Panther to be Released in Last Week of October [Archive]

MacRumors

Oct 6, 2003, 10:56 AM

Mac Rumors has received reliable confirmation that Panther will be launched during the last week of October with a corresponding in-store Apple event (similar to the Jaguar launch (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/08/20020825233849.shtml)).

Previous hints had noted that Apple was organizing (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/09/20030922162504.shtml) an Apple Store event for October 24th, 2003. Our most recent information, however, fails to provide the specific date for the launch and only pinpoints the last week of October.

Meanwhile, Apple continues work on Mac OS X and has reportedly shifted build numbers (7B86->7C) with the most recent known internal builds up to 7C02. (The shift from 7B to 7C likely reflects the completion of 10.3 and 7C builds would presumably be rolled into the next interim update - 10.3.1?)

Last week, there were reports (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/10/20031001164435.shtml) that Mac OS X 10.3 had gone Gold Master with build 7B85.

Mylstar

Oct 6, 2003, 11:01 AM

Excellent! I'll order my G5 then. Wohoo!:)

ShadowHunter

Oct 6, 2003, 11:03 AM

Woooohooooooo baby! Just what I've been waiting for!

I've been waiting since, what, WWDC, for Panther so I can switch? Yeah baby, yeah!!!!

yamabushi

Oct 6, 2003, 11:05 AM

I heard an unreliable rumor that Apple may include coupons for free copies of panther with systems sold just before the official release date. Any word on that?

Java

Oct 6, 2003, 11:13 AM

I'll be at the Apple Store for the event. Are they going to close the store and open it back up at a certain time like past openings (such as for the 3g iPod)?

hesitaliandad

Oct 6, 2003, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by yamabushi
I heard an unreliable rumor that Apple may include coupons for free copies of panther with systems sold just before the official release date. Any word on that?

that would be sweet. i just moments ago ordered my first mac. 15" powerbook. i am so excited i can hardly stand it.

JFreak

Oct 6, 2003, 11:17 AM

last time upgrades were free (well, 20usd) for all of us who bought osx one month before release. i would guess they have not changed that policy.

CaptainScarlet

Oct 6, 2003, 11:19 AM

Great!!!

But one thing is for sure is that the ability to add unsupported CD Burners has been busted since 7b74......Before those builds, it way easy to add a CD burners to the DeviceSupport.drofile file....:(

I might be missing something......

Maybe by the release date, it will be fixed!!! Or my CD burner will be supported!!

CS.........

pkradd

Oct 6, 2003, 11:24 AM

Reliable? We've been told that Panther went GM last Tuesday. Now we're told differently. Of course, those telling these stories are rumor sites. Apple has not said a word. Oh well. Up to date coupons come with every CPU that Apple sells. Chances are if you've bought a G5 you'll get Panther for free or $20 mail-in. For buyers of G4 computers, either new iMacs or Powerbooks, no chance I believe.

mxpiazza

Oct 6, 2003, 11:28 AM

i just got the new 12" with superdrive on the 2nd, (bought in-store), so here's to hoping that the one-month purchase before release of OSX will get me a $20 copy. probably not though. all i know is that the Cleveland apple store at Legacy Village in Lyndhurst is opening on the 24th, and it'll be one heck of an in store event! grand opening and panther!!

applekid

Oct 6, 2003, 11:29 AM

If you're getting this for Christmas, tell your friends and family you're getting a panther for the holidays! :)

Powerbook G5

Oct 6, 2003, 11:29 AM

Either way, I cannot wait for Panther. Even though my money is tight, with Educational discount, I cannot help but justify $70 to get it.

Freg3000

Oct 6, 2003, 11:32 AM

Good news. I can't wait. Here comes Panther!!! :)

arn

Oct 6, 2003, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by pkradd
Reliable? We've been told that Panther went GM last Tuesday. Now we're told differently. Of course, those telling these stories are rumor sites. Apple has not said a word.

Nope... nothing different.

1) This is our first reliable report. Try to find the word "reliable" in the other stories. :)

2) This doesn't mean that 85 isn't GM. 7C is probably 10.3.1. Just because software has gone GM doesn't mean that all work on the OS stops.

arn

adamfilip

Oct 6, 2003, 11:32 AM

my g5 is around 2 weeks old now.

cant wait for panther..
hope/wish i could get a coupon for it tho.

1adonis1

Oct 6, 2003, 11:33 AM

Cant wait for the faster user switching!!.

manzanita

Oct 6, 2003, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by adamfilip
my g5 is around 2 weeks old now.

cant wait for panther..
hope/wish i could get a coupon for it tho.

Check the papers that came with your G5 ... mine is about 2 weeks old too, and it came with the 3 usual generic coupons - with just 1,2,3 on them. Apple will probably tell you if you bought your computer after a certain date, or if you have a G5, or whatever algorithm they decide, then you can send in a coupon with proof of purchase.

Wonder Boy

Oct 6, 2003, 11:40 AM

I'll be the first to rain on everyone's pareade. I won't be getting panther until they release 10.3.1, even if that means gettting it at xmas. After the trouble im having with my ibook battery(decalred dead by apple people, and still no word on a replacment) the 10.2.8 trouble, and my friends logic board dying after 2 months, i cant justify getting something brand new right away. I can hear a lot of you now "you're crazy, panther will be great" and "you're stupid for waiting, dont you need expose?" the fact is is that i dont care. believe me i am always the first one into the apple pool, but i have gotten burned a couple times for doing so (my my first mac was replaced twice, and downloading 10.2.6 as soon as it came out). i dont mean to sound like some jaded lover, resenting anyone, but I think i will hold off until apple has proven to me the got their ***** together. BTW, im still waiting for my ipod periphs and 2 buttone mouse. :end rant:

adamfilip

Oct 6, 2003, 11:42 AM

HEY your Right!

i did find the green sheet of 3 coupons.
kinda odd sheet! it says OS X 10.2 coupons.. seems kinda odd.

hope your right!

seven5

Oct 6, 2003, 11:48 AM

Free updates will not be offered to anyone except those who have purchased a Mac AFTER they announce teh ship date.

That has been the case with everything....

NicoMan

Oct 6, 2003, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by pkradd
Now we're told differently.

Are we?

Of course, those telling these stories are rumor sites. Apple has not said a word.
That's a fair point. If indeed they are going to start selling Panther at the end of October, then we should soon be receiving confirmation from Apple, no?

NicoMan

Oct 6, 2003, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by NicoMan
Are we?

Mental note: read all the posts before reacting...

obeygiant

Oct 6, 2003, 11:53 AM

I'll bet you Roy Horn doesn't want a Panther for Christmas.

NicoMan

Oct 6, 2003, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by manzanita
Check the papers that came with your G5 ... mine is about 2 weeks old too, and it came with the 3 usual generic coupons - with just 1,2,3 on them. Apple will probably tell you if you bought your computer after a certain date, or if you have a G5, or whatever algorithm they decide, then you can send in a coupon with proof of purchase.
That's exactly how it should work, for all who are wondering.

One thing I'm not so sure about: I don't remember Apple saying that G5 owners would get a special upgrade path.
Anyone?

robotrenegade

Oct 6, 2003, 12:00 PM

Can't wait for 10.3. This update looks hot.

MrMacMan

Oct 6, 2003, 12:01 PM

Ah good news.

GM finally, though there still are a few bugs... CD burning anyone?

:(

NicoMan

Oct 6, 2003, 12:02 PM

baby duck monge

Oct 6, 2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by obeygiant
I'll bet you Roy Horn doesn't want a Panther for Christmas.

wow. so wrong...yet so funny. i hate things like that. here the man is in critical condition, and i'm laughing about him not wanting the next mac upgrade...

oh well. at least we know he might not be turned off from later updates since he has said many times "don't kill the cat."

NicoMan

Oct 6, 2003, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by MrMacman
Ah good news.

GM finally, though there still are a few bugs... CD burning anyone?

:(
Is it an issue on 7B85/6? I can't believe a bug like that would make it into the GM.

JoeRadar

Oct 6, 2003, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by pkradd
Reliable? We've been told that Panther went GM last Tuesday.
Besides the reliable item, even Golden Masters have been known to slip. Policy probably varies between companies, but a GM often means no changes unless someone identifies a showstopper bug (as opposed to all those simply annoying bugs) -- kind of like that 10.2.8 thing. In the end, you can often end up with multiple GMs. I guess the real GM is the one that goes out for duplication.

(PS. My machine froze when upgrading yesterday from 10.2.7 to 10.2.8. I let my monitor go to sleep; this seems to cause problems.)

Wonder Boy

Oct 6, 2003, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by NicoMan
You've got every right to be wary of a new OS. However, whether you buy it when it is released or a few months later won't make a difference: you still have to shell the dough. So you could buy it when it is released and have a go. And if you are not happy with it, revert to Jaguar until the new OS is good enough for you... (or, I guess, you could even partition your disk, couldn't you?)

Oh well...

very valid point. i guess i would relate this to the origianl X release. I used 10.0.0 at work, so i knew first hand that it was not stable enough (for me) to purchse. Actually when 10.1 came out, i still felt that it didnt warrent 130$. i still thought there could be improvements.

i think apple had grown and gotten better concerning fixing bugs and glitches then it was back when 10.0 was released. I will still buy panther, proabably at .3.1. i just dont think any harm or frustartion can come out of waiting. i dont NEED panther. i can make due withougt it. i just want something more stable than an initial release, no matter how solid people say it is.

dongmin

Oct 6, 2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by Macrumors
Meanwhile, Apple continues work on Mac OS X and has reportedly shifted build numbers (7B86->7C) with the most recent known internal builds up to 7C02. (The shift from 7B to 7C likely reflects the completion of 10.3 and 7C builds would presumably be rolled into the next interim update - 10.3.1?)

Need some clarification. I thought:

B85--> client
B86 --> server

Is there a separate client build that's also B86? No biggee. Just curious.

hayesk

Oct 6, 2003, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by NicoMan
That's exactly how it should work, for all who are wondering.

One thing I'm not so sure about: I don't remember Apple saying that G5 owners would get a special upgrade path.
Anyone?

No, they didn't. There seems to be a number of people who think all G5 owners should get a free upgrade. I don't know why they think that. Why do G5 owners deserve special treatment?

Apple's policy is typically 30 days and it should be the same for everyone.

Lancetx

Oct 6, 2003, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by hayesk
No, they didn't. There seems to be a number of people who think all G5 owners should get a free upgrade. I don't know why they think that. Why do G5 owners deserve special treatment?

Apple's policy is typically 30 days and it should be the same for everyone.

I agree. Any purchases on or after October 1st would be a logical beginning date, but until we hear from Apple officially it's all just speculation. However, if Panther is indeed coming the last week of this month, we should be hearing something within the next few days I would certainly think.

Moonlight

Oct 6, 2003, 12:24 PM

On the apple site, they have 10.2.8 available for download again, and a patch if you downloaded it previously..

AmigoMac

Oct 6, 2003, 12:25 PM

Of course it's really great to have such a superb release soon, It's also been a long time since apple told us about it and I tell my wife "If not this week, sure the next one" ... god! now she doesnt believe ;) ...

I got this from a shop near home... it's all I can show my friends about a Panther :(

Stella

Oct 6, 2003, 12:25 PM

Apple need to slow down with OSX releases. They cannot expect consumers to shell out $199 (Canadian) every year.

Please don't say that you don't have to upgrade because you do, really - unless you plan not to install any new software. New software will require 10.3...

I'm really looking forward to 10.3, it looks really good.

Please, ppl be realistic, just because Apple messed up with 10.2.8, doesn't mean OSX 10.3 will be a mess... 10.2.8 was a rare event.

sugarprobe

Oct 6, 2003, 12:25 PM

I just got my Dual G5 about 3 days ago and the store told me if they release pantherwithin the next 30 days the update should be free using the software coupons that came with the machine that say mac os x 10.2

bennetsaysargh

Oct 6, 2003, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by robotrenegade
Can't wait for 10.3. This update looks hot.
hot? like attractive?:p something odd to say about an OS;)

if you bought you powermac G5 when they were announced or just got it a few days ago, i doubt that you can get panther for free.it's just like me hoping that i can get panther for free since i bought my iMac 5 years ago:rolleyes:

also, most of the people, keywords there being most of the people, who can afford to buy a 2000 dollar+ computer probably don't have a lot of money woes.

you know i'll be at the palisades store for the event.:) also, i hope to have a good time:) maybe i can get there early and be first to buy panther!
My Checklist
1) Charge iPod
2)Find money to buy Panther
3)Get as much freebies as possible:p

cc bcc

Oct 6, 2003, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by Moonlight
On the apple site, they have 10.2.8 available for download again, and a patch if you downloaded it previously..

Yeah that was last friday ;)

achmafooma

Oct 6, 2003, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Stella
Apple need to slow down with OSX releases. They cannot expect consumers to shell out $199 (Canadian) every year.
Agreed! Each update has been worth the money (in my opinion), but the rapid-fire nature of the paid update cycle is a bit overkill.

I've said it before, I'll say it again -- .Mac should come with a subscription to Mac OS updates. If you're a member, you should always have access to the newest operating system.

Just put some DMG images on the iDisk, we can burn the install CDs ourselves!

I'm not a .Mac member, mind you, because I can't justify $100/year for things that I mostly already have. But if they threw in an OS subscription I'd be seriously considering it. If they threw in a Quicktime Pro key and Appleworks/iOffice/whatever on top of the OS, heck, for all of that and the assurance that I'd always have the newest versions... I'd gladly shell out $100/year, perhaps even $120 or $150.

Maybe we're being primed for that... get us to shell out $129/year for OS updates for a couple of years, and then say "Hey, you've all complained about the cost, well if you sign up with .Mac we'll include major OS updates right in there!" All of a sudden, .Mac looks like an incredible bargain for people like me who aren't too impressed with it now.

Boost the subscription numbers quite a bit, I would think.

rjeffreyproctor

Oct 6, 2003, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by obeygiant
I'll bet you Roy Horn doesn't want a Panther for Christmas.

that is so wrong on so many levels :)

bennetsaysargh

Oct 6, 2003, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by achmafooma
Just put some DMG images on the iDisk, we can burn the install CDs ourselves!

I'm not a .Mac member, mind you, because I can't justify $100/year for things that I mostly already have. But if they threw in an OS subscription I'd be seriously considering it. If they threw in a Quicktime Pro key and Appleworks/iOffice/whatever on top of the OS, heck, for all of that and the assurance that I'd always have the newest versions... I'd gladly shell out $100/year, perhaps even $120 or $150.

Maybe we're being primed for that... get us to shell out $129/year for OS updates for a couple of years, and then say "Hey, you've all complained about the cost, well if you sign up with .Mac we'll include major OS updates right in there!" All of a sudden, .Mac looks like an incredible bargain for people like me who aren't too impressed with it now.

Boost the subscription numbers quite a bit, I would think.

im sorry, but i seriously doubt that. it would make pirating the OS way easier. not only would the people with dial up be phased out, but all of the people might not have CDRW drives, like low end customers, who they are aiming .Mac at now.

CaptainScarlet

Oct 6, 2003, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by NicoMan
Is it an issue on 7B85/6? I can't believe a bug like that would make it into the GM.

I'm not sure if it's a bug or what...

But you were able to add your CD burner to the DeviceSupport.dropfile file, and you had yourself a working CD burner... But now they changed a few things, again, and when it's added to the file, it comes up as unsupported....

Check out xlr8yourmac.com

You can still use toast to burn CD's, but it was really nice using it from the Finder....

I'll have to play with it more....

Apple should improve Supported Devices when it comes to CD-Burners....the SM-352B from Samsung worked perfectly with eairler builds.....There is no reason for this drive not to be supported...

CS..........

macphoria

Oct 6, 2003, 12:44 PM

It looks like new iBook will ship with Panther.

djtet

Oct 6, 2003, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by sugarprobe
I just got my Dual G5 about 3 days ago and the store told me if they release pantherwithin the next 30 days the update should be free using the software coupons that came with the machine that say mac os x 10.2
I'm glad for all those people who might get the free/discounted upgrade with thier special mac os 10.2 coupons. I remember getting these with my old ibook even though I never used them, and never knew what they were for. However, I am a bit dissappointed that I bought a refurbished G4 DP 1.25 from the apple store (9/23) and didn't receive these coupons. I'm sure I didn't get them because the machine was refurbished, but I still shelled out a lot of cash. It would be a great plus if I did get a discount on the upgrade, but I'm really not that upset over it cause my new machine kicks ass!

CraigMiami

Oct 6, 2003, 12:50 PM

Please gawd just don't be $129. I love the new features, but continue to shake me down THAT much for every software release. Please please please, get it well under $100!.

bankshot

Oct 6, 2003, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by seven5
Free updates will not be offered to anyone except those who have purchased a Mac AFTER they announce teh ship date.

That has been the case with everything....

Exactly. People, I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but what seven5 said is exactly right. Until Apple announces the release date and the conditions under which they may offer free upgrades, nothing is certain. To assume that a purchase today will get a free update is foolishly optimistic. You may (probably will) be disappointed. Which is too bad, because I had to order some PowerBooks for work last Friday (should be here tomorrow), so I probably just missed the deadline. I tried to hold off and wait, but we absolutely had to have them this week.

Last year, they announced Jaguar 39 days before release and said at that time that people purchasing new Macs from then on would get free updates. So far nothing has been announced this year, so nothing can be assumed. If these rumors are indeed correct, then Apple has chosen to have a shorter time between announcement and release. Who knows why, or what the policy will be when they announce?

Those update coupons you get with any new Mac are not for Panther updates -- they are for updates of the shipped OS. It's just to get 10.2.x on CD if you can't download it via SoftwareUpdate.

That said, bring it on! :D I'll be preordering with educational discount for my home machines, and hopefully I can convince my work that Panther is a must upgrade for our new PowerBooks...

caveman_uk

Oct 6, 2003, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by Wonder Boy
I'll be the first to rain on everyone's pareade. I won't be getting panther until they release 10.3.1, even if that means gettting it at xmas. After the trouble im having with my ibook battery(decalred dead by apple people, and still no word on a replacment) the 10.2.8 trouble, and my friends logic board dying after 2 months, i cant justify getting something brand new right away. I can hear a lot of you now "you're crazy, panther will be great" and "you're stupid for waiting, dont you need expose?" the fact is is that i dont care. believe me i am always the first one into the apple pool, but i have gotten burned a couple times for doing so (my my first mac was replaced twice, and downloading 10.2.6 as soon as it came out). i dont mean to sound like some jaded lover, resenting anyone, but I think i will hold off until apple has proven to me the got their ***** together. BTW, im still waiting for my ipod periphs and 2 buttone mouse. :end rant:
It was funny in the other thread about 10.2.8 there are people going 'I won't risk 10.2.8 I'll go straight to Panther'...and how is that magically going to be assured of being anymore perfectly bug free than 10.2.8???? Having said that I'll probably get Panther before the .1 release. It's isn't Rev A hardware after all.

BTW, yes I installed 10.2.8 on both my macs and it is perfectly fine.:D

tutubibi

Oct 6, 2003, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by macphoria
It looks like new iBook will ship with Panther.

Maybe not, if it comes out tomorrow :) .
I think we will see some hardware update (iBook or eMac) before end of the month.
New machines may come preloaded with Panther even before official release.

Freg3000

Oct 6, 2003, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by CraigMiami
Please gawd just don't be $129. I love the new features, but continue to shake me down THAT much for every software release. Please please please, get it well under $100!.

I just watched the WWDC keynote (again.....I am so bored) and Steve said it will be $129. :( Sorry

rog

Oct 6, 2003, 01:06 PM

I just hope it's much faster than Jaguar and will make my iBook 800 fun to use instead of slow and annoying.

rjeffreyproctor

Oct 6, 2003, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by tutubibi
Maybe not, if it comes out tomorrow :) .
I think we will see some hardware update (iBook or eMac) before end of the month.
New machines may come preloaded with Panther even before official release.

The 17in iMac was released with Jaguar before it was released... so its very possible that panther will be loaded on any new hardware announced from here on. Woo Hoo!!!!

rjeffreyproctor

Oct 6, 2003, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by rog
I just hope it's much faster than Jaguar and will make my iBook 800 fun to use instead of slow and annoying.

Build 39 made my sister's ibook 500 very responsive. So chances are your iBook 800 will be faster... noticably!

hayesk

Oct 6, 2003, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by Stella
Please don't say that you don't have to upgrade because you do, really - unless you plan not to install any new software. New software will require 10.3...

Why do you think new software will require 10.3? Most software sold today requires 10.1.x or greater.

Freg3000

Oct 6, 2003, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by hayesk
Why do you think new software will require 10.3? Most software sold today requires 10.1.x or greater.

I'd say it is about half/half. iChat and iCal have only worked on 10.2 plus, as well as Sherlock 3. For third party developers, I think that Quark 6 only works on Jaguar, and smaller software makers, like the guy who makes Acquisition, says that support anything before 10.2 is like support OS 9.

Hopefully people follow Apple's lead with iChat AV-making it both 10.2 and 10.3 compatible.

pjkelnhofer

Oct 6, 2003, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by hayesk
Why do you think new software will require 10.3? Most software sold today requires 10.1.x or greater.

I know DVD Studio Pro requires 10.2.6 or higher. Of course, it also requires a 733 MHz G4 processor, which is why it is sitting in a box next to my 500 MHz G3 iMac, but that is another thread.

Vonnie

Oct 6, 2003, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by hayesk
Why do you think new software will require 10.3? Most software sold today requires 10.1.x or greater.

Because there have been many improvements for developers with Panther.

Some widgets such as the search field (upper right of safari, mail,..), switcher thingie (jaguar finder switch between column, list, icon from the toolbar). If you want those in your jaguar application, you have to custom write them. For a panther application, it's a simple drag & drop.
A developer that implements text searching (such as mail/itunes), will have to code less on panther than on jaguar.
A panther developer also has a generic controller class available, where a jaguar developer has to write one himself.

Overall, if a panther developer wants to remain compatible with 10.2 and even 10.1, will have to do more work than if he just supports 10.3.
If a developer makes a new piece of software, which he expects to be released in 14 months.. He will probably think "by then, most of my target audience will have atleast 10.3, some even 10.4. I'm gonna forget about <10.2, and just do 10.3.

wrldwzrd89

Oct 6, 2003, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by mxpiazza
<snip>
all i know is that the Cleveland apple store at Legacy Village in Lyndhurst is opening on the 24th, and it'll be one heck of an in store event! grand opening and panther!!

My thoughts EXACTLY! That store is MUCH nearer to me than the one in Columbus. I intend to go there and get a G5 with Panther after the store opens, maybe in early November 2003?

SeaFox

Oct 6, 2003, 01:57 PM

10/30 people. Panther will be released on 10/30. :D

It can't be released on the 24th because that isn't the last week of October. But 10/30 would make up for missing the 10/3 ship date.

It will be our halloween TRICK for Microsoft, and a TREAT for us. ;)

gregorypierce

Oct 6, 2003, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by NicoMan
Is it an issue on 7B85/6? I can't believe a bug like that would make it into the GM.

That bug is not likely to be alone in the GM, that's for certain.

cgmpowers

Oct 6, 2003, 01:59 PM

They can simply give out a 50% off coupon or something like that. I get coupons from Apple all the time on either apple store purchases, surveys or from the .Mac...I think I've had 5 this year so far!..

One for 50% off for OS X 10.3 wouldn't be a problem... After all, you can get Version Tracker Pro for a discount, why not an OS..

Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
im sorry, but i seriously doubt that. it would make pirating the OS way easier. not only would the people with dial up be phased out, but all of the people might not have CDRW drives, like low end customers, who they are aiming .Mac at now.

Wonder Boy

Oct 6, 2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by CraigMiami
Please gawd just don't be $129. I love the new features, but continue to shake me down THAT much for every software release. Please please please, get it well under $100!.

hahahahahaha. you must be new around the Apple scene;)

bennetsaysargh

Oct 6, 2003, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by cgmpowers
They can simply give out a 50% off coupon or something like that. I get coupons from Apple all the time on either apple store purchases, surveys or from the .Mac...I think I've had 5 this year so far!..

One for 50% off for OS X 10.3 wouldn't be a problem... After all, you can get Version Tracker Pro for a discount, why not an OS..

50% off is possible, but what achmafooma said was to give it in DMGs like ADC for free. that would not happen. discounts yes, free, no.

here's to hoping 10.4 will be a free update:) (like 10.1 was)

cr2sh

Oct 6, 2003, 02:29 PM

I'm really looking forward to 10.3 but I have to wonder.. once we get panther, there should also be a new version of imovie, idvd, iphoto, ical... all the iapps should get a remake.. do i have to shell out another $100 to get those iUpdates as well? Where does it stop?

This week I'm heading to Texas, maybe its a good time to start backing up data externally so when Panther is released I can format and fresh install.... I'd feel so much cleaner. :)

jZilla

Oct 6, 2003, 02:32 PM

I hope Panther kills the "nap" tweet/chirp and maybe sorts out the PSU buzz...

NicoMan

Oct 6, 2003, 02:39 PM

NicoMan

Oct 6, 2003, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by achmafooma
I've said it before, I'll say it again -- .Mac should come with a subscription to Mac OS updates. If you're a member, you should always have access to the newest operating system.

Just put some DMG images on the iDisk, we can burn the install CDs ourselves!

That's exactly how I feel. Even though $100 per year would probably be too 'low'. Even then you would have ppl complaining about "oh I don't need this, I don't need that, can you make a cheaper version for those who don't need those features, etc...".

QuiteSure

Oct 6, 2003, 02:52 PM

I seem to remember that when Jag was sold, there was an Apple instore event where all computers were 10% off. Is there any mention of this happening with Panther?

NicoMan

Oct 6, 2003, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by pjkelnhofer
I know DVD Studio Pro requires 10.2.6 or higher. Of course, it also requires a 733 MHz G4 processor, which is why it is sitting in a box next to my 500 MHz G3 iMac, but that is another thread.
Are you planning on buying a new computer? If not I'm sure the guys at MacBidouille (http://www.macbidouille.com) (or HardMac (http://www.hardmac.com) for the english version) might have a workaround for you to be able to use on your iMac. That being said, it will probably be reaaaaal slow...

cr2sh

Oct 6, 2003, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Brent Turbo
Time to fire up xxxxxxx!

Nice... personally there's nothing I love more than stealing from a company that makes my life easier, more enjoyable, and such cool little toys. Sometimes I try to think of ways to fit powerbooks down the front of my pants so I can waddle out of the Apple Store without rising any eyebrows (I typically explain that "I just REALLY, REALLY like Apple."). :rolleyes:

Rincewind42

Oct 6, 2003, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by cr2sh
I'm really looking forward to 10.3 but I have to wonder.. once we get panther, there should also be a new version of imovie, idvd, iphoto, ical... all the iapps should get a remake.. do i have to shell out another $100 to get those iUpdates as well? Where does it stop?

Apple has always shipped the most recent version of it's iApps with OS releases. And regardless, you can get free updates to everything but iDVD online anyway (which, btw, is due to the fact that it takes up over 3/4 Gig of disk space uncompressed - damn...)

Can't comment on if Panther will ship with iDVD however, no clue on that one.

Rincewind42

Oct 6, 2003, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by Stella
Apple need to slow down with OSX releases. They cannot expect consumers to shell out $199 (Canadian) every year.

Please don't say that you don't have to upgrade because you do, really - unless you plan not to install any new software. New software will require 10.3...

I'm really looking forward to 10.3, it looks really good.

Please, ppl be realistic, just because Apple messed up with 10.2.8, doesn't mean OSX 10.3 will be a mess... 10.2.8 was a rare event.

You realize that Apple has been doing yearly (paid) releases since Mac OS 8.0 right? Granted the OS was US$30 cheaper then (CAN$50?) then, but regardless it was still a once a year deal. The only difference between now and then was that we used to get .1 updates at the half year and now we get .0.1 updates throughout the year.

JoeRadar

Oct 6, 2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by hayesk
Why do you think new software will require 10.3? Most software sold today requires 10.1.x or greater.
At this year's WWDC most of the new gee-wiz stuff was for 10.3 only.

My concern is that by making each annual upgrade a $130 event, Apple is fragmenting the consumer market.

If you are a developer and want to use a new 10.3 widget (e.g., search), then you have to estimate what percent of users will have 10.3 in n months time when you release your product.

To say Apple has X% of the market is misleading. As a developer you have to ask, what percent of the market can run the software if I use features A, B, and C?

Oh well... I am ready to jump on 10.3 ;)

jenkij

Oct 6, 2003, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by seven5
Free updates will not be offered to anyone except those who have purchased a Mac AFTER they announce teh ship date.

That has been the case with everything....

Oh Really? I guess the upgrade I got to OSX when they released it (after I purchased a mac with 9 on it) didn't count? Apple has historically allowed you to upgrade software for $19.95 (to cover shipping and handling) if they release a new version within 90 days, that's what the coupons used to be for.

Phil Of Mac

Oct 6, 2003, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by seven5
Free updates will not be offered to anyone except those who have purchased a Mac AFTER they announce teh ship date.

That has been the case with everything....

Someone hasn't been paying attention.

If you buy a Mac after the ship date, it gets the new OS preinstalled.

If you buy a new Mac within 30 days of the ship date. you get the new OS for $20.

That has been true for a long, long time.

Originally posted by Stella
Apple need to slow down with OSX releases. They cannot expect consumers to shell out $199 (Canadian) every year.

Please don't say that you don't have to upgrade because you do, really - unless you plan not to install any new software. New software will require 10.3...

You could keep using your old software. It'll still work. Heck, even most new software will work on old OS's, leaving you free to pretend that Apple doesn't release a new OS each year.

Originally posted by Freg3000
I'd say it is about half/half. iChat and iCal have only worked on 10.2 plus, as well as Sherlock 3. For third party developers, I think that Quark 6 only works on Jaguar, and smaller software makers, like the guy who makes Acquisition, says that support anything before 10.2 is like support OS 9.

iChat and iCal are a part of Jaguar. Quark is just Quark.

pjkelnhofer

Oct 6, 2003, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by NicoMan
Are you planning on buying a new computer? If not I'm sure the guys at MacBidouille (http://www.macbidouille.com) (or HardMac (http://www.hardmac.com) for the english version) might have a workaround for you to be able to use on your iMac. That being said, it will probably be reaaaaal slow...

Thanks a lot, I am saving my money towards a G5 next summer, and trying to get an eMac for the interim (I am waiting for either a speed bump/price drop or for the refurbs to appear in the Applestore).

Hopefully, 10.3 will make a speed difference on my old G3 and help me if that doesn't happen.

Fingers crossed.

rdowns

Oct 6, 2003, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by 1adonis1
Cant wait for the faster user switching!!.

Me too, way cool feature. Oh wait, I'm the only one who uses my Mac. Then again, I could assign a user account to each voice inside my head.

crazytom

Oct 6, 2003, 04:59 PM

Do you think it will be 'snappier'? :D

Actually, I'm pretty exhausted being on the bleeding edge of technology....I think I'll wait for a few Panther updates before I jump in....unless, I don't see anybody having problems with it!

blueBomber

Oct 6, 2003, 05:02 PM

I've got a good chunk of cash just waiting for an announced ship date for Panther before I buy my 12" PB. I was hoping to get my new laptop and os before Nov. 1st... but I'll take the laptop now if it means getting the OS for $20 later.

I just really want a new mac now...:(

Docrjm

Oct 6, 2003, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by crazytom
Do you think it will be 'snappier'? :D

Only if you forget to feed it!
:D

iPC

Oct 6, 2003, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by yamabushi
I heard an unreliable rumor that Apple may include coupons for free copies of panther with systems sold just before the official release date. Any word on that?
Yeah, I got the coupons with my refurb iBook. I hope the 30 days isn't up when 10.3 is released. That would suck.

Counterfit

Oct 6, 2003, 05:20 PM

I would love it if they had a "Ten for Teachers" thing again. Panther for free!

achmafooma

Oct 6, 2003, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
im sorry, but i seriously doubt that. it would make pirating the OS way easier. not only would the people with dial up be phased out, but all of the people might not have CDRW drives, like low end customers, who they are aiming .Mac at now.
I can't argue with the dial up part, but pretty much every newer mac has a CD-RW drive.

But here's an even better idea (to help deal with the piracy argument) -- if your computer is enabled on a .Mac account, major OS updates would show up in software update. This would give Apple a way to control (to some extent) where it ends up and cut down on the piracy problem you mentioned... You could download the PKG file like anything else, but they could rig it so it would only run on computers enabled with your .Mac account.

They could have a machine limit (kinda like the iTunes Music Store, you can enable a limited number of machines)... so if I had a .Mac account, I could enable it on my 2 computers (and then maybe 1 or 2 more, depending on where Apple sets the limit) and get some sequel to Panther automatically on those.

Although, seriously, piracy is just as easy now... I can make a DMG from a real CD in Disk Copy in about the time it would probably take to download the DMG from an iDisk.

I don't honestly think that Apple will do this. It would be really nice though. Even a major discount (50% has been mentioned) would be a nice alternative, and maybe more feasible technologically.

Heck, how about a hybrid plan -- get it for free if you are on broadband, pay a token fee ($20 shipping?) if you need/want the real CDs.

Mac Kiwi

Oct 6, 2003, 05:42 PM

What sort of speed increase with Panther do you guys think is realistic? For instance could Panther speed up Xbench and Cinebench results,as opposed to the build in the G5 currently.

Also what do you think the chances are of 3rd party graphics cards drivers being generic within Panther?.The reason I ask is I am waiting for 2 iiyama LCDs to arrive which I need a good card to power,but a 9800 Pro is just shy of a 1000 {NZ},if I can wait before buying one of those and possibly get a 3D card which is what I really need then I can save some cash in the long run :)

Thanx.

danielgrenell

Oct 6, 2003, 06:01 PM

it's soon, just not soon enough... :(

Choppaface

Oct 6, 2003, 06:30 PM

anybody know if they'll be using product activation? I'll buy one copy, but not four X_X

iHack

Oct 6, 2003, 06:48 PM

What's up with all the people suggesting M$-esque licensing schemes? Heck, even including the need for a active .Mac account!
One of the major reasons I switched was to get away from money grubbing M$ and their force-fed licensing, including all product activation. A software vendor has no business asking me about all the hardware I intend to use their binaries on. And I don't like to be treated like a criminal each time I put a new videocard or HDD in my computer. Granted, I hardly ever do such upgrades, but just the whole idea ...

Apple going down that road would push me to the slightly too geeky world of GNU/Linux, BSD or the likes. Or at least too geeky to be used as regular desktop OS for my office staff

M.

Abstract

Oct 6, 2003, 06:52 PM

Sweet geezus!!! I just got my 12" PB 2 days ago (on Saturday). This is sad. I couldn't hold off any longer. :(

Anyway, so what if your new computer came with the 3 coupons? ALL Macs come with those coupons, and so anybody who has bought a Mac with Jaguar could get Panther for a discount since they'll all say Mac OSX 10.2 on the front. This is why I don't think the coupons will work........everybody with Jaguar can get it or cheaper, which isn't exactly what Apple wants, right?

Maybe I misunderstand.......

And for the amount of $$$ I just paid for my machine, I hope to get Panther for free, or for $29. Paying any more is ridiculous for me at this point.

iHack

Oct 6, 2003, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by Choppaface
anybody know if they'll be using product activation? I'll buy one copy, but not four X_X

There are 5-packs for the home, giving you 5 licenses for $199,-. Seems like a good deal. And if you're going to benefit 4-fold, it seems like a fair thing to do to the people working for you to have that benefit.

M.

djtet

Oct 6, 2003, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by djtet
However, I am a bit dissappointed that I bought a refurbished G4 DP 1.25 from the apple store (9/23) and didn't receive these coupons.
Sorry all...I double checked and I actually Did receive these coupons! Now if they actually are good for a discount that would be great...and if not, oh well...all is still good!

Question...On Panther, it has a "font book" to manage your fonts. Will this be similar to a font manager such as Extensis Suitcase, Adobe Type Manager, etc.?

512ke

Oct 6, 2003, 07:40 PM

Stop!

Don't buy yet!

You gotta wait 'til Panther ships to buy your new Mac!

Try and remember the starting lineup of the 1996 Yankees! Count to 1,000 by 3's!

Prevent premature eMaculation!

Steven1621

Oct 6, 2003, 08:15 PM

score! apple in store events mean a new mac t shirt! oh ya!

Genie

Oct 6, 2003, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by NicoMan
That's exactly how it should work, for all who are wondering.

One thing I'm not so sure about: I don't remember Apple saying that G5 owners would get a special upgrade path.
Anyone?

http://www.geniesongs.com/genie/endorsements/apple/Genie-G5Computer50pix.jpg (http://www.geniesongs.com/genie/endorsements/apple/g5opening/index.htm)
They didn't promise.
Several of their reps strongly implied to me that it would be available under the "up to date" plan.

Rocketman

Oct 6, 2003, 08:33 PM

So how does this work? From the time the OS is gold master there must be ADC members and such going nuts installing fresh installs and update installs on every conceivable mac from the past to identify bugs in time for software update to handle it on first or second boot of the machine. All while 10.3 is pachaging and distributing.

But they missed the 10.2.8 bug on a range of G4 Powermacs so there must not be an organized hive like folding where certain people "call" certain macs and others fill in the holes.

But Apple misses alot considering they have the whole loop tied up. The thing must be very, very complex.

And how old of a machine can really use the update anyway? One would think they would INCREASE machine support over time.

And where is my headless / pizza box mac? (stackable micro cluster)

CraigMiami

Oct 6, 2003, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by Wonder Boy
hahahahahaha. you must be new around the Apple scene;)

My first computer was an Apple IIgs. I have had just under a dozen computers since then, all apple. Off the top of my head, my IIvx, my quadra, my 2 performas, my beige G3, 2 imacs (crt), b&w G3, G4 450, g4 1 ghz, and my 1.8 G5.

I've purchased every OS update from 8 through 10.2 Jaguar.

I'm aware that apple is known for their habits of charging an arm and a leg for each software update, i was just hoping maybe this time around, it could be different. You CAN teach an old dog new tricks.

So, basically, no. not new to the apple scene. idiot.

dongmin

Oct 6, 2003, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by achmafooma
I'm not a .Mac member, mind you, because I can't justify $100/year for things that I mostly already have. But if they threw in an OS subscription I'd be seriously considering it. If they threw in a Quicktime Pro key and Appleworks/iOffice/whatever on top of the OS, heck, for all of that and the assurance that I'd always have the newest versions... I'd gladly shell out $100/year, perhaps even $120 or $150.

wow so if you got a $130 piece of software for a $100 service, you'd actually pay for the $100 service. I think you have something there. Personally I'm still waiting for my local bank to offer the ol $100-bill-for-your-$20 offer that was so popular in the golden years.

Jeez, some of you people are so bloody cheap. It's simple: if the software is worth $130 to you, buy it. If not, don't. No one is forcing you.

And for those complaining that the newest versions of iCal, Mail, etc. won't run on older OS, get a life. All those are free software. You're expecting free software to run on your old OS? Especially software that's integrated with the OS? Unbelievable.

$130 is WELL WORTH IT. It has a ******** of new cool stuff (I think fast user switching and Expose alone is almost worth it.) It'll make your computer considerably more responsive. Look at it this way: $130 is 35.6 cents per day. I can tell you that Panther is way worth 35.6 cents a day.

sorry for the rant

Andrush

Oct 6, 2003, 09:31 PM

here I am going - get this:
writing this on a 15" AluBook 1,25 GHz with 1 GB RAM... and...
PANTHER !!!
yeah.
B85 GoldMaster
updatet my 10.2.8.
everything i checked out is perfekt
nothing but a charm
greetings from europe

AidenShaw

Oct 6, 2003, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by iHack
There are 5-packs for the home, giving you 5 licenses for $199,-. Seems like a good deal. And if you're going to benefit 4-fold, it seems like a fair thing to do to the people working for you to have that benefit.

Use the "home" package to upgrade the office - that's still a violation!

If you bleed in six colors, why would you steal from Apple?

Innagoddadavida

Oct 6, 2003, 10:27 PM

Some wise and insightful individual recently stated that those "coupons" are not good if you bought your machine under a edu deal. Does anyone know if this is true?

Also, clarify for me again--when they announce the ship date, does that mean that new machines will come pre-loaded, or is that only after the actual ship date?????????

:confused: Fused and Condazed :confused:

fpnc

Oct 6, 2003, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by Choppaface
anybody know if they'll be using product activation? I'll buy one copy, but not four X_X

As previously noted they have a family pack right now and I hope they continue that for 10.3. So, you get up to five installations per household for $200. Unfortunately, when Jaguar was introduced last year the Apple stores didn't carry the family pack until several weeks after Jaguar shipped. Thus, you couldn't get the family pack on the intro night.

1adonis1

Oct 6, 2003, 11:32 PM

I just want to see the "cube" effect, i think i'll spend most of the first day with the new OS switching back and forth!.
Originally posted by rdowns
Me too, way cool feature. Oh wait, I'm the only one who uses my Mac. Then again, I could assign a user account to each voice inside my head.

SeaFox

Oct 7, 2003, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by rdowns

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by 1adonis1
Cant wait for the faster user switching!!.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Me too, way cool feature. Oh wait, I'm the only one who uses my Mac. Then again, I could assign a user account to each voice inside my head.

I should make a signature line out of that...

SeaFox

Oct 7, 2003, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by SeaFox
I should make a signature line out of that...

test

Phil Of Mac

Oct 7, 2003, 12:41 AM

Originally posted by dongmin
Look at it this way: $130 is 35.6 cents per day. I can tell you that Panther is way worth 35.6 cents a day.

I'm going to buy a Mercedes Benz. It's only $1.09 per day...OVER THE HISTORY OF THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES!

Panther is 35.6 cents over a year? I'm fine with that. Just specify the period of time. :)

demagalhaes

Oct 7, 2003, 01:22 AM

thats why i spend a lot of bucks for my T1 connection, i love carracho!!!
:D

bankshot

Oct 7, 2003, 01:44 AM

Interesting little tidbit popped up over at AppleInsider (http://www.appleinsider.com/news.php?id=214). Guess we'll know pretty soon if that's correct!

Genie

Oct 7, 2003, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by bankshot
Interesting little tidbit popped up over at AppleInsider (http://www.appleinsider.com/news.php?id=214). Guess we'll know pretty soon if that's correct!

Pretty exciting!

alphaq619

Oct 7, 2003, 02:32 AM

I'm willing to put money that it comes out on Thursday, Oct 30.

NicoMan

Oct 7, 2003, 02:36 AM

Originally posted by Mac Kiwi
The reason I ask is I am waiting for 2 iiyama LCDs to arrive which I need a good card to power,but a 9800 Pro is just shy of a 1000 {NZ}
I don't know what graphics card you got, but you don't need a Radeon Pro 9800, unless you need some real 3D-rendering power. At work, we are using stock Radeon 9000 Pro (that came with MDDs) to run 2 Iiyama AU5131 LCDs (1600*1200 is their native resolution) without a hitch.

NicoMan

Oct 7, 2003, 02:39 AM

Originally posted by Choppaface
anybody know if they'll be using product activation? I'll buy one copy, but not four X_X
Don't forget that there is some sort of 'family-pack' with 5 licenses at $199, IIRC.

NicoMan

Oct 7, 2003, 03:02 AM

Originally posted by CraigMiami
I'm aware that apple is known for their habits of charging an arm and a leg for each software update,
You forgot an eye.

idiot
THAT SEEMS A LITTLE SEVERE, DON'T YOU THINK?? Especially when the original post included a smilie, possibly indicating a tease/joke.

rdowns

Oct 7, 2003, 05:42 AM

I must be moving up the food chain to be quoted in someone's sig. Make being a MacRumors newbie tolerable. Please note that future sig updates will cost you $129 but will be bundled with cool iSigs.

gopher

Oct 7, 2003, 07:54 AM

Even if the coupons do give people who purchased a machine within a month's release of Panther a shot at Panther for less, it is likely that version of Panther they get will be the Upgrade version, and not the full version. The upgrade version historically has been crippled in one way or another. The upgrade version of Jaguar missed a very important Archive and Install (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=107120) feature. I would hold off and get the full version at a Government, Military, or Educator/College Student discount.

bperkins

Oct 7, 2003, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by rdowns
I must be moving up the food chain to be quoted in someone's sig. Make being a MacRumors newbie tolerable. Please note that future sig updates will cost you $129 but will be bundled with cool iSigs.

:D :D You are on a roll...keep'em coming.

Rincewind42

Oct 7, 2003, 08:04 AM

Originally posted by Rocketman
So how does this work? From the time the OS is gold master there must be ADC members and such going nuts installing fresh installs and update installs on every conceivable mac from the past to identify bugs in time for software update to handle it on first or second boot of the machine. All while 10.3 is pachaging and distributing.

We wish we had 7B85 to install on any of our machines. The last ADC seed was 7B74. But of course, if you have BitTorrent you can get 7B85 now. Go figure. Developers 0, Pirates Millions+1.

And how old of a machine can really use the update anyway? One would think they would INCREASE machine support over time.

Panther will run on all Macs with built-in USB (B&W G3, PowerMac G4/G5, iMacs, iBooks, eMacs, and most PowerBooks). And technically they do increase machine support - new machines :D . As for the machines that are being dropped, they are all "old world" machines that still used the massive hardware rom.

magikminotaur

Oct 7, 2003, 10:13 AM

Like anything else new, let the first purchasers figure out the quirks before anyone dives right in. If you current rig works, it will continue to work. There is always bugs, no matter how trival. Then depending on the reviews or hardships of all the whinners, and we always have them. A good informed decision can be made.

1adonis1

Oct 7, 2003, 10:55 AM

I keep seeing how fast and much improved Panther will be, but everyone is using Dual's G4 above 1Ghz, anyone know how the 800Mhz imac users will be affected, hell this was this top (imac)system when i bought it in feburary, now it's seems like a commador 64.:(
I sure hope I see the improvements.

moby1

Oct 7, 2003, 11:26 AM

http://www.ikris.com/images/pinkcere.jpg

Rincewind42

Oct 7, 2003, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by 1adonis1
I keep seeing how fast and much improved Panther will be, but everyone is using Dual's G4 above 1Ghz, anyone know how the 800Mhz imac users will be affected, hell this was this top (imac)system when i bought it in feburary, now it's seems like a commador 64.:(
I sure hope I see the improvements.

Don't have a 800Mhz G4, but a single 1Ghz G4 (15" TiBook) and I can tell you that Panther is a HUGE improvement over Jaguar. You won't be disappointed.

1adonis1

Oct 7, 2003, 01:15 PM

That's iTunes music to my ears:)
Originally posted by Rincewind42
Don't have a 800Mhz G4, but a single 1Ghz G4 (15" TiBook) and I can tell you that Panther is a HUGE improvement over Jaguar. You won't be disappointed.

Phil Of Mac

Oct 7, 2003, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Rocketman
And how old of a machine can really use the update anyway? One would think they would INCREASE machine support over time.

Actually, as the OS becomes more and more advanced, it requires more and more sophisticated hardware to run it. Increasing hardware support is a fruitless effort anyway because as time passes, older hardware is used less and less.

yossele

Oct 7, 2003, 02:32 PM

Today I visited "IT Pro" Apple Center, in Antwerp - Belgium, I asked the salesman when 10.3 will be out, he told me in about two week, Oct 24, so i asked him if I can preorder a copy, he told that they still don't have the prices, they should get the prices by next week, so i guess that it's quite close.

And BTW they had a preview of Panther there on a 15" iMac 800MHz, and it was very snapy, i would say as snapy as a 17" PowerBook,I playd a lot on the 10.3 and i must say at IS a lot faster then 10.2, I'll go there back tommorrow to play more on 10.3.