Is Mac OS X Panther 7B85 Gold Master?

[MacRumors]

MacGuardians.de (http://www.macguardians.de/) claims that Panther 7B85 has gone Gold Master and is already in duplication. An anonymous MacRumors report, today, also claimed that build 7B85 would be Gold Master.

While neither source has had much of a rumor history, speculation about Final Candidate status on the Panther Builds has grown since internal build 7B80 (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/09/20030927162856.shtml) was stripped of its Pre Release (http://www.chaosmint.com/macintosh/articles/mac-os-x-panther-about.shtml) designation.

Reports of Build 7B85 (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/09/20030929122458.shtml) showed up on Monday as an Internal Release at Apple. No details on the build were available, but AppleInsider since noted (http://www.appleinsider.com/news.php?id=207) some very minor tweaks in the 7B85 build.

Tentative target dates are rumored to be October 24th (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/09/20030922162504.shtml) or 25th (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/10/20031001061144.shtml).

[sososowhat]

Bring it on!

[danielgrenell]

YES!!!

[Dippo]

Does anyone know how long it normally takes to go from starting duplication to shipping date.

3 weeks seems like a very long time, maybe they will shipped sooner, and at the same time with iTunes for Windows :)

[TylerL]

Jaguar hit GM almost a month before it was finally released.
In fact, a revision of G4 towers and eMacs came preloaded with 10.2 two weeks before its release.

I'm surprised they went GM so quickly, especially since they were throwing out new builds almost daily. You'd think they'd want to beat the crap out of a FC build for a few days before declaring it "perfect".

...and as of 7B80, there were still some bugs I would like to see fixed. If only I had an ADC account, I'd report them... :p

[kugino]

Originally posted by Dippo
Does anyone know how long it normally takes to go from starting duplication to shipping date.

3 weeks seems like a very long time, maybe they will shipped sooner, and at the same time with iTunes for Windows :)

The physical aspects of mass-producing the CDs (or maybe DVDs?) shouldn't take long...and I'm sure they already have all the packaging ready...it's just a matter of when Jobs and co. want to unveil the product.

[ColoJohnBoy]

Awesome!!!!! Oh! Oh! Oh! There is no emoticon for what I'm feeling!! I hope it's soon! REALLY soon!!!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Freg3000]

Here we go guys.....time to argue about the Gold Master build!!!

[arn]

I guess a caveat is that this is from unconfirmed sources.

The reason it made it to page one is that MacGuardians is not a usual rumor suspect, and it correlated with an anonymous report.

so, take with grain of salt... and let's hope.

arn

[bitfactory]

what happened to the "slew of new animated effects and interface changes" in 81? looks like it was BS.

[Powerbook G5]

I can't wait, I have been almost as excited about Panther as the new 15" PowerBooks, so this is a pretty big month for me. :)

[syrreg]

Shouldn't Apple already be accepting pre-orders from consumers if they really are that close to release.?

I don't think you can even pre-order Panther from Amazon at this point - but I'm pretty sure Jaguar was available for pre-order a few weeks before it actually was RTM.

[FattyMembrane]

Originally posted by bitfactory
what happened to the "slew of new animated effects and interface changes" in 81? looks like it was BS.
i was wondering the same thing. the scroll bars and traffic widgets are still in the blurry 10.0 style, the small buttons are still in the 10.2 style, and that annoying little square in the corner of two joining scroll bars is still there. apple takes the time to color the help button purple and re-shade the about box logo but leaves the rest of the interface looking like it was put together from pieces found at a garage sale.

ok, ok, it still looks pretty damn good, i just can't believe there are such glaring oversights.

[Foxer]

(tent fingers) "excellent..."

[tutubibi]

I reallly hope it's true, it makes sense for Oct 24th release. I am waiting for Panther to become official "switcher".
On the other hand, Oct 24 may be too optimistic. It would beat commited "end of the year" timeline by more than 2 months (SW industry first :D ).

[themadchemist]

well, I hope so.

I will NOT buy a new Mac only to discover that a bit more than 30 days later (after which point it would be difficult to convince Apple to give me the update for free), a new major revamp of the OS is released to know that I had enough OBVIOUS evidence of its imminent release to have served as a suppression for my eagerness to purchase a new computer.

So c'mon already! A guy's only got so much self-restraint, Apple!

[kainjow]

October 24 is my birthday!! Maybe I can get it as a gift! Holy wak that'd rule.

I want SPEED.

[reckless_0001]

I read somewhere that in 7B74 a guy could only connect to Windows servers (lol) in the network pane. Appletalk servers would not show up unless he used their IP in the connect to server menu. That should be fixed now right?

[Magicite]

Originally posted by TylerL
Jaguar hit GM almost a month before it was finally released.
In fact, a revision of G4 towers and eMacs came preloaded with 10.2 two weeks before its release.

From Jaguar GM to storeshelves, it was *slightly* less than 2 weeks, if memory serves.

The G4 towers and eMacs you speak of did not come preloaded with 10.2 and in fact only had the 10.2 full CDs thrown into the boxes. 10.2 was not preinstalled on these machines until their next revision.

[matthew24]

We :) are :cool: going :p to ;) be :cool: proud :D again!

[foniks2020]

I got my Jaguar CD box one week before it hit shelves.. I pre-ordered.

[stingerman]

It doesn't matter, I'll wait a month maybe two before buying since I don't want to be one of the early testers. I am just hoping that this release includes an update to the PowerMac G4 and makes it Apple's headless desktop solution.

[beerguy]

Okay - I'm fairly new to this whole Apple way of doing things. I got my 15" PB the day after they were announced. Am I going to have to pay to upgrade?

[sososowhat]

Originally posted by foniks2020
I got my Jaguar CD box one week before it hit shelves.. I pre-ordered.
That was the old Apple. Pre-ordering now ensures it won't arrive till Rev B's on the shelves.

[kugino]

Originally posted by beerguy
Okay - I'm fairly new to this whole Apple way of doing things. I got my 15" PB the day after they were announced. Am I going to have to pay to upgrade?

plan on dishing out another $129

[MrMacMan]

Well this seems like good news, but I know there we a few bugs in 80?

They were all hammered out already?

[j33pd0g]

Originally posted by kainjow
October 24 is my birthday!! Maybe I can get it as a gift! Holy wak that'd rule.

I want SPEED.

October 26 over here... Panther would be a nice b-day present indeed!

[iHack]

Originally posted by Dippo
Does anyone know how long it normally takes to go from starting duplication to shipping date.

3 weeks seems like a very long time, maybe they will shipped sooner, and at the same time with iTunes for Windows :)

Three weeks from an Apple build on some G5 cluster in Cupertino to a neat row of Panther boxes on a shelf in a store near you doesn't sound like a long time to me. Shipping G5's and 12" PB's seems to take a lot of time too. Expect panthers in your local store's storage rooms up to a week in advance of the official release date.
Yes, we are going to hear rumours about mysterious pallets being delivered to stores, with notices not to open them before 10/24...

Does anyone remember how many 'jaguars' were sold in the first week or so?

I'd like a Dutch version. Can't remember if that's included in the same box, or if I'm going to have to wait for a localised version. Any info?

M.

[supercres]

I just got my new 15" in the mail yesterday, and I'm still hoping for a free upgrade. (OK, that's a lie. It's at home, 1000 miles away, waiting for me :( )

C'mon Apple! Get that OS out in the next 29 days!

[iHack]

Originally posted by stingerman
It doesn't matter, I'll wait a month maybe two before buying since I don't want to be one of the early testers. I am just hoping that this release includes an update to the PowerMac G4 and makes it Apple's headless desktop solution.

What would you want a headless desktop for? Planning on using it as a server? Why would you want to use panther (client)? Just wondering...

Am I being headless here for not getting it or is it just you?

M.

[bennetsaysargh]

wow. i wouldn't even have to think about pre-ordering it. i would. never pre-order it., then you miss out on the fun at the apple store! i mean, you can't show up and not buy anything like a regular day. i want to see if they have the big "X" shelf like jaguar did:)

[snofseth]

Originally posted by kainjow
October 24 is my birthday!! Maybe I can get it as a gift! Holy wak that'd rule.

I want SPEED.

Its my birthday too

[jaykk]

cool, great news. I was waiting for Panther to order new 15 PB, pre-installed with Panther. I dont want to shell out another $129, knowing apple very well. They will offer some kind of upgrade for new owners, but restricted to people who purchased a new system a week or so.

[zac4mac]

Nice timing. Ordered a dual G5 a couple of weeks ago and the tentative ship date is 10/31. "Trick" would be to ship early, "Treat" would be to come early with Panther.

[j33pd0g]

Does this mean that 10.2.8 just happens to no longer exist? I wonder if they'll ever re-release it?

[coolbreeze]

Originally posted by j33pd0g
Does this mean that 10.2.8 just happens to no longer exist? I wonder if they'll ever re-release it?
There's quite a few folks that have downloaded 10.2.8 and don't like it very much. I surely hope Apple isn't going to get quiet and hope these early-downloaders (me) just buy Panther. 10.2.8.1 anyone?

[maler]

To be honest, i belive, that it's NOT a golden master yet. I belive that after disaster with 10.2.8, when whole quality assurance department shoudl scratch they heads, they will run through complete standard FC builds run (usualy few builds are testes before GM is declared). I prefer two weeks later, without major glitches, than to wait for another small update... so, be realistic and don't be in hurry - later is sometimes better.

btw, if my notes are right, GM of Jaguar was 6c115, which was released on 31. july 2002 and few days later (2nd, 3th august?) was declared as a GM. Oficial shiping started at 24. august.

[canadianmacguy]

Originally posted by TylerL

I'm surprised they went GM so quickly, especially since they were throwing out new builds almost daily. You'd think they'd want to beat the crap out of a FC build for a few days before declaring it "perfect".

...and as of 7B80, there were still some bugs I would like to see fixed. If only I had an ADC account, I'd report them... :p

I have an ADC account, and the last official build up there is 7B74. Not sure where you got 7B80, but not from Apple.

(ie. they very well could be doing a beat the crap out of it right now and for the next few days. Declaring something GM doesn't mean it's really GM, if something serious comes up).

[j33pd0g]

Originally posted by zac4mac
Nice timing. Ordered a dual G5 a couple of weeks ago and the tentative ship date is 10/31. "Trick" would be to ship early, "Treat" would be to come early with Panther.


I don't know... I ordered my 1.25 DP G4 about a month after 10.2.6 was out. I think 10.2.5 was out at least 2 months before that. In the end the 1.25 DP G4 shipped with 10.2.4. I ordered it through Apple too. Of course 10.2.6 was a free update so maybe that's why.

[iriejedi]

I think Apple should release it on the 31st and allow any one who has paid for X, X.1 or X.2 to say trick or treat and they in turn get a free copy of X.3 - this will make OS "X dot" a $400+ OS


Still $400 for a Mac OS is better then buying a PC and at least I finally got my faster system Bus!

Go G5!

G

[CaptainScarlet]

Originally posted by canadianmacguy
I have an ADC account, and the last official build up there is 7B74. Not sure where you got 7B80, but not from Apple.

(ie. they very well could be doing a beat the crap out of it right now and for the next few days. Declaring something GM doesn't mean it's really GM, if something serious comes up).


Then where else would they get it from?!!?!?!


Microsoft?!!?!?!?


If there are internal releases, then someone that works at apple released it....

I would value my job better then that!!!

[legacyb4]

Argh, I'm needing to pick up a laptop sometime next week from the local store. Guess that means it's more than unlikely that I will have a free update to Panther... :(

Cheers.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by canadianmacguy
I have an ADC account, and the last official build up there is 7B74. Not sure where you got 7B80, but not from Apple.

(ie. they very well could be doing a beat the crap out of it right now and for the next few days. Declaring something GM doesn't mean it's really GM, if something serious comes up). as an ADC member, do you have access to the very latest builds, or do you think it's more reasonable that as they approach GM they release the newer builds to fewer and fewer developers?

[QuiteSure]

I'm waiting for Panther to come out to get a new computer; figure it knocks $129 off the purchase price!

[azdude]

Well... We're going to miss the fancy 10/3 release date for v10.3, but how about 10/30? 10/30 would be almost as good a day as 10/3 for an Apple Retail Store Panther Party. ;)

[SiliconAddict]

Bah! Panther is so yesterday’s news. ;) When can we expect Tiger, or was it Lynx, to be released?

[Rus Shackleford]

It might also be good if "duale" was changed to "dual"....

[bennetsaysargh]

Originally posted by coolbreeze 10.2.8.1 anyone? [/B]

lol. that will b easy to say really fast:p
steve jobs would say "Mac O S Ten dot Two dot Eight dot One:)"

[azdude]

In some of the first Panther screenshots I saw, the Display Preferences panel title bar was spelled "Dislay Preferences." Has this been fixed?

[e2chris]

I dont know about you guys but when Jaguar was released at like midnight was it?? It was a mess. I went to the Rockingham Apple Store and the line was soooo long just to buy Jaguar. It was mainly because it was SO friggin unorganized it was pathetic. If they do the same thing for Panther I hope the hell they have a dedicated LINE just to buy Panther. There were so many idiots buying computers and then asking all the questions at the checkout line as to how to use it. It made me so mad! As well as many others. Took almost an hour just to pay for it. LAME!

[azdude]

I thought the Jaguar party was fun. I waited in line w/ my TiBook for about 4 hours... I was one of the first 5 in!

(I know, I don't have a life. At least I wasn't one who installed it while sitting on a mall couch @ 1:00am).

[lazyrighteye]

No way... I mean, who'd release an operating system on United Nations Day (US)?!? ;)

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by Magicite
The G4 towers and eMacs you speak of did not come preloaded with 10.2 and in fact only had the 10.2 full CDs thrown into the boxes. 10.2 was not preinstalled on these machines until their next revision.

I bought a Power Mac G4 (dual 1 GHz) the day that Panther was released though the retail stores. They had a promotion whereby customers who bought anything in the store that night got a 10% discount, so I spent nearly $4,000 on a new system.

The G4 had 10.2 installed on it, and it had 10.2 CD's in the box. Not the retail CD's with the furry X on them, but the plain grey bundle CD's.

[Yeah, yeah, I'm an idiot. Jaguar, not Panther.]

[Cougarcat]

Originally posted by j33pd0g
October 26 over here... Panther would be a nice b-day present indeed!

That's my birthday as well. :cool:

[sososowhat]

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
I bought a Power Mac G4 (dual 1 GHz) the day that Panther was released

I must have missed something. Time-warp perhaps?

[greenstork]

Not to throw water on the fire but here is what I have heard. I was at the new Apple store in Seattle yesterday. I was asking about whether or not a coupon for Panter would be included if I bought a new G5 because I know it's coming out soon (before end of year). He stated that with Jaguar, they offered specials and coupons to stores about a month before the release of Jaguar to folks buying new computers. He was saying that since Apple has made no such action currently, that he presumes Panther to be at least over a month away. He says that when they say by the end of the year, that they probably mean by the end of the year.

So interpret this as you see fit.

Dave

[pkradd]

Those of you who have bought a G5 or new Powerbook should have an up to date coupon in your package. You'll probably be able to go to an Apple Store for a free upgrade or opt for it via mail for $20. Apple has always offered free or low cost upgrades to recent purchases of new CPUs when the upgrade came wihtin a month or so. You'll know soon enough. :)

P.S. Apple Store employees are notoriously ill-informed about what Apple is going to do. They don't know anything more then you or I.

[coolbreeze]

Originally posted by greenstork
Not to throw water on the fire but here is what I have heard. I was at the new Apple store in Seattle yesterday. I was asking about whether or not a coupon for Panter would be included if I bought a new G5 because I know it's coming out soon (before end of year). He stated that with Jaguar, they offered specials and coupons to stores about a month before the release of Jaguar to folks buying new computers. He was saying that since Apple has made no such action currently, that he presumes Panther to be at least over a month away. He says that when they say by the end of the year, that they probably mean by the end of the year.

So interpret this as you see fit.

Dave
Damnit Dave. You didn't throw water on the fire, you pissed on it and put it out!!:p

BTW, I just called and tried to cancel my 15" Powerbook order, and told the salesman that I wanted to wait for Panther. He put up quite a fight, and ended up knocking $50 off my order. He said they have no idea when Panther will be released, much less pre-loaded on Powerbooks. (yeah, right).

I read into this (him discounting $50) that Panther is longer off than we expect. Like months away. The salesman didn't want to lose me as a customer in the meantime....??

[mnkeybsness]

those who purchased a mac after jaguar was announced were allowed to buy "upgrade" discs from apple for $20. the upgrade discs made life a pain in the butt when you want to reinstall. it took about 20 minutes to install 10.1, then about an hour for 10.2, and finally however long it took for you to download upgrades.

[wrldwzrd89]

I don't think this is true, given previous rumors. By that I mean major and known bugs STILL present in the latest Panther builds. I'm an ADC Online member, so I can't install the test builds, but this is what I've heard.

[Nicky G]

Apple Sales Reps have absolutely no idea as to when new products will be released. TRUST ME. Their opinions are only that. They do NOT have any insider info.

IMO, if you need a laptop, get it -- don't bother waiting for Panther unless you can potentially wait a while to get a new machine.

Apple traditionally runs "Up-to-Date" programs, which allow customers to get new software for a $20 materials/shipping fee, if it was not bundled with a relatively new machine. Obviously Apple has not yet announced whether such a program will be in effect for recent system buyers, and/or who may qualify, if such a program does go into effect at some point. But such programs have been common in the past, and tend to be quite fair IMO.

[CaptainScarlet]

Have any of you used any of the relased Panther builds!?!?!!?

7B80 doesn't seen to have any major bugs in it, at all... Rock Solid...for my uses...

I'm not sure what they are polishing up, but it can't be much...I'll tell you that!!!



CS...out

[bennetsaysargh]

dude. you don't see lines at gateway countries for the newest windows OS:p
this one guy in front or n back of me for the jaguar said that, i never forgot it for some odd reason.

i was at the palisades store, and the line was about to old navy (for those who know the area.)
i had fun there that night, and i would love to go again:)

i started laughing when people started installing it on their iBooks by the theater:p

[ryan]

Originally posted by iHack
What would you want a headless desktop for? Planning on using it as a server? Why would you want to use panther (client)? Just wondering...

Am I being headless here for not getting it or is it just you?

M.
If you don't need some of features of OSX Server then there is no reason NOT to use the client version, it's less expensive and has the same performance.

[iHack]

AppleInsider (http://www.appleinsider.com/news/) just reported that according to their information, Gold Master indeed is to be declared. They are unclear as to what build it is, either 7b85 or 7b86 (?). Their reputation for accuracy has been discussed in an earlier post.

Good news?

M.

[dho]

mommy, I WANT MY PANTHER NOW!

very good news

lets hope it actualy does comes out soon

[Bregalad]

After hearing how many bugs were still in 7B80 I was rather disturbed to hear that a few days later they had a GM. Even if they release 10.3 in October, it'll be a few weeks into November before I'll know whether or not I can trust it.

The 10.2.8 debacle has proven to the non-believers that an operating system is far more complex and has far more machine specific dependencies than almost any application software. I have no doubt that Apple QA is under Steve's personal microscope, that they work hard and honestly don't want to miss anything, but even if they'd tested 10.2.8 for six months they were NEVER going to find a problem with old dual processor machines plugged into 10baseT networks. Those of us in the small company applications QA realm probably would have noticed it right away because we're generally stuck with old computers and while 10/100 might be available in the wall, we've often got an old 10base hub under our desk because our cubes have more computers than network ports. Apple find a Lombard specific bug in late 2003? You've got to be joking. The chances of a 1999 era notebook with a virtually unsupported video chip being included in an Apple test plan are a million to one against.

So the obvious solution appears to be beta testing, but Apple is never going to trust their seeds in the hands of anyone except their selected developers. Are those people still running old equipment? Possibly. The posibility that dozens of people out there are running pre-release builds on old Macs is the only thing saving "the rest of us" from a 10.2.8-like situation every time an update comes out.

[iHack]

Originally posted by ryan
If you don't need some of features of OSX Server then there is no reason NOT to use the client version, it's less expensive and has the same performance.

People who don't like posts that are not really on topic, please skip this one... ;)

If you want to save money and want the same (probably better...) performance, try FreeBSD on the intel/AMD platform. Panther's Darwin is in sync with version 4.8, giving you great interoperability. You don't even have to be much of a geek to install it - well, you do have to edit some text files for apache, samba, netatalk (AFP server), etc, but this is all quite well documented in the files themselves (if-you-want-to-share-the-such-n-such-directory-remove-the-#-in-front-of-the-following-lines style). Takes you a day or two to figure it out, but will leave you with a great, dirt-cheap server. I have a lightning fast, headless PIV 2.4 GHz, 512 MB, 120 GB server up and running for about € 400 (this translates to roughly $400).
Hey, if you want a good and cheap (read: open source) mail server, you'll spend a day or two on that alone, on a Mac. At least I did, until I decided to invest in a BSD system.

M.

[tizza]

Yeah as much as I'd love to get my hands on Panther (yes I've just bought a new PB and am resigned to the fact I'm going to have to fork out more ...), I think I'd rather wait until the thing is pretty bugless - mind you you would hope the final release would be free of all major problems!

[cubist]

Xcode comes with it, right?

Bring it on!!! I'm ready.

[scotts13]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nicky G
[B]Apple Sales Reps have absolutely no idea as to when new products will be released. TRUST ME. Their opinions are only that. They do NOT have any insider info.

Listen to him - I worked under the Apple Education Sales Consultant program for years, but never directly for Apple. Nonetheless, one of my neighbors is an Apple regional manager, and calls ME to find out what's going on in her own company.

They don't know, and it's safer for them that way.

[bennetsaysargh]

nothing can be completely bugless.
panther will obviously have some bugs no matter what, but i think that that's understandable. they'd have to work on it for years to make it bugless.

and there would still be bugs.

[goglamosh]

will apple give away any freebies to those purchasing panther at the apple stores?

[KBFinFan]

Like little stuffed panthers?

..sorry.. couldn't resist

[goglamosh]

yes! stuffed panthers! i will take one.

[Sherman]

I honestly hope that this version isn't GM, because there is still a glaring bug, literally.

If you have a RAGE 128 chipset, it tries to run Quartz Extreme regardless. This chipset cannot do values that aren't a power of two.

Basically, after the boot screen, every single window, object, EVERYTHING is a white box. yay.

Submitted the bug report to apple, but they still haven't fixed it. Better not be GM, or else I won't be able to run it on my precious iBook.

[Roller]

The Babel Fish version of the German Web page begins: "This cat will heat the dogs completely beautifully." Probably lost something in the translation. :)

[bennetsaysargh]

they gave out stickers, mouse pads, and stuff like that at jaguar. i want to woin a stuffed panther!
lol:p

[iHack]

Originally posted by Roller
The Babel Fish version of the German Web page begins: "This cat will heat the dogs completely beautifully." Probably lost something in the translation. :)

This translation made me curious. But I can't find anything like it on www.apple.com/de/macosx/panther...

I would translate the first bit of that text as "Panther is getting ready to jump: before the end of the year will the new version of Apple's beloved operating system conquer the market, a version you shouldn't miss out on."

Well, I'm Dutch, I'm not a native speaker of German, but it is nowhere near heating up dogs. Maybe another page?

M.

[Innagoddadavida]

I'm sure we'll hear from someone who posts here the moment someone receives a machine that has Panther on it--that will be the day when my 15" PB order heads off to Apple...

[mustang_dvs]

As an ADC member, I can't get a newer build than 7B74, which I think is a little silly...

...but I can live with it, considering that I just bought a CTO dual G5, with developer discount, and it will ship "on or before 10/16/03."

Granted, the "privilege" is not cheap. (But the "free" software and the discounts make up for it.)

[u2mr2os2]

Just realize that there will be at some point a 10.3.1, 10.3.2, etc.

I believe the boxed version is always the 10.x.0 release and never updated with point releases? If so, then waiting to buy until a stable point release comes out is pointless. Waiting to install until then is valid.

[gopher]

After 10.2.8 I plan on backing up everything before I update. And repair permissions first before and after.

[DeusOmnis]

I hope apple gets panther out sooner than the 24th... i mean, really. Ive waited long enough. Soon i'm going to just download it and install that way.

[gopher]

Originally posted by DeusOmnis
I hope apple gets panther out sooner than the 24th... i mean, really. Ive waited long enough. Soon i'm going to just download it and install that way.
If it hoses your machine, don't go complaining about the Apple boards how it hosed your machine since it is YOUR fault you are using a downloaded version that has no guarantee it is the actual release version. It is time pirates learned to act responsibly. Backup all data on your hard drive to another so you don't have the pain of recovery if it does hose your machine. And hope the download you have doesn't act upon the firmware, because that would require a motherboard replacement if it did. You never know, Apple could combat piracy that way. Not only that, Apple did make an earlier build which said in the readme that the actual release version of Panther won't install over it. There is no guarantee the download you get will. The final builds may all have the same build number, so you won't be able to tell them apart if you do download it. You'll have to rely on the trustworthyness of the person you download it form.

[Wonder Boy]

I have multiple macs. so having panther which is designated for my new computer would do me little good. I just assume buy it, and be able to put it on all my macs.

That is of course i am wrong about not being able to load software designated for one system onto another.

[BenRoethig]

Personally, I'd like to see Panther released on October 28th. It's the birthday of Bill Gates...and myself.

[azdude]

I just assume buy it, and be able to put it on all my macs.

No. While it will in all likelihood be technically possible (Apple's OSs seem to have no copy protection/keys), that's not how the license is sold. (i.e. it's shady, if not illegal).

Jaguar was released in a 'family pack' for $199 IIRC, which legally allowed you to install it on 5 computers IN THE SAME HOUSEHOLD. Great deal, if you ask me.

Who knows, but I'd be willing to bet Apple does the same thing for Panther.

[ryan]

Originally posted by iHack
People who don't like posts that are not really on topic, please skip this one... ;)

If you want to save money and want the same (probably better...) performance, try FreeBSD on the intel/AMD platform. Panther's Darwin is in sync with version 4.8, giving you great interoperability. You don't even have to be much of a geek to install it - well, you do have to edit some text files for apache, samba, netatalk (AFP server), etc, but this is all quite well documented in the files themselves (if-you-want-to-share-the-such-n-such-directory-remove-the-#-in-front-of-the-following-lines style). Takes you a day or two to figure it out, but will leave you with a great, dirt-cheap server. I have a lightning fast, headless PIV 2.4 GHz, 512 MB, 120 GB server up and running for about € 400 (this translates to roughly $400).
Hey, if you want a good and cheap (read: open source) mail server, you'll spend a day or two on that alone, on a Mac. At least I did, until I decided to invest in a BSD system.

M. All very true. My response to original question was to point out that you don't always need an OS labeled as a "server" to use it as a server, whether it be OSX, Windows, Linux, etc. In my case, I had dual USB iBook with a bad screen that I was able to get JBoss/Tomcat/MySQL setup and running under OSX ("client") in about 10 minutes; plus I have the benefit of having a built-in UPS. :D

[Wonder Boy]

Originally posted by azdude
No. While it will in all likelihood be technically possible (Apple's OSs seem to have no copy protection/keys), that's not how the license is sold. (i.e. it's shady, if not illegal).


ya, but i dont care.

[redcalx]

I'm just running 10.2 on my G4 and like everyone else I'm anxiously awaiting Panther... but don't you think that if apple implemented a feature where the release version of Panther couldnt be installed over a beta version that it would be unfair to beta testers? They're just not allowed to run panther once it's released?

And even still... it would be easy enough to install 10.2 over, and then 10.3 retail...

Sorry, but your story sounds flawed, and if it's not, then apple is stupid.

Originally posted by gopher
If it hoses your machine, don't go complaining about the Apple boards how it hosed your machine since it is YOUR fault you are using a downloaded version that has no guarantee it is the actual release version. It is time pirates learned to act responsibly. Backup all data on your hard drive to another so you don't have the pain of recovery if it does hose your machine. And hope the download you have doesn't act upon the firmware, because that would require a motherboard replacement if it did. You never know, Apple could combat piracy that way. Not only that, Apple did make an earlier build which said in the readme that the actual release version of Panther won't install over it. There is no guarantee the download you get will. The final builds may all have the same build number, so you won't be able to tell them apart if you do download it. You'll have to rely on the trustworthyness of the person you download it form.

[e2chris]

Originally posted by gopher
If it hoses your machine, don't go complaining about the Apple boards how it hosed your machine since it is YOUR fault you are using a downloaded version that has no guarantee it is the actual release version. It is time pirates learned to act responsibly. Backup all data on your hard drive to another so you don't have the pain of recovery if it does hose your machine. And hope the download you have doesn't act upon the firmware, because that would require a motherboard replacement if it did. You never know, Apple could combat piracy that way. Not only that, Apple did make an earlier build which said in the readme that the actual release version of Panther won't install over it. There is no guarantee the download you get will. The final builds may all have the same build number, so you won't be able to tell them apart if you do download it. You'll have to rely on the trustworthyness of the person you download it form.


newbie...

[Matrix9180]

I'm just running 10.2 on my G4 and like everyone else I'm anxiously awaiting Panther... but don't you think that if apple implemented a feature where the release version of Panther couldnt be installed over a beta version that it would be unfair to beta testers? They're just not allowed to run panther once it's released?

And even still... it would be easy enough to install 10.2 over, and then 10.3 retail...

Sorry, but your story sounds flawed, and if it's not, then apple is stupid.


It is true, you won't be able to upgrade from the beta version, but I'm betting you'll be able to do an archive and install...

[SeaFox]

Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
dude. you don't see lines at gateway countries for the newest windows OS:p


Yeah you do. Don't you remember all that news footage of people standing in line to buy WindowsXP? :rolleyes:

Yeah, I know it's been so long since Microsoft released a new OS we've all forgotten.

They were probably all saps who bought computers with ME installed and were desperate to get rid of it.

[e2chris]

I prefer a clean install over upgrading anyday. Backing up osx to another HD is just mad simple. /Users/%username%/ and some /Applications is all ya need. Not hard at all...

Oh and you guys sure you want the first rev of the stuffed panther? Might wanna wait till the second release to make sure the stitching is secure... my god... people expect way to much for $129

[Matrix9180]

They were probably all saps who bought computers with ME installed and were desperate to get rid of it.

Definatly...
It was all ppl with ME installed... and the rest were kids thinking it was a new toy... darned preskool interface...

[redcalx]

Oh... I didnt understand possibly... I could see how you couldnt upgrade (that makes some sense at least)... but it would be rediculous to implement a feature that wouldnt let you completely clear your disk and install a retail version of Panther...

Originally posted by Matrix9180
It is true, you won't be able to upgrade from the beta version, but I'm betting you'll be able to do an archive and install...

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by e2chris
newbie...

Someone's a newbie for disliking pirates? Someone's a newbie because they dislike people who cause companies to implement anti-piracy features and increase their prices?

Apple threatened last fall that they would implement a s/n if the piracy kept up.

[nslyax]

I hope the education price doesn't go up. Jaguar is $69 for students, plus I renewed my .mac and took the $20 coupon for online Apple Store, so thats $49 for Panther! Will probably drive the 2 hours to my Apple Store and order there though, just so I don't miss the party.

[iHack]

Originally posted by Matrix9180
Definatly...
It was all ppl with ME installed... and the rest were kids thinking it was a new toy... darned preskool interface...

After Windows ME came TE: Teletubbies Edition

Actually, I think M$ got the idea from their user base. They seem to say "Uh-oh..." a lot when the're working on it. ;)

M.

[edit: typo]

[tduality]

Originally posted by Roller
The Babel Fish version of the German Web page begins: "This cat will heat the dogs completely beautifully." Probably lost something in the translation. :)

So? What's wrong with that? ;)

Seriously, I guess they meant something like 'Panther will put some fire under their a**es'. If that makes sense in English.

Maybe they should have reffered to 'Longhorns'.

[iHack]

Originally posted by gopher
If it hoses your machine, don't go complaining about the Apple boards how it hosed your machine since it is YOUR fault you are using a downloaded version that has no guarantee it is the actual release version. It is time pirates learned to act responsibly. snip

LOL :D
Responsible pirates. Now, that's funny.

[Matrix9180]

niiice =)
After Windows ME came TE: Teletubbies Edition

Actually, I think M$ got the idea from their user base. They seem to say "Uh-oh..." a lot when the're working on it.

M.

[freddiecable]

I got my Dual G5 yesterday...and it would make me sad to find out that "Panther" ships this month and that I won't get a free upgrade...

...and - what about Panther being G5-optimized?

[Matrix9180]

Panther is definatly G5-optimized... on my G5 1.6GHz system, my panther builds are a LOT faster than 10.2.7 (the version that came preinstalled) I know a lot of this has to do with performance improvements all around, but a lot also has to do with optimizations.

[Esquare]

The German sentence reads:
"Diese Katze wird den Hunden ganz schön einheizen..."

Diese = This
Katze = cat
wird = will
den = the
Hunden = dogs
ganz schön = quite
einheizen = fire up, drive on, give a fright

The Babelfish translation isn't too bad, actually.

:cool:

[MongoTheGeek]

Originally posted by iHack
This translation made me curious. But I can't find anything like it on www.apple.com/de/macosx/panther

I would translate the first bit of that text as "Panther is getting ready to jump: before the end of the year will the new version of Apple's beloved operating system conquer the market, a version you shouldn't miss out on."

Well, I'm Dutch, I'm not a native speaker of German, but it is nowhere near heating up dogs. Maybe another page?


Probably another page. I haven't done German in a decade and not much even then. (at least beyond trying to understand the badguys in movies)

I got the gist of the page, a bunch of gwanna gwanna.

It reminded me of the joke about the translator at the UN though... "The verb man, where's the verb?"

[3-22]

Can't wait, but I really HOPE they offer the upgrade at a discount for recent G5 buyers. We'll see...

Does anyone know if I can walk into the Apple store and buy at student discount prices? (or do I have to use the online Apple store)

[Rincewind42]

Originally posted by u2mr2os2
Just realize that there will be at some point a 10.3.1, 10.3.2, etc.

I believe the boxed version is always the 10.x.0 release and never updated with point releases? If so, then waiting to buy until a stable point release comes out is pointless. Waiting to install until then is valid.

They do eventually sell dot releases in the box, it just depends on how long it takes to filter through the pipeline. I bet if you went looking for Jaguar CDs today they'd be at least 10.2.4, but also wouldn't be surprised if in some places you find 10.2.1 or 10.2.0.

[kugino]

Originally posted by Matrix9180
Panther is definatly G5-optimized... on my G5 1.6GHz system, my panther builds are a LOT faster than 10.2.7 (the version that came preinstalled) I know a lot of this has to do with performance improvements all around, but a lot also has to do with optimizations.

I do believe that Panther is optimized for the G5, but your logic for this isn't too sound. Isn't Panther faster on G3 and G4 processors, too? Is the 10.2.7 to 10.3 speed increase in the G5 greater than the 10.2.6 to 10.3 speed increase in G3 and G4 machines? Does anyone know of any comparison benchmarks that show Panther optimizations for the G5?

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by iHack
Three weeks from an Apple build on some G5 cluster in Cupertino to a neat row of Panther boxes on a shelf in a store near you doesn't sound like a long time to me. Shipping G5's and 12" PB's seems to take a lot of time too. Expect panthers in your local store's storage rooms up to a week in advance of the official release date.
Yes, we are going to hear rumours about mysterious pallets being delivered to stores, with notices not to open them before 10/24...

Does anyone remember how many 'jaguars' were sold in the first week or so?

I'd like a Dutch version. Can't remember if that's included in the same box, or if I'm going to have to wait for a localised version. Any info?

M.
It should be in the same box...

[Toppa G's]

The terms of the $20 Apple store coupon for renewing .Mac state that the coupon cannot be used in addition to educational discounts. Bummer, eh?

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by legacyb4
Argh, I'm needing to pick up a laptop sometime next week from the local store. Guess that means it's more than unlikely that I will have a free update to Panther... :(

Cheers.
It will have coupons that won't necessarily say "Upgrade to Panther".

[QuiteSure]

This is what I don't understand. I want to buy a new PB. I'm going to wait until Panther comes out to buy, thereby saving $129. What if:

I'm sued for all my money?
I get hit by lightning?
I decide that my iBook is really good enough?
I decide to buy a Toshiba?
I run away with an exotic dancer to Tahiti?

Apple will lose out on a $2000 sale because it didn't want to give me an upgrade path to Panther.

*sigh*:confused:

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by 3-22
Can't wait, but I really HOPE they offer the upgrade at a discount for recent G5 buyers. We'll see...

Does anyone know if I can walk into the Apple store and buy at student discount prices? (or do I have to use the online Apple store)

The official Apple stores as far as I know will honor edu pricing. Now for authorized Apple retailers they will not unless they are a campus store. Your final option is like you said to order it online.

[ColoJohnBoy]

Apple retail stores do not provide the educational discount on Mac OS X. I got a talking-to when I discounted Jaguar to $69. The OS is only available at educational prices through your school store or purchaser and online.

[the future]

Originally posted by QuiteSure
This is what I don't understand. I want to buy a new PB. I'm going to wait until Panther comes out to buy, thereby saving $129. What if:

I'm sued for all my money?
I get hit by lightning?
I decide that my iBook is really good enough?
I decide to buy a Toshiba?
I run away with an exotic dancer to Tahiti?

Apple will lose out on a $2000 sale because it didn't want to give me an upgrade path to Panther.

*sigh*:confused:

Well, Apple has to draw the line *somewhere*, don't they? Usually they give people who have purchased their system 30 days before the release of a new OS version a very cheap upgrade option (20 $ for shipping and handling, if I recall correctly). IMO this is very fair.

[QuiteSure]

Originally posted by the future
Well, Apple has to draw the line *somewhere*, don't they? Usually they give people who have purchased their system 30 days before the release of a new OS version a very cheap upgrade option (20 $ for shipping and handling, if I recall correctly). IMO this is very fair.

Of course, you're correct. Apple announced Panther in the spring and hasn't taken any other official position besides "By the end of the year". If I knew that Panther would be shipping on, say, December 15, I'd buy now and bite the bullet. But if Panther ships on October 24th and there is no upgrade path, I've lost out.

I'm not suggesting that Apple doesn't have to draw the line. But why can't they actually commit now to the 30 day upgrade path, so I can make a somewhat more informed choice as to my buying schedule.

[CaptainScarlet]

Originally posted by QuiteSure
I'm not suggesting that Apple doesn't have to draw the line. But why can't they actually commit now to the 30 day upgrade path, so I can make a somewhat more informed choice as to my buying schedule.

They want your money!!

It's simple as that.

And besides for only $129, for full upgrade, the price isn't really that bad...

Were not paying $400 for Xp here...That's expensive.....



CS...out

[Matrix9180]

Okay, jumping back on the primary topic after this latest confirmed report... I have to say I really hope 7B85/6 isn't GM... Why? I think it would be a really bad move considering Apple's last OS release... 10.2.8 was a major screw up, and I don't see how Apple would come away from that and throw in new UI changes, knock out remaining bugs, and declair it final w/o seeding EVERYONE who can currently get seeds (ADC is what I'm referring to if you couldn't guess) to test it... It does NOT make sense to have fewer and fewer people testing as a product nears release, especially not when it's your higher-up level of testers: big name developers such as Adobe, who may ignore some issues they find so that Panther doesn't get delayed, and a new version of x-company's-product can coincide w/ the Panther release. In the build that I am running, 7B74, there were still some outstanding bugs with Safari, and also some issues with slider controls and drop shadows... I HOPE that that these things were fixed already, but I don't see how apple can be really sure w/o having the whole team w/ every configuration testing it...
I know from experience if you have a product, release a beta, get feedback on the problems, then as quickly as possible throw together fixes for all those problems and r elease it as final without further testing, you screw something up... always...
</rant>

[BevvyB]

Originally posted by QuiteSure
What if:


I run away with an exotic dancer to Tahiti?



Sorry, she's taken.

[CaptainScarlet]

Originally posted by Matrix9180
Okay, jumping back on the primary topic after this latest confirmed report... I have to say I really hope 7B85/6 isn't GM... Why? I think it would be a really bad move considering Apple's last OS release... 10.2.8 was a major screw up, and I don't see how Apple would come away from that and throw in new UI changes, knock out remaining bugs, and declair it final w/o seeding EVERYONE who can currently get seeds (ADC is what I'm referring to if you couldn't guess) to test it... It does NOT make sense to have fewer and fewer people testing as a product nears release, especially not when it's your higher-up level of testers: big name developers such as Adobe, who may ignore some issues they find so that Panther doesn't get delayed, and a new version of x-company's-product can coincide w/ the Panther release. In the build that I am running, 7B74, there were still some outstanding bugs with Safari, and also some issues with slider controls and drop shadows... I HOPE that that these things were fixed already, but I don't see how apple can be really sure w/o having the whole team w/ every configuration testing it...
</rant>

Here is a question.....

Why would Apple release (if it's true 7b85 is GM) 7b85 to ADC members???

Wouldn't they lose money on it?!?!?!

Heck if you have the GM version, why would you by it?!?!!?

7b80 seems to be rock solid...There seems to be no major bugs....


And why would Safari stop 7b85 from being GM?!?!!? Safari is not a part of the OS...It's an application....


If another build is released to the "Public", then Panther has some way to go...



CS....out

[Matrix9180]

No they're not losing money... ADC members w/ a PAID SUBSCRIPTION already paid at least $500 for the seeding program.. that is what I was talking about, not the freebie accounts... and they give ADC Select/Premier members access to the final build anyway...

[QuiteSure]

Originally posted by BevvyB
Sorry, she's taken.

Bada Bing?

[Rincewind42]

Originally posted by Matrix9180
Okay, jumping back on the primary topic after this latest confirmed report... I have to say I really hope 7B85/6 isn't GM... Why? I think it would be a really bad move considering Apple's last OS release... 10.2.8 was a major screw up, and I don't see how Apple would come away from that and throw in new UI changes, knock out remaining bugs, and declair it final w/o seeding EVERYONE who can currently get seeds (ADC is what I'm referring to if you couldn't guess) to test it... It does NOT make sense to have fewer and fewer people testing as a product nears release, especially not when it's your higher-up level of testers: big name developers such as Adobe, who may ignore some issues they find so that Panther doesn't get delayed, and a new version of x-company's-product can coincide w/ the Panther release. In the build that I am running, 7B74, there were still some outstanding bugs with Safari, and also some issues with slider controls and drop shadows... I HOPE that that these things were fixed already, but I don't see how apple can be really sure w/o having the whole team w/ every configuration testing it...
I know from experience if you have a product, release a beta, get feedback on the problems, then as quickly as possible throw together fixes for all those problems and r elease it as final without further testing, you screw something up... always...

Agreeing with what you said, I fear that we haven't received any more builds due to the leaked builds. If anything however, hopefully this will prove that it was neither ADC nor AppleSeed that has been leaking builds.

[nslyax]

Originally posted by ColoJohnBoy
Apple retail stores do not provide the educational discount on Mac OS X. I got a talking-to when I discounted Jaguar to $69. The OS is only available at educational prices through your school store or purchaser and online.

That stinks. As does the "no $20 .mac coupon on edu purchases" mentioned earlier. Still, buying online for $69 is better than paying full $129. And maybe Apple will be nice and give .mac subscribers a discount (yeah, right).

Don't know why they wouldn't offer OS X edu discount in stores though, I bought my ibook at the Apple Store in Troy, MI last November with edu discount no problem. Why discount hardware and not software?

[encro]

Originally posted by CaptainScarlet

And why would Safari stop 7b85 from being GM?!?!!? Safari is not a part of the OS...It's an application....


I think the comment was more in reference to the WebKit framework which is an integral part of panther in much the same way as IE on XP.

Webkit is used by Help Viewer, Mail.app and Safari not to mention 3rd party apps such as Net News Wire Pro and OmniWeb.

[bennetsaysargh]

Originally posted by BenRoethig
Personally, I'd like to see Panther released on October 28th. It's the birthday of Bill Gates...and myself.

lol. now we have another reason to make it the 24th!

[bankshot]

Originally posted by nslyax
Don't know why they wouldn't offer OS X edu discount in stores though, I bought my ibook at the Apple Store in Troy, MI last November with edu discount no problem. Why discount hardware and not software?

Don't know exactly why this is the policy, but it's always been that you can only get edu discount on hardware in stores, not software. Perhaps it's just that software is generally much cheaper (or has much higher percentage discounts) so they don't want you going around to different stores buying more than your allotted share of discounted software and selling it to your friends. Since hardware is much more expensive and has less of a discount, it's less to worry about. Any time we've used my wife's edu discount at the store, they weren't very strict about checking it, whereas when you order online, they can track how much you've gotten.

Also it occurs to me that the software discounts are often so deep that the prices are probably less than what resellers pay. So they want to stop people from becoming their own illegal resellers and undercutting everyone else. Hardware is probably still more than resellers pay even with the edu discount.

Just a random stab in the dark. :cool:

[iHack]

Originally posted by CaptainScarlet
They want your money!!

It's simple as that.

And besides for only $129, for full upgrade, the price isn't really that bad...

Were not paying $400 for Xp here...That's expensive.....



CS...out

Hmmm. Windows gets a major you-pay-for-it upgrade every 3-4 years or so. NT 4.0 was around '95, win2k was around '99, XP about a year ago (or something like that, I can't be bothered to look it up) .
Apple seems to be on a schedule of just over a year (jag-panther about 14 months).
So if you want to stay up-to-date, you'll have to pay for three apples, where you pay for one window. 3x 129,- = 400,- (almost).

Where's the difference in that?

M.

PS. The difference, of course, is that you can choose to only upgrade your OSX if and when you want to, to save money. And you most probably would be able to use it on your old mac. By the time a new windows version comes out you're forced to get it, because the old version is so buggy and outdated. And you'll have to buy a new PC too, as system requirements go up about as fast as intel can innovate.

[simX]

Originally posted by CaptainScarlet
They want your money!!

It's simple as that.

And besides for only $129, for full upgrade, the price isn't really that bad...

Were not paying $400 for Xp here...That's expensive.....



CS...out

I've never understood people who use this argument as a bonus for the Mac platform.

Microsoft charges $199 for the Home version of Windows XP, and $299 for the Professional version of Windows XP. But this operating system was released in 2001, and there won't be a paid update until (supposedly) 2005.

In that time frame, we've had Mac OS X 10.0 ($129), Mac OS X 10.1 (free upgrade), Jaguar ($129), Panther coming soon ($129). And we're only in October 2003. By the time Windows Longhorn is supposed to come out (October 2005), we'll most likely be up to Mac OS X 10.5, since Apple seems to be keeping up a schedule of a major upgrade every year (the period between major releases is slowly getting longer):

Mac OS X 10.0 -- March 2001
Mac OS X 10.1 -- October 2001
Jaguar -- August 2002
Panther -- supposedly October 2003

10.0 to 10.1 -- 7 months
10.1 to Jaguar -- 10 months
Jaguar to Panther -- 14 months

So, assuming that we have two major releases of Mac OS X by the time Longhorn comes out, that means we'll have paid $645 for operating system software. That's a far cry from the $299 of Windows XP Professional. Note that this is excluding any potential upgrade/educational discounts that you can get from either Apple or Microsoft.

All things taken into account, Apple charges more than twice as much for the most up-to-date system software in the same time period.

Please note that this is not to be construed as a complaint. The $138 that I've spent so far on Mac OS X (educational discount) has been well-spent and well-justified, and I would have paid the full $258 if I wasn't a student. The $645 that you will spend for all major releases of Mac OS X up to version 10.5 will no doubt give you so many more useful and innovative features in the operating system than Microsoft could ever hope to include.

Just please don't make the same mistake that people do when they buy a PC purely for monetary reasons -- they only consider up-front costs, and not total cost of ownership. If you consider TOC, the cost of a Mac is much, much cheaper. But a Mac isn't cheaper if you just consider a portion of the cost, whether it is up-front costs or operating system costs.

originally posted by iHack
PS. The difference, of course, is that you can choose to only upgrade your OSX if and when you want to, to save money. And you most probably would be able to use it on your old mac. By the time a new windows version comes out you're forced to get it, because the old version is so buggy and outdated. And you'll have to buy a new PC too, as system requirements go up about as fast as intel can innovate.

I agree with the latter point, but not the former. While indeed you can choose not to upgrade Mac OS X to the latest version, and your computer will continue to work as it did before, you are limiting yourself to software that still supports the older operating system. Mac developers, especially small independent developers, tend to create software that uses the latest and greatest technologies, and therefore will require the latest upgrade to Mac OS X. Apple will probably even update the iLife applications so they will do the same. Contrast this with Windows, where you can be guaranteed that most software will continue to work on your operating system for a few years, because Microsoft doesn't release paid upgrades for a few years.

So, all things taken into account, a regular user would want to upgrade to use the latest and greatest software, even if it's free from Apple. That necessitates a paid upgrade to the latest version of the operating system.

[iHack]

Originally posted by bankshot
snip.

Hardware is probably still more than resellers pay even with the edu discount.

Just a random stab in the dark. :cool:

Actually, it is not, at least not to small EU resellers. I have no info on North American ones. One Dutch reseller (or actually former reseller) started a petition after Apple changed its pricing policy per October last year. Their complaints are here (http://www.chipmunk.nl/rotstreek.html) (in Dutch, unfortunately).
Their margin at msrp would be around 5% which happens to be equal to the edu discount I can get online. And they are supposed to provide support to their customers for that... These guys feel they are supposed to work for free.
The larger, better equipped resellers who operate out a a classy Apple store qualify for higher discounts. In effect, Apple seems to be pestering the smaller 'corner shop' mac+pc resellers off the market to end up with only classy Apple Stores (none of which are Apple owned/operated over here). Not the most friendly marketing strategy imaginable, i'd say.

[CaptainScarlet]

Originally posted by iHack
Hmmm. Windows gets a major you-pay-for-it upgrade every 3-4 years or so. NT 4.0 was around '95, win2k was around '99, XP about a year ago (or something like that, I can't be bothered to look it up) .
Apple seems to be on a schedule of just over a year (jag-panther about 14 months).
So if you want to stay up-to-date, you'll have to pay for three apples, where you pay for one window. 3x 129,- = 400,- (almost).

Where's the difference in that?

M.


You all make good points....


But you seem to be missing 3 other Windows there...ME and of course 98, also 98/SE...NT wasn't really for home use...

95 = $145 (??)
98 =$209.00 Full $109.00 Upgrade
98SE=$209.01 Full $19.99 Upgrade from 98
ME=$209.00 Full $109.00 Upgrade
2000=$319 Full $219 Upgrade
XP(Per)=$299 Full $199 Upgrade
Longhorn= $299 $199 Upgrade (guess)

http://www.theosfiles.com/index.htm


That would come to $ 655.99 cost for upgrade only....Of couse you good take out the price for 95..Since it wasn't much!! And/or, you could include NT....



Now the 3 apples at $387 doesn't seem so bad....Since OS X is the OS were talking about here and not Mac OS 9 or older...

I'm not worried about the money...Since every 3 years I upgrade my computer to something faster...Just like my cars.....

Originally posted by iHack

PS. The difference, of course, is that you can choose to only upgrade your OSX if and when you want to, to save money. And you most probably would be able to use it on your old mac. By the time a new windows version comes out you're forced to get it, because the old version is so buggy and outdated. And you'll have to buy a new PC too, as system requirements go up about as fast as intel can innovate.

Agreed................



The upgrades to OS X have been a blessing!!! With each OS release major improments have been made over the older one. I for one, will upgrade to Panther....

Originally posted by simX
I've never understood people who use this argument as a bonus for the Mac platform.

Microsoft charges $199 for the Home version of Windows XP, and $299 for the Professional version of Windows XP. But this operating system was released in 2001, and there won't be a paid update until (supposedly) 2005.

In that time frame, we've had Mac OS X 10.0 ($129), Mac OS X 10.1 (free upgrade), Jaguar ($129), Panther coming soon ($129). And we're only in October 2003. By the time Windows Longhorn is supposed to come out (October 2005), we'll most likely be up to Mac OS X 10.5, since Apple seems to be keeping up a schedule of a major upgrade every year (the period between major releases is slowly getting longer):

Mac OS X 10.0 -- March 2001
Mac OS X 10.1 -- October 2001
Jaguar -- August 2002
Panther -- supposedly October 2003

10.0 to 10.1 -- 7 months
10.1 to Jaguar -- 10 months
Jaguar to Panther -- 14 months[/B]


True, but Mac is far the better between the 2...And that's what your paying for...a better OS....Just like the Hardware....


Sorry guys, I just like spending money on the good sh**......

[simX]

Originally posted by CaptainScarlet
You all make good points....


But you seem to be missing 3 other Windows there...ME and of course 98, also 98/SE...NT wasn't really for home use...

Um... yeah. If you include all the Windows OSes starting from Windows 95, then you have to include the price of all the Mac OSes since System 7. That would be $99 for 7, 7.5?, 8, 8.5, and 9, minus $30 for the upgrade from 8 to 8.5. So that would be at least an additional $369. Which means the total for Mac OSes would come to $1014, if you exclude 7.5 -- I don't know if you could get a free upgrade to 7.5 or not.

I was only computing the cost since Windows XP and Mac OS X came out. So my total cost analysis was valid.

95 = $145 (??)
98 =$209.00 Full $109.00 Upgrade
98SE=$209.01 Full $19.99 Upgrade from 98
ME=$209.00 Full $109.00 Upgrade
2000=$319 Full $219 Upgrade
XP(Per)=$299 Full $199 Upgrade
Longhorn= $299 $199 Upgrade (guess)

http://www.theosfiles.com/index.htm


That would come to $ 655.99 cost for upgrade only....Of couse you good take out the price for 95..Since it wasn't much!! And/or, you could include NT....



Now the 3 apples at $387 doesn't seem so bad....Since OS X is the OS were talking about here and not Mac OS 9 or older...

First of all, you include Windows Longhorn, so you have to include Mac OS X 10.4 and 10.5 as well as Panther, because Longhorn isn't coming out until at least October 2005. So that means that we're not talking about $387 of Mac OS X, we're talking $645 of Mac OS X (like I said in my previous post). And that still doesn't include the Classic Mac OS systems, which, as I pointed out earlier, you have to include in the price if you include Windows back to 95.

Note that Apple has never provided very good upgrades for their operating system. I'm not sure about 7 to 7.5, but I don't recall Apple giving a discount for 7.5 to 8 or 8.5 to 9. The only upgrade I remember getting was 8 to 8.5, which was a measly $30 discount. I could be wrong here, though.

If you calculate the cost of buying all the Windows OSes, assuming your prices are right, you get this:

Windows 95 = $145
Windows 98 Upgrade = $109.00
Windows 98SE Upgrade = $19.99
Windows ME = $209.00
Windows XP Upgrade = $199
Longhorn = $299

Total = $980.99

Here I'm assuming that you can't upgrade an upgrade, except in the case of 98SE. I'm not sure if this is the case or not, but if it is, then it will only make the total price of Windows cheaper.

Also, Windows 2000 and Windows NT were NOT consumer OSes. Windows ME was. So you can't include Windows 2000 or NT in the total cost.

So Apple still charges more for it's operating system in the long run. However, given that Mac OS X is on a roll to get a major upgrade every year, and that it is more expensive than the Classic Mac OS, the cost of upgrading Mac OS X into the future will be even more expensive than it was in the Classic Mac OS days.

The upgrades to OS X have been a blessing!!! With each OS release major improments have been made over the older one. I for one, will upgrade to Panther....




True, but Mac is far the better between the 2...And that's what your paying for...a better OS....Just like the Hardware....


Sorry guys, I just like spending money on the good sh**......

Like I said, I completely agree with you. The cost of Mac OS X is well worth it, even if it is more expensive than Windows in the long run.

But I was just pointing out that it IS more expensive in the long run. So don't go around touting that as an advantage of being on the Mac platform.

[yujini]

simX Thank you.
At last someone objective about the MS OS price vs Mac OS.

Let's try to be objective.

[paradygm0001]

Another cost for Windows users is the time (and therfore money) lost/paid for the constant viruses and system crashes, my rommate who was running Win ME had that computer serviced 11 times at $45.00 an hour, his current box from Dell running Win XP which he has had now for nine months has been serviced 6 times, plus there was the four worms that slipped by his virus protection software which ate up his email address book, but not before he emailed his mother infecting her; he had also forwarded the tainted email to me and of coarse I was immune. That's all money we don't shell out regularily like Window Users.

[DGFan]

Originally posted by simX
So Apple still charges more for it's operating system in the long run. However, given that Mac OS X is on a roll to get a major upgrade every year, and that it is more expensive than the Classic Mac OS, the cost of upgrading Mac OS X into the future will be even more expensive than it was in the Classic Mac OS days.

Like I said, I completely agree with you. The cost of Mac OS X is well worth it, even if it is more expensive than Windows in the long run.

But I was just pointing out that it IS more expensive in the long run. So don't go around touting that as an advantage of being on the Mac platform.

It is only more expensive if you purchase every version of OS X. If someone is happy using XP for 3 years with no upgrade what makes you think they won't stick with 10.1 or Jaguar for 3 years with no upgrade?

Sure, OS X might cost more in the long run if you buy every version, but you are getting new features sooner than on windows where new versions are 3 years apart. But you also will have the option of sticking to one new version of OS X every 2-3 years and spending less.

[Fadl]

Are student developers going to get a copy of Panther for free? Like the way they receive monthly developer tools?

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by paradygm0001
Another cost for Windows users is the time (and therfore money) lost/paid for the constant viruses and system crashes, my rommate who was running Win ME had that computer serviced 11 times at $45.00 an hour, his current box from Dell running Win XP which he has had now for nine months has been serviced 6 times, plus there was the four worms that slipped by his virus protection software which ate up his email address book, but not before he emailed his mother infecting her; he had also forwarded the tainted email to me and of coarse I was immune. That's all money we don't shell out regularily like Window Users.

The difference between Mac and Windows users is Mac users have only had to upgrade there system once in since system 7 to be compatible with a new system. Can you say that for Windows 3.1 on?

[iHack]

Originally posted by DGFan
It is only more expensive if you purchase every version of OS X. If someone is happy using XP for 3 years with no upgrade what makes you think they won't stick with 10.1 or Jaguar for 3 years with no upgrade?


This point was made here before. Have you checked how many apps require 10.2.6? Actually quite many. so if you want to upgrade your apps, you do need to upgrade regularly...
Many windows programs require a 32 bit operating system, and more often than not they will run on win95. Win98 typically is not a problem at all (at least not anymore than with software of the same age).

M .

[bennetsaysargh]

i think apple's timing comes perfectly every year. without the constant updates to add new features, XP will be around untill 2005. we're already 4 versions of OS X. i can't imagine being stuck with 10.0.4 or 10.1.5 for a few years, unless if its a speed issue.

[nacl99]

I'm running 7b85, no noticeable differences from 7b80...

This is final huh? anyone know what was recently fixed? etc?

[pianojoe]

Originally posted by DGFan
It is only more expensive if you purchase every version of OS X. If someone is happy using XP for 3 years with no upgrade what makes you think they won't stick with 10.1 or Jaguar for 3 years with no upgrade?


Don't hit me, but OS X is still incomplete. What makes many people sad is they feel they have been paying $129 to qualify as beta testers for 10.0-10.1.

Jaguar is, finally, a basic functional OS, and 10.3 even more. I want all OS 9 functionality (and some of the speed) back in the OS X finder. Systemwide audio and midi (outside of Logic) is still a land where fairies live. Support for older peripherals would be nice.
Alternative OS themes for people with not-so up-to-date hardware would be nice.

We won't get that one though. Why buy a new machine if the old one does fine? MS is often blamed for making their OS releases so demanding (resourcewise) that people tend to buy new machines. The same holds true for Apple. Non-USB G3s are out of the game with Panther.

[QuiteSure]

Originally posted by pianojoe
Don't hit me, but OS X is still incomplete. What makes many people sad is they feel they have been paying $129 to qualify as beta testers for 10.0-10.1.

Jaguar is, finally, a basic functional OS, and 10.3 even more. I want all OS 9 functionality (and some of the speed) back in the OS X finder. Systemwide audio and midi (outside of Logic) is still a land where fairies live. Support for older peripherals would be nice.
Alternative OS themes for people with not-so up-to-date hardware would be nice.

We won't get that one though. Why buy a new machine if the old one does fine? MS is often blamed for making their OS releases so demanding (resourcewise) that people tend to buy new machines. The same holds true for Apple. Non-USB G3s are out of the game with Panther.

I think it's ok to move forward with an OS in order to innovate. While I agree that an OS should support older periipherals, Apple should not have to cripple its OS to make it compatible with computers which were discontinued in 1997.

[gopher]

Originally posted by pianojoe
Don't hit me, but OS X is still incomplete. What makes many people sad is they feel they have been paying $129 to qualify as beta testers for 10.0-10.1.

Jaguar is, finally, a basic functional OS, and 10.3 even more. I want all OS 9 functionality (and some of the speed) back in the OS X finder. Systemwide audio and midi (outside of Logic) is still a land where fairies live. Support for older peripherals would be nice.
Alternative OS themes for people with not-so up-to-date hardware would be nice.

We won't get that one though. Why buy a new machine if the old one does fine? MS is often blamed for making their OS releases so demanding (resourcewise) that people tend to buy new machines. The same holds true for Apple. Non-USB G3s are out of the game with Panther.

10.0 to 10.1 were the first releases of Apple's new operating system. As such a lot of peripheral support and software support had yet been made. With 10.2 a lot of that changed. Twain came in Image Capture, CUPS printing allowed open source printer drivers to be used, and Adobe, and Microsoft's applications finally became more functional. There are still people who complain about Illustrator's speed on 10.2 though, and that probably is due to the fact it was hobbled by being coded for both 9 and X. Once applications are developed strictly for X they run quite smoothly. Smaller applications though don't have problems with running both in 9 and X. 10.2.8 is already improved in overall performance over 10.2.0. So Apple has made the gradual progress of developing a new, relatively open source unix based operating system while trying hard to maintain hardware and software compatibility with the old. Some things just had to get dropped by the wayside like support for older peripherals that work on pre-1998 machines.

[MacAztec]

Hehe....

[gopher]

Originally posted by MacAztec
Hehe....
Nice. I can't wait to get my hands on it, but I'd rather Apple fix any remaining bugs first.

[thesaint]

I hate to rain on your parade, but 7B85 isn't the GM. It is however, a Final Canidate build. This doesn't make me happy to even post this, but I believe it's true. Reason for thinking this?

#1. 7B85 is a bit buggy. Networking comes and goes and gets really bogged down and some of the OS's apps crash. #2. Weird icons showing up when connecting to servers via secure afp.
#3. Noone at Apple who would like to keep their job would post this dev build.
#4. Anyone here see XCODE yet? If this were te GM could we not assume that XCODE should be along with the "leeks?"

Again, I do believe that Apple is close to releasing the GM and that we will be seeing it very soon. I just have a hard time believe that 7B85 is the GM.

Please help prove me wrong. I want Panther as much as the rest of you all. :-)

[ZildjianKX]

I'm running 7B85 now, and it seems pretty final to me. Its not a HUGE leap forward, but its a definate improvement. Almost all the features it added I feel should have been included in the first place, but a very fast and solid OS none-the-less.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by thesaint
I hate to rain on your parade, but 7B85 isn't the GM. It is however, a Final Canidate build. This doesn't make me happy to even post this, but I believe it's true. Reason for thinking this?

#1. 7B85 is a bit buggy. Networking comes and goes and gets really bogged down and some of the OS's apps crash. #2. Weird icons showing up when connecting to servers via secure afp.
#3. Noone at Apple who would like to keep their job would post this dev build.
#4. Anyone here see XCODE yet? If this were te GM could we not assume that XCODE should be along with the "leeks?"

Again, I do believe that Apple is close to releasing the GM and that we will be seeing it very soon. I just have a hard time believe that 7B85 is the GM.

Please help prove me wrong. I want Panther as much as the rest of you all. :-)

I tend to agree. I've heard whispers about build beyond 7B85. 7B90 was mentioned but wasn't confirmed.

[superfula]

Originally posted by thesaint
I hate to rain on your parade, but 7B85 isn't the GM. It is however, a Final Canidate build. This doesn't make me happy to even post this, but I believe it's true. Reason for thinking this?

#1. 7B85 is a bit buggy. Networking comes and goes and gets really bogged down and some of the OS's apps crash. #2. Weird icons showing up when connecting to servers via secure afp.
#3. Noone at Apple who would like to keep their job would post this dev build.
#4. Anyone here see XCODE yet? If this were te GM could we not assume that XCODE should be along with the "leeks?"

Again, I do believe that Apple is close to releasing the GM and that we will be seeing it very soon. I just have a hard time believe that 7B85 is the GM.

Please help prove me wrong. I want Panther as much as the rest of you all. :-)

*sigh* Build 7B85 IS GM.

#1 Show me a version of OS X that wasn't buggy. Hell, show me ANY piece of software that is without bugs
#2 same as #1
#3 Again, this makes no sense
#4 So the leakers chose not to leak xcode along with the OS. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist

With the relative quickness that 85 was leaked, and the fact that Apple has moved on to 7C builds, there probably won't (read WILL NOT) be any more B builds, since 85 is GM. The 7C builds are 10.3.x releases.

[thesaint]

I really tried to be civilized in my comments, but numb-nuts like you are why I never post to boards.

#1. It was a leak build. Please tell me, oh great one, why do you have this current build? I bet you aren't an ADC member and from what I gather you aren't an Apple employee.
#2. Even if apple stops the seeding before GM, they don't stop mailings or email don't you think as an ADC member I would know what's up regardless if we get the builds or not?
#3. The reason it makes perfect sense to stop builds to track down the leak who is getting it out to MANY non-deserving people. Simple as that.
#4. 99% of ADC members like myself, we like to see progress period. Most legit adc members dont really care if its gm or not.

[superfula]

Originally posted by thesaint
I really tried to be civilized in my comments, but numb-nuts like you are why I never post to boards.

#1. It was a leak build. Please tell me, oh great one, why do you have this current build? I bet you aren't an ADC member and from what I gather you aren't an Apple employee.
#2. Even if apple stops the seeding before GM, they don't stop mailings or email don't you think as an ADC member I would know what's up regardless if we get the builds or not?
#3. The reason it makes perfect sense to stop builds to track down the leak who is getting it out to MANY non-deserving people. Simple as that.
#4. 99% of ADC members like myself, we like to see progress period. Most legit adc members dont really care if its gm or not.

I don't know why you chose to flame me. My post was nothing like that. It really has nothing to do with the conversation, and does nothing to prove your point.

I've noticed arn edited your post, so I'm wondering if those were his comments.

[???]

I just can't seem to understand how the people on this forum make a claim about this particular "leaked build" being gm. That is directly interpreted as pirated OS which in fact is. Regardless that information is strictly for non-disclosure as stated by apple. Upon agreeing when signing up for "ADC" (Apple Developer's Connection) that the information provided to you by Apple Computer Inc is under non-disclosure.
This is truely sad to see so many people with such claims posted here. As being a "Paid ADC Member" I don't even have any build after 7b74. The reason for this is because there is a mole/leak. There is a freeze on development builds for "paid ADC members" because there has been so many leaked/pirated builds.
This sickens me to see such childish rants on a website such as this "Macrumors" You'd be suprised how much "real" ADC members know over the general public. Especially in Asia ... Thank you!.

Thanks for expressing your absolute misconception of fabricated facts.

- The Lokster

The mighty 'ol' ???

[thesaint]

Couldn't have said it any better lokster. You really touched on my point. Thanks.

[???]

It has to be done. I like to read Intelligent forums. When things go bad. There has to be someone to mop up and flush ...:eek:

- Lokster

[superfula]

Originally posted by ???
I just can't seem to understand how the people on this forum make a claim about this particular "leaked build" being gm. That is directly interpreted as pirated OS which in fact is. Regardless that information is strictly for non-disclosure as stated by apple. Upon agreeing when signing up for "ADC" (Apple Developer's Connection) that the information provided to you by Apple Computer Inc is under non-disclosure.
This is truely sad to see so many people with such claims posted here. As being a "Paid ADC Member" I don't even have any build after 7b74. The reason for this is because there is a mole/leak. There is a freeze on development builds for "paid ADC members" because there has been so many leaked/pirated builds.
This sickens me to see such childish rants on a website such as this "Macrumors" You'd be suprised how much "real" ADC members know over the general public. Especially in Asia ... Thank you!.

Thanks for expressing your absolute misconception of fabricated facts.

- The Lokster

The mighty 'ol' ???

Whether or not you guys think 7b85 is the gm build changes nothing. Trying to justify your arguements doesn't help either. There is no reason why 7b85 won't be GM. It being an internal build and not on ADC has nothing to do with that. I really doubt leaked builds has anything to do with why Apple hasn't seeded you anything lately. Especially since the internal-only build of 85 was leaked.

FYI...ADC members aren't privy to any more info than the average joe.

[???]

I don't think you quite understand the correct terminology of "NON-DISCLOSURE" regardless of issue at hand my post was simply describing the general public exactly about what you are saying. Notice i don't quote you? there's no need .. you justify yourself in the manner of speaking. Notice the subject of this thread? ... perhaps not.
Maybe next time ask scotty to beam you up.

-Lokster:D

[superfula]

Originally posted by ???
I don't think you quite understand the correct terminology of "NON-DISCLOSURE" regardless of issue at hand my post was simply describing the general public exactly about what you are saying. Notice i don't quote you? there's no need .. you justify yourself in the manner of speaking. Notice the subject of this thread? ... perhaps not.
Maybe next time ask scotty to beam you up.

-Lokster:D

Since no one here is under the NDA, there's no reason for you to post your explanation, which most are aware of. If it were an ADC build, ADC members would be under NDA. But it was an internal build, so only those who are privy to this build are under the NDA.

Now if you could keep on topic here, that would be appreciated.

[bile]

some people just aren't bright. this kids probably arguing in favor of it being GM so he can brag to all his buddies that hes using the golden master of panther or to assure any additional people he has leaked it to that it is the GM so he doesn't have to go through whatever hassle he probably had to go through to get another copy... do you realize you are the ONLY one fighting in favor of it being a GM at this point (well on this board anyways) you think there is a reason for that?.. i dont really care how you reply to this because your responses don't even remotely try to back up any of your completely asinine claims.

[???]

Subject says all. I rest my case .. seems there's someone higher than me. Wait, is that legal?

[timbloom]

You all have no proof either way if it is GM or not. This is all just speculation. Nobody here does, heck, Apple might not yet know. There is no reason for people to even argue about it because it is of no importance.

Once somebody has a retail box, installs it and checks the number we will know what build GM is. Until then, you should all just sit back and relax.

[superfula]

Originally posted by bile
some people just aren't bright. this kids probably arguing in favor of it being GM so he can brag to all his buddies that hes using the golden master of panther or to assure any additional people he has leaked it to that it is the GM so he doesn't have to go through whatever hassle he probably had to go through to get another copy... do you realize you are the ONLY one fighting in favor of it being a GM at this point (well on this board anyways) you think there is a reason for that?.. i dont really care how you reply to this because your responses don't even remotely try to back up any of your completely asinine claims.

There's a reason why I rarely post on this forum, and this is exactly the reason why.

Like I said, I'm not under NDA, so what does that mean to you? I've never downloaded it, never used it, never told anyone where to get it. Fact remains, there are people more privy to certain in fo than you guys.

My posts have backed up my claim perfectly. The people who have shared the info with me have proven themselves to be accurate in this area. Go flame somewhere else.

[???]

Originally posted by superfula
There's a reason why I rarely post on this forum, and this is exactly the reason why.



Is this a statistic statement to buff up your status as a member of macrumors?. [........EDITED SPAM......] (yes, that was a request)

I still see you posting .. that isn't really "rarely" now is it? or even educational or even funny?
:rolleyes:

Don't worry I forgive you.:D

[Rower_CPU]

Kids, let's play nice or this thread is off to the wasteland.

[thesaint]

ok kids... this has gone beyond rediculous. We stated nothing, but facts and somehow get labled as "flamers."

I think this link sums it all up nicely.

http://www.funnyjunk.com/pages/burger/html

[arn]

I can't even follow what people are even arguing about at this point.

- 85 is either GM or it isn't. But the GM claim is presumably not just someone specualting. It's from someone or someones who are theoretically in the know. That's what makes this macrumors.com and not macWouldntItbeNiceIf.com

arn

[Rower_CPU]

??? watch the spam.

[???]

ok i give .. i got carried away there .. my bad.. must be the veggies..
it's all good. I'll be good. Meow.

[superfula]

Originally posted by thesaint
ok kids... this has gone beyond rediculous. We stated nothing, but facts and somehow get labled as "flamers."

I think this link sums it all up nicely.

http://www.funnyjunk.com/pages/burger/html

I have yet to see any facts from you.

I really tried to be civilized in my comments, but numb-nuts like you are why I never post to boards.

some people just aren't bright. this kids probably arguing in favor of it being GM so he can brag to all his buddies that hes using the golden master of panther or to assure any additional people he has leaked it to that it is the GM so he doesn't have to go through whatever hassle he probably had to go through to get another copy... do you realize you are the ONLY one fighting in favor of it being a GM at this point (well on this board anyways) you think there is a reason for that?.. i dont really care how you reply to this because your responses don't even remotely try to back up any of your completely asinine claims.

Yeah....those facts sure do back up your point :rolleyes:

Sheesh. I have no reason to come here and post what I think will be GM. The only reason that I did post, was because thesaint said 7b85 WAS NOT Gm, which isn't true. I have nothing to gain by sharing this info with people. If you put the pieces together, it's not to tough to figure out

[bile]

better watch out for superfula! dont let any of his stupid rub off on you, i had a feeling that disease was contagious. You have nothing to gain by showing info to people?.. who ever said or even implied in any way shape or form that you had any information to share "if you put the pieces together" great job on providing pieces you utter waste of space. I doubt there is anything you could tell anyone here that they probably didnt learn months ago. Now why would i waste my time presenting anything as facts when you have done nothing but extend vague claims to debunk any theories by the other members of the board. ie "#3 Again, this makes no sense" Yeh that is a REAL solid way to attack the premise and setup a counter argument, very intutitive. You have proved nothing but how horrible you are at presenting/validating any type of an argument, i would walk you through the process of presenting and validating one if i thought you had the brainpower to fathom it. In the end of course you have nothing to gain because you know nothing, now deal with it.

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by bile
better watch out for superfula! dont let any of his stupid rub off on you, i had a feeling that disease was contagious. You have nothing to gain by showing info to people?.. who ever said or even implied in any way shape or form that you had any information to share "if you put the pieces together" great job on providing pieces you utter waste of space. I doubt there is anything you could tell anyone here that they probably didnt learn months ago. Now why would i waste my time presenting anything as facts when you have done nothing but extend vague claims to debunk any theories by the other members of the board. ie "#3 Again, this makes no sense" Yeh that is a REAL solid way to attack the premise and setup a counter argument, very intutitive. You have proved nothing but how horrible you are at presenting/validating any type of an argument, i would walk you through the process of presenting and validating one if i thought you had the brainpower to fathom it. In the end of course you have nothing to gain because you know nothing, now deal with it.

Was that really necessary? Whether I think superfula is right or wrong is irrelevant. And you know what? I don't know and don't care. But apart from his first post (a tad condescending, but even then it wasn't so bad) in response to the saint, superfula has stayed rather reasonable in his posts. You might disagree with him. OK. But I don't really understand why all of a sudden we have 3 guys almost appearing out of nowhere (read you, the saint, and especially ???) being really agressive on that subject. What is wrong with you ?

[???]

I'm a bit confused what is with all this ??? business i am ??? refer to that from now on. It would probably be better.
I don't see where I was aggressive, but ok if you insist. The only thing i mentioned was about non-disclosure which indeed relevant to the cross-posting at the time of writing. I would say it's a bit late now.
The forum originally was to answer the question "is Panther 10.3 build XXXX (edited for reasons) GM?" well TheSaint originally answered and then a load of people started insisting that it's GM when the build you all are referring to is indeed a leak and considered pirated. No matter how the thread ended up .. it was all blown out of proportion based on one single answer which came to an extreme debate. To end this all right here. You all will be verified the true answer when people get the actual boxed retail and get the info on the build number for verification. Until then every argument is irrelevant at this point regardless who thinks right or wrong. One thing i do think is wrong is seeing people with that leaked build which is so unsupportive to apple and all the developers as well seeders. I am a "Paid ADC member" and there is no such build in our direction and mainly because the general public leaks builds either by a bad apple or a thief. Whichever way this just prolongs development and encouragement. It's really sad people must pirate from Apple when they are actually fair. Yes this sets the relevancy toward the point of discussion here in the thread. Apple will notify the entire world what is GM either it hits ADC members first or public .. whichever comes first. I think people realistically should just give up on guessing. Time to move on with life people and pay for your softwares at least pay for access to ADC for legitimate copies to do precise reporting of an os before making a fool out of one self on the internet.

-Piracy is a crime-

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by ???
You all will be verified the true answer when people get the actual boxed retail and get the info on the build number for verification. Until then every argument is irrelevant at this point regardless who thinks right or wrong.
Agreed. 100%.

One thing i do think is wrong is seeing people with that leaked build which is so unsupportive to apple and all the developers as well seeders. I am a "Paid ADC member" and there is no such build in our direction and mainly because the general public leaks builds either by a bad apple or a thief.
Fair enough. You're understandably pissed off. And that's a much better way to say it (sorry I don't mean to be patronizing...).

[NicoMan]

Apple Store is now closed. It seems like it's for Panther's official announcement: apparently some users saw on the swiss Apple Store the news when it was going down. Note the apparently. Credit to MacBidouille (http://www.macbidouille.com) .

[eric67]

Originally posted by NicoMan
Apple Store is now closed. It seems like it's for Panther's official announcement: apparently some users saw on the swiss Apple Store the news when it was going down. Note the apparently. Credit to MacBidouille (http://www.macbidouille.com) .

you are definitely to fast for me

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by eric67
you are definitely to fast for me
Je m'ennuie au bureau... (=I'm bored at work).

[???]

Originally posted by NicoMan
Agreed. 100%.


Fair enough. You're understandably pissed off. And that's a much better way to say it (sorry I don't mean to be patronizing...).

Thanks for realizing. I was only pissed off based on the frustration of needless misconception of communication. I think the thread originally gotten blown out of proportion based on ego from everyone. Macrumors.com should be for educational information not a debate forum sadly, that only creates more frustration for those who actually either acquired the knowledge or has the knowledge to share. All due respects to all the moderators who deal with user posts daily. It's a big enough and time consuming task even when they are not being paid for it.

Note of wisdom: share the wealth of knowledge among your peers. Enjoy rumors as a guide of understanding judgment.

[???]

Originally when i signed up I used my Chinese name. It seems that this forum does not understand the characters. Is there a way for the moderators or the website to add support for asian characters to be displayed?. This is why i appear to be ??? . :cool:

[Rower_CPU]

Looks like we'll find out on 10/24...

Can we all get along 'til then? ;)

??? - if you talk to arn about changing your name he can probably help. I'm not sure if adding asian character support to the VB software is possible or not.

[edit - Use the private message or email system to discuss with him. Do not post in this thread.]

[???]

Rumor has it that it's true 7b85 is not the gm stated by ADC paid members as it was posted as "prerelease".

[superfula]

*sigh*

ALL ADC Mac OS X seeds are identified as pre-release when it goes up on ADC. This is Apple's seeding policy. Every other GM releases that have been put up on ADC have ALWAYS been labeled pre-release. It's only labeled there in the seed notes. It does not mean that 7B85 isn't GM

[thesaint]

"According to reports, Apple has begun to distribute Mac OS X 10.3 Panther to its Apple Developer connection members. Earlier today, the company made build 7B85 available to 'Premier' developers, shedding any doubts that the build may not have been the true Gold Master."


:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :D

[bennetsaysargh]

doesn't that mean that there is a better build that is the GM? ;)
or it could be another build before it.