PDA

View Full Version : Orange Sells 70,000 iPhones in First Month




MacRumors
Jan 4, 2008, 09:50 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Orange announced (http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/newstex/AFX-0013-22017594.htm) today that it had sold 70,000 iPhones in the first month of sales in France.

The company had targetted 50-100,000 in iPhone sales over this period of time, so sales were in line. Orange had previously announced (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2007/12/05/30000-iphones-sold-in-france/) that 30,000 iPhones had been sold in the first week.

Apple and Orange launched (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/28/orange-announces-iphone-france-and-unlocking-options/) the iPhone on November 28th, 2007.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/01/04/orange-sells-70000-iphones-in-first-month/)



acearchie
Jan 4, 2008, 09:54 AM
Would have been interested to have seen how many were unlocked!

DTphonehome
Jan 4, 2008, 09:54 AM
Apple really needs to launch in more countries if they plan to sell 10 million by the end of 2008.

Man, think of the numbers they would do if they just sold this SIM-unlocked worldwide.

bigandy
Jan 4, 2008, 09:57 AM
Apple really needs to launch in more countries if they plan to sell 10 million by the end of 2008.

Man, think of the numbers they would do if they just sold this SIM-unlocked worldwide.

I agree - but imagine. Would people really stump up $1500 for an iPhone?

Screw that.

If it was $400 / £200 unlocked everyone on the planet would have one by the end of January.

Yuppi
Jan 4, 2008, 10:00 AM
I see one big advantage of the cooperation. Google Maps locate me is required to know all the GPS positions of cell towers. And Apple can push the providers to give google those data. For the first time since triangulation was first mentioned I can clearly see it work out this time.
Other then that, I want my iPhone in Sweden :) And I want it on february.

Fabio_gsilva
Jan 4, 2008, 10:01 AM
Definitely not a great result. It is not bad, but just average.

I feel like the iPhone is finding hard time in Europe, and sales are not so great as expected.

tjcampbell
Jan 4, 2008, 10:01 AM
Think from an economists standpoint.

Apple makes WAY more money, selling less phones and then taking a cut from the providers than if they just sold heaps of phones.

twoodcc
Jan 4, 2008, 10:01 AM
seems like they did what they expected. so it's pretty good. they just need to lower the price a little, and they'd sell a lot more

decimortis
Jan 4, 2008, 10:03 AM
Woohoo!

*cheers for Apple then sadly waves tiny Canadian flag

Merkuryy
Jan 4, 2008, 10:03 AM
If it was $400 / £200 unlocked everyone on the planet would have one by the end of January.

Nope, as a iPod Touch user , I prefer to wait for my Nokia N82 as my phone. But AAPL really need to bring up new plans if they want to hit 10M, and also seriously they need to bring new stuff to the iPhone. Look like people get tired of the recent iPhone look and use and want sth more

jdbradford
Jan 4, 2008, 10:05 AM
Seems like iPhone sales in the UK weren't great either - if they are going to get to their target it will be based on US sales

http://mobiletoday.co.uk/iPhone_sales_a_Christmas_flop.html

studiomusic
Jan 4, 2008, 10:10 AM
I just got back from 2 weeks in France for the holidays and did not see one iphone in the wild except mine and my wife's. Don't blame them really, you take your life in your hands when you show that you have something valuable with you (not in every quartier, mais presque!)
70,000 is incredible considering how much it costs. All my friends LOVED it, but could not afford it. Oh ya, almost $8 a gallon for gas too...
How's socialism going for ya?

Philsy
Jan 4, 2008, 10:19 AM
Seems like iPhone sales in the UK weren't great either - if they are going to get to their target it will be based on US sales

http://mobiletoday.co.uk/iPhone_sales_a_Christmas_flop.html

Not surprising. The phone and tariffs are way too high, and the phone specs are not that good. Let's hope for a price cut.

shov
Jan 4, 2008, 10:31 AM
Oh ya, almost $8 a gallon for gas too...
How's socialism going for ya?

Very well thanks, check out our free health services and superfast, sexy international trains.

(although we've only got rampant capitalism in the UK now...)

ckurowic
Jan 4, 2008, 10:42 AM
Thats interesting. Most of the PC loving blogs I read about Orange and iPhone sales said they were "sluggish". I guess not. Its amazing. The iPhone has been out for about a year and it already has more of a user base than the Windows mobile OS. I'd be very worried, m$oft.

ckurowic
Jan 4, 2008, 10:43 AM
:)

Just can't compare the two :-p

theBB
Jan 4, 2008, 10:47 AM
AppleInsider has a negative spin on this, as apparently Orange sold fewer phones than it hoped. I only spent a few days in France, but I don't remember seeing any iPods while I was there. If iPods are not that popular, it is no surprise iPhone is not selling that well.

studiomusic
Jan 4, 2008, 10:50 AM
Very well thanks, check out our free health services and superfast, sexy international trains.

(although we've only got rampant capitalism in the UK now...)

I lived in France 8 years... free health care? Only if you don't work. And I won't even begin to tell you how their health "care" almost killed my wife, her mom and 2 of her sisters... I guess I did begin.
Now the UK is different, their health care killed my grandpa (waiting list for 2 years to get an operation on a brain tumor that killed him in 6 months) and an aunte (mis-diagnosed and mistreated until the end).
I prefer sexy planes to trains, but air travel costs WAY too much in Europe.
Anyways, go Apple!:apple:

CrackedButter
Jan 4, 2008, 11:01 AM
I agree with the other poster, if only they sold these phones unlocked, who ever stated $1500 would be the unlocked asking price is purely guessing. The price is the price it already is while it is locked, it fits into their ipod line up and even the mighty Apple wouldn't price it that high in the first place. It's not worth $1500.

As usual however, everybody casts doom and gloom rather than wait and see.

gifford
Jan 4, 2008, 11:09 AM
If iPhone sales do not exceed expectations next quarterly results I will eat my pet goat.

princealfie
Jan 4, 2008, 11:11 AM
If iPhone sales do not exceed expectations next quarterly results I will eat my pet goat.

yum, goat meat is tasty in Indian cuisine :)

Manic Mouse
Jan 4, 2008, 11:18 AM
Just think how well it would have sold had Apple not used the iPhone as a vehicle to rip-off gullible customers, and priced it reasonably unlocked or paired it with competitive contracts?

The iPhone is selling well in spite of it's price, and that can only continue for so long. There're only so many people willing to pay huge amounts of cash for what is essentially an iPod Touch with a few new phone apps, 2G and crap camera.

ts1973
Jan 4, 2008, 11:19 AM
Anyone else thinks this is rather low ?

I for one know of two people that went to France from belgium to buy an unlocked phone, and I guess there are loads more, so all these people are included too...

philbeeney
Jan 4, 2008, 11:35 AM
Woohoo!

*cheers for Apple then sadly waves tiny Canadian flag

Sod that.

** waves honking great Canadian flag shouting "Where's our bloody iPhones, Steve" at the top of my voice. ** :D

swagi
Jan 4, 2008, 11:48 AM
Definitely not a great result. It is not bad, but just average.

I feel like the iPhone is finding hard time in Europe, and sales are not so great as expected.

Yeah...and I remember how we European Macrumor users were bashed for telling everybody that it is not the Jesus phone and that it won't sell in Europe without 3G and MMS!

I wonder when the first apologists will arrive to give this a positive spin (like 70,000 phones sold means more than 0.2 % of the whole French population own one. What a market penetration.

Manic Mouse
Jan 4, 2008, 12:02 PM
Yeah...and I remember how we European Macrumor users were bashed for telling everybody that it is not the Jesus phone and that it won't sell in Europe without 3G and MMS!

Forget about 3G and MMS, it wont sell until it's on a decent contract. So the UK and French launches have been average at best, how was the German one?

Here's the problem with the iPhone:

My O2 contract: £19, 150 mins, 500 messages, free phone every year
My friend's O2 contract: £30, 400 mins, 1,000 messages, free phone 18 monthly
iPhone contract: £35, 200 mins, 200 messages, unlimited internet, add £279 for phone (soon to be obsolete)

I hope Apple's happy with the blood-money it's getting from those crappy contracts.

eastcoastsurfer
Jan 4, 2008, 12:08 PM
Forget about 3G and MMS, it wont sell until it's on a decent contract. So the UK and French launches have been average at best, how was the German one?

Here's the problem with the iPhone:

My O2 contract: £19, 150 mins, 500 messages, free phone every year
My friend's O2 contract: £30, 400 mins, 1,000 messages, free phone 18 monthly
iPhone contract: £35, 200 mins, 200 messages, unlimited internet, add £279 for phone (soon to be obsolete)

I hope Apple's happy with the blood-money it's getting from those crappy contracts.

Exactly! iphones will not get decent contracts because Apple wants to milk the providers and thus the consumers. The iphone isn't worth it's original price + the money you pay to Apple each month through your provider. I would even argue it's not worth it's original price, but that's for another thread.

I wonder if we'll look back at the iphone in 5 years and wonder if it marks when the smugness and arrogance of Apple started the companies downfall. As a company they have let almost all of their other products lag behind because of the iphone. Was that a good business strategy? Only time will tell.

Manic Mouse
Jan 4, 2008, 12:15 PM
Apple wants to milk the providers and thus the consumers.

And how many cows willing to be milked do you think there are in Europe? If the iPhone can't sell well when it's a brand new product riding a year of hype how well will it do over the next year, once the hype is gone and the hardcore have bought theirs?

According to Ars Orange originally said they wanted to sell 100,000 (presumably a realistic number). This 50,000 number seems to be a little damage control, to cover up that they didn't meet their sales targets:

70,000 sounds like a nice, solid number at first. However, just two days before the iPhone's release in France, France Telecom CEO, Didier Lombard said that the company hoped to sell a solid 100,000 iPhones before the end of the year. That would mean that the company was about 30,000 short, for you math geniuses in the audience. It looks as if Orange is a little embarrassed by not being able to meet its own goal for 2007 and has ever-so-slightly padded its original goal to make it look like less of a flop.

takao
Jan 4, 2008, 12:17 PM
ah the joy of remembering the one thread which stated 1 million iphones sold in europe until 15th january :rolleyes:

image they had launch outside of christmas during the summer ... that would have been ugly

CrackedButter
Jan 4, 2008, 12:19 PM
Exactly! iphones will not get decent contracts because Apple wants to milk the providers and thus the consumers. The iphone isn't worth it's original price + the money you pay to Apple each month through your provider. I would even argue it's not worth it's original price, but that's for another thread.

I wonder if we'll look back at the iphone in 5 years and wonder if it marks when the smugness and arrogance of Apple started the companies downfall. As a company they have let almost all of their other products lag behind because of the iphone. Was that a good business strategy? Only time will tell.

I wouldn't say Apple's other products have lagged, just remember a lot of people expect a lot from Apple, but one thing Apple can be criticised for is the price drop on the iPhone. The price drop itself isn't a bad thing its just that why don't they do it for their Mac line up if they are concerned about gaining market share?

Jobs stated he wanted to get the iPhone into as many hands as possible when he announced the price drop, why not the same with the Apple computers? Especially the Mac mini. Instead the price of the mini went up and to buy a black MacBook it costs extra over a white one!

Manic Mouse
Jan 4, 2008, 12:24 PM
I wouldn't say Apple's other products have lagged, just remember a lot of people expect a lot from Apple, but one thing Apple can be criticised for is the price drop on the iPhone. The price drop itself isn't a bad thing its just that why don't they do it for their Mac line up if they are concerned about gaining market share?

Jobs stated he wanted to get the iPhone into as many hands as possible when he announced the price drop, why not the same with the Apple computers? Especially the Mac mini. Instead the price of the mini went up and to buy a black MacBook it costs extra over a white one!

Because Apple make 30% profit on Macs. They make about 300% profit on the iPhone, when you factor in the constant stream of money from the service provider over an 18 month contract.

They can easily afford to cut the price on the iPhone if it isn't selling well.

The iPhone as a product hasn't lagged behind, in fact it's probably one of Apple's best ever produced. Especially considering it's a first gen product. Apple's attitude, however, leaves a lot to be desired as they're using it to gouge customers for as much as they can possibly get away with.

Had MS or any other company pulled what Apple have with the iPhone and it's contracts everyone on here would be baying for blood.

SheriffParker
Jan 4, 2008, 12:24 PM
Well when they release the 3G iPhone, they will sell 70,000 more.... to all the people who bought the first one and want to upgrade. :p

eastcoastsurfer
Jan 4, 2008, 12:26 PM
I wouldn't say Apple's other products have lagged, just remember a lot of people expect a lot from Apple,

Apple has said themselves that the iphone caused their other products to lag...namely Leopard. Doesn't take much to figure out if the iphone can cause their flagship OS to lag that it definitely put a burden on their other products as well.

Bonte
Jan 4, 2008, 12:31 PM
I wonder when the first apologists will arrive to give this a positive spin (like 70,000 phones sold means more than 0.2 % of the whole French population own one. What a market penetration.

Let me be the first
If i remember correctly, Apple sold about 1 million iPhones the first month of sales, that is 0,33 % market penetration. Take into account the hacked phones that leave the VS and the french figures don's look so bad.

Matti
Jan 4, 2008, 12:32 PM
They can easily afford to cut the price on the iPhone if it isn't selling well.


price cut might be coming.

From: http://mobiletoday.co.uk/iPhone_sales_a_Christmas_flop.html

O2 enjoyed a major spike in iPhone sales in the week before Christmas, after disappointing sales from the much-hyped 9 November launch.

Most stores are believed to have missed iPhone targets by some distance, with a typical-sized O2 store selling just one iPhone per week. However, that appeared to change in the final seven days, with O2 staff reporting a big upturn, with many stores selling one per day, and even more in large city centre stores.

One O2 source said: ‘It seemed like people started buying them even if they were already in a contract, especially as they realised they wouldn’t start being billed until they registered online.’

O2 staff said that despite the moderate interest there was a much lower percentage of returns on the iPhone than had been anticipated.

Carphone staff were less bullish on iPhone sales, reporting plenty of interest in the device, but with a very low rate converting into sales, with the price tag being the main stumbling block.

One Carphone staffer said: ‘The iPhone was poor. We work in one of the bigger stores in our area and only sold one or two over the Christmas period. Our target last week was to sell 36 and we only sold one.’

A price cut is rumoured to be taking place in the coming months to bring the cost of the iPhone down from £270, or an improvement in the tariff to give more value than the 600 minutes and 500 texts for £45 currently offered.

thegman1234
Jan 4, 2008, 12:38 PM
thats horrible....they should of done much better...they likely sold more unlocked iPhones to canadians!

first comment yeah

Haha. Btw I like your position as "Best Buy Apple Specialist." The geek squad at my best buy knows nothing at ALL about Macs.

It's nice to see that the iPhone is succeeding internationally. This is a very good thing.

Manic Mouse
Jan 4, 2008, 12:38 PM
price cut might be coming.

From: http://mobiletoday.co.uk/iPhone_sales_a_Christmas_flop.html

O2 enjoyed a major spike in iPhone sales in the week before Christmas, after disappointing sales from the much-hyped 9 November launch.

Most stores are believed to have missed iPhone targets by some distance, with a typical-sized O2 store selling just one iPhone per week. However, that appeared to change in the final seven days, with O2 staff reporting a big upturn, with many stores selling one per day, and even more in large city centre stores.

One O2 source said: ‘It seemed like people started buying them even if they were already in a contract, especially as they realised they wouldn’t start being billed until they registered online.’

O2 staff said that despite the moderate interest there was a much lower percentage of returns on the iPhone than had been anticipated.

Carphone staff were less bullish on iPhone sales, reporting plenty of interest in the device, but with a very low rate converting into sales, with the price tag being the main stumbling block.

One Carphone staffer said: ‘The iPhone was poor. We work in one of the bigger stores in our area and only sold one or two over the Christmas period. Our target last week was to sell 36 and we only sold one.’

A price cut is rumoured to be taking place in the coming months to bring the cost of the iPhone down from £270, or an improvement in the tariff to give more value than the 600 minutes and 500 texts for £45 currently offered.

My friend works in Carphone Warehouse and she tells me the same story. There's huge interest in the iPhone but they've hardly sold any at her store.

The iPhone contracts need gutted, pure and simple. They're a joke.

TheChillPill
Jan 4, 2008, 12:47 PM
I think sales will see something of an upturn when the prepay (PAYG) version launches later this quarter (in the UK at least). If they keep the phone price as it is (or lower), I think people will go for it. Moreso if it coincides with iPhone 2 with 3G.

aristobrat
Jan 4, 2008, 01:14 PM
Here's the problem with the iPhone:

My O2 contract: £19, 150 mins, 500 messages, free phone every year
My friend's O2 contract: £30, 400 mins, 1,000 messages, free phone 18 monthly
iPhone contract: £35, 200 mins, 200 messages, unlimited internet, add £279 for phone (soon to be obsolete)
Wonder why AT&T is able to offer decent iPhone plans when none of the European carriers seem to be able?

Glenny2lappies
Jan 4, 2008, 01:27 PM
Seems like iPhone sales in the UK weren't great either - if they are going to get to their target it will be based on US sales

http://mobiletoday.co.uk/iPhone_sales_a_Christmas_flop.html

From that URL: "Most stores are believed to have missed iPhone targets by some distance, with a typical-sized O2 store selling just one iPhone per week."

That's excellent news; it restores my faith in the British public. The iPhone plan is outrageously expensive and is designed to completely screw the customer. I despise the way the plan doesn't roll over unused time, that's without considering the paltry monthly allowance (plus overpriced per-minute and data roaming costs, and lousy EDGE coverage -- 30% of the UK compared with 99% GSM coverage).

I've a feeling that most people are waiting for the iPhone to 'get better' with the SDK and upcoming 3G version this summer.

Hey, wouldn't it be brilliant if the 3G version's launched next week. Mind you, there's absolutely no chance of that happening as it would completely upset all the early adopters:-) I do reckon that Steve will mention this next week though.

CrackedButter
Jan 4, 2008, 01:32 PM
Because Apple make 30% profit on Macs. They make about 300% profit on the iPhone, when you factor in the constant stream of money from the service provider over an 18 month contract.

They can easily afford to cut the price on the iPhone if it isn't selling well.

You talk as though Apple don't make any further profit from an Apple mac after the initial purchase. There are things like Applecare, software, upgrades and accessories.

Your "300%" needs backing up if I'm to take your point seriously. I understand what you're trying to say but you're just throwing numbers at me, nobody knows how much they take from each contract over the 18 months.

Apple has said themselves that the iphone caused their other products to lag...namely Leopard. Doesn't take much to figure out if the iphone can cause their flagship OS to lag that it definitely put a burden on their other products as well.

I think we need to define lag here. You're talking about Leopard being delayed as the "lag" while I got the impression from the other poster that the quality of the product "lagged". I'm under the impression that the quality of the product didn't lag.

If there was a burden placed on other products, we certainly wouldn't know about them either.

mrrory
Jan 4, 2008, 01:36 PM
Just can't compare the two :-p

Hey, my original post disappeared. Interesting moderating decision. :confused:

Manic Mouse
Jan 4, 2008, 01:44 PM
You talk as though Apple don't make any further profit from an Apple mac after the initial purchase. There are things like Applecare, software, upgrades and accessories.

That aren't guaranteed income. Apple aren't going to offer Macs at cost price or less on the off-chance that you'll buy enough accessories and software to make it worth their while. Computers aren't videogame consoles, which are useless unless you buy games. And even if that were the case then they wouldn't bundle software like iLife (which you should factor into your price).

Macs are expensive, don't get me wrong, but the iPhone is in a whole other league.

Your "300%" needs backing up if I'm to take your point seriously. I understand what you're trying to say but you're just throwing numbers at me, nobody knows how much they take from each contract over the 18 months.

When the iPhone was released it was estimated that it cost Apple around $250 (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/cellphones/iphone-only-costs-250-to-make-rest-of-price-is-fanboy-tax-229664.php)(£125) to make. It'll cost them even less now. They sell them for £279 and then make money over 18 months from the O2 contract. And given the ludicrous price of that contract I would say they're getting quite a bit (some rumours say as much as 40%) (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/sep/17/mobilephones.apple).

You do the math. Bottom line is that they're making back many times over what each iPhone costs to make.

weg
Jan 4, 2008, 01:44 PM
Oh ya, almost $8 a gallon for gas too...
How's socialism going for ya?

How's the war for cheap oil (http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/) going for ya?

thegman1234
Jan 4, 2008, 01:46 PM
Wonder why AT&T is able to offer decent iPhone plans when none of the European carriers seem to be able?

My family iPhone plan is great. $90 for a third line, 700 shared anytime minutes, unlimited weekend and night minutes, and 200 texts to share. More texts would be nice though. But other than that it's a great plan.

Glenny2lappies
Jan 4, 2008, 01:48 PM
Wonder why AT&T is able to offer decent iPhone plans when none of the European carriers seem to be able?

European phones are free to receive calls unless in a different country, in which case the maximum charge is capped by the EU at about US$0.40/min.

The UK O2 contract charges out-of-plan outgoing calls (to UK landlines) at 20p/US$0.40 per min. Unused minutes can't be rolled forwards to subsequent months (rollover is very common for UK contracts), so you'll either end up not using all your allowance, or going over and being stung.

Compare this with my current Orange contract of 5p/US$0.10 per min out-of-plan. My data rates are high, but my phone doesn't really use the interwebs that well.

Foreign roaming costs totally take the piss at £7.50/US$15 per megabyte! within Europe. And the "unlimited wireless" doesn't work, so you're back to hunting down open wireless networks or paying through the nose.

This isn't a problem for other mobile phones where you get such a lousy rendering that images are often not downloaded, thus it's cheaper. Similarly with scripts which the iPhone will run, so end up downloading more crap.

And again, that's probably using the GSM network at 19k2 baud = slooooow, so pointless.

I'm not sure we'll see Pay-as-you-go iPhones any time soon. Unless they charge $1/min and some daily data charge.

weg
Jan 4, 2008, 01:55 PM
The iPhone has been out for about a year and it already has more of a user base than the Windows mobile OS. I'd be very worried, m$oft.

That's just plain wrong. You're referring to an article that claimed that the market share of the iPhone browser is higher than the market share of Mobile Internet Explorer. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone), the market share of WM is 6.1%, while the market share for iPhone OS X is 1.3%. The market share of Symbian OS, btw, is ten times larger than iPhone and WM combined.

eastcoastsurfer
Jan 4, 2008, 01:55 PM
You talk as though Apple don't make any further profit from an Apple mac after the initial purchase. There are things like Applecare, software, upgrades and accessories.

Your "300%" needs backing up if I'm to take your point seriously. I understand what you're trying to say but you're just throwing numbers at me, nobody knows how much they take from each contract over the 18 months.

I think we need to define lag here. You're talking about Leopard being delayed as the "lag" while I got the impression from the other poster that the quality of the product "lagged". I'm under the impression that the quality of the product didn't lag.

If there was a burden placed on other products, we certainly wouldn't know about them either.

As far as how much Apple gets from the subs...they are a publicly traded company and as such must end up documenting where most (all?) of their revenues come from. I thought by now most people knew how much they were getting from each ATT contract at least.

And while Leopard isn't a bad product it's certainly far from done. Half implemented features such as stacks (the constantly changing icon based on the first item in the folder-did they even do usability testing?), spaces (randomly jumping spaces, can't set a background for each, oddness on multi-monitor), and time machine (does the airdisk work yet?) show me that they are struggling for resources. I guess they are too busy making sure the iphone stays locked so they can continue to get their $5-$15/month from each sub...

aristobrat
Jan 4, 2008, 01:55 PM
My question was asking why the European carriers price their iPhone plans so expensively compared to their other plans.

In the US, AT&T's iPhone plan is basically the normal rate for a voice plan + $20 for unlimited data+ 200 SMS. Hardly a bad deal.

And while Leopard isn't a bad product it's certainly far from done.
The same complaint was made by some about Tiger when it first came out, too. I'm not aware of any time Apple's released an OS that was unanimously thought to be perfect and complete. There's always some talk of it having being rushed, etc. AFAIK, Apple wasn't considered resource constrained back then.

eastcoastsurfer
Jan 4, 2008, 02:22 PM
My question was asking why the European carriers price their iPhone plans so expensively compared to their other plans.

In the US, AT&T's iPhone plan is basically the normal rate for a voice plan + $20 for unlimited data+ 200 SMS. Hardly a bad deal.


Because the EU carriers are passing along the Apple plan tax directly to the consumer. In the US, ATT is sucking it up for now. I wonder if the EU carriers put their plan on the bill then the 'extra' they send to Apple each month itemized out, would people still want the phone. The true cost of the iphone is so high, I'm not sure how anyone in the EU especially can think it's worth it. It certainly does appeal to the 'oh shiny' crowd so I guess that gets you somewhere.

Rauha
Jan 4, 2008, 02:22 PM
My question was asking why the European carriers price their iPhone plans so expensively compared to their other plans.


Hard to say. It could be just european telecos being more greedy, or maybe Apple is taking larger chunk of monthly fees in Europe. It was rumored that Apples cut would be as large as 30% in Europe, but I don't know what the same figure is in states.

whatever
Jan 4, 2008, 02:26 PM
Apple really needs to launch in more countries if they plan to sell 10 million by the end of 2008.

Man, think of the numbers they would do if they just sold this SIM-unlocked worldwide.

And just think about the money that they would lose if they did something as stupid as selling them SIM-unlocked!

Apple's biggest market is the US and if they sold these devices unlocked here, they would lose all of that AT&T subscriber money, which is the long run is a lot of money!

CrackedButter
Jan 4, 2008, 02:28 PM
That aren't guaranteed income. Apple aren't going to offer Macs at cost price or less on the off-chance that you'll buy enough accessories and software to make it worth their while. Computers aren't videogame consoles, which are useless unless you buy games. And even if that were the case then they wouldn't bundle software like iLife (which you should factor into your price).

Macs are expensive, don't get me wrong, but the iPhone is in a whole other league.

When the iPhone was released it was estimated that it cost Apple around $250 (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/cellphones/iphone-only-costs-250-to-make-rest-of-price-is-fanboy-tax-229664.php)(£125) to make. It'll cost them even less now. They sell them for £279 and then make money over 18 months from the O2 contract. And given the ludicrous price of that contract I would say they're getting quite a bit (some rumours say as much as 40%) (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/sep/17/mobilephones.apple).

You do the math. Bottom line is that they're making back many times over what each iPhone costs to make.

I'll take your first point but I'm not asking for a at cost price, if your numbers are right and they command a 30% profit margin, they could drop the prices by 10% or just 5%.

Your second point still doesn't have anything to do with hard figures. I can't discuss estimates.

MacsRgr8
Jan 4, 2008, 02:37 PM
The iPhone is already due for an upgrade.

The ones who really, really wanted an iPhone over here in Europe probably have found a way to get hold of one, and unlocked it.
The ones in the UK, Germany and France had the choice to wait for it to be launched in their country, and have the benefits of full support end service, or get one earlier and be really cool. :D

Now though, the other countries have waited too long for it IMHO. If I were to be triggered to get a legit iPhone in Holland by the time it arrives, I would expect it be have more features like 3G and GPS.

As Steve already "promised" 3G and GPS in the (near?) future, he actually nearly killed the sales of the current iPhone...

TBO I am a bit surprised that the number of sold iPhones is so high!

studiomusic
Jan 4, 2008, 02:40 PM
How's the war for cheap oil (http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/) going for ya?

Yep, kinda blows a hole in the old "this is a war for cheap oil" stance.
Oh to be neutral and not have to give billions in aid to the rest of the world...;)

Manic Mouse
Jan 4, 2008, 02:42 PM
Your second point still doesn't have anything to do with hard figures. I can't discuss estimates.

Even if the estimates are wildly wrong (which they aren't) we know that Apple are making a huge amount of profit on each iPhone sold. Especially compared to Macs. And Apple uses off-the-shelf components to build the iPhone, we know exactly where they come from and how much they cost, so the estimates are probably fairly accurate.

And just think about the money that they would lose if they did something as stupid as selling them SIM-unlocked!

Doesn't Steve like to talk about karma? Screwing over your customers for money can't be good for that...

homeboy
Jan 4, 2008, 02:43 PM
It's easy to see why the iPhone hasn't been a mega hit in France and the UK. I live in Sweden and was a Orange county resident for 4 months last year.

The consumer market here is very different from the one in the US. In the US cell phone services are in humans expensive since you pay when you receive messages and calls, in Europe you don't .

Secondly many here don't live living on credit and prefer prepaid cards over contracts. Apple needs to realize this because the iPhone will never become a cash cow in Europe before apple sells it unlocked. European consumers are very critical, are in control and don't jump on anything they think is cool. Sure you can buy it unlocked in France for 999 I believe but that's way more than what most people are willing to pay for a phone.

So until the iPhone come down in price and sold unlocked many people here will be reluctant to buy it. Steve Jobs needs to take his thumb out of his ass and not be so greedy.

whatever
Jan 4, 2008, 02:45 PM
My friend works in Carphone Warehouse and she tells me the same story. There's huge interest in the iPhone but they've hardly sold any at her store.

The iPhone contracts need gutted, pure and simple. They're a joke.

As an Apple share holder, I love the idea of making money off of the providers.

I now the following statement would upset many, but if the iPhone was not a huge success in the US then the product would have had a second chance in the ROW, however, since it is a huge success in the US Apple can take it's time with the foreign markets. They (Apple) does not have to roll over and place dead for the providers. Apple gambled with their strategy and won. When a low power 3G chipset is available, then Apple will offer it and maybe even make the providers in Europe to give them more of the monthly subscriber money.

iPhones and other iPods were flying off of the shelves in the US Apple Stores all of December.

whatever
Jan 4, 2008, 02:46 PM
I'll take your first point but I'm not asking for a at cost price, if your numbers are right and they command a 30% profit margin, they could drop the prices by 10% or just 5%.

Your second point still doesn't have anything to do with hard figures. I can't discuss estimates.

But why drop the price. What is Apple a charity? Maybe the oil companies should drop the price of oil too. Come on, it's supply and demand, pure and simple. People don't want a 3G or a smart phone, they want an iPhone.

There will never be cheap oil! It's a resource who's demand has exceeded it's supply. I wish Apple and others would promote digital delivered content (game, movies and music) as a way to reduce dependancy and waste of oil (yes, we care about reducing waste with jewel cases, but meanwhile we forget about the disc itself).

Manic Mouse
Jan 4, 2008, 02:53 PM
As an Apple share holder, I love the idea of making money off of the providers.

They aren't making money off the providers, they're making money off the consumers. The providers are simply off-loading Apple's monthly fee onto the bill that every iPhone user has to pay at the end of the month.

iPhone contracts cost more than better ones that also give you a free phone. Like I said, a joke. I don't know why O2 expected them to sell. As an Apple shareholder I would expect you to want O2 to be happy and for the iPhone to sell well in the UK (and Europe).

iPhones and other iPods were flying off of the shelves in the US Apple Stores all of December.


I'm sure that's not much consolation for O2.

whatever
Jan 4, 2008, 02:58 PM
Doesn't Steve like to talk about karma? Screwing over your customers for money can't be good for that...
Sorry about the back to back posts here, but I had to ask...

How is Apple screwing over customers? They offer a product and as a customer you choose to buy it, with the knowledge that it ran on a particular network and set of features.

I bought an iPhone that ran on the AT&T network with EDGE instead of G3. I knew this. Now if tomorrow they told me that EDGE no longer worked and I could only use .Mac for e-mail then I would feel like I was being ripped off. But until then, I bought what I bought.

No harm, no foul.

As far as the contracts go, you're wrong, Apple is receiving the money from the provider. If AT&T chooses to lower their rates, they would still have to pay Apple.

O2 knows what they're getting themselves into. They know that they iPhone is the coolest (I'm not saying the best) smart phone out there and they see the numbers coming in from the US and know that it's just a matter of time.

Manic Mouse
Jan 4, 2008, 03:04 PM
How is Apple screwing over customers?

Apple's own dictionary defines "rip-off" as "a fraud or swindle, esp. something that is grossly overpriced".

Now I would certainly call the UK iPhone contracts "grossly overpriced". The reason they're grossly overpriced is because of Apple's greed. I'm sure you, as an Apple shareholder, think it's great. I as a consumer, however, do not.

And the iPhone has pretty much been a flop for O2, what makes you think that'll change without a price drop? We aren't sheep, just because something's selling in America doesn't mean it will here because of that.

OllyW
Jan 4, 2008, 03:09 PM
As an Apple share holder, I love the idea of making money off of the providers.

You are not making money off the providers, it is the iPhone customers who are paying the extra.

The O2 tariffs are around £8.50 a month more expensive than they should be.

If you don't believe me, here are some comparisons.

iPhone £35 per month with 200 minutes / 200 txts / data & Cloud Wi-Fi

O2 SIM only £15 per month with 200 minutes / 400 txts / data add on £7.50 / Cloud W-Fi £3.99 = £26.49



iPhone £45 per month with 600 minutes / 500 txts / data & Cloud Wi-Fi

O2 SIM only £25 per month with 600 minutes / 1000 txts / data add on £7.50 / Cloud W-Fi £3.99 = £36.49



iPhone £55 per month with 1200 minutes / 500 txts / data & Cloud Wi-Fi

O2 SIM only £25 per month with 1200 minutes / 1000 txts / data add on £7.50 / Cloud W-Fi £3.99 = £36.49

For reference, the £3.99 Cloud is for the iPod touch package.

Each tariff is £8.51 extra with only half the included text messages.

homeboy
Jan 4, 2008, 03:11 PM
Apple's own dictionary defines "rip-off" as "a fraud or swindle, esp. something that is grossly overpriced".

Now I would certainly call the UK iPhone contracts "grossly overpriced". The reason they're grossly overpriced is because of Apple's greed. I'm sure you, as an Apple shareholder, think it's great. I as a consumer, however, do not.

And the iPhone has pretty much been a flop for O2, what makes you think that'll change without a price drop? We aren't sheep, just because something's selling in America doesn't mean it will here because of that.

Well said. Everything you wrote is in line with my opinion on the iPhone.

The Reg
Jan 4, 2008, 03:17 PM
The iPhone has been out for about a year and it already has more of a user base than the Windows mobile OS. I'd be very worried, m$oft.

Although Steve announced it in Jan... I'm sure the iPhone has only been out 6 months and a week. I should know I stood in line for 4 hours on June 29. :confused:

whatever
Jan 4, 2008, 03:18 PM
Apple's own dictionary defines "rip-off" as "a fraud or swindle, esp. something that is grossly overpriced".

Now I would certainly call the UK iPhone contracts "grossly overpriced". The reason they're grossly overpriced is because of Apple's greed. I'm sure you, as an Apple shareholder, think it's great. I as a consumer, however, do not.

And the iPhone has pretty much been a flop for O2, what makes you think that'll change without a price drop? We aren't sheep, just because something's selling in America doesn't mean it will here because of that.

Sorry everyone, my last reply I promise.

Your complaint appears to be more with O2's iPhone contract than the price of the iPhone. If Apple lowered the price of the iPhone, O2's iPhone contract prices would remain the same.

Complain to O2, obviously they think their customers are pretty stupid that they can sneak that by you. If this was some ploy by Apple to screw customers, don't you think it would have happened here in the US. Remember AT&T here in the states did not have the power that an O2 or Verizon did, so Apple could have easily messed with the pricing of the contracts. But that is not the case. In fact my AT&T contract is a better contract than my old Verizon contract, more minutes with unlimited data (Verizon cost more and did not include data!).

Do I think O2 and others are trying to make back some of the money they're giving Apple. Yes. Would I blame Apple? NO! Like AT&T other providers can take a smaller profit to build their user base, if they choose to.

I'm not calling you sheep, I'm just saying that the US is a much larger market and it's selling well here (I know of entire families that got iPhones for Christmas).

And let's be honest when a cool gadget/technology takes off in the US, the rest of the world normally is not far behind. But when a cool gadget/technology doesn't take off in the US....

Again, I'm not calling everyone else sheep, but let's look at Japan for a second. They have some of the coolest gadgets in the world, but how many of them just don't succeed outside of Asia?

aristobrat
Jan 4, 2008, 03:18 PM
We aren't sheep, just because something's selling in America doesn't mean it will here because of that.
If the iPhone were offered with the same lack-of-value monthly plans as they are in Europe, I doubt they'd sell as quickly here as they do.

So is it AT&T that got it right by absorbing some of Apple's extra cost instead of passing it along to the customer?

If the end result is that iPhones are flying off the shelf in the US because of this decision, European carriers might want to take note.

Rauha
Jan 4, 2008, 03:39 PM
Sorry everyone, my last reply I promise.

Your complaint appears to be more with O2's iPhone contract than the price of the iPhone. If Apple lowered the price of the iPhone, O2's iPhone contract prices would remain the same.

Complain to O2, obviously they think their customers are pretty stupid that they can sneak that by you. If this was some ploy by Apple to screw customers, don't you think it would have happened here in the US. Remember AT&T here in the states did not have the power that an O2 or Verizon did, so Apple could have easily messed with the pricing of the contracts. But that is not the case. In fact my AT&T contract is a better contract than my old Verizon contract, more minutes with unlimited data (Verizon cost more and did not include data!).

Do I think O2 and others are trying to make back some of the money they're giving Apple. Yes. Would I blame Apple? NO! Like AT&T other providers can take a smaller profit to build their user base, if they choose to.

I'm not calling you sheep, I'm just saying that the US is a much larger market and it's selling well here (I know of entire families that got iPhones for Christmas).

And let's be honest when a cool gadget/technology takes off in the US, the rest of the world normally is not far behind. But when a cool gadget/technology doesn't take off in the US....

Again, I'm not calling everyone else sheep, but let's look at Japan for a second. They have some of the coolest gadgets in the world, but how many of them just don't succeed outside of Asia?

Trouble with your argument is that we are talking about mobile-phones. Europe is ahead of US when it comes to phones. We have more advanced networks, people buy more expensive phones etc. European companies control roughly half of global telephone market. Many american networks are actually controlled by European companies (T-mobile, Verizon etc).

Apple's market model for iPhone works great in US, but they should have changed it accordingly to more advanced European market, and they better learn the lesson by the time iPhone is released it Asia where some of the markets are even more advanced than in Europe.

homeboy
Jan 4, 2008, 03:47 PM
And let's be honest when a cool gadget/technology takes off in the US, the rest of the world normally is not far behind. But when a cool gadget/technology doesn't take off in the US....

Not entirely right. Although Europe and the US has common "western markets" things don't work the same way in both places.

Like I have said earlier the problem is here is iPhone + cellphone model. The majority of people here have unlocked phones. We like freedom and don't want to be forced into buying a cellphone locked to one carrier or be pushed into a corner in any way. The issue here is the iPhone + plan model.

Very few people here are willing to shell out 400 euro for a phone and be forced to sign an expensive 18 month contract to use the phone. That's simply not how things work around there. For 400 dollars you get a unlocked top for the line Sony Ericsson phone here and are free to do what every you want there after. Many of the people I know and meet with buy an unlocked phone, get which ever prepaid card they want and don't spend more than 10-20 euro on refill every month.

So what apple needs to do is to drop the whole contract binding and sell the iPhone here unlocked for 400-700 euro, instead of being greedy wanting to make money off customers over a long period of time. So the trouble maker here isn't the network since Apple are the main force behind the contracts.

Manic Mouse
Jan 4, 2008, 03:47 PM
Sorry everyone, my last reply I promise.

Your complaint appears to be more with O2's iPhone contract than the price of the iPhone. If Apple lowered the price of the iPhone, O2's iPhone contract prices would remain the same.

Most definitely. I think the iPhone hardware price is fine, and would happily pay it if the contracts weren't so bad. But then the price of the iPhone isn't just the initial hardware cost, I'm smart enough to include what I'll end up paying in the long-run and for me it simply isn't worth it.

Complain to O2, obviously they think their customers are pretty stupid that they can sneak that by you. If this was some ploy by Apple to screw customers, don't you think it would have happened here in the US. Remember AT&T here in the states did not have the power that an O2 or Verizon did, so Apple could have easily messed with the pricing of the contracts. But that is not the case. In fact my AT&T contract is a better contract than my old Verizon contract, more minutes with unlimited data (Verizon cost more and did not include data!).

But I realise the reason O2 iPhone contracts are so bad is because of Apple and the deal they demanded if O2 were to get the iPhone. The reason it's exclusive to one carrier is because Apple played them off each other to get as much money for themselves from the deal as possible. Most phones in the UK are released on every carrier. Apple saw how successful the iPhone was in the US and demanded heaven and earth from the EU carriers if the rumours are to be believed (from The Guardian no less).

I suspect that O2 are paying Apple a lot more of the monthly contract than AT&T are. You are right that O2 are also at fault, but if they hadn't agreed to it some other carrier would have.

I do agree with you that America and Japan do influence the EU and everywhere else when it comes to technology. I was just making a funny comment when I said did you think we were sheep, I didn't really mean anything by it.

When it comes to mobile phones the EU is more advanced than the US. Both in terms of the models we get, the contracts we get and even how we use our phones (the exception being the iPhone). There's more competition which will make it harder for Apple to penetrate the market.

And like you say, you got a better contract when you moved to AT&T so the situation is entirely different over here. People need to be willing to put up with being locked into horrible contracts in order to own an iPhone. Most aren't prepared for that, I know I'm not.

EDIT: Just to add, you have no idea how disappointed I was when the contracts were announced. I was really ready for an iPhone...

whatever
Jan 4, 2008, 04:13 PM
I do agree with you that America and Japan do influence the EU and everywhere else when it comes to technology. I was just making a funny comment when I said did you think we were sheep, I didn't really mean anything by it.

When it comes to mobile phones the EU is more advanced than the US. Both in terms of the models we get, the contracts we get and even how we use our phones (the exception being the iPhone). There's more competition which will make it harder for Apple to penetrate the market.

Sorry, for yet another post. I was going to edit my last my post, but then thought what if those who commented didn't see my reply....

I just wanted to agree with the people who stated that EU, Asia and pretty much most of the world have more advanced mobile phone networks than the US. And in fact we also have really bad Internet access too (it's well documented and very embarrassing).

I guess my original comments centers around the notion that Apple is ripping consumers off with the iPhone. I do not believe they are.

Since the introduction of the iPhone I've learned more about global mobile market. Apple locking people into a particular carrier may not be the best solution, but there were reasons behind it (right now it appears to be for money (they are a business after all and want to have a more control over how the iPhone is sold throughout the world) and the visual voice mail).

Carriers such as O2 are charging a premium rates to iPhone customers. I do agree that is wrong, but still not ripping customers off. However in the long run this might come back and bite them (and I hope it does).

Imagine if Apple worked out contracts with providers and started to sell Apple branded Pre-Paid cards and behind the scenes Apple negotiated the deals.

Alright, I'm done for the day. No more boring responses from me. I promise for real.

MacsAttack
Jan 4, 2008, 04:38 PM
My friend works in Carphone Warehouse and she tells me the same story. There's huge interest in the iPhone but they've hardly sold any at her store.
.

Given the phenomenal level of bad press CW generated with their pushing expensive insurance I'm surprised they have managed to sell any :D

Me and my friends? We dealt direct with Apple. Talk to the organ grinder - not the monkey.

jdbradford
Jan 4, 2008, 04:44 PM
did anyone pick up in the ft article the following quote:

A 3G version of the iPhone is due to be launched by Apple next year and Mr Key is confident that O2 will also have an exclusive deal for the mark II device.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9e499580-b18b-11dc-9777-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

O2 DO NOT have a long term contract with Apple (unlike the US) - this is a SINGLE device contract - the 3G version may be with a different telco!!

MacsAttack
Jan 4, 2008, 04:49 PM
did anyone pick up in the ft article the following quote:

A 3G version of the iPhone is due to be launched by Apple next year and Mr Key is confident that O2 will also have an exclusive deal for the mark II device.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9e499580-b18b-11dc-9777-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

O2 DO NOT have a long term contract with Apple (unlike the US) - this is a SINGLE device contract - the 3G version may be with a different telco!!

Nice one. Post a link to an article that nobody can read...

sjo
Jan 4, 2008, 05:08 PM
As an Apple share holder, I love the idea of making money off of the providers.

I now the following statement would upset many, but if the iPhone was not a huge success in the US then the product would have had a second chance in the ROW, however, since it is a huge success in the US Apple can take it's time with the foreign markets. They (Apple) does not have to roll over and place dead for the providers. Apple gambled with their strategy and won. When a low power 3G chipset is available, then Apple will offer it and maybe even make the providers in Europe to give them more of the monthly subscriber money.

iPhones and other iPods were flying off of the shelves in the US Apple Stores all of December.

as apple shareholder, you must love how the market reacted to the news: AAPL 180.05 -14.88 (-7.63%)

well, at least it's cheaper for you to get more stocks now?

and apple cannot take its time with the foreign markets. the global cell phone market is huge, but extremely competitive. see what happened to motorola when it "took its time" to introduce new models because of the huge success of razr.

whatever
Jan 4, 2008, 05:16 PM
as apple shareholder, you must love how the market reacted to the news: AAPL 180.05 -14.88 (-7.63%)

well, at least it's cheaper for you to get more stocks now?

Paid $14.40 a share before the last split (brings it down to $7.20 a share), so a drop really doesn't mean much. If it was to drop down below $100.00 I would go on a Apple Stock shopping spree!

This is really my last post.

sjo
Jan 4, 2008, 05:29 PM
Paid $14.40 a share before the last split (brings it down to $7.20 a share), so a drop really doesn't mean much. If it was to drop down below $100.00 I would go on a Apple Stock shopping spree!

This is really my last post.

well your stock is down almost 8% from yesterday no matter how much you originally paid.

Matti
Jan 4, 2008, 05:44 PM
well your stock is down almost 8% from yesterday no matter how much you originally paid.

Well the value is still insanely over his purchase price. No need to get panicky over small fluctuation. That's how trendy tech stocks behave.

Glenny2lappies
Jan 4, 2008, 06:21 PM
If the iPhone were offered with the same lack-of-value monthly plans as they are in Europe, I doubt they'd sell as quickly here as they do.

So is it AT&T that got it right by absorbing some of Apple's extra cost instead of passing it along to the customer?

If the end result is that iPhones are flying off the shelf in the US because of this decision, European carriers might want to take note.

Conversely it could be that AT&T negotiated harder because the US is a bigger market. And possibly Apple negotiated softer because of the importance of the home market to the success of the iPhone.

With the exception of the Japanese market, which is a non-starter without 3G, all other markets world-wide are a lot smaller than the US. Therefore it seems reasonable that Apple would have demanded more. From O2's tariff this seems to be at least £7=US$14 per month going in Apple's direction (that's the £8.51 difference from the iPhone contract and equivalent contracts less VAT).

Beardy man
Jan 4, 2008, 06:22 PM
'd like to point out that in the UK all this talk of overpricing or excessive tariffs is totally irrelevant to me. I live in an area that appears to be off the map as far as O2 Edge is concerned. Having travelled around the country a bit over the holiday period I was disappointed to find out how poor O2 Edge coverage is even in major cities.

While the network remains as poor as it is (I rang O2 and they don't have any plans to extend Edge to anywhere near me, for the foreseeable future) I wouldn't buy an iPhone at any price.

I've been into a couple of local CW stores and an O2 store and tried, in vain, to get onto the interweb in less that 90 secs - I'm surprised that they didn't get WiFi sorted instore just to sucker the punters into buying the device.

If it's true that the iPhone contract with O2 is a single device deal then at least there is a chance that Orange might get the next one (good coverage over most of the UK compared to O2). If Orange was a good partner for France (being "in tune with our ideals") why go with the worst provider in UK?

I think Apple have dropped the ball in the UK. Once the novelty has worn off, a lot of buyers are going to find the daily drag a pain. It's not a case of 3G vs EDGE. On the streets of the UK with O2 it's more EGDE vs GPRS. The sad thing is the bad press will be directed at the iPhone, not the carrier. I know of 2 people so far who have returned their iPhones for other "smart phones" citing lack of useable service (sorry, don't know the financial penalties/deals).

Just to add, I really was ready for an iPhone. Having played with them in the stores and borrowed one for a couple of hours around Bristol over Christmas, they are fantastic bits of kit, crippled by the wrong provider. For me this is way more important than price - that can be altered, I can't see O2 getting off their arses anytime soon to improve their end of things.

Glenny2lappies
Jan 4, 2008, 06:31 PM
.....

.... People need to be willing to put up with being locked into horrible contracts in order to own an iPhone. Most aren't prepared for that, I know I'm not.

EDIT: Just to add, you have no idea how disappointed I was when the contracts were announced. I was really ready for an iPhone...

You and me both.

As I see it at the moment, only rich people and, to be blunt, mugs, have got iPhones in the UK. When I see one -- and I don't see that many in comparison with the number of Crackberries, I just feel sorry for the person. I don't think that's the message Apple want to promote!

Matti
Jan 4, 2008, 06:31 PM
It's not a case of 3G vs EDGE. On the streets of the UK with O2 it's more EGDE vs GPRS.

But in the end what you say is really about 3G vs EDGE. European networks didn't really impliment EDGE because most went straight to 3G (or built very limited EDGE-network).

There's really no point in building EDGE-network for just one phone.

ClassicMac247
Jan 4, 2008, 06:33 PM
woo hoo, go orange

skunk
Jan 4, 2008, 06:39 PM
As I see it at the moment, only rich people and, to be blunt, mugs, have got iPhones in the UK. Charming! I have an iPhone, and I'm really happy with it. It's a pleasure to use, as quick as I need, and costs me far less than my Nokia N70 used to cost on Orange, which I never even used for data. So far, I've received 188MB and sent 42MB since November 9th.

Beardy man
Jan 4, 2008, 06:42 PM
But in the end what you say is really about 3G vs EDGE. European networks didn't really impliment EDGE because most went straight to 3G (or built very limited EDGE-network).

There's really no point in building EDGE-network for just one phone.

I agree completely. However I can't see O2 doing squat to improve their pathetic 3G coverage when the iPhone 3G rolls round this autumn either. It's almost impossible to find out from O2 where their EDGE coverage exists (most of the staff have never heard of EDGE) and the map on their website is painful to use at best.

Yeah, go Orange ;-)

OllyW
Jan 4, 2008, 06:43 PM
Charming! I have an iPhone, and I'm really happy with it. It's a pleasure to use, as quick as I need, and costs me far less than my Nokia N70 used to cost on Orange, which I never even used for data. So far, I've received 188MB and sent 42MB since November 9th.

But are you a rich mug? :)

Beardy man
Jan 4, 2008, 06:45 PM
But are you a rich mug? :)

LOL

Matti
Jan 4, 2008, 06:46 PM
But are you a rich mug? :)

Here's a happy iPhone owner.

http://www.olddurhamroad.com/images/large/6829.jpg

MacsAttack
Jan 4, 2008, 06:47 PM
As I see it at the moment, only rich people and, to be blunt, mugs, have got iPhones in the UK.

IPhone Envy detected! :D

Beardy man
Jan 4, 2008, 06:50 PM
IPhone Envy detected! :D

I'll admit to "location envy". If I could get an EDGE signal I'd get an iPhone.

skunk
Jan 4, 2008, 07:00 PM
But are you a rich mug? :)Rich in spirit. :cool:

calculus
Jan 4, 2008, 07:07 PM
I know of 2 people so far who have returned their iPhones for other "smart phones"

Panic breaks out at Apple ...

evillageprowler
Jan 4, 2008, 07:31 PM
As an American, I am sorry that our friends on the other side of the Atlantic who would like an iPhone have issues with it (pricing, coverage or provider restriction).

I agree with the poster (whatever?) who asserts that the problems in the UK, FR and Ger are more an issue with the telco than with Apple. It seems to me that many (but not all!) of the posters here seem simply to be lashing out at Apple in a misguided sort ot of way. I'd like to hear one good (i.e., rational, logical) explanation why the complaints about the contract is to be levelled at Apple's doorstep instead of at the telco's.

Too much about Apple's so-called greed strikes me as typical blah, blah, blah that one usually finds on a free-for-all Internet message board or blog.

BTW, I an not an Apple "fanboy" (or "girl"). I have never owned any Apple products until recently - an IPT 16G. True, I will probably one day buy an Apple computer and an iPhone, but that is by no means guaranteed (especially if the missus has any say about this).

I am mostly reading this thread and following Apple issues to see if AAPL stock offers good short-term or long-term investment opportunities. That so many posters in this thread vent emotionally instead of logically is just so much noise.

EVP

OllyW
Jan 4, 2008, 07:41 PM
As an American, I am sorry that our friends on the other side of the Atlantic who would like an iPhone have issues with it (pricing, coverage or provider restriction).

I agree with the poster (whatever?) who asserts that the problems in the UK, FR and Ger are more an issue with the telco than with Apple. It seems to me that many (but not all!) of the posters here seem simply to be lashing out at Apple in a misguided sort ot of way. I'd like to hear one good (i.e., rational, logical) explanation why the complaints about the contract is to be levelled at Apple's doorstep instead of at the telco's.

Too much about Apple's so-called greed strikes me as typical blah, blah, blah that one usually finds on a free-for-all Internet message board or blog.

BTW, I an not an Apple "fanboy" (or "girl"). I have never owned any Apple products until recently - an IPT 16G. True, I will probably one day buy an Apple computer and an iPhone, but that is by no means guaranteed (especially if the missus has any say about this).

I am mostly reading this thread and following Apple issues to see if AAPL stock offers good short-term or long-term investment opportunities. That so many posters in this thread vent emotionally instead of logically is just so much noise.

EVP

The reason we are shifting some of the blame onto Apple for the high tariffs is because they are the only phone manufacturer which demands a cut of the monthly subscription. The phone operators are just passing this charge on to the customer, resulting in poor value packages.

Project
Jan 4, 2008, 08:12 PM
You and me both.

As I see it at the moment, only rich people and, to be blunt, mugs, have got iPhones in the UK. When I see one -- and I don't see that many in comparison with the number of Crackberries, I just feel sorry for the person. I don't think that's the message Apple want to promote!

Can only speak for myself but i'm neither rich, nor a mug. And you definitely dont have to feel sorry for me.

The iPhone is so far ahead of the N series Nokia I had prior to it that it, and my WM corporate phone that it is worth the extra £10 a month I am paying on this contract...and even then I get unlimited data too.

I think what O2/Apple could do to alleviate some of the bad press is shift the contracts down so that:

£35 a month gets you 500 texts / 600 minutes
£45 a month gets you 500 texts / 1200 minutes

And have a bolt on for unlimited texts on there too. Throwing in more texts really cant hurt O2 financially can it?

CrackedButter
Jan 4, 2008, 08:20 PM
Even if the estimates are wildly wrong (which they aren't) we know that Apple are making a huge amount of profit on each iPhone sold. Especially compared to Macs. And Apple uses off-the-shelf components to build the iPhone, we know exactly where they come from and how much they cost, so the estimates are probably fairly accurate.
.

This is getting a bit desperate just to prove a point, you're all over the place. Please stop you don't know what you're talking about, you're just getting second hand information from blogs and rumour sites and trying to present them to me in an argument as fact. Unless Apple speaks for itself everything is pure speculation.

CrackedButter
Jan 4, 2008, 08:22 PM
But why drop the price. What is Apple a charity? Maybe the oil companies should drop the price of oil too. Come on, it's supply and demand, pure and simple. People don't want a 3G or a smart phone, they want an iPhone.

There will never be cheap oil! It's a resource who's demand has exceeded it's supply. I wish Apple and others would promote digital delivered content (game, movies and music) as a way to reduce dependancy and waste of oil (yes, we care about reducing waste with jewel cases, but meanwhile we forget about the disc itself).

I didn't ask Apple to drop the price but thanks for hijacking the discussion. I originally pointed out the flaw in Apple's reasoning when it comes to their products.

Matti
Jan 4, 2008, 08:52 PM
BTW, I an not an Apple "fanboy" (or "girl"). I have never owned any Apple products until recently - an IPT 16G. True, I will probably one day buy an Apple computer and an iPhone, but that is by no means guaranteed (especially if the missus has any say about this).

I am mostly reading this thread and following Apple issues to see if AAPL stock offers good short-term or long-term investment opportunities. That so many posters in this thread vent emotionally instead of logically is just so much noise.

EVP

Internet fan sites are horrible place to look info for investments. Good place for heated discussions, not so much for anything trustworthy of your savings.
(and just in case: Didn't mean to flame you. Only an advice.)

Glenny2lappies
Jan 5, 2008, 08:27 AM
iPhone envy

Guilty as charged m'Lud:-)


...I think what O2/Apple could do to alleviate some of the bad press is shift the contracts down so that:

£35 a month gets you 500 texts / 600 minutes
£45 a month gets you 500 texts / 1200 minutes

And have a bolt on for unlimited texts on there too. Throwing in more texts really cant hurt O2 financially can it?

(The current rates are £35=200/200, £45=600/500 -- £1=US$2)

And allow 1 month's worth of rollovers.

Then it will be a better deal.

With the exception of the ridiculous data roaming charges (£7.50/Mb in Europe) and expensive out-of-plan phone charges (20p/min).

evillageprowler
Jan 5, 2008, 09:41 AM
The reason we are shifting some of the blame onto Apple for the high tariffs is because they are the only phone manufacturer which demands a cut of the monthly subscription. The phone operators are just passing this charge on to the customer, resulting in poor value packages.

This is a poor reason to blast Apple. I see nothing wrong with Apple negotiating to their satisfaction with AT&T, Orange or any other carrier. If a carrier wants to squeeze maximum profit from this endeavor by passing (some of) the cost onto the customers, then that is a problem with the carrier.

As I see it, Apple produced a gadget that has significant "wow" factor and sets itself apart from the rest of the pack. A carrier that signs on with Apple to sell the iPhone should be able to use this opportunity to acquire more customers. It seems that the European carriers simply want to rake in maximum profit by riding the iPhone wave and passing the burden onto the customers (the subscription fees) and Apple (reputation and development costs).

There are two unanswered questions that may affect how I view this discussion:

1. Did Apple negotiate too much of a one-sided contract with the carriers?

2. Factoring in the contract with Apple, can it be shown that the carriers truly cannot offer better plans and still make selling iPhones a worthwhile endeavor (to the carriers)?

EVP

PS Matti - I understand what you're saying; this place ranks very low on my list of places I use for gathering information on financial decisions. Still, it does offer insight on some relevent issues and is usually a fun sight to read/troll. Thanks for the advice.

Matti
Jan 5, 2008, 10:10 AM
This is a poor reason to blast Apple. I see nothing wrong with Apple negotiating to their satisfaction with AT&T, Orange or any other carrier. If a carrier wants to squeeze maximum profit from this endeavor by passing (some of) the cost onto the customers, then that is a problem with the carrier.


On your first post you said it was silly to blame Apple for maximizing profit.
Now you do the same to carriers. Besides, it's not really providers maximizing profit. More like them getting the usual profit. They don't give montly payments to any other manufacturer. Look at it from the view point of their investors. Why pay extra, when they can load customers with other high selling phones without paying extra to manufacturer.

And I agree with you on there being nothing wrong with Apple negotiating to their satisfaction in moral terms. It's just that I think releasing phone designed for the American market and using same business model as in American market was really stupid business desicion from Apple. Europe is huge and advanced phone market and Apple could have done so much better (in business & profit sense).


As I see it, Apple produced a gadget that has significant "wow" factor and sets itself apart from the rest of the pack. A carrier that signs on with Apple to sell the iPhone should be able to use this opportunity to acquire more customers. It seems that the European carriers simply want to rake in maximum profit by riding the iPhone wave and passing the burden onto the customers (the subscription fees) and Apple (reputation and development costs).

That's the strategy AT&T took. Apparently european telecoms didn't think that iPhone would be sexy enough in Europe for that strategy. Judging from the OKish sales, reached with the most hyped phone ever, they were propably correct. Also there's the extra cost of building EDGE coverage, which european networks don't really have (I'm not from Uk, but I've seen threads about O2 building more coverage).

em500
Jan 5, 2008, 10:43 AM
Well, the worst part is that Apple is tying their phone to one network per country, and are actively sabotaging it if you want to use another network. With any other phone, if you don't like the network plan or coverage, you just get it from another telco.

Of course, it's Apple's phone, and lots of people find them very desirable so they can do whatever they want. But they're no better in my book than those shady inkjet printer manufacturers who chip their cartridges to lock out aftermarket ink.

I mean, imagine if BMW came up with a cool new car with an ingenious new control system, but then restrict them so they only take Shell gas and get kickbacks from Shell (who in their turn charge the special-BMW owners more for the same fuel). I would just leave the whole deal, unless the car was so revolutionary that it drives itself or it can fly or something. Sure, the iPhone is cool, but not that cool. Apparently, many of Europeans agree: of interest, not that many sales.

evillageprowler
Jan 5, 2008, 11:06 AM
Matti -

I am reminded of Vodaphone's disastrous venture into the Japanese cellphone market a few years ago. They didn't understand the differences between the Japanese and the Europeans. Vodaphone applied a successful European business model to a vastly market and got crushed.

It appears as if Apple's iPhone European sales will be much more successful than Vodaphone's venture into Japan, but still I concede that the application of a successful American business model into Europe will quite likely not achieve desired results.

I am much more familiar with the Asian markets for cellphones (and other electronics equipment) than I am with European markets.

However, I find none of this to be on point with my assertion that Apple is largely blameless for the high cost of the monthly subscription rates being offered by the various European telcos that are attached to the iPhone.

2. Factoring in the contract with Apple, can it be shown that the carriers truly cannot offer better plans and still make selling iPhones a worthwhile endeavor (to the carriers)?

Your comment about the sexiness of the iPhone and having to support EDGE implies that you think the European telcos anticipated difficulties in being profitable unless they passed some of the cost onto their customers.

(You may be right about this... I truly don't know!)

1. Did Apple negotiate too much of a one-sided contract with the carriers?

If this were true, then I think it is less about the greed of Apple and more about poor business assessment.

EVP

Matti
Jan 5, 2008, 11:28 AM
1. Did Apple negotiate too much of a one-sided contract with the carriers?

If this were true, then I think it is less about the greed of Apple and more about poor business assessment.

EVP
It could be that Apple just couldn't get better contracts than these. As I understand, Apple did shop around many service providers and these were the best deals they could get.

The whine fest about iPhone lacking 3G, better camera, GPS and so forth might have been coming from telecos also and not just from internet-geeks (like me). Maybe European providers looked at the phone, saw the great UI but not much anything that would make it a great seller.

Anyway I seem to just get back to my original point. Apple should have made either more richly featured version for european market or not expected high-end model pricing with the current model.


Apple can't really approach phone markets like they did with mp3-player market. Mobilephones are allready a huge market with huge companies in it. When they got to mp3-players there were few geeks using those. In 2007 there were 3 billion people (50% of humanity) using using mobilephones. This time it's not small corporations like Creative that they are against. Nokia, Erickson etc. are totally different league.

With iPod they could shape the market into their liking. That won't work with phones, yet they seem to be acting like they could. Now their European partners are just loading the extra cost to consumers. I've read news pieces about very rocky negotiations in Japan and China, so Asian telecoms don't seem too happy either about this new approach.

sjo
Jan 5, 2008, 02:03 PM
It could be that Apple just couldn't get better contracts than these. As I understand, Apple did shop around many service providers and these were the best deals they could get.


you can't be serious. take off your apple shaped glasses already. if apple couldn't get any better contracts than this they could have made the phone available through several operators in each market making the operators compete who provides the most attracting plans. only reason for not doing so is that such agreements might not have been as profitable for apple...

Matti
Jan 5, 2008, 02:18 PM
you can't be serious. take off your apple shaped glasses already. if apple couldn't get any better contracts than this they could have made the phone available through several operators in each market making the operators compete who provides the most attracting plans. only reason for not doing so is that such agreements might not have been as profitable for apple...

Why don't you take your trollish shaded glasses off. Did you read anything else I wrote? I wasn't exactly applauding Apple.

Yes they could have made it freely availeable on many operators or totally non-locked.

I meant best deals they could get with their business model ,which includes exclusivity, carrier lock-up and monthly payments to Apple.

And the rest of my post was about how dumb their business model is and how risky that is for European and Asian markets.

evillageprowler
Jan 5, 2008, 04:10 PM
Matti - don't sweat what 'sjo' wrote. To paraphrase a wise man: "internet fan sites are a good place for heated discussions..."

:)

Cheers,

EVP

Matti
Jan 5, 2008, 04:44 PM
Matti - don't sweat what 'sjo' wrote. To paraphrase a wise man: "internet fan sites are a good place for heated discussions..."

:)

Cheers,

EVP

:D

You got the "man" part correct, not so sure about "wise" though.

bg.f
Jan 8, 2008, 05:27 AM
I am sorry, Mr Jobs.
But Orange s unable to sell your phones.
To get an advice is marathon,
To see an Iphone in every Orange Shop is impossible,
And, last, the provider's offer for Iphone, goes against the usual Orange politics.
Ex: when I go back home, I have a wifi box provided by apple.
If i buy one of their cellulars, stamped UNIOK, it makes call on IP when near home, and toggles to the network in real time when you go furtehr away, seamlessly.

Well, IPHONE IS WIFI, but the offer is unavailable....

Won't work as well as you thoght it would, I think....

aristobrat
Jan 29, 2008, 09:19 AM
My question was asking why the European carriers price their iPhone plans so expensively compared to their other plans.
Interesting to see O2 bring their iPhone tariffs closer to their regular tariffs.

http://www.o2.co.uk/iphone/o2tariffsforiphone/existingcustomers
* Existing £35 iPhone customers
We will be automatically upgrading you to the new £35 iPhone tariff which offers you 600 anytime minutes and 500 anytime texts a month. You will also continue to receive unlimited* UK data. All of this will be done for you without you having to do a thing and we'll text you to let you know when it's been done. Thank you for being an O2 customer.
* Existing £45 iPhone customers
We will be automatically upgrading you to the new £45 iPhone tariff which offers you 1,200 anytime minutes and 500 anytime texts a month. You will also continue to receive unlimited* UK data. All of this will be done for you without you having to do a thing and we'll text you to let you know when it's been done. Thank you for being an O2 customer.
* Existing £55 iPhone customers
We will be reducing the price of your 1,200 anytime minute iPhone tariff from £55 to £45. You will continue to get 500 anytime texts and unlimited* UK data at this new price. All of this will be done for you without you having to do a thing and we'll text you to let you know when it's been done. Thank you for being an O2 customer.

Philsy
Jan 29, 2008, 09:21 AM
Interesting to see O2 bring their iPhone tariffs closer to their regular tariffs.

http://www.o2.co.uk/iphone/o2tariffsforiphone/existingcustomers

Interesting. Shame they don't bring in a cheaper tariff for those of us that don't want to pay £35 a month which, in anyone's books, is a large chunk of money.

jnc
Jan 29, 2008, 09:23 AM
Interesting. Shame they don't bring in a cheaper tariff for those of us that don't want to pay £35 a month which, in anyone's books, is a large chunk of money.

That's what I was thinking. Sure, we're getting more, but it's still the same amount of money spent (unless you were on the crazy £55 plan). They should have kept the 200/200 plan but just made it more affordable - I'm never going to use 600 minutes and 500 texts

Hell, I'd never use 200 minutes and 200 texts... a £25 200/200 would have been super tempting, but looks like I'm holding out for the next gen (I already have an 18 month n95 contract started last april, plus an iPod touch)