Jay-Z and Apple to Launch Record Label at Macworld?

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

BoyGeniusReport revives (http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2008/01/02/jay-z-launching-record-label-with-apple/) earlier rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/07/15/apple-to-start-record-label-with-jay-z-and-beyonce/) that Apple and Jay-Z will be forming a record label around iTunes. They now expect this new record label to be launched at Macworld Expo 2008. This incarnation of the rumor, however, eliminates Beyonce's involvement.

The new report claims that a "high-up person" associated with Jay-Z has confirmed that plans are "a go". BoyGeniusReport had previously discounted (http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2007/07/15/apple-starting-record-label-with-jay-z-and-beyonce/) the July rumors based on a source close to both Jay-Z and Beyonce. Jay-Z recently stepped down (http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1578538/20071224/jay_z.jhtml) as president of Def Jam records after his contract expired on December 31st, saying that "it's time for me to take on new challenges."

In February 2007 (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/02/05/apple-inc-and-apple-corps-form-new-trademark-agreement/), Apple, Inc finally settled with Apple Corps and won rights to all trademarks related to "Apple". As a result, Apple, Inc would have no legal hurdles preventing it from fully entering the music industry.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/01/02/jay-z-and-apple-to-launch-record-label-at-macworld/)

[evilyankeefan]

Jay-Z? Worst thing to come out of MW if true.

[Lone Deranger]

Oh no.. not this again.... :(

[Stridder44]

BoyGeniusReport has been

...has been what?

[mrrydogg]

You can't even buy Jay-Z's new album on iTunes?!?!?!?

If Apple and Jay-Z are that close, you think they would offer and most likely feature his new album on their site.

Sounds bogus. Although it would be cool to get iTunes exclusives way before other sites.

[twoodcc]

well see. but i doubt this will really happen

[bluebomberman]

We need Steve Jobs to take some Jay-Z CD onstage at the next keynote and set it on fire with a flamethrower just to kill this stupid rumor for all eternity. :mad:

[Peace]

I can see Apple getting into the record label business but they better have more than just Jay-Z.

Does he do production also ?

[Project]

Oh great. Another "lets **** on Hiphop" thread on Mac Rumors.


How predictable.

[macphisto]

Isn't Jay-Z one of the artists (like Radiohead) who believes that the album must be sold together to preserve its original artistic value, and he has been critical of the songs being sold individually?

[PlaceofDis]

I can see Apple getting into the record label business but they better have more than just Jay-Z.

Does he do production also ?

hes more than an artist. i don't like his music, but he knows the business well. he was president of Def Jam, which is pretty freaking huge.

[technocoy]

yeah, I'm not nuts about his music either, but it's definitely hard to deny his talent as a music mogul and label president. Plus, he has TONS of pull with many artists, on all fronts.

[Grimace]

It would be a pretty amazing enterprise -- artists have long been locked into labels for distribution help, Apple may have a shot at getting in on that action.

That said, I think this is as likely as a AppleTV G5.

[.Andy]

Before you all continue to freak out check out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay-Z) what jay Z has accomplished. I'm not really a fan of his music (in fact I've only got the Grey Album as a danger mouse fan) but he's got some serious credentials. Just stepping down from CEO of Def Jam does add some credibility. I'd personally be really excited for Apple circumventing the record industry and splitting profits directly with artists. However their recent iPhone profit-sharing model makes me concerned that they might be just as bad...

[Badandy]

Jay-Z? Worst thing to come out of MW if true.

Jay-Z is a marketing genius who is so entrepreneurial it's ridiculous. He makes whatever he touches into a goldmine.

You can't even buy Jay-Z's new album on iTunes?!?!?!?

If Apple and Jay-Z are that close, you think they would offer and most likely feature his new album on their site.


It's a one album only thing for his new CD "American Gangster." Since it's a concept album he wants it all unified and for people not to be able to buy it on a song by song basis. His newest album is all about taking in the full sonic experience. He didn't care about sales when he made that album, and it shows. No stupid pop rap, it's a great CD and accompanies the movie very well.

I can see Apple getting into the record label business but they better have more than just Jay-Z.

Does he do production also ?

He executive produces, but no beat making. And you're right, they better have more than just Jay-Z, but he's a good figure to start out with.

[DMann]

hes more than an artist. i don't like his music, but he knows the business well. he was president of Def Jam, which is pretty freaking huge.

And this would be the sole attribute which would make this prediction realistic.

[guzhogi]

Don't know how related this is, but on AppleInsider, they have an article about a big "secret" that's going to be revealed @ a Final Cut Pro meeting the day after Steve's MW keynote. Here's the link to the article: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/01/02/apple_presenting_secret_at_final_cut_meet_radiohead_on_itunes.html

[chicagostars]

File this in the dustbin next to the rumors that swirled around a couple of years back about Jay-Z planning to go to the UK to buy Arsenal FC because he's supposedly tight with Thierry Henry. (Sorry kids, the investment in the New Jersey Nets PALES in comparison to what it would cost to buy Arsenal.)

Something may happen to prove me wrong, but I'm not so sure that Apple would want to make that move (launch a record label) with or without Jay-Z. Stranger things have happened, though.

. . . cue up the first track from "Reasonable Doubt."

[zedsdead]

Don't know how related this is, but on AppleInsider, they have an article about a big "secret" that's going to be revealed @ a Final Cut Pro meeting the day after Steve's MW keynote. Here's the link to the article: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/01/02/apple_presenting_secret_at_final_cut_meet_radiohead_on_itunes.html

Maybe they are finally releasing Final Cut Server, Dvd Studio Pro 5, or the succesor to Shake.

[veeco3110]

welcome to Macworld 2008...ALLOW ME TO RE-INTRODUCE MYSELF MY NAME IS STEVE OH J-O TO THE B-S...CEO OF THE M-A-C

[JonHimself]

Regardless of who is involved, I like the idea of Apple as a record label. What I've always thought would be a good solution (but not without problems) would be to simply allow bands (any band) to upload their albums that they have produced. You can charge a monthly hosting rate as well as taking a small amount from each transaction (significantly less than record labels). You could then also introduce levels where bands could pay more per month and have their album featured in rotating ads, this would add to the monthly hosting rate, but not to the per transaction fee that Apple would take. The delivery service for the music already there through iTunes. Most of the work that record labels do for starting bands is just help in the distribution of their music, helping them get their name out. iTunes as a record label could make distribution so much easier for bands and cheaper.
Ultimately you would end up with a lot of crap on iTunes but at the same time, any terrible band could put their music up there and direct any fans across the globe they might have to it and still be able to make money. It could really shake up the music industry in that at least bands would have another option other than the traditional labels that take huge cuts of the profit.

[macEfan]

I don't think this is exactly the best option... apple seems to be expanding a little too fast if this rumor is true....

[philmo]

Wasn't Jay-Z in one of those HP (?) notebook commercials where people use their hands to show what they can do on their computer?

[.Andy]

welcome to Macworld 2008...ALLOW ME TO RE-INTRODUCE MYSELF MY NAME IS STEVE OH J-O TO THE B-S...CEO OF THE M-A-C
I've got 99 problems but a OS glitch aint one.

[mrrydogg]

It's a one album only thing for his new CD "American Gangster." Since it's a concept album he wants it all unified and for people not to be able to buy it on a song by song basis. His newest album is all about taking in the full sonic experience. He didn't care about sales when he made that album, and it shows. No stupid pop rap, it's a great CD and accompanies the movie very well.

I know all that, but if he was gearing up for a deal with Apple, you think they would of offered his album for purchase, right? I mean Amazon worked it out with him, but his "new business partner" Apple, couldn't????

Makes no sense.

[PlaceofDis]

I've got 99 problems but a OS glitch aint one.

made me laugh. thanks. :D

[nostaws]

I like the idea, but I hope it isn't "too" integrated with apple, but more of a Filemaker approach to the business.

This could really give a lot of musicians a way to be heard without having to sell their soul or have big boobs.

[Manatee]

Jay-Z? Can't they do better than him? They should lay out some big bucks and get an established legend... maybe Gene Simmons. :)

[boss1]

It seems people are quick to judge this possible relationship based on their like / dislike of the artist/genre/culture .

This train of thought is akin to say, "let's turn down Modonna as a possible best seller because she's to pornographic for TV, and a bad role model for society" . Or, "Let's not sign a deal with Elvis because his music is the devil's music".

Artistic talent aside, Jay Z is an ideal choice to partner with in the music industry because of his influence, well built & powerful relationships, track record, time & time again proven ability to turn new talent into top selling talent, leadership ability in the industry, among many other reasons.

The age of Vinyl Album is long gone and the age of CD is falling off the same cliff at a rapid rate. This could turn out to be an ideal relationship for both Apple and Jay Z.

Actually now that I think of it, I can't really think of any other current music industry leaders who would fit the bill better, and are in a current position to make an impact, cross genres, and keen to what sellable today, if Apple really did want to spur off it's own record label.

Apple absolutely needs an established and independent entity to lead the charge if they truly want to make a dent in the music industry as a label, and they definitely have that in Jay Z. Apple by itself doesn't have the experience, relationships, management capacity, promotion capacity, touring machine in place that it takes to push an artist to number in the nation/globe .

This is a far fetched rumor imo, I won't believe it till I see it, but I do the see the enormity of potential if true.

[minik]

Jay-Z is fine... just not Beyoncé.

[boss1]

I'm not retracting anything I said above, but I did forget to mention why I feel this is far fetched and very likely not to happen. Apple starting a label or even showing too much preference toward one such as would be with this case causes to many conflicts of interest in it's current role as distributor/retailer to every other label.

That simple. If Apple starts it's own label it had better be prepared to trade it's amicable relationships and publishing rights with all other labels in exchange for raw competition and less content sold through iTunes.

Yah, it could get pretty ugly.

[Badandy]

Jay-Z? Can't they do better than him? They should lay out some big bucks and get an established legend... maybe Gene Simmons. :)

Jay-Z has more number 1 albums than any person/band in american music history other than the Beatles (he is tied with Elvis I believe). Big bucks? Jay-Z is worth about $400 million; I think they would be paying him the HUGE bucks if they could coax him onto another record label.

[samh004]

Wouldn't making their own label scare the major labels away more than bring them closer to see the way... surely this would be a bad move.

That being said, digital-only distribution on the largest and most successful platform is a good selling point, but I wonder how many new artists will see it that way, after all, it'd likely only be one store (although maybe all the countries).

[boss1]

Jay-Z has more number 1 albums than any person/band in american music history other than the Beatles (he is tied with Elvis I believe). Big bucks? Jay-Z is worth about $400 million; I think they would be paying him the HUGE bucks if they could coax him onto another record label.

From what I understand, that's one of the primary reasons Jay Z pulled his album from iTunes at the last minute. In order for him to tie with Elvis in # of full albums sold it was pulled off iTunes because single sales and digital sales may have compromised and cannibalized that milestone.


What concerns me the most is the timing of Jay Z stepping down from Def Jam 'to take on new challenges'? hmmm, MWSF may be very interesting for the music industry.

I guess I could possibly see "a" relationship develop but it would have to be a very different capacity than new record label headed by Jay Z. They may ask him to take lead or head a new department err something but I just don't see record label happening. Simply because a label is exclusive to the artists under its management and that does not include every other label in the iTunes Library.

[nimbuscloud]

Come on, we know the rumor is true. But I don't think it's going to be a traditional record label just like how the iPhone isn't a traditional smart phone.

Stop thinking in the past, guys. Also, please stop with the negativity due to Jay-Z being in hip-hop while being black. We know that's the reason people HERE are complaining. If it was rumored to be Green frickin' Day or anyone of a "whiter complexion", most people here would think that it's ok.

But then again, most people here thought that the iPod was a dumb idea when it first came out. Glad those people aren't working at Apple. :rolleyes:

:apple:

[CommodityFetish]

Regardless of who is involved, I like the idea of Apple as a record label. What I've always thought would be a good solution (but not without problems) would be to simply allow bands (any band) to upload their albums that they have produced. You can charge a monthly hosting rate as well as taking a small amount from each transaction (significantly less than record labels).

I like this too, and it's already out there. See http://cdbaby.net for artist-friendly digital distribution on iTunes and other digital stores.

:D

As far as apple starting their own record label, I think it would be interesting, but a tricky conflict of interest deal when it comes to working with other labels and whose music gets promoted in the store... So I'd be surprised if that's in the works. Maybe they've got something else up their sleeve that would not put them at such odds with the other labels?

[poppe]

This may have been said, but I don't care if its Jay-Z, Tom Arnold, or Alvin and the Chipmunks to come out with a record label. What I do care about is that this will help cement iTunes as way to deliver music; especially when you get exclusivity on tracks, videos and so-forth.

[ph0rk]

Come on, we know the rumor is true. But I don't think it's going to be a traditional record label just like how the iPhone isn't a traditional smart phone.

Stop thinking in the past, guys. Also, please stop with the negativity due to Jay-Z being in hip-hop while being black. We know that's the reason people HERE are complaining. If it was rumored to be Green frickin' Day or anyone of a "whiter complexion", most people here would think that it's ok.

But then again, most people here thought that the iPod was a dumb idea when it first came out. Glad those people aren't working at Apple. :rolleyes:

:apple:


Shall we consider the race card played?

I doubt Jay-Z is very knowledgeable about the genres I enjoy, so I can only hope that they will bring on more management talent if this is true. Of course, hey may be looking to move another step from the creation/production/talent seeking process, in which case I don't really care who sits in the comfy chair.

The industry needs a miracle the way things are going, so we'll see.

[iMikeT]

Just another bogus rumor that found its way to page 2 of Macrumors.:rolleyes:

[Full of Win]

Awesome – this occurrence is right up there on my list of must sees at MacWorld.

1. Apple gets into Rap Music, and pushes it even more on iTunes
2. Introduces a ShockBook Pro, that gives painful shocks at random and wipes your home directory every Tuesday.
3. Releases iStank, that will release an the aroma of dog vomit and rotten milk every time the space bar is pressed.

Oh, and here is my rap...

I sittin in the crib drinkin’ my snapple, then I open up the Coach bag out comes the Apple

Then I mankin da Engadget scene, when XPfanBoi calls on me and sayz “Yo, you gots a Crapple!!!”

I said I ain’t taken’ that – my computer can do UNIX like 123!

He then tells me my GPU’s weaker than an EeePC.

Then I’m typing up a wicked reply…when my keyboard freezes up on me.

[Lixivial]

If true, Apple will be one step closer to Sony.

And I will be one step closer to moving full time to Linux.

[megfilmworks]

Jay-Z is a marketing genius who is so entrepreneurial it's ridiculous.
Call me old school, but I'd rather have a musician run a record label instead of a marketing genius.

[megfilmworks]

Jay-Z is fine... just not Beyoncé.
I think you got that backwards...
Beyonce is an incredible singer, a talented dancer, drop dead gorgeous, and a good actor as well.
Jay-Z is a great promoter who happens to make okay records.

[nimbuscloud]

Shall we consider the race card played?

I doubt Jay-Z is very knowledgeable about the genres I enjoy, so I can only hope that they will bring on more management talent if this is true. Of course, hey may be looking to move another step from the creation/production/talent seeking process, in which case I don't really care who sits in the comfy chair.

The industry needs a miracle the way things are going, so we'll see.

Of course I'll play the card, though others are playing it quietly with all the negative ideas.

This rumor doesn't really say exactly what Jay-Z will be doing. Heck, he could be head of a Hip-Hop area for an Apple "record label". We don't know, but hell...I'd rather have Jay-Z (who has some skill) rather than a phoney rapper with none like 50 Cent.

Anyway, when Steve Jobs announces that Trent Reznor is also on board, most will change their thoughts.

:apple:

[Badandy]

Call me old school, but I'd rather have a musician run a record label instead of a marketing genius.

Well, he does make music, so really the best of both worlds. Successful music career and label office experience? Check.

[Full of Win]

I'd rather have Jay-Z (who has some skill) rather than a phoney rapper with none like 50 Cent.

You mean to tell us there are rappers that are not phoney? :eek: That I'd pay to see. Mark my words, if this JZ fellow comes out during MacWorld, that might be the moment that Apple jumps the shark in my book.

[T'hain Esh Kelch]

welcome to Macworld 2008...ALLOW ME TO RE-INTRODUCE MYSELF MY NAME IS STEVE OH J-O TO THE B-S...CEO OF THE M-A-C
Haha, that so made my day! :D

As to the rumor, I don't believe it. Apple would make waaaay too many enemies by doing this...

[cyberdogl2]

well, not to excite a tangent on the validity of Jay's "realness", but Full of Win, yeah there are true authentic rappers and Jay-Z is one of the truest. Please don't believe that all rap is about is being phoney and the like.

[Project]

I think you got that backwards...
Beyonce is an incredible singer, a talented dancer, drop dead gorgeous, and a good actor as well.
Jay-Z is a great promoter who happens to make okay records.

Jay-Zs musical contribution to the world far exceeds Beyonces. Reasonable Doubt and the Blueprint alone does this.

[thegman1234]

...the best of both worlds...

No pun intended right? Lol.

Personally I don't like the idea of Apple having their own record label. Between leopard, and the iPhone, don't they have enough on their hands? This rumor seems very very fake to me. Plus, wouldn't that be a direct violation of their settlement with Apple Records years ago. I know that Apple Inc. now has control over the Apple mark, but that doesn't change the fact that they can't enter the music business in that fashion, does it?

[chicagostars]

Jay-Z? Can't they do better than him? They should lay out some big bucks and get an established legend... maybe Gene Simmons. :)

And Gene Simmons can bring along Shannon Tweed to head up Apple's new soft-core p0rn division. :D

(Gotta wait on that one, Gene's a little busy as a contestant on 'The Apprentice'.)

[dalvin200]

I think this may have some truth, especially as Just Blaze (hip hop producer) admitted last week that he's been invited to perform on stage.. he also admitted he's be getting a shiny new ultra-portable too!!

Link (http://www.trustedreviews.com/notebooks/news/2007/12/31/Rap-Star-Blabs-New-MacBooks-Confirmation/p1)

[takao]

I doubt Jay-Z is very knowledgeable about the genres I enjoy, so I can only hope that they will bring on more management talent if this is true. Of course, hey may be looking to move another step from the creation/production/talent seeking process, in which case I don't really care who sits in the comfy chair.

yeah i'm in the same boat ... i don't know if Jay-Z can handle the other genres out there which would also come up with a more general label apple would obviously aiming for

[wiz7dome]

I dont believe this rumor. I think people have talked about the idea of Jay Z's involvement with Apple so much they want it to be true. However there are several things to consider. Jay Z is an accomplished artist but not a good record label exec. This isn't to tarnish his success, but its the reality of were his strong points are. Just as not every singer can write songs, not every successful act can run a business were they must duplicate that success for other artist.

Second, Steve Jobs is already on record as saying that the music industry should change its structure to be more "profit sharing". Instead of labels spending a bunch of money up front, they would only be in for so much in proportion to what the artist sells. I don't think that idea is entirely bad. Being in the industry I can see ups and downs with it, but on its face it could result in artist who don't sell big in numbers (1 million +) make more money, because its based on profit generated and not an artificial "scale" based on points under the pretext of the label spending so much money on artist.


I do not see Jay Z as having done anything along these lines with his own career or anybody affiliated with him on or off Def Jam. Now Prince on the other hand.................

[guzhogi]

I'm not retracting anything I said above, but I did forget to mention why I feel this is far fetched and very likely not to happen. Apple starting a label or even showing too much preference toward one such as would be with this case causes to many conflicts of interest in it's current role as distributor/retailer to every other label.

That simple. If Apple starts it's own label it had better be prepared to trade it's amicable relationships and publishing rights with all other labels in exchange for raw competition and less content sold through iTunes.

Yah, it could get pretty ugly.

Wouldn't making their own label scare the major labels away more than bring them closer to see the way... surely this would be a bad move.

That being said, digital-only distribution on the largest and most successful platform is a good selling point, but I wonder how many new artists will see it that way, after all, it'd likely only be one store (although maybe all the countries).

No pun intended right? Lol.

Personally I don't like the idea of Apple having their own record label. Between leopard, and the iPhone, don't they have enough on their hands? This rumor seems very very fake to me. Plus, wouldn't that be a direct violation of their settlement with Apple Records years ago. I know that Apple Inc. now has control over the Apple mark, but that doesn't change the fact that they can't enter the music business in that fashion, does it?

All very good points. A little afraid that Apple will push the other record labels away and also stretch itself too thin. Remember how they had to delay Leopard b/c of the iPhone? I'd be surprised if Apple doesn't delay more & more things if it becomes a record label.

Something that would be interesting (don't know if in a good or bad way so don't flame me) would be if Apple Inc. (the computer company) bought Apple Corp. (the Beatle's record label).

As far as Jay-Z's concerned, I don't really care as long as they're good musicians, have the business know-how and are fairly famous. Musician because they'd know what musicians want/need, business b/c they'll need to keep this working well and famous so they bring in a lot of attention & sales.

[dmelgar]

Why would other labels want to sell their stuff on iTunes if Apple became a direct competitor to their business? It also seems far removed from Apple's core business. What would be next, become a movie studio?

If remotely true, I would think it maybe more likely that Apple would somehow invest or participate in a new label that was an entity seperate from Apple. That might give enough distance to not overly bother the labels which sell through iTunes.

Its clear the music industry needs a fundamental shake up. Apple maybe as good as anyone at it, but it will be tough going. I don't want to see Apple stretch too far into other businesses.

Digg style social music sites are an interesting idea. Places such as http://www.thesixtyone.com/

I think that sort of experimentation is more reasonable than Apple starting a label. Whole lot less expensive.

[Cloudane]

Apparently to mark the occasion, they're going to give away 1000 of their very first iPod Touch's, manufactured in Week 36 of 2007 ;)

[Klaxons2012]

Great job selling this rumor short everyone.

For the ignorant, Jay-Z has just as many platinum records as Elvis Presley. In order for him to go platinum, he not only has to have a good record, but marketing and cross over appeal as well.

As far as genres go, you're forgetting one important thing. It's not Def Jam, it's Island-Def Jam. He's worked with Fallout Boy on one of their most successful albums. I'm not sure where you get off saying he wouldn't be as knowledgeable about other genres. Somebody proposed Gene Simmons, but I don't see Gene Simmons collaborating with Lil' Wayne any time soon, right? Right.

Jay-Z and Apple will be interesting. I think the not dealing with iTunes thing was a personal choice and I don't think that would be seperate from whatever business dealings Jay and Apple may have. After all, he made that decision as Island-DefJam's President.

[Chaszmyr]

A lot of things would have to fall into place for an Apple record label (with or without Jay-Z) to work, but it could end up being pretty amazing. Most money these days goes to the labels, so if bands signed directly with Apple it would increase Apple's profits and could greatly increase the share of the pie that artists get. If it caught on quickly enough, artists could be promoted through iTunes, really effectively cutting out the middle man. Moreover, it would obviously help cement Apple's place in the music industry for the long haul.

[Mindflux]

Great job selling this rumor short everyone.

For the ignorant, Jay-Z has just as many platinum records as Elvis Presley. In order for him to go platinum, he not only has to have a good record, but marketing and cross over appeal as well.




The decline of intelligent human beings since 1977 is astounding. Nothing more. Jay-Z has 'as many' platinum albums, sure. How much larger is the population now.. and furthermore how many of them have good taste? How many would consider Jay-Z to be in good taste? Not I.

[vixapphire]

It also seems far removed from Apple's core business. What would be next, become a movie studio?


Hello Pixar!

With an open mind and can-do attitude, many things are possible. Remember "think outside the box"?

[slicecom]

Wow I feel like I stepped back in time to the 1940's upon entering this thread. I detect either a ton of racism bubbling under the surface or just pure ignorance.

I don't believe the rumor to be true, and don't particularly like Jay Z's music or even know much about him, but even I know that he is one of the most influential and powerful people that the music industry has ever seen and has sold absolutely insane amounts of records. Sadly, I have a feeling if he was white, this thread would have an entirely different tone, but I digress.

[Klaxons2012]

The decline of intelligent human beings since 1977 is astounding.

So listening to Jay-Z automatically makes you unintelligent? I didn't know my iTunes playlist determines my IQ. People can ignore my degree, my career and the volunteer work I do tutoring teenagers because I'm a Jay-Z fan!! DURRRRR! Christ.

Nothing more. Jay-Z has 'as many' platinum albums, sure. How much larger is the population now.. and furthermore how many of them have good taste? How many would consider Jay-Z to be in good taste? Not I.

Good taste is subjective and is quite irrelevant when it comes to running a record label. Many people consider Rick Rubin to be in poor taste but he's produced some of America's greatest records across the spectrum of music genres out there. I think you're speaking from a pretentious and damn near Xenophobic part of the psyche. Most of all, you lack intelligence.

Selling a Million records in this day and age is incredibly difficult. For Jay-Z to sell a million records in such a short time with ZERO digital distribution is unheard of, but he did it.

[Badandy]

You mean to tell us there are rappers that are not phoney? :eek: That I'd pay to see. Mark my words, if this JZ fellow comes out during MacWorld, that might be the moment that Apple jumps the shark in my book.

It's Jay-Z. Jump the shark? Why?

No pun intended right? Lol.

O man, it wasn't intended, very nice catch!



The decline of intelligent human beings since 1977 is astounding. Nothing more. Jay-Z has 'as many' platinum albums, sure. How much larger is the population now..

He actually has as many #1 albums, not just platinum. Population size doesn't account for #1 albums.

and furthermore how many of them have good taste? How many would consider Jay-Z to be in good taste? Not I.

Good taste? WTF does that mean? Like the majority of Rock and Roll is in good taste?

It is really sad to see people denigrate an artist's skills, influence, or worth because that artist uses expletives or some topics that they find disagreeable. Why don't you get four of his albums, Reasonable Doubt, The Blueprint, The Black Album, and American Gangster and comment on his artistic worth after that, instead of filling this thread with your uninformed and ignorant opinions? And after you've listened to his albums, why don't you see if you can catch all the complex word play, double meaning, and structure in his records. Get out of your comfort zone and open your mind to something different instead of closing it off due to a bunch of nonsense criteria.

[slicecom]

So listening to Jay-Z automatically makes you unintelligent? I didn't know my iTunes playlist determines my IQ. People can ignore my degree, my career and the volunteer work I do tutoring teenagers because I'm a Jay-Z fan!! DURRRRR! Christ.

Some peoples ignorance never ceases to amaze me. There was a time when the vast majority believed the same of those who listened to Elvis or the Beatles. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[chicagostars]

The decline of intelligent human beings since 1977 is astounding. Nothing more. Jay-Z has 'as many' platinum albums, sure. How much larger is the population now.. and furthermore how many of them have good taste? How many would consider Jay-Z to be in good taste? Not I.

Your point would be better respected if you had just stuck with the the very true point that our population has grown immensely over the past several decades, making it theoretically easier for someone to sell more units than in the past. I'm no Jay-Z apologist, but firing off elitist missives against humankind -- presumably excepting yourself -- doesn't help engender useful conversation.

[szark]

I'd love to see Apple start a record label subsidiary, and show the Big Four how to properly handle the digital age.

Plus, wouldn't that be a direct violation of their settlement with Apple Records years ago. I know that Apple Inc. now has control over the Apple mark, but that doesn't change the fact that they can't enter the music business in that fashion, does it?

The settlement from the most recent lawsuit transferred full control and ownership of the Apple Records trademark to Apple (Computers) Inc. That eliminated any claims of trademark dilution, since Apple Inc. now owns both trademarks. Therefore they have no contractual restrictions on entering the music business.

[bozs13]

Your point would be better respected if you had just stuck with the the very true point that our population has grown immensely over the past several decades, making it theoretically easier for someone to sell more units than in the past. I'm no Jay-Z apologist, but firing off elitist missives against humankind -- presumably excepting yourself -- doesn't help engender useful conversation.

Bringing up population growth just opens a huge can of worms. There more artists to choose from, from many more generations. There are far more genres and and there is much more diversity...and Rock and Roll isn't the only "trendy" genre right now like it was back in the Elvis days. I could even go as far as saying that inflation as it is right now is keeping people from being able to buy what they want, but I don't mean to stretch it that far. Yes, there are many more people on this planet, but there are so many more options begging for your money etc. etc. and the income hasn't increased substantially....sorry, another tangent. Let's just say I wouldn't compare the number of platinum records and/or top hits.
I most definitely agree with chicagostars...the elitist comments are not helping.

[carlitofox]

I'd love to see Apple start a record label subsidiary, and show the Big Four how to properly handle the digital age.



The settlement from the most recent lawsuit transferred full control and ownership of the Apple Records trademark to Apple (Computers) Inc. That eliminated any claims of trademark dilution, since Apple Inc. now owns both trademarks. Therefore they have no contractual restrictions on entering the music business.


i think this is true and as above states Apple inc won the last battle agenst apple music but if were honest i thing Apple inc actualy brought Apple music !!!!!

the head of Apple music left in the summer last year (after being there 30 odd years +) as he felt the company was going the wrong way !!!!!

apple will announce the beatles on itunes and there own record label called apple music who also co-owns the beatles with Paul macartny .

[chicagostars]

Bringing up population growth just opens a huge can of worms. There more artists to choose from, from many more generations. There are far more genres and and there is much more diversity...and Rock and Roll isn't the only "trendy" genre right now like it was back in the Elvis days. I could even go as far as saying that inflation as it is right now is keeping people from being able to buy what they want, but I don't mean to stretch it that far. Yes, there are many more people on this planet, but there are so many more options begging for your money etc. etc. and the income hasn't increased substantially....sorry, another tangent. Let's just say I wouldn't compare the number of platinum records and/or top hits.
I agree with out though chicagostars...the elitist comments are not helping.

. . . a big Costco sized can of worms. :)

[Digital Skunk]

Jay-Z? Worst thing to come out of MW if true.

Nope.... iPhone.

Call me old school, but I'd rather have a musician run a record label instead of a marketing genius.

Where have you been. Since when did musician's run record labels?

I think you got that backwards...
Beyonce is an incredible singer, a talented dancer, drop dead gorgeous, and a good actor as well.
Jay-Z is a great promoter who happens to make okay records.

You are lost my friend. If you think Beyonce is a good actor then you lost your credibility right there.

The decline of intelligent human beings since 1977 is astounding. Nothing more. Jay-Z has 'as many' platinum albums, sure. How much larger is the population now.. and furthermore how many of them have good taste? How many would consider Jay-Z to be in good taste? Not I.

How can you judge someone on good taste, when that concept is purely opinionated? Sorry, you're just setting yourself up for a flame because you don't like a certain genre/culture/person.

Honestly, if Jobs ran Apple as good as Jay-Z ran Def Jam people wouldn't be getting yellow inaccurate screens, poorly built notebooks, and crappy hardware with limited options.

[Mindflux]

Good taste is subjective and is quite irrelevant when it comes to running a record label. Many people consider Rick Rubin to be in poor taste but he's produced some of America's greatest records across the spectrum of music genres out there. I think you're speaking from a pretentious and damn near Xenophobic part of the psyche. Most of all, you lack intelligence.

Selling a Million records in this day and age is incredibly difficult. For Jay-Z to sell a million records in such a short time with ZERO digital distribution is unheard of, but he did it.


Actually selling Millions of records in this day and age is quite easy. You settle on a genre that the masses hoard. So right now it seems EMO and Hip-Hop fall into those categories. Where do you get the idea I lack intelligence when:

I'm the first one to bring up there are simply MORE people in the world than prior decades. Furthermore, the Gen X-ers and beyond are also known to spend frivolously. The people born in the decades proceeding the late 70's and early eighties were much more frugal.

You're simply calling me unintelligent because I think the bulk of todays society is. I also didn't exclude myself from that at all. I'm certainly not a genius and also not immune to mass advertising and their affects. I've boughten things because I liked the commercial before I saw or heard the product elsewhere. So I can be just as sheepish as the next guy helping someone go 'platinum'.

[karmapolice63]

Well now he can add Apple to his list of 99 Problems

[slicecom]

Actually selling Millions of records in this day and age is quite easy.

:rolleyes:

[Digital Skunk]

Actually selling Millions of records in this day and age is quite easy. You settle on a genre that the masses hoard. So right now it seems EMO and Hip-Hop fall into those categories. Where do you get the idea I lack intelligence when:

I'm the first one to bring up there are simply MORE people in the world than prior decades. Furthermore, the Gen X-ers and beyond are also known to spend frivolously. The people born in the decades proceeding the late 70's and early eighties were much more frugal.

You're simply calling me unintelligent because I think the bulk of todays society is. I also didn't exclude myself from that at all. I'm certainly not a genius and also not immune to mass advertising and their affects. I've boughten things because I liked the commercial before I saw or heard the product elsewhere. So I can be just as sheepish as the next guy helping someone go 'platinum'.

Yeah, but as was said before there are more artists to choose from. We get you on the intelligence part and the frivolous spending of money issue but this generation also has more money to spend, so we don't have to be frugal as our parents once where... yes I am including myself in THIS generation... a child of a baby boomer.

My point is, we can't discredit someone's ability to run a business on how we feel about that person or their music. Personally I think the idea of Apple starting a record label is crazy. They should have started their own wireless service for the iPhone instead. But if they were going to do it the best choice would still be Jay-Z based on his knowledge of the industry, and his growth as an entrepreneur. Most other musicians and business persons haven't climbed as far as he has, in the short amount of time that he has, with as many people trying to screw him over.

[Badandy]

Since DigitalSkunk seems to have addressed most of the points, I'll just add in a few of my own.

Actually selling Millions of records in this day and age is quite easy.You settle on a genre that the masses hoard. So right now it seems EMO and Hip-Hop fall into those categories. Where do you get the idea I lack intelligence when:

Selling a million copies is very difficult, as slicecom so accurately pointed out. Besides, what does this have to do with anything?

I'm the first one to bring up there are simply MORE people in the world than prior decades. Furthermore, the Gen X-ers and beyond are also known to spend frivolously. The people born in the decades proceeding the late 70's and early eighties were much more frugal.

You mean there are more people now than there were before? No, say it ain't so!

But seriously, numbers of people mean...nothing. He has as many #1 albums as Elvis, tied for second all time. Not platinum, as many #1's. That's different, and if you fail to see the difference then that is your problem.


You keep digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole. You're commenting on something you do not know (Jay-Z's business acumen and musical success) and at the same time arguing your flawed points off of wrong facts.




Now, since that should be over with I'd like you to do something for all of us:

Buy a copy of Reasonable Doubt (1996) by Jay-Z. And when you listen to it, don't mind the expletives, try to see past what your mind will initially say (rap is just drivel, blah blah blah blah) and listen to it with the lyrics out in front of you. Then come back and tell us what you thought, honestly.

[thegman1234]

...The settlement from the most recent lawsuit transferred full control and ownership of the Apple Records trademark to Apple (Computers) Inc. That eliminated any claims of trademark dilution, since Apple Inc. now owns both trademarks. Therefore they have no contractual restrictions on entering the music business.

Touche... lol.


I still don't think this is a good idea.

[juanster]

The decline of intelligent human beings since 1977 is astounding. Nothing more. Jay-Z has 'as many' platinum albums, sure. How much larger is the population now.. and furthermore how many of them have good taste? How many would consider Jay-Z to be in good taste? Not I.
hahah and yet you consider yourself of good taste? lol that why it's called taste, we all have different ones, I may find what you listen to extremely annoying and distasteful to ME, but i would never go on to say that the music you listen to sucks...some people out there still even like Elvis and I can't stand his music...

[takao]

But seriously, numbers of people mean...nothing. He has as many #1 albums as Elvis, tied for second all time. Not platinum, as many #1's. That's different, and if you fail to see the difference then that is your problem.

yet i still can't name a single song from him because obviously he never was hit around here in europe .. in fact many of his nr 1 albums not even made the top 40

(here hip hop is having hefty problems currently in terms of sales outside of the really big acts ... yet again after years of hip hop media dominance people got tired of it)


Buy a copy of Reasonable Doubt (1996) by Jay-Z. And when you listen to it, don't mind the expletives, try to see past what your mind will initially say (rap is just drivel, blah blah blah blah) and listen to it with the lyrics out in front of you. Then come back and tell us what you thought, honestly.

so ? how about you listening to Blind Guardian,Rhapsody of Fire or similar power metal bands ?


Jay-Z is great in US focused marketing but he still has to prove himself on a bigger scale

[Branden]

welcome to Macworld 2008...ALLOW ME TO RE-INTRODUCE MYSELF MY NAME IS STEVE OH J-O TO THE B-S...CEO OF THE M-A-C

I laughed at this for about 3 minutes straight.

[Willis]

If this was to happen, how would they get around the old Apple Corps agreement?

Either way, they couldn't have the name Apple in the name of the label. Maybe using a different name would be able to by-pass this?

Still doubt it would happen due to too many obstacles, but you never know.

[Project]

If this was to happen, how would they get around the old Apple Corps agreement?

Either way, they couldn't have the name Apple in the name of the label. Maybe using a different name would be able to by-pass this?

Still doubt it would happen due to too many obstacles, but you never know.

As its been stated earlier in the thread, Apple settled with Apple Corps and have full and unrestricted right to use "Apple" in whatever context they see fit

yet i still can't name a single song from him because obviously he never was hit around here in europe .. in fact many of his nr 1 albums not even made the top 40

(here hip hop is having hefty problems currently in terms of sales outside of the really big acts ... yet again after years of hip hop media dominance people got tired of it)

Jay-Z is big in the UK (26 Top 40 singles, and nearly all of his albums have reached there too) and pretty much everywhere else in Europe that has a thriving Hiphop scene (Germany, Croatia, France, Sweden etc).

[SheriffParker]

welcome to Macworld 2008...ALLOW ME TO RE-INTRODUCE MYSELF MY NAME IS STEVE OH J-O TO THE B-S...CEO OF THE M-A-C

LOL! If you feeling like a mac then go on brush your shoulder off! iPhones is macs too, go on brush your shoulder off.

[Digital Skunk]

yet i still can't name a single song from him because obviously he never was hit around here in europe .. in fact many of his nr 1 albums not even made the top 40

(here hip hop is having hefty problems currently in terms of sales outside of the really big acts ... yet again after years of hip hop media dominance people got tired of it)



so ? how about you listening to Blind Guardian,Rhapsody of Fire or similar power metal bands ?


Jay-Z is great in US focused marketing but he still has to prove himself on a bigger scale

So what on the first part. Playing in the world market isn't a measure of how good someone is as an entrepreneur. And the same thing goes for the obscure band you just mentioned. Honestly, the only problem I have with everyone and this Jay-Z thing is their cultural ignorance and their feelings towards Apple choosing a musician/businessman that isn't from their country or favorite music genre.

If Apple did choose some guy from another genre would they have knowledge about hip hop, or metal, or jazz? Not if they are from Europe, and definitely not if they didn't have the amount of knowledge that Jay-Z has. I don't listen to too much of his music myself sans the albums that made him a lot of money, but you can't deny his talent as a successful musician and president of Def Jam.

As stated before, he has done more with the hip hop genre than Jobs has done with technology and did it in a shorter amount of time. And Jay-Z, being a hip hop artist, has reached more European Americans than the metal bands in Europe have.

Honestly, I would rather see Jay-Z create a music label with Apple just to spite those that don't want to see it happen.

[turlehe]

Hmm, don't see why Jay-Z is getting all the hate. If there is anyone out their capable of running an Apple label and making it successful, it's JAY-Z. Like said previously, anything he touches turns to gold.

[Digital Skunk]

Hmm, don't see why Jay-Z is getting all the hate. If there is anyone out their capable of running an Apple label and making it successful, it's JAY-Z. Like said previously, anything he touches turns to gold.

It's because people don't understand him or the culture/genre he comes from. What ignorant people don't understand, they hate and attempt to destroy. Others, the smart ones, try their best to learn it and study it so they may understand.

Like Mindflux said, and he was right, intelligence levels have been coming down since 1977 all over the world it seems.

[princealfie]

I've got 99 problems but a OS glitch aint one.

Word. LOL!

[takao]

So what on the first part. Playing in the world market isn't a measure of how good someone is as an entrepreneur. And the same thing goes for the obscure band you just mentioned.

well if they are obscure to you it's obviously not my fault ... but your intolerance ;)
that said apple _is_ a world wide company and thus should have somebody with a broader focus


Honestly, the only problem I have with everyone and this Jay-Z thing is their cultural ignorance and their feelings towards Apple choosing a musician/businessman that isn't from their country or favorite music genre.

surprise surprise people like to listen to music they like and want more of such music


If Apple did choose some guy from another genre would they have knowledge about hip hop, or metal, or jazz? Not if they are from Europe, and definitely not if they didn't have the amount of knowledge that Jay-Z has. I don't listen to too much of his music myself sans the albums that made him a lot of money, but you can't deny his talent as a successful musician and president of Def Jam.

well i still think that somebody who has experience in a broader field might be more interesting for apple (if such business guys are available) ... and what exactly has jay-z done to hip hop ? did he bring up a revolutionary new style or something ?
and talent as musician is entirely a matter of taste


As stated before, he has done more with the hip hop genre than Jobs has done with technology and did it in a shorter amount of time. And Jay-Z, being a hip hop artist, has reached more European Americans than the metal bands in Europe have.

and what does time frame have to do anything with it ? (jay-z has hardly a long experience as head of a label so you are somehow contradicting yourself with above "amount of knowledge")

and what the hell are european americans ?

[Digital Skunk]

well if they are obscure to you it's obviously not my fault ... but your intolerance ;)
that said apple _is_ a world wide company and thus should have somebody with a broader focus

surprise surprise people like to listen to music they like and want more of such music

well i still think that somebody who has experience in a broader field might be more interesting for apple (if such business guys are available) ... and what exactly has jay-z done to hip hop ? did he bring up a revolutionary new style or something ?
and talent as musician is entirely a matter of taste

and what does time frame have to do anything with it ? (jay-z has hardly a long experience as head of a label so you are somehow contradicting yourself with above "amount of knowledge")

and what the hell are european americans ?

Funny thing is that you haven't said anything to the contrary to what I said except the last statement. Every time someone here said "Why Jay-Z? He doesn't have this and that and he isn't good. They should use, place favorite musician here..." they have been saying opinionated statement. Any one you'd have in mind to do this job would be very limited in genres as well, and probably more so for an American based company.

No one has any facts that prove that Jay-Z is the wrong person or that he has any lack of knowledge on any genre of music nor do we have facts that matter to most people that would back him up, so the decision, if this rumor is true, is entirely up to Apple.

No musician from Europe would do a better job at running an American music label, so what the fuss? Time frame has everything to do with amount of knowledge my friend, and you missed the point. Jay-Z as businessman, from the time he sold his first album out of his trunk to the 2008, not just when he was president of Def Jam, and that has everything to do with knowledge of the industry. Like many other hard working people, he worked his way from the bottom to the top, which is something to note even if you don't like his music.

A European American is an American who has European decent.

[SheriffParker]

and talent as musician is entirely a matter of taste


No. Liking it is a matter of taste. Talent can be discussed outside of taste with someone who understands the history/culture/zeitgeist of said art. Why do you think the Beatles' albums will always be classics? Because of taste? Rubbish.

And Jay-Z does have some of the most influential and best music of the genre.

[Badandy]

well if they are obscure to you it's obviously not my fault ... but your intolerance ;)
that said apple _is_ a world wide company and thus should have somebody with a broader focus

I really don't see how anyone can have a broader focus. Maybe Rick Rubin, but besides that...


well i still think that somebody who has experience in a broader field might be more interesting for apple (if such business guys are available) ... and what exactly has jay-z done to hip hop ? did he bring up a revolutionary new style or something ?

Yes. Again, you keep commenting on a subject which you know nothing about.

and what does time frame have to do anything with it ? (jay-z has hardly a long experience as head of a label so you are somehow contradicting yourself with above "amount of knowledge")


Hardly a long experience? He was one of the first people to start an independent by refusing to sign with a larger label. He started Roc-A-Fella records in 1996 and built it into a business empire without any help from larger labels. When he allowed DefJam to purchase it, he became the President of the label and has introduced many top-selling acts and promoted them very well while at the same time not wasting dollars on acts that would not make business sense.




I mean. What's better than a music superstar who is very entrepreneurial and has office experience and success? Oh, I know what's better: An entrepreneurial music superstar with office experience and success who sings instead of raps and who uses guitar riffs instead of beats...

[SheriffParker]

Hardly a long experience? He was one of the first people to start an independent by refusing to sign with a larger label. He started Roc-A-Fella records in 1996 and built it into a business empire without any help from larger labels. When he allowed DefJam to purchase it, he became the President of the label and has introduced many top-selling acts and promoted them very well while at the same time not wasting dollars on acts that would not make business sense.




I mean. What's better than a music superstar who is very entrepreneurial and has office experience and success? Oh, I know what's better: An entrepreneurial music superstar with office experience and success who sings instead of raps and who uses guitar riffs instead of beats...

Exactly. I don't know what's so hard about this to understand. Some people just have no clue.

[slicecom]

I mean. What's better than a music superstar who is very entrepreneurial and has office experience and success? Oh, I know what's better: An entrepreneurial music superstar with office experience and success who sings instead of raps and who uses guitar riffs instead of beats...

/thread

[sowillo14]

I thought I read somewhere that (c)rap was on its way out. Why would Apple want to associate itself with such a degenerate form of noise. And JayZ a musician? Please, what instrument does he play, the record player? LOL

[thegman1234]

I thought I read somewhere that (c)rap was on its way out. Why would Apple want to associate itself with such a degenerate form of noise. And JayZ a musician? Please, what instrument does he play, the record player? LOL

Nope copyrighted rap is still around. However there is a lot of crap on the radio as well.

Jay-Z is without a doubt the best rapper alive, and it's unfortunate that there is so much horrible rap to give good rappers like him and Common (just to name a few) a bad name. So there, that's my rap defense.

On another note, though Jay-Z is a respectable partner, but however rap is not. You don't even have to leave this thread to see that there is less support for rap than there is support, and there's much hatred. Yes Jay-Z is a great business man, but there's too much bad rap for rap (pun intended) that I don't know if Jay-Z's credibility can reverse the amounts of bad press Apple would get. Granted Jay-Z has large amounts of credibility, but "Apple Partners with Rapper" isn't a good headline. I'm sorry, but it's a fact that there are more rap haters than fans.

[slicecom]

I thought I read somewhere that (c)rap was on its way out. Why would Apple want to associate itself with such a degenerate form of noise. And JayZ a musician? Please, what instrument does he play, the record player? LOL

People have been predicting the demise of Copyrighted Rap since the 80's but it's still around thanks to all the suburban white kids who buy it.

[Digital Skunk]

I thought I read somewhere that (c)rap was on its way out. Why would Apple want to associate itself with such a degenerate form of noise. And JayZ a musician? Please, what instrument does he play, the record player? LOL

Yeah... your definitely trying to start something bad on this thread.

Nope copyrighted rap is still around. However there is a lot of crap on the radio as well.

Jay-Z is without a doubt the best rapper alive, and it's unfortunate that there is so much horrible rap to give good rappers like him and Common (just to name a few) a bad name. So there, that's my rap defense.

On another note, though Jay-Z is a respectable partner, but however rap is not. You don't even have to leave this thread to see that there is less support for rap than there is support, and there's much hatred. Yes Jay-Z is a great business man, but there's too much bad rap for rap (pun intended) that I don't know if Jay-Z's credibility can reverse the amounts of bad press Apple would get. Granted Jay-Z has large amounts of credibility, but "Apple Partners with Rapper" isn't a good headline. I'm sorry, but it's a fact that there are more rap haters than fans.

Of course, something that people don't understand, and the intelligence level has decreased.

People have been predicting the demise of Copyrighted Rap since the 80's but it's still around thanks to all the suburban white kids who buy it.

Sad but true. The only way to really make money in this day and age is to get rich white people to accept it, and teenage white kids with no culture to adhere to are sucking it up wonderfully.

[bozs13]

I hope against all hopes that apple and jigga do this deal. I REAAAAALLY want it to happen, especially now with this Sony BMG deal leaving out iTunes.

I would love to cut these bastards (record companies) out of their money. I think they are scared ********!

[Project]

Nope copyrighted rap is still around. However there is a lot of crap on the radio as well.

Jay-Z is without a doubt the best rapper alive, and it's unfortunate that there is so much horrible rap to give good rappers like him and Common (just to name a few) a bad name. So there, that's my rap defense.

On another note, though Jay-Z is a respectable partner, but however rap is not. You don't even have to leave this thread to see that there is less support for rap than there is support, and there's much hatred. Yes Jay-Z is a great business man, but there's too much bad rap for rap (pun intended) that I don't know if Jay-Z's credibility can reverse the amounts of bad press Apple would get. Granted Jay-Z has large amounts of credibility, but "Apple Partners with Rapper" isn't a good headline. I'm sorry, but it's a fact that there are more rap haters than fans.

For this reason I would love the deal to go ahead. Just to see the reaction of rap "haters". Especially those on this board. I still remember when Kanye performed at a keynote a while back and the racial undertones in many peoples posts took me by surprise.

[thegman1234]

...
Of course, something that people don't understand, and the intelligence level has decreased....

What bothers me, is people can take bad rock, bad pop, bad jazz, bad anything and put it to the side. But most people will not do that with rap. Granted I don't listen to rap that much anymore, my tastes have changed, but there is GOOD rap, and BAD rap just like in every other genre. It's a common misconception that all rap is about degrading women and killing people, it's not.

[Digital Skunk]

What bothers me, is people can take bad rock, bad pop, bad jazz, bad anything and put it to the side. But most people will not do that with rap. Granted I don't listen to rap that much anymore, my tastes have changed, but there is GOOD rap, and BAD rap just like in every other genre. It's a common misconception that all rap is about degrading women and killing people, it's not.

There is that, and there is a clear delineation of Rap and Hip Hop. Most cultural absent people don't understand that at all. I am not a big rap fan, I am African American, and I am a HUGE rock and metal fan, and I understand this.

And you are very correct in saying that there are bad forms of all music. Personally I think Modest Mouse is AWFUL, and I have heard a lot of their music. I just don't like how the lead singer sounds, as is the case with a lot of alternative music of that type. But if Apple had them playing at a conference or made a deal with them it would be no difference for me.

It escapes me how someone could say that they wouldn't want to make Jay-Z head of anything related to Apple because he is a rapper/hip hop artist/African American, and that he wouldn't do a good job because he is not European and doesn't know European music. That is the ignorance that went into hiding after the 1950's and is peeking its head back out. If those that have a distaste for hip hop, rap, jazz, and other forms of music don't like it FINE, but don't discredit someone and their ability to run a company because they have built their fortune off of it.

[thegman1234]

There is that, and there is a clear delineation of Rap and Hip Hop. Most cultural absent people don't understand that at all. I am not a big rap fan, I am African American, and I am a HUGE rock and metal fan, and I understand this.

And you are very correct in saying that there are bad forms of all music. Personally I think Modest Mouse is AWFUL, and I have heard a lot of their music. I just don't like how the lead singer sounds, as is the case with a lot of alternative music of that type. But if Apple had them playing at a conference or made a deal with them it would be no difference for me.

It escapes me how someone could say that they wouldn't want to make Jay-Z head of anything related to Apple because he is a rapper/hip hop artist/African American, and that he wouldn't do a good job because he is not European and doesn't know European music. That is the ignorance that went into hiding after the 1950's and is peeking its head back out. If those that have a distaste for hip hop, rap, jazz, and other forms of music don't like it FINE, but don't discredit someone and their ability to run a company because they have built their fortune off of it.

If this was true, and Apple made a record label with Jay-Z running it or being affiliated with it, it would be just as successful, if not more successful than Rocafella Records. Jay-Z is not only a brilliant business man, but a great music connoisseur, and this would not be just a rap label which is I think another common misconception.

To be honest, my first thoughts on the topic were ill as well. But as I thought about it a little more, my ill thoughts changed, because I know that this situation isn't what my, and almost everyones first impression was.

The first impression on this is "Apple is associating with rap this is bad, they're ruining their image." And that's understandable because of the common image that rap tends to take. But after that first impression, it's time to open up and think outside of the box. If you don't, you wind up taking an ignorant stand on a topic like this.

When you start to think about how real rap isn't about guns and killing and slapping women, and you start to think about how brilliant Jay-Z is and how great his music is, you realize that this isn't about Apple and Bad Rap. It's about business and genius.

Unfortunately, not everyone can see this, and this will bring about much bad press for Apple, which is why I am STILL against this idea. Like I said, "Apple Partners with Rapper" is not a good headline. And honestly, I hate to play the race card, but a lot of ignorant people aren't going to like the fact that Apple is partnering with a black rapper.

Apple will most likely ruin their image with this move, which isn't right.

[Digital Skunk]

What if Apple partnered with Eminem? Or the Beastie Boys?

Any comments?

Do the Europeans know about those two artists? I bet Apple would get all the praise. :rolleyes:

[gizmodude]

This is a rumor !! I have seen and heard from various other sources that jay z is tied in with www.wyplanet.com a digitial distribution site that says they are launching january 15,2008. They are the first site that will pay artists and users just to promote the site. They say in the music circles that jay z and a unnamed big country star are funding the site. either way the site sounds cool because all the music will be for free download. i i knew the apple and jay z was just a rumor

[thegman1234]

What if Apple partnered with Eminem? Or the Beastie Boys?

Any comments?

Do the Europeans know about those two artists? I bet Apple would get all the praise. :rolleyes:

I agree with you.

[SthrnCmfrtr]

The decline of intelligent human beings since 1977 is astounding. Nothing more. Jay-Z has 'as many' platinum albums, sure. How much larger is the population now.. and furthermore how many of them have good taste? How many would consider Jay-Z to be in good taste? Not I.

1977? The height of Disco, with Saturday Night Fever blowing everything else out of the water? :P The year before Van Halen was released? When "Bohemian Rhapsody" was declared the best single made since 1952? Or are we talking more about Never Mind the Bollocks, Here's the Sex Pistols, which ushered in an era of amateurish and shoddily-recorded (but elitist) music?

Please. Sales have never been about good taste, and many of the most successful artists of past generations are generally considered to be crap by people without their head jammed firmly up their own sphincters. The Billboard number one single of 1963, the Beatles' big debut year, was "Sugar Shack" by Jimmy Gilmer. Big artists in the 1960's included Tommy Roe, the Archies, Gary Puckett, Paul Revere and the Raiders, the Shangri-Las, and Brian "Yellow Polka-dot Bikini" Hyland. The 1950's? Two words: Ricky and Nelson. The 80's, with Cinderella and Poison and Bon Jovi and Motley Crue and Flock of Frickin' Seagulls?

Popular music has never, ever, ever been about good taste. It's popular if it's catchy, concise, and superficial. Good stuff occasionally breaks through: Dark Side of the Moon, for instance. But more often, the most successful albums are, well, Thriller. And Abba über alles. Remember Abba, for they are the reason that no intelligent life in the universe has yet tried to contact us.

As much as I'd like it if the music industry were run by Brian Eno, Richard D. James, a hybridized clone of David Gilmour and Roger Waters, David Bowie, the ghost of Miles Davis, Tom Waits, Nick Cave, and Richie Hawtin, it's not going to happen. None of these folks are businessmen, whatever their talents.

[megfilmworks]

Jay-Zs musical contribution to the world far exceeds Beyonces. Reasonable Doubt and the Blueprint alone does this.
Ask the average person who Beyonce is and they will know. Reasonable Doubt and the Blueprint won't register to anyone but hard core fans. And Beyonce has more talent in her little pinky than all the hip hoppers combined.

[megfilmworks]

and talent as musician is entirely a matter of taste

Talent is not a matter of taste. It is a simple matter of technical ability.
i.e.
can you sing the notes in tune, or play your instrument with skill and dexterity.
What someones creates with their talent is a matter of taste.
If you are a musician you can see that there is no comparison between a rapper or hip hop artist and true skilled talents;
like The Beatles, or Floyd, Clapton, or Motown or a singer like Aguilera or Beyonce. You may not like their choices but
these guys had/have chops, not Bling.

[Badandy]

I understand you're a troll, so I won't get all enraged, but I will kindly address your points.

And Beyonce has more talent in her little pinky than all the hip hoppers combined.

Beyoncé is very talented, but this statement is just not true. I think that you misconstrue talent with the type of music that you like to hear.

Talent is not a matter of taste. It is a simple matter of technical ability.

Agreed.


If you are a musician you can see that there is no comparison between a rapper or hip hop artist and true skilled talents;
like The Beatles, or Floyd, Clapton, or Motown or a singer like Aguilera or Beyonce. You may not like their choices but
these guys had/have chops, not Bling.

If you are a musician with a closed mind, then you will see exactly what you want to see. But if you look at hip hop artists such as Jay-Z, Eminem, or even Tupac (not nearly my favorite), they produce great music. Sure, it may not be sung to your favorite guitar riffs, but instead of discarding it as talentless, why don't you evaluate what they are doing? So when Jay-Z creates a song about street life or about becoming successful but still not being fulfilled, take it as a poem or a piece of literature spoken with near-perfect timing and rhythm over a beat. It's quite pleasant, and if you try understand the lyrics, internal rhyming, the wordplay, the double meaning, and the metaphors you won't be so ignorant as to say that "hip hoppers" in general are not as talented as some of your favorite musicians.


EDIT: The more people that badmouth hip-hop as being talentless, the more ignorant they seem in the eyes of the people who actually know what they're talking about. I don't hate rock at all. In fact, Stairway to Heaven, to me, is the best song of all time. The progression, lyrics, technical ability, and his voice, are all flawless to me.

I don't use Nickelback as a justification for disliking the entirety of your favorite genre of music, so you shouldn't be so quick to use Lil' Jon and Soulja Boy as a legitimate argument to discredit another entire genre of music.

[thegman1234]

...Thriller....

HEY YOU!! THRILLER WAS GREAT!!

Haha lol. No seriously though I do like Thriller.

The fact of the matter is, the best written and best composed music, isn't always the best to listen to. And if you don't play catchy music on the radio, no one will listen. Popular music isn't about being good from a musical standpoint, it's about being catchy and easy or fun to listen to.

There's a lot of well written music that never gains popularity, which is unfortunate, but it's not all the great to listen to, and honestly, what's a good song without any listeners.

What bothers me is when songs that are not only catchy and touching, but are actually well written pieces of music never get recognition.

Take modern rock band Saosin for example. They have all the right pieces to be a great band, and then some. Not only is their singer great, but the lyrics are beautiful. Their drummer is nothing short of amazing, and the bassist and guitarists are great at well. And to top it off, the music sounds great. But, because they're a heavier rock band, they get no recognition.

Another great example from the rock genre is The Red Jumpsuit Apparatus. Not the best band, but hey they're a pretty good band. But you wouldn't know it because their most popular song is nowhere near their best. But it's their easiest to play on the radio because it's more pop and less rock.

The quality of music on the radio is deteriorating rapidly. I wish they would put the Goo Goo Dolls and Third Eye Blind back on the radio, I wanna hear Semi Charmed Life on Z100 again.

And I absolutely HATE it when people my age refuse to listen to the music from their parents eras. I'm almost 20, (hoping for a good birthday present from Macworld lol) and I love music from the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, and of course the 90's that I grew up with. That's more than double my own age in years of music.

Don't get me wrong I like a lot of modern music as well, but;
I still think that Bohemian Rhapsody is the best song ever written.
Don't Stop Me Now is the best driving song.
The only good version of Mack The Knife is Bobby Darin's.
Axl Rose has the most distinct (DISTINCT) voice of all time.
Slash might be a god.
Pete Townshend is the ultimate guitar smasher.
Richie Valens had more talent as a high schooler than any high school band.
Guess Who still has the most confusing name ever.
And The Tokens had voices that could put a lion to sleep.

Check my iPod, the only music you won't find on there is Death Metal, Jazz, and Disco.

[thegman1234]

...So when Jay-Z creates a song about street life or about becoming successful but still not being fulfilled, take it as a poem or a piece of literature spoken with near-perfect timing and rhythm over a beat. It's quite pleasant, and if you try understand the lyrics, internal rhyming, the wordplay, the double meaning, and the metaphors you won't be so ignorant as to say that "hip hoppers" in general are not as talented as some of your favorite musicians.

I remember the first time I broke down Encore and analyzed it. "On the low but the yacht got a triple deck. But when you young what the **** you expect?" That's genius, it has so many meanings, especially because one of Jay-Z's nicknames is Young.

I always thought instead of saying, "After me there should be no more..." he should have said "After me there WILL be no more...". He's really one of a kind.

Sorry for the double post.

[takao]

What if Apple partnered with Eminem? Or the Beastie Boys?

Any comments?

i would say the exact same thing that it is too narrow minded (and i own 2 Beastie Boys albums from back in the day when i was a teenager)

Do the Europeans know about those two artists? I bet Apple would get all the praise. :rolleyes:

yeah those two have been more on the popular side ... but in general the market has changed a lot in the last years ... it has become more and more popular and successful to rap in your own language(like german) than listening to imported hip hop... in germany especially since Berlin actually got a more aggressive scene which made a lot of imported aggressive hip hop (which has been a weak point for years) not that needed anymore

it would make much more sense to come out with multiple different artists/entrepreneur each heading their own group in a label.. otherwise you would be betting all on one number

but no i forgot ... i'm stupid and a racist too (i found the multiple playing of the race card rather shameful for MR)

[slicecom]

(i found the multiple playing of the race card rather shameful for MR)

Sorry you feel that way, but I found the multiple Jay Z bashings when he is one of the biggest and most powerful names in the music industry of all time to be shameful, and still contend that it would not have happened if he was white, and I'm not black.

[Digital Skunk]

Honestly... I am not screaming racism or anything that harsh. In the circle of the knowledgeable it IS racism but it's one that many won't understand. To make it easy for those that are covered by the veil, I will let you know that it's just ignorance. The fact that Eminem and Elvis Presley made their livings on African American music and people love them, but consider their original Black counterparts inferior only because it's a slightly different and RAW version of the genre is what is really going on.

There are rappers in other countries, there is a Jewish rapper, and there are plenty of German rappers and I guarantee that they won't get as much flak as Jay-Z, NOT only because they are of a different race, but because they are rapping to their own culture and their culture understands them. When those same people look towards the culture that created the music to begin with, and hear what the RAW form of it sounds like they turn a deaf ear, and end up making themselves very ignorant to where that form of music comes from, and under what pretenses it was made.

Years pass and all of a sudden their children pick it up as a form of rebellion of their parents and their culture, and as a fad and it picks up momentum once again. Their parents put a negative label on it and WAMO! you have this thread on this site bad mouthing a talented African American who brought himself out of a life of crime and into a very successful life. Not praising the guy, but he earned his place.

Jay-Z is a Hip-Hop artist, NOT A RAPPER! Wu-Tang Clan is a Rap band, just like Snoop Dog is a rapper. Tupac was a Rapper, and Common is a Hip-Hop artist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_and_roll

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kora_%28instrument%29

http://www.leeds.ac.uk/collections/string.htm

If you can tolerate the amount of African American music watch Dreamsgirls which mimics the real life of Diana Ross and the Supremes.

[megfilmworks]

I think people keep mistaking taste for musical ability.
I love some rap, most sucks.IMHO (misogynistic, materialistic)
But that is an opinion based on taste.
Don't confuse rap with music.
Hip Hop does have some musicality in it.
In musical ability there is no controversy. You can either play an instrument to a certain level or sing in tune or you can't.

JayZ may be a great poet and a great artist but a musical talent he is not.
Miles Davis must be rolling over in his grave at that thought.

[SheriffParker]

I think people keep mistaking taste for musical ability.
I love some rap, most sucks.IMHO (misogynistic, materialistic)
But that is an opinion based on taste.
Don't confuse rap with music.
Hip Hop does have some musicality in it.
In musical ability there is no controversy. You can either play an instrument to a certain level or sing in tune or you can't.

JayZ may be a great poet and a great artist but a musical talent he is not.
Miles Davis must be rolling over in his grave at that thought.

Wow, I can't believe you are trying to define what music is for the rest of us. Get a clue man.

[Digital Skunk]

I think people keep mistaking taste for musical ability.
I love some rap, most sucks.IMHO (misogynistic, materialistic)
But that is an opinion based on taste.
Don't confuse rap with music.
Hip Hop does have some musicality in it.
In musical ability there is no controversy. You can either play an instrument to a certain level or sing in tune or you can't.

JayZ may be a great poet and a great artist but a musical talent he is not.
Miles Davis must be rolling over in his grave at that thought.

I can tell by this statement that you don't listen to too much music. I don't listen to a lot of rap and hip hop NOW, because I have listened to a LOT of it in the early 80's and 90's up til the addition of gangster rap which is where a majority of the angst from other cultures comes from. In reality, there isn't much misogynistic and materialistic undertones in hip hop and rap. A lot of it describes the struggle of African American's in a society that doesn't understand them and wishes to have nothing to do with them.

Crap... if I keep on talking people on this forum may hear a lot of things they won't understand.

[Project]

Ask the average person who Beyonce is and they will know. Reasonable Doubt and the Blueprint won't register to anyone but hard core fans. And Beyonce has more talent in her little pinky than all the hip hoppers combined.

Rubbish.

Take Lauryn Hill. She can sing, write, produce, and play numerous musical instruments. She has had a major part in two classic albums.

Take the recently deceased J Dilla. Pretty much a founder of the neo soul sound in the mid 90s. Played numerous instruments. Major part of numerous classic albums (Labcabincalifornia, Donuts, Like Water for Chocolate, Fantastic vol 2.)

I could go on - Kanye, Common, Q-Tip, Dre, Quik, Timbaland, Just Blaze, Mos Def, ?uestlove. etc etc etc.

Beyonce is.... a good singer.

And my original point about musical contribution has nothing to do with how recognisable Beyonce/Jay-Z are. No Destinys Child album will be held to as much esteem as Blueprint and Reasonable Doubt.


Jay-Z is a Hip-Hop artist, NOT A RAPPER! Wu-Tang Clan is a Rap band, just like Snoop Dog is a rapper. Tupac was a Rapper, and Common is a Hip-Hop artist.

Come on. I know you are using this to demean "rappers", and that's BS.

HipHop is a lifestyle. A way of life. Rap is a part of it. Jay-Z, Wu, Common, 2Pac were all rappers. They are all Hiphop.

[megfilmworks]

Wow, I can't believe you are trying to define what music is for the rest of us. Get a clue man.For the clueless, I did not create the definition.
All art is not music. And everything that sells CDs is not art.

[megfilmworks]

I can tell by this statement that you don't listen to too much music. I don't listen to a lot of rap and hip hop NOW, because I have listened to a LOT of it in the early 80's and 90's up til the addition of gangster rap which is where a majority of the angst from other cultures comes from. In reality, there isn't much misogynistic and materialistic undertones in hip hop and rap. A lot of it describes the struggle of African American's in a society that doesn't understand them and wishes to have nothing to do with them.

Crap... if I keep on talking people on this forum may hear a lot of things they won't understand.To tell someone who has worked in the music business their whole life and knows many of the artists we are discussing that they don't listen to much music is laughable. But I digress. Rap and Hip hop are viable art forms. Let's see which ones can play an instrument beyond 1st grade level or sing one note on key. I put some rap in the same position as Britney.
Its all about the money and the "uneducated consumer" as Zappa would say.

[thegman1234]

....Let's see which ones can play an instrument beyond 1st grade level or sing one note on key. I put some rap in the same position as Britney.
Its all about the money and the "uneducated consumer" as Zappa would say.

Some rap belongs in the same position as Britney. Some rock does, some jazz does, some disco does, some r&b does, some blues does, some rock and roll does, some of every genre stinks. You're generalizing rap and only rap, and that's why people are calling you ignorant.

The dictionary widget defines musician in two ways. One of them is they way you're defining it; "a person who plays a musical instrument, esp. professionally: aspiring rock and pop musicians."

The other way it's defined as is, and I also quote, "a person who is talented or skilled in music: your father was a fine musician."

According to the dictionary, good rappers would be musicians. You can't argue with the dictionary.

[Badandy]

Rap and Hip hop are viable art forms. Let's see which ones can play an instrument beyond 1st grade level or sing one note on key.
Slice already addressed this well, many hip hop artists play a multitude of instruments. But in response to your quote, let's see how well some of your favorite musicians can rap...


I put some rap in the same position as Britney.


Did any of us disagree with that? I'll put some of your favorite genre of music in the same position as Britney.

[Digital Skunk]

To tell someone who has worked in the music business their whole life and knows many of the artists we are discussing that they don't listen to much music is laughable. But I digress. Rap and Hip hop are viable art forms. Let's see which ones can play an instrument beyond 1st grade level or sing one note on key. I put some rap in the same position as Britney.
Its all about the money and the "uneducated consumer" as Zappa would say.

HA! Yeah... on the Internet we can be whatever we want to be... :rolleyes: If you did work in the music industry you probably wouldn't have such a distaste and crass opinion about an genre that is making billions and effecting suburban American more than the rest of the nation.

Either way... let's hear some of your favorite genres and artists so we can bash them and bring out the fact that many of them can't play that well either. Not to mention that many vocalists can't play instruments either, and a hip hop artists is a vocalist.

p.s. I do want to thank you for keeping things civil.

[thegman1234]

....Not to mention that many vocalists can't play instruments either, and a hip hop artists is a vocalist.

Excellent point.

[SheriffParker]

For the clueless, I did not create the definition.

Um, yes you did. See here:
.
Don't confuse rap with music.

How is it that you have found this definition of music that excludes rap?


All art is not music. And everything that sells CDs is not art.

Yeah but that doesn't have anything to do with your statement that Rap is not music... which is quite a ridiculous statement IMO.

[megfilmworks]

HA! Yeah... on the Internet we can be whatever we want to be... :rolleyes: If you did work in the music industry you probably wouldn't have such a distaste and crass opinion about an genre that is making billions and effecting suburban American more than the rest of the nation.

Either way... let's hear some of your favorite genres and artists so we can bash them and bring out the fact that many of them can't play that well either. Not to mention that many vocalists can't play instruments either, and a hip hop artists is a vocalist.
p.s. I do want to thank you for keeping things civil.
That is true...but I have no favorite music except good.
You can believe what you want but, I own a recording studio, a mixing theatre and have three publishing companies, have multiple gold and platinum awards and a Grammy. I never said that rap is not art (I have worked with several well know rap artists on soundtracks for major pictures) or that I do not like some types of rap. But playing quantizing drum machines and samplers is not the same as playing instruments. I see great musicians everyday who can't get contracts because the money is in rap and hip hop.
All I say is Rap is art or as they called it in the 50's "beat poetry"..
not music.
And by the way I didn't get into the music biz to make money. I hate most commercial music. I got into the biz as a result of being a musician and my love for all good music genres.
By the way the voice is an instrument, the oldest one on earth!!
And, I as well thank you for your civil debate.

[Badandy]

But playing quantizing drum machines and samplers is not the same as playing instruments.

But rappers don't play quantizing drum machines. They put their vocals over them.


By the way the voice is an instrument, the oldest one on earth!!
And, I as well thank you for your civil debate.

I know it might not fit your strict definition, but I'd say that some rappers have better voices than others. For example, Jay-Z's effortless vocals over beats is much more pleasing to me than Lil' Wayne's.

I just don't understand how someone can say that an artform which requires vocals and intense lyricism (often many more words than in one rock song (excluding Thick As A Brick among others) is not music. I mean, I play it in my car from my iPhone and it sounds like music to me.

[Digital Skunk]

That is true...but I have no favorite music except good.
You can believe what you want but, I own a recording studio, a mixing theatre and have three publishing companies, have multiple gold and platinum awards and a Grammy. I never said that rap is not art (I have worked with several well know rap artists on soundtracks for major pictures) or that I do not like some types of rap. But playing quantizing drum machines and samplers is not the same as playing instruments. I see great musicians everyday who can't get contracts because the money is in rap and hip hop.
All I say is Rap is art or as they called it in the 50's "beat poetry"..
not music.
And by the way I didn't get into the music biz to make money. I hate most commercial music. I got into the biz as a result of being a musician and my love for all good music genres.
By the way the voice is an instrument, the oldest one on earth!!
And, I as well thank you for your civil debate.

Now you're speaking to me! First came the voice, then the stomping of feet and clapping of hands. I am no musician but I love good music as well... I take that back... I played Sousaphone in highschool and for three weeks at college so I am a musician.

I believe you are a audio professional as well. As for the great musicians everyday who can't get contracts.... sorry man... that's the business. Not that I agree with it or don't sympathize for them, but it's that way in every industry. I spend half my time freelancing because journalism isn't the way is used to be. And now that any grandma douchebag can get a Nikon D40 and hit the button a photographer is a dime a dozen. Times are hard.

Like we said before... there is plenty of music to hate and rap is one of them. When it comes to a possible, rumor of a deal with Apple being set up with Jay-Z, don't think that he can't handle it, or cater to other genre's because he was/is a hip hop/rap artist. If he ran Def Jam and Rocawear into the ground and bankrupted a few companies of course, but if they were successful and he sold one for 240 million dollars yet still oversees much of production give him his due.

[megfilmworks]

Now you're speaking to me! First came the voice, then the stomping of feet and clapping of hands. I am no musician but I love good music as well... I take that back... I played Sousaphone in highschool and for three weeks at college so I am a musician.
Then you are probably a better musician than Jay Z lol. Anyway, I like your argument. Posted this just for fun, as I'm sure someone will say its photoshopped. I am a voting member.

But one last thought...if Jay Z has created this much controversy here, how will it help Apple to have him run their supposed new record label?

[Digital Skunk]

Then you are probably a better musician than Jay Z lol. Anyway, I like your argument. Posted this just for fun, as I'm sure someone will say its photoshopped. I am a voting member.

But one last thought...if Jay Z has created this much controversy here, how will it help Apple to have him run their supposed new record label?

Honestly I hope Apple doesn't start a record label of any kind. They should be working on the plethora of issues they have with their hardware and Professional software.

If they do start one however and Apple does get Jay-Z to run it then I know that it will start even more controversy than this thread has. The problem in my eyes, is where the controversy comes from... and I will be frank:

Is Jay-Z a talented businessman and artist regardless of how some may feel about the genre he selected to perform in?

OR

Is Jay-Z an African American artist that should remain as such... a performer for rich suburban kids... and not step into an area that I am sure many think is deemed only for white Americans.

I am not saying that you feel that way, but that would be the underlying feeling if this rumor turned out to be true, and many African Americans may feel that way as well. Don't ask me to back that up, that's just how I feel. ;)

Nice award by the way, I'd post an image proving I was in the journalism field but I don't know what to shoot.

[megfilmworks]

I'm sure that may be an underlying issue, but not with everyone...just look at Obama's big victory last night!
And thanks, but that silly pic is my invitation to this years's Grammy awards not my Grammy award.
Anyway thanks for the stimulating debate.

[LoganT]

I really don't understand how someone can say that rap music isn't music. When you listen to Jay-Z talk you know that he's talking. When you listen to Jay Z rap you know that he's rapping. It's quite easy to distinguish. Plus if it isn't music that would mean that most people could do it, and most people can't (well not good anyway).

[Klaxons2012]

But playing quantizing drum machines and samplers is not the same as playing instruments.


I actually agree with alot of the points that you've brought out. Jay-Z isn't a musician, he's not even a producer. But I have to respectfully disagree with your viewpoint concerning drum machines. Samplers you actually have a case for because you're pretty much just sequencing the samples to form a composition, I get that. But I believe that a drum machine is an instrument. The learning curve is nowhere near as great as it would be for an actual drum set or a guitar, not any person can sit down at a drum machine and lay down a pattern at the drop of a hat either.

You have to be musically inclined in order to create a successful rhythm and I think that's enough to call it an instrument.

Now, i'm sure you know this being an accomplished musician, but rap isn't just about samplers. Alot of musicians actually use live instruments and choirs for their songs. Producer Just Blaze is one of those who still use big bands and a large live sound to compose a hip hop song. I think Rap or Hip Hop as a music is like electronic music and dance music, a product of it's society. With society evolving into the digital age, so will music.

Thanks for your thoughts on this debate, it's been pretty enjoyable.

[Klaxons2012]

I really don't understand how someone can say that rap music isn't music. When you listen to Jay-Z talk you know that he's talking. When you listen to Jay Z rap you know that he's rapping. It's quite easy to distinguish. Plus if it isn't music that would mean that most people could do it, and most people can't (well not good anyway).

But there's two different parts to rap. The Rapping and the beats. The producer is the musician of the two. Jay-Z is like was mentioned earlier the vocalist. Jay-Z is lyrically sound and should be considered Poet Laureate of Brooklyn. But he's not a musician. If you watch Fade to Black, when he goes to the studio to lay down tracks, he isn't behind a synthesizer like Timbaland was, he wasn't in front of Pro Tools like Pharell was. He was listening to beats they created and songs they composed.

I think not considering Jay-Z a musician is valid, but not calling his final output music is an injustice.

[Klaxons2012]

I'm sure that may be an underlying issue, but not with everyone...just look at Obama's big victory last night!
And thanks, but that silly pic is my invitation to this years's Grammy awards not my Grammy award.
Anyway thanks for the stimulating debate.

Yeah, I doubt Barack Obama has been arrested for selling crack in Brooklyn. That could be the GOP's "October Surprise", but I doubt it. I don't think Jay-Z's presidency would be a big issue because his presidency with Island-Def Jam wasn't much of an issue. He won't be making most of the music related decisions, he'll be more of a spokesman/figurehead. Attaching Jay-Z and his music to your product will make you a good load of money.

[DMann]

Yeah, I doubt Barack Obama has been arrested for selling crack in Brooklyn. That could be the GOP's "October Surprise", but I doubt it. I don't think Jay-Z's presidency would be a big issue because his presidency with Island-Def Jam wasn't much of an issue. He won't be making most of the music related decisions, he'll be more of a spokesman/figurehead. Attaching Jay-Z and his music to your product will make you a good load of money.

The greatest surprise will be that he would be immediately forgiven for both smoking and inhaling. His charismatic charm and persuasive vision will make him impervious to mudslinging.

[megfilmworks]

I actually agree with alot of the points that you've brought out. Jay-Z isn't a musician, he's not even a producer. But I have to respectfully disagree with your viewpoint concerning drum machines. Samplers you actually have a case for because you're pretty much just sequencing the samples to form a composition, I get that. But I believe that a drum machine is an instrument. The learning curve is nowhere near as great as it would be for an actual drum set or a guitar, not any person can sit down at a drum machine and lay down a pattern at the drop of a hat either.

You have to be musically inclined in order to create a successful rhythm and I think that's enough to call it an instrument.

Now, i'm sure you know this being an accomplished musician, but rap isn't just about samplers. Alot of musicians actually use live instruments and choirs for their songs. Producer Just Blaze is one of those who still use big bands and a large live sound to compose a hip hop song. I think Rap or Hip Hop as a music is like electronic music and dance music, a product of it's society. With society evolving into the digital age, so will music.

Thanks for your thoughts on this debate, it's been pretty enjoyable.
I agree, good points by you.
It is just that, a debate, with many "grey areas".
(No pun intended if you have ever been to Amsterdam) lol

[Virgil-TB2]

Jay-Z? Can't they do better than him? They should lay out some big bucks and get an established legend... maybe Gene Simmons. :)Yah, cause an egomaniac washed-up, also-ran rockstar with a foot long tongue who endlessly talks about his sexual "conquests" is a real good image for Apple to get behind.
:rolleyes:

[Virgil-TB2]

Of course I'll play the card, though others are playing it quietly with all the negative ideas.

This rumor doesn't really say exactly what Jay-Z will be doing. Heck, he could be head of a Hip-Hop area for an Apple "record label". We don't know, but hell...I'd rather have Jay-Z (who has some skill) rather than a phoney rapper with none like 50 Cent.

Anyway, when Steve Jobs announces that Trent Reznor is also on board, most will change their thoughts.

:apple:I know what your saying here and I kind of agree a bit, but I think you are mistaking the "hip-hop card" for the race card maybe.

I think for a lot of people, (right or wrong), JayZ is synonymous with hip-hop music and that hip-hop is kinda synonymous with the death of the conventional music industry.

A huge amount of very normal non-racist people see hip-hop as mostly ***** and somewhat blame hip-hop and "modern soul" artists for all of the great excesses that brought the industry to the state it is now. Hip-hop is a culture that is inescapably tied to consumption, excess, and personal grandeur at the expense of almost anything else. A lot of people are just tired of it (it's been around for a long, long time now), and a lot of people are looking for something new.

So, I think that there is a perception that if it's a JayZ label, it's a hip-hop only label and IMO that's where a lot of the bad feeling is coming from.

As much as I know what your talking about and empathise, I must admit my first thought on hearing this news was ... "wake me up when a real label starts on iTunes."

Maybe this will be it, maybe not. He's certainly a very smart guy to get in on the ground floor of this sort of thing and certainly has a lot more talent than most of the others in the same genres. Here's hoping that he can broaden things so that it's more of an inclusive label than an exclusive label.

[Klaxons2012]

The greatest surprise will be that he would be immediately forgiven for both smoking and inhaling. His charismatic charm and persuasive vision will make him impervious to mudslinging.

God, I hope a Fox News staffer doesn't frequent MacRumors. I might've penned their lead story. :eek:

[Klaxons2012]

I agree, good points by you.
It is just that, a debate, with many "grey areas".
(No pun intended if you have ever been to Amsterdam) lol

*laughs*

[thegman1234]

I actually agree with alot of the points that you've brought out. Jay-Z isn't a musician, he's not even a producer. But I have to respectfully disagree with your viewpoint concerning drum machines. Samplers you actually have a case for because you're pretty much just sequencing the samples to form a composition, I get that. But I believe that a drum machine is an instrument. The learning curve is nowhere near as great as it would be for an actual drum set or a guitar, not any person can sit down at a drum machine and lay down a pattern at the drop of a hat either.

You have to be musically inclined in order to create a successful rhythm and I think that's enough to call it an instrument.

Now, i'm sure you know this being an accomplished musician, but rap isn't just about samplers. Alot of musicians actually use live instruments and choirs for their songs. Producer Just Blaze is one of those who still use big bands and a large live sound to compose a hip hop song. I think Rap or Hip Hop as a music is like electronic music and dance music, a product of it's society. With society evolving into the digital age, so will music.

Thanks for your thoughts on this debate, it's been pretty enjoyable.

You make some great points, however, there's one thing I disagree with you on. A vocalist IS by one definition, a musician. Also many consider the voice to be a musical instrument.

Just Blaze is a GREAT example to give for Hip-Hop producers that use instruments. Also, Rubin provided Jay-Z with an altered version of one of his older rock beats for 99 Problems.

[bluedevil14]

Not happening, it would alienate other record companies.

[Badandy]

Not happening, it would alienate other record companies.

You mean to pull their stuff from iTunes?

[i305]

JayZ and his wife beyonce is plotting on Apple. GET READY 2008!

http://i1.tinypic.com/7ye9xrp.jpg

and singer Beyonce is leaving SONY after her next album. Hmmm, maybe shes signing with her husband and Steve new label? :eek:

[monkeybongo]

1. Hip hop is a legitimate music genre (even if you don't like it).
2. Jay-Z is a popular and marketable hip-hop artist (even if you don't like him).

I think the real topic is if Jay-z would be a suitable CEO for a music division for Apple, not if he has arguable talent.

He does have previous experience as an music executive and also has a large network within the entertainment industry. He is also incredibely marketable as a brand on his own and would bring visibility and instant credibility to the label. They would also have the advantage with the label being instantly popular and would draw a large amount of talent.

Personally, I think the rumour is stupid. Apple makes more sense to make partnerships. I think if it did make music, other labels would be less likely to join iTunes simply based on the competition.

[diamond.g]

A huge amount of very normal non-racist people see hip-hop as mostly ***** and somewhat blame hip-hop and "modern soul" artists for all of the great excesses that brought the industry to the state it is now. Hip-hop is a culture that is inescapably tied to consumption, excess, and personal grandeur at the expense of almost anything else. A lot of people are just tired of it (it's been around for a long, long time now), and a lot of people are looking for something new.

I think everyone here needs to watch Hip Hop: Beyond Beats and Rhymes (http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/hiphop/film.htm) in order to understand why music has basically broken down. The majority likes hip hop, that is why it is still around. Jadakiss said something in the film about how if he sells 1 million albums the first 200k may be from Blacks (as he says) but the rest are from (again as he says) Whites. That statement didn't shock me as much as why the music is popular. People interviewed that listened to hip hop that were white claimed it gave them insight to a life they never have lived. They felt cool and connected with Black people by listening to the music. That is what suprised me.

So in the end it will take the majority to get tired of that type of music before it will go away. Jay-Z becoming the head of an Apple ran label should not worry folks. I doubt that means the label will only put out hip hop. It just seems like they are trying to get someone who can tap into that majority that keep hip hop alive.

[Digital Skunk]

I think people put too much emphasis on music and it's effect on the market. People tried blaming Marilyn Manson for Columbine when it was really just the ignorant rich parent's fault. The same can be said for Hip-Hop. And for the guy that put Hip-Hop and Modern Soul into the same category please get educated on the differences between the genres. No one will EVER put Heavy Metal and Classic Rock together as the same type or form of music, please don't do the same with Hip Hop and Neo/Modern Soul, the two are nothing alike and don't even come close to reaching the same type of people or the same number of people.

Hip-Hop isn't the reason for the state of the music industry and it isn't responsible for the decline or state of "conventional music" (whatever the hell that is :rolleyes:) The only person responsible for that is the audience the music caters to the most, who are giving the form of music the money fuel it needs to grow and we all know who that audience with a lot of money is. As was said a million times in a million different ways, if you don't like the music and what it stands for, like Marilyn Manson, then don't buy them and show the music companies that we aren't interested in that form of music anymore.

Anyone remember Disco?

[diamond.g]

I think people put too much emphasis on music and it's effect on the market. People tried blaming Marilyn Manson for Columbine when it was really just the ignorant rich parent's fault. The same can be said for Hip-Hop. And for the guy that put Hip-Hop and Modern Soul into the same category please get educated on the differences between the genres. No one will EVER put Heavy Metal and Classic Rock together as the same type or form of music, please don't do the same with Hip Hop and Neo/Modern Soul, the two are nothing alike and don't even come close to reaching the same type of people or the same number of people.

Hip-Hop isn't the reason for the state of the music industry and it isn't responsible for the decline or state of "conventional music" (whatever the hell that is :rolleyes:) The only person responsible for that is the audience the music caters to the most, who are giving the form of music the money fuel it needs to grow and we all know who that audience with a lot of money is. As was said a million times in a million different ways, if you don't like the music and what it stands for, like Marilyn Manson, then don't buy them and show the music companies that we aren't interested in that form of music anymore.

Anyone remember Disco? Didn't Disco basically turn into House?

[Digital Skunk]

Didn't Disco basically turn into House?

Yeah it did, much like all forms of older music mutate into something different. The style of disco is gone but the remnants remain as house and to some extent techno. I am no music junky however, so I could be wrong.

But Hip-Hop in the early 80s turned into rap during the early 90s, then the God awful, and where many uneducated listeners get their angst from, "gangster rap" during the mid 90s with the rise of Snoop Dog, WuTang Clan, etc. Now we are seeing the return of true Hip-Hop, which Jay-Z is really a part of, that really stresses capitalism at its finest on one end, and the effects of capitalism on the other.

For those that want to know, Jazz/Blues turned into R&B (rhythm & blues) in the late 80s, then soul in the 90s. Neo/Modern soul came about in the mid to late 90s with artists like Eryka Badu, Lauren Hill, Common, etc and the genre can express anything from bad times to a call to all people to rise up and make a difference in their lives. It's really a very diverse form of music which can be adapted to fit many messages.

Rock does the same thing, but it's hard rifts and fast beats tend to make it only fit certain messages. That's why there are so many categories of Rock, Soft, Classic, Metal, Alternative, Hard, etc. that can express those many different forms.

R&B and Neo/Modern Soul can express all of them and still remain in that genre.

[beatzfreak]

Yeah it did, much like all forms of older music mutate into something different. The style of disco is gone but the remnants remain as house and to some extent techno. I am no music junky however, so I could be wrong.

Kind of, but house like hip hop has many influences because of the way it's produced.

But Hip-Hop in the early 80s turned into rap during the early 90s, then the God awful, and where many uneducated listeners get their angst from, "gangster rap" during the mid 90s with the rise of Snoop Dog, WuTang Clan, etc. Now we are seeing the return of true Hip-Hop, which Jay-Z is really a part of, that really stresses capitalism at its finest on one end, and the effects of capitalism on the other.

Just to add. Early hip hop got its roots from many genres. Disco, funk, soul, jazz, rock and early techno. Basically any song that had a few bars of a good beat. IMO, a true art form. And yes, the music is getting back to true hip hop, but the bragging and boasting in the lyrics is something I personally can't relate to and, frankly, am extremely bored with.


For those that want to know, Jazz/Blues turned into R&B (rhythm & blues) in the late 80s, then soul in the 90s.

This is a little misleading. R&B came from jazz, blues and gospel in the late 1940s and has been around ever since. Disco and funk were off-shoots of R&B.
Post disco and funk R&B AKA Contemporary R&B is influenced by funk, disco and early techno.

As for Jay Z, he's on my ***** list right now. He's involved in a project here in Brooklyn that has been deemed one of the most abusive cases of eminent domain ever. Hundreds of people, including myself, are losing their homes and businesses so he can move "his" basketball team to Brooklyn. All told, many more will be displaced through gentrification, including many of those in the neighborhood he's from.

[godssonisme]

This is actually good news in my opinion. Apple is usually the leader of the pack, so with Jay-Z on the team, they could really make some bigger moves.:cool:

[seashellz2]

Apple and Apple joining forces?
Now that would be a PR Jugernaught.

I thought remastered Beatles were due on CD this last June?!

[thirdeyeopen666]

I remember the first time I broke down Encore and analyzed it. "On the low but the yacht got a triple deck. But when you young what the **** you expect?" That's genius, it has so many meanings, especially because one of Jay-Z's nicknames is Young.

I always thought instead of saying, "After me there should be no more..." he should have said "After me there WILL be no more...". He's really one of a kind.

Sorry for the double post.

Just to preface this comment, I do like quite a bit of rap. However, calling the above lyric 'genius' is pretty goddang laughable. Just like Jim Morrison... the guy is *not* a poet.

[Digital Skunk]

Just to preface this comment, I do like quite a bit of rap. However, calling the above lyric 'genius' is pretty goddang laughable. Just like Jim Morrison... the guy is *not* a poet.

I spent a lot of time listening to European Hip Hop and the lyrics from others songs, even the ones I like.... there isn't much genius in them either. None at all in fact.

It's really up to the audience being reached.

[thegman1234]

...but the bragging and boasting in the lyrics is something I personally can't relate to and, frankly, am extremely bored with.

I agree, I feel the same way. It's getting to be ridiculous.

As for Jay Z, he's on my ***** list right now. He's involved in a project here in Brooklyn that has been deemed one of the most abusive cases of eminent domain ever. Hundreds of people, including myself, are losing their homes and businesses so he can move "his" basketball team to Brooklyn. All told, many more will be displaced through gentrification, including many of those in the neighborhood he's from.

That's very unfortunate, I did not no of the ramifications of this movement. I'm sorry to hear that.

Just to preface this comment, I do like quite a bit of rap. However, calling the above lyric 'genius' is pretty goddang laughable. Just like Jim Morrison... the guy is *not* a poet.

To each his own, however I happen to strongly disagree with you.

[flosstein]

I mostly read different threads here and rarely post. It was interesting to see some of the responses here. IMHO Apple is "Pop Culture" and whether you agree or not, it's devices and creations shape and change the market constantly. Now Jay-Z is possibly one of the most influential icons of said "Pop Culture." He has consistently helped dictate trends (whether you are into them or not) and amazingly the influence of his words spans the globe. You cannot measure his presence by record sales, but by sales of anything he mentions as "hip" in his songs, i.e. Land Rover removing the 4.0 Range Rover from their lineup in the late 90's-early 2k's because their sales world wide slowed to a crawl because of a line in his "Imaginary Players." Now for Apple it's a match made in heaven.

[cmcbridejr]

I wonder what HP thinks of this, considering they had Jay-Z do a commercial for them and brag about all the stuff he can do with his HP computer.

Wasted marketing money for them.

[diamond.g]

No record label... So is everyone happy?

[Mr. Mustard]

This just is a bunch of fluff. Apple isn't the type to create their own "Label", they're in business to create the products for the label.

[thegman1234]

This thread needs to be closed I think.

[wiz7dome]

This thread needs to be closed I think.

I agree. This is not even a good or reasonable rumor.

[thegman1234]

I agree. This is not even a good or reasonable rumor.

Well, the discussion was great, but it's a Macworld rumor, so I feel it's outdated. It was also false.

[alexcellent]

Regardless of who is involved, I like the idea of Apple as a record label. What I've always thought would be a good solution (but not without problems) would be to simply allow bands (any band) to upload their albums that they have produced. You can charge a monthly hosting rate as well as taking a small amount from each transaction (significantly less than record labels). You could then also introduce levels where bands could pay more per month and have their album featured in rotating ads, this would add to the monthly hosting rate, but not to the per transaction fee that Apple would take. The delivery service for the music already there through iTunes. Most of the work that record labels do for starting bands is just help in the distribution of their music, helping them get their name out. iTunes as a record label could make distribution so much easier for bands and cheaper.
Ultimately you would end up with a lot of crap on iTunes but at the same time, any terrible band could put their music up there and direct any fans across the globe they might have to it and still be able to make money. It could really shake up the music industry in that at least bands would have another option other than the traditional labels that take huge cuts of the profit.

Sorry, couldn't help myself, but this has existed for almost a decade. Its called purevolume (http://www.purevolume.com). And why would any label have its artists pay for their ads to run on iTunes? That's the whole point of being signed to a label; labels pay for all expenses, and get all the revenue, and then pay the artist from the profits.

Anyway, I'm not really sure how iTunes would host a label while still remaining a (reasonably) objective online music store.

[diamond.g]

Anyway, I'm not really sure how iTunes would host a label while still remaining a (reasonably) objective online music store.

By making the music label a separate division. That is how. I mean companies like Sony have the same problem (but more expansive) and they haven't folded in on themselves yet.

[stetz5]

I wouldn't think it was a dumb idea for Apple to get involved with Jay-Z. I also believe that the lyric in question ("On the low but the yacht got a triple deck. But when you young what the **** you expect?") is far from being Hov's best lyric. If you want to use a good lyric for the situation at hand, I believe you should turn to "I'm not a businessman, I'm a business, man!" And that would be exactly what Apple, if the rumors are true, would be thinking exactly. Jay is not only a great entrepreneur, but he himself is a business, just his name being involved in something can make it millions and make it popular (this thread being proof of that). So don't hate on Jay for being EXTREMELY good at what he does, which is make himself and those around him millions of dollars.

good point with the HP-he def did a commercial with'em.

[Mr. Mustard]

i thought this thread was done and over?? WTF?

[thegman1234]

I wouldn't think it was a dumb idea for Apple to get involved with Jay-Z. I also believe that the lyric in question ("On the low but the yacht got a triple deck. But when you young what the **** you expect?") is far from being Hov's best lyric. If you want to use a good lyric for the situation at hand, I believe you should turn to "I'm not a businessman, I'm a business, man!" And that would be exactly what Apple, if the rumors are true, would be thinking exactly. Jay is not only a great entrepreneur, but he himself is a business, just his name being involved in something can make it millions and make it popular (this thread being proof of that). So don't hate on Jay for being EXTREMELY good at what he does, which is make himself and those around him millions of dollars.

good point with the HP-he def did a commercial with'em.

Not to bring this thread back to life, but I never said it was his best. And actually, the lyric I chose has more hidden meaning and metaphor than the one you chose. And I was never trying to use a lyric relevant to business, I was trying to prove a point that Jay-Z writes brilliant lyrics. Nevertheless it doesn't matter because the rumor was NOT true.

Now please, if a mod could close this thread that would be great. IMO it's completely irrelevant. AND it's not even true, it didn't happen. It may happen in the future, but it didn't happen at Macworld 2008.

[Mr. Gollihue]

jay-z isn't completely terrible. he's far from leader of the pack, but anyone who actually sat and listened to "the blueprint" could argue that he was once king of the hill.