HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray Battle Over? Warner Switches to Blu-Ray

[CWallace]

how long til we see blu ray drives in our macs?

You can have it now if you don't require it to be an Apple-branded solution. A number of companies make Blu-Ray drives certified for the Mac Pro. And Roxio's Toast will support them.

As to an Apple-branded solution, here is hoping it is announced with 10.5.2.

[diamond.g]

You can have it now if you don't require it to be an Apple-branded solution. A number of companies make Blu-Ray drives certified for the Mac Pro. And Roxio's Toast will support them.

As to an Apple-branded solution, here is hoping it is announced with 10.5.2.

Is there an OS X based solution for playing BD movies?

[DakotaGuy]

blu ray i feel issuperior due to its ability to produce 1080p and its resistance to scraches and what not

Actually both are 1080p discs. I like the idea of the scratch resistance surface. I don't have scratch issues with my personal collection, but for rentals it would be nice. I went with HD DVD and if I had to do it over again I would have went with Blu-ray, but I can always add a player in the next year or two when the prices come down. I have bought a few HD DVD's of movies that I really wanted on eBay from the people who are panicking and selling like new movies for pennies on the dollar. Why pay $30 when you can get something for $10 or less?

[CWallace]

Is there an OS X based solution for playing BD movies?

A quick Google search didn't turn any up...

If Blu-Ray and HD-DVD playback still require HCDP on the display end, then it is likely that Apple will release Blu-Ray hardware and software simultaneously with new Apple Cinema Displays since the current ones lack it.

[barijazz]

You can buy an optical drive that can plug into your mac pro (internal).

Right here http://www.mcetech.com/blu-ray/

[barijazz]

blu ray i feel issuperior due to its ability to produce 1080p and its resistance to scraches and what not

Both HD dvd and blu ray can do 1080p BUT blu ray has more disk space so a whole movie can fit into it. And as for scratches HD dvd has more protection than blu ray and is more resistant to scratches.

[gkarris]

Well, HD DVD appears to be ramping down.

Toshiba's price drop was really to get rid of inventory.

Paramount will return to Blu-ray.

Universal is going to get help from the BDA to get its HD DVD catalog re-encoded and mastered for Blu-ray.

Not to mention the rumors of the PS3 going to $299...

HD DVD was a great and affordable format anyways - too bad they couldn't agree on BD in the first place like DVD and make it easier on everyone...

These guys are insiders. They're usually on the mark:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/rumormill.html#012108

1/21/08

Things do not appear to be looking up for HD-DVD these days, folks. Based on the reports we're getting from sources at the studios and in the retail industry, this format war is all but over, from a practical standpoint at least. Frankly, we'd be surprised if HD-DVD still a viable commercial home video format much past the end of the year.

Word we're hearing - and no, not just from sources inside the BDA - is that Best Buy is not only planning to favor Blu-ray in their stores going forward, but may also be planning the gradual phase out of HD-DVD by the end of the 2nd quarter of 2008, so they can focus entirely on selling Blu-ray to their customers in the 2008 holiday season with a clear message. These sales you're seeing on HD-DVD hardware right now are - from the retailer's perspective - about clearing them off the shelves. Don't look for them to restocked much. The exact timing of this will depend on sales, and HD-DVD software will continue to be stocked for a while to service those customers who have already purchased players. But despite the retailer's public statements, which help Toshiba save face, privately they know which way the wind is blowing.

So too do Universal and Paramount. Paramount is expected to announce a return to Blu-ray Disc by mid-year, if not sooner. They reportedly want to give Toshiba some time to sell out current inventory, and to make their own preparations. Paramount at least has done all the ramp-up work needed to release on Blu-ray, as they've already done so as recently as last year.

Universal's position is a little more perilous, on the other hand, as they're more than two years behind all the other major studios in terms of Blu-ray development. Word is their HD-DVD video encodes can't simply all be ported over to Blu-ray, as some of them "aren't good enough." So some of the digital film masters have to be re-encoded, which is a lot of work. Sources are telling us that one of the things Universal is hoping to negotiate with the BDA is help doing just that. Nevertheless, expect Universal to have at least announced a decision to support Blu-ray going forward, likely in addition to HD-DVD, by the end of the year.

As for Toshiba's statements that they haven't yet lost the format war, again this is all about saving face. Yes, Toshiba hasn't officially waved the white flag... but it seems as if the rest of the industry is starting to wave it for them. Even Apple's Steve Jobs has now declared Blu-ray the victor in this thing (see this piece at CNBC), though like Microsoft's Bill Gates, Jobs is already talking past high-def discs to promote downloading as the future (for the record, we think both of them are significantly overestimating the speed with which consumers will embrace downloading over packaged media). So while the fat lady may not quite be singing yet for HD-DVD, let's put it this way: She's already standing out there on stage, all gussied up nice, with the band warming up, the spotlights lit and the curtains about to rise.

Frankly, Toshiba is going to have to create their own branded Blu-ray Disc player/recorder for the Japanese market or risk being left completely in the dust in its home territory, which is now 90% dominated by Blu-ray (and recorders are the preferred device in that market). So Toshiba's smartest move, at least in our opinion, would not only be to quickly embrace Blu-ray... but to move fast to create the best and most affordable Blu-ray/HD-DVD Combo player to sell here in the States. Right now, the available Combo players tend to be buggy and cost over $700. If Toshiba were to make a truly reliable one available for less than $500 in time for the holidays... they MIGHT actually move some units to early adopters and enthusiasts that have already purchased a lot of HD-DVD titles, but who will be looking to get into Blu-ray later this year. Guess we'll see.

Stay tuned...

[bayol05]

Just got a PS3 and BluRay is amazing!!!! I'm very pleased HD DVD is going dowwwn. No offense HD DVD fans...

[MikeTheC]

Not to restate the obvious here, but...

This continues not to impact me in the slightest. I'm hoping to be able to buy an iMac prior to the introduction of BluRay to the platform (even though this may sound counter-intuitive to you folks) because I simply refuse to help prop up a DRM system pioneered/championed/etc. by my former employer.

And yes, I know that by that logic I would be propping up CSS by buying a "current" system; however as a purely practical matter there's no getting around having a regular DVD drive.

And while we're on the subject, doesn't it bother anyone here that our society is so ready and willing to bend over and grab ankles at the slightest whim of whichever company out there has enough power to de-factoize whatever product they want?

[gkarris]

^^^^ I don't get your rant.

Do you not watch any digital media? Do you just read books?

[Blogger]

^^^^ I don't get your rant.

Do you not watch any digital media? Do you just read books?

Not a bad thing in my world. To be honest, books provide a lot more than any digital media, but necessitate an effort on behalf of the user. Not really something that people are willing to do these days, unfortunately.

[gkarris]

^^^^

Kindle and eBook - DRM's for book reading... you will not escape! You will be told what to read and watch, when and how many times to pay for it! :eek:

Anyways, the article I found stated Best Buys were starting to fade out HD DVD's. The one I was at last week has already expanded the Blu section, starting taking over the HD DVD one - was wondering about that...

[janstett]

You can have it now if you don't require it to be an Apple-branded solution. A number of companies make Blu-Ray drives certified for the Mac Pro. And Roxio's Toast will support them.

As to an Apple-branded solution, here is hoping it is announced with 10.5.2.

the problem is there is no way to play back Blu-ray movies, you have to go PC to do that.

[Martin C]

how long til we see blu ray drives in our macs?
When someone makes a slot-loading Blu-Ray drive at a reasonable price.

[Nermal]

In the week following the Warner announcement 92.53% of HD Media player units sold were Blu-ray in the US.
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/miscgfx2/hdmarketsdjan081st2weeks.jpg

I'd like to post NPD's own "commentary" about these figures.

As you may have seen, there are attempts being made to portray NPD's weekly sales tracking figures for next generation DVD as a trend. We want to remind you and make clear that it is not accurate to make long term assumptions based on one week of sales -- a cautionary point that NPD has made as well.

The facts are that during the week that is being singled out, both Blu-ray disc players and software were being given away for free with the purchase of 1080p TVs. It is also important to note that the instant rebate promotions that had previously netted Toshiba's players' MSRPs to $199 and $249 had actually ended on Jan. 5th -- causing an increase in HD DVD's MSRP back to $299 and $399 during that same week. Since Toshiba's retail price move on Jan. 13th to $149 / $199 -- Toshiba is seeing very positive sales trends at retail. This reinforces the fact that price is a significant driver of sales.

Toshiba's HD DVD players represent a significant value to the consumer and the marketing campaign that just began is proving effective.

[gkarris]

I'd like to post NPD's own "commentary" about these figures.

Not to mention the fact the "free Blu players" were with high-def sets costing $200 more now compared to last week.... :eek:

Spinning - 'round and 'round we go, were we stop, nobody knows... :p

[Shua]

Spinning - 'round and 'round we go, were we stop, nobody knows... :p

I'll take Blu for 200 Alex!

[aristotle]

I'd like to post NPD's own "commentary" about these figures.
Are you aware that Toshiba has and continues to offer "free" HD DVD players with their Toshiba LCD HDTV line and that some stores were even ironically offering free HD DVD players with the purchase of Sony LCD TVs?

If Toshiba has been doing this all along, how is it suddenly tainting the numbers when Sony offers a similar promotion? How does this explain less than 2000 consumers buying HD DVD hardware in the same week?

[Nermal]

I can't find the link at the moment, but Toshiba does not include "freebies" in their sales figures.

[MacNut]

I can't find the link at the moment, but Toshiba does not include "freebies" in their sales figures.http://www.electronichouse.com/article/free_blu_ray_players_boosted_numbers/C157
I'm not sure if that is the link you are referring.

The claim is that the numbers are a quick jump because of the freebies.

I also may have just Mattscotted™ the thread.

[Mr. Mustard]

im just moving on to VHS. GO ANALOG!

[CWallace]

im just moving on to VHS. GO ANALOG!

Laser disc is where it's at, of course. :p

[kwood]

Laser disc is where it's at, of course. :p

And I just finished backing up my documents to tape drives.

[Nermal]

http://www.electronichouse.com/article/free_blu_ray_players_boosted_numbers/C157
I'm not sure if that is the link you are referring.

It's not. I've found the one (http://blogs.msdn.com/ptorr/archive/2007/12/04/open-season-hits-2-world-scratches-head.aspx) I was thinking of but note that it's not from an official source.

[SactoGuy18]

...I believe there are negotiations going on right now "behind the scenes" for a graceful exit of the HD-DVD format.

In my personal opinion, I expect the following to happen:

1) Toshiba around April 2008 will announce a phaseout of the HD-DVD format that will be completed by the end of 2008.

2) Toshiba will sell a lower-cost combo HD-DVD/Blu-ray (Profile 1.1 compliant) player as a transitional product.

3) Toshiba will start selling its own brand of Blu-ray Profile 1.1 and 2.0 players starting January 2009.

4) Both NBC Universal and Paramount will announce Blu-ray titles to be available starting late summer to early fall 2008.

5) Time-Warner will announce a program to trade in your HD-DVD discs for their Blu-ray equivalents (provided you include original HD-DVD disc and proof of purchase bar code on HD-DVD package).

6) With new, lower-cost chipsets for Blu-ray players now becoming available, the cost of Profile 1.1 players drops under US$200 and Profile 2.0 players drops under US$250 by December 2008.

[Nermal]

In the graph above, the first week of this year was almost 49% HD DVD. I don't think Toshiba's about to throw in the towel.

[MacNut]

Never happen, HD-DVD won't go down without a fight. I still see this war going on a while. From what I have heard HD still has a lot to offer. People seem to like the menus of HD-DVD better.

[RaceTripper]

.
5) Time-Warner will announce a program to trade in your HD-DVD discs for their Blu-ray equivalents (provided you include original HD-DVD disc and proof of purchase bar code on HD-DVD package).NFW

[Nermal]

People seem to like the menus of HD-DVD better.

I've never used BR so I can't comment from that perspective, but I find the HD menus "interesting". One of the selling points was a unified menu system, however it seems to only be partially unified.

All of my Universal movies have slide-in menus that come in from the left and cascade outwards. My Warner ones come in from the bottom and function more like tabs. I also have one movie from the Weinsteins and that uses a "classic" DVD-style system. It appears that the "unification" is per studio, rather than a feature of the format itself.

[aristotle]

In the graph above, the first week of this year was almost 49% HD DVD. I don't think Toshiba's about to throw in the towel.
1. That was hardware sales in the US while disc sales were 80%+ for blu-rasy for both weeks in the US.
2. In New Zealand/Australia HD DVD was not even a contender from what I've been told.

[RaceTripper]

I don't care about the menus. I don't even really care about extra/special features. I didn't care who wins. I just wanted a single format so I can get to doing what I enjoy doing, watching movies. I was on the sidelines and even stopped buying standard DVDs. Now I have two PS3s I use as BD players.

I really doubt HD DVD is going to get a chance because it has better menus. Most people aren't even going to consider that when they pick a player. The deciding factor will be the software. If all the movies are on BD, it doesn't really matter what HD DVD has to offer over BD.

HD DVD is merely gasping and wheezing for air at this point.

[imbored]

I don't think it's quite over yet. Lots of people were commenting that this is the final blow to HD, but I don't think that punch has been thrown yet.

Now if apple were to include Blu-Ray players in their next model...

[Nermal]

Now if apple were to include Blu-Ray players in their next model...

Indeed, I can't wait for an HD/BR DVD-compatible playback app. Apple promised one way back in April 2005 but have yet to deliver :mad:

[RaceTripper]

Now if apple were to include Blu-Ray players in their next model......it would have little to no influence on the outcome of the format war.

[kwong2006]

In the graph above, the first week of this year was almost 49% HD DVD. I don't think Toshiba's about to throw in the towel.

I think you purposefully neglected a very important part of the graph. The first week was BEFORE Warner announced it is going Blu-Ray exclusive. Once they did, HD-DVD sales plummeted to only 7% of the total sales.

Toshiba will probably throw in the towel soon.

[DakotaGuy]

2) Toshiba will sell a lower-cost combo HD-DVD/Blu-ray (Profile 1.1 compliant) player as a transitional product.

5) Time-Warner will announce a program to trade in your HD-DVD discs for their Blu-ray equivalents (provided you include original HD-DVD disc and proof of purchase bar code on HD-DVD package).


Well I hope Toshiba will build a good dual format player for a decent price. I know I would buy one. I have bought a few HD DVD's on eBay since the Warner announcement. I spent with shipping no more then $12-13 for great HD movies. I am sure they will only get cheaper so I will buy a dual format player just for the cheap HD media. $5 HD movies...here I come!

As far as your second point, I honestly do not think this will happen. There has never been anything done like that in the history of business. I sure wish some company would have let me trade in my VHS movies for DVD's when they came out.

Even if HD DVD movies stop being published at the end of the year there will still be a market for players, drives and dual format players into the future. I am sure recordable media will come to their line of computers as well. Toshiba isn't just going to stop everything some rainy day in June. Since they are the only company making them it will turn into a profitable little niche for them. There are a few million HD DVD's out there and people are going to keep playing them for years to come. I am not so worried about having the latest and greatest technology that I would throw away a 1080p HD DVD to re-buy the same title in a 1080p Blu-ray. Honestly why would you do this? Seems like a waste of money and resources.

[JesterJJZ]

I think dual players will play a big role in this battle no matter what happens.

[Nermal]

The first week was BEFORE Warner announced it is going Blu-Ray exclusive.

Really? It seems to me that it was longer ago than that. Anyway, do we have any week 3 figures anywhere?

[MacNut]

Really? It seems to me that it was longer ago than that. Anyway, do we have any week 3 figures anywhere?What are the actual hard numbers compared to DVD and download sales.

[CWallace]

In my personal opinion, I expect the following to happen:

Time-Warner will announce a program to trade in your HD-DVD discs for their Blu-ray equivalents (provided you include original HD-DVD disc and proof of purchase bar code on HD-DVD package).

I honestly do not think this will happen. There has never been anything done like that in the history of business.

If the total number of HD-DVDs in circulation is low enough, it might just be worth it to the studios to offer discounts on a trade-in program. I agree they will not just swap an HD-DVD title for the Blu-Ray one for no charge other than shipping, but 25%/35%/50% off could get some serious interest and still make the studios money (since they'd do it directly).

Many people with HD-DVD players are not going to be amused to know they now have a dead-end product and now have to re-purchase their library on Blu-Ray to ensure forward compatibility. Those folks will eventually commit to Blu-Ray, just as all of us who owned Laser Disc players eventually committed to DVD, but it will take longer and with rentals, the conversion rate might be lower (I have a few score of Laser Discs I never converted to DVD because it's easier and cheaper to rent them the one time a year or so I have a desire to see them).

[Nermal]

Many people with HD-DVD players are not going to be amused to know they now have a dead-end product and now have to re-purchase their library on Blu-Ray to ensure forward compatibility.

I've decided to stop buying HDs, but not because BR is "winning". I'm stopping due to convenience. Apple is moving glacially slow and I'm sick of rebooting into Windows every time I want to watch a movie. Leopard's DVD player does a much nicer job than Tiger's did, and plain old DVDs actually look nice again. I'm going back to regular DVDs for now, but if Apple ever bothers to put HD DVD support into DVD Player then I'll probably start buying them again.

Over a million HD DVD players have been sold in North America alone. That's a LOT of people that are going to be upset if the format goes nowhere. On the other hand, apart from the convenience issue I mentioned, I still believe I made the right choice: My HD DVD drive and all my movies still cost less than the cost of the BR player alone in NZ*.

* At the time I bought my HD DVD drive, PS3 was the only BR player available and it was still at $1199.

[RaceTripper]

If the total number of HD-DVDs in circulation is low enough, it might just be worth it to the studios to offer discounts on a trade-in program. I agree they will not just swap an HD-DVD title for the Blu-Ray one for no charge other than shipping, but 25%/35%/50% off could get some serious interest and still make the studios money (since they'd do it directly).Like I said before, NFW. The studios have no real incentive to do this and they would not make money if they did it directly, as they don't have a direct to customer sales channel setup. It would cost them money to implement and manage this. In the big picture of things, it won't make much -- if any -- difference to their bottom line to have owners of HD-DVD software feeling left out in the cold. Most of them will get over it eventually and switch to whatever has software available.


Many people with HD-DVD players are not going to be amused to know they now have a dead-end product and now have to re-purchase their library on Blu-Ray to ensure forward compatibility.These people all made their own bed. Taking sides in a war means you have to expect to either win or loose, and if you loose there should be no expectation to get concessions from the winner. I'm sorry for those who put their eggs in the HD-DVD basket, but all I can say is too bad.

I understood this and stood on the sidelines until I was fairly confident of the outcome. I bought two PS3s this month, but in the past two years I vastly reduced my DVD purchasing and did not purchase any HD software.

[MacNut]

These people all made their own bed. Taking sides in a war means you have to expect to either win or loose, and if you loose there should be no expectation to get concessions from the winner. I'm sorry for those who put their eggs in the HD-DVD basket, but all I can say is too bad.

I understood this and stood on the sidelines until I was fairly confident of the outcome. I bought two PS3s this month, but in the past two years I vastly reduced my DVD purchasing and did not purchase any HD software.What is to say that in another 2 years a new better format will kill Blu-Ray. Technology is going to start moving fast now. Something better will take over and it will happen faster then ever before.

[RaceTripper]

What is to say that in another 2 years a new better format will kill Blu-Ray. Technology is going to start moving fast now. Something better will take over and it will happen faster then ever before. Once all the ISPs get bandwidth and performance issues ironed out, physical media will likely become obsolete altogether. Blu-ray is quite possibly the last physical media based system for movie distribution. I'd be surprised if it lasts as long as DVD has. If it does, it'll be a niche product like LaserDisk was.

[theotherguy]

Guys, Guys , Guys,

NONE of this matters... Warner, FOX, Disney? They're not going to decide this issue!

What really matters is what the PORN industry decides.

Not kidding....

Have you ever seen PORN in HD?! It's kind of, well, gross. Some things are better left blurry.

I might add too that the VHS/BETA thing happened before the internets. I think the vast majority of folks have chosen the internet as their delivery channel for the stuff and are not as inclined to watch it on the tv like they were 20-some years ago. I don't think the porn industry has much sway in this debate.

[robanga]

Have you ever seen PORN in HD?! It's kind of, well, gross. Some things are better left blurry.

I might add too that the VHS/BETA thing happened before the internets. I think the vast majority of folks have chosen the internet as their delivery channel for the stuff and are not as inclined to watch it on the tv like they were 20-some years ago. I don't think the porn industry has much sway in this debate.

In general entertainment I have noticed that a lot of actors/actresses look a bit easier on the eyes in SD. Not there is anything wrong with freckles and wrinkles but it certainly changes your image of some them.

That said, I imagine videographers are still learning how to optimize shooting with an HD audience in mind. It reminds of the early days of film when it was quickly learned that the subject needed lots of very white makeup to look good on the big screen.

[bigandy]

I might add too that the VHS/BETA thing happened before the internets. I think the vast majority of folks have chosen the internet as their delivery channel for the stuff and are not as inclined to watch it on the tv like they were 20-some years ago. I don't think the porn industry has much sway in this debate.

I agree completely. What was relevant 20 years ago when people didn't have teh internets, isn't relative now.

If I'd been looking for porn back then (let's imagine I'd have been older, 5 is a bit young to start watching really), I think I'd much rather have gone to a video store and picked up a VHS to watch at home, rather than sit in a theatre with a... let's leave that there.

That was a revolution in 'personal entertainment', but the following revolution has passed already - it's called the internet.

There's not going to be huge demand for media based pornography if you ask me - the internet has it's 'grasp' on that. It's already completely 'saturated', so there's no need for it any more.

[aristotle]

Once all the ISPs get bandwidth and performance issues ironed out, physical media will likely become obsolete altogether. Blu-ray is quite possibly the last physical media based system for movie distribution. I'd be surprised if it lasts as long as DVD has. If it does, it'll be a niche product like LaserDisk was.
Do you really believe that? Movie downloads are and will remain a niche market. Not everyone wants or needs internet access assuming it is even available in their area. People who "buy" movies to collect will want physical media. Families with small children will want physical media as it is a way to control the viewing habits of the young ones.

I find my PVR and pay per view to be enough of a hassle let alone having to manage downloads. What happens when you run out of space on your Apple TV? how is the average joe going to back up their purchases?

[RaceTripper]

Do you really believe that? Movie downloads are and will remain a niche market. Not everyone wants or needs internet access assuming it is even available in their area. People who "buy" movies to collect will want physical media. Families with small children will want physical media as it is a way to control the viewing habits of the young ones.Really, you mean like how people who want to buy music want the physical media, so they mostly buy CDs?


To answer your question, yes I do believe it. Purchasing and downloading movies in HD will become no more big a deal as downloading songs from iTunes is today. Adding parental control (ratings, viewing periods and limits, etc) will be simply a matter of software on the viewing devices. Storage is getting so cheap and large that space will be a trivial problem & backups won't even be necessary if you can download your purchase again. You just aren't looking very far ahead.

[aristotle]

Really, you mean like how people who want to buy music want the physical media, so they mostly buy CDs?


To answer your question, yes I do believe it. Purchasing and downloading movies in HD will become no more big a deal as downloading songs from iTunes is today. Adding parental control (ratings, viewing periods and limits, etc) will be simply a matter of software on the viewing devices. Storage is getting so cheap and large that space will be a trivial problem & backups won't even be necessary if you can download your purchase again. You just aren't looking very far ahead.
There is a distinct difference between how people listen to music these days and how they watch movies. People want to be able carry their music with them and listen to songs over and over again.

Movies however, are usually enjoyed by people in a home theatre setting sitting on a couch with a large TV or projector screen in front. None of the portable devices on the market are suitable for long term viewing or shared viewing.

I don't see a lot regular people wiring up their living rooms, buying extra hard drives to backup purchases and manage the whole thing. It's too geeky for the average person.

How would you show off your collection to other people? Come on, the reality is that collections require something physical that you can touch. I don't see downloads being used for anything other than rentals and in a small niche market.

[RaceTripper]

There is a distinct difference between how people listen to music these days and how they watch movies. People want to be able carry their music with them and listen to songs over and over again.....Five years from now disk-based movies will be a niche market for those of us who want the very highest quality video and audio (1080p, lessless 7.1 audio). Most everyone else will be doing things like AppleTV rentals, Netflix download rentals, etc. The industry will figure out how to make it simple and attractive to consumers.

That's my prediction.

Personally, I don't feel the need to own movies and I think a lot of people are like that (look at Netfix's success). I just do because there's no good rental model for high quality downloadable movies. I have over 400 DVDs and have started my Blu-ray collection with about 20 disks, but I would be happier to just not have them and rent them on demand, if the quality and price are right (which they aren't yet).

[JesterJJZ]

There is a distinct difference between how people listen to music these days and how they watch movies. People want to be able carry their music with them and listen to songs over and over again.

Movies however, are usually enjoyed by people in a home theatre setting sitting on a couch with a large TV or projector screen in front. None of the portable devices on the market are suitable for long term viewing or shared viewing.

I don't see a lot regular people wiring up their living rooms, buying extra hard drives to backup purchases and manage the whole thing. It's too geeky for the average person.

How would you show off your collection to other people? Come on, the reality is that collections require something physical that you can touch. I don't see downloads being used for anything other than rentals and in a small niche market.

Agreed. I want hard copies of my content on pressed discs that I don't have to backup myself. Also...what about bonus content? Many people look at that as a big part of buying a DVD.

[JesterJJZ]

Once all the ISPs get bandwidth and performance issues ironed out, physical media will likely become obsolete altogether. Blu-ray is quite possibly the last physical media based system for movie distribution. I'd be surprised if it lasts as long as DVD has. If it does, it'll be a niche product like LaserDisk was.

I disagree. CDs will become obsolete far quicker than the video based medium (DVD, BR, HVD, ect...) And CDs are still here and will remain for a long long time. Physical media has a good 50 years left before it dies out.

You also forget that by the time there's enough bandwidth and cheap archival storage available for "everyone" to make downloadable HD movies realistically manageable, we'll already be into Extreme HD or whatever is next so we'll need even more bandwidth and storage for that.

Physical media is here to stay no matter how hard Apple and Microsoft try to kill it.

[janstett]

Never happen, HD-DVD won't go down without a fight. I still see this war going on a while. From what I have heard HD still has a lot to offer. People seem to like the menus of HD-DVD better.

First, HD-DVD has already gone down. Pending an official announcement from Paramount, only Universal will be left. It's over.

Second, when I'm looking for a movie, I don't choose one based on the menu. I choose the movie. I'm not going to pick up "Pirates of the Caribbean" on Blu-Ray and put it down because it has ****** menus. (I own both formats and admit the HD-DVD menus and pip commentary are cool).

[MacNut]

First, HD-DVD has already gone down. Pending an official announcement from Paramount, only Universal will be left. It's over.

Second, when I'm looking for a movie, I don't choose one based on the menu. I choose the movie. I'm not going to pick up "Pirates of the Caribbean" on Blu-Ray and put it down because it has ****** menus. (I own both formats and admit the HD-DVD menus and pip commentary are cool).I think a lot of people want HD-DVD to succeed because of the better interface.

To me this whole "war" comes down to what company will spend more money to get studios to join rather then what is the better format.

[RaceTripper]

I think a lot of people want HD-DVD to succeed because of the better interface.I think if you look at the whole market (not just us geeky types), most people don't care because they don't know about the menu differences between formats. Hell, I don't really know myself because I've never seen a HD-DVD menu & until recently didn't know or care about differences between the two formats. What people really want is for there to be a single clear choice that isn't confusing.

Personally, I just want good movies with high quality.

[MacNut]

More the reason why these companies should of worked together on a unified format.

[CWallace]

I still think physical media will have a major role to play five years from now, and likely ten.

Where "digital downloads" will be most active will be over cable and satellite on-demand services to their boxes. They have the bandwidth to shove 720p and 1080i HD with multi-channel discrete audio to us now, and I imagine they can handle 1080p.

I just don't see internet-based systems like Netflix and iTunes being all that prevalent anytime soon. Sure, for us techno-Illuminati it's a cakewalk to set up an HPTC or :apple:tv and we likely have large pipes with no bandwidth caps. Plus we have "dedicated" home theater set-ups that can take advantage of the content and we don't mind spending months converting our physical media collections to digital.

But we are the exception, not the rule. And when everyone is shoveling down HD content over their cable or DSL internet connection, network performance is going to plummet unless the telcos and cable-cos invest in new ultra-high-bandwidth pipes (OC-1 to the home, anyone?) and that will cost significant amounts of money which means higher monthly prices which will impact adoption rates.

[MacNut]

Isn't it something like 15% of the country on broadband. Not enough people are using it to make it worthwhile.

[CWallace]

More the reason why these companies should of worked together on a unified format.

Considering how they all benefited from the decision to unify on the DVD standard, you would have thought they would do the same with it's successor, wouldn't you?

[MacNut]

Considering how they all benefited from the decision to unify on the DVD standard, you would have thought they would do the same with it's successor, wouldn't you?The easy answer is the PS3, Sony wanted the edge.

[dejo]

Isn't it something like 15% of the country on broadband. Not enough people are using it to make it worthwhile.
More like 53%.
http://www.websiteoptimization.com/bw/0706/

[CWallace]

The easy answer is the PS3, Sony wanted the edge.

I suppose so. But SA-CD was such a revenue booster for them... ;)

Maybe everyone figured combi-players would have launched much earlier and worked a good deal better then they did and folks would be able to use both...

[MacNut]

More like 53%.
http://www.websiteoptimization.com/bw/0706/That number seems high to me. Does it say what the average speed is. 768k is considered highspeed.

[CWallace]

That number seems high to me. Does it say what the average speed is. 768k is considered highspeed.

It looks like anything beyond dial-up is considered broadband per the chart. So even 64kb ISDN would be classified as "broadband".

[MacNut]

It looks like anything beyond dial-up is considered broadband per the chart. So even 64kb ISDN would be classified as "broadband".That is the issue, cable companies are throttling down speeds, how are we going to get on demand movies if they are capping the numbers. To get it to look good you are going to need a huge pipe. I don't see people doing that.

[CWallace]

That is the issue, cable co.s are throttling down speeds, how are we going to get on demand movies if they are capping the numbers.

A valid concern. And even if they don't, cable internet is a shared pool of bandwidth. The more folks using it, the slower it gets. I was the first person in my apartment complex to use Comcast Cable Internet and it was great. Now, a few years later, most of the complex has it (based on all the WiFi networks :D ) and performance fluctuates depending on the time of day as folks use it.

[MacNut]

Don't forget that DSL is no where close to being up to speed to carry movies over the network.


Unless the whole country is wired with fiber it won't work.

[CWallace]

Yup.

Which is why I think physical discs still have a decade or more left in them and the initial push to digital downloads will be to your cable or satellite receiver via their on-demand services over the video links and not over their internet links.

[jb60606]

Don't forget that DSL is no where close to being up to speed to carry movies over the network.


Unless the whole country is wired with fiber it won't work.

Not sure I understand your point -- I've never had a problem retrieving streaming or download to own movies over DSL, from the likes of Cinemanow.com, XBOX360, iTunes and Movielink and over the years my broadband connection has varied from 768kbps SDSL to 6mbps ADSL. I specifically chose DSL because the speed does not fluctuate at all.

Broadband cable is "shared-bandwidth", meaning your speed is highly dependent on the amount of subscribers on the cable network.

I would think that cable would have a more difficult time handling a nation of movie downloaders.

[MacNut]

The pipe is not as wide with DSL, so to download a 1080p movie would take a long time.

[bigwig]

I suppose so. But SA-CD was such a revenue booster for them... ;)
It might have been had they bothered to market it. I saw almost zero penetration in mainstream B&Ms. Another problem, the extreme sampling requirements of 1-bit DSD made the players expensive compared to 24-bit/192kHz PCM.

[jb60606]

The pipe is not as wide with DSL, so to download a 1080p movie would take a long time.

Sorry - I'm straying from the thread's subject.

it takes long over any type of internet connection. HD movies are, on average, a 5-9GB download at 720p. Cable's pipe isn't that much wider (especially when you factor in all the variables that bring a cable connection to it's knees), and it won't help when all cable TV networks go full HD.

Neither are anywhere near adequate for on-demand full HD over the internet. But both can handle SD just fine.

[MacNut]

And that is the reason why internet distribution will never take off unless the infrastructure is completely rebuilt.

[JesterJJZ]

Yup.

Which is why I think physical discs still have a decade or more left in them and the initial push to digital downloads will be to your cable or satellite receiver via their on-demand services over the video links and not over their internet links.

Long live physical media!!! :D

[jaw04005]

More the reason why these companies should of worked together on a unified format.

Sony defected from the DVD Forum because the forum (chaired by Toshiba) adopted Toshiba's blue laser technology instead of theirs.

Toshiba had promised the forum that HD DVD would be ready by 2004. Sony didn't think that was possible, and continued working on what became Blu-ray.

Turns out Sony was right, Toshiba didn't ship HD DVD until mid-2006.

In that same amount time, Sony had turned the Professional Disc for Data (23GB) into Blu-ray (25GB/50GB DL), created a Blu-ray consortium with many of the same members from the DVD Forum and signed on Disney.

The BDA ended up shipping Blu-ray around the the same time as Toshiba's first HD DVD player.

It's an interesting read.

By the way, both groups tried to merge in early 2005. However, Microsoft wanted the BDA to adopt their WindowsCE-based HDi technology. The BDA sided with Sun's Java, and merger talks ended.

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2007/08/29/origins-of-the-blu-ray-vs-hd-dvd-war/

[michaelverdin]

It's a shame more people don't know that HD-DVD is region independant

[lord_flash]

It's a shame more people don't know that HD-DVD is region independant

It isn't. Region coding is part of the specification, but has not yet been adopted by the manufacturers. That's not to say that it wouldn't be, and indeed the forum has hinted that it would be willing to activate this in order to bring the studios on board.

And that might even mean early adopters have to throw away their machines to read new HD DVDs with the coding activated. (Well, if there were any new HD-DVDs.)

It's a shame more people don't know that. Then they'd probably be less quick to support what is in every respect an inferior technology simply because they perceive the lack of early region coding as a pro-consumer move.

[RaceTripper]

It's a shame more people don't know that HD-DVD is region independantIn the big picture, region encoding is not an issue to the vast majority of consumers. It wasn't for the vast majority of DVD consumers either. In fact, I doubt most of them even know what that region 1 icon on the back of their DVD means.

[aristotle]

It's a shame more people don't know that HD-DVD is region independant
As others have noted, regions are in the spec for HD DVD but it has not been enforced. Ironically, prior to their switch to Blu-ray exclusivity, New Line delayed Hair spray on HD DVD because HD DVD did not have regions and the movie was still in the theatre in some markets. If HD DVD had won several studios would have insisted on regions being enforced.

But I have to tell you that contrary to the HD DVD propaganda, most Blu-ray titles are are region free except for some new releases but there is a provision in the blu-ray spec to retire region locking after a one year period.

Here is a list of 95 region free blu-ray that I either own or have on order:
http://www.dvdspot.com/list.php?member=aristotles&filter=1464733866

In that collection, I have imports for Germany, the UK and Scandinavia in addition to my Region A titles. You should also note that Japan, and Korea (IIRC) are also in Region A.

Here is a site that has a list of titles both new and catalogue that are region free:
http://bluray.liesinc.net/

[iTouchMyself]

It's a shame more people don't know that. Then they'd probably be less quick to support what is in every respect an inferior technology simply because they perceive the lack of early region coding as a pro-consumer move.

It's a shame that more people didn't consider Sony's use of root-kits on CDs as pro-consumer as well. ;)

I understand studio may be pusing it, but the reality is still that one format is more restrictive, whether that's 1% or 100% more is a matter for fanb0is to discuss, just like whether or not one is fundamentally inferior or not.

Siding with either of them and "their pay off the studios at the expense of the consumer" console-style strategy is more a view of personal foibles than issues with the hardware.

At this point BR didn't win they simply didn't die first, they're going to go down that same drain as well because neither is a hit with consumers, and the OTA, sattelite, cable and FIOS crowd all just laugh and say "what you want me to pay extra for that headache?". VOD is already cutting into DVD sales and rentals, with more of it moving to HD content it looks like BR and HD just took too long to get off the ground to matter. I own both, and couldn't care less about buying all my collection on HD versus just specific titles, get me LOTR on either and also Star Wars adn Aliens and I'm good for 'purchased' content.

[andrewface]

i always said bluray

[CWallace]

Toshiba is widely expected to pull the plug on its HD DVD format sometime in the coming weeks, reliable industry sources say, after a rash of retail defections that followed Warner Home Video's announcement in early January that it would support only the rival Blu-ray Disc format after May.

Officially, no decision has been made, insists Jodi Sally, vp of marketing for Toshiba America Consumer Products. "Based on its technological advancements, we continue to believe HD DVD is the best format for consumers, given the value and consistent quality inherent in our player offerings," she said.

But she hinted that something's in the air. "Given the market developments in the past month," she said, "Toshiba will continue to study the market impact and the value proposition for consumers, particularly in light of our recent price reductions on all HD DVD players."

Hollywood Reporter Link (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3ib77125d96b22e86027d0bfb0c25aa58d)

If true, it looks like Toshiba is losing so much money on every HD-DVD player they are fire-selling that it's cheaper to just cut the cord and formally end support for the format as a manufacturer.

[Anonymous Freak]

Hollywood Reporter Link (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3ib77125d96b22e86027d0bfb0c25aa58d)

If true, it looks like Toshiba is losing so much money on every HD-DVD player they are fire-selling that it's cheaper to just cut the cord and formally end support for the format as a manufacturer.

Damn... And I haven't even gotten the five free-by-mail movies from the HD DVD player I got for Christmas. (I sent the form off about two days before WB's announcement. No other time in my life have I wished I could recall an item sent by post.)

[gauchogolfer]

Today, Wal-Mart announced they'll only sell Blu-ray discs in the future, and phase out stocks of HD-DVDs.

Link (http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/15/technology/wal-mart_blu-ray/index.htm?cnn=yes)

[takeabyteoutta]

i always said bluray

and you'll pay for it too. Optical disk technology is becoming dated anyways. Downloadable content is the way of the future. You might as well skip to the next chapter and get an AppleTV.

[RaceTripper]

and you'll pay for it too. Optical disk technology is becoming dated anyways. Downloadable content is the way of the future. You might as well skip to the next chapter and get an AppleTV.No Thanks. Not while iTunes is DRM'd and Apple can revoke what you buy at anytime. At least with my DVDs and BD movies I can always watch what I already purchased as long as I have functioning hardware. Downloadable content is a bad proposition for consumers as long as the music/movie industry insists on crippling content with DRM.

As for AppleTV and pay content, I might have been interested in it for movie rentals, but the current rental terms are unreasonable.

[mflender]

and you'll pay for it too. Optical disk technology is becoming dated anyways. Downloadable content is the way of the future. You might as well skip to the next chapter and get an AppleTV.

I will take 1080p (Blu Ray) over 720p (Apple TV) any day. What happens when you upgrade to a new version of the Apple TV hardware down the road? What happens if the hard drive dies in it?

[JesterJJZ]

Downloadable content is the way of the future. You might as well skip to the next chapter and get an AppleTV.

No it's not. You can say that once CDs are phased out. And that won't happen for a good while. Movies will take well beyond that.

[3dmac]

I think blue ray sounds better.:):)

[JesterJJZ]

I think blue ray sounds better.:):)

I feel the opposite. I always felt that the name HD DVD sounds more like what the true successor to DVD should be. They should change the name once it's only one format left. And please get rid of those awful blue cases.

[Blogger]

I'll take two syllables over five any day.

[RaceTripper]

They should change the name once it's only one format left. And please get rid of those awful blue cases.Oh sure. That's a good idea. I can see it now...

Customer: I bought a Toshiba HD-DVD player from you last year, and now none of your new HD-DVD disks work with it.
Retailer: That's a Blu-ray era HD-DVD player and you just bought a post era HD-DVD disk. It's really Blu-ray. You need a new HD-DVD player.
Customer: WTF are you talking about?
Retailer: you have a red player...you need a blue player
Customer: you're an idiot...where's the manager

[SVT Amateur]

Oh sure. That's a good idea. I can see it now...

Customer: I bought a Toshiba HD-DVD player from you last year, and now none of your new HD-DVD disks work with it.
Retailer: That's a Blu-ray era HD-DVD player and you just bought a post era HD-DVD disk. It's really Blu-ray. You need a new HD-DVD player.
Customer: WTF are you talking about?
Retailer: you have a red player...you need a blue player
Customer: you're an idiot...where's the manager

Haha.

I have a HD-DVD player myself but I just got notification a couple of days ago from Netflix that since most of the major companies are backing Blu-Ray they as well will be phasing out HD-DVD. It truly looks like this format is dead.

[Lancetx]

I'll take two syllables over five any day.

I couldn't agree more. When I hear someone say "HD DVD" it almost sounds like they're stuttering. It certainly doesn't slide off the tongue nearly as easily as Blu-ray, that's for sure. :)

[Hankster]

and you'll pay for it too. Optical disk technology is becoming dated anyways. Downloadable content is the way of the future. You might as well skip to the next chapter and get an AppleTV.

Downloads won't be the norm for at least another ten years. Televisions, especially HD ones won't be connected to the Internet. Besides, people want to "own" the movie on some sort of media.

I'm very sad to see that one media won, even though having both wasn't good for us. Now blu has a monopoly on HD.

[JesterJJZ]

I couldn't agree more. When I hear someone say "HD DVD" it almost sounds like they're stuttering. It certainly doesn't slide off the tongue nearly as easily as Blu-ray, that's for sure. :)

Too bad HDV is already taken...

[Bakey]

Long live physical media!!! :D

The majority of people want something tangible - a downloaded movie isn't!

The audio CD has a lot of life left in it yet; the very fact that all of the digital disc formats are based upon the same essential "12cm disc" allows for a quantifiable perspective at each of the established formats, ie. audio/data CD together with data & video based DVD - I know it's only a question of time but that time is quite away off!!

[Shua]

Toshiba is pulling the plug on HD-DVD Life Support system.

Offical news should be coming in the next week.

Long Live Blu!

[erickkoch]

I guess the HD DVD add-on to my Xbox360 was not a good investment. Live and learn.

[gkarris]

Toshiba is pulling the plug on HD-DVD Life Support system.

Offical news should be coming in the next week.

Here's an article:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Toshiba/Report:_Toshiba_to_Drop_HD_DVD/1468

Report: Toshiba to Drop HD DVD
Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:29 PM ET


The Hollywood Reporter is citing "reliable industry sources" as saying that Toshiba is on the verge of officially dropping its HD DVD format.

Though Toshiba denies that any such decision has been made, the just-published article in The Reporter points to "substantial" losses from each HD DVD player sold and a series of high-profile defections as key motivators for the company, with one unnamed source close to the HD DVD camp telling the Reporter that "an announcement is coming soon... it could be a matter of weeks."

Asked to respond to the report, Toshiba VP Jodi Sally reiterated her company's support of the HD DVD format. "Based on its technological advancements, we continue to believe HD DVD is the best format for consumers, given the value and consistent quality inherent in our player offerings," said Sally.

The exec went on to address "the market developments in the past month," saying only that "Toshiba will continue to study the market impact and the value proposition for consumers, particularly in light of our recent price reductions on all HD DVD players."


Long Live Blu!

BAD thing. Competition is good.

When Blu-ray is the only one, look for:

1. Raise in or no price drops of Blu-ray discs.
2. The contraint token turned on (HD DVD never turned it on), DVD quality for anyone NOT using HDMI (that's my home theater - on component. Why would I buy the Blu-ray then?).
3. Blu-ray discs implementing Region Encoding on all new releases (they don't region encode almost all discs right now since HD DVD is regionless).
4. Crap encoding - no HD DVD to compete against. Fox has already announced that a bunch of new releases will use the older MPEG-2 encoding. Why bother when you don't have another format to compete with?

It's a mixed bag...

[MacNut]

Im still not convinced that one format is better then the other. All I know is that Sony marketed it better and threw more money at the studios to get them to join up. It should of been a consumer choice to decide a winner not big business tactics. I used to love Sony but in the past few years they have gotten to sleazy. I was kinda hoping they would of been brought down a few pegs.

[Blogger]

BAD thing. Competition is good.

When Blu-ray is the only one, look for:

1. Raise in or no price drops of Blu-ray discs.
2. The contraint token turned on (HD DVD never turned it on), DVD quality for anyone NOT using HDMI (that's my home theater - on component. Why would I buy the Blu-ray then?).
3. Blu-ray discs implementing Region Encoding on all new releases (they don't region encode almost all discs right now since HD DVD is regionless).
4. Crap encoding - no HD DVD to compete against. Fox has already announced that a bunch of new releases will use the older MPEG-2 encoding. Why bother when you don't have another format to compete with?

It's a mixed bag...

In this case I think competition was a bad thing. It was slowing adoption rates due to consumer uncertainty and confusion. Now that there is one standard for HD I think we'll see a lot more people buying in. Remember Sony is not BD, there are a lot of BD manufacturers, unlike HD DVD which pretty much only had Toshiba, and they will be competing against each other. As far as disk prices goes, BD is now only competing with DVD, and if the Studios want people to adopt HD, they won't be able to price the disks at an astronomic level compared to DVDs.

Region codes have never been an issue for me.

There was talk on another forum of HD encodings being poor because they only did one encoding for both formats, and the space-limited HD DVD dictated that. So we might see an improvement there with luck.

[Blogger]

Im still not convinced that one format is better then the other. All I know is that Sony marketed it better and threw more money at the studios to get them to join up. It should of been a consumer choice to decide a winner not big business tactics. I used to love Sony but in the past few years they have gotten to sleazy. I was kinda hoping they would of been brought down a few pegs.

Actually it was consumer choice. They bought more BD players and disks, which is why Warner switched, and why Blockbuster, Netflix, Best Buy, Walmart etc, etc. switched.

[MacNut]

Actually it was consumer choice. They bought more BD players and disks, which is why Warner switched, and why Blockbuster, Netflix, Best Buy, Walmart etc, etc. switched.Is the PS3 factored into those numbers or is it stand alone players.

[Shua]

BAD thing. Competition is good.
Not when it holds back both formats. Since a lot of people have been waiting for the war to end before jumping in. Also it means that all of the titles will be on one format. Screw having to spend $1000.00 to get a dual player that doesn't do either format justice.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1627196120080216
This is better as it comes from Toshiba themselves.

1. Raise in or no price drops of Blu-ray discs.
Come on, be reasonable. Once DVD became the ONLY format for movies many moons again did the price go up? No. Its fear mongering like this that makes no sense.
2. The contraint token turned on (HD DVD never turned it on), DVD quality for anyone NOT using HDMI (that's my home theater - on component. Why would I buy the Blu-ray then?).
Good question. Blu-Ray has the ability to Push more Data thru the pipes so you can get a better picture and audio. They let the companies releasing the movies decide what they want to do with them. Why did people move from VHS to DVD? If you won't get any benefit out of Blu-Ray movies then Rent a movie from iTunes or your local video store, etc... If you are happy with your Black & White TV then be happy with it.

3. Blu-ray discs implementing Region Encoding on all new releases (they don't region encode almost all discs right now since HD DVD is regionless).
Funny it hasn't been an issue. It has been optional since the begging
http://bluray.liesinc.net/ Take a look and you will see about half the Discs have no encoding what so ever. Why would this change now? Yes Blu-Ray has three (YES three whole) Region codes and yes HD-DVD had zero. DVD had seven. So less is better. Are you also telling me that you refused to buy DVDs as you couldn't play them anywhere you want? *scoff*

4. Crap encoding - no HD DVD to compete against. Fox has already announced that a bunch of new releases will use the older MPEG-2 encoding. Why bother when you don't have another format to compete with?
Its easy. Look at 5th Element. It sucked the first time around. People had issues and they re-released a remastered version of it that was truely Hi-Def! Everything is optional. The Customers will decide. But the problem with your logic here is one major thing you seem to miss. DVDs are encoded at a smaller size then Blu-Ray. You can use the same encoding on anything you want. Some movies are shot and transfered better in MPEG-2. MPEG-2 is a compression not the Quality of the source before and after.

DVDs are 720x480 = 345,600 pixels Maximum
Blu-Ray Movies are 1920x1200 = 2,304,000 Pixels Maximum

That means that Blu-Ray movies can store 6.66x more data then a DVD for the same exact picture. More Pixels means more information, its that simple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Common_Video_Resolutions_2.svg

I will say if you are running anyhting less then a 40" TV you might not notice a huge difference I will give you that, but as your screen size grows you can see more details in the movies.

[zioxide]

Is the PS3 factored into those numbers or is it stand alone players.

PS3 and the 360 HD-DVD addon were both factored in iirc.

[Shua]

Is the PS3 factored into those numbers or is it stand alone players.

It depends on who's numbers you are talking about. Some do not include them as they are considered a "Gaming" system that happens to play Blu-Ray movies. In fact I bought a PS3 for playing Blu-Ray movies as it is the higest rated sub $500.00 Blu-Ray Player that does almost as a good of job of up-scalling Standard DVDs and other media formats to Hi-Def as the $900.00 stand-alone players. Plus when my nephew comes over he can always play games when we aren't watching movies.

[Blogger]

DVDs are 720x480 = 345,600 pixels Maximum
Blu-Ray Movies are 1920x1200 = 2,304,000 Pixels Maximum



I think that's 1920x1080 = 2,073600 pixels.

[RaceTripper]

...

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1627196120080216
This is better as it comes from Toshiba themselves.
....It does not come from Toshiba. It's just another one of those "Toshiba is expected to..." reports we've been seeing ad nauseum the past couple days. Toshiba has not yet made an announcement.

[Shua]

I think that's 1920x1080 = 2,073600 pixels.

What can I say I math well. But my math is far better as its 6.66 x the data since everybody seems to think Blu-Ray is the devil.

[Shua]

It does not come from Toshiba. It's just another one of those "Toshiba is expected to..." reports we've been seeing ad nauseum the past couple days. Toshiba has not yet made an announcement.

Yes you are correct, I am mistaken on the source. It is actully a Radio station out of Japan not Toshiba's JP parent company.

[zap2]

I will take 1080p (Blu Ray) over 720p (Apple TV) any day. What happens when you upgrade to a new version of the Apple TV hardware down the road? What happens if the hard drive dies in it?

What happen if your disk is brake? If the harddrive failed, I'ld have back ups, and I'd have it fixed And when I upgrade to the next ATV, I'll just resync all my shows...

[zap2]

PS3 and the 360 HD-DVD addon were both factored in iirc.

flawed logic...if people we're buying HD DVD add for 360, they were playing HD DVD disk..if you buy a PS3, we don't know what that will be used for.


But either way, if doesn't matter. Blue Ray has won...now the question is how good will digital downloads do vs physical media...

[Shua]

http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSL1637974620080216

TOKYO (Reuters) - Toshiba Corp (6502.T: Quote, Profile, Research) is planning to give up on its HD DVD format for high-definition video, conceding defeat to the competing Blu-Ray technology backed by Sony Corp (6758.T: Quote, Profile, Research), a company source said on Saturday.

Japanese public broadcaster NHK had earlier reported that Toshiba would suffer losses in the tens of billions of yen (hundreds of millions of dollars) as it scrapped production of HD DVD players and recorders and took other steps to exit the business.

The company source told Reuters that Toshiba was in the final stages of planning to exit the HD DVD business and that an official decision would be made soon.

(Reporting by Mayumi Negishi, Kentaro Hamada and Nathan Layne, editing by Mike Peacock)

That bird is done.

[Shua]

...now the question is how good will digital downloads do vs physical media...

Easy. iTunes movie rental stood up quite well to Blu-Ray but Blu-Ray clearly had the advantage (720p vs 1080p, not a big shock that 1080p looked better).

I enjoy watching movies from time to time even ones I have seen 20+ times. The problem is that four HD movie downloads is $20.00. on the fifth watch you could have bought the Blu-Ray Version of the movie. If Apple did a subscription service more like NetFlix it would have been an easy slam dunk for me to drop NetFlix and do iTunes. Its all a mater of how often you want to watch a movie. Some people will watch a movie once and never go back again. Some others enjoy watching the same movie over and over. Its all personal preference.

[SactoGuy18]

4. Crap encoding - no HD DVD to compete against. Fox has already announced that a bunch of new releases will use the older MPEG-2 encoding. Why bother when you don't have another format to compete with?


Given the fact that higher-end desktop computing power is so cheap nowadays (you can get a well-loaded quad-core CPU machine for under US$4,000!), computer workstations now have the "oomph" needed to encode a movie in VC-1 or AVC format for the Blu-ray disc format fairly easily. Besides, I expect most new Blu-ray releases will be encoded in VC-1 or AVC, mostly because it saves on disc space and allows for more "extras" on a single disc.

[gkarris]

Given the fact that higher-end desktop computing power is so cheap nowadays (you can get a well-loaded quad-core CPU machine for under US$4,000!), computer workstations now have the "oomph" needed to encode a movie in VC-1 or AVC format for the Blu-ray disc format fairly easily. Besides, I expect most new Blu-ray releases will be encoded in VC-1 or AVC, mostly because it saves on disc space and allows for more "extras" on a single disc.

Not really. FOX just announced "I, Robot" and ID4 will use MPEG-2 encoding for the Blu-ray releases.

On my front projection, I can tell. I got a PS3 and some older Blu-rays are in MPEG-2 and I can see some artifacting, compared to my HD DVD's.

Don't get me wrong, though, I like the fact it's down to one format. Like DVD, it ultimately depends on what the studios decide to do with it.

Some studios have stunning DVD releases, some are crap. I assume Blu-ray will be the same.

[JesterJJZ]

Not really. FOX just announced "I, Robot" and ID4 will use MPEG-2 encoding for the Blu-ray releases.

On my front projection, I can tell. I got a PS3 and some older Blu-rays are in MPEG-2 and I can see some artifacting, compared to my HD DVD's.

Don't get me wrong, though, I like the fact it's down to one format. Like DVD, it ultimately depends on what the studios decide to do with it.

Some studios have stunning DVD releases, some are crap. I assume Blu-ray will be the same.

Ehh...it would be nice to have ID4 look its best...

[tonyshucraft]

Im still not convinced that one format is better then the other. All I know is that Sony marketed it better and threw more money at the studios to get them to join up. It should of been a consumer choice to decide a winner not big business tactics. I used to love Sony but in the past few years they have gotten to sleazy. I was kinda hoping they would of been brought down a few pegs.

"I'll give you $1200 for each Sony PS3 you find on the shelf in North America"

[bommai]

Not really. FOX just announced "I, Robot" and ID4 will use MPEG-2 encoding for the Blu-ray releases.

On my front projection, I can tell. I got a PS3 and some older Blu-rays are in MPEG-2 and I can see some artifacting, compared to my HD DVD's.

Don't get me wrong, though, I like the fact it's down to one format. Like DVD, it ultimately depends on what the studios decide to do with it.

Some studios have stunning DVD releases, some are crap. I assume Blu-ray will be the same.

Wrong info. ID4 is already out in Japan and it is AVC. Fox has pretty much completely transitioned to AVC and I believe the info for iRobot and ID4 are wrong. They will both use AVC.

[Towhead]

You know what's funnier than *****? The way I get to play Devil's Advocate for a dying format without having spent a dime on it, comfortable in my position with a large number of Blu-Ray discs purchased for half price or less.

Long live HD-DVD.

[DakotaGuy]

Well I bit the bullet tonight and bought a Blu-ray player (Panasonic DMP-BD30) and put all my HD DVD's on eBay. I do a lot of renting from Netflix and since HD DVD is going to be no more soon it is either to Blu-ray or back to SD DVD. I looked at getting a PS3, but the guy said if I don't game and am just buying a movie player the Panasonic might prove to be a more heavy duty unit. It is a profile 1.1 so I should be good for the new extra features coming. I was suprised that the unit was Made in Japan. That is quality compared to most consumer electronics.

As the old saying goes, if you can't beat them, join them.

[markrivers]

can't be happier with my PS3 purchase...yehey!:D