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hvfsl
Jan 4, 2008, 06:11 PM
Warner has gone totally BluRay.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/22507036/site/14081545

There is no way HD-DVD can survive now, with only 2 major studios on board (Paramount and Universal). It will be interesting to see if this makes Universal go neutral, but I guess that depends on what kind of deal they have with the HD-DVD camp. Paramount are of course stuck with HD-DVD for the next year or so after signing their exclusive deal back in the summer.

I am sure Sony had something to do with this, but then it does make sense for WB as 300 on BluRay far outsold the HD-DVD version, even though the HD-DVD version had more extras.



Much Ado
Jan 4, 2008, 06:18 PM
So...the best format wins?

JNB
Jan 4, 2008, 06:19 PM
More important to this crowd, however, is this tidbit from the same article: "Of course, Warner's news comes amid a flurry of speculation that Apple Inc. will also give its nod to Blu-ray at the company's big Macworld trade show coming up on January 15"

zioxide
Jan 4, 2008, 06:21 PM
ha, its not over yet.. but this is good for the blu-ray side.

bigbossbmb
Jan 4, 2008, 06:22 PM
Booyah!!!

I had a feeling this was coming, but wasn't expecting it until next week.

Awesome news... let the HD DVD lovers whine.


Edit: Weak, they're still going to release HD DVDs through May, albeit after a delay from the DVD/Blu-Ray release.

neoserver
Jan 4, 2008, 06:33 PM
Don't get ahead of yourselves people... there is still time left. Personally I think it's great news that the technically superior format is slated to win the war... but you never know what may happen...

Lancetx
Jan 4, 2008, 06:43 PM
You can stick a fork in HD DVD now. And WB will cease HD DVD production as of May 2008 according to the press release.

Main reason I'm happy about this news is because Microsoft is dealt a major defeat here. They had propped up HD DVD only because they wanted both formats to fail (they want you to have to download your movies from them instead), and now they won't be getting their way. The consumer is the big winner today as this opens things up for Blu-ray to be the successor to DVD.

Flynnstone
Jan 4, 2008, 06:53 PM
It doesn't matter.

LG has a Bluray & HD DVD player.
Beta vs VHS battle was because they were mechanically not compatible.

If I can buy a black box that I can stuff Bluray, HD-DVD DVD, CD .... and out comes 1080p video, I really care about the format.

KurtangleTN
Jan 4, 2008, 07:23 PM
I like how every other week we seem to have "The format war is over!!" only for the other side to be countered.

Let's hope they don't, Apple goes BR and it's over, then I can buy one without worrying about it becoming obsolete.

Really as more people get PS3s and PS3 owners get HD-TVs, it's only a matter of time before BR wins out with the support from the PS3s.

Cleverboy
Jan 4, 2008, 07:58 PM
The Format-War LOST its way a long time ago. This is a victory that can only be described as "Phyrric". The war was lost when Paramount went over to HD-DVD right before the 2007 holiday shopping season began in earnest... sending Shrek 3 and Transformers, two of the three top grossing films of 2007 into the camp of the perceived loser (a gesture that would have ended things immediately had it gone the other way).

Millions of consumers doing their holiday shopping recieved a barrage of conflicting propaganda belly-hooing the merits of each format. Now, implicit in the wreckage across the expansive battlefield is an abiding sense of confusion and general disinterest. The format war has not yet ended, but with this announcement, we may hopefully see the end of the tunnel.

That said, I fully expect Walmart to announce that it has gotten a new shipment of Toshiba HD-DVD players for 2 cents tomorrow, and analysts will astutely point out that Toshiba is losing no less that $1,500 on each unit.

Was it really worth the cost, people? Meanwhile, the real battle has begun for the "format" Bill Gates predicted would immediately follow the short-lived HD disc war. Digital downloads and streaming media are going into hyperdrive with Microsoft, Apple, Netflix, Amazon, TiVo, and others prepping in their corners. XBox 360 DVR, Apple TV with dual cable cards, TiVo series 4, Unbox Unlimited... Blu-what? HD DV-who?

~ CB

valdore
Jan 4, 2008, 08:00 PM
I heard awhile back that HD was winning over BluRay because the porn industry sided with HD, similar to what happened with VHS and Beta when the porn industry went with VHS.

bloodycape
Jan 4, 2008, 08:02 PM
I like how every other week we seem to have "The format war is over!!" only for the other side to be countered.

Let's hope they don't, Apple goes BR and it's over, then I can buy one without worrying about it becoming obsolete.

Really as more people get PS3s and PS3 owners get HD-TVs, it's only a matter of time before BR wins out with the support from the PS3s.

Yeah but could the same not be said the more and more people get an xbox360 the more and more they are likely to get the HD-DVD add on(or if the rumors pans out HD-DVD would be built in)?

Cleverboy
Jan 4, 2008, 08:04 PM
I heard awhile back that HD was winning over BluRay because the porn industry sided with HD, similar to what happened with VHS and Beta when the porn industry went with VHS.That rumor was set straight a while back... straight, bi, or gay... whichever really.

http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquirer/news/2007/01/17/blu-ray-loves-porn-after-all

Once you get past the sensationalist headlines, there's more to it. Big-time porn studio Vivid has announced its first Blu-ray porn movie, so there's obviously a leak somewhere in the Blu-ray condom. Even the Blu-ray disc Association has reacted quickly by saying there is no ban against adult movie content.

It's true that Sony doesn't care for porn on its devices. It was unhappy when porn started arriving on the UMD disc format for the PSP and from certain quotes by porn makers, Sony is not actually being that helpful with Blu-ray. It's not blocking them but, at the same time, it's not exactly pointing them in the direction of Blu-ray disc manufacturers that can help them out. Many are having to find their own production sources.

You can say a lot of things about Sony but stupid isn't one of them. Well, most of the time anyway. There is no way that Sony can ignore the boost that porn can give the Blu-ray format. There are probably some older Sony execs that still have Betamax-related nightmares involving being chased by giant VHS video cassettes with enormous breasts.

~ CB

Mitch1984
Jan 4, 2008, 08:09 PM
I want Bly ray to win. I'm worried that microsoft are gonna mess Bly rays chances by doing that hd-DVD version of the xbox 360???

Cleverboy
Jan 4, 2008, 08:15 PM
I want Bly ray to win. I'm worried that microsoft are gonna mess Bly rays chances by doing that hd-DVD version of the xbox 360???No. That would have also decided it. An earlier statement by Microsoft pointed to their internal position that they would be inclined to make a Blu-Ray external drive available as well, if they feel there is enough consumer interest. The statement was quickly retracted and re-positioned... yet there it sits, like an dark after-image on a window. Microsoft wants nothing less, than to focus primarily on digital downloads and pumping revenue acquired by it through that "float-system", where they get to hold ungodly sums of money from customers who will NEVER be able to get out the full value of what they've purchased in blocks. The physical format war is only a minor distraction for them that they may talk a good game on, but for which they have little long-term concern over.

~ CB

LethalWolfe
Jan 4, 2008, 08:35 PM
I heard awhile back that HD was winning over BluRay because the porn industry sided with HD, similar to what happened with VHS and Beta when the porn industry went with VHS.
The difference between then and now is that then your only options for motion picture porn were a porn theater or VHS (pretty obvious choice). Now you have many different ways to get porn in the privacy of your own home so the "porn HD format of choice" is pretty inconsequential.


Lethal

MacRumors
Jan 4, 2008, 09:18 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Warner Brothers announced today (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/technology/05disc.html?ref=business) that they would be moving their titles from HD-DVD to the Blu-Ray format. Many have suggested that this marks the end of the next generation DVD battle, though two major studios continue to have exclusive HD-DVD distribution deals in place.

Warner Brother's defection, however, places the majority of movie releases on Blu-Ray:


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2008/01/04/warner_300.png

2007 Marketshare graph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HighDefShare.svg) updated by iEdd (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=4698149&postcount=222)

Even before this new marketshare advantage, however, the New York Times reports that Blu-ray titles had outsold HD-DVD offerings as much as 2 to 1, and had even been chosen for exclusive distribution by Blockbuster.

Apple has been a member (http://www.macrumors.com/2005/03/10/apple-adopts-blu-ray-technology/) of the Blu-ray consortium's board of directors since 2005, but has not publicly announced their Blu-ray plans. Some expect (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/01/03/blu-ray-support-at-macworld-mac-pros-soon/) Apple to officially launch Blu-ray support at Macworld San Francisco.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/01/04/hd-dvd-vs-blu-ray-battle-over-warner-switches-to-blu-ray/)

miketcool
Jan 4, 2008, 09:22 PM
Time Warner did something that made me actually happy? A first!

DiamondMac
Jan 4, 2008, 09:22 PM
I use my PS3 for Blu-Ray's all the time so this is a HUGE plus for me

ppc_michael
Jan 4, 2008, 09:23 PM
That's good, I'm a Blu-Ray guy. I don't have any DVD format in HD, but going by specifications and such, Blu-Ray sounds better to me.

(PS: What's the "other" in the graph?)

2jaded2care
Jan 4, 2008, 09:24 PM
It doesn't matter.

LG has a Bluray & HD DVD player.
Beta vs VHS battle was because they were mechanically not compatible.

If I can buy a black box that I can stuff Bluray, HD-DVD DVD, CD .... and out comes 1080p video, I really care about the format.

As reviews have pointed out, the combo players are more expensive than just buying two separate players. I'll wait until the war is over. (Maybe as soon as Jan. 15th!)

vinny2cubes
Jan 4, 2008, 09:24 PM
Guys, Guys , Guys,

NONE of this matters... Warner, FOX, Disney? They're not going to decide this issue!

What really matters is what the PORN industry decides.

Not kidding....

iBallz
Jan 4, 2008, 09:24 PM
I use my PS3 for Blu-Ray's all the time so this is a HUGE plus for me

Today I was told using the PS3 for watching movies on it will wear it out soon.:confused:

mintlivedotcom
Jan 4, 2008, 09:25 PM
At first I didn't see which companies were colored purple, but after clicking the link, the graph looks much better.

Cooknn
Jan 4, 2008, 09:25 PM
When Paramount bailed I pretty much lost interest. Now the HD-DVD camp knows how we felt then. It sucks for them.

Victor ch
Jan 4, 2008, 09:26 PM
I use my PS3 for Blu-Ray's all the time so this is a HUGE plus for me

Same here, PS3 rules :)

Well lets hope this is over and Blu-Ray becomes the standart for HD. O and of course lets hope Apple will include Blu-Ray in Macs.

-Victor

Mydel
Jan 4, 2008, 09:30 PM
Blu-Ray got PS3 advantage. And whatever people say its pretty good gaming platform with tons of users who will sooner or later start using it extensively as a home entertainment system. Apple is really lacking on that front. Front Row and Apple TV are not even close to PS3 capabilities. Sad but true.

arn
Jan 4, 2008, 09:31 PM
At first I didn't see which companies were colored purple, but after clicking the link, the graph looks much better.

There appears to be a wiki debate going on with the Wiki version of the graph.

Warner Bros has announced that they will be exclusive Blu-ray, but for the moment are doing both. Presumbly due to contractual obligations for HD-DVD.

arn

Stella
Jan 4, 2008, 09:31 PM
Same here, PS3 rules :)

Well lets hope this is over and Blu-Ray becomes the standart for HD. O and of course lets hope Apple will include Blu-Ray in Macs.

-\Victor

The PS3 has been a 'trojan horse' for Blueray... and its pretty good value for that reason alone.

If the PS3 had sold a lot more the Next Gen DVD wars would probably be a bit further along.

LimeiBook86
Jan 4, 2008, 09:32 PM
I've always liked the Blu-Ray format better. Although I don't have any of the HD players it would be nice to just worry about one format and not both. :p :D

madfresh
Jan 4, 2008, 09:32 PM
Of course Blu-Ray is going to end up winning. Why choose something with less memory when you can have more? ;)

mag2001
Jan 4, 2008, 09:32 PM
Good now I convince my other half in buying a ps3 for blue-ray playback since there is not much in price difference in the actual player. :D

Mebsat
Jan 4, 2008, 09:32 PM
Strangely enough as I was watching the Universal HD channel, there were several ads for Blu-Ray titles.

And these ads were in HD, so they were coming direct from the feed.
Not the clumsy 4:3 SD ads that Comcast inserts over every ad they can.

Maybe Universal's on deck too? I'm pretty sure someone at Universal would have had something to say about using their network to plug the enemy's format.

Or maybe they just like Sony's money?

Victor ch
Jan 4, 2008, 09:33 PM
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/04/hd-dvd-group-cancels-ces-press-conference-in-wake-of-warner-anno/

It does seem like they are gonna lose... great for me!! (PS3 user).

"Notice of CES Press Conference Cancellation by North American HD DVD Promotion Group

Based on the timing of the Warner Home Video announcement today, we have decided to postpone our CES 2008 press conference scheduled for Sunday, January 6th at 8:30 p.m. in the Wynn Hotel. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.

We are currently discussing the potential impact of this announcement with the other HD DVD partner companies and evaluating next steps. We believe the consumer continues to benefit from HD DVD's commitment to quality and affordability – a bar that is critical for the mainstream success of any format. (Engadget.com)"

-Victor

rezonat0r
Jan 4, 2008, 09:34 PM
What really matters is what the PORN industry decides.

Not kidding....

Seriously? This argument again? What format the porn industry chooses (and there is porn on BOTH formats) decides nothing when you have INFINITE amounts of streaming pornography available on the net. So let's lay this one to rest shall we?

Honestly, it was not that hard to predict which format would win if you actually bothered to look at the studio support behind each format.

Lynxpro
Jan 4, 2008, 09:34 PM
Guys, Guys , Guys,
NONE of this matters... Warner, FOX, Disney? They're not going to decide this issue!
What really matters is what the PORN industry decides.
Not kidding....


Then you'll be happy to know that porn supports Blu-ray. Vivid supports Blu-ray, and the one company that was super pro HD DVD - that being Digital Playground - announced last month that it would be supporting Blu-ray.

! V !
Jan 4, 2008, 09:37 PM
This news is getting "long-in-the-tooth."

By the time HD-DVD or Blu-Ray even begin to sell the same amount or more compared to DVDs.......HVD will be released. Fare more capacity ~1TB.

Toshiba & Co, and Sony & Co will lose out on a major investment.....the movie industry will also lose out big time. In a sadistic way I feel quite happy with that thought. ;) :D

arn
Jan 4, 2008, 09:37 PM
update:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/HBO/New_Line/Warner/Warner:_New_Line,_HBO_Not_Covered_By_Blu-ray_Announcement/1328

NewLine is still both... so we'll try to update the graph.

arn

Cooknn
Jan 4, 2008, 09:38 PM
Warner Bros has announced that they will be exclusive Blu-ray, but for the moment are doing both. Presumbly due to contractual obligations for HD-DVD.Freaking Paramount yanked existing Blu-Ray titles off the shelf when they went exclusive HD-DVD. All for what, $150 Million?! Seems like a small amount to cut out an entire format. Hell, a good movie makes that in a week at the theater. I would bet that one title could easily make that much over time. I really despise them for what they did.

macfan881
Jan 4, 2008, 09:38 PM
so who wants to take bets that Paramount will be backing out of there deal within the next month or so now :D just bring Transformers on blu ray and ill be happy

Schmoe0013
Jan 4, 2008, 09:39 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/3B48b Safari/419.3)

FYI. Blu-Ray does not have a storage advantage over HD DVD. a dual layer blu-ray holds 50gigs. A triple layer HD DVD can as well.

Granted, there is no one producing them yet, but the standard IS set.

Prof.
Jan 4, 2008, 09:39 PM
This is the best news I've heard in a while:D

Lynxpro
Jan 4, 2008, 09:39 PM
To the Microsoft astroturfing plants who posted here on various threads spreading their FUD support for HD DVD over Blu-ray, I say HA HA!

Now hopefully Warner will stop doing lame VC-1 encodes for their Blu-ray releases and adopt high bit-rate AVC like Sony, Fox and Disney have. VC-1 belongs in the Microsoft dustbin of failure giving company to WMA, PlaysforSure, the Zune, UltimateTV, Windows Live Search, Bob, WinME, and Vista.

aswitcher
Jan 4, 2008, 09:39 PM
I am really glad this thing is finally coming to an end.

Lynxpro
Jan 4, 2008, 09:40 PM
FYI. Blu-Ray does not have a storage advantage over HD DVD. a dual layer blu-ray holds 50gigs. A triple layer HD DVD can as well. Granted, there is no one producing them yet, but the standard IS set.


MSX was a Microsoft set standard too.

syklee26
Jan 4, 2008, 09:41 PM
is it true that PS3's bluray does not support 720P?

iEdd
Jan 4, 2008, 09:41 PM
It seems New Line is still supporting both formats for the time being. This would be a more accurate version of the graph.

rjwill246
Jan 4, 2008, 09:41 PM
Guys, Guys , Guys,

NONE of this matters... Warner, FOX, Disney? They're not going to decide this issue!

What really matters is what the PORN industry decides.

Not kidding....

The PORN industry has dic-tated home standards for ages. Let's hope that these guys go Blu-Ray-- it seems appropriate, no?

Also, anything that shoots Universal is great--- So, GO Blu-Ray and knock MS and Universal into the back seat.

sushi
Jan 4, 2008, 09:42 PM
I am really glad this thing is finally coming to an end.
Before I was on the bleeding edge on things like this.

However, this time I am waiting on the sidelines. It feels good to watch the dust settle before jumping in. :)

Lynxpro
Jan 4, 2008, 09:42 PM
This news is getting "long-in-the-tooth."
By the time HD-DVD or Blu-Ray even begin to sell the same amount or more compared to DVDs.......HVD will be released. Fare more capacity ~1TB.
Toshiba & Co, and Sony & Co will lose out on a major investment.....the movie industry will also lose out big time. In a sadistic way I feel quite happy with that thought. ;) :D


No it won't. HVD won't be affordable for Joe Consumer for another decade. Anyone who thinks otherwise probably should also go ahead and place a down payment on the Mollar flying car while they are at it too.

carlop
Jan 4, 2008, 09:43 PM
HD-DVD? Blu-Ray? Who cares? I'm still not gonna pay 40$ for a crappy 1h30 movie. I say, put them all straight to the 5$ bargain bin, they'll make it there within 6 months anyways, and they'll still be churning a profit.

Until then, I'm sure I can keep myself from looking at Sylvester Stallone's blackheads and wrinkles in High Def.

Schmoe0013
Jan 4, 2008, 09:44 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/3B48b Safari/419.3)

FYI. Blu-Ray does not have a storage advantage over HD DVD. a dual layer blu-ray holds 50gigs. A triple layer HD DVD can as well. Granted, there is no one producing them yet, but the standard IS set.


MSX was a Microsoft set standard too.

yes, but that was a radical change in an effort to standarize a whole lot of stuff.
The tiple layer HD DVD is a progressive step in an already existing technology.

I dont understand your comparison.

Lynxpro
Jan 4, 2008, 09:45 PM
is it true that PS3's bluray does not support 720P?


Not true. I own a PS3. You can set it to output at 720p to match a 720p flat panel.

You can download the 2.10 firmware update that also gives it Blu-ray Profile 1.1 support, Divx support, you name it.

twoodcc
Jan 4, 2008, 09:45 PM
well i'm kinda glad. i hope the war is over

Cooknn
Jan 4, 2008, 09:46 PM
HD-DVD? Blu-Ray? Who cares? I'm still not gonna pay 40$ for a crappy 1h30 movie. I say, put them all straight to the 5$ bargain bin, they'll make it there within 6 months anyways, and they'll still be churning a profit.Don't buy, rent! $8.99/month for unlimited rentals on Netflix. I blazed through all the available BD titles pretty quick though, then it got old. So I wait.

Lynxpro
Jan 4, 2008, 09:47 PM
yes, but that was a radical change in an effort to standarize a whole lot of stuff. The tiple layer HD DVD is a progressive step in an already existing technology.
I dont understand your comparison.


It is a rather easy comparison. MSX is a dead Microsoft platform standard, and HD DVD is a dead Microsoft format.


HD DVD does not count as a platform since the only hardware manufacturer for it was Toshiba, financed by Microsoft.

Nugget
Jan 4, 2008, 09:47 PM
Of course Blu-Ray is going to end up winning. Why choose something with less memory when you can have more? ;)
I'm not interesting in taking technical advice or predictions from someone who doesn't even know the difference between "memory" and "storage."

The fact of the matter is that there isn't a superior solution -- both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD have their own respective pros and cons. The choice isn't nearly as obvious as the fanboys on either side would have you believe.

That said -- I'm glad to hear today's news and I hope it leads to a rapid conclusion to this format war. The sooner there's a clear winner the better off we all are. I don't really care who wins just as long as SD-DVD loses in the long run.

Victor ch
Jan 4, 2008, 09:47 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/3B48b Safari/419.3)

FYI. Blu-Ray does not have a storage advantage over HD DVD. a dual layer blu-ray holds 50gigs. A triple layer HD DVD can as well.

Granted, there is no one producing them yet, but the standard IS set.

Ok... then a TRIPLE layer HD-DVD has 1GB more than a DUAL layer Blu-Ray.... Now how much can a triple layer Blu-Ray hold: more than HD-DVD.

-Victor

Telp
Jan 4, 2008, 09:49 PM
Guys, Guys , Guys,

NONE of this matters... Warner, FOX, Disney? They're not going to decide this issue!

What really matters is what the PORN industry decides.

Not kidding....

Porn industry is slowly starting to release for blu-ray as far as i have heard.

DiamondMac
Jan 4, 2008, 09:50 PM
is it true that PS3's bluray does not support 720P?

Not at all. I have watched several in 1080p and it has looked A-M-A-Z-I-N-G

Schmoe0013
Jan 4, 2008, 09:51 PM
Ok... then a TRIPLE layer HD-DVD has 1GB more than a DUAL layer Blu-Ray.... Now how much can a triple layer Blu-Ray hold: more than HD-DVD.

-Victor

There is no triple layer spec for blu-ray as of yet.

I want to make sure people have accurate facts when debating the war. The point for the HD DVD triple layer disk is to bring to light that you cannot argue one has more storage than the other.

angelwatt
Jan 4, 2008, 09:52 PM
I don't care who wins or loses because neither is getting my money. I find it all a waste of money. Those formats won't last very long anyways because the next generation is already being worked out. I'm more excited about Apple's rumored download service.

syklee26
Jan 4, 2008, 09:52 PM
Not at all. I have watched several in 1080p and it has looked A-M-A-Z-I-N-G

i know PS3's bluray supports 1080p. I read somewhere that PS3 downscales 720p to 480p or something like that. I was going to get PS3 until I read that.

Marlor
Jan 4, 2008, 09:53 PM
DVD will win the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray battle, just as CD won the SA-CD/DVD-Audio battle.

The vast majority of people don't care, despite the technical superiority of the newer technologies. The only way that Blu-Ray could win would be to offer hybrid Blu-Ray/DVD releases for the same price as standard DVDs (i.e. to make people adopt the format by stealth). Until then, both these technologies will just be for Home Theatre wonks.

Prof.
Jan 4, 2008, 09:53 PM
There is no triple layer spec for blu-ray as of yet.

I want to make sure people have accurate facts when debating the war. The point for the HD DVD triple layer disk is to bring to light that you cannot argue one has more storage than the other.

The triple layer Blu-Ray is Sony's weapon of mass destruction in this war.

cleanup
Jan 4, 2008, 09:54 PM
I never bothered keeping up with this crap at all, because at the moment, HD formats/players/TVs are still too expensive for most people. Well, maybe not TVs, but I for one, a poor student, don't have a TV at all.

DVDs are fine for me. I think they look great, even on a large TV, and they're inexpensive.

I don't even know what the difference between Blu-ray and HD-DVD is. :rolleyes:

I mean, is Blu-ray/HD-DVD even on the average consumer's radar yet? I wouldn't know.

thunderclap
Jan 4, 2008, 09:54 PM
update:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/HBO/New_Line/Warner/Warner:_New_Line,_HBO_Not_Covered_By_Blu-ray_Announcement/1328

NewLine is still both... so we'll try to update the graph.

arn

How is that possible? New Line is owned by Warner.

megfilmworks
Jan 4, 2008, 09:54 PM
The battle is over an arid wasteland called physical media.
I own both but I would suggest that if you are not in the biz then pass on both as they will wither into a boutique sliver of market share.

Victor ch
Jan 4, 2008, 09:55 PM
There is no triple layer spec for blu-ray as of yet.

I want to make sure people have accurate facts when debating the war. The point for the HD DVD triple layer disk is to bring to light that you cannot argue one has more storage than the other.

Sorry, just saying... if they want they could produce a triple layer one that will have more than hd-dvd. Nevertheless I just hope this war ends; fast, maybe then I can convince my parents that is well worth to buy a full HD tv to compliment my PS3.

-Victor

Schmoe0013
Jan 4, 2008, 09:55 PM
i know PS3's bluray supports 1080p. I read somewhere that PS3 downscales 720p to 480p or something like that. I was going to get PS3 until I read that.

i'm not sure about the ps3. But i do know that it is a requirement in the blu-ray specs for all content to be 1080p, whereas HD DVD does not require all content to be 1080p

mcarnes
Jan 4, 2008, 09:58 PM
Poor suckers that invested in HD-DVD.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u92/donkeyrokman/laughing7iw8jx.gif

aswitcher
Jan 4, 2008, 09:58 PM
Before I was on the bleeding edge on things like this.

However, this time I am waiting on the sidelines. It feels good to watch the dust settle before jumping in. :)

I think it will be 2009 before HD surrender. I do wonder who else might announce at CES, cheaper players etc now it looks like its sorted.

jdmlight
Jan 4, 2008, 09:59 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/3B48b Safari/419.3)

FYI. Blu-Ray does not have a storage advantage over HD DVD. a dual layer blu-ray holds 50gigs. A triple layer HD DVD can as well.

Granted, there is no one producing them yet, but the standard IS set.
If we're talking theoretical, there are prototype 100gb Blu-ray discs:
Macworld Article (http://www.macworld.com/article/44876/2005/05/tdk.html)

I think that Blu-ray will win simply because there are already burners available. Consumers today demand burning capability from their optical discs, backup being of main concern. If I can use 100 DVDs to back up my 500gb hard drive or 10 Blu-ray or HD-DVDs, I'd choose the 10 discs if for no other reason than the physical space that 100 discs + cases take up.

Nermal
Jan 4, 2008, 10:00 PM
Just great. Goodbye, cheap US imports :mad:

I also hope that Apple doesn't go back on its HD DVD promise.

DiamondMac
Jan 4, 2008, 10:02 PM
If we're talking theoretical, there are prototype 100gb Blu-ray discs:
Macworld Article (http://www.macworld.com/article/44876/2005/05/tdk.html)

I think that Blu-ray will win simply because there are already burners available. Consumers today demand burning capability from their optical discs, backup being of main concern. If I can use 100 DVDs to back up my 500gb hard drive or 10 Blu-ray or HD-DVDs, I'd choose the 10 discs if for no other reason than the physical space that 100 discs + cases take up.

Good post. I was about to same the exact same things. ;)

jrlcopy
Jan 4, 2008, 10:02 PM
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/04/hd-dvd-group-cancels-ces-press-conference-in-wake-of-warner-anno/

We just got an email which stated that the HD DVD group is canceling its CES press conference; tail severely between legs over today's explosive news that Warner -- the last "undecided" studio -- was going to the other side and doing Blu-ray discs exclusively. We're not sure if that's because the HD DVD group was in 11th hour negotiations with Warner or what, but the mood at that camp has to be beyond somber right now, so it's pretty hard to thump the tub when you've just been dealt a hard losing hand. Notice posted after the break.

Update: Toshiba, masters of the HD DVD format, also just issued a press release expressing their "particular disappointment" with Warner -- and also implying that the move to go Blu-ray exclusive is actually in breach of contract. The particularly depressing release is also posted after the break.

Whateva... I prefer HD-DVD, I think it was a more perfected format, new compression technology, and perfect 1.0 profile. Bluray has 3 profiles, discs play on some of them, and uses mpeg2.

However, I like the name and branding of bluray better.

However, I like how you can buy a combo hd-dvd, one side dvd and other side hddvd, honestly I can't see why they aren't promoting the **** out of this. "Buy your movies on HD DVD, watch them in your current player, then when you are ready to upgrade you DONT HAVE TO REBUY THE DAMN DVD"

Stupid people fighting over stupid things, honestly download distribution isn't going to settle this. Bluray will probably win, why?.. because they seem to be the only ones that have a lot of burners on the market, so that indie people like me, can buy them to archive my HD Data which eats up a ton of space.

But this is also going to be a pain in my ass since Bluray players see a burned disc and no encryption and instantly think it is pirated and then won't play it.


Stupid people running these companies!

BrokenChairs
Jan 4, 2008, 10:04 PM
I don't care who wins or loses because neither is getting my money. I find it all a waste of money. Those formats won't last very long anyways because the next generation is already being worked out. I'm more excited about Apple's rumored download service.

Yeah that's how I feel too. I don't really care for HD technology at this stage. And with Blu-Ray players coming out cheaper than PS3's, something else will come along greater and better, blah, blah, blah (insert consumerist/capitalist ideas in here)...I'm tired...like Savoy Brown!

Schmoe0013
Jan 4, 2008, 10:04 PM
If we're talking theoretical, there are prototype 100gb Blu-ray discs:
Macworld Article (http://www.macworld.com/article/44876/2005/05/tdk.html)

.

Prototype vs. standard that could be implemented.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/15/dvd-forum-approves-51gb-triple-layer-hd-dvd-spec/

edit: not commenting on who will win, only availability TODAY of each disk

Ha ze
Jan 4, 2008, 10:14 PM
Good.
Now lets get some BR support from Apple, an external BR drive, and a new version of Handbrake.

Schmoe0013
Jan 4, 2008, 10:15 PM
This "war" only hurts the consumer who wants to invest in the physical discs.
Personally, i bought a hdtv, hd player, and blu-ray player, and am just using netflix. Because I do not have that much invested in the media (the movies), i can just replace the hardware when there is a standard.

Until then, Netflix will continue to be my main source of Blu-Ray and HD DVD movies for my viewing.

Curtis72
Jan 4, 2008, 10:17 PM
I use my PS3 for Blu-Ray's all the time so this is a HUGE plus for me

That was the primarly reason I got the PS3. It was at one point the cheapest Blu-Ray player around.

Others may have commented on this, but New Line is owned by Warner. What Warner does, they will do!

notjustjay
Jan 4, 2008, 10:23 PM
Stupid people fighting over stupid things, honestly download distribution isn't going to settle this....
Stupid people running these companies!

Yep. It's been mentioned before, but it's becoming pretty clear that this "war" isn't about technical superiority, it's about politics and studio control.

I'm not investing in either right now. I don't even have an HDTV yet, so I'm happy to hold off and see what happens over the next year or two.

Prof.
Jan 4, 2008, 10:23 PM
Poor suckers that invested in HD-DVD.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u92/donkeyrokman/laughing7iw8jx.gif
Best.......Post.......EVER:D

megfilmworks
Jan 4, 2008, 10:27 PM
This "war" only hurts the consumer who wants to invest in the physical discs.
Personally, i bought a hdtv, hd player, and blu-ray player, and am just using netflix. Because I do not have that much invested in the media (the movies), i can just replace the hardware when there is a standard.

Until then, Netflix will continue to be my main source of Blu-Ray and HD DVD movies for my viewing.I agree, that is the smartest move, with players selling for pennies on the dollar, it's really library that is the investment. I wish I had thought of that before I bought hundreds of standard def (can you say useless?) dvds.

Stridder44
Jan 4, 2008, 10:27 PM
Guys, Guys , Guys,

NONE of this matters... Warner, FOX, Disney? They're not going to decide this issue!

What really matters is what the PORN industry decides.

Not kidding....


Yes, because HD Discs are the only way to get porn. :rolleyes: If only they had something called the Internet.

Not that I would know...

gugy
Jan 4, 2008, 10:29 PM
I am glad this war is going to be over soon.
I don't care which side wins. I just want a winner so I can finally buy the movies and shows I want.
I tend to like blu-ray just because the larger capacity for back-ups and because Apple picked them. So this is good news.

I hope by the end of 2008 we have a clear winner.

aristotle
Jan 4, 2008, 10:30 PM
i know PS3's bluray supports 1080p. I read somewhere that PS3 downscales 720p to 480p or something like that. I was going to get PS3 until I read that.
Nope. False. But is does not matter now that Wal-mart is selling 40"+ 1080p LCDs for less that 900 dollars.

rezonat0r
Jan 4, 2008, 10:35 PM
Whateva... I prefer HD-DVD, I think it was a more perfected format, new compression technology, and perfect 1.0 profile. Bluray has 3 profiles, discs play on some of them, and uses mpeg2.

Wrong. Both formats support the same video codecs. You are thinking of the very early Blu-ray discs that used MPEG2. As far as the BD profiles go, yeah, it sucks if you bought a BD player that isn't upgradable. But it sucks even more if you invested in HD-DVD ;)

gkarris
Jan 4, 2008, 10:36 PM
They hear the fat lady singing...

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/CES_2008/HD_DVD_Promo_Group_Cancels_CES_Press_Conference/1331

It was among the most highly anticipated press events of this year's Consumer Electronics Show, but following today's announcement from Warner Home Video, this Sunday's press conference from the HD DVD Promotions Group has been cancelled.

Organizers sent out a note to members of the media and invited guests late Friday, attributing the cancellation to the timing of Warner's announcement. A rep for the group told us this evening that the press conference will not be rescheduled, but that the group will still have a presence at the show from its booth on the convention floor.

The full text of the HD DVD Promo Group's email follows below:
Based on the timing of the Warner Home Video announcement today, we have decided to postpone our CES 2008 press conference scheduled for Sunday, January 6th at 8:30 p.m. in the Wynn Hotel. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.

We are currently discussing the potential impact of this announcement with the other HD DVD partner companies and evaluating next steps. We believe the consumer continues to benefit from HD DVDs commitment to quality and affordability a bar that is critical for the mainstream success of any format.

Well continue to keep you updated on new developments around HD DVD.

Stridder44
Jan 4, 2008, 10:38 PM
Whateva... I prefer HD-DVD, I think it was a more perfected format, new compression technology, and perfect 1.0 profile. Bluray has 3 profiles, discs play on some of them, and uses mpeg2.


Too bad it sucks in actual storage space. Blu-ray was better from the get go because of 50GB compared to HD-DVD's 30 GB. And BD isn't stuck to just mpeg2.

Yes, the profile thing sucks for early adopters, but anyone who's an early adopter of anything should know things could go sour. Just look at all the HD-DVD owners :D.

jrlcopy
Jan 4, 2008, 10:41 PM
Wrong. Both formats support the same video codecs. You are thinking of the very early Blu-ray discs that used MPEG2. As far as the BD profiles go, yeah, it sucks if you bought a BD player that isn't upgradable. But it sucks even more if you invested in HD-DVD ;)

The BD-ROM specification mandates certain codec compatibilities for both hardware decoders (players) and the movie-software (content). For video, all players are required to support MPEG-2, H.264/AVC, and SMPTE VC-1. MPEG-2 is the codec used on regular DVDs, which allows backwards compatibility. H.264/AVC was developed by MPEG and VCEG as a modern successor of MPEG-2. VC-1 is another MPEG-4 derivative codec mostly developed by Microsoft. BD-ROM titles with video must store video using one of the three mandatory codecs. Multiple codecs on a single title are allowed.

The choice of codecs affects the producer's licensing/royalty costs, as well as the title's maximum runtime, due to differences in compression efficiency. Discs encoded in MPEG-2 video typically limit content producers to around two hours of high-definition content on a single-layer (25 GB) BD-ROM. The more advanced video codecs (VC-1 and H.264) typically achieve a video runtime twice that of MPEG-2, with comparable quality.

Ah you are correct, I had no idea that it supported things other than mpeg2.

cameronjpu
Jan 4, 2008, 10:42 PM
Golly, it shore seems like putting all the like colors together would have made that chart a bit easier to read, doncha think?

gkarris
Jan 4, 2008, 10:45 PM
Guys, Guys , Guys,

NONE of this matters... Warner, FOX, Disney? They're not going to decide this issue!

What really matters is what the PORN industry decides.

Not kidding....

It's been known for some time now that the videotape format war was different. It made it possible to watch that stuff in the privacy of home.

This war is different. Industry critics said that "Disney will decide this format war".

Looks like they did.... :eek:

Anonymous Freak
Jan 4, 2008, 10:47 PM
Of course.

I just got an HD DVD player for Christmas, so of course HD DVD would lose. It wasn't my choice, I asked for a standard definition DVD recorder/VCR, not any kind of player. But as my old DVD player had conked out, I wasn't about to look a gift horse in the mouth. (I even got 7 free movies out of the deal; although only three of them would I have been willing to pay for at all.)

zioxide
Jan 4, 2008, 10:48 PM
Anyone who suggests that the porn industry will have any effect on this format war is just plain wrong.

Back during the VHS/Beta war, people didn't have the internet so the tapes were the only way they could get porn.

Now, we have the internet, and everyone knows the internet is for porn. Nobody is going to buy porn on HD-DVD or Blu-ray.. they'll just get it online.

Breckenridge
Jan 4, 2008, 10:49 PM
BlueRay is way to go, more data capacity and higher definition for sure. I just love the animated picture depicting people who invested in HD-DVD posted by Prof.

chameleon
Jan 4, 2008, 10:52 PM
I heard awhile back that HD was winning over BluRay because the porn industry sided with HD, similar to what happened with VHS and Beta when the porn industry went with VHS.

Porn is irrelevant in the HD war.

First, you don't need a plastic disc or tape like you did in the 70's when the VHS / BetaMax war happened. Anyone who wants porn can get it for free on the web with a few clicks on Google.

Second, many people in the porn industry don't want to go High Def. It shows much greater detail, including all those flaws, scars and stretch marks.

Bottom line, don't count on Porn to decide the HD war. The studios will decide it, and it looks like they just did...

SWC
Jan 4, 2008, 10:53 PM
Prototype vs. standard that could be implemented.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/15/dvd-forum-approves-51gb-triple-layer-hd-dvd-spec/

edit: not commenting on who will win, only availability TODAY of each disk

except these discs won't play in current units.

Stridder44
Jan 4, 2008, 10:57 PM
Of course.

I just got an HD DVD player for Christmas, so of course HD DVD would lose. It wasn't my choice, I asked for a standard definition DVD recorder/VCR, not any kind of player. But as my old DVD player had conked out, I wasn't about to look a gift horse in the mouth. (I even got 7 free movies out of the deal; although only three of them would I have been willing to pay for at all.)


Just return it. Store credit is better than nothing.

mcarnes
Jan 4, 2008, 10:58 PM
Now, we have the internet, and everyone knows the internet is for porn. Nobody is going to buy porn on HD-DVD or Blu-ray.. they'll just get it online.

You obviously haven't seen Crissy Moran in high definition.

(jk) ;)

Bruizer
Jan 4, 2008, 11:00 PM
Prototype vs. standard that could be implemented.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/15/dvd-forum-approves-51gb-triple-layer-hd-dvd-spec/

edit: not commenting on who will win, only availability TODAY of each disk

available TODAY? 30GB HD-DVD and 50GB BD.

aspro
Jan 4, 2008, 11:00 PM
Golly, it shore seems like putting all the like colors together would have made that chart a bit easier to read, doncha think?

Sure it would have, I guess the chart is a repurposed chart of marketshare and noone could be bothered remaking it for the HDDVD/BD comparison

JesterJJZ
Jan 4, 2008, 11:02 PM
I don't care who wins. I just want someone to lose.

zioxide
Jan 4, 2008, 11:02 PM
You obviously haven't seen Crissy Moran in high definition.

(jk) ;)

You can get HD porn online you know.. :p

Mysticneonglow
Jan 4, 2008, 11:03 PM
OMG this is great :eek:!!

Schmoe0013
Jan 4, 2008, 11:03 PM
except these discs won't play in current units.

This is the same problem Blu-Ray folks will have to contend with when profile 1.1 discs start to surface and the majority of the players will not be able to take advantage of the 1.1 profile.

You cannot update firmware if the hardware lacks the capability in the first place.

RoboCop001
Jan 4, 2008, 11:04 PM
We all know it's not because of the technology.

It's because of the name! Blu-Rayyyyy!

It takes 1/2 a second to say Blu-ray. But it takes a full second to say HD-DVD.

So what has quicker word of mouth? Blu-Rayyyy. What has faster marketing, arbitrarily shorter commercials, and is therefore cheaper to advertise? Blu-Rayyyy!

So you get Blu-Ray to do all the work for you. Now who's bringing home the money? Blu-Ray.

When HD is the standard, what are they going to call the next HD-DVD? HDHD-DVD? Then you'll need 2 seconds to say it. MegaHD? SuperHD? Megatralafisticantiopathicmothragodzillastartreksoup-HD?

No. We need something better. A word that doesn't take time or air to say. A word with superior marketing ability AND the studios to use it. My friends... it is my greatest pleasure to introduce to you... Blu-Ray.

That's what the guy said at the first meeting. How do I know? Because I was there, secretly.

But seriously! It's because of the name. And the better logo. And the colour blue.

Bruizer
Jan 4, 2008, 11:05 PM
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/04/hd-dvd-group-cancels-ces-press-conference-in-wake-of-warner-anno/
Whateva... I prefer HD-DVD, I think it was a more perfected format, new compression technology, and perfect 1.0 profile. Bluray has 3 profiles, discs play on some of them, and uses mpeg2.



Both use the same compression technologies. No difference there.

slffl
Jan 4, 2008, 11:06 PM
That's too bad. My viewing experience has been much more pleasurable with HD-DVD titles.

FreeState
Jan 4, 2008, 11:08 PM
Guys, Guys , Guys,

NONE of this matters... Warner, FOX, Disney? They're not going to decide this issue!

What really matters is what the PORN industry decides.

Not kidding....


Actually the porn companies right now are more likely to go with digital content delivery - over the Internet. Way better for the instant private purchase. (I work in a very closesly related feild)

David G.
Jan 4, 2008, 11:11 PM
When HD is the standard, what are they going to call the next HD-DVD? HDHD-DVD? Then you'll need 2 seconds to say it. MegaHD? SuperHD? Megatralafisticantiopathicmothragodzillastartreksoup-HD?


I know. The name Blu-Ray is so easy to say, it's gonna win.

Stridder44
Jan 4, 2008, 11:13 PM
That's too bad. My viewing experience has been much more pleasurable with HD-DVD titles.


I don't understand how one can "look" better than the other. They both look the same. The big difference is storage capacity.

sushi
Jan 4, 2008, 11:13 PM
Until then, I'm sure I can keep myself from looking at Sylvester Stallone's blackheads and wrinkles in High Def.
That is definitely one big negative about HD movies. Sometimes you see too much detail.

There is no triple layer spec for blu-ray as of yet.

I want to make sure people have accurate facts when debating the war. The point for the HD DVD triple layer disk is to bring to light that you cannot argue one has more storage than the other.
Does storage space really matter?

My guess is movie quality and availability will be more important in which format wins.

But watch, about 10-15 years from now HD-DVD or BR will be a thing of the past as we move onto a new high definition standard.

For right now, my regular DVDs are good enough for me.

I don't care who wins or loses because neither is getting my money. I find it all a waste of money. Those formats won't last very long anyways because the next generation is already being worked out.
Yep, that's how it always is it seems.

I think it will be 2009 before HD surrender. I do wonder who else might announce at CES, cheaper players etc now it looks like its sorted.
CES will definitely be interesting.

I agree that it will be a while before the format war is over. Too many variables right now.

Yes, because HD Discs are the only way to get porn. :rolleyes: If only they had something called the Internet.

Not that I would know...
Please do some testing and get back with us with all the details! ;)

They hear the fat lady singing...
She maybe warming up, but I don't think she is singing yet.

I know. The name Blu-Ray is so easy to say, it's gonna win.
Good point. Marketing. Marketing. Marketing.

gkarris
Jan 4, 2008, 11:17 PM
Well, now that the word is out, what is Paramount going to do with their TV show releases like Star Trek and Battlestar Galactica?

Who's going to invest in TV show seasons on HD DVD with the recent developments?

Norco
Jan 4, 2008, 11:18 PM
Today I was told using the PS3 for watching movies on it will wear it out soon.:confused:

Not like it matters, thats the only thing the PS3 is good for anyways; if you wanted to play video games, you would have bought a 360.

nostaws
Jan 4, 2008, 11:19 PM
Digital downloads and streaming media are going into hyperdrive with Microsoft, Apple, Netflix, Amazon, TiVo, and others prepping in their corners. XBox 360 DVR, Apple TV with dual cable cards, TiVo series 4, Unbox Unlimited... Blu-what? HD DV-who?

Streaming media and downloaded video may be the future, but it has a way to go. Broadband penetration still isn't great in the USA.

Also, not even Apple is offering downloaded video at the quality that can be had on a blu-ray/DVD/HDDVD disk. I (nor most of the people I know) are crazy nuts about the quality of audio, but when it comes to video/home theatres etc. there are a lot of us out there who are anal about video/sound quality.

I would imagine that the Blu-Ray lifespan (assuming it wins) will be close to that of DVDs.

Eidorian
Jan 4, 2008, 11:19 PM
Well, now that the word is out, what is Paramount going to do with their TV show releases like Star Trek and Battlestar Galactica?

Who's going to invest in TV show seasons on HD DVD with the recent developments?A true fan would know that Universal has Battlestar. ;)

I'm not buying another Star Trek box set until this is sorted out. I'm looking at you wall of DVD's. Not that I need all those episodes or to even watch them again.

RoboCop001
Jan 4, 2008, 11:19 PM
How many of us here really care about HD?

Personally, I think it's completely overrated. Sure, a crisper image. But to me, seeing a little more detail when The Thing rips out of the guy's stomach and attaches awkwardly to the ceiling, or when the dog rips up into a dog-blob and starts eating the other dogs doesn't really sell it for me.

:)

But the name Blu-Ray is just so much better :D!!

Do they make widescreen SD-TVs? I want to support regular DVD! lol

KindredMAC
Jan 4, 2008, 11:22 PM
I agree with those that said that the porn industry has no bearing anymore over which format is going to win out due to the fact that you can get as much porn as you want for free on the net.

Why would I subject myself to going into a dirty old porn shop and risk someone I know bumping into me as I'm walking out the door? Plus, do we REALLY need porn in HD? I mean come on, not literally, when the porn industry picked VHS over Beta there was no precursor as to how to view pornos on your TV in your home. With DVDs, internet, iPods and such today, an HD format doesn't amount to a hill 'o beans.

And back on the REAL topic: BD just always made more sense than HD-DVD from the beginning. Why would you pigeon hole yourself into a format that had LESS capacity than your competition????? BDs and DL-BDs can hold so much more info than the HD-DVD's that it makes it a clear cut winner in my book.

Romanesq
Jan 4, 2008, 11:24 PM
Poor suckers that invested in HD-DVD.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u92/donkeyrokman/laughing7iw8jx.gif

Hey, I resemble that remark!
Anyway, I bought HD-DVD the previous summer. I've watched all the hype and format war and misinformation since. HD-DVD offers lots of features, easier production (people talk about triple layer BR but they do not talk about its production problems) and really the coolest thing is that I've been able to upgrade my Toshiba player's OS via the internet.

In addition, there are features available also via downloads. That's been really cool and promising for the format. The SD DVDs also looked great on my player. Just beat the performance of my Panny S97.

Now we will get BR with its limitations and lack of incentive. But in the end, it too will be trumped by internet HD solutions. But that's still a little way off I imagine due to the bandwidth needed for HD.

HD-DVD sure has looked great on a 106" screen via the JVC RS-1.

Oh well.

jaw04005
Jan 4, 2008, 11:28 PM
It looks like the HD DVD camp has completely CANCELLED their CES press conference. CES is the only major consumer electronics show during the year.

Needless to say, doesn't look good for HD DVD.

"A rep for the group told us this evening that the press conference will not be rescheduled, but that the group will still have a presence at the show from its booth on the convention floor."

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/CES_2008/HD_DVD_Promo_Group_Cancels_CES_Press_Conference/1331

Romanesq
Jan 4, 2008, 11:30 PM
Both use the same compression technologies. No difference there.

Lots of the BR titles were mpegs and had lots of bad titles with artifacts.
HD-DVD was using VC1 and producing consistently great results.
BR I think has moved now to the microsoft format of the VC1 for better consistency in the production.

BobVB
Jan 4, 2008, 11:31 PM
Seriously? This argument again? What format the porn industry chooses (and there is porn on BOTH formats) decides nothing when you have INFINITE amounts of streaming pornography available on the net. So let's lay this one to rest shall we?

And in truth who wants to see porn in HD? Porn is all about fantasy and most porn actors and actresses take lots of make up to keep that fantasy potential 'up' in mere 480 lines per screen. The porn purveyor neither needs or necessarily wants HD view of their imperfections.

Its just not that important which way the porn industry goes in this particular war.

Romanesq
Jan 4, 2008, 11:32 PM
I don't understand how one can "look" better than the other. They both look the same. The big difference is storage capacity.

But make it a Hersheys variety. That's not the way it's been.

Jade Cambell
Jan 4, 2008, 11:34 PM
I always knew Blu-Ray would win. I'm thrilled to see this happen.

I've got a computer setup that will satisfy my needs for at least another couple years, but I look forward to purchasing a Blu-Ray equipped mac the next time I upgrade.

For now, the difference between DVD and Blu-Ray on a 23" ACD is only evident when you put picture and picture side by side. Once you're in a film, it doesn't matter.

Cooknn
Jan 4, 2008, 11:37 PM
Not like it matters, thats the only thing the PS3 is good for anyways; if you wanted to play video games, you would have bought a 360.That may have been true a year ago, but not today. Bitter are we?

DMann
Jan 4, 2008, 11:39 PM
Warner has gone totally BluRay.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/22507036/site/14081545

There is no way HD-DVD can survive now, with only 2 major studios on board (Paramount and Universal). It will be interesting to see if this makes Universal go neutral, but I guess that depends on what kind of deal they have with the HD-DVD camp. Paramount are of course stuck with HD-DVD for the next year or so after signing their exclusive deal back in the summer.

I am sure Sony had something to do with this, but then it does make sense for WB as 300 on BluRay far outsold the HD-DVD version, even though the HD-DVD version had more extras.

Sony's revenge for the BETAMAX debacle......

Romanesq
Jan 4, 2008, 11:39 PM
I always knew Blu-Ray would win. I'm thrilled to see this happen.

I've got a computer setup that will satisfy my needs for at least another couple years, but I look forward to purchasing a Blu-Ray equipped mac the next time I upgrade.

For now, the difference between DVD and Blu-Ray on a 23" ACD is only evident when you put picture and picture side by side. Once you're in a film, it doesn't matter.

The quality of these HD formats is evident when you get to a decent size screen. That's not going to happen based on the limitations of the human eye at 23" and in fact the bigger the better. Distance is another factor but I don't agree with folks on that entirely based on experience.

Of course I'm seeing this from the other side of the spectrum at 106" but at 42" or better, you really can appreciate HD. Hockey and movies done in HD formats especially.

aristotle
Jan 4, 2008, 11:41 PM
Lots of the BR titles were mpegs and had lots of bad titles with artifacts.
HD-DVD was using VC1 and producing consistently great results.
BR I think has moved now to the microsoft format of the VC1 for better consistency in the production.
The Blu-ray studios have been choosing AVC often lately but have used VC-1 and even MPEG-2 when it made sense for the source material. In some cases VC-1 or AVC would have looked worse because of artifacts introduced by the compression algorithms, sometimes AVC was best while VC-1 was chosen at other times. The Condemned is an example of when Lionsgate chose VC-1 at a higher bit rate than HD DVD was capable of in order to produce the best picture on Blu-ray.

Buran
Jan 4, 2008, 11:42 PM
I'm not buying any kind of hi-def DVD player until everyone is either using the same format or dual-standard players come out for $500 or less.

Do all blu-ray disks have subtitles that work over HDMI? Someone out there must know.

aristotle
Jan 4, 2008, 11:45 PM
I'm not buying any kind of hi-def DVD player until everyone is either using the same format or dual-standard players come out for $500 or less.

Do all blu-ray disks have subtitles that work over HDMI? Someone out there must know.
Where are you getting this false information from? Subtitles work regardless the connection and all blu-rays players including the Ps3 support up to 1080p via HDMI or 1080i via component.

aristotle
Jan 4, 2008, 11:47 PM
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117978461.html?categoryid=1009&cs=1


Warner sister company New Line confirmed it will shift allegiance to Blu-ray only as well.

running
Jan 4, 2008, 11:47 PM
I feel I will be the only one who didn't just got super-excited-oh-my-god-oh-my-god here, but well, I hate blu-ray.

because of one thing - regions. DVD has this stupid regions and it is making me mad. Blu-Ray has 3 regions, which is better than six (DVD), but HD-DVD has none. Nothing. No regions at all. Simple.

and last thing I don't get is why you all celebrate Blu-Ray is the winner (I guess the war is nearly over). Is it because Microsoft supported HD-DVD? so what? It doesn't have these stupid regions and that's what I care most.

Nermal
Jan 4, 2008, 11:49 PM
Where are you getting this false information from?

Err, what false information? He asked a question.

Stridder44
Jan 4, 2008, 11:49 PM
Not like it matters, thats the only thing the PS3 is good for anyways; if you wanted to play video games, you would have bought a 360.

Well isn't that the biggest ball of FUD ever. And no, playing too many BD movies on your PS3 will "wear it out" is utter B.S.

jaw04005
Jan 4, 2008, 11:49 PM
Lots of the BR titles were mpegs and had lots of bad titles with artifacts.

There is nothing inherently wrong with MPEG-2 encoding. Where space is not a concern, MPEG-2 can produce the same quality image as VC-1 or AVC (MPEG-4). This a myth that has been regurgitated over and over again by people who don't understand video compression technology.

The reason early Blu-ray discs had poor picture quality was because studios were distributing MPEG-2 encoded films on a 25GB BD. At that time, 50GB BD pressing was not readily available.

Now that 50GB BD is available, encoding possibilities are virtually limitless. AVC and VC-1 encodes enjoy a better quality/size ratio. However, MPEG-2 is far from dead and will continue to be used in applications where the quality to size ratio doesn't matter.

HD-DVD was using VC1 and producing consistently great results.

That's purely speculative. You would have to compare title to title, and since the "purple" studios only encode films once (usually in VC-1), we will never be able to accurately compare a 50GB MPEG-2, AVC or VC-1 studio encode to a 30GB MPEG-2, AVC or VC-1 studio encode of the same film.

BR I think has moved now to the microsoft format of the VC1 for better consistency in the production.

That's also inaccurate. The vast majority of Blu-ray disc titles are released in AVC (MPEG-4) encoding as of now.

maxp1
Jan 4, 2008, 11:53 PM
if an Apple TV was released with a blu-ray drive? How cool would that be?

I'm sure there's some reason that won't happen.

bigwig
Jan 4, 2008, 11:57 PM
DVD will win the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray battle, just as CD won the SA-CD/DVD-Audio battle.
One big difference is that the DVD manufacturers are actually marketing high-def video. I never saw any serious attempt to market SACD or DVDA. I only know about them because I'm an audiophile, most stores never carried them and those that did didn't have marketing stands for them. The video content owners actually want you to view high-def video, while the RIAA consistently opposed high-def audio. It is no surprise, then, that SACD/DVDA died with a whimper.

jaw04005
Jan 5, 2008, 12:00 AM
Blu-Ray has 3 regions, which is better than six (DVD), but HD-DVD has none. Nothing. No regions at all. Simple.

The DVD Forum (who controls the HD DVD spec) approved region coding capabilities for HD DVD in 2006. So far, no one in the HD DVD camp is using it. But the notion that HD DVD "is" exactly region free is a joke.

http://www.dvdforum.org/34scmtg-resolution.htm , Item #6

Blu-ray and HD DVD both contain region coding capabilities. But it's up to the individual studios to decide whether or not to implement it.

The only reason HD DVD's region coding capabilities have not been implemented is because the particular film studios that WANT region coding are on the Blu-ray side.

Buran
Jan 5, 2008, 12:04 AM
Where are you getting this false information from? Subtitles work regardless the connection and all blu-rays players including the Ps3 support up to 1080p via HDMI or 1080i via component.

Not true when you consider closed captions, which can't be transmitted over HDMI. Therefore, the concern that there be a replacement that actually works over HDMI is very valid.

What I want to know is, is there an alternate format used on blu-ray/HD disks now and is it universally implemented? Higher-def DVD without any kind of subtitle is useless to me and thousands of others who can't hear.

megfilmworks
Jan 5, 2008, 12:05 AM
Does anyone care that Blu-Ray has the most robust DRM scheme of the two?
No wonder it won over studio heads.
Surprising that this site would be so excited about better protection against copying.

bigwig
Jan 5, 2008, 12:06 AM
The battle is over an arid wasteland called physical media.
I own both but I would suggest that if you are not in the biz then pass on both as they will wither into a boutique sliver of market share.
I buy physical media as my backup, one which is scratch resistant, immune to magnetic fields, fairly robust in a wide temperature range, compact, easily stored offsite, and much cheaper than a second set of hard disks (considering the likely difference, if any, between the download price and physical media price).

The real action is on my media server. If the studios can restrain themselves on the DRM front so that I can store Blu-Ray/HD-DVD movies on disk just like I can DVD I'll be very happy.

mlenger
Jan 5, 2008, 12:07 AM
No. That would have also decided it. An earlier statement by Microsoft pointed to their internal position that they would be inclined to make a Blu-Ray external drive available as well, if they feel there is enough consumer interest. The statement was quickly retracted and re-positioned... yet there it sits, like an dark after-image on a window. Microsoft wants nothing less, than to focus primarily on digital downloads and pumping revenue acquired by it through that "float-system", where they get to hold ungodly sums of money from customers who will NEVER be able to get out the full value of what they've purchased in blocks. The physical format war is only a minor distraction for them that they may talk a good game on, but for which they have little long-term concern over.

~ CB

Astute analysis - right you are

Romanesq
Jan 5, 2008, 12:07 AM
There is nothing inherently wrong with MPEG-2 encoding. Where space is not a concern, MPEG-2 can produce the same quality image as VC-1 or AVC (MPEG-4). This a myth that has been regurgitated over and over again by people who don't understand video compression technology.

The reason early Blu-ray discs had poor picture quality was because studios were distributing MPEG-2 encoded films on a 25GB BD. At that time, 50GB BD pressing was not readily available.

Now that 50GB BD is available, encoding possibilities are virtually limitless. AVC and VC-1 encodes enjoy a better quality/size ratio. However, MPEG-2 is far from dead and will continue to be used in applications where the quality to size ratio doesn't matter.



That's purely speculative. You would have to compare title to title, and since the "purple" studios only encode films once (usually in VC-1), we will never be able to accurately compare a 50GB MPEG-2, AVC or VC-1 studio encode to a 30GB MPEG-2, AVC or VC-1 studio encode of the same film.



That's also inaccurate. The vast majority of Blu-ray disc titles are released in AVC (MPEG-4) encoding as of now.

You are right about MPEG-4 as I don't know which BR titles are consistently using now. No matter how you massage it, MPEG-2, yuch.

But I really will miss the download options on updating the HD-DVD OS and the download extras.

SevenInchScrew
Jan 5, 2008, 12:08 AM
Good, get this thing over with. I want one of them to "WIN", if you can call it that, so we can just move on past it.

Years ago, no one thought we would be getting a huge amount of our music from downloads. Especially with how much "BETTER" of an experience you got from DVD-A and SACD. People thought for sure one of those would be the eventual successor to CD. But then, broadband became a very viable option to many people, and music suddenly became something you could easilly purchase with a single click. Sure, DVD-A and SACD have better technology and do sound great. But, for many people, the CDs they already own or the music they can download from iTunes or Amazon or whatnot is just fine. Not the best, but its good enough.

The same thing is inevitable with these HD disc formats as well. Yes, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD offer much more than standard DVD. But, your average consumer is fine with DVD. Especially since we've invested so much $$$ in them over the last 10 years or so. No one would have thought 5 years ago that we would be downloading HD movies with ease, yet I've done it at least a dozen times on my 360, and its a piece of cake. Sure, they aren't 1080p, and all that. But, on my set, they look great. Broadband is getting faster and cheaper, and hard drives are getting bigger and cheaper as well. It only makes sense to just bypass the physical disc and just send people the bits.

So, good for Warner to step up, and make a decision. Because they are right. All this confusion wasn't helping anyone. Now, just get it out of your system, and get these HD movies on a server somewhere for me to purchase and DL. My Drobo is hungry for 1s and 0s.

megfilmworks
Jan 5, 2008, 12:09 AM
Not true when you consider closed captions, which can't be transmitted over HDMI. Therefore, the concern that there be a replacement that actually works over HDMI is very valid.

Neither formats use closed captioning. They use subtitles, and they work well in both formats over HDMI; it is located in the menu under subtitles usually referred to as English for the hard of hearing.

bigwig
Jan 5, 2008, 12:11 AM
Lots of the BR titles were mpegs and had lots of bad titles with artifacts.
HD-DVD was using VC1 and producing consistently great results.
BR I think has moved now to the microsoft format of the VC1 for better consistency in the production.
New titles ignore VC1 entirely in favor of the much better AVC. Is there a list of MPEG-2 Blu-Ray titles anyway (so I can avoid them)?

megfilmworks
Jan 5, 2008, 12:11 AM
I buy physical media as my backup, one which is scratch resistant, immune to magnetic fields, fairly robust in a wide temperature range, compact, easily stored offsite, and much cheaper than a second set of hard disks (considering the likely difference, if any, between the download price and physical media price).
If you are relying on dvds, cdroms, hd-dvds or Blu for archiving valuable info, then think again. One scratch and you can have a frisbee.
Blu-ray (due to its increased bit density) is especially prone to this issue of total unrecoverable failure.

aristotle
Jan 5, 2008, 12:12 AM
I feel I will be the only one who didn't just got super-excited-oh-my-god-oh-my-god here, but well, I hate blu-ray.

because of one thing - regions. DVD has this stupid regions and it is making me mad. Blu-Ray has 3 regions, which is better than six (DVD), but HD-DVD has none. Nothing. No regions at all. Simple.

and last thing I don't get is why you all celebrate Blu-Ray is the winner (I guess the war is nearly over). Is it because Microsoft supported HD-DVD? so what? It doesn't have these stupid regions and that's what I care most.
FUD
The lack of regions also prevented some new day and date titles from being released on HD DVD by New Line (Hair Spray) at the same time as their Blu-ray and DVD versions because the movie was still in the theaters in Europe. Most catalogue (read older titles) theater releases from 2006 or earlier have been region free. In fact I picked up Bruce Almighty (Buena Vista in UK), Scary Movie 4 (Buena Vista in UK) and Starship Trooper from the UK via sendit.com and they play fine in my Region A Ps3.

Google is your friend. Here is a sight with a list of confirmed region free or all region Blu-rays:
http://bluray.liesinc.net/

CKtoph
Jan 5, 2008, 12:19 AM
Blu-ray (due to its increased bit density) is especially prone to this issue of total unrecoverable failure.

This was only true when Blu-ray discs were first released. All current Blu-ray discs utilize proprietary hard-coat technology. This, actually, makes Blu-ray less vulnerable to irreparable damage.

aristotle
Jan 5, 2008, 12:20 AM
If you are relying on dvds, cdroms, hd-dvds or Blu for archiving valuable info, then think again. One scratch and you can have a frisbee.
Blu-ray (due to its increased bit density) is especially prone to this issue of total unrecoverable failure.
Blu-ray is protected by a hard protective film.

Romanesq
Jan 5, 2008, 12:20 AM
New titles ignore VC1 entirely in favor of the much better AVC. Is there a list of MPEG-2 Blu-Ray titles anyway (so I can avoid them)?

I'm sure you can find out a list somewhere but as was pointed out, MPEG-2 can be done well. I think you will see on disc reviews the issues on certain movies and people will criticize how bad they look.

But I don't know a comprehensive site showing a list. You can look in the BR section of titles though at AVS.com. Great site for the whole world of this stuff.

Will_reed
Jan 5, 2008, 12:20 AM
New Line is doing a pretty piss poor job being dual format, they may as well just go Blu exclusive.

spotlight07
Jan 5, 2008, 12:20 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/3A109a Safari/419.3)

I never thought HD DVD would catch on due to the name. Too hard to say. Say it five times fast. But I can say Blu-Ray all night long. I got a PS3 recently so I'm happy the war is almost over and the superior format won.

aristotle
Jan 5, 2008, 12:22 AM
Neither formats use closed captioning. They use subtitles, and they work well in both formats over HDMI; it is located in the menu under subtitles usually referred to as English for the hard of hearing.
Some Blu-ray titles come with a descriptive audio option to supplement subtitles.

Mad Mac Maniac
Jan 5, 2008, 12:23 AM
HD-DVD is officially PWNED!!!!!

done foreva!! final blow. done. not a chance. by the end of 08 HD-DVD will be out the window

Nugget
Jan 5, 2008, 12:23 AM
Personally, i bought a hdtv, hd player, and blu-ray player, and am just using netflix. Because I do not have that much invested in the media (the movies), i can just replace the hardware when there is a standard. Until then, Netflix will continue to be my main source of Blu-Ray and HD DVD movies for my viewing.
Yeah, this is my approach too. This is certainly the winning strategy for now. With no substantial investment in media it's easy to treat the "war" at arm's length, but I'm still able to watch movies in HD.

Football1maniac
Jan 5, 2008, 12:29 AM
When I heard the announcement about Battle 678 of the Format War going to Blu-Ray, I chuckled to myself.

After literally a year, I can look over to my PS3 and say to it, "See? Microsoft and its XBOX 360 is scum after all!" After that, I went and searched through the 'ol Playstation 2 drawer and found the AV Output cable, and hooked it up to my Bose Surround Sound. Now I'm set to watch movies on my Samsung HDTV 1080p w/ DLP in it and my PS3 hooked up to it for a couple of years now!:D:apple:

Thanks Warner! (Now when will Bugs Bunny be available in Blu-Ray? Because that's my most desired cartoon on my list) :D :apple:

juanster
Jan 5, 2008, 12:33 AM
I feel I will be the only one who didn't just got super-excited-oh-my-god-oh-my-god here, but well, I hate blu-ray.

because of one thing - regions. DVD has this stupid regions and it is making me mad. Blu-Ray has 3 regions, which is better than six (DVD), but HD-DVD has none. Nothing. No regions at all. Simple.

and last thing I don't get is why you all celebrate Blu-Ray is the winner (I guess the war is nearly over). Is it because Microsoft supported HD-DVD? so what? It doesn't have these stupid regions and that's what I care most.

no i think people just wanted this B.S format war done and over so that we can all make our minds and start using the new technology...

MacNut
Jan 5, 2008, 12:38 AM
Aren't both HD formats still losing to standard DVD's. The majority of people don't even have an HDTV so they don't care about either format. Until HD takes hold across the country this is still really a moot point about who wins.

jpine
Jan 5, 2008, 12:38 AM
I heard awhile back that HD was winning over BluRay because the porn industry sided with HD, similar to what happened with VHS and Beta when the porn industry went with VHS.

That was a determining factor with VHS. However, a colleague of mine mentioned the other day that all his clients who deal with porn addiction get their porn exclusively online.

I don't think online rental will be real popular in "fly-over" land until broadband is more widespread. My mom lives just north of KC in Dearborn. She just got 1.5Mbps DSL. My sister lives 4 miles further away and has to pay for a KC line so as not to get a large phone bill for dial-up.

RichL
Jan 5, 2008, 12:49 AM
Man why are there so many PS3 fans here? I don't want to start a commotion but the 360 is my choice for a lot of reasons. The PS3 is a software developing nightmare anyway. This new years news was upsetting for me but hopefully MS will release a blu-ray player if it does end up being the standard.

I thought HD was better quality? That's what the tests showed to the best of my knowledge. Cheaper too.

-RichL

megfilmworks
Jan 5, 2008, 12:52 AM
This was only true when Blu-ray discs were first released. All current Blu-ray discs utilize proprietary hard-coat technology. This, actually, makes Blu-ray less vulnerable to irreparable damage.

Less vulnerable, but still totally inadequate. I get discs from Netflix all the time that don't run because of scratches.

pscoble
Jan 5, 2008, 12:53 AM
Meh A. It doesn't matter at least it won't soon. B. It took money away from Sony.

I haven't watched a DvD anything in months.

synth3tik
Jan 5, 2008, 12:56 AM
VHS vs. BETA.

Until they can find a common medium and can show me why I should get HD I will stick with my std. dev. Thank you very much.

aristotle
Jan 5, 2008, 01:18 AM
VHS vs. BETA.

Until they can find a common medium and can show me why I should get HD I will stick with my std. dev. Thank you very much.
What are you trying to say? Except for Toshiba, all of the CE's support Blu-ray either exclusively or non-exclusively and all studios except Universal and Paramount/Dreamworks support Blu-ray exclusively.

We already have one format and that is Blu-ray.

MacNut
Jan 5, 2008, 01:20 AM
Nothing is really decided until the sales numbers are in. Right now both are losing to sd-dvd.

aristotle
Jan 5, 2008, 01:20 AM
Less vulnerable, but still totally inadequate. I get discs from Netflix all the time that don't run because of scratches.
Dude, people on the net have done tests with steel wool on the Blu-ray coating and the discs played fine. HD DVD does "not" have the coating and is just as vulnerable as DVD to scratches while every blu-ray disc has the coating. Are we on the same page now?

aristotle
Jan 5, 2008, 01:22 AM
Nothing is really decided until the sales numbers are in. Right now both are losing to sd dvd.
What does that have to do with anything? Of course DVD is still selling more just in the same way as VHS was selling more that DVD was at some point. What is your point exactly? Now that the HD media format is over, Blu-ray can take on DVD next just as DVD had to overcome VHS.

I've heard the same rhetoric from HD DVD fanboys over the past few months. Are you sure that you are not an HD DVD supporter?

MacNut
Jan 5, 2008, 01:24 AM
What does that have to do with anything? Of course DVD is still selling more just in the same way as VHS was selling more that DVD was at some point. What is your point exactly? Now that the HD media format is over, Blu-ray can take on DVD next.

I've heard the same rhetoric from HD DVD fanboys over the past few months. Are you sure that you are not an HD DVD supporter?I don't support either, I don't care either way. I would rather both coexist. We need lower prices, they both would keep prices low. Having only 1 means prices will go up. I want backwards compatibility, Let me play my DVD's on whatever new system comes out. Im not going to replace my whole library when there is nothing wrong with the disks now. Up-conversion is the way to go IMO.

BWhaler
Jan 5, 2008, 01:30 AM
I am pleased to read this since I have a PS 3 and have been pleased with the blu movies.

Of course, I think Sony is a bunch of dirt merchants, so I have no love for them. But, Apple is on this team, so I think it's a good bet for me. Plus, Microsoft picking HD-DVD was the final straw.

Sucks to be Toshiba. And once again, Universal is on the wrong team.

bommai
Jan 5, 2008, 01:30 AM
Today I was told using the PS3 for watching movies on it will wear it out soon.:confused:

That's not true. Don't panic. It is just a normal BD drive. They all have the same lifespan.

iEdd
Jan 5, 2008, 01:32 AM
I don't support either, I don't care either way. I would rather both coexist. We need lower prices, they both would keep prices low. Having only 1 means prices will go up. I want backwards compatibility, Let me play my DVD's on whatever new system comes out. Im not going to replace my whole library when there is nothing wrong with the disks now. Up-conversion is the way to go IMO.

Having only one increases the amount sold as there is no hesitation due to worry of buying a soon to be obsolete format. This, as well as more movies on blu-ray increases their production, which will in turn bring prices down over time. Remember that different blu-ray dvds will sell at different prices to compete with each other as well, not just formats.

MacNut
Jan 5, 2008, 01:32 AM
What's so wrong with Apple supporting both formats?

A cheap duel boot player would solve that problem as well. Both formats can survive and consumers can decide for themselves.

CKtoph
Jan 5, 2008, 01:35 AM
The impression that I've gained is that the majority of the public that would be in the market for an HD-DVD or Blu-ray player were waiting for the format war to end before making the investment to purchase. Once consumer confidence has been directed towards the format which will bring the majority of the high definition content to the masses, we should see a dramatic increase in sales.

I'm not entirely sure how there can still be a discussion for the side of HD-DVD at this point. Sure, there is the possibility that the HD-DVD player manufacturers will make attempts at whatever offers and sales that they can muster, but in the end, the player itself means nothing unless you have enjoyable format to watch on said player. Why would anyone in their right mind spend even $1 to purchase a rather large bookend?

In all honesty, I was hoping the format war would last at least another few months. With Blu-ray taking such a huge advantage over HD-DVD, Blu-ray player manufacturers have even less reason to continue to drop the prices at the rate they have been.

damnyooneek
Jan 5, 2008, 01:36 AM
If you are relying on dvds, cdroms, hd-dvds or Blu for archiving valuable info, then think again. One scratch and you can have a frisbee.
Blu-ray (due to its increased bit density) is especially prone to this issue of total unrecoverable failure.

blu ray disc are harder to scratch than dvds.

bommai
Jan 5, 2008, 01:37 AM
I don't support either, I don't care either way. I would rather both coexist. We need lower prices, they both would keep prices low. Having only 1 means prices will go up. I want backwards compatibility, Let me play my DVD's on whatever new system comes out. Im not going to replace my whole library when there is nothing wrong with the disks now. Up-conversion is the way to go IMO.

DVD prices came down without another format fighting it. BD will come down in price too. I know several friends that would not buy into either HD-DVD or BD unless one of them won. This will make that happen. That is precisely what Warner said in their statement. Both BD and HD-DVD players are equally backward compatible with SD-DVDs. So, with healthy competition among various BD manufacturers, and bigger market, I am sure prices will come down in a sustainable fashion.

damnyooneek
Jan 5, 2008, 01:40 AM
Aren't both HD formats still losing to standard DVD's. The majority of people don't even have an HDTV so they don't care about either format. Until HD takes hold across the country this is still really a moot point about who wins.

that will all change during the 2008 holiday season. because the change to digital tv in early 2009 many people will start considering hdtvs and in turn that will lead to hd disc players sold.

MacNut
Jan 5, 2008, 01:40 AM
I still think both formats will lose, most people see no reason to upgrade. They don't care.

DVD up converters sold better then both blu ray an hd dvd. I think people would rather keep their current library then to re buy everything.

zioxide
Jan 5, 2008, 01:41 AM
Both formats can survive and consumers can decide for themselves.

They have. Blu-ray has been consistently outselling HD-DVD of the same titles. 300 BR outsold HD-DVD like 3-1 or something, and that's why Warner is now BR exclusive.

Up-conversion is the way to go IMO.

Up-conversion is pretty much a marketing gimmick to get you to spend more on a dvd player. You can't replace resolution and picture information that's not already there.

damnyooneek
Jan 5, 2008, 01:43 AM
I still think both formats will lose, most people see no reason to upgrade. They don't care.

you've obviously don't have a 1080p tv and a blu ray player ;)

iris_failsafe
Jan 5, 2008, 01:44 AM
I heard awhile back that HD was winning over BluRay because the porn industry sided with HD, similar to what happened with VHS and Beta when the porn industry went with VHS.

The thing s that porn is not a decisive factor here, why? because porn strives on the internet. Having Hd DVD porn will not have a market because getting it from the internet is much much easier and private.

MacNut
Jan 5, 2008, 01:44 AM
you've obviously don't a 1080p tv and a blu ray player ;)Don't have HD yet, an even when I get it I won't get a higher format dvd for a while after.

aristotle
Jan 5, 2008, 01:47 AM
I still think both formats will lose, most people see no reason to upgrade. They don't care.

DVD up converters sold better then both blu ray an hd dvd. I think people would rather keep their current library then to re buy everything.
That proves it. You are reading from the standard HD DVD fanboy handbook. When HD DVD losing, resort to the SD DVD tactic. I've read these exact same comments before on other boards. Do you guys have meetings to plan strategy?

damnyooneek
Jan 5, 2008, 01:48 AM
Don't have HD yet, an even when I get it I won't get a higher format dvd for a while after.

once you get an hdtv and you'll begin to appreciate the quality of the better format. dvd to hd movies are like watching vhs to dvds

aristotle
Jan 5, 2008, 01:49 AM
I don't support either, I don't care either way. I would rather both coexist. We need lower prices, they both would keep prices low. Having only 1 means prices will go up. I want backwards compatibility, Let me play my DVD's on whatever new system comes out. Im not going to replace my whole library when there is nothing wrong with the disks now. Up-conversion is the way to go IMO.
All Blu-ray players will playback and upconvert any DVD. Where are you getting your false information from? The HD DVD promotional group?

MacNut
Jan 5, 2008, 01:50 AM
That proves it. You are reading from the standard HD DVD fanboy handbook. When HD DVD losing, resort to the SD DVD tactic. I've read these exact same comments before on other boards. Do you guys have meetings to plan strategy?Did you read before when I said I don't care either way. Personally I don't think there should of been a war to begin with.

Nermal
Jan 5, 2008, 01:51 AM
What's so wrong with Apple supporting both formats?

Apple announced way back in 2005 (AFTER joining the BR association) that both formats will be supported. Hopefully at Macworld they will finally fulfil that promise.

aristotle
Jan 5, 2008, 01:52 AM
Did you read before when I said I don't care either way. Personally I don't think there should of been a war to begin with.
You have been consistently spreading false information in this thread. Both the HD-A# series of HD DVD players and all Blu-ray players including the PS3 will upconvert Standard Definition DVDs.

Had Toshiba not rejected Sony and Panasonic's overture outside of the DVD Forum to support Blu-ray long before HD DVD was even a spec, the war would have never happened.

MacNut
Jan 5, 2008, 01:52 AM
Apple announced way back in 2005 (AFTER joining the BR association) that both formats will be supported.So then does any of this matter then.

sushi
Jan 5, 2008, 01:54 AM
Aren't both HD formats still losing to standard DVD's.
Good question.

Right now both are losing to sd-dvd.
Do you have any data on this.

What's so wrong with Apple supporting both formats?

A cheap duel boot player would solve that problem as well. Both formats can survive and consumers can decide for themselves.
That would be nice.

you've obviously don't have a 1080p tv and a blu ray player ;)
Nope, and I don't plan on getting any until much later. :)

mcarnes
Jan 5, 2008, 01:55 AM
Don't have HD yet, an even when I get it I won't get a higher format dvd for a while after.

:rolleyes: Poor people.

(jk)

MacNut
Jan 5, 2008, 01:55 AM
Good question.


Do you have any data on this.


That would be nice.


Nope, and I don't plan on getting any until much later. :)Xmas sales showed that standard def was beating both HD's hands down.Including video game consoles, 2.7 million Blu-ray Disc players have sold vs. 750,000 HD DVD players in North America as of Dec. 1, say associations for both standards. Toshiba's HD DVD launched in the U.S. in April 2006, and Sony's Blu-ray Disc that June. December figures aren't yet available, though observers say sales appear to be rising for both formats.

"A lot of people have been looking at hardware sales as a bellwether, but we really should be looking at content sales not hardware sales," said Andy Parsons, senior vice president of product planning at Pioneer Home Entertainment Group and chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association Promotions Committee.

Blu-ray has sold over 4 million software titles in the U.S. as of Dec. 1. That compares with 2.6 million software titles for HD DVD, he says.

Blu-ray Disc movies have been outselling HD DVD movies by a two-to-one margin this year, Parsons says.

The biggest drawback to either HD DVD or Blu-ray Disc is that content available on one format isn't always available in the other. Discs from the high-def formats won't play on the other's machines, except in pricey dual-format players.

Standard Def Does The Job

Another factor holding back adoption of a high-def standard is the consumer's love of DVDs. Many are satisfied with the quality of standard-definition digital discs, especially when played in newer DVD players that can "upconvert" the video quality to near high-def.

"When we look at competitors, it's really not Blu-ray. It's DVD," said Ken Graffeo, executive vice president of HD strategic marketing for Universal Studios Home Entertainment and co-president of the HD DVD Promotional Group. "People are very happy with their DVDs."http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/newstex/IBD-0001-21882911.htm

LethalWolfe
Jan 5, 2008, 01:56 AM
you've obviously don't have a 1080p tv and a blu ray player ;)
I guess you do and need to feel good about the money you spent on it. ;)


Lethal

bmb012
Jan 5, 2008, 01:59 AM
I dunno, I own a ps3 and a 360 with the HD DVD player, and I haven't watched a single Blu Ray movie that looks as good as the HD DVD movies I have. This is on a 720p television, but 1080i looks the best on it, since then it shows native at 1300whatever by 800whatever pixels.

HD DVD just looks better to me, period. Is it the h.264? Blu Ray does mpeg2 like DVD, right? Can't Blu Ray do h.264 also? Are any of them using it yet?

ocifersven
Jan 5, 2008, 01:59 AM
Guys, Guys , Guys,

NONE of this matters... Warner, FOX, Disney? They're not going to decide this issue!

What really matters is what the PORN industry decides.

Not kidding....

Actually, having many friends in the porn industry, I can personally tell you that my buddies at Vivid Entertainment have chosen both formats, which was interesting to say the least. For a while, Sony wouldn't allow adult titles to be published under Blu-Ray for moral reasons. However, Sony gave in an allowed them to pay up a hefty licensing fee just to publish on a Blu-Ray disc. This is the best part... Vivid cannot do any of their own in house encoding for Blu-Ray. They have to send the final product over to Germany to get it done, as part of the agreement.

While, with HD-DVD, they didn't have to pay the royalty fees. Nor do they have to send anything anywhere to get encoded. Actually, their HD-DVD production is all done in house. So it's cheaper in the long run for Vivid, and for consumers.

Even on that note of the porn industry choosing the next format... you're forgetting the missing contender. Online distribution, my friend. And porn has already chosen it. Who wants to watch HD porn anyway, and see the pimples & razor burn in a ridiculously amazing video quality? Not me... count me out!

Blu-Ray has the cooler name. I'll give it that. "HD-DVD" sounds old and dated. We've heard the term "DVD" thrown around for more than a decade now. It's not as appealing to hear the acronym "HD-DVD" because of that. And the Blu-Ray camp advertises that it can hold up to 50GB (25GB per layer). But what makes that interesting is that the Blu-Ray format is having a hard time accessing that second layer, meaning that there realistically only utilizing 25GB. HD-DVD is having no problems using both of their layers, giving them 30GB total (15GB per layer).

Even better yet, both formats are using the same codec (h.264) with nearly the same compression... which means... similar file sizes in the end!!! So what does it matter that Blu-Ray advertises more space? It's not utilized. It's wasted, unless you're storing data on burned Blu-Ray media.

What I really want to get at is that we don't want Sony to win. We know how expensive Sony is to license anything, based upon past examples. Mini-Disc lost. Beta lost. It was expensive for anyone to license. And you know what happens to expensive media? The price gets passed onto the consumer - that's what. And guess what else Sony is involved in? Oh yeah... they're also a movie studio with competition, such as Warner, Universal, New Line, Disney, etc. It's like Apple endorsing and backing WMV. It's stupid, if you ask me. If Blu-Ray wins, you're going to pay more later, as prices WILL MOST DEFINITELY go up.

So guess how much Sony will charge studios to use Blu-Ray if they win the format war? I'll let you use your wildest imagination...

And, for the record, I work in production. When I chose to go HD at the house, I did my homework testing equipment. HD-DVD looked a hair bit better than Blu-Ray, IMHO. It may have had to do with the converters. But I saw better coloring, and smoother pans in HD-DVD. So, yes, I'm on the HD-DVD camp. It's makes better sense economically, and in quality.

That's my rant.

dubhe
Jan 5, 2008, 02:00 AM
I heard awhile back that HD was winning over BluRay because the porn industry sided with HD, similar to what happened with VHS and Beta when the porn industry went with VHS.

It could be handy for the porn to be HD and everything else BluRay, all the wife would see would be "disc error" :D

Now, where can I get a portable dual format player???

zioxide
Jan 5, 2008, 02:05 AM
Xmas sales showed that standard def was beating both HD's hands down.http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/newstex/IBD-0001-21882911.htm

Great, but that doesn't mean ****.

Go back to when DVD was first being adopted and you'll be able to find articles about VHS still outselling DVD.

Actually, having many friends in the porn industry <snip rest of rant about Sony>

You should tell them that it's 2008 and people get their porn from bittorrent now.

Oh, and Sony isn't the only one who developed blu-ray (they were pretty much the sole developers of betamax)

Scottgfx
Jan 5, 2008, 02:06 AM
Did you read before when I said I don't care either way. Personally I don't think there should of been a war to begin with.

Perhaps you would have been happy with this format. It is SD after all. I'm sure it would have looked great being upconverted to 1080p. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VCD

MacNut
Jan 5, 2008, 02:07 AM
Great, but that doesn't mean ****.

Go back to when DVD was first being adopted and you'll be able to find articles about VHS still outselling DVD.Big difference, You did not need a new TV. Until a person is going to buy a new TV there is no reason to get an HD format player.

Had VCD taken off it would have buried DVD. It was just 10 years ahead of its time. When VCD's came out people were not ready for them. DVD came in at the right time and took a few years to even grab ahold of the market.

zioxide
Jan 5, 2008, 02:13 AM
Big difference, You did not need a new TV. Until a person is going to buy a new TV there is no reason to get an HD format player.

Had VCD taken off it would have buried DVD. It was just 10 years ahead of its time.

Well with the digital transition in 2009, people are either going to have to buy convertor boxes or new televisions, and I'm guessing most of the people with older tvs are going to just buy a new TV rather than having to deal with a converter box.

Also, VCD was crap and never even had a shot because the quality was awful. There's no way you'd be able to convert people from one format to the other when the quality was exactly the same.

I'm sure it would have looked great being upconverted to 1080p. :)

Oh yah. Youtube (same res as vcd) looks great upscaled to 1080p too :D /sarcasm

CBAviator
Jan 5, 2008, 02:14 AM
So kind of a crazy question (but a good one I think)...

Say that Toshiba ends up striking some sort of deal with Blu-Ray. I know that right now the two formats are not compatible. Is this some sort of PHYSICAL incompatibility or it is some sort of firmware incompatibility? Is it possible that if a deal were struck that current HD-DVD players could eventually read Blu-Ray DVDs as well with a simple update?

Scottgfx
Jan 5, 2008, 02:15 AM
Big difference, You did not need a new TV. Until a person is going to buy a new TV there is no reason to get an HD format player.

Had VCD taken off it would have buried DVD. It was just 10 years ahead of its time.

VCD looked like a$$. I was joking about that.

I'm still watching BluRay disks on a 25" Standard Definition Sony Trinitron TV, connected via composite. It still looks better than a regular DVD. To me, it's like looking at a full bandwidth Quadruplex VTR. (Or perhaps a 1" Type-C machine)

MacNut
Jan 5, 2008, 02:15 AM
Well with the digital transition in 2009, people are either going to have to buy convertor boxes or new televisions, and I'm guessing most of the people with older tvs are going to just buy a new TV rather than having to deal with a converter box.

Also, VCD was crap and never even had a shot because the quality was awful. There's no way you'd be able to convert people from one format to the other when the quality was exactly the same.People might not want to pay 2 grand for a nice HDTV they would rather pay the 200 for the converter.

VCD was still a step up from VHS, and that was way before DVD.

bommai
Jan 5, 2008, 02:15 AM
I feel I will be the only one who didn't just got super-excited-oh-my-god-oh-my-god here, but well, I hate blu-ray.

because of one thing - regions. DVD has this stupid regions and it is making me mad. Blu-Ray has 3 regions, which is better than six (DVD), but HD-DVD has none. Nothing. No regions at all. Simple.

Why the ****** I cannot buy Blu-Ray on eBay from USA and then play it in Europe? Or Australia? Who the ****** did invent this ******ry? Yes, most of the blu-ray releases is only for region A. And I am not from North America, Central America, South America, Japan, Taiwan, North Korea, South Korea, Hong Kong, or Southeast Asia.

and last thing I don't get is why you all celebrate Blu-Ray is the winner (I guess the war is nearly over). Is it because Microsoft supported HD-DVD? so what? It doesn't have these stupid regions and that's what I care most.

Region coding is done differently in Bluray compared to DVDs. For Bluray disks, you can have one, two or three regions selected. Most of the movies coming till now are region free. However, the studios want to retain region coding for situation where it is warranted. For example, the movie Hairspray is still playing in theaters in Europe. However, it is released as region A DVD in the US. I have no problems with this.

faustfire
Jan 5, 2008, 02:16 AM
Of course Blu-Ray is going to end up winning. Why choose something with less memory when you can have more? ;)

For the same reason that the superior beta format lost to VHS, because 90% of the population are a bunch of stupid sheep.

zioxide
Jan 5, 2008, 02:18 AM
People might not want to pay 2 grand for a nice HDTV they would rather pay the 200 for the converter.

VCD was still a step up from VHS, and that was way before DVD.

HDTV's aren't 2 grand anymore. You can get a decent one for like 500 bucks. Hell, I got my BRAVIA for $699 from B&H


"Overall picture quality is intended to be comparable to VHS video, though VHS has twice as many scanlines (approximately 480 NTSC and 580 PAL) and therefore double the vertical resolution. Poorly compressed video in VCD tends to be of lower quality than VHS video, but VCD exhibits block artifacts rather than analog noise, which may be preferable." (wikipedia: vcd)

SheriffParker
Jan 5, 2008, 02:18 AM
because 90% of the population are a bunch of stupid sheep.

And you really believe that? You're awfully gullible.

Nermal
Jan 5, 2008, 02:18 AM
Including video game consoles, 2.7 million Blu-ray Disc players have sold vs. 750,000 HD DVD players in North America as of Dec. 1, say associations for both standards.

When you bring other countries into the mix, that's bound to be over a million HD DVD players. That's not a small amount of people to leave "out in the cold" so it'll be interesting to see what happens.

I own an HD DVD player and 17 discs, and I will continue to buy HD DVD movies whenever possible. They're cheaper (I can import HD DVDs from the US for cheaper than buying either format locally) and they will continue to work in my "dead format" player.

My prediction is that Toshiba and MS will talk Universal into getting rid of standard DVDs and replacing all of them with the combo format. I don't know how much change that will make in the long run but it should give the format a little more life.

MacNut
Jan 5, 2008, 02:20 AM
HDTV's aren't 2 grand anymore. You can get a decent one for like 500 bucks. Hell, I got my BRAVIA for $699 from B&H


"Overall picture quality is intended to be comparable to VHS video, though VHS has twice as many scanlines (approximately 480 NTSC and 580 PAL) and therefore double the vertical resolution. Poorly compressed video in VCD tends to be of lower quality than VHS video, but VCD exhibits block artifacts rather than analog noise, which may be preferable." (wikipedia: vcd)You could argue that VCD set the stage for DVD.

If you want a good HDTV you are going to spend more then a 1000.

Why didn't they push the combo format sooner?

Will_reed
Jan 5, 2008, 02:20 AM
For the same reason that the superior beta format lost to VHS, because 90% of the population are a bunch of stupid sheep.

well it seems like the stupid sheep are being herded into the correct pen this time.

mixel
Jan 5, 2008, 02:23 AM
I'm glad about this - good to see the best format win.. I mean that from an archival and "what I'd like to see replacing DVD-R" perspective... As well as a home entertainment one.

Also region coding isnt a huge issue sofar on BD, a lot (certainly all of the BDs I have) don't even have it enabled.

:D I love how there have been a couple of sulky 360 fans in the thread.. "Why are people being pro PS3!!" .. You expect people on a Mac forum to side with Microsoft? When Microsoft are trying to peddle inferior an spec/standard.. AGAIN?

I dunno, I own a ps3 and a 360 with the HD DVD player, and I haven't watched a single Blu Ray movie that looks as good as the HD DVD movies I have. This is on a 720p television, but 1080i looks the best on it, since then it shows native at 1300whatever by 800whatever pixels.

HD DVD just looks better to me, period. Is it the h.264? Blu Ray does mpeg2 like DVD, right? Can't Blu Ray do h.264 also? Are any of them using it yet?

So you actually bought the same movies for both formats? That's the only way you'd have a valid comparison. BD supports the same codecs as HD-DVD, it was only to begin with that it used mpg2, they both use h.264 now.

To all extents and purposes there's no reason for them not to look identical.

Scottgfx
Jan 5, 2008, 02:23 AM
You could argue that VCD set the stage for DVD.

If you want a good HDTV you are going to spend more then a 1000.

Why didn't they push the combo format sooner?

Keep in mind that the first color televisions cost about the same as an automobile back in the 1950's. Things have changed somewhat in the consumer electronics industry in the last 50 years.

MacNut
Jan 5, 2008, 02:26 AM
Keep in mind that the first color televisions cost about the same as an automobile back in the 1950's. Things have changed somewhat in the consumer electronics industry in the last 50 years.As long as the digital switch happens in Feb 09 without being pushed back again, that is when we will see a true winner. When more people make a switch to HD next winter the numbers should change. If they don't move as much then we have more to talk about.

zioxide
Jan 5, 2008, 02:28 AM
My prediction is that Toshiba and MS will talk Universal into getting rid of standard DVDs and replacing all of them with the combo format.

MS isn't going to do anything about HD-DVD. They said before if BR won, they'd come out with a Blu-Ray 360 Add-on. MS is in no way committed to HD-DVD.

I've read some things to suggest that MS picked HD-DVD just to try to make the war more complicated in order to try to push digital downloads.

Scottgfx
Jan 5, 2008, 02:29 AM
I love how there have been a couple of sulky 360 fans in the thread.. "Why are people being pro PS3!!" .. You expect people on a Mac forum to side with Microsoft? When Microsoft are trying to peddle inferior an spec/standard.. AGAIN?

I did read somewhere that Microsoft's software that runs the HD-DVD menu systems was quite good. I've not see one myself to comment. It sounds like something that would be easy to port to BluRay or vice-versa.

Also; with Microsoft making the HD-DVD drive an "option" for the 360. Perhaps they too were hedging their bets against HD-DVD. Why couldn't they *also* sell a BluRay option for the 360.

Just thinking here..

Scottgfx
Jan 5, 2008, 02:31 AM
They said before if BR won, they'd come out with a Blu-Ray 360 Add-on. MS is in no way committed to HD-DVD.

I've read some things to suggest that MS picked HD-DVD just to try to make the war more complicated in order to try to push digital downloads.

I'd heard the part about the downloads war. I hadn't heard the part about the BluRay add-on. Interesting.

ocifersven
Jan 5, 2008, 02:37 AM
You should tell them that it's 2008 and people get their porn from bittorrent now.

Oh, and Sony isn't the only one who developed blu-ray (they were pretty much the sole developers of betamax)

Yeah, that's awesome and all. But it's still mostly Sony's baby, over anyone else's. There were others in the kitchen when Blu-Ray was being developed. But Sony was the head chef.

As for porn distribution, bittorrent is the obvious choice for anyone in any media business to roll with, as it's proven to be the profit bomb! Not really. Bittorrent is still being fought, as it's being abused by the end user every day. By the end of the day, torrenting copywritten media is still theft, whether you see it that way or not. Taking something for free that's meant to be sold, without valid authorization, is stealing in any country.

Sorry. They call me Captain Obvious around here.

heatwade3
Jan 5, 2008, 02:38 AM
I don't care who wins or loses because neither is getting my money. I find it all a waste of money. Those formats won't last very long anyways because the next generation is already being worked out. I'm more excited about Apple's rumored download service.

No disrespect but my guess is you dont own any HD television in your home. Because if you had one , you would not had this quote as your reply.

A good upscaling dvd player a few months ago is around $150.

A PS3 is $399. Divx, CD, DVD ( it upscales like a $2000 dollar Onkyo THX Dvd player that I bought and later returned after trying this) , Blu-ray player. It plays video games ( in High -def , believe that? 1080p). You can even play online for free against people around the world ( keyword FREE ).
You can surf the web too. You can upgrade the hard drive up to whatever size Gb (2.5 Sat hard drive) is available to store pictures , music, ( and I think movies too..haven't really researched about it yet ) Connect with your network to be able to sync with your computer files like pictures and mp3's. I also heard of the DVR coming soon. And if you have a PSP... ok ok , I know..I'll stop already. But you get my point though?
It's a pretty decent High def player to compliment any HDTV's and enjoy watching movies with with your family ( the reason why I got it in the first place ) for the price. And the most important thing.... We are enjoying this wonderful technology called HD ..NOW.

Sorry I got carried away.

Vanilla
Jan 5, 2008, 02:39 AM
I can't really get excited about this news.

Right now a decent DVD player with a nice upscaler connected to a good Flat screen produces great results anyway, why go to the expense of buying a new box and replacement content?

Of more interest to me is the expansion of HD content on Sky over here in the UK and a move towards streaming/rental downloading in general, plus a hoped for foray by Apple into home networking/home media server (a pumped up mac mini or Apple TV maybe?).

Digital is the future, getting worked up about shiny discs just seems so 'old'.
Vanilla

mixel
Jan 5, 2008, 02:43 AM
BD *and* HD-DVD addons for the 360 are a non-starter.. Few people are going to want a BD addon for the 360 and they only bought HD-DVD addons for it to save money on a standalone player.. The 360 is far too loud to use as a good home cinema setup however nice the menus and 360 interface are. :/

By the time BD addon for the 360 could be an option stand-alone BD players will be cheap enough for MS not to bother.

Maybe they'll make a 360.5 with integrated HD-DVD - while it's an optional extra they can't use it for games. If the floor collapses under HD-DVD I really wonder what MS will do next.

Analog Kid
Jan 5, 2008, 03:01 AM
As far as I can tell, the studios have a major incentive to settle on a single format, and despite the cries of "the war is over" I don't think we're there yet. As long as this continues, people are going to stick with standard def, and as long a people stick with standard def the torrents are going to be a tempting option.

HD is what will buy the studios some refuge from illegal downloads. Right now, there's little penalty for downloading a movie-- it's not unreasonable to download a few GB. Downloading and storing 50GB is a chore and people will be more likely to buy the physical media. As long as they bicker back and forth over trivially different formats, they're bleeding revenue.

Question to the people who follow this most closely: is there any risk that Europe goes one way and the US goes a different way? NTSC v PAL, region encoding and the rest have been a royal pain-- I'd hope we finally just agree that the differences aren't worth the hassle...
What are you trying to say? Except for Toshiba, all of the CE's support Blu-ray either exclusively or non-exclusively and all studios except Universal and Paramount/Dreamworks support Blu-ray exclusively.

We already have one format and that is Blu-ray.
Looks to me like 30-40% of available titles are HD-DVD. Doesn't sound like one format to me...
They have. Blu-ray has been consistently outselling HD-DVD of the same titles. 300 BR outsold HD-DVD like 3-1 or something, and that's why Warner is now BR exclusive.

Up-conversion is pretty much a marketing gimmick to get you to spend more on a dvd player. You can't replace resolution and picture information that's not already there.
Agreed on the second point, but using 300 as a reference seems a bit suspect to me... 300 strikes me as the kind of movie that every single PS3 owner would buy-- it just fits the demographic.
So kind of a crazy question (but a good one I think)...

Say that Toshiba ends up striking some sort of deal with Blu-Ray. I know that right now the two formats are not compatible. Is this some sort of PHYSICAL incompatibility or it is some sort of firmware incompatibility? Is it possible that if a deal were struck that current HD-DVD players could eventually read Blu-Ray DVDs as well with a simple update?
Not a crazy question. I don't think it would be a simple firmware update, but combo players would become much cheaper. I think the major expense in the dual format players is licensing-- that would fall away once one party or the other capitulated. Both sides would have an interest in minimizing the pain after a victor is declared-- lest the next format war leave people even more hesitant to buy.
I'm glad about this - good to see the best format win.. I mean that from an archival and "what I'd like to see replacing DVD-R" perspective... As well as a home entertainment one.

Also region coding isnt a huge issue sofar on BD, a lot (certainly all of the BDs I have) don't even have it enabled.

So you actually bought the same movies for both formats? That's the only way you'd have a valid comparison. BD supports the same codecs as HD-DVD, it was only to begin with that it used mpg2, they both use h.264 now.

To all extents and purposes there's no reason for them not to look identical.
Latent "features" leave me more wary than active features. If region encoding is possible but not used, that just means that nobody wants to tarnish the format by employing it-- once the format war is over, you can expect this little nuisance to be used widely.

I've seen the "BD/HD-DVD is superior" and the "both formats are essentially the same" arguments given back and forth through the thread, but this is the first post I've seen to use both arguments essentially side by side...

chr1s60
Jan 5, 2008, 03:03 AM
IMO this is great news and will be looked back on as the deal that broke HD-DVD. This makes 4 major movie companies on board for Blu-ray compared to only two for HD-DVD. The current sales are already at about 65-35 in favor of Blu-ray and this decision is going to add at least another 10-15% to the Blu-ray side. The reason this will make a big difference is because of stores like Best Buy and other electronics stores. When a normal customer is looking at HD media and asks what the advantages are or wants to look at the number of movies available on each format, pretty much everything will point to Blu-ray. Lets not forget that Blockbuster is also carrying Blu-ray almost exclusively now and this will also swing buyers towards Blu-ray. At this point something catastrophic would have to happen in order for HD-DVD to stand a chance as the industry favorite and eventual winner. Porn on HD-DVD may add to some sales, but these days porn can be found all over the internet and will not help HD-DVD nearly as much as some think.

Eventually the few remaining exclusive HD-DVD companies will not be able to ignore the numbers. Sure HD-DVD may be cheaper to produce, but when well over 70% of sales are with Blu-ray, the lost profit won't be worth the saved production expense. HD-DVD has put up a nice fight, but like most people knew from the start, Blu-ray is the better platform. Also, the whole dual HD format thing is stupid! All movies should be released on the same format in order to maximize sales. A consumer should not have to buy two different players or a more expensive player that can play dual formats, simply to watch Transformers and Spider-Man in HD.

mixel
Jan 5, 2008, 03:09 AM
Latent "features" leave me more wary than active features. If region encoding is possible but not used, that just means that nobody wants to tarnish the format by employing it-- once the format war is over, you can expect this little nuisance to be used widely.
True, it's in the HD-DVD spec now too, so whichever was to win, it will still be an issue.

Region coding really annoys me, I hope they don't use it excessively - I really liked being in the same DVD region as Japan in the UK.. However little sense it made geographically it was excellent for imports. :D

I've seen the "BD/HD-DVD is superior" and the "both formats are essentially the same" arguments given back and forth through the thread, but this is the first post I've seen to use both arguments essentially side by side...
Well, it's not as simple as people seem to want it to be.. For home cinema, for most movies they are potentially identical now (not really taking in to account extras etc).. Nobody is getting a "better home cinema experience" by choosing one format over the other.. The movie part should be identical.

But as something I want to backup/burn stuff to, and in terms of available hardware (including the PS3) I'm all for BD. :)

Kallikinos
Jan 5, 2008, 03:10 AM
Man why are there so many PS3 fans here? I don't want to start a commotion but the 360 is my choice for a lot of reasons. The PS3 is a software developing nightmare anyway. This new years news was upsetting for me but hopefully MS will release a blu-ray player if it does end up being the standard.

I thought HD was better quality? That's what the tests showed to the best of my knowledge. Cheaper too.

-RichL

I agree, I love my 360 and mainly got it for Halo 3...not because I like Microsoft. I've heard a-lot of negative things about the PS3 (initial pricing totally turned me off for a while) which is why I decided not to go with one.

Regarding the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray thing...I honestly don't give a s*** who wins, just as long as one format wins over the other. The differences between them don't matter to me...especially considering how meager they are.

FireArse
Jan 5, 2008, 03:34 AM
So lets say you buy a Blu-Ray film for the kids. $25? maybe more? I've seen them here in the UK sell for that figure in pounds sterling

Anyway, this movie is a Disney movie for the kids - is it going to last long with their grubby little fingers covered in chocolate, saliva and perhaps other bits & pieces?

A home backup of this movie would be great, with HD-DVD this isn't a problem. Can you do the same with Blu-Ray?

The quality is the same. 1080p at roughly the same bit rates with differing codecs.

I'm still rooting for HD-DVD AND Blu-Ray.

Marx55
Jan 5, 2008, 03:38 AM
The game is over. Blu-ray wins because:

- It has superior technology. Better quality (bitrate, etc), more capacity, more room to grow.

- More studios with it.

- More disks and players sold.

- More consumers choose it.

The amazing thing is HD-DVD did not die two years ago!

Analog Kid
Jan 5, 2008, 03:41 AM
Again, I don't follow this all that closely, and probably won't until one finally wins, but doesn't BD come with a that "gotta call home" DRM scheme? I seem to remember that being what turned me against the format in the first place...

I also remember hearing that no one has used it yet, but I file that under the "latent feature" fear I described above...

But as something I want to backup/burn stuff to, and in terms of available hardware (including the PS3) I'm all for BD. :)
Slightly higher data density, I guess, but I gave up on archiving to optical discs a long time ago-- they just aren't reliable enough.

dAlen
Jan 5, 2008, 04:01 AM
http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news/show/HBO/New_Line/Warner/Warner:_New_Line,_HBO_Not_Covered_By_Blu-ray_Announcement_(UPDATED)/1328

"UPDATE: (3:10am ET, 1/05/08) Variety is reporting that Warner sister company New Line has confirmed that it too plans to shift to Blu-ray exclusivity"

peace

dAlen

mixel
Jan 5, 2008, 04:09 AM
That does sound scary, I'd not heard of the phone home thing, but early BD players weren't net ready anyway. I don't mind their being support for things if they aren't used much and if they work right..

Slightly higher data density, I guess, but I gave up on archiving to optical discs a long time ago-- they just aren't reliable enough.
I've had 3 Hard Disks (IBM and Seagate) die on me (not through misuse, just.. bad luck) and haven't lost any data from scratched CDs/DVDs.. So it's reliable enough for me. I do a full constant Time Machine system backup to HD, but for archival or secondary work disks seem more practical.

I could burn 50 GB of eyeTV recordings to one BD (DivX or h.264) and it should play in my PS3.. (not mission critical data, but i'd rather not fill up my main drives with it) - I don't know how many other people are in a similar position, but it's a big boon for my set up.. :)

BlackSmp
Jan 5, 2008, 04:11 AM
And since when does superior technology wins a standard battle? ;)

There are a lot of examples when superiour technology loses.

--j

The game is over. Blu-ray wins because:

- It has superior technology. Better quality (bitrate, etc), more capacity, more room to grow.

yoak
Jan 5, 2008, 04:14 AM
Slightly higher data density, I guess, but I gave up on archiving to optical discs a long time ago-- they just aren't reliable enough.

Out of curiosity, what do you back up to?

Im happy that BD is getting ahead. For once the better format seems to win.

One format will hopefully makes films cheaper as they wont have to produce disks for 2 different formats

dAlen
Jan 5, 2008, 04:19 AM
O.K. I was on wired.com and saw an add for Blu ray.
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/bluray_site.htm
I clicked the ad and chose the United States version of the site (its that or Japanese) and what did I see???

On the home page on the lower right where it says Blu Ray supporters, they show one-by-one logos of the companies supporting Blu Ray.
As you sit through and watch, Universals logo shows up as well as the text Universal Music Group.

Interesting, I think, to see support from Universal (in any form) seeing that they are supposedly backing another format.

I have not seen any press announcements, but who knows what CES holds.
As my above post pointed out, it appears New Line is now also going to go Blu Ray exclusive.
So the chart on the news story may need to be updated to reflect this. ;)

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news/show/HBO/New_Line/Warner/Warner:_New_Line,_HBO_Not_Covered_By_Blu-ray_Announcement_(UPDATED)/1328

Peace

dAlen

noservice2001
Jan 5, 2008, 05:02 AM
http://www.dvdtown.com/news/new-line-drops-hd-dvd-as-well/5066

hvfsl
Jan 5, 2008, 05:08 AM
So lets say you buy a Blu-Ray film for the kids. $25? maybe more? I've seen them here in the UK sell for that figure in pounds sterling

Anyway, this movie is a Disney movie for the kids - is it going to last long with their grubby little fingers covered in chocolate, saliva and perhaps other bits & pieces?

A home backup of this movie would be great, with HD-DVD this isn't a problem. Can you do the same with Blu-Ray?

The quality is the same. 1080p at roughly the same bit rates with differing codecs.

I'm still rooting for HD-DVD AND Blu-Ray.
I have been able to backup (and decrypt) some of my BluRay disks before, I had a BluRay drive on my PC, but didn't have the right version of PowerDVD at the time to play them.

The only problem is if the disk uses BD+, but even then, there are ways around it.

trevelyn
Jan 5, 2008, 05:11 AM
a bit more accurate now:

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w265/llamabearduck/warner_300-2.png

;)

noservice2001
Jan 5, 2008, 05:24 AM
a bit more accurate now:

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w265/llamabearduck/warner_300-2.png

;)

what if all the reds were together instead of spread out?

Brianstorm91
Jan 5, 2008, 05:40 AM
I bet my friend a fiver that Blu-Ray would win :D

JFreak
Jan 5, 2008, 05:54 AM
So...the best format wins?

Hopefully, yes; this time. Too bad Sony couldn't win VHS with their superior Betamax +20 years ago, but this time they have the edge.

JFreak
Jan 5, 2008, 05:59 AM
what if all the reds were together instead of spread out?

It would be nearly 1/3 but closer to 1/4, and this is an approximation. Nevertheless, there is significantly more support for Blu-Ray so we might be close to marketing breakthrough here.

This situation means that:

1) HD-DVD drives will come significantly down in price. Their only chance.
2) Blu-Ray will answer to the competition, but not that much.
3) As soon as HD-DVD camp goes desperate, Blu-Ray will begin selling discount titles.
4) People will realise that Blu-Ray is the way to go.
5) Movie rentals go Blu-Ray, which means that:
==> HD-DVD dies.

Kaptajn Haddock
Jan 5, 2008, 06:09 AM
I work as a dvd author, and as that, I can comment this news as an expert. HD DVD is mostly a normal dvd on steroids. HD DVD often use the same codec (MPEG2) as normal dvds, but at a much higher bitrate - therefore the better picture. Also HD DVD is much cheaper for dvd factories to upgrade their facility to. HD DVD is just as easy to author as normal dvds.

Blu-ray is in many ways more advanced, holds more content, and is way more complicated to author than HD DVD. It is also very expensive for dvd factories to upgrade their facility to in order to be able to replicate Blu-Ray discs.

The quality in picture and sound on the two formats are exactly the same. If two titles has been released with different quality in picture and sound, that is mostly caused by the dvd author and the encoding process used, as well as the HD CAM SR master used. It has nothing to do with one format being better than the other.

If you ask me, I don't give a rats ass which format survive. I would just like to see one single format soon, so that people can relax, buy a player and start to grow their hd dvd collection. As of now this is way to confusing, and I don't want to buy something that may be obsolete a few years from now. Also I believe that SD dvds are in their prime, with one prestine looking relase coming out after the other. Hd dvs are infants with all the diseases following.

Well okay, if one format should survive that would be Blu-ray. Seems much more future proof, and it would be nice to see Sony win this battle as opposed to the Betamax VHS battle in the 1980's where the best quality format lost.

MrGeePee
Jan 5, 2008, 06:11 AM
Nice!!

I prefer Blu-ray anyway!

trevelyn
Jan 5, 2008, 06:15 AM
good enough for jazz and blues:

http://www.eatmycreativegenius.org/warner_300.png

Pretty big slice of the pie.

Much Ado
Jan 5, 2008, 06:25 AM
i know PS3's bluray supports 1080p. I read somewhere that PS3 downscales 720p to 480p or something like that. I was going to get PS3 until I read that.

For clarification, if you own a 720p TV set you're safe for games, right? The only issue is with the old sets that do: [1080i, 480p, 480i]?
I'm close to buying a PS3 but my TV does 720p max.

EDIT: But it's different with movies, which can't even do 720p?

zedsdead
Jan 5, 2008, 06:49 AM
good enough for jazz and blues:

http://www.eatmycreativegenius.org/warner_300.png

Pretty big slice of the pie.

It's about a quarter now...with Warner and New Line, HD DVD and the format war had a real chance at continuing for a while (I really thought dual-format players were going to simply end the war that way).

I was an HD DVD supporter until mid last year, when I stopped buying. I also started to care less about perfect quality and more about how I watch stuff, which is almost solely on Apple devices now (iPhone, Apple TV and Computer). It just became annoying, and after the Paramount switch, I decided not to get involved anymore. I really was only supporting HD DVD because Apple had stated they were supporting both and because of Sony's track record in format wars and my hatred for that company (Which is stupid really because it wasn't just Sony, not to mention that I do not like Microsoft that much either).

I actually am glad because Blu-Ray is better in most categories in the long-run, however, HD DVD does have no region coding and allows for people to burn HD DVD's out of regular SD discs which was very cool since the cost of both HD discs and burners are far too much right now.

Apple will only add to the Blu-Ray victory now...although I would rather Apple just do the HD downloads with iTunes and make my life better because I really could care less for optical media. The 720p on the Apple TV is amazing. There really isn't any sort of amazing difference between that and the HD discs unless you start analyzing every pixel. When you are just sitting back and watching, it is not that different (Apple does need to add 5.1 surround sound support).

Analog Kid
Jan 5, 2008, 06:58 AM
I've had 3 Hard Disks (IBM and Seagate) die on me (not through misuse, just.. bad luck) and haven't lost any data from scratched CDs/DVDs.. So it's reliable enough for me. I do a full constant Time Machine system backup to HD, but for archival or secondary work disks seem more practical.

I could burn 50 GB of eyeTV recordings to one BD (DivX or h.264) and it should play in my PS3.. (not mission critical data, but i'd rather not fill up my main drives with it) - I don't know how many other people are in a similar position, but it's a big boon for my set up.. :)
Out of curiosity, what do you back up to?

Im happy that BD is getting ahead. For once the better format seems to win.

One format will hopefully makes films cheaper as they wont have to produce disks for 2 different formats
I back up and archive to hard drives. I have a secondary RAID for Time Machine, and a few older FW enclosures for specific archives (images, etc). The key is that I know when the backup fails, because they're spun up and tested by the OS. They aren't completely immune to bit rot, but will be better when I get a periodic checksum running.

The problem with backing up and archiving to optical and throwing it in a drawer is two fold: you don't know when they've gone bad so you can't replace the backup before the primary fails, and the copy time is prohibitively long which discourages frequent test-and-copies.

I've done a little digging around to see what all the superiority is of BD, and the only benefit I see is about 50% more storage-- which is nice for data but kind of meaningless for movies. The tradeoff is more varied and complicated DRM schemes, and higher cost to manufacture. Can someone briefly outline what makes BD such a superior format?

I think settling on one format will drive down the cost of players because all of us fence-sitters will finally buy in, but I don't think it will impact the cost of content. There are many player manufacturers, but only one distributer of a given movie. If anything it might bounce up a bit-- there will always be a premium over DVD, but now there won't be a fight for marketshare.

Takeo
Jan 5, 2008, 07:13 AM
This situation means that:

1) HD-DVD drives will come significantly down in price. Their only chance.
2) Blu-Ray will answer to the competition, but not that much.
3) As soon as HD-DVD camp goes desperate, Blu-Ray will begin selling discount titles.
4) People will realise that Blu-Ray is the way to go.
5) Movie rentals go Blu-Ray, which means that:
==> HD-DVD dies.

#1 is already happening. There were massive $300 off sales on the A3 player on both Black Friday and Boxing Day. You could get an A3 plus 5 free movies for $99!!!!! I would have gotten one actually but I wasn't willing to get in line at 5 am for the privilege of participating in a 6 am stampede. I mean... for $99 and 5 free movies... who cares which format wins?! It would not have been a big loss.

In any case... I'm glad Blu-ray appears to be winning... but what I would really prefer would be HD Downloads + Apple TV. The only problem with Apple TV of course is that it will never support WMV files... so if you ever want something that it not available from the iTunes store... you're pretty much eff'd. That's a different kind of format war. Just can't win eh?

Manic Mouse
Jan 5, 2008, 07:21 AM
For clarification, if you own a 720p TV set you're safe for games, right? The only issue is with the old sets that do: [1080i, 480p, 480i]?
I'm close to buying a PS3 but my TV does 720p max.

EDIT: But it's different with movies, which can't even do 720p?

The PS3 can do Blu-Ray at 720p, it was only the old firmware that couldn't.

TMay
Jan 5, 2008, 07:50 AM
Actually, having many friends in the porn industry, I can personally tell you that my buddies at Vivid Entertainment have chosen both formats, which was interesting to say the least. For a while, Sony wouldn't allow adult titles to be published under Blu-Ray for moral reasons. However, Sony gave in an allowed them to pay up a hefty licensing fee just to publish on a Blu-Ray disc. This is the best part... Vivid cannot do any of their own in house encoding for Blu-Ray. They have to send the final product over to Germany to get it done, as part of the agreement.

While, with HD-DVD, they didn't have to pay the royalty fees. Nor do they have to send anything anywhere to get encoded. Actually, their HD-DVD production is all done in house. So it's cheaper in the long run for Vivid, and for consumers.

Even on that note of the porn industry choosing the next format... you're forgetting the missing contender. Online distribution, my friend. And porn has already chosen it. Who wants to watch HD porn anyway, and see the pimples & razor burn in a ridiculously amazing video quality? Not me... count me out!

Blu-Ray has the cooler name. I'll give it that. "HD-DVD" sounds old and dated. We've heard the term "DVD" thrown around for more than a decade now. It's not as appealing to hear the acronym "HD-DVD" because of that. And the Blu-Ray camp advertises that it can hold up to 50GB (25GB per layer). But what makes that interesting is that the Blu-Ray format is having a hard time accessing that second layer, meaning that there realistically only utilizing 25GB. HD-DVD is having no problems using both of their layers, giving them 30GB total (15GB per layer).

Even better yet, both formats are using the same codec (h.264) with nearly the same compression... which means... similar file sizes in the end!!! So what does it matter that Blu-Ray advertises more space? It's not utilized. It's wasted, unless you're storing data on burned Blu-Ray media.

What I really want to get at is that we don't want Sony to win. We know how expensive Sony is to license anything, based upon past examples. Mini-Disc lost. Beta lost. It was expensive for anyone to license. And you know what happens to expensive media? The price gets passed onto the consumer - that's what. And guess what else Sony is involved in? Oh yeah... they're also a movie studio with competition, such as Warner, Universal, New Line, Disney, etc. It's like Apple endorsing and backing WMV. It's stupid, if you ask me. If Blu-Ray wins, you're going to pay more later, as prices WILL MOST DEFINITELY go up.

So guess how much Sony will charge studios to use Blu-Ray if they win the format war? I'll let you use your wildest imagination...

And, for the record, I work in production. When I chose to go HD at the house, I did my homework testing equipment. HD-DVD looked a hair bit better than Blu-Ray, IMHO. It may have had to do with the converters. But I saw better coloring, and smoother pans in HD-DVD. So, yes, I'm on the HD-DVD camp. It's makes better sense economically, and in quality.

That's my rant.

Dude...Blu-Ray...it's a consortium!!!

Blu-Ray is Sony, Sharp, Panasonic, Dell, HP, Sun, Mitsubishi, LG, Samsung, TDK, Hitachi (170 members at this date).

mac-er
Jan 5, 2008, 08:00 AM
Too bad it sucks in actual storage space. Blu-ray was better from the get go because of 50GB compared to HD-DVD's 30 GB. And BD isn't stuck to just mpeg2.
D.

Umm, HD DVD supports up to 51 GB in triple layer.