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MacRumors
Sep 25, 2001, 12:19 PM
User NO B&W writes in to tell us (and sadden us in so doing) that Steve Jobs'
technical wonderboy and sidekick Avie Tevanian (http://www.apple.com/pr/bios/tevanian.html)
is leaving Apple. Principle designer and engineer of the Mach operating system upon which
Mac OS X is based, Tevanian began his connection to Jobs at NeXT back in 1988. Let us hope
that his departure does not harbinge a period of lesser innovation by Apple. Check out the
NY Post article here (http://www.nypost.com/technology/4841.htm).

Let's Have Some Aphex Aci
Sep 25, 2001, 12:26 PM
isn't it a bit hasty to say "leaves" when the article in question says the guy MAY be leaving?

Synk
Sep 25, 2001, 12:35 PM
Its a real shame to see a good man leave.

blakespot
Sep 25, 2001, 01:30 PM
An incredibly robust kernel, Mach. A thing of beauty.


http://www.blakespot.com/oldmac/images/anim.gif




blakespot

No One In Particular
Sep 25, 2001, 01:58 PM
I want to use a Mac for its OS as well as its hardware integration and simplicity.

I don't want to use a hodge podge of NeXT/Windoze/Linux in a package loosely referred to as a "Mac" OS.

You know they were about ready to kill off AppleScript COMPLETELY before someone interceded from the original Mac camp?

Now look at it, its all fancied up with network communication protocols and XML parsing. Apple is even going to offer a RAD tool to builld real apps using AppleScript as the "programming" language.

If he jumps or was pushed who cares, lets get someone in the top spot who knows "Macintosh" and can guide Mac OS X into maturity as a Mac OS and not a bridge for Windoze/UNIX geeks who want to use the Macintosh hardware.

Anonymous Coward
Sep 25, 2001, 04:48 PM
Umm...do we trust a NY Post gossip columnist for this sort of info? Not exactly the first place I'd look for reliable buzz on the computer industry.

Argent
Sep 25, 2001, 04:54 PM
I agree, the article doesn't clearly state that Avie is leaving Apple. It seems to be quite speculatory...

At any rate, IMO, the NY Post is something of a sensationalist rag and the term "newspaper" should only be applied to it loosely.

Brent Turbo
Sep 25, 2001, 05:00 PM
Maybe they'll get someone in there who knows how to make a computer that's fast AND affordable. And maybe someone who will benchmark a Mac against a PC using something other than Photoshop.

gandalf55
Sep 25, 2001, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Brent Turbo
Maybe they'll get someone in there who knows how to make a computer that's fast AND affordable. And maybe someone who will benchmark a Mac against a PC using something other than Photoshop.

I think the affordability comes from market share. Winblows owns that, so of course they have more manufacturers. Winblows does the license dance too which promotes more boxes running their crud OS. Apple's processors are plenty fast and getting faster. Slapping a 2Ghz on an Intel isn't going to make it a faster processor than a top of the line G4 processor. It simply doesn't work that way. Benchmark all you want. Use whatever you'd like. The choice is always yours to make. I just feel for the millions of PC users using a PC for nothing but game, email, surf, and being jammed into the latest version of Word. Mac people love to do more with their machines, because they can do so much. And the Mac somehow contains a soul. And it shows through in so many little ways as to make it a joy to work with.

I would always gladly pay a bit more to get a quality box hosting a great & usable OS. It's the Kia vs. Mercedes thing I suppose. As long as I can save up a few more dollars, I would rather Apple have it than a XP purveyor. Just my opinion.

snowman
Sep 26, 2001, 12:12 AM
Now look at it, its all fancied up with network communication protocols and XML parsing. Apple is even going to offer a RAD tool to builld real apps using AppleScript as the "programming" language.

I think that they should "Cocoanize" Hypercard instead and make it a native color version at the same time. Hypertalk is much easier to script in than AppleScript. And make an OpenGL XCMD for it at the same time.

NO B&W
Sep 26, 2001, 12:21 AM
Well I don't know if losing Avie is a good or bad thing, or true even. But it looked like a big story and it had been a week since the last story was upped. I like this site and wanted to stir it up a bit... The comments are mostly informative...

Peace through superior firepower ;)

Paolo
Sep 26, 2001, 01:53 AM
Steve Jobs is the key man to apple. If you see an article saying he's leaving then you should be worried. But Tevanian while he is a valuable asset to Apple. I"m sure steve jobs will be able to continue running the show without him!

blakespot
Sep 26, 2001, 05:36 AM
If it weren't for the "NeXTites" then Apple would be through. As I've said time and again, even a beta copy of Windows 95 I was running 6 month before the official release is significantly more advanced than MacOS 9.2, as far as what makes a modern operating system (GUI aside). MacOS 9.2 has more in commong with Windows 3.1 from a kernel perspective than anything else.

Apple needed a modern OS. They did well to go the NeXT route instead of proprietary BeOS. NeXT is built on Unix, and that's a proven standard. On top of it all you get NeXT's award winning dev environment for FREE, which has been evolved for 13 years now.

I don't see the possibility for a sound argument that pre-OS X Apple OS technology was anything but ancient and weak (from a kernel perspective, GUI aside).



blakespot

snowman
Sep 26, 2001, 06:00 AM
Originally posted by blakespot
I don't see the possibility for a sound argument that pre-OS X Apple OS technology was anything but ancient and weak (from a kernel perspective, GUI aside).
blakespot [/B]

Eh, not back in -84, then it was state of the art :)

Pants
Sep 26, 2001, 07:05 AM
Am I the only one that thinks Seybold has been completely underwhelming, and with no Paris Expo to look forward to January seems a long way off.....

Avie leaving ......... Irrespective of recession excuses I d like an excuse toget out my wallet - and NOT for a 15 quid 'free' upgrade. :(

snowman
Sep 26, 2001, 07:17 AM
Underwhelming? Steve the man himself will appear on stage, I think that's pretty neat, no new hard thingies though, only soft presents.

Originally posted by Pants
Am I the only one that thinks Seybold has been completely underwhelming, and with no Paris Expo to look forward to January seems a long way off.....

Avie leaving ......... Irrespective of recession excuses I d like an excuse toget out my wallet - and NOT for a 15 quid 'free' upgrade. :(

michaellakota
Sep 26, 2001, 11:30 AM
NY Post?...dubious source- I read it yesterday and I also noted that it said "might"...

Bull
Sep 26, 2001, 01:09 PM
gandalf55,

Kia vs. Mercedes?

Since when a computer with two Ultra SCSI 160 18G 15000RPM HDDs, two 1.2Ghz CPUs, 1Gig DDR memory, 3Dlabs GVX1 Pro graphics board, and ultra cool solid aluminium tower case became a Kia, when compared to a machine with two 800mhz, 256megs of SDRAM (does Apple use PC-133 yet?), an ATA drive, and a game graphic card? You call it a Mercedes, because it costs 400 bucks more? Oh, because of the "Super Drive," maybe?

When was the last time you used a PC from a decent manufacturer (something other than Compaq, Gateway, HP etc.)?

>I just feel for the millions of PC users using a PC for >nothing but game, email, surf, and being jammed into the >latest version of Word. Mac people love to do more with >their machines, because they can do so much.

Could you please post a list of what Mac Users can do while PC counterparts cannot?

>And the Mac somehow contains a soul. And it shows through >in so many little ways as to make it a joy to work with.

Find a lover, instead of finding a "soul" from your computer.

Peace,

A Mac Lover/ user forced to use a PC also

serpicolugnut
Sep 26, 2001, 02:32 PM
According to Mac OS Rumors, this rumor is entirely false.

macrumors.com should change the title of the the report to "Avie RUMORED to be leaving Apple". There has been no word from Avie or Apple, and until there is, it's just not true.

john123
Sep 26, 2001, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by serpicolugnut
According to Mac OS Rumors, this rumor is entirely false.

macrumors.com should change the title of the the report to "Avie RUMORED to be leaving Apple". There has been no word from Avie or Apple, and until there is, it's just not true.

I have about as much faith in MOSR right now as I do in the notion that a big fat man in a red costume will land on my roof this December and bring me a Ferrari.

These days, I almost read MOSR to figure out what *isn't* going to happen....if they predict something, chances are it'll be the other way around.

blakespot
Sep 26, 2001, 05:56 PM
Eh, not back in -84, then it was state of the art 



Snowman, true. But the problem is that the OS, from a kernel perspective, has not evolved far from its state in 1984. It is amazing that this kernel was ridden for so long.



blakespot

snowman
Sep 27, 2001, 12:16 AM
I have nothing against PeeCees, if only one could use them with all those pathetic hard to use dumb ****** OS's. I've used PeeCees, but I've never done anything more advanced than browse the net or use Word and ******. I don't care about those specs. as long as I cannot use them. I have a friend with a PeeCee, and the can't get many games and stuff to work, error after error after error...

Originally posted by Bull
gandalf55,
Kia vs. Mercedes?
Since when a computer with two Ultra SCSI 160 18G 15000RPM HDDs, two 1.2Ghz CPUs, 1Gig DDR memory, 3Dlabs GVX1 Pro graphics board, and ultra cool solid aluminium tower case became a Kia, when compared to a machine with two 800mhz, 256megs of SDRAM (does Apple use PC-133 yet?), an ATA drive, and a game graphic card? You call it a Mercedes, because it costs 400 bucks more? Oh, because of the "Super Drive," maybe?
When was the last time you used a PC from a decent manufacturer (something other than Compaq, Gateway, HP etc.)?
>I just feel for the millions of PC users using a PC for >nothing but game, email, surf, and being jammed into the >latest version of Word. Mac people love to do more with >their machines, because they can do so much.
Could you please post a list of what Mac Users can do while PC counterparts cannot?
A Mac Lover/ user forced to use a PC also

jode
Sep 27, 2001, 07:55 AM
This is nonsense. Avie leaves Apple EVERY DAY. How else can he go home? The man has a life, you know. Sure, he's left Apple, but so has Steve Jobs. Granted, most OSX developers never leave Apple, but they may get to go home soon.

I wonder if Gil Amelio will ever play for the Chicago Bulls?

ezotyrik
Sep 27, 2001, 02:40 PM
I agree with the previous poster that Seybold was quite dull. Is that why they added a Mercedes Benz display?

Last year I was excited by the new products featuring XML workflows and other inventive features. This year the most excitement I got was discovering that you could get an OSX 10.1 upgrade CD free from the Apple display. No "Think Different" posters tho.

Anyway, I suspect the terrorists were partly to blame. It had to be more difficult to get people and presenters to show up given the airline issues.

-Brian

DaveGee
Sep 27, 2001, 06:57 PM
I'm sorry but *IF* Avie is leaving... From what I've been hearing it will not be as bad as some might think.... Avie might have been a really good coder in his day but if you think he had done a lick of coding in the last few years you're in for quite a let down...

Remember, just because you can write good code doesn't mean you can run a development team.

D

Ghost
Sep 27, 2001, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by DaveGee
I'm sorry but *IF* Avie is leaving... From what I've been hearing it will not be as bad as some might think.... Avie might have been a really good coder in his day but if you think he had done a lick of coding in the last few years you're in for quite a let down...

Remember, just because you can write good code doesn't mean you can run a development team.

D

I don't ever remember anyone highlighting Avie's coding. They have always given him credit for smart kernel design and running productive development teams! Unlike past attempts by Apple to advance their OS.

Ghost

funkydude
Sep 28, 2001, 11:04 AM
Avie has not left Apple nor is he intending to, you need to verify your info, and you need to pull this, it is blatantly incorrect.



funkydude

Anonymous Person
Sep 28, 2001, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by blakespot
Apple needed a modern OS. They did well to go the NeXT route instead of proprietary BeOS. NeXT is built on Unix, and that's a proven standard. On top of it all you get NeXT's award winning dev environment for FREE, which has been evolved for 13 years now.

I don't see the possibility for a sound argument that pre-OS X Apple OS technology was anything but ancient and weak (from a kernel perspective, GUI aside).

You don't know what you're talking about. You're just regurgitating what's in Apple's marketing materials.

It's Mach, not UNIX, that gives Mac OS X its two key "modern" features (preemtive multitasking and memory protection). Mach is just a kernel. An OS can be Mach-based without being UNIX. The only thing UNIX gives you is a bunch of command-line tools like sed, awk, and grep. Definitely not necessary.

And Mach is hardly the world's greatest kernel, either. It's big and slow. Even free kernels written by amatuers in their spare time can outperform it. Just look at how much of a speedup LinuxPPC is over MkLinux. Apple would have done better to go with just about any other kernel for Mac OS X, particularly Apple's own NuKernel, but Avie is just a wee bit biased in favor of Mach, so we're stuck with it.

You can see hints of just how good a next-generation Mac OS might have been. Take another look at Mac OS 9. How do you think iTunes can play in the background without skipping in OS 9? Because Mac OS 9 has support for preemptive threads, that's why. How does it do this? It turns out that every Mac OS since 8.6 is actually running as a single task under a slimmed-down version of NuKernel, called the Nanokernel (http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn2028.html#MacOS9Threading). Mac OS 9 is already part-way there. The right way to fix the Mac OS's problems would have been to replace the Nanokernel with the full NuKernel, then allow newly-written apps to run as protected tasks under it, while retaining the MacOS-as-a-single-task scheme for older apps. It would have been very similar to the Carbon/Classic approach in Mac OS X, but without the horrendous slowness that comes from using Mach, and the bloat that comes from UNIX.

The only reason Apple never achieved that on their own was due to poor management. Apple needed a leader (Steve). It didn't need Mach or UNIX. If Apple had been able to gain Steve Jobs as CEO without getting the rest of NeXT along with him, that would have been perfect. Unfortunately, that's not what happened.

And as far as NeXT's development environment goes ... Sure, it was revolutionary when it was first introduced, but far from being "evolved" since then, it has remained stagnant. The rest of the world caught up and passed it by years ago. Want drag and drop editing of your application's GUI, with an object oriented backend? Use PowerPlant. It's old hat these days. NeXT's ProjectBuilder also lacks a lot of ease of use features that have long since become standard in other IDEs. And it uses gcc to compile, rather than Apple's excellent MrC (http://developer.apple.com/tools/mpw-tools/compilers/benchmarks/index.html), so any programs written with it perform rather poorly.

The previous poster was correct to criticize the NeXTites. They have brought very little of value to the Mac, and have introduced a lot of unnecessary difficulties for Mac users & developers.

groupeone
Sep 29, 2001, 01:08 PM
Simply put, the NY Post is wrong. Again. MacOS Rumors reports that inside contacts at Apple have thrown water on the rumors. Okay folks, go home. There's nothing to look at here.

Anonymous Wimp
Sep 30, 2001, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Bull
[B]gandalf55,

Since when a computer with two Ultra SCSI 160 18G 15000RPM HDDs, two 1.2Ghz CPUs, 1Gig DDR memory, 3Dlabs GVX1 Pro graphics board, and ultra cool solid aluminium tower case became a Kia, when compared to a machine with two 800mhz, 256megs of SDRAM (does Apple use PC-133 yet?), an ATA drive, and a game graphic card? You call it a Mercedes, because it costs 400 bucks more? Oh, because of the "Super Drive," maybe?


What manufacturer makes that machine?
You give us the specs, but no make or model...

NJ
Sep 30, 2001, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Anonymous Person

You can see hints of just how good a next-generation Mac OS might have been. Take another look at Mac OS 9. How do you think iTunes can play in the background without skipping in OS 9? Because Mac OS 9 has support for preemptive threads, that's why. How does it do this? It turns out that every Mac OS since 8.6 is actually running as a single task under a slimmed-down version of NuKernel, called the Nanokernel (http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn2028.html#MacOS9Threading). Mac OS 9 is already part-way there.

MacOS 9 supports preemptive _threading_ via MP tasks. MP tasks are not easy to understand and not all developers are keen to implement them into their existing apps, most of the time they gain very little by doing so.

Even if all developers used MP tasks for all of their programs the benefits wouldn't show. The nanokernel simply isn't up to par....iTunes still stutters on slow machines.

blakespot
Oct 1, 2001, 06:27 AM
Yes, I think Anonymous Person has oversimplified the issue here, and given OS 8.6/9 far too much credit. Look at the features (or lack there of) of the kernel as a whole. It's VM system is an optional addition--enough said.

Mach handles most core kernel operations, but there are some "kernel operations" handled by BSD as well--it's more of a hybrid than BSD cleanly sitting exactly on top of Mach. In my OS studies in college, Mach was cited as a textbook example (literally) used to illustrate an ideal kernel structure.

I disagree with your criticisms of OS X and its dev environment.



blakespot

Bull
Oct 1, 2001, 11:42 AM
Anonymous Wimp,

There are many who make such workstations at similar prices. Checkout the workstations at http://www.monarchcomputer.com for one.

Originally posted by Anonymous Wimp
What manufacturer makes that machine?
You give us the specs, but no make or model...