hours. Also, no upfront costs and when the Technology is out dated I trade it in for a new one.

The LAST thing I would want is a PC that acted as my entertainment station for DVD's and PVR. I very much prefer to have stand-along boxes that do that stuff.

Can't get any better (for now) :)

Also SA is coming out with a HD Tuner/Recorder Q1 of 2004.

[Maxwell Devine]

Wow, this sounds like a horrible idea. There’s no way that Microsoft can engineer a “multimedia” package that incorporates so many things and have it be user friendly –- I’m amazed that Apple did it with their iLife suite, but they have years on Microsoft in terms of designing user friendly apps. You know that the average person who wants to record television or watch DVDs isn’t going to be able to figure out how to effectively use the thing. I think your average consumer would rather (hence, it is easier) watch a DVD or use a TIVO hooked up to the TV. Especially when you consider what Microsoft will probably charge for this software upgrade.

And because it’s Microsoft, you know this thing is going to be buggy as hell.

[Powerbook G5]

Damn, Time Warner here stuck me with a crappy Motorola digital cable box that can't do anything good.

[Cooknn]

Comcast will begin deployment of the Motorola HDTV PVR (http://http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0%2C1958%2C2732_2217_23%2C00.html) in November. Record High-Def programming for replay with pause, fast forward, and rewind. Also could use it to do your own instant replays while watching live HD sporting events. Nothing but HD for me once I get my hands on this STB :eek:

[xtekdiver]

Originally posted by arn
In theory... sure... but in practice, this setup can be a pain in the ass. Let us know how it goes.

arn

I agree with Arn, this is a real hack situation. I built my own Media Center PC, and it works...sort of. This is definitely first generation stuff and not for the neophyte PC user; but the possibilities are intriguing.

But here is the rub. I can't decide if I want the ability to record and save all my favorite programs or simply the ability to watch them whenever I want. I think on demand viewing as a service will replace recording. It will not be long before your cable or satellite dealer can provide you with the ability to watch any show or movie you want and stream it to you on demand. Imagine signing up with your favorite channel, say National Geographic or NFL football, and be able to watch anything in their library without commercials. Why sell advertisement when you can sell your product directly to the consumer? And why go to all the trouble to save, store, and backup all your digital media when you can just come home, turn on the panel, and watch whatever you want?

Tivo is just one step away from from this senerio. If I am going to pay for a service I want complete freedom, I don't want to worry about disc drive space.

[the_dalex]

I would much rather have a standalone TiVo type box that can wirelessly transfer its files to and from my Mac. Let it do the work, my processor and hard drive are already busy enough.

Why would I want to tie up my computer while I record a show? Let another, cheaper box do the work and I'll grab the file once its done.

[Docrjm]

M$ could then try to alter the way TV is delivered to the massess with "common platform technology, that will obviously work for everyone", so long as its m$ based!
Heck m$ are prob trying to find a way to sell wins..t 3000 to everyone, even if they don't own a pc.

[macnews]

Originally posted by MacVault
I think Apple should do this too! I would love to be able to sit at my home theatre or TV and pull photos, movies, and music over the network from my Powermac G5. Also being able to record shows from the TV to my mac in MPEG4 would be sooo sweet! This would be awsome! What is Apple's problem with this? If someone doesn't want to 'converge' then they don't have to. But we should have to the option to if we want.

Is there currently any 3rd party solution to do this???

Let's see, iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, Formac, Tivo (w/bluetooth integration) so hmmmm, that would be a YES! This whole "media center" thing fails and falls short of the "digital hub" which Apple is pushing. When you look at what HP is doing and some of the others, all it amounts to is being able to plug and play with ease - or in other words IT JUST WORKS! Problem is, it will only work with HP items, or Sony w/Sony extras, Dell w/Dell stuff - what a load of crap. That is the nice thing about macs they just work with EVERYTHING - ok, not everything but more that PCs.

Arn also has a good point about not wanting to reboot all the time. From the cNet article " With the software upgrade, code-named Harmony, Microsoft has tried to address some of the critiques from its earliest customers and improve the overall stability of the operating system." Hmmm, so we are still trying to stabilize the operating system.

Imagine these conversations:
"Honey ER is on, but the system won't boot up, guess we will have to drag out the old 15" color TV with rabbit ears AGAIN!"
or
"Kids, I know you want to watch Barney, but the TV is infected with the M-big virus and isn't working right now." (maybe this would be a good thing!)

Just doesn't make good sense!

[greenstork]

I think M$ is on the right track but obviously a standalone PC to do the task of recording, playback movies, etc. is all wrong for the reasons mentioned in this thread. However, the ideas are outstanding. Look at what we are talking about:

1. recording and playback of TV, just like a Tivo. Equipped with the ability to watch one program and record 1-3 other programs simultaneously.

2. movies on-demand. With the exception of the pay-per-view channels on satellite and cable, this is a relatively new and burgeoning market.

3. Photos, music, digital hub stuff etc etc.

4. Integration with your computer, access to computer files.

While I think M$ implementation of these concepts is poorly executed by developing a standalone PC, I do think Apple could mac out this setup .

I've been waiting for the next generation of Tivo to do just this, better integrate with my computer. An Apple appliance would be perfect. It serves all the functions of Tivo but also hooks into your computer, the internet, serves up photos, iTunes, recorded TV, movies on demand. It extends the digital hub from your office into your living room. Let's be realistic here, this is a natural and expected extension.

Why is this different from M$, two reasons. It keeps the digital hub centered around you main computer and connects via 802.11g or ethernet. Second: the next big thing from Apple, the vPod. Grab your TV show, your movies on demand and take it with you. It doubles as a remote control for this system, it's perfect.

Apple would no doubt be able to execute these concepts in a way that would make people drool for one of thes systems. M$ simply lacks good innovation and the drool factor.

[Cooknn]

Originally posted by greenstork
...and the drool factor. LOL :D Apple's got that down to a science, eh?

[jordiebrad]

Great, now my television can crash too.

[quixotic]

If a mac is good enough for professionals to write music with and edit film on, it's not hard to understand that it would be excellent to listen to music with and watch film on. :confused:

Considering all the apps that apple has made in recent years, that G5's already have optical audio outs, and the phenominal amount of video projectors on the market, why not?

Why buy additional dedicated equipment? First of all it's expensive, secondly it takes up room, and lastly the "features" dedicated a/v equipment have in my view can't make up for the first two reasons. You already have DVI on the best video cards, capability for a 24bit 96kHz audio system, a very stable OS with tons of integrated apps (talk about a feature rich a/v system) and AND you can even get a single IR remote (or use your bluetooth enabled cellphone) to control it all. It also looks good and is more feng-shui than a million cables and a rack of a/v equipment IMHO. :D

[mrsebastian]

let's look at this from a consumer stand point. the average person will not be able to deal with the complexities of a pc (or mac) media center, just think back to how hard it was for many people to program a vcr! the key is simplicity and that is why apple has not made a media center.

for one, unless you'll be able to do everything like control digital cable, recording (tivo), play dvds/cds/mpegs/mp3s/etc. and still be able to work/play, i think you'll be hard pressed to find people willing to give up their entertainment centers. what about a remote control for that matter?

let's say it did all that though, another issue would be actually using your computer and watching tv at the same time and the ergonimcs involved. your tv would have to be a second monitor, because like others have mentioned, no one in their right mind is going to gather the family around the computer to watch a dvd.

for now, i think a real media center would be too expensive and complex to produce for the mass market. i'd be the first inline if apple gave a viable option, but from an economics stand point for apple (or pc) to produce a real media center, it's a guaranteed loser.

[agreenster]

Truth is, I want my computer and my entertainment center separate. I think Jobs is right. I dont want my fridge to be my toaster.

I like to work when my wife is watching TV or movies, and if we had them all integrated, I probably couldnt do that. I'd rather have a TiVo and a G5 than a G5 that doubled as my TiVo. I couldnt imagine trying to get some work done while people constantly bug me to change the channel/radio station or ask me to record or playback tv or movies all day. That would get very distracting. We'd end up having to gt two computers, and that sorta defeats the purpose, right? Might as well just get a TiVo and save you the time and money.

[Dippo]

I have a computer that I use as a TV/VCR/DVD Player hooked to my TV. But I have nothing but problems when trying to do anything. And you can forget trying to record TV while doing something else, cause my computer ain't fast enough.

I really wanted to build a intergrated system at one time but after I calculated the cost it would have been almost $1500, and that is not worth it!

I think this whole integration idea is a BAD ONE! Your appliances are seperate for a reason! I would buy a Tivo if I could afford it.

The computer should do what it does best and leave the Tivo and DVD Player to what it does best!

[Gryphon]

I really noticed this when installing WinXP for a friend. The first time you boot up M$ opens windows with things like " You need a Passport to enjoy the internet. Sign up for one here." or " get your email account here" and all are links to MS stuff like Hotmail, MSN etc.

Now I know that you don't need these things but to someone who doesn't know computers very well, like the average consumer, they will go "Gee, I need this. Ok." and thus M$ has sucked in another hapless consumer into the M$ dominated world.

I can oonly see how this could be used or abused in the case of this media center. Imagine getting these popups on your TV... "In order to watch movies on demand, you need to sign up here. M$movie link" or " You need to sign up here in order to record Sports events. M$ Sports link"

Now you tell me that isn't anti-competitive or Monopolistic......

Another small item that is kinda associated with this is on the M$ site it says:

The Demo requires Microsoft Internet Explorer (version 5.0 or higher) and the Macromedia Flash Player (version 6.0).

"REQUIRES M$ IE?" It played just fine on my Mac with Safari and Netscape and my laptop with Linux in Opera. Just another example of M$ skewing the details to make people think that M$ is the only solution.

$0.02

[mjtomlin]

Well I don't own a TV or a stereo, but I do have a 17" iMac in my livingroom! ;) I use it to watch movies and play music (Harman/Kardon SoundSticks) and it works just fine for me and most people are impressed by the sound and video quality.

It works because, well, it's a Mac and easy to look at. I can't imagine having an ugly PC box sitting there for everyone to look at. But then, that's a matter of personal taste.

Integration works only when having every individual piece doesn't make sense. (Like not having the space for it or some components aren't important enough to invest in.)

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by 1adonis1
What's the difference between a "Media Center" and a "Digital Hub".

The "Media Center" concept has one all-powerful computer, period. The computer replaces your DVD player. The computer replaces you VCR/TiVO. The computer replaces your CD player. The computer replaces your receiver. The computer replaces your tuner.

The "Digital Hub" concept has one powerful computer ringed with separate devices all doing their own jobs. You have a DVD player to play DVDs. You have a TiVO to record shows and pause live TV. You have a CD player for your as-yet-unripped CD collection. You have a receiver and tuner and speakers to vibrate the air just like you've had more or less since the 1970's. The computer doesn't replace these products, it connects them.

Yes, in the Digital Hub there are on a whole many duplicated parts. Yes, your computer and DVD player and CD player all have a CD/DVD drive and mechanism. Yes, all components have their own power supplies.

However, there are distinct advantages to the Digital Hub:

1) No single point of failure. If your DVD player fries, you can still watch the news.

2) Simpler component interfaces, with the conceptual ability to provide a "unified" interface at the Hub if necessary. It is significantly easier to pop a DVD in your DVD player and watch a movie than it is to fiddle with software-based DVD players.

3) Discrete hardware aids "multitasking". Dad can do his spreadsheets on the Digital Hub while Junior watches Jurassic Park on the DVD player and Sister streams MP3's to her bedroom.

4) Spatiality of user interfaces: there is no temptation for the face of the DVD player to double as the TV controls or the receiver to control the CD player, in discrete components. In software, the interfaces have a unified look (to signal that they "go together") but no spatial relationship to aid the user in determining which is which (ie, the DVD player controls come up in the same place as the satellite controls ...)

5) Given the "multitasking" argument above, you will doubtless want a PC of some sort in your house anyways (you can't just skip doing taxes because Sally wants to watch the all-night marathon of All In The Family, right?); that means you've already got the Digital Hub. This puts a "Media Center" solution as a replacement for components, not for the PC itself. Cost wise, the Media Center is way too expensive to replace better-working components.

In summary, the Media Center sets out to replace nicely integrated, well-functioning, and relatively cheap components with a PC which has an unweildy interface, horrendous setup and maintenance issues (when was the last time your Pioneer receiver was hit with a Worm?), and illogical and inconsistent controls. And you want to do this while charging the customer 2-3 times as much as the components the Media Center replaces.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Damn, Time Warner here stuck me with a crappy Motorola digital cable box that can't do anything good.

I normally wouldn't recommend Dish to anyone (we were much happier with DirecTV before we moved ...) but Dish will provide you with a TiVO box (only single-tuner, though; you can only record one show at a time while viewing a pre-recorded show ... still, that's about like two VCRs ...) for a ~$20 "set-up fee". No monthly charges whatsoever (aside from the usual Dish charges, and the TiVO/Receiver unit both acts as and counts as one "room" of service).

If it weren't for the fact that the program guide is constantly in need of updating (you press "Guide" and one out of ten times you end up waiting a minute or so for the latest Guide to be downloaded from the satellite ... I NEVER had such a problem with DirecTV!) I would absolutely love Dish ...

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by xtekdiver
I agree with Arn, this is a real hack situation. I built my own Media Center PC, and it works...sort of. This is definitely first generation stuff and not for the neophyte PC user; but the possibilities are intriguing.


The problem is, this isn't first generation stuff! ATI's been at this for the better part of a decade, IIRC!

The MS Media Center is, however, a significantly improved revision of the old ATI AllInWonder concept car of the past. It's almost usable. However, fundamentally, there isn't a distinct advantage to be had, and there are still significant cost issues to be confronted.

[fpnc]

I think this whole debate about whether a PC can be a useful TV/media center is kind of misguided. Let's face it, in the future (near?) TVs will get more and more computing power and digital features. At the same time computers will get more media features. The only question is when will the crossover or convergence between TV and computer occur. That is, when will the TV and the computing device become the same thing? Whether this will happen in five years (unlikely), or ten years (possibly), or thirty years (almost certainly) is the only real debate.

As I heard someone say recently, in the not too distant future when we "old" guys and gals talk about PCs the young people may ask, "What's a PC?"

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by greenstork
I think M$ is on the right track but obviously a standalone PC to do the task of recording, playback movies, etc. is all wrong for the reasons mentioned in this thread. However, the ideas are outstanding. Look at what we are talking about:

1. recording and playback of TV, just like a Tivo. Equipped with the ability to watch one program and record 1-3 other programs simultaneously.


So long as those are over-the-air or standard cable probrams. No Digital Cable support; no Satellite support. You can buy or rent TiVO's with such built-in support from most cable and satellite providers.

It is far easier to convince a content provider to integrate with your recording device when they know that it is hard to pull recorded content off your device for use elsewhere. This is why you see no legal satellite or paid-cable decoder cards for PCs, and quite likely never will (not for many years, at least).

Again, I think that for these reasons amongst others, that's why TiVO functionality belongs in the ... TiVO ... instead of on your primary multi-purpose computer.


2. movies on-demand. With the exception of the pay-per-view channels on satellite and cable, this is a relatively new and burgeoning market.


May or may not take off. Two constraints: 1) bandwidth (too few homes with broadband now, especially with 3Mbps-ish sustainable and reliable downstream allocations); 2) quality (I don't care what you say; DiVX and WMV "quality" essentially sucks. If you can get a movie down to 500-750MB without degrading the quality to sub-VHS as DiVX and WMV do, then you can start trying to sell that to me ... until then, I'd rather stop by Blockbuster on the way home).

While it would be nice to support these, I don't see the need for this going through my primary computer, or really, through any general-purpose computer at all. There are multiple set-top-box initiatives for streaming video, which are further along than any decent-quality PC-based streaming initiatives.

Again, it is far easier to get a content provider to stream to a set-top box with limitted output capabilities (ie, just to the TV or possibly to an internal TiVO-like HD) than it is to get them to agree to streaming their content out into the wilds of a fully-functioning computer system. If there is one rallying cry amongst content providers today, it is "Control!"


3. Photos, music, digital hub stuff etc etc.


Which is done just as well and sometimes better with a "real" Digital Hub and a TiVO/HM setup. I don't think MS has innovated anything here.


4. Integration with your computer, access to computer files.


Is there really a market for displaying your tax return on the TV screen? You're home budget?

This is the only reason I can sort of see a Media Center PC being useful. On the other hand, even better would be a non-primary connection between the PC and the TV (by non-primary I mean that this connection is not always active, and need not be incredibly high-bandwidth) that allows display on the big-screen TV when necessary but overall is out of the way and ignored the 99% of the time when I don't want my PC's view being mirrored on the TV.


While I think M$ implementation of these concepts is poorly executed by developing a standalone PC, I do think Apple could mac out this setup .

I've been waiting for the next generation of Tivo to do just this, better integrate with my computer. An Apple appliance would be perfect. It serves all the functions of Tivo but also hooks into your computer, the internet, serves up photos, iTunes, recorded TV, movies on demand. It extends the digital hub from your office into your living room. Let's be realistic here, this is a natural and expected extension.


I agree with you here. Yes, the "next generation" of TiVO or TiVO-like devices will better integrate with your computer (allowing off-device archival of files perhaps). Significantly many of these use cases are fulfilled by the Home Media Option of the TiVO 2 (about $50 I believe), which provides a connection for photosand music as well as the usual TiVO things. You have to wait for that type of thing. However, you'll have to wait a significantly smaller amount of time for that than for the Media Center to become cheap and usable.

You also mentioned an Internet connection. While I agree that an Internet connection can be useful for many purposes, I strongly hope you aren't suggesting the old idea of surfing the web from your couch ... the TV resolution is just far too small for a meaningful web-surfing experience. Now, drawing program lists from an online site, keeping you "favorite" channels online instead of in the local box, and even being able to send or stream a low-quality version of recorded content ... those are good uses of an Internet connection. Just dont suggest surfing the web ... :)

[Doctor Q]

Disk Warrior for TIVO? :)

We techies know what goes on under the hood, but let's pretend we don't. We should start with this question: What do other consumers and I want to be able to do?

1. We want to see content when we want to see it, rather than when it was broadcast. We don't care whether it is provided on demand, recorded on a dedicated device, or recorded on our computers.

2. We want to watch video on our choice of screen. It might be our main computer monitor, a separate slaved monitor, or our TV screen. We don't care what's putting the signal there.

3. We want to listen on our choice of speakers. They might be part of the computer, a separate audio system, or even a handheld device like the iPod. We don't care how the sound is routed to get there or who is doing the decoding.

4. We want to use portable media to acquire and save our stuff so we can take the data with us when we want to.

5. We want the content that we have the capability to edit to be accessble to our software.

6. We want to use the computer keyboard and/or a handheld device (remote control, iPod, etc.) to program everything and control everything.

7. We don't want wires and cables everywhere, although wires between close-by nonportable devices are fine.

8. We want a socket (a place to plug in) each of our portable devices (cameras, music players, etc.)

If somebody makes this all work, and easy to use, both technies and nontechies will flock to it in, um..., er..., flocks!

[CaptainScarlet]

Originally posted by jettredmont
I agree with you here. Yes, the "next generation" of TiVO or TiVO-like devices will better integrate with your computer (allowing off-device archival of files perhaps).

That's a very bad idea!!!

The ability to "Rip and Save" to a computer has caused everyone a lot of grief!!!

I can just see it now, more and more law suits....

[greenstork]

Originally posted by jettredmont
Again, I think that for these reasons amongst others, that's why TiVO functionality belongs in the ... TiVO ... instead of on your primary multi-purpose computer.

I too think the idea of adding Tivo to a computer is silly, I am suggesting an Apple appliance or taking Tivo series two to the next level, i.e. more computer integration on distinctly separate appliances.

Again, it is far easier to get a content provider to stream to a set-top box with limitted output capabilities (ie, just to the TV or possibly to an internal TiVO-like HD) than it is to get them to agree to streaming their content out into the wilds of a fully-functioning computer system. If there is one rallying cry amongst content providers today, it is "Control!"

I agree that streaming movies-on demand is the way to go, I never suggested otherwise. I have to say though that I think you're a little off here, people absolutely want movies-on-demand and the market is moving to get that into your home. Agreed that they will need control but perhaps they will bend on this since you can copy a DVD to your VCR now. Any new appliance from Apple or an internet ready Tivo would surely prevent blatant copying digitally. However, they will never prevent recording onto a VCR since we already have that capability.

Which is done just as well and sometimes better with a "real" Digital Hub and a TiVO/HM setup. I don't think MS has innovated anything here.

I wasn't suggesting that M$ innovated, only that they are working with good ideas, i.e. integrating iLife type applications with your television, home audio, etc.

Is there really a market for displaying your tax return on the TV screen? You're home budget?

I guess I was referring to the above point that it would be useful to access files from your computer that include your photos, mp3's, etc. I wasn't really referring to your quicken files or mirroring your computer monitor, I see no use in using an OS X interface on your TV. It needs an interface like DirectTV or Tivo that can tap into files on your computer, that is all I was suggesting here.

You also mentioned an Internet connection. While I agree that an Internet connection can be useful for many purposes, I strongly hope you aren't suggesting the old idea of surfing the web from your couch ... the TV resolution is just far too small for a meaningful web-surfing experience. Now, drawing program lists from an online site, keeping you "favorite" channels online instead of in the local box, and even being able to send or stream a low-quality version of recorded content ... those are good uses of an Internet connection. Just dont suggest surfing the web ... :)

I think that surfing the web from your couch is a stupid idea too and I was not suggesting that at all. I was talking about the ability to stream content, access movies lists, reviews, weather forecasts-on-demand, etc. Whatever you can think of really, but it is IMPORTANT to note that whatever it's used for, that Apple is the brains behind the GUI. It's an appliance for TV and should have a TV interface that people are used to. The difference being that since you can access the internet, that you can pull up what you want, when you want. At first, this is probably information about TV programming or movies, or movies themselves, but as this the computer and home entertainment world further integrate, I could see this system being used as a portal for a lot more information. The integration of TV and home entertainment is inevitable as others on this post have said. At first, I see it as a super enhanced Tivo but as it evolves, you won't be able to distinguish your computer from your TV/Tivo device as it relates to digital media/entertainment.

[greenstork]

Originally posted by CaptainScarlet
That's a very bad idea!!!

The ability to "Rip and Save" to a computer has caused everyone a lot of grief!!!

I can just see it now, more and more law suits....

I just have to strongly disagree with you there. It's not a bad idea, it's poor execution. If it worked, you'd be excited. All of a sudden, you'd have all the content you wanted from TV programming on your computer and able to access when you want. I agree that computer systems like this have worked poorly but if designed correctly, which we all know that Apple can do, it would be nice. I'd prefer a separate appliance however. A standalone Apple/Tivo llike devidce with a 500GB hard drive that wirelessly connects to my computer for iLife type stuff.

[SiliconAddict]

Hmmmmm *Watches the super bowl as the alert icon that a critical security patch is now available for install flashes on the screen.
Honey I have to reboot the system I hope you and the boys don't mind....the 20....the 15....the...10.......SAVING SETTINGS.......NOW SHUTTING DOWN WINDOWS*

Yep. Good times ahead. Good times.

[daRAT]

Originally posted by Analog Kid
Me, for one... Saves me from owning a TV and all the crap that goes with it...

Not saying I'm normal, but a market of at least one exists... :)

Nope, make that TWO.

I use my Cube and a 20 Apple LCD to watch all my dvd's, except for when I toasted my internal dvd drive in the Cube :(

An external "superdrive" fixed that tho :P

[patrick0brien]

-Where is Vniow in all of this talk?

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by arn
There was another quote from Jobs that I couldn't find off hand...

Basically, it was one about a refridgerator and a toaster. The technology exists for your refridgerator to also make toast.... but no one wants that.

anyhow... an appropriate quote for this thread.

arn

"The refrigerator and the toaster aren't going to merge. Not everything is going to come together."

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Damn, Time Warner here stuck me with a crappy Motorola digital cable box that can't do anything good.

Was there a delay in getting it?

Originally posted by jettredmont
If it weren't for the fact that the program guide is constantly in need of updating (you press "Guide" and one out of ten times you end up waiting a minute or so for the latest Guide to be downloaded from the satellite ... I NEVER had such a problem with DirecTV!) I would absolutely love Dish ...

My parents have Dish at home and we never had that problem with it.

[greenstork]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac


My parents have Dish at home and we never had that problem with it.

Having DirectTv and Tivo are two different things. on a Tivo system, for whatever reason, accessing the guide can be a pain in the a$$.

[Decimal Dave]

I sort of agree with the swiss army anaolgy on this one. Just have a nice, cheap, and quiet DVD player and it'll be free of any hassle. As it happens though, I do have a PC in my living room that I use for movies which can't be played on a DVD player or on my G4. There are a lot of independent and foreign films that are downloadable online and only usable on a desktop computer. A Mac would be fine except for the huge number of crazy video formats and subtitle utilities that were only written for Windows. The same goes for HTPC gaming - right now if I want to play Battlefield 1942 on my front projector, a Windows box is the only way to do it.

I have to point out though that seeing the occasional blue screen 7 feet across is enough to give someone a heart attack.

[tutubibi]

Very good article on M$ Media PC:

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=11841

[iPC]

firstly....

media center = digital hub

what is the difference, other than physical location of the box?

as long as the thing has usb 2.0 / firewire / memory stick ports, wifi, space for 2 hdd (a la TiVo), optical drive (tied in with xbox), modem, 10/100/1000 ethernet, etc. then I would be a happy boy. thing is, it has to work like a TiVo or a xbox does; plug it in, turn it on, and use it. no BSD's, no beach balls, and no reboots.

tighter system integration will happen eventually. i just don't think M$ or Apple are the ones to provide it. they just don't have the vision. sorry.

[Alex Leith]

I think Media Center PCs are a clever marketing trick - but I don't think the majority of people will find them quite as "convenient" idea as they might think.

You use a computer and a TV in fundamentally different ways. You sit close to a computer so you can see the details of what you're working on. But you sit back from a TV so you can see the whole picture.

Who wants a TV at desk height anyway? And who wants to use a computer that's sitting on a knee height stand (or the floor)?

The Media Center PC is an example of a multifunction device that has to compromise to perform any of its functions, and fails to excel in any of them!

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by iPC
firstly....

media center = digital hub

what is the difference, other than physical location of the box?

-iPC

The difference is that a hub is at the senter of the wheel with spokes radiating outward to the edges. The media center tries to be the entire wheel.

Taking that out of analogy and into the current context, this shows a fundamental difference between the current philosophies of Microsoft and Apple. Apple delegates functions to the devices best suited to perform those functions, while Microsoft attempts to provide one-stop-shopping.

Take, for example Outlook. Here is an app that is an emailer, a calendar, and contact manager in one app, we all can agree it is advantageous to have these three functions able to communicate with each other as the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Apple delegates these functions to specialized applications, Mail.app for email, iCal for calendar, and Address Book for contact management - but still allows each of these apps to intercommunicate, and does so as if ther are all in one.

As a project manager I prefer Apple's approach for several reasons:

1. Worms and virii - in Apple's approach, they would be contained and non-communicable.

2. Developement is easier and better managed as each app is developable on their own schedule, and a result of that the version control of the builds is easier to manage. This results in more nimble developement and an overarching simplicity. The aspect the end-user sees to all of this is better performance, faster developement of features, and less complexity.

Ok, now project this into the Media Center. By having a full-blown machine capable of performing the functions of dedicated components (that I already own) at far more the price, with far less the performance (due to the compexity of the software that is necesasary to support such an all-in-one device), I find it difficult to justify.

Apples approach, and I agree they need to start one, would be to have a set-top controller that allows these standard components (DVD paler, Receiver, CD player, VCR, TiVo, etc.) to do what they do best, and simply act as a command center that is slimmer (physically as well as functionally) that allows distribution. Also, if one of the devices goes down, don't sacrifice my whole A/V system while it is getting repaired.

Two aspects to [both Outlook and] the Media Center that stick in my craw is the danger of having one's "Eggs in one basket", and the "Jack of all trades: Good at everything, master of nothing".

[iPC]

Originally posted by patrick0brien
-iPC

The difference is that a hub is at the senter of the wheel with spokes radiating outward to the edges. The media center tries to be the entire wheel.

Taking that out of analogy and into the current context, this shows a fundamental difference between the current philosophies of Microsoft and Apple. Apple delegates functions to the devices best suited to perform those functions, while Microsoft attempts to provide one-stop-shopping.

Take, for example Outlook. Here is an app that is an emailer, a calendar, and contact manager in one app, we all can agree it is advantageous to have these three functions able to communicate with each other as the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Apple delegates these functions to specialized applications, Mail.app for email, iCal for calendar, and Address Book for contact management - but still allows each of these apps to intercommunicate, and does so as if ther are all in one.

As a project manager I prefer Apple's approach for several reasons:

1. Worms and virii - in Apple's approach, they would be contained and non-communicable.

2. Developement is easier and better managed as each app is developable on their own schedule, and a result of that the version control of the builds is easier to manage. This results in more nimble developement and an overarching simplicity. The aspect the end-user sees to all of this is better performance, faster developement of features, and less complexity.

Ok, now project this into the Media Center. By having a full-blown machine capable of performing the functions of dedicated components (that I already own) at far more the price, with far less the performance (due to the compexity of the software that is necesasary to support such an all-in-one device), I find it difficult to justify.

Apples approach, and I agree they need to start one, would be to have a set-top controller that allows these standard components (DVD paler, Receiver, CD player, VCR, TiVo, etc.) to do what they do best, and simply act as a command center that is slimmer (physically as well as functionally) that allows distribution. Also, if one of the devices goes down, don't sacrifice my whole A/V system while it is getting repaired.

Two aspects to [both Outlook and] the Media Center that stick in my craw is the danger of having one's "Eggs in one basket", and the "Jack of all trades: Good at everything, master of nothing".
I guess the idea of modular software is lost on you. Of course, that is why I stated that neither M$ or Apple would be the one to get it right. Someone else will.

And thank you for describing to a mechanical engineer what a hub is! ;)

Your approach is to just replace the receiver with something slightly more complex? What a waste. That is not "innovation" (what a overused word...), just a lame replacement. It is just another component to add to the stack. The point is to get rid of the stack. I don't need another component. I want a replacement for all that stuff.

I was under the impression that the difference in Apple's software design philosophy (wrt mail / calendar / contacts) was merely external point of view. Just because they are seperate links to start, they are all using the same libraries and db. Sounds like Outlook to me...

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by iPC
I guess the idea of modular software is lost on you. Of course, that is why I stated that neither M$ or Apple would be the one to get it right. Someone else will.

And thank you for describing to a mechanical engineer what a hub is! ;)

Your approach is to just replace the receiver with something slightly more complex? What a waste. That is not "innovation" (what a overused word...), just a lame replacement. It is just another component to add to the stack. The point is to get rid of the stack. I don't need another component. I want a replacement for all that stuff.

I was under the impression that the difference in Apple's software design philosophy (wrt mail / calendar / contacts) was merely external point of view. Just because they are seperate links to start, they are all using the same libraries and db. Sounds like Outlook to me...

-iPC

You missed my point, oh well.

As for "Just because they are seperate links to start, they are all using the same libraries and db.", yes, it would if they did share the same db, but they don't. They are wholly and completely separate applications, and call the others when a piece of information is needed.

As for adding components? Well this is the realm of personal preferences and I won't dare presume your values are the same as mine. Personally, I like the modular environs for the afore-mentioned reasons. All I would want from such a device would be voice/computer/web control of the components or something, but then, I'm not really in the market for anything like this anyway.

Additionally please take care of who you talk down to, and if you don't feel that you did, I took the comment "I guess the idea of modular software is lost on you.", that way. You have no idea what I am capable of, please don't presume that comments like that apply to me or others.

[iPC]

Originally posted by patrick0brien
Additionally please take care of who you talk down to, and if you don't feel that you did, I took the comment "I guess the idea of modular software is lost on you.", that way. You have no idea what I am capable of, please don't presume that comments like that apply to me or others.
My presumption was in response to yours (hub comment). What is the phrase dealing with the kitchen and heat... or was it the pot and the kettle?

;)

As to the db issue, why the heck would you have a address book, complete with all necessary contact info, and then replicate that for a (subpar) email client? That seems foolish to me. Good way to keep more programmers on the payroll I suppose...

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by iPC
MAs to the db issue, why the heck would you have a address book, complete with all necessary contact info, and then replicate that for a (subpar) email client? That seems foolish to me. Good way to keep more programmers on the payroll I suppose...

-iPC

Actually the email client, Mail.app has no internal contact list. Instead it consults Address Book for it. Therefore, you can, of course get your recipient's emails, but also addresses you save go there as well.

The integration is so transparent it appears that the contacts are stored in Mail.app itself, and I for one, love this aspect. I also like the fact that it looks up the email recipients as you type, narrowing the choices further as one adds keystrokes, instead of waiting for a search button to be pressed.

As for the hub comment, no presumption intended, I used that as an analogous extension to your digital hub vs. media center question. It's felt logical to use that context. :)

[iPC]

Originally posted by patrick0brien
-iPC

Actually the email client, Mail.app has no internal contact list. Instead it consults Address Book for it. Therefore, you can, of course get your recipient's emails, but also addresses you save go there as well.

The integration is so transparent it appears that the contacts are stored in Mail.app itself, and I for one, love this aspect. I also like the fact that it looks up the email recipients as you type, narrowing the choices further as one adds keystrokes, instead of waiting for a search button to be pressed.

As for the hub comment, no presumption intended, I used that as an analogous extension to your digital hub vs. media center question. It's felt logical to use that context. :)
No worries. :)

The integration of Mail.app with Address Book is no different than Outlook, IMO. It's just that Outlook goes for that annoying AOL style interface, instead of separate windows that feel like separate programs. The search aspect of typing in the address is nice (pine even uses it!), I never did understand the whole process of

click the To: button
type in the first few letters of name
once highlited name is what you want, hit enter twice
then returns you to the email, but the cursor is on the To: button and not after the contact just entered...? Idiots.

Makes me wonder what MS uses for their internal mail application.... ;)

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by iPC
Makes me wonder what MS uses for their internal mail application.... ;)

-iPC

They don't use Outlook, they use an internal app called "LookOut!".

Ok, yes. That was bad. :D

[Doctor Q]

From CNET review: Media Centers of attention (http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3118_7-5083732.html):

Rating - system
8.3 - HP Pavilion zd7000
8.1 - ZT Home Theatre PC A5071
7.8 - HP Media Center PC m300y
7.8 - Toshiba Satellite P25 series
7.6 - Dell Dimension 4600C with Media Center
6.6 - ViewSonic NextVision M2100 Digital Media Center
not rated - Gateway 610 Media Center
not rated - Toshiba Satellite P15-S479

Overall, they say "Windows Media Center 2004 is a big step in the right direction, but there is still room for improvement."

[iPC]

big step in the right direction, but room to improve... that can be said about any major software upgrade (OS X versus OS 9 for example)....

*sigh*

i wish i could think outside of the box and develop the end-all-be-all device. :(

[frankinla]

For Pro users, the computer is simply a data processor... be the user an accountant or a video editor, he has a task to perform, and wants the best hardware to get it done. He probably has a descrete fax machine, a disrete phone system, etc., so as to get the most/best use out of the differing systems.

For the home user, a computer is a communications/entertainment device, and only occassionaly a data processor.

In fact it's pretty much all about communications/entertainment. Yes, there is the once monthly quiken ritual and a little pic loading (data processing), but it's more likely to be about web browsing, emailing, game playing, chatting, mp3s, et al.

Adding video to the mix is not a stretch or beyond the point. While I wouldn't watch video on a 15 CRT, I would watch a 19 LCD or out put to a 36 TV.

In fact.. I do! ATI AIW 8500dv, rf remote control and hdtv out! Wonder-ful (pun intended). Cable in, aduio/video out to every srceen and stereo in my place, and one RF remote to control it all... real time tv, tv on demand, time shifting, Guide+, dvd playing, mp3 playing... it's all there...

When people see it, it's like wow! didn't know you could do that! How do I do that?

But it's not on my iMac... can't be... the hardware and software are is not there to do it in mpeg2 quality. Beleive me i looked... yes formac has a box, if you wanna shell out all kinds of money for it... yes theres eyetv, at mpeg1 (yuk)...

The best cards for this are agp or pci... not available for the iMac. Some stuff is available for PCI Macs... but the entry point for that is to high for this home user.

I put My AMD/AIW system together w/ all the connecting hardware, bigger HD, extra ram, etc, for about a grand, including a 19" crt (AMD 2k $500, AIW $170, 512 RAM $60, 120GB $100, Refrb 19" $140, cables about $50), less of course the TV's and Stereo I already had.

Building your own is not for everyone, but now you don't have to. And once people see it, they want it!

Screw Tivo and another monthly fee... cable pvr's have restrictions and cost not mentioned b4... and especially screw the folks who think that just because Jobs doesn't endorse it, it shouldn't be done. It's being done now, and you're gonna see alot more of it, because it makes sense.

Convergance is here... adapt or go broke!

Hey Steve.. you listening?

[Dippo]

A long time ago, I used my computer for an answering machine. I don't anymore, guess why?

A long time ago, I used to use my computer to listen to CDs. I don't anymore, guess why?

I used to use my computer to watch DVDs. I don't anymore, guess why?

Answer:
I bought a stand alone device that could do the function MUCH BETTER without tying up my computer. Same goes for the Tivo entertainment functions.

Why use a $2000-$3000 machine to answer calls when you could buy a $15 answering machine? Same goes for the Media PC's!

[frankinla]

HUH...

A long time ago, I used my computer for
an answering machine. I don't
anymore, guess why?

The technology wasn't there... I drive to work every day... But not in a bumpy uncomfortable Model T Ford. Oh and don't forget VoIP!!


A long time ago, I used to use my
computer to listen to CDs. I don't
anymore, guess why?


Cause you can't take your computer to the Gym? I guess thats what the iPods for... Guess what? Deep down inside it's a computer.

I used to use my computer to watch
DVDs. I don't anymore, guess why?


You used to watch DVD's on your computer!!! That must have been torture! Why would you do that?

I bought a stand alone device that
could do the function MUCH BETTER
without tying up my computer. Same
goes for the Tivo entertainment
functions.

Those days are numbered... Pluging in a seperate fax, answering machine, printer, scanner, Tivo, TV, Stereo, cordless phone, cable box, et al, will become as passe as:
Walking into a bank to withdraw money (bet you didn't like ATM's when they first came out: the personal service thing, right?)
Boiling water on the stove (damn Mr Coffee never gets it right, does it?)
Mailing important documents (still can't read those facsimilies on that cruddy thermal paper, yuk)
and i could go on about other dissed technology like microwaves, colour tv, etc.. the first run through is never good, but the techonology can be built on .


Why use a $2000-$3000 machine to
answer calls when you could buy a $15
answering machine?

good question! Why would you? But it's not just the answering machine... It's a whole host of communication functions.. and its only gonna cost 2000-3000 if you insist on a G5.

Same goes for the Media PC's!

No... the CD and DVD are temporary formats domed to oblivion, just like the 8track, cassette, LP, floppy disk, zip disk, et al... all files will exist digitally and streamed to they player... and that player, wether it stands alone or as part of an integrated package WILL BE A COMPUTER!!!

Have you checked the specs on your CD player, DVD, iPod, digital answering machine, etc... they already are computer... not 64 bit power house for sure, but computers none the less.. LOL.. duh.

You just got a lot more stuff to plug in than I do.

[patrick0brien]

-frankinla

What's your point?

[VestWithSleeves]

I'm just looking for a solution, an ultimate solution.

My situation is somewhat simple. I'm not a techie, i'm just an ordinary consumer looking for more.

I currently have a normal large screen TV hooked up to a radio receiver, VCR, DVD player, and sound system.

I dream of having a system that does a few simple things. I want a large LCD or plasma TV. I want a sound system to go along with that. I want a computer, easily sitting right next to my TV system, that will do the following: Play Internet radio, mp3, and DVDs (downloaded from movielink.com for example, or from its internal SuperDrive) all through this main TV/sound system. I don't want multiple remotes. I don't want a clutter of devices. I want a G5 running the media to the system. I want to be able to access the desktop through the TV. I want to use a bluetooth keyboard and trackpad to navigate from my couch or chair across the room.

This computer is not meant to be a computer used for personal task, such as typing, or browsing the web, though they are possible. I want it to just broadcast media to my TV/Sound system.

How can I do this?

[patrick0brien]

-VestWithSleeves

Rumor has it Apple's going to soolve this with a tablet computer of some kind in the next few months.

[quixotic]

I don't think it's a matter of if or should.

If you had to decide between tv and internet which would you
choose?

If you had to decide where your dollars go, an excellent tv set or a killer monitor, which would you get?

A bad ass sound system for your tv/stereo, or for the ultimate gaming experience?

Who has the money/space for all this stuff? The average person in their late 20's early 30's and on with a job and disposable income.

Most people under the age of 25 are using their computers for a hell of a lot more than working on their tax returns and printing xmas cards. Yeah the TiVo IS cool, but so what, who gives a _ especially at >$200 when I can do it on my PC for free. I want video games, email, and internet. I want to listen to my CD's while I rip them and watch DVD's with the same killer sound. AND the big thing- there is no way I could survive without a computer, none, the only question is which one to get. So screw the tv and the TiVo and the DVD player and...

[Jeff_R]

I was thinking, and, although Tivo has started this, how about a "mini-PC" for the living room? A hard drive for recording programs, wireless or wired network access to pull photos and music and other media from your PC. Now, if Apple could make this mini-device, I would be right there. You know it would work dependably, look good, and be a really impressive piece of technology.

Of course, that's just me....

Jeff

[sahnert]

Originally posted by Analog Kid
Me, for one... Saves me from owning a TV and all the crap that goes with it...

Not saying I'm normal, but a market of at least one exists... :)

me too. no space in the dorm for a tv.

[Qunchuy]

Originally posted by frankinla
HUH...


A long time ago, I used to use my
computer to listen to CDs. I don't
anymore, guess why?


Cause you can't take your computer to the Gym? I guess thats what the iPods for... Guess what? Deep down inside it's a computer.

No, deep down inside it contains a computer. The difference is important. Like a VCR or microwave oven or fancy washing machine, the iPod uses software to perform its function. That function is to record and play videotapes, or heat food, or clean clothes, or play digitized music.

The function of a computer is to run software. Running software is not the goal of someone who wants to watch a movie.

[Qunchuy]

Originally posted by frankinla
I put My AMD/AIW system together w/ all the connecting hardware, bigger HD, extra ram, etc, for about a grand, including a 19" crt (AMD 2k $500, AIW $170, 512 RAM $60, 120GB $100, Refrb 19" $140, cables about $50), less of course the TV's and Stereo I already had.

Building your own is not for everyone, but now you don't have to. And once people see it, they want it!

Screw Tivo and another monthly fee... cable pvr's have restrictions and cost not mentioned b4... and especially screw the folks who think that just because Jobs doesn't endorse it, it shouldn't be done. It's being done now, and you're gonna see alot more of it, because it makes sense.

Convergance is here... adapt or go broke!

Hey Steve.. you listening?

You spent over a thousand dollars to build something that does basically the same thing as a TiVo plus DVD player. I spent $500 for a TiVo with lifetime service, plus $50 for a DVD player. Who's going broke?

[patrick0brien]

-All

Important point: Does anybody remember TV's with built-in VCR's? Well the primary issue to that was if the VCR broke down, you had to send your TV in at the same time - thus lose you TV too.

I have this same fundamental problem with the all-in-one eggs-in-one basket philosophy of Microsoft, and it's simmilar foray into the Media Center PC's. I don't believe having your videos, CD,s and Pictures etc, on one media-serving box, even if the OS was not susceptible to ills often associated with Windows.

I would prefer an array of task-based mini devices, each with their own purpose. Which leads me back to the componentized stereo I already own.

Though it would be nifty to have some devices that could integrate with it that could pass pictures to the TV and run iTunes streams. It sounds to me like an enhanced receiver would do the trick.

I still don't see the benefit of a Media Center PC over what already exists.

[Qunchuy]

Originally posted by frankinla
I bought a stand alone device that
could do the function MUCH BETTER
without tying up my computer. Same
goes for the Tivo entertainment
functions.

Those days are numbered... Pluging in a seperate fax, answering machine, printer, scanner, Tivo, TV, Stereo, cordless phone, cable box, et al, will become as passe as:
Walking into a bank to withdraw money (bet you didn't like ATM's when they first came out: the personal service thing, right?)
Boiling water on the stove (damn Mr Coffee never gets it right, does it?)
Mailing important documents (still can't read those facsimilies on that cruddy thermal paper, yuk)


You might want to reconsider those examples. In each case, you've pointed out something where a separate "appliance" does the job where a monolithic central all-in-one "solution" was there before. An ATM is a "cash dispensing appliance" which works better for many people's needs than a full-service bank building. A Mr. Coffee is a "water heating/coffee making appliance" which works better for many people than a more general range top plus kettle. A facsimile machine is a "document transmission appliance" that works better for many people than a large network of trucks and postal workers who can deliver much more than simple photocopies of paper.

It sounds like what you're calling "passe" is the integrated solution, not the standalone one. Everything you listed argues for a dedicated device that can focus on its task.

It would obviously be beneficial for these dedicated devices to be able to cooperate, but that's not at all the same thing as having their functions all be provided by a larger, more complicated device.

[Qunchuy]

Originally posted by patrick0brien
Though it would be nifty to have some devices that could integrate with it that could pass pictures to the TV and run iTunes streams. It sounds to me like an enhanced receiver would do the trick.

TiVo does exactly that. For a $99 one-time fee, you can enable the built-in feature on a Series 2 TiVo. Make the network connection, run the little "server" program on your Mac or Windows PC, and your off-the-shelf TiVo will show pictures and play music from the computer.

It's not free, but it's a lot less than you'd pay for the same thing as part of a dedicated Home Media PC.

[bwilke]

You used to watch DVD's on your computer!!! That must have been torture! Why would you do that?


Anyone who own a video projector. An 800x600 (max res for an Infocus X1) image is much better than 480p.

[1macker1]

WOW you must stay in a tiny dorm room. Do you sleep standing up.:)
Originally posted by sahnert
me too. no space in the dorm for a tv.

[sahnert]

Originally posted by 1macker1
WOW you must stay in a tiny dorm room. Do you sleep standing up.:)

okay....no COUNTER space in the dorm for a tv. I guess I could set it on the floor, but that wouldn't really be worth it.. also there are no more outlets after I've used up two power strips and my roommate is using one strip and another outlet. Had to get a Dr. Ferd's Wart Remover also so that I can have my keyboard and printer both plugged in at the same time. It sucked having to crawl down there to switch them. Probably would blow the circuit if I added anything else.
Might as well use my computer. Plus I can watch movies wherever I want. I can sit in my bed, or sit in my comfy chair at my desk. Or go down to the lounge. It's a PBook of course.
But just because I watch movies on it doesn't mean I would spring for the media center idea. If you try to put too many functions in one piece of equipment, it means each function can only be mediocre. I think I'd rather get high quality + more features out of different devices. I think my PBook strikes a good balance of doing my music/projects/internet/homework and (movies) in parentheses because i'm sure most will disagree with that.