Why Windows users don't like to switch

[stoid]

On the Windows operating system, if you try to go any deeper that exactly the functions that come at you with a full frontal head on assault of obviousness, you will get headache after headache. Windows user simply accept this as a fact of life that their OS is poorly designed. My friend who is as into windows as I am to the mac said when I asked why everything was so difficult on a windows machine, "*shrug* That's just the way it is." I almost cried because if an exteremly experience windows user can't use pro-features and instead has given up hope, that's bad for a switcher. On the Apple operating system, every single function down to the smallest most obscure parts are totally accessible and user friendly. If a switcher has already given up on the ease of pro features of an OS, they may find the utter simplicity of the Macintosh operating system to be confining. It is only when they realize that "everything just works" on a mac that they will enjoying their switcher experience.

[TheWitePony]

I experience this almost everyday. I have been a PC user most of my life, but have recently switched with my purchase of a Tibook over the summer. Not even a couple years ago I used to be one of those people. You know the, "Apple sucks, PC's rule" type. But I am currently working towards my major's in Computer and Electrical Engineering, and I have developed a FAR deeper understanding of what a computer is and what it needs to be. And guess what folks, it doesn't have to involve Windows!

I must say, my switch has been flawless, except for one thing. You get the baggage. You are a "Mac" user now. Every time I bring my Tibook over to my girlfriend's house to get some work done her dad rolls his eyes laughs at me. He cracks jokes about my computer, when he hasn't touched a Mac in over a decade. He thinks he's some kind of computer God cause he can reinstall Windows, wooohoo good for you, I taught myself how to do that when I was 12.

I think the major problem here is that most Window's/ PC users are completely misinformed about Macs that exist today. When someone says "Mac" they think of the ones they used in elementary and high school. They have neither seen nor even heard of OSX. And that was my major reason for my switch, the OS. Oh yeah, they also think about compatibility. They remember that Windows, and MacOS formatted their floppy disks differently and people hate not being compatible. But today with OSX I have no problem with sharing files with my PC and my friends.

The problem is, people don't know the facts. And its like my psychology professor said, "What's scary is not what people know, it's what they think they know". Uhh...I feel better now. I needed to vent that for a while now.

[LimeLite]

When I talk to Windows users, it never ceases to amaze me how often I hear, "Macs are for stupid people. Their OS is too easy to use." Trying to understand that logic makes my brain hurt.

I want my OS to just work, and I want it to work easily and intuitively, and that makes *me* stupid?

Meanwhile, it's very intelligent to shell out money for an OS that's not "too easy to use", not so stable due to the necessity to support legacy hardware, and whose company is being sued for all of the security holes...:rolleyes:

[stoid]

WitePony, you're point about no one knows what Mac OS X is and where Macintosh currently stands is incredibly pertinant. My college prides itself on teaching the latest information about the computer word, and the materials we use for class still talk about OS 8 and 9 like they are rather new.

LieLite, I have to talk to my RA, but I think that's why he is disgusted that I got a 15inch AluBook, he might think I'm stupid.

I guess that Mac users must understand that the Windows platform truly is a gaming platform on all levels. Even the OS is a game, a challenge. If the OS is too easy and does not fight even bit of onward progress you try to make, a Windows user feels like they are not getting the full OS experience. Since the Mac platform aidsproductivity, they are confused by the simplicity and become bored looking for ways to spend the time they save by useing a stable and producity OS. I personally found myself over burdened using the campus computing system to try and get all my work done. Then I recieved my AluBook, and I have had so much free time I hardly know what to do with myself.

[Mav451]

It is no suprise that even now, Mac heads stereotype and blanket statement all the typical "wintel users" as blundering idiots
Nonetheless, i will present a dilemma for you to munch on.

My roommate, here @ Univeristy of Maryland is a hardcore (anti - AMD) pro INTEL chip user. However, he is also a CS major, and loves his new 15" Al PBook (oh and new Ipod) to death. If more popular games were on the Mac, he said he would consider not even USING his current 3.0p4 system...alas that is probably the only thing holding him back.

I run my specialized registry entries, DCOMbobulator, and my 2 CD's of patches, drivers, and applications, and i can easily clean install XP Corporate Integrated SP1 in under 1.5 hours, tweaked and ready to go.

That's what knowing your system is.

I have for once never given up on computer problems. The Via kt133's however...(4 year old original AMD thunderbird chipset) left much to be desired.

"The OS is a challenge"- is that so? I've installed XP Corporate for 3 of my friends, done it under 2 hours, and none of them have had problems for the past 9 months (and this is my VERY first time building computers). Of course, all are based on Nforce2.

Little do most Mac heads realize that "restart", BSOD, and other common lockup problems are linked with HARDWARE (bad memory sticks, hot case temps, weak psu, etc.), and not software.

I have found ways to also gain back memory on my PC (which has been left running for over 3 weeks straight). By closing every single program process, and then explorer (which is about 16 processes) i can go from a 400-500mb page file bak to 70mb of a clean reboot.

I don't even have to reboot to gain bak leaked memory--and that is awesome.

[VIREBEL661]

I've also experienced this firsthand. People asking 'where's the exe files'... Crap like that - it's really frustrating... i know this one girl who had to put like every icon on her desktop like a windoze machine - kept asking stupid questions about the 'c drive' and '.bat' files. What's really funny is windoze is sooo hacked together.. It's like an OS of workarounds to be compatible with DOS, etc (because DOS can't handle very much).. All these extra files and things to 'trick' the os into using modern memory, drives etc... Of course there isn't a real DOS in modern windoze, but they still hold on to all these dos conventions (c drive, etc)...

[Peyote]

Originally posted by Mav451
It is no suprise that even now, Mac heads stereotype and blanket statement all the typical "wintel users" as blundering idiots
Nonetheless, i will present a dilemma for you to munch on.

My roommate, here @ Univeristy of Maryland is a hardcore (anti - AMD) pro INTEL chip user. However, he is also a CS major, and loves his new 15" Al PBook (oh and new Ipod) to death. If more popular games were on the Mac, he said he would consider not even USING his current 3.0p4 system...alas that is probably the only thing holding him back.

I run my specialized registry entries, DCOMbobulator, and my 2 CD's of patches, drivers, and applications, and i can easily clean install XP Corporate Integrated SP1 in under 1.5 hours, tweaked and ready to go.

That's what knowing your system is.

I have for once never given up on computer problems. The Via kt133's however...(4 year old original AMD thunderbird chipset) left much to be desired.

"The OS is a challenge"- is that so? I've installed XP Corporate for 3 of my friends, done it under 2 hours, and none of them have had problems for the past 9 months (and this is my VERY first time building computers). Of course, all are based on Nforce2.

Little do most Mac heads realize that "restart", BSOD, and other common lockup problems are linked with HARDWARE (bad memory sticks, hot case temps, weak psu, etc.), and not software.

I have found ways to also gain back memory on my PC (which has been left running for over 3 weeks straight). By closing every single program process, and then explorer (which is about 16 processes) i can go from a 400-500mb page file bak to 70mb of a clean reboot.

I don't even have to reboot to gain bak leaked memory--and that is awesome.



You want a cookie or something?

[VIREBEL661]

Originally posted by Mav451
It is no suprise that even now, Mac heads stereotype and blanket statement all the typical "wintel users" as blundering idiots
Nonetheless, i will present a dilemma for you to munch on.

WHOA! Man, you're like on the wrong site.. Hey - this is for fans of Macs and stuff... Maybe if you type 'winblows xp corporate blah blah' into a search engine you could find an appropriate forum... Win XP is j u n k BTW (just my opinion, and I'm rather educated, but forgive me nonetheless)... I dunno, I always have to fix win boxes for people who have no clue (hardware and otherwise)... It would make my life easier if they used Mac's, that's for sure... Actually, Mac users tend to be VERY computer literate, FYI. I can administer a windoze network, as well as Linux, BSD, OpenVMS, etc... But I LOVE the Mac, it's the best! What can I say but 'fire away!'

[stoid]

Originally posted by Peyote
You want a cookie or something?

No offense Mav, I understand the complexity of the task you completed, but I just about died laughing at Peyote's question!!! I mean, sure you can become a Windows expert and that's great, but to brag about it just proves our point. Any ol' person can do a fresh install and tweak of Mac OS X, but it takes a genius to comprehend how to do anythnig but Office, Explorer, and games on a windows system.

[VIREBEL661]

Originally posted by Peyote
You want a cookie or something?

LOL! Great comeback...:D

[5300cs]

Here is definitely NOT the place to be bragging about how fast you can install windows, I'm quite confident that almost no one gives a rodents rear end about that.

Also the fact that you have specialized registry entries and 2 CDs of patches and whatnot should tell you something about your os. Toss in a Jaguar CD and with about 6-7 clicks you can sit back and have the installer do the rest. Having to install 'tweaks', 'patches' and 'drivers' is the challenge and it doesn't make you a man or anything. :p

And I like being a 'Mac head'.

[VegetaPunk]

Little do most Mac heads realize that "restart", BSOD, and other common lockup problems are linked with HARDWARE (bad memory sticks, hot case temps, weak psu, etc.), and not software.

LOL!!!! ok so your saying most pc users do? This is the way I see it, most COMPUTER users... yada yada yada. if your "into" computers you will know this whether your a mac user or a pc user. yes more PC users know this then Mac users but thats only because there are more PC users.

[iTag]

I just started a computer solutions compny my first problem was windozzz based how do you put Mac OSX ON IT.!!!!

lol lol

As for windows users dont like to switch i switched over 5 months ago to a wait for it a g3 400 i mac i will admit i use both pc and Mac Mac for work PC For games because the g3 is a bit slow on the graphics but it still plays WC3 cant complain at that.

Bad cases etc heat memory sticks dont seem to know much about those problems with Macs ..

Ive got 4 people who are wanting Macs now just from looking at Mac osx and the g3 never mind the g4 or g5s ...

Mac osx and WINDOWZ XP are both relaible os's no dobut about it. Just the computers are diffrent in the pc world

now that ive just made no sense ,,...

[irmongoose]

iTag: If you're using OS X, please enable the automatic spell check by ctrl-clicking on the text field. This is a forum, not a chatting board.

And if you do have it enabled, don't ignore it. It's there to help others make sense of what you write.



irmongoose

[notjustjay]

OK guys, let me give you my input on the matter... having just "switched" (added, really) when my new 12" PB came in on Thursday.

My shakedown experience reinforces the opinion I had previously, which is this: What the Mac is designed to let you do, it does very easily, and stylishly. But if it doesn't work, it can be a real pain to get it going.

I was of the opinion (from my Maccie friends, and from you guys) that this would be a dead-simple transition, basically take it out of the box and I'm good to go. Well.... to that end, I logged all of the problems I had trying to set up my machine (which really is lovely, btw!)

First: things that are dead-simple and easier than Windows:
- plugging in USB devices, digital cameras, card readers... they just work.
- it's the slickest, nicest Unix desktop I've ever seen.
- iDVD makes DVD presentations that BLOW ME AWAY by how incredibly slick and professional they look.
- Keynote is going to be the most fun I've ever had preparing presentations.
- Support for my Sony CLIE was plug-and-play, once I purchased Missing Sync, and I look forward to having everything synced between my CLIE, my iPod, my Mac, etc.
-Stickies are the best tool ever!

Now, here are the problems I had.
-I plugged in my iPod (which I had previously been using with my Windows box, with XPlay). iTunes offered to synchronize everything, to which end it DELETED ALL MY SONGS without warning me. Very nice. (I know, I know, I should have turned off auto-sync...)
-I had a real devil of a time trying to connect to my LAN, something which everyone tells me is supposed to "just work". And it does, the problem was at the switch and not at the Mac. But the lack of LAN lights, packet count windows, etc. made it difficult to diagnose. Had the PB had a LAN light, I would have known what the problem was right away. As it is I had to run around between floors trying to see if the switch saw the connection.
-Likewise, connecting to my wireless LAN was much more difficult than I thought it would be. I won't bore you with the details but again I followed the steps I'm supposed to take, but simply got nowhere. I eventually got it working, but I had to turn off all wireless security. I'll re-enable WEP later and hope it gets going.
-I'm experiencing peculiar annoying hangs (the spinning beach ball) in various applications, for reasons I can't find.. rebooting makes it go away.
-the Mac does not keep dual contrast settings on its LCD (low brightness when on battery, max brightness when plugged into AC) like my Dell machines do.

The complexity in Windows lies in the multitude of ways to get anything done: the menu method, the right-click method, the Wizard method, the Control Panel method, the command-line method, .... The Mac simplifies that by generally trying to give us a one-step interface. The problem is that if for some reason that one-step doesn't work, there's no (obvious) recourse. That's mostly what I struggled with, I kept my Windows mentality of "Hmm, ok, that didn't work, how else might I try to do the same thing?"

Looking good though. The Powerbook hasn't "blown me away" but I am quite impressed so far.

[hvfsl]

Talk to people on PC forums like www.futuremark.com, they say the main problem with Macs (and why they will not switch) is that they are too expensive compared to PCs. The second problem is games, but since games only acount for about 20% of the PC market, it is not so important (unless Apple wants to mainly target homes and not businesses).

A lot of them would love to get a Mac if it was cheaper. Apple needs to make something like this if they really want PC users to switch:

2Ghz (single) G5, ATI Radeon 9800pro, 60GB Hard Disk, 512MB RAM 17in CRT monitor - £900 (around $1400)

This computer would be comparible in terms of speed to similar offerings by Dell and others.

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by Mav451
It is no suprise that even now, Mac heads stereotype and blanket statement all the typical "wintel users" as blundering idiots
Nonetheless, i will present a dilemma for you to munch on.

My roommate, here @ Univeristy of Maryland is a hardcore (anti - AMD) pro INTEL chip user. However, he is also a CS major, and loves his new 15" Al PBook (oh and new Ipod) to death. If more popular games were on the Mac, he said he would consider not even USING his current 3.0p4 system...alas that is probably the only thing holding him back.

I run my specialized registry entries, DCOMbobulator, and my 2 CD's of patches, drivers, and applications, and i can easily clean install XP Corporate Integrated SP1 in under 1.5 hours, tweaked and ready to go.

That's what knowing your system is.

I have for once never given up on computer problems. The Via kt133's however...(4 year old original AMD thunderbird chipset) left much to be desired.

"The OS is a challenge"- is that so? I've installed XP Corporate for 3 of my friends, done it under 2 hours, and none of them have had problems for the past 9 months (and this is my VERY first time building computers). Of course, all are based on Nforce2.

Little do most Mac heads realize that "restart", BSOD, and other common lockup problems are linked with HARDWARE (bad memory sticks, hot case temps, weak psu, etc.), and not software.

I have found ways to also gain back memory on my PC (which has been left running for over 3 weeks straight). By closing every single program process, and then explorer (which is about 16 processes) i can go from a 400-500mb page file bak to 70mb of a clean reboot.

I don't even have to reboot to gain bak leaked memory--and that is awesome.

I think most of the "PC users are idiots" comments stem from PC users who have no/very little exerpience using Macs and make idiotic statements like "Macs suck, you can't upgrade their hardware" or "Macs suck, are stupid and hard to use" or, the always classic, "Macs suck."

You also proved a couple of people's ponits. You can make Windows a better running OS by tweaking/hacking/customizing it and that's fine for a computer geek. But for the other 99% of the computer using populace that's not an option. Either because of lack of knowledge, lack of time, or both. Thru high school and college I loved messing around w/Windows and my hardware but once I got outta college and into the real world I had an unexpected priority shift. I needed to spend more time using a computer and less time hacking/customizing it (not to mention our IT guy probably wouldn't like it if I came in and started messing w/all the windows boxes). If I'm busy at work I don't have time to ***** around w/a machine that decided to start acting funny. I want to edit. We have lots of clients paying us lots of money to get product out the door in a very time sensitive industry so figuring out why our windows machine deicded to crap out is a royal PITA. Now do our Macs trip out too? Of course, no computer is perferct. But our Macs are much less error prone than our PCs.

And although hardware can cause lock-ups and other errors most of those problems are Windows related. Linux is significantly more stable than any version of Windows and it runs on the same hardware Windows does.


Lethal

[caveman_uk]

Originally posted by hvfsl
Talk to people on PC forums like www.futuremark.com, they say the main problem with Macs (and why they will not switch) is that they are too expensive compared to PCs. The second problem is games, but since games only acount for about 20% of the PC market, it is not so important (unless Apple wants to mainly target homes and not businesses).

A lot of them would love to get a Mac if it was cheaper. Apple needs to make something like this if they really want PC users to switch:

2Ghz (single) G5, ATI Radeon 9800pro, 60GB Hard Disk, 512MB RAM 17in CRT monitor - £900 (around $1400)

This computer would be comparible in terms of speed to similar offerings by Dell and others.
I read something the other day that was saying that Apple doesn't actually need to go for the low end market. It makes some of the biggest margins in the business basically because it has loyal users who ARE prepared to pay extra for a better machine/ user experience. Sure I'd love G5 for £900 (the spec you describe is sounds like a G5 emac) but even if Apple were to go for market share and reduce it's prices there'd still be people going 'I can get an emachine PC for £300($500)'. Nobody tells BMW or Lexus that they should make cheaper more basic cars just because Ford and Honda sell more cars than them.

We'd all like Apple's to be more widely used but some people have either prejudices or bad past experiences with Macs. A guy I work with took the piss out of me when I got my first mac because he'd used one about 6 years ago and hated it's incompatibility. But his Mum bought a new iMac recently and he's used it and OS X and he's that impressed he says his next laptop will probably be a powerbook.;) ;) ;)

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by stoid
On the Windows operating system, if you try to go any deeper that exactly the functions that come at you with a full frontal head on assault of obviousness, you will get headache after headache. Windows user simply accept this as a fact of life that their OS is poorly designed. My friend who is as into windows as I am to the mac said when I asked why everything was so difficult on a windows machine, "*shrug* That's just the way it is." I almost cried because if an exteremly experience windows user can't use pro-features and instead has given up hope, that's bad for a switcher. On the Apple operating system, every single function down to the smallest most obscure parts are totally accessible and user friendly. If a switcher has already given up on the ease of pro features of an OS, they may find the utter simplicity of the Macintosh operating system to be confining. It is only when they realize that "everything just works" on a mac that they will enjoying their switcher experience.

being a tech i see things that can be improved on both platforms and see that acutally we are all years away from the computer being user friendly...but the mac os is far closer than windows

many windows users have accepted that the os is very hard to use...it is so complicated that you can get a phd just studying the ins and outs of the windows family of products...the more i learn everyday as a pc tech, the more i realize that i don't know

now if every person who never had a chance at a computer got to have a mac for a month vs a pc for a month, what do you think the outcome of that experiment would be:p

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by hvfsl
Talk to people on PC forums like www.futuremark.com, they say the main problem with Macs (and why they will not switch) is that they are too expensive compared to PCs. The second problem is games, but since games only acount for about 20% of the PC market, it is not so important (unless Apple wants to mainly target homes and not businesses).

A lot of them would love to get a Mac if it was cheaper. Apple needs to make something like this if they really want PC users to switch:

2Ghz (single) G5, ATI Radeon 9800pro, 60GB Hard Disk, 512MB RAM 17in CRT monitor - £900 (around $1400)

This computer would be comparible in terms of speed to similar offerings by Dell and others.


If all you compare are basic hardware numbers and sticker price Apple is never going to compete w/Dell on that level. If you look at the entire computer (both hardware and installed software) the price gap shrinks a lot. Computers are fast enough now that average consumers should be comparing usability and software bundles, but it's easier to sell someone/market a "faster" computer instead of a better computer.


Lethal

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe

And although hardware can cause lock-ups and other errors most of those problems are Windows related. Linux is significantly more stable than any version of Windows and it runs on the same hardware Windows does.


Lethal

that is a great point

sometimes mac users attribute the pc probems too much to the pc boxes and not to the operating system...in nearly five years in the high tech field, i have found the issues to be more with the windows operating system than all other factors put together

i do think windows has improved greatly, but it is still a far cry from the mac os

i use os 9 and i love it...while os x got a bad and slow start, i feel ready to switch to that operating system soon enough...but i will have to get all new adobe and macromedia software to work with it...but being that i am talking about software, i will have to get those titles soon anyway

[revenuee]

I once had a guy tell me, "the mac OS is to easy to use (referring to OS 9)"

I don't know about you guys, but i don't want to have a CS degree inorder to get my computer to work.

And after spending all that money on a machine, i really don't want to spend another substantial amount of time in figuring out how to get everything to work properly. IE new drives, Hardware, software, because that just means that i can't work on the things that i want to, and things that make me money.

Someone was saying how they can get their windows XP system up and running in 1.5 hours.
Great

I can get my OS 9 system running in less then 45 minutes. And i don't have any special CD's with applications, Patches, Drivers, other then the CD's that came with hardware and software that i bough - some hardware doesn't even need driver installation. Untill this post i've never felt the need to acctually tell that to anyone because i didn't think that it was such a feat to be able to dumb and reset up a system drive. I've never even thought about having to tweak my OS, like i've been reading about doing in windows in some of these other posts.

I've always thought computers where supposed to help us innovate and create new things, help us move forward. How much forward are we moving when getting the computer to work takes more time then working on it. Isn't it the job the the people that made the computer to make it work for us? Other wise i want my money back?

In regards to the the post about BMW and Lexus. Those companies aren't complaining about market share, and aren't putting out AD campaines to get people to "switch" Like apple does. BMW and Lexus are quite happy with their market share because it makes their product exclusive. Apple doesn't. they want more people on macs, and they do want more market share.

I myself was a Windows troll (macs suck - just cause) untill 5 years ago when i realized i was spending more time getting my computer to edit my video work, then i was spending editing my video. When i switched 4 years ago, you could say i became a Mac Troll then.

Friends say - "i'm having trouple with my PC"
My response - "buy a mac, PC SUCKS"

[MorganX]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
sometimes mac users attribute the pc probems too much to the pc boxes and not to the operating system...in nearly five years in the high tech field, i have found the issues to be more with the windows operating system than all other factors put together


Most of them are due to drivers. Micrfosoft could control that, but there would be bitching about that.

Microsoft had defaulted in the W98 beta to not allowing unsigned drivers. And it was very difficult to enable it. It didn't fly in the beta and it won't fly now. People would say MS is just trying to force developers to pay the WHQL fee.

IHVs are getting better at qualifying their drivers, but drivers and third party applications are still the primary cause of instability in windows and probably all other OS that aren't embedded and locked up.

edit: You also have motherboard manufacturers trying to tweak their systems for the competitive edge. MS partnering with Phoenix BIOS is great news.... to some.

[LimeLite]

Originally posted by revenuee
I once had a guy tell me, "the mac OS is to easy to use (referring to OS 9)"

I don't know about you guys, but i don't want to have a CS degree inorder to get my computer to work.

And after spending all that money on a machine, i really don't want to spend another substantial amount of time in figuring out how to get everything to work properly. IE new drives, Hardware, software, because that just means that i can't work on the things that i want to, and things that make me money.

If you had read the third post down, I said ultimately the same thing.

[revenuee]

Originally posted by LimeLite
If you had read the third post down, I said ultimately the same thing.

Yes, i see the redundancy now... sorry, i guess i could of just qouted, oh well

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by MorganX
Most of them are due to drivers. Micrfosoft could control that, but there would be bitching about that.

Microsoft had defaulted in the W98 beta to not allowing unsigned drivers. And it was very difficult to enable it. It didn't fly in the beta and it won't fly now. People would say MS is just trying to force developers to pay the WHQL fee.

IHVs are getting better at qualifying their drivers, but drivers and third party applications are still the primary cause of instability in windows and probably all other OS that aren't embedded and locked up.

edit: You also have motherboard manufacturers trying to tweak their systems for the competitive edge. MS partnering with Phoenix BIOS is great news.... to some.

I agree. Whenever people start saying Apple should port OS X to run freely on x86 hardware I always bring this point up. OS X on x86 hardware probably wouldn't fair much better than XP or 2k on x86 hardware because there are just so maybe variables it's impossible to make an OS that will be stable on the millions of variations of hardware, drivers, and chipsets that are out there. Kind of a jack of all trades master of none situation.

I think if MS let Dell or someone make a custom version of windows that only worked on their machines and only allowed a small number of 3rd party companies to make hardware for it (varouis PCI cards, etc.,) then you could have a Win/x86 machine that could stand up to a Mac in terms of stability and hardware/software integration.


Lethal

[Mav451]

I'm starting to see a pattern here.

Mac heads typically are much like the Lexus/Acura customers.

People who really want performance would get an exotic (Porsche/NSX/etc.) and leave it at that, where as car enthusiast (tweaker in the car world, and not a "ricer" either) understands how engines work and can get easily twice the performance of those cars at WELL over half the cost.

I did NOT want a cookie for that. I'm just saying that the Mac heads live in a world where everything is black and white--Mac's are the best machines, and ALL Wintel (or AMD user here) boxes are of inferior quality--the majority of responses have reflected that. However, a few users here, (a small % as always) are more clear headed than the zealots and understand where i'm coming from.

I mention the time frame and my registry entries and the tweaks b/c i got it done EASILY. Sure it is not as easy as Mac OS X (do nothing most of the time haha), but it shows it CAN be done for NOT as much trouble as most people show Windows Boxes to be.

Most people who have BSOD/usual wintel box "problems" have had shown little proof of understanding the hardware/OS relationship or even the diverse driver-hardware-OS relationship.

People usually associate wintel boxes as unstable from experiences with Compaq's or Emachines.

I suggest you actually try an Alienware box/Custom built (NOT mom and pop, which can actually be worse than even emachines) -- and you will undoubtedly notice a difference.

Most people that love the Mac are ironically CS majors (b/c they understand why it's so good), but again, the others who love the simplicity make the other large %.

But how many actually understand the hardware relationship? Not many.

How many know that using an underpowered PSU can cause instability problems ALONE? Do you understand why a weak PSU can cause instability? Most tweakers/enthusiasts do.

And how many Mac heads are tweakers (hardware)? An even smaller %.

revenuee: You definitely are a Mac troll :) Nonetheless, you make some good points. However, i want to clarify a few things. When i say i run a registry entry, that means the tweak is done once and only once. Think of it as part of the installation process--not as an "ongoing", i gotta tweak this today, i'll tweak that next week that wastes time. I have been very productive on my box (papers/powerpoint presentations/online hw assignments/adobe/etc.) b/c it hasn't crashed once. How does tweaking it once (over 9months ago) all of a sudden "reduce my productivity" as most Mac users like to talk about? What productivity am i losing?

In fact, i haven't tweaked ANYTHING after my installation of XP. Updated drivers? If you do not keep an backup of updated drivers, than even on a Mac your asking for trouble--unless they don't update drivers for a Mac (which is impossible as Mac's share a lot of the same hardware, just under a different OS).

[LimeLite]

It's easy to throw out the term Mac Zealot anytime someone points out their belief that macs are better. But I'm sorry, you have failed to prove your point with your car analogy. I see where you're coming from, and I completely understand your point.

The issue here is that, in keeping with your analogy, when I buy a car, I want to be able to drive it. I want it to run, and keep running, with very little maintenance. That's not to say I don't want to get the most out of my car, and that's not to say I don't know how the engine works, but why would I want a car that breaks down? Why would I buy a junker that takes me a few weeks to get it running, and needs to be put in the shop every now and then because the engine broke down or a part got recalled?

If, when the car *did* run, it was more powerful than the cars that didn't need that much work, then maybe I could see your point, because it would be a matter of pride, that the time I took was well spent in making my car purr.

But in this case, the car I have to fix will never run as smoothly as the other car, and the broken spring in the seat cushion is poking me in the ass.

[Mav451]

well its just as easy to throw out the "stupid peecee user" or whatever lingo of the day Mac heads like to use nowadays (as i'm not a Mac head, i wouldn't know *_*) LOOK through the signatures of users on this forum--more than 50% have something about how their are suprerior to all, Peecees suck, or other similar vocabulary (and tone).

Mac heads continually zone out any arguments that XP is even slightly useful--which makes Mac heads that much more hypocritical and ignorant in their claims. Try not to close off the world to all of your "pro-Mac' information and you may find that it is actually quite different.

That is why i constantly say Mac zealot--tell me one that has not just completely ignored what I just said and just said or bottom-lined that i'm a PC user, and that "PC's suck", or winbloze. Please.

Then you may cast that "first stone" when you claim that I throw out the Mac Zealot term haphazardly whenever someone believes Macs are better.

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by Mav451
I'm starting to see a pattern here.

Mac heads typically are much like the Lexus/Acura customers.

People who really want performance would get an exotic (Porsche/NSX/etc.) and leave it at that, where as car enthusiast (tweaker in the car world, and not a "ricer" either) understands how engines work and can get easily twice the performance of those cars at WELL over half the cost.

I did NOT want a cookie for that. I'm just saying that the Mac heads live in a world where everything is black and white--Mac's are the best machines, and ALL Wintel (or AMD user here) boxes are of inferior quality--the majority of responses have reflected that. However, a few users here, (a small % as always) are more clear headed than the zealots and understand where i'm coming from.

I mention the time frame and my registry entries and the tweaks b/c i got it done EASILY. Sure it is not as easy as Mac OS X (do nothing most of the time haha), but it shows it CAN be done for NOT as much trouble as most people show Windows Boxes to be.

Most people who have BSOD/usual wintel box "problems" have had shown little proof of understanding the hardware/OS relationship or even the diverse driver-hardware-OS relationship.

People usually associate wintel boxes as unstable from experiences with Compaq's or Emachines.

I suggest you actually try an Alienware box/Custom built (NOT mom and pop, which can actually be worse than even emachines) -- and you will undoubtedly notice a difference.

Most people that love the Mac are ironically CS majors (b/c they understand why it's so good), but again, the others who love the simplicity make the other large %.

But how many actually understand the hardware relationship? Not many.

How many know that using an underpowered PSU can cause instability problems ALONE? Do you understand why a weak PSU can cause instability? Most tweakers/enthusiasts do.

And how many Mac heads are tweakers (hardware)? An even smaller %.

revenuee: You definitely are a Mac troll :) Nonetheless, you make some good points. However, i want to clarify a few things. When i say i run a registry entry, that means the tweak is done once and only once. Think of it as part of the installation process--not as an "ongoing", i gotta tweak this today, i'll tweak that next week that wastes time. I have been very productive on my box (papers/powerpoint presentations/online hw assignments/adobe/etc.) b/c it hasn't crashed once. How does tweaking it once (over 9months ago) all of a sudden "reduce my productivity" as most Mac users like to talk about? What productivity am i losing?

In fact, i haven't tweaked ANYTHING after my installation of XP. Updated drivers? If you do not keep an backup of updated drivers, than even on a Mac your asking for trouble--unless they don't update drivers for a Mac (which is impossible as Mac's share a lot of the same hardware, just under a different OS).

I don't think that anyone would deny that if you were going for the fastest hardware at the lowest price you would build your own rig (or to continue your analogy add performance mods to your car). But comparing and out of the box product to one that has been custom made/moddified isn't an accurate comparison. If you are going to compare an off the shelf Mac to a PC then the PC should be off the shelf as well (Dell, HP, Gateway, etc.,.). If you want to use custom PCs as your example then hit a Mac moding site and compare customs to customs. I custom build my PCs and sometimes when talking about computers it's hard for me to remember that I'm in a minority and what's true/easy for me isn't true/easy for probably 99% of computer users. You got those tweaks done easily, but try explaining it to a typical end user and see how well they handle it. Will they get it done in 1.5hrs? If you are a tweaker

And, as I stated in a previou post, I understand that not all issues w/Win/x86 boxes are Windows centric but a bad stick of RAM or a weak PSU can happen to any computer and I don't see people w/OS X or Linux running into as many issues as Windows users do. If you read my last post you'll see a bit more what my thoughts on the matter are.

I don't think you give the Mac commity enough credit. Most Mac users are ex-PC users. They switched, and decided to stay w/the Mac platform for a reason. Are most PC users ex-Mac users?

That being said there are a lot of Mac zealots on this board that think Apple is the end all, be all computer company and, well, they should just be just like the PC zealots.

If you want to game, are a tweaker/modder, work in 3D, need a render farm, or are on a super tight budget I think you might be better off on a PC. If you work in print/photography/graphic design, audio, or video/film I think you would be better off on a Mac. For typical business usage I can't really comment because that's not my field so I don't know what the average user needs. For a typical home computer either platform will do but I think the Mac is the better choice (the biggest reason I say this is because of all the Apple software that comes standard w/every Mac). I'm sure there are dozens of other niche users but I only listed the ones that came off the top of my head.


Lethal

[Mav451]

Haha, after reading your post, AGAIN you perpetuate common Mac-side misconceptions:

*PCs are unreliable and need constant maintenance*.

9 months. No maintenance. Got school work from engineering major from freshman-sophmore college year--ALL done with this PC not affecting my productivity AT ALL (more like my professors bad lectures affecting my productivity :) )

Mac heads can't stop talking about their productivity--well show me where i have lost mine. Actually i just answered my own question--games, that's where i lose all of mine. Too many games for the PC...which means that many more ways to screw up your productivity.

"junkers"
How are "peecees" of lesser quality? Compare an eMac (which is the closest in price to PCs, but not even close in raw performance) to the quality of a high performance PC (run from 999 to mid 1500's nowadagys). Custom built have even HIGHER performance/value than the mainstream ones for that much less.

[Mav451]

Lethal- thank you for a well thought post. It is one in a million in a place like this and helps shines some true, knowledgable thinking on the matter.

[FlamDrag]

This is not difficult to answer.

1. It's easier to buy a Windows box.

2. It's cheaper to buy a Windows box.

3. They're used to buying a Windows box.

4. As convoluted as Windows is - they're used to it. Macs are confusing after using Windows. Really, they are.

5. They don't understand that it's not such a switch as it's perceived to be. Before I switched, Macs seemd like another planet.

The folks that might switch fall into (in my view - I have no empirical data to back up my statements) two categories:

a) folks who are buying their first computer

b) folks who are buying a computer who are not in love with their computer but want to spend the money on a mid-range computer, not low-end. These buyers also do research on their purchases.

[LimeLite]

Um, I don't think that I've completely ignored what you've said at all. And I certainly don't think that XP is completely useless. If it was completely useless, 95% of the world wouldn't be able to get anything done. I think if anything you're the one being a "PC Head" and not listening to all of the arguments.

Granted, some of them are biased, but what do you expect? You're at an Apple enthusiasts website! You can't possibly tell me that if you were to go to a PC forum that you wouldn't find as many "PC Zealots". In addition, when we make up only about 5% of the market, maybe sometimes we need to go a little overboard to counter all of the criticism coming from the other 95%.

Are OS X and XP both operating systems that work?
Yes.

Can they both handle the basic tasks that I need them to handle?
Yes.

Are users of either necessarily smarter than users of the other?
No.

Is my preference OS X?
Absolutely. If I, and the other members of this site, didn't prefer OS X, we'd be at PCRumors.com right now.

You talk about not closing off the world to all of our "pro-Mac" information...well what about how much of the world is anti-Mac? And not just that, uninformed-anti-mac. Sometimes it takes the mac zealots to convince the typical PC user that maybe there is something to an Apple.

In all of your posts, not once did you acknowledge that there are good points to OS X. All you've said is how awesome you are at making XP work, and that you can install it in 3 hours, as if it's a marvel that an OS can be installed in 3 hours.

Once again, this is a site designed FOR THE MAC USER. Of course you're going to find a larger number of mac enthusiasts here than you would at normal places. But how dare you come in saying that there's something wrong with that?

No one is forcing you to post here, there's no gun to your head. If you'd like to stay and have positive discussions, you're more than welcome to. But do not generalize and bring stereotypes, especially since there are the same types of people on both sides.

[Mav451]

on your point about ex-pc users.

My friend who is ridiculously now pro-Mac came from a BSODing, compaq Windows 95, pentium 1 @ 200mhz box.

Not exactly an unbiased starting point hmm?

[Capt Underpants]

As much as you would like to believe that ALL windows users are ignorant, stubborn people who can't see the light, you are wrong. You say people have just gotten used to windows, and while I feel that is partially acceptable, I can't help but think that there are people out there who just like Windows more than the Mac OS. It is all personal preference, and as much as you would like to believe that windows crashes all of the time, it is not half as bad as some of you make it out to be. Is is that big of a deal if not everyone is switching to a mac? Isn't that part of the Apple prestige: that it is not the status quo? If Apple gains 50% of the computer market, then sure Apple is doing great, but Apple will have then lost what so many people love about it.

Captain Underpants

[Mav451]

Limelight-- you were the first to criticize and stereotype my post before anyone else.

2ndly, your bring your own sterotypes to this board--don't you DARE to criticize me of my supposed stereotypes when you make statements such as:

When I talk to Windows users, it never ceases to amaze me how often I hear, "Macs are for stupid people. Their OS is too easy to use." Trying to understand that logic makes my brain hurt.

Is that going to start a positive discussion? Don't be a hypocrite by saying you want a positive discussion when you already contradicted yourself before the discussion even STARTED.

I did not acknowledge anything about OSX b/c i do not know anything about it. Unlike you, i tend to base my information on stuff that i have actually experienced, worked on, and tweaked/studied/took apart for more than just a few weeks.

Mac heads touch an XP computer for 10 or so minutes, than immediately start criticizing it's "fisher price" look when they have no idea there's a powerful theme program (StyleXP from TGsoft) that employs Microsofts VERY own Visual Styles format to create more pleasing themes.

Third--where did i say there was something wrong with using Macs? I said there's something wrong with perpetuating old Mac myths (that PC's are unreliable, need constant tweaking, etc. etc.)

Where in my posts do i say that it is bad to be a Mac user? I simply say that it is bad to believe the common myths, that is all. I don't care if you're a Mac user--i only care if you're a Mac user b/c you solely believed in the myths ALONE and didn't understand the situation completely.

[LimeLite]

You also keep writing "peecee" in quotes like that when no one else is calling them peecee's, just you.

Once again, I'm not saying that all Windows based machines are inferior. I'm not even saying that the price/performance is equal, although if you were to put everything that Apple puts in it's machines, and I mean everything, you'll notice that the prices aren't really all that far off, especially since when you build your own machine, you need to buy the OS which is also pretty expensive. (WinXP Pro is about $300)

Like I said, I'm not saying all of them suck, and with an experienced user, such as you, setting them up, obviously they can work nicely. But I also know a lot of friends with PC's, and I know how many times they need to find a driver for something, or there's an issue they can't figure out, and they end up needing to re-install the whole system, and go through a whole lot of hassle. It's not every single machine, but it's a significant amount of people. And like others have said, it's hard to compare a built machine to a pre=packaged one.

And every time you insult the things others here have posted, I think you're really not realizing that you're doing a similar thing, just the PC version. You've attacked me a few times but I'm honestly not coming from a hostile point of view. I'm just trying to give you another point of view as best as I can.

[LimeLite]

I don't see what was wrong with my statement about not understanding when people say that Mac users are stupid because the OS is too easy to use. That does make my brain hurt to try to understand that logic because it just doesn't make sense in my eyes. I never said PC users were stupid for using Windows, all I said was that I couldn't understand how you could call someone stupid for wanting to use an OS that's easy to use.

You say you're trying to stop the ancient mac myths...I'm sorry, but there are even more myths on the PC side about macs, don't you think?

[Mav451]

Ok well one insult leads to another.

There was obviously fire before the discussion even began (you weren't the only one, I'll admit).

I'm even wondering if an unbiased discussion is even possible on a Mac board. It probably isn't...will it get close if a PC zealot goes overboard and bashes you in the head with it? Maybe :)

I'll agree that fighting fire with fire usually does not work to well...

PS: I write peecees b/c i posted here back in July (when i joined) and i began to learn that vocabulary from the users who responded to my posts--more than 50% of people who responded to my posts used it (believe it or not).

[Les Kern]

Most people who have BSOD/usual wintel box "problems" have had shown little proof of understanding the hardware/OS relationship or even the diverse driver-hardware-OS relationship...... How does tweaking it once (over 9months ago) all of a sudden "reduce my productivity" as most Mac users like to talk about? What productivity am i losing?

Because you are talking about YOU, and not THEM. As a user of both platforms longer than most, and in charge of 700+ machines and well over 1000 users, I can say, where most can't, that XP or 2000 or whatever iteration of Windows will most certainly impact your productivity; dramatically at that. If you had the oportunity to get data in larger anounts, you'd see the same result. In fact, this data is out there for those who choose to look for it. I'm talking REAL data, not anecdotal data. It's why I switched long ago, because, on the whole, life is too damn short to spend any time on tweaking. I've got work to do.
Interestingly enough, I am writing this on a Tablet PC. Don't even get me started on these $2,000 time-wasters!

[crees!]

Most Mac users are ex-PC users. They switched, and decided to stay w/the Mac platform for a reason.

All I have to say is thank god I switched. There will never be any going back for me. Yes, I've built my own Windows box before. It's still running 3 1/2 years later but do you think I'm going to go back to it now? Heck no. This is the best decision I have ever made. I would guess the next best decision would be when I decide to get married.

[LimeLite]

Originally posted by Mav451
I'm even wondering if an unbiased discussion is even possible on a Mac board. It probably isn't...will it get close if a PC zealot goes overboard and bashes you in the head with it? Maybe :)

I think an unbiased discussion is possible, but I think a lot of people have their defenses up because, as a minority in the computer world, a lot of us probably have to explain our motives for using a Mac almost constantly. I know that for me it's a pretty routine thing when I meet someone who sees that I use a mac and is instantly on a rant about how could I use a mac, macs suck (the same bias you came here to debunk, but on the other side of things). I also think that this accounts for why, when a mac user sees someone else using a mac, their inclined to introduce themselves. It's nice to meet a person who just understands why you use a mac, because they use it for the same reason.

This is probably even more escalated when you consider that this is a mac site, and in a way, it's a safe haven, because no one needs to explain their computer choice here, everyone understands why.

I'd also like to point out that I am not a typical zealot, and anything I said was from hands on experience, not from believing the myths. Maybe I've just had a bad experience, as some PC users have had a bad experience with Macs.

[bousozoku]

Mav451:

The fact that you're more wonderful than most of the world's PC builders just makes me so happy to find you here. I am just honoured to be in your presence.

It's true that there are a few good x86 boxes out there. I've spec-ed a few myself. However, if there's RAM which is not consistent with specifications, neither the motherboard nor Windows rejects it. Therefore, you get random re-booting, crashing, locking up. With Mac OS machines, the open firmware will not allow this sort of RAM to be used, increasing stability.

Microsoft constantly points fingers to the driver writers, and with good reason. Does Microsoft still allow dodgy drivers to run? Yes. If they force the drivers to a higher standard, their image would improve.

Microsoft spends 100 percent of their time doing 65 percent of the work. If they did the whole job, there wouldn't be any reason for Mac users to laugh at Windows and people wouldn't find security holes regularly.

I've used every operating system Microsoft has offered in the United States and another offered in Japan. WinXP is better than the rest, unless we include OS/2 and that was pure IBM design. (Compare OS/2 to IBM VM--you'll see what I mean.)

I could buy a WinXP machine, carefully spec-ed and get work done. However, it would cost just as much as a Mac OS X machine because of the level of components and extra software to keep it protected and stable.

[Mav451]

I honestly cannot tell if you are using sarcasm in your first 2 sentences :confused:

Agreeably, M$ does have a lot of work to do: Heck, my ENCE200 (Civil Engineering and Programming-->> i have no idea why this is required as an intro course) professor makes sure he insults M$ in each of his lectures...and while they are funny, yes, they have truth in it--security is horrible on XP, which is why i am disabled DCOM on my box (DCOMbobulator). DCOM is how the viruses this summer have spread so easily (DCOM permamently closed shuts off the passage way completely for those viruses)

[beefcake]

Mav, let me first begin by saying I'm insulted by your close-mindedness. I'm a Mac user and have been for approximately two months. It is my opinion that the Powerbook I'm on is more stable that any Windows machine I have used in the past. Do you want to call me a Mac head for that? I get annoyed when people stereotype me because I own a machine made by Apple. When people come to my room and look at the computer, the first thing they say is always "Oh, so you're a Mac user?" as if Mac is a deragatory term. I've come to the conclusion that the reason there is such a rift is because ignorant people, for whatever reason, feel the need to perpetuate the stereotype that Mac users think they're better than everyone.

I've used PCs before and I'll use them again. After all, PC or Mac, we're talking about machines, not lifestyles or ideologies. I come to these forums to discuss computers, not to be told by someone that I think I'm better than everyone because I own a Mac.

[Mav451]

Oh so that's not a stereotype? Post a question or topic, something like, "PCs are better, Macs sucks" on this forum and tell me that the majority of the posts will not involve content that reflects a tone of superiority.

Secondly, when i say Mac heads, it doesn't mean just b/c you own an Apple product. My very own roommate uses BOTH an INTEL p4 system and a Pbook. I would not call him a Mac head at all.

You say your insulted? Then prove to me how "un"closeminded Mac users on this board are when you give a statement along the lines of "PCs are better". Watch for the diction and tone used in the following posts. Tell me those do not contain even a small amount of "as Mac users, we are better than all PC users".

Show me this--especially on this kind of board (Mac haven, as Lime called it :) ). Sensible crossplatform discussion is an EXTREME rarity these days.

[5300cs]

Originally posted by Mav451
I did not acknowledge anything about OSX b/c i do not know anything about it. Unlike you, i tend to base my information on stuff that i have actually experienced, worked on, and tweaked/studied/took apart for more than just a few weeks.

If you don't know anything about OS X why are you even here posting?? MACrumors.com, not letsdefendxpcauseiveworkedfor9monthsonitwithoutanyproblems.com :rolleyes:

Mac heads touch an XP computer for 10 or so minutes, than immediately start criticizing it's "fisher price" look when they have no idea there's a powerful theme program (StyleXP from TGsoft) that employs Microsofts VERY own Visual Styles format to create more pleasing themes.


I've used win3,1, 95, 98, Me, NT, 2000 & XP and XP is ok but nowhere near as sexy as OS X.

The main reason I don't use windows is because it's a MICROSOFT product. I couldn't care less about PCs (peecees if you will) it's the company that made windows that I detest. I don't care how much cheaper a wintel box is, or that it can run 50,000,000 games or that every single one of my peripherals is wireless- I could not care less if you paid me.

Apple's OS & hardware appeal to the designer in me, so baring any of my machines suddenly exploding and killing me, I'd never switch back.

[beefcake]

Of course if you make a thread called "PC's are better" you'll get a lot of dissent, thats common sense. These are Mac forums. Imagine doing the same thing on a hardcore PC board.

[LimeLite]

Originally posted by Mav451
\You say your insulted? Then prove to me how "un"closeminded Mac users on this board are when you give a statement along the lines of "PCs are better". Watch for the diction and tone used in the following posts. Tell me those do not contain even a small amount of "as Mac users, we are better than all PC users".

If someone were to give a statement saying PCs are better, that statement itself would be close minded. And of course you're going to get an aggressive response if you say something like that! This is a Mac specific forum. Do you think that there wouldn't be just as aggressive a response if I went to a PC forum and said Macs are better? I'd like to see how civilized a discussion would come from that!

edit: sorry beefcake, looks like we posted in the same minute. great minds think alike, huh?

[5300cs]

Originally posted by Mav451
Sensible crossplatform discussion is an EXTREME rarity these days.

Especially with you here ... :rolleyes:

[Mav451]

Um, considering there's next to little or 1% from the PC side on this forum, a crossplatform dicussion on this forum would be, for the most part Mac-only.

Would it be fine for most? Of course. You're on a Mac forum and expect Mac-biased responses--that what you come here for.

Would i expect this thread to contain any insight from the PC side? Not really.
As i'm one of the few PC users here, I am already being overwhelmed (and that's just this single thread alone). Majority is not necessarily right all the time (The majority on this very forum being Mac, the majority overall in the world being PCs--the statement applies to both)

[LimeLite]

Originally posted by Mav451
Would i expect this thread to contain any insight from the PC side? Not really.
As i'm one of the few PC users here, I am already being overwhelmed (and that's just this single thread alone). Majority is not necessarily right all the time (The majority on this very forum being Mac, the majority overall in the world being PCs--the statement applies to both)
But why come here to discuss PC's? You're not being attacked for being a PC user, you can not blame it on that. It's the ideas you're presenting that are the issue. And also, how do you expect to have a legitimate cross-platform discussion when you say you've never even used OS X? At least I and many others have had experience with Windows, and based on that experience, we've chosen Apple. You have only experienced Windows, and based on that you choose, surprise surprise, Windows. Come back when you've used OS X for enough time to form an educated opinion, then the real discussion can begin. Until then, your points are as biased as you accuse us all of being.

[beefcake]

I've used PCs all my life, you're not the only PC user here, you may be one of the only non-Mac users though.

[Mav451]

WAIT WAIT WAIT.

But when did i attack OSX?

I attempted to debunk myths about WINDOWS ONLY. It had nothing to do with OSX.

From what my CS major roommate has told me, "OSX is awesome". Again, Intel / custom built guy, saying that OSX is awesome.

When i said cross platform, i mean PC/Mac sides talking about WINDOWS. I had not meant to say that PC/Mac users talking about windows AND OSX. I don't know enough about OSX to even discuss it. There is a difference.

[LimeLite]

I didn't say you attacked OS X. I just said you should try it.

Maybe you can explain why it is your job to debunk all of the PC myths on the mac side? And of all places to do it, charging right into a mac site probably isn't the best way to do it. I mean, no offense, but nothing you've said has convinced me that my opinion of PC's is unjustified. Why? Because they are based in my own experience, just as they are with many people here. See, when 95% of the world uses PC's, it's much, much more common for a mac user to be exposed to Windows than vice versa. As you've admitted yourself, you have no mac experience. I however, have had experience in both, which is why, when I say that it is my belief that OS X is better than Windows, I have a right to say that, because it is an *informed* opinion. If you were to say Windows is better, you have a right to that belief, but what are you comparing it to? All you know is Windows?

What I'm saying is this: Your reason for coming here is to debunk the notion that Windows has a lot of problems and that it is lacking compared to OS X. However, you can't legitimately say that Windows *isn't* lacking compared to OS X, because you've never used OS X. And though it may be your experience that Windows works flawlessly, it is my *experience*, not belief, that it does not.

[Mav451]

Again i have not attacked OSX at all. I have not made comparisons to OSX at all.

Where did you get that idea in the first place?

All that I'm trying to say is that Windows XP is more useable than people here are making it out to be. THAT IS ALL. It has NOTHING to do with comparisons to OSX. Nothing.

Don't make up statements that i DID NOT MAKE just so you can make your "PC user A does not know anything about OSX--let's criticize him for it". Nothing you have said has convinced me otherwise. What will make me switch is probably from what my roommate will tell me.

[LimeLite]

I did not criticize you for not using OS X at all! Wow, you either are getting really defensive or you just love starting fights.

All I said was that I recommend that you use OS X. I didn't say switch to it, I said use it, as in test it, try it out. You keep on getting upset at me for accusing you of bashing OS X but not once did I say that.

The reason I'm saying to try OS X is that maybe once you'd used it, you'd understand why there are people who think that, compared to it, XP is "unusable". Not that XP is trash, but that in comparison, OS X is much more intuitive and fluid.

But once again, this all comes down to opinion. Even saying XP is usable is still an opinion.

[Mav451]

However, you can't legitimately say that Windows *isn't* lacking compared to OS X, because you've never used OS X. And though it may be your experience that Windows works flawlessly, it is my *experience*, not belief, that it does not.

That's you criticizing me about not using OSX. I'm not getting defensive. You're the one starting the fights b/c you are MAKING UP MY STATEMENTS. How much more clear can i be? I didn't say anything about OSX. Anything you say about me comparing XP to OSX is a lie.

[jefhatfield]

being a mac user mostly on my free time, and a pc tech for a living (doing some mac work), i see good sides to both the hardware and software of both platforms

if a complete newbie wanted me to sum up the field for them in a few small sentences as it relates to their strenghs and weaknesses, i would say pc hardware is incresingly affordable and better and faster all the time...and it's a great time to buy

...and the thing that makes the mac really shine is their operating system and ease of use and that the mac would be easier to learn quickly

[asphalt-proof]

Originally posted by Mav451
It is no suprise that even now, Mac heads stereotype and blanket statement all the typical "wintel users" as blundering idiots
Nonetheless, i will present a dilemma for you to munch on.

My roommate, here @ Univeristy of Maryland is a hardcore (anti - AMD) pro INTEL chip user. However, he is also a CS major, and loves his new 15" Al PBook (oh and new Ipod) to death. If more popular games were on the Mac, he said he would consider not even USING his current 3.0p4 system...alas that is probably the only thing holding him back.

I run my specialized registry entries, DCOMbobulator, and my 2 CD's of patches, drivers, and applications, and i can easily clean install XP Corporate Integrated SP1 in under 1.5 hours, tweaked and ready to go.

That's what knowing your system is.

I have for once never given up on computer problems. The Via kt133's however...(4 year old original AMD thunderbird chipset) left much to be desired.

"The OS is a challenge"- is that so? I've installed XP Corporate for 3 of my friends, done it under 2 hours, and none of them have had problems for the past 9 months (and this is my VERY first time building computers). Of course, all are based on Nforce2.

Little do most Mac heads realize that "restart", BSOD, and other common lockup problems are linked with HARDWARE (bad memory sticks, hot case temps, weak psu, etc.), and not software.

I have found ways to also gain back memory on my PC (which has been left running for over 3 weeks straight). By closing every single program process, and then explorer (which is about 16 processes) i can go from a 400-500mb page file bak to 70mb of a clean reboot.

I don't even have to reboot to gain bak leaked memory--and that is awesome.

I don't consider myself a hardcore user. I have never built my own computer, though I have re-installed my WIn 95 and 98. XP was no big deal to learn BUT... it is so hard for me to do certain things on. Networking to other computers is a serious pain for me for one. The kicker for me though was the lastest round of viri that hit. I have never been hit before because I am very careful about not opening email attachements. But when I got hit by blaster I said enough. Yes, I should have downloaded the CRITICAL PATCH but I didn't. Then I find out how easy it was to build the virus and got pissed that Microsoft built a gaping hole in my comuter. THIS IS A FEATURE!? It must be because there are hole discovered every week. The hardest part of switching for me (switched last Saturday) was that I have NEVER spent any time on OSX. None...zip. I had hear that it was very easy and stable so I tought I would give it a try. Took me an hour to figure out how to do the basic and a week to learn how to do everything else I do on a computer
The learning curve was basically non-exisient. When I upgraded from win98 to XP is took a good several weeks before I felt comfortable with the system. I still feel that XP is solid... just full of holes and more than a little diffficult to use.
my 02.$

[LimeLite]

Originally posted by Mav451
That's you criticizing me about not using OSX. I'm not getting defensive. You're the one starting the fights b/c you are MAKING UP MY STATEMENTS. How much more clear can i be? I didn't say anything about OSX. Anything you say about me comparing XP to OSX is a lie.
I never stated that you ever compared OS X to XP. What I said was that you're reason for being here, if I'm not mistaken, was to debunk the thought that PCs are unusable or lacking. My point was that, as a user of both, it is my experience that Windows is lacking in comparison. No one here honestly thinks that Windows is straight up unusable. At least I doubt that. But most people will tell you that they think that Windows is inferior compared to OS X.

If you're here to stop people from thinking XP is unusable, there's no use. People know that obviously it is usable, 95% of people "use" it, so it must be "usable". But it is a common belief for the users of this site that OS X is *more* usable.

[Mav451]

Oh ok -- that's much different than what you said a few posts before :mad:

I'm not trying to CHANGE what people will think, just giving them opinion. My opinion answered the question why Windows users don't switch--it is MORE usable than most on this forum are making it. That is my entire opinion in a nutshell.

[arkmannj]

Kinda interesting to read the thoughts of Mac and PC Users around here. all I gotta say is when I wanna take the time to mess with a screwdriver I tinker with my Pc's like a mechanic would tinker with his old car at home. but when I want to get real work done... and when I want it done in a Nice, relyable enviroment I go right to my Ti-PB or my PowerMac.
and talk anout "out of the box" functionality. in about an hour a mac user can have Mac OS X installed, a firewall setup. share printers with users of the same or different OS's, be chatting... etc... etc... etc... I'm certified in MS, Novell, A+, network management degree Etc... (I'm not bragging just stating so the PC lovers don't get deffencive about me knowing nothing about PC's)
and I love My Mac.. I deal with windowz problems at work all day, when I come home I don't want to deal with the same stuff.

anyhow there's my 2 cents worth

[LimeLite]

That might be part of it, but it's also very possible that they don't switch because they still believe all of the myths that Macs are no good.

[dcb]

Actually Mav, this is as sensible as it gets in any crossplatform discussion on this board.

I still don't see how everyone has a perfect OSX. Notwithstanding numerous hardware problems with my iBook (It was so bad apple had to replace it!) , OSX has been the most unstable OS I have ever used. Programs quit unexpextantly on a daily basis, I get a kernal panic once a week, the computer doesn't want to wake up from sleep and after I upgraded to 10.2.6, I get this annoying clicking sound that apple doesn't have a fix for.

Now I am not saying windows is great either...thats why I "switched". Nonetheless, in my experience, OSX is not much better than 2000 or XP. Others will disagree and haven't had the problems I face (or they refuse to admit/ accept it) and that is great. As for me, there are benefits to a mac and there are benefits to a pc...and when I purchase another computer...I am going to choose the computer (apple or pc) that has the most bang for the buck. I guess I am saying that I am indifferent.

[asphalt-proof]

As i'm one of the few PC users here, I am already being overwhelmed (and that's just this single thread alone). Majority is not necessarily right all the time (The majority on this very forum being Mac, the majority overall in the world being PCs--the statement applies to both)

OK so far as I can tell you are not one of a few PC users... in fac fromt the posts it appears that mos of the peopel here use both platforms at least some of the time. It seems that the minory you belong in this forum to is the one that has never used OSX. The lack of knowledge that is being lamented it that you have never used OSX. This has been asked several times in several different ways but... why are you here? Have you been hired by microsoft to go to non-pro-windows forums and defend the empire? Look, its your opinion that P is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Fine. I felt the same way when I started to use it (after the learning curve). That's your opinion and I haven't read anyone trying to make you change that. Only point out some of their own experiences with the XP and compare that with their experience with Mac. They are also entitled to their opinions based upon their own experiences. Use OSX. Will it change your life? Will it make you more attractive, witty, see God? No. Its a computer not Tony Robbins. Give it a try and then compare your experiences between the OS's. Maybe you will still prefer XP. No one is going to shed a tear and I doubt that Steve Jobs will call to beg you to 'switch'. Undersand that nobody cares what you prefer. The reason we frequent this forum is because we prefer Macs. The quetion should be "how many of us go to pro wintel forums and point out the flaws of their platforms". I don't know but I do know that i don't go there. I just don't care. I have been there (windows XP) and done that and I don't want to go back.

(edit) dear god I jst read my post and am appalled at my tpyos...)

[LimeLite]

Thank you asphalt-proof. You summed it up pretty much perfectly.

[solvs]

Back on topic...

There are a lot of reasons. Some of them valid - price, software (including games). Some people are just used to Windows and don't want to make any big changes. But the same people that roll their eyes when I tell them to buy a Mac (many with not so valid reasons) are the ones that always call me with problems with their PCs. I'm the computer guy in the family.

The fact is that MOST of the Mac users that complain about Windows, have had to use Windows. Shoot, most Windows users complain about Windows. The problem is that some Windows users (ahem) will talk about how great it is without knowing much about the competition. Usable, maybe, but how many people really love XP? How many people would rather be using OS X if they could.

I do use Windows. 2000, XP, and I've used almost every other M$ OS since DOS quite extensively. Some of the Mac OS's weren't that great either, but OS X is the best OS I've ever used (though, Be is up there). XP is usable, but I can't stand it. My home built PC is 2000. Maybe it's just personal preference, but I wouldn't use Windows if I didn't have to.

And I'll bet there are a lot of PC users who feel the same way...

[LimeLite]

Not being able to run a lot of games and certain software is definitely understandable. But as far as price goes, i think a lot of people forget how high of a resale value Macs have. When you buy a Mac, you're making an investment. When it comes time to buy a new computer, you can easily sell the old one and get a pretty substantial amount of the money back. (I could easily still get $500 for my Graphite iBook that is over 3 years old.) So yes, I will give you that they can be expensive, though part for part, not that far off from PC's, but you'll also get a lot more for them when you sell them, than you would a PC.

[Powerbook G5]

I've been a PC user for most of my life and I am really well educated on computers on both platforms, but in my experience with the Windows world, I can't say I know many at all who actually like Windows or Microsoft in general. Just about everyone thinks/realizes/says that Windows sucks. For the 5 years I have been using Macs, I have hardly heard anyone say that "Mac OS sucks". It would take me half the day to get my PC working properly after a re-install, yet it can take me little more than a half hour to re-install Mac OS and be chatting, checking email, and using the internet on my network from a clean install. I switched because it was too big of a headache using my PC. It was too big of a headache after starting a PC business with my friend and both building and repairing PCs all day long only to have to go home to one. I went from loving computers to wishing I could just die from being so frustrated and tired of messing with Windows and DOS and everything else all the time. I seriously hated computers and hated life for a good two years before I just bought a PowerBook, trashed my PC, and slowly started to back out of that job. I still have to fix/upgrade/mess with Windows, but at least I can always open up my PowerBook and have a little breath of fresh air with my Mac. I would love for my parents to switch, too, but it was just too expensive getting an iMac for them compared to the Dell they ended up with. They would have had an iMac, too, but I told them they'd be better off with the Dell. Sure, it has been a PITA now and then, but I am not going to force them to switch if they can email and browse the internet with XP reasonably well.

It boils down to this: I have experience with both and I don't hate PCs, I am just finished with them. Sure, I could still get my homework done on a Dell just as easily as I can with my Apple, but I just love computers again and that is all thanks to my Mac. I don't tell other PC users that they suck or that they are idiots for using Windows. I just wish I didn't get told the same thing for using a Mac. It makes me want to scream at the guys at CompUSA sometimes whenever they have the nerve to attack my "computing character" just because I am in the Mac section looking for something. Most Mac users are intelligent and nice people. I don't see any being jackasses to PC users, so I just feel we should deserve the same respect.

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by Mav451
Um, considering there's next to little or 1% from the PC side on this forum, a crossplatform dicussion on this forum would be, for the most part Mac-only.

Actually, according a MR poll a few weeks ago about 7% of the people who voted in the poll used a version of windows as their primary OS. And I'm sure that an even greater number of members here have to use PCs on a daily basis. Of course this is a Mac site so the people here are going to generally favor Macs over PC's but, like I said before, many Mac users were once, or still are PC users, so you are generally going to get a more informed discussion about PCs on a Mac board than Macs on a PC board.

Hell, I don't even own a Mac for personal use. All of my typical computer needs are serviced by my nearly 3 year old Win2k box. I've used XP but I haven't found a compelling reason to upgrade to it.


Lethal

[patrick0brien]

-Mav451

The best thing you can do in your chosen education and career path is to use both - actively, side by side, so that you can have a useful breadth of knowledge that can give you the edge in your career.

Many of us here use both - myself included.

The question then that could be asked, is why do I prefer Macs - there's got to be some reason, these things aren't cheap!

This is more of a journey, than a "Yep, I solved it" sort of thing.

I really do encourage you to do it.

Secondly, I would like to ask you to work on you diplomacy a bit, you had very good points, and I agree with many, but those were obscured by emotionally charged language that most will focus on, rather than the kernels of wisdom buried beneath.

[dcb]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I went from loving computers to wishing I could just die from being so frustrated and tired of messing with Windows and DOS and everything else all the time. I seriously hated computers and hated life for a good two years before I just bought a PowerBook...

Are you taking creative writing 101 or something or did a computer really make you hate life? You either need a tutor or a shrink!

It would take me half the day to get my PC working properly after a re-install, yet it can take me little more than a half hour to re-install Mac OS and be chatting, checking email, and using the internet on my network from a clean install....

What am i doing wrong on my iBook where it takes me well over an hour to do a clean install? AND it does NOT take half a day to install windows or xp and have it running correctly.

[solvs]

Originally posted by dcb
What am i doing wrong on my iBook where it takes me well over an hour to do a clean install? AND it does NOT take half a day to install windows or xp and have it running correctly.

I think you got a bad iBook.

It only took me about an hour each to have both my Mom's iBook and my friend's iMac up and running. And that was just because I wanted them both to have clean installs (Mom's iBook was second hand). When I installed OS 10.2 on Mom's old school 400 MHz G3 (literally, it was for her school, that's why she got the iBook. Her new Sony XP at home had SO many issues. My stepdad just had to get a PC) it was so quick and painless. My sister hasn't had a single problem with her dual 867 G4 she bought last year.

Don't get me started on my various Windows issues, install and otherwise. Your experiances may vary, but I have been starting to hate Windows more and more over the years. Sure it's just a tool, but a tool I want to just work when it should. I've used XP. A lot. I have to use it at work, too. That's why my home PC is Win2000. It still sucks, but it's better than 98SE or ME.

I would never say any Windows OS is better than 10.2 (and .3, from what I've seen). No matter how much you hack the heck out of it. Macs aren't perfect, but yeah, we think it's better than Windows. That's why we come here!

That, and because I'm actually excited about what's coming next for Apple. PCs, too, hardware is hardware. But to a lesser extent. Longhorn anyone?

Edit: of course, I haven't used 10.2.8 yet. No one ever said Apple was perfect. ;)

[evilsprung]

Hahah all these posts are too funny. Man, I'm surprised a good amount of mac bigots haven't replied to this post.

Geez its posts like these that should just be banned from these forums. All it does is totally bait to all the bitter mac bigots and whatnot. Seriously is there a need to continue to debate this topic. I mean wtf? What the hell are you gonna prove or rather what is the point of all of it? Hasn't topics like these been debated to death? And its not like PC users are gonna read this. If anything, in my opinion, these kinds of threads just sound like a lot griping,sharing of anecdotal evidence and/or mac bigotry.

Heh just end this thread already, its freakin lame.

[Brundlefly]

I have used both OS platforms all my digital life since '84 when I received my first macintosh. and '93 my first 386.

I switched fully to PC after some major problems with a nasty mac dealer and a buggy os9 pismo pboook in 1999, but very soon after OS X started to really taunt me with big hopes and dreams....I made the jump to my first ibook 600 last oct.....then in feb a faster ibook 800, and then two months ago I just had to get the 17 inch pbook and I havent touched my desktop 2.66 P4 since....

I really can't believe the PC people who sit there and say that their computers never crash, I watch it daily at the office I work at....and I watch them cntl alt delete and begin closing processes in the hope to recover the one file they have been working on for 30 mins without saving....they waste the same 30 mins finding out they have lost the OS and their application, reboot and then spend another 30 mins rebuilding the file....I have lived it...its the PC world....

To be honest the PC I have is somewhat faster at many things, flash and general windows tasks seem quicker, but the important stuff, like rasterizing a heavily gradiated illustrator file into photoshop at 300 dpi, into a 400 meg billboard file, dang it if the mac doesn't just blow the doors off the PC, both sporting 1 gig ddr 333 ram....I would say the PC will complete the task 90% of the time in about 7-10 minutes, also while still working away, it's telling me photoshop has stopped responding....although it hasnt, but windozes doesnt know this, and this is if I am running ONLY photoshop, running other apps such as Outlook Express can botch the whole process and lead to the system hangups I spoke of earlier.

So lets add it up...30 mins in OS saving attempts, 30 mins rebuilding the file, 1 minute reboot, 12 minute breakdown, what time savings is there in this?....where as the mac just plogs along, email, icq, illustrator, itunes, photoshop, indesign all open, I am not worried about any checking of the email as photoshop plugs out the rasterized illustrator 400 meg file, I just know it will be complete, it always is....and my pbook does it in under 2 minutes.....thats 4X faster.....that's is considerable....especially when the client is making 10 changes at the last minute before we go to print....isn't it?

I will never go back

[notjustjay]

Originally posted by Brundlefly


I really can't believe the PC people who sit there and say that their computers never crash, I watch it daily at the office I work at....and I watch them cntl alt delete and begin closing processes in the hope to recover the one file they have been working on for 30 mins without saving....they waste the same 30 mins finding out they have lost the OS and their application, reboot and then spend another 30 mins rebuilding the file....I have lived it...its the PC world....


72 hours into my honeymoon with my new 12" PB, I'm finding my experience with it not entirely dissimilar. :P I've had to reboot this thing several times to clear out "glitchiness" like random spinning beach balls, likely to do with internet/network connectivity (and one OS update) and yesterday I discovered my menu bar clock/icon area had frozen, with the spinning beach ball, and that threw ME out of whack because the time had frozen too so I had no clue what time it ACTUALLY was... and ended up being really late.

Yesterday I spent altogether too much time futzing between Terminal, Print Center, and Safari opened up to a help page on how to get this thing connected and printing to a Windows printer. Still can't get it going. Bah.

Now I just tried to download the Zinio version of MacWorld as per my special offer from Apple, but the thing hangs every time I try and I have to force quit. Will a reboot fix it? Hmm.

See? Not THAT different from Windows XP. I think it's better for sure, but still not perfect.

(Not TRYING to be negative. I just dropped thousands of dollars on this machine for no reason other than "I'll try switching", so I certainly WANT this to be a great experience.)

[Powerbook G5]

Originally posted by dcb
Are you taking creative writing 101 or something or did a computer really make you hate life? You either need a tutor or a shrink!



What am i doing wrong on my iBook where it takes me well over an hour to do a clean install? AND it does NOT take half a day to install windows or xp and have it running correctly.

I'm not going to go out and kill myself, but it was really getting to me having to fix problems and do re-installs every day.

As far as Windows taking half the day sometimes to re-install and configure, I don't know what you are doing, either, but installing Windows, then installing all the drivers from all the different disks, then downloading updates, and having to manually search Windows itself for drivers it cannot automatically find, then having to adjust settings, then having to re-configure the network, then having to reinstall any extra patches that have been lost, etc, can take a long time. I only re-installed Mac OS 9 once in the years I have used it and it took 10 minutes, then another 20 to just reinstall programs and get an update installed. I did an install of OS X only once, too, but that only took around 20 minutes, and again, just another 20 minutes to do software update, install a few programs, and I was good to go.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I'm not going to go out and kill myself, but it was really getting to me having to fix problems and do re-installs every day.

As far as Windows taking half the day sometimes to re-install and configure, I don't know what you are doing, either, but installing Windows, then installing all the drivers from all the different disks, then downloading updates, and having to manually search Windows itself for drivers it cannot automatically find, then having to adjust settings, then having to re-configure the network, then having to reinstall any extra patches that have been lost, etc, can take a long time. I only re-installed Mac OS 9 once in the years I have used it and it took 10 minutes, then another 20 to just reinstall programs and get an update installed. I did an install of OS X only once, too, but that only took around 20 minutes, and again, just another 20 minutes to do software update, install a few programs, and I was good to go.

the pc needs you to answer more questions and go thru more menus on a reinstall

but even on a mac, which is easier, is a chore...reinstalling all the adobe titles and macromedia titles, games, etc...well, that takes time, too...but not as much time as it takes on a pc

[WolfJLupus]

The main reason I see people switch is because they want a stable OS/machine, so they can get their work done not work on computer (like other's have stated).

I started off on a Mac, I learned a lot just by going into the file system and looking around. I never had troubles like my PC friends did when trying to run a program or game. I didn't have to know which sound card I was running and all these settings when trying to run a game like they did. It was easy...

Eventually I started selling computers (PC's) to consumers, which made me learn more and more about them (I had a decient amount of experience already by messing with other people's PC's and fixing problems). From there I had many jobs fixing PC's (mostly still with family and friends - including in my until in the Army).

I've fixed PC's running win 3.1/95/98/2000/ME/XP, so I'm very familular with the PC line and OS troubles. I built my own PC as a hobby and it works fine (because I did a lot of research, which took a lot of time). I usually tell people NOT to build their own computers because they usualy will run into conflicts with hardware (as most of the computers I have fixed have been user built computers).

In fact my roommate just had a issue where he was forced to upgrade so I sold him my PC, because he couldn't downgrade his current PC to Win 98 from 2000 server due to hardware conflicts (the motherboard was designed around when 98 was out 2!). It the same problem over and over agian, some of which isn't really M$'s fault, but I find it interesting that some have posted linux works better with the same hardware, showing the incompetence of M$ and their products.

My roommate wanted to switch so bad after dealing with this problem with his PC, which consumed 6 days (even with one tech who came over and knew a hell of a lot about PC's and the underworking of the system), which is unacceptable, he has work to do.

My experiences show me that PC's are generally too much hassle and are really not worth the trouble.

I can understand why a PC user likes to have the feel of control as they tweak and find work arounds. It feels good solving problems and making things work, but for the average user, they JUST want and need it to work because they don't have time to waste and most just don't know much of anything about their computers.

It's not that Apple is perfect, they've screwed up and they will. There will always be troubles. The difference is that they move forward and the aim in which they take. They continue to prove the integrity they have. Problems will be fixed, they will eventually listen to the users and comply to their wishes, unlike M$, who would rather force you to comply to their will.

Anyhowl, I could have done a better job, but I have time constraints while I'm at work writing this. (I need to keep your wireless services up) ^..^
-wuff-

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by WolfJLupus
I usually tell people NOT to build their own computers because they usualy will run into conflicts with hardware (as most of the computers I have fixed have been user built computers).


-wuff-

building a computer, whether it's for yourself or at work or school, is a good thing to do for learning about computers in general...and it's fun

but it's no longer a way to save any considerable amount of money

the big pc makers, of which there are fewer now, because they weeded out the smaller ones, have so much leverage that they buy massive amount of hardware and components and get a great price on them...and then the big companies pass the savings on and to be competitive

right in the heart of silicon valley, i have access to a lot of stuff very cheap and of good quality, but because i am one person, i cannot get volume discounts

and then i walk into any major computer store that is a multinational corporation, and then i see the bargain rack computers which are at most, two months old, and then they turn around and mark the thing down more

how can i build a celeron machine for 299? or a pentium 4 for 399? and the machine has a large hard drive and tons of ddr ram...there is no way i can cut my costs in building a pc box and still get all the goods and have the machine have decent components

there are some small businesses that can build you a comparable machine, but you have the choice of things like case color, nvidia instead of ati or vice versa, and a deluxe larger hard drive but it will cost you a lot more if they build it...three hundred dollars more sometimes...and if you build it, and are somehow lucky enough to get all the right discounts at the right time, maybe you can save almost a hundred bucks...but then you have to research the hell out of every supplier on every solitary component and hope that they all have the deals around for long enough and the stock

unless you want to be a pc hobbyist or a tech, i agree, it's best not to build your own machine these days

[dcb]

Okay, lets say that windows released an update to XP and it all of a sudden caused an incessant clicking noise on your computer...and despite that fact, there is no fix...instead lets say that microsoft went ahead and released another update that made the entire OS crash. I could only imagine the uproar on this board. I can see the jokes, the laughing, the "I told you so"...right????? 10.2.6 - 10.2.8

Why don't you guys put apple under the same scrutiny. The truth is, you search for problems with MS and ignore any problem OSX may have...simply because it is Apple.

Solvs, your right...I look back and it realize that it was a bad iBook which has recently been replaced. But, I cannot see how it can be done in 1/2 hour.

Like I said, I like OSX, but it won't be a deciding factor in the purchase of my next computer.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by jefhatfield

unless you want to be a pc hobbyist or a tech, i agree, it's best not to build your own machine these days

and to add to that, some people like getting a desktop because they can "expand the componets"

but after getting an upgrade processor, an upgrade video card, and an upgrade sound card and you have made an older machine "up to date", it is actually cheaper to get the next model down the pike which has all those things already and a better, faster bus system so it can utilize those new faster components more efficiently

you can get a G4 processor upgrade card and put it into a G3 tower and update the video card and up the RAM...but now with ebay, you can get a used G4 for cheaper, for the same price...and possibly get a monitor to boot

i once considered putting a G4 processor card into my 604e powertower clone, a better video card, and up the ram to 1 gb...all for about $2500 us...or i could have bought a G4 with a gig of ram for about the same price...so it's pricing that is set up to basically make you and me buy a new machine

...and it's kind of wasteful since i bet the hairdryer, toaster, car, or pair of shoes you have last much longer than a G4 is designed to last in today's world:p

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by dcb
Okay, lets say that windows released an update to XP and it all of a sudden caused an incessant clicking noise on your computer...and despite that fact, there is no fix...instead lets say that microsoft went ahead and released another update that made the entire OS crash. I could only imagine the uproar on this board. I can see the jokes, the laughing, the "I told you so"...right?????

Why don't you guys put apple under the same scrutiny. The truth is, you search for problems with MS and ignore any problem OSX may have...simply because it is Apple.

Solvs, your right...I look back and it realize that it was a bad iBook which has recently been replaced. But, I cannot see how it can be done in 1/2 hour.

Like I said, I like OSX, but it won't be a deciding factor in the purchase of my next computer.

os x took forever to get out of the starting gate

and apple was very bad about convincing others to support it..maybe 5 percent market share dictates that...hehe

os x is almost there and i look forward to panther:D

[dcb]

Is panther going to be a free upgrade? 10.3?

[WolfJLupus]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
and to add to that, some people like getting a desktop because they can "expand the componets"

but after getting an upgrade processor, an upgrade video card, and an upgrade sound card and you have made an older machine "up to date", it is actually cheaper to get the next model down the pike which has all those things already and a better, faster bus system so it can utilize those new faster components more efficiently


This is the sort of point I use when people talk about how my mac (eMac) is not upgradeable. I tell them, usually by the time I want to upgrade or it's toasted, it's time for a new computer. I usually suggest people buy a low end model emachines (for winblows users) and if it works for more than 2 weeks it should be good. Once it dies or is too slow, or whatever, do the same agian. It ends up saving money and there's no hassles with hardware conflictions from new hardware.

I put my PC together just to learn more, because I have never done it before. I knew full well I might have problems, just like everyone else seems to, but so far the only a problem I've had is with the floppy drive (which I'm sure I just need to tweak settings in the bios - but I'm too lazy to fix it or rather busy with other projects - like my buisness ventures). It worked out well and cost me very little by shopping around through pricewatch.com. I made a workable $1000 system for about $600's. Which I only used for Kazaa and my guests (since most are still winblows users).

I bought the G5 1.8 Ghz because I knew this was a system I would use for at least 2 years (before buying a new computer) and could upgrade much more than the iMacs/eMacs. It was time to go high end and drool some... >;) and I was...

P.S. my mother has been usuing my performa 6360 for years and unfortunately still is... The CD and floppy bays don't work now, but she's still surfing the net with the biggest virus ever (AOL). I still own a performa 450 which has AOL 2.7 on it also and it also runs (not very good of course). - I need to buy my mom a new computer for Christmas. ^..^

[LimeLite]

Originally posted by dcb
Is panther going to be a free upgrade? 10.3?
Haha, here's to hoping! But almost definitely not. It will probably be $129. Or is this confirmed already?

[dcb]

I thought I read somewhere that it was gpoing to be a free upgrade...didn't think so that is why I asked

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by dcb
Okay, lets say that windows released an update to XP and it all of a sudden caused an incessant clicking noise on your computer...and despite that fact, there is no fix...instead lets say that microsoft went ahead and released another update that made the entire OS crash. I could only imagine the uproar on this board. I can see the jokes, the laughing, the "I told you so"...right????? 10.2.6 - 10.2.8

Why don't you guys put apple under the same scrutiny. The truth is, you search for problems with MS and ignore any problem OSX may have...simply because it is Apple.

Solvs, your right...I look back and it realize that it was a bad iBook which has recently been replaced. But, I cannot see how it can be done in 1/2 hour.

Like I said, I like OSX, but it won't be a deciding factor in the purchase of my next computer.

Geez, I think we the point that you have not had good luck so far w/yer iBook. You seem to think that your situation repesents the norm from Apple. In a previous post you wondered why some many people love OS X because you were having lots of issues w/it and yer iBook. Well, maybe that means that you have a lemon. If yer the only one having a specific problem, or series of problems, it's probably means there is something wrong w/your particular machine and not a general problem that effects all/most users.

The first 10.2.8 update was a screw up, pulled from the site, and fairly quickly replaced w/a revised version. Now if Apple had a history of releasing buggy updates there would probably more moaning and groaning. But sense they usually don't this mistake isn't met w/harsh criticizism. No product, or company, is 100% error free. But on an consistant basis Apple seems to put out less error prone products than MS does.


Lethal

[Rower_CPU]

Just a quick note on some of the earlier PC vs Mac discussion:

This is a Mac site. It is visited predominantly by Mac users. If you are expecting neutral debate on platform superiority I suggest you try Slashdot (http://slashdot.org) or ArsTechnica (http://arstechnica.com), neutral sites that are not targeted towards any one platform.

If you, as a Mac or PC user, come into a discussion and start throwing around derogatory/incorrect terms (peecee, MAC, bigot, zealot, etc) and make sweeping generalizations expect to get people pissed at you.

If you use neutral language and make clear solid points you'll be taken seriously.

[dcb]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
Geez, I think we the point that you have not had good luck so far w/yer iBook. You seem to think that your situation repesents the norm from Apple. In a previous post you wondered why some many people love OS X because you were having lots of issues w/it and yer iBook. Well, maybe that means that you have a lemon. If yer the only one having a specific problem, or series of problems, it's probably means there is something wrong w/your particular machine and not a general problem that effects all/most users.

The first 10.2.8 update was a screw up, pulled from the site, and fairly quickly replaced w/a revised version. Now if Apple had a history of releasing buggy updates there would probably more moaning and groaning. But sense they usually don't this mistake isn't met w/harsh criticizism. No product, or company, is 100% error free. But on an consistant basis Apple seems to put out less error prone products than MS does.


Lethal

Wait a second...its not just my iBook that has problems for one...but the point was that OSX upgrades were BAD and if the tables were turned - you and every other zealot would have a circle jerk over how much better OSX is because of that fact. You now I am right...but instead you want to be an apologist for apple. THE ONLY ARGUMENT YOU GUYS MAKE IS THAT NO COMPANY IS 100% ERROR FREE!!!!!!!!! If that is the fact then why don't you give microsoft a break. The attitude is that if it isn't apple then it sucks. THAT IS WHY APPLE ONLY HAS A TINY marketshare. Maybe things would be different if you put Apple under the same microscope.

The problems with 10.2.6 and 10.2.8 aren't limited to my iBook...it is a documented fact - I am not making up facts to prove a point like most people on this board.

And uh...the problems I faced with my iBook are not limited to me...just visit the Apple discussion board and see how many people have faced the same issues. And please don;t come back with the same tired argument that only people with proble,s post on their discussion boards...that is a whole other debate in itself.

[dcb]

If you use neutral language and make clear solid points you'll be taken seriously.

BS, BS, BS....if you don't follow the cult like doctrine prescribed on this board...you are open to being flamed and ganged up on.

[Powerbook G5]

Originally posted by dcb
Wait a second...its not just my iBook that has problems for one...but the point was that OSX upgrades were BAD and if the tables were turned - you and every other zealot would have a circle jerk over how much better OSX is because of that fact. You now I am right...but instead you want to be an apologist for apple. THE ONLY ARGUMENT YOU GUYS MAKE IS THAT NO COMPANY IS 100% ERROR FREE!!!!!!!!! If that is the fact then why don't you give microsoft a break. The attitude is that if it isn't apple then it sucks. THAT IS WHY APPLE ONLY HAS A TINY marketshare. Maybe things would be different if you put Apple under the same microscope.

The problems with 10.2.6 and 10.2.8 aren't limited to my iBook...it is a documented fact - I am not making up facts to prove a point like most people on this board.

And uh...the problems I faced with my iBook are not limited to me...just visit the Apple discussion board and see how many people have faced the same issues. And please don;t come back with the same tired argument that only people with proble,s post on their discussion boards...that is a whole other debate in itself.

Who has said that Apple is error free? I believe just about everyone has said that they are *not* error free, nor is anyone else...I'm confused...are you reading something I am not? :confused:

[LimeLite]

Originally posted by dcb
THAT IS WHY APPLE ONLY HAS A TINY marketshare.
Actually, the reason for Apple's tiny marketshare is more likely because of liscensing issues from the very beginning. Apple wanted to sell the hardware also, Miscrosoft sold just the OS and liscnensed it to different companies, getting a lot more exposure.

As far as the update, this was the single worst update that I can remember, and you know, it really wasn't that bad. It didn't effect any of the four computers I manage. And it was retracted pretty quickly, and fixed in a couple of days. That is pretty good turnaround. Now, I'm not excusing the mistake, I actually am pretty confused how it happened since you'd think testing would have caught a problem like this. But I don't see many people saying, oh, it's ok, it's Apple, let them make a mistake or two. I have, however, noticed a lot of people upset about it, as well they should be.

But I would still prefer a mistake like this than to be told, months after I started using an OS, that there was a serious security hole that was currently being exploited.

[LimeLite]

Originally posted by dcb
BS, BS, BS....if you don't follow the cult like doctrine prescribed on this board...you are open to being flamed and ganged up on.
You are adding nothing to this forum but hot-headed irrational anger. You're making broad generalizations that are pretty insulting. There might be some "zealots" but there are also a significant number of people who are down to Earth, and are not part of a mac "cult". No one gets flamed for opinions, they get flamed for stupid comments or blatant exaggerations or misinformation. Granted, there area couple of people here that will flame people the way you say, and that's unfortunate, but it's definitely not all of us.

i.e. if you were to make a thread talking about your new PC and how awesome it was, there might be a couple that say things along the lines of PCs suck, but there would also be a lot of people saying congrats on getting a good system.

[dcb]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Who has said that Apple is error free? I believe just about everyone has said that they are *not* error free, nor is anyone else...I'm confused...are you reading something I am not? :confused:

That is the only argument you have when apple errs...but when it is Microsoft or anything else that does not conform to your way of life...you attack, insult, lie, and go on the offensive. All i am saying is put apple under the same scrutiny, we will have a bigger marketshare...more software and even better perihpheals. Instead, apple screws up, and you guys become apologetics and attack microsoft after you say your 3 hail steves.

[LimeLite]

Originally posted by dcb
That is the only argument you have when apple errs...but when it is Microsoft or anything else that does not conform to your way of life...you attack, insult, lie, and go on the offensive. All i am saying is put apple under the same scrutiny, we will have a bigger marketshare...more software and even better perihpheals. Instead, apple screws up, and you guys become apologetics and attack microsoft after you say your 3 hail steves.
Obviously you're not a business major, because I don't think you can raise a companies market share by putting it under scrutiny. :confused:

And please, I'm sure if you looked at the amount of times Microsoft has screwed up to the amount of scrutiny they get compared to the amount of times Apple has screwed up to their amount of scrutiny, I bet you anything the scrutiny Microsoft gets in this forum isn't even as much as they deserve. I can't readily remember reading a thread on here that talked specifically about how Microsoft screwed up and update or something of that nature.

Maybe you're the one that's attacking, insulting, lying, and going on the offensive?

[Lancetx]

Originally posted by dcb
That is the only argument you have when apple errs...but when it is Microsoft or anything else that does not conform to your way of life...you attack, insult, lie, and go on the offensive. All i am saying is put apple under the same scrutiny, we will have a bigger marketshare...more software and even better perihpheals. Instead, apple screws up, and you guys become apologetics and attack microsoft after you say your 3 hail steves.

Ah, why don't you buy one of those Liebermann systems, that should make you happy. You should get one free anyway as passionately as you've defended them around here. :D

[Daveman Deluxe]

Originally posted by LimeLite
As far as the update, this was the single worst update that I can remember, and you know, it really wasn't that bad.

What about 7.5.2?

[LimeLite]

Originally posted by Daveman Deluxe
What about 7.5.2?
I said "that I can remember". That would have been 6 years ago, and though I still used a Mac at that time, I wasn't nearly as involved in everything going on. What did that update do?

[Powerbook G5]

Originally posted by dcb
That is the only argument you have when apple errs...but when it is Microsoft or anything else that does not conform to your way of life...you attack, insult, lie, and go on the offensive. All i am saying is put apple under the same scrutiny, we will have a bigger marketshare...more software and even better perihpheals. Instead, apple screws up, and you guys become apologetics and attack microsoft after you say your 3 hail steves.

When have I ever said Apple is perfect? I never have...I don't see anyone else saying so, either. It seems like you are putting words into our mouths and then getting upset and calling people names. I never once insulted you, so why are you doing the one thing you are complaining that "we" do?

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by dcb
Wait a second...its not just my iBook that has problems for one...but the point was that OSX upgrades were BAD and if the tables were turned - you and every other zealot would have a circle jerk over how much better OSX is because of that fact. You now I am right...but instead you want to be an apologist for apple. THE ONLY ARGUMENT YOU GUYS MAKE IS THAT NO COMPANY IS 100% ERROR FREE!!!!!!!!! If that is the fact then why don't you give microsoft a break. The attitude is that if it isn't apple then it sucks. THAT IS WHY APPLE ONLY HAS A TINY marketshare. Maybe things would be different if you put Apple under the same microscope.

The problems with 10.2.6 and 10.2.8 aren't limited to my iBook...it is a documented fact - I am not making up facts to prove a point like most people on this board.

And uh...the problems I faced with my iBook are not limited to me...just visit the Apple discussion board and see how many people have faced the same issues. And please don;t come back with the same tired argument that only people with proble,s post on their discussion boards...that is a whole other debate in itself.

Yes, I am a zealot. :rolleyes:

I never said the 10.2.8 caused problems for your iBook only. I said it was a screwed up update that got pulled, revised, and put back up in a timely manor. You want to know why no one (not even die-hard PC fans) cuts MS any slack? It's because they consistantly release barely passible software (another point I made in my previous post that you qouted).

And, when it comes to how yer machine is running, only the people w/problems are going to post. Have you ever seen anyone post, in a *help fourm* no less (i.e. the apple ibook boards), "Hey, my machine is running fine." If everyone who's machine was running fine posted just to say, "all is well" I guarentee you that the number of "all is well" would far out number the people who are having problems. If you visited a local hospital would you come to the conclusion that most of the people in your area are injured/sick because you find more unhealthy people in the hospital than healthy people?


Lethal

[beefcake]

Am I the only one here who sees these forums as a place to discuss news within the mac world and not fight wars between the mac and pc world? I'm getting really tired of agitated anti-mac posters coming in here and telling me why I'm wrong. Please grow up and let me discuss my computer in peace.

As for dcb's claim that the only argument Mac "zealots" use for a bad OS update is that Apple can't be perfect, is it possible that these people are speaking the truth? Apple drives me nuts sometimes, mostly because of the cost of things, but for the most part I have no problems with OS X at all. I've used windows daily for the past 9 years, from 3.1 to XP and I could make machines run like demons with some work, but now that I've left home my less computer-literate family is using the computer. HEADACHE! Every day for 3 weeks they were calling me asking me to fix problems, and I had even done a fresh install of windows before leaving.

OS X isn't perfect, but I can honestly say after 2 months of use, OS X embarasses Windows.

[dcb]

Please let me try to explain myself:

1. I am an Apple owner; there is a reason for that.

2. I realize that I make some overly "harsh" posts...but it isn't because I hate Apple or anything like that. The truth is, I believe that the platform that I chose = OSX is a good platform; nonetheless, I believe that Apple as a company and the produvts they sell could be better. I believe that "zealotry" only hurts the potential of Apple. But by saying that, I am immediatley labled a troll. I HATE the fact that when I disagree with certain individuals, it becomes a personal issue. And I realize I am guilty of the same as well. I just don't think that the "discussions" are fair in any way shape or form. I think that many of you tell half truths and hyberbolize any facts.

3. Microsoft, despite it;s shortcomings is/ was a major player in the development in our world today. Without the "Evil Empore" as you guys put it, computing would not be the same! Do you know why? It is because they have been put under EXTREME scrutiny and they respond. We call Apple innovative...perhaps that is true if we are discussing design. But the true innovation has come from Mr. Gates and the PC world. The G5 is catching up, not surpassing anything in the PC world.

As for your comment about the apple forums mr wolf...you are wrong and I believe I asked that you don't come back with that same tired argument about the apple discussion boards - it is a whole other debate in itself.

Mr. Powerbook...I do apologize, but I am going to bluntly say that I really think you are the most guilty when it comes to stretching the truth when it comes to anything Apple! An d to be honest, you are the catalyst for my flames...some of the things you say are totally illogical and full of emotion. Nonetheless, I appreciate that. If I had a team of any sort, you would be the first that I call.

And as for the person who said that I am a Go-L guy...get over it. They are a real company with machines that rival apples so called innovation.

[Powerbook G5]

Originally posted by dcb
Please let me try to explain myself:

1. I am an Apple owner; there is a reason for that.

2. I realize that I make some overly "harsh" posts...but it isn't because I hate Apple or anything like that. The truth is, I believe that the platform that I chose = OSX is a good platform; nonetheless, I believe that Apple as a company and the produvts they sell could be better. I believe that "zealotry" only hurts the potential of Apple. But by saying that, I am immediatley labled a troll. I HATE the fact that when I disagree with certain individuals, it becomes a personal issue. And I realize I am guilty of the same as well. I just don't think that the "discussions" are fair in any way shape or form. I think that many of you tell half truths and hyberbolize any facts.

3. Microsoft, despite it;s shortcomings is/ was a major player in the development in our world today. Without the "Evil Empore" as you guys put it, computing would not be the same! Do you know why? It is because they have been put under EXTREME scrutiny and they respond. We call Apple innovative...perhaps that is true if we are discussing design. But the true innovation has come from Mr. Gates and the PC world. The G5 is catching up, not surpassing anything in the PC world.

As for your comment about the apple forums mr wolf...you are wrong and I believe I asked that you don't come back with that same tired argument about the apple discussion boards - it is a whole other debate in itself.

Mr. Powerbook...I do apologize, but I am going to bluntly say that I really think you are the most guilty when it comes to stretching the truth when it comes to anything Apple! An d to be honest, you are the catalyst for my flames...some of the things you say are totally illogical and full of emotion. Nonetheless, I appreciate that. If I had a team of any sort, you would be the first that I call.

And as for the person who said that I am a Go-L guy...get over it. They are a real company with machines that rival apples so called innovation.

Instead of attacking me with blanketed insults, why not tell me exactly what I have said that is so illogical and "stretching" the truth? You keep insisting I say things I never say and then say I am the reason you are attacking our forums.

[dcb]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Instead of attacking me with blanketed insults, why not tell me exactly what I have said that is so illogical and "stretching" the truth? You keep insisting I say things I never say and then say I am the reason you are attacking our forums.

Can I PM U instead of bringing it out in this forum. I have already erred myself and I apologize....Just not cool on my part!

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by dcb
BS, BS, BS....if you don't follow the cult like doctrine prescribed on this board...you are open to being flamed and ganged up on.

There is no "doctrine prescribed on this board". The site's owner and we moderators are as fair and impartial as can be.

I suggest you check out some other Mac boards before condemning this one.

[Powerbook G5]

Originally posted by dcb
Can I PM U instead of bringing it out in this forum. I have already erred myself and I apologize....Just not cool on my part!

Go ahead.

[Daveman Deluxe]

Originally posted by LimeLite
I said "that I can remember". That would have been 6 years ago, and though I still used a Mac at that time, I wasn't nearly as involved in everything going on. What did that update do?

I meant 7.5.4, sorry. Just after limited, prerelease distribution of 7.5.4 began--and only hours before its official public release--a glaring bug was found that created problems with any 5400 and 6400 models. The day after, 7.5.5 was released.

7.5.2 was buggy in its own right, mostly problems with Open Transport.

dcb: I agree with LethalWolfe about Apple's own help forums--why would somebody post on a help forum just to let everybody know the computer is fine? It's a HELP forum.

There are certainly problems with some of Apple's products. iBook logic board issues come to mind (it's not that they happen, it's that they'll happen five or six times to the same computer). In that particular case, I think a combination of more rigorous pre-market testing is required, along with a more aggressive lemon replacement policy.

I suspect the real reason most Windows users don't switch is that those who aren't in the know don't even know there is another OS out there. Those that are in the know often are PC zealots who are misinformed, deny the truth, or--perhaps worse--follow Intel and Microsoft like sheep. The few in the middle (and they ARE few) choose to switch or not to switch based on their needs.

If there's one thing I know about Macintosh users, it's that they demand satisfaction. Many of us would stand by our Macs until the last breath, but that rarely equates to the irrational belief that Apple can do no wrong (though there are a few out there).

[dcb]

damnit daveman....that was a very good response and I am almost speechless. Nontheless, I will reiterate once again that I will not discuss the Apple discussion forums, it is a whole different debate! (Have you ever taken statistics)

Nonetheless, you call PC zealots sheep...my argument is that Apple lemmings are just as (worst in my opinion) bad as pc zealots. U say that apple owners demand more...I disagree. apple owners simply demand an excuse to bash PC's. They don't accept any fault with apple.

As a matter of fact, you mentioned logic boards....you bring that up...the argument here is - Just because u have logic board problems doesn;t mean that others have it too. Your experience is not my experience.


That is BS. Apple owners turn the blind eye to apple and focus on telling the world how bad and evil microsoft is

[Powerbook G5]

Originally posted by dcb
damnit daveman....that was a very good response and I am almost speechless. Nontheless, I will reiterate once again that I will not discuss the Apple discussion forums, it is a whole different debate! (Have you ever taken statistics)

Nonetheless, you call PC zealots sheep...my argument is that Apple lemmings are just as (worst in my opinion) bad as pc zealots. U say that apple owners demand more...I disagree. apple owners simply demand an excuse to bash PC's. They don't accept any fault with apple.

As a matter of fact, you mentioned logic boards....you bring that up...the argument here is - Just because u have logic board problems doesn;t mean that others have it too. Your experience is not my experience.


That is BS. Apple owners turn the blind eye to apple and focus on telling the world how bad and evil microsoft is

Most Apple owners I know are pretty critical of Apple and a few I know call Apple up or go to their feedback page and tell them exactly how they feel when they think Apple did something to screw them...I know I was pissed when my PowerBook G3 came to me with a defect and I did not just give them a benefit of the doubt, I told them I wanted a new one because I refuse to spend hard earned money on a defective product, be it Microsoft or Apple.

[dcb]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Most Apple owners I know are pretty critical of Apple and a few I know call Apple up or go to their feedback page and tell them exactly how they feel when they think Apple did something to screw them...I know I was pissed when my PowerBook G3 came to me with a defect and I did not just give them a benefit of the doubt, I told them I wanted a new one because I refuse to spend hard earned money on a defective product, be it Microsoft or Apple.

I have not seen one person on this board be critical of apple unless they are called out. Usually, if someone "complains" about apple they are flamed and never come back!

[Powerbook G5]

Originally posted by dcb
I have not seen one person on this board be critical of apple unless they are called out. Usually, if someone "complains" about apple they are flamed and never come back!

I've seen plenty of posts on this site of people saying Apple screwed up or there is a glitch with such and such a program. Just look at all the 10.2.8 threads, or all the complaints when Apple dropped L3 from the new PowerBooks, or when they found out the iMacs didn't have the 7457 G4, etc. Not many people just say "But it's Apple, so I am happy", they say "But why didn't Apple do this better?"

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by dcb
I have not seen one person on this board be critical of apple unless they are called out. Usually, if someone "complains" about apple they are flamed and never come back!

You have no basis for making claims like that after only having been here 2 months.

Persist and you'll leave no doubt about whether you're trolling or not.

[revenuee]

Originally posted by dcb
(Have you ever taken statistics)




What is your point about stats?

Lets face it

it costs money to switch

You don't just need to buy hardware, but also software. Who cares if you can run all your files on a Mac if you don't have the software to support it

When i moved from a PC to Mac, i had to get new Mac versions of my Software - Photoshop, Illustrator, Switched to FCP from Premiere, and Mac Office. That adds up, and lets face it, not everyone can shell out that much money all at once.

And we can sit here calling eachother zealots, lemmings, sheep, trolls, or anyother derogitory description we can come up with, but i think we just get farther away from the issue - Switching Costs money - not everyone has it to throw around.

[dcb]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
You have no basis for making claims like that after only having been here 2 months.

Persist and you'll leave no doubt about whether you're trolling or not.

I know rower...if I disagree with you...you will ban me. That's a "fair and impartial" board. God forbid someone comes into OZ and disagree.

[Powerbook G5]

Originally posted by dcb
I know rower...if I disagree with you...you will ban me. That's a "fair and impartial" board. God forbid someone comes into OZ and disagree.

The moderators do not ban people for disagreeing, but ban people who flame and attack everyone else, making arguments that don't even hold up.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by dcb
I know rower...if I disagree with you...you will ban me. That's a "fair and impartial" board. God forbid someone comes into OZ and disagree.

People are banned for trolling, starting flamewars, and disobeying other forum rules (http://forums.macrumors.com/announcement.php?s=&forumid=4).

I suggest you read them.