Buy the 8800GT now or a better card later?

[Mercuric Oxide]

First off, with the 3-5 week delay, I will most likely start off with a stock Mac Pro model. My questions are:

1. With each Powermac/Mac Pro generation, how often are the graphics cards updated?

2. Assuming there is no overhaul in the design, will new card options always be compatible with the Mac Pro?

3. With the current MP architecture, how future proof is it card wise? Do the latest releases from ATi/Nvidia for PC physically fit inside? Will the current MP most likely support future HDCP complient cards with HDMI?

Sorry, I know there is a lot of hate for gamers here, I just want to say that I am in no way upset with the current MP. I am a college student and the MP will mainly be used for maya, adobe cs3, and for my video game design tech elecs. I just happen to love OSX, will use the MP for college, and would enjoy a video game or two.

Please do not suggest a PC ::gag:: :)

Thanks for reading

[Grimace]

You won't likely see any other options until the next Mac Pro update in 9 months or so. The 8800 card is a great option and one that will last you a very long time.

[Mercuric Oxide]

Hmm, I guess I should just get the nvidia in a month when it's readily available then.

Historically, have video card updates a yr down the line been compatible? I guess that's a situation facing the "old" MP users with the 8800 GT..

Thanks

[timestamp]

I haven't decided what I am going to do yet. I imagine once the orders pour in they will start shipping those things faster. That makes me want to go with the 8800GT since it is only a $160 upgrade.

[akm3]

I haven't been around the Mac world that long, but what I've seen of Apple and the Mac Pro, do NOT count on an upgraded video card being available...ever. :)

Go with the 8800gt if it's remotely important to you.

[amtctt]

I haven't been around the Mac world that long, but what I've seen of Apple and the Mac Pro, do NOT count on an upgraded video card being available...ever. :)

Go with the 8800gt if it's remotely important to you.

agreed, i mean look at what they did with the first mac pro, they used a year old ATI 1900 (good card, but still a year old) and didn't offer anything different until now with the MP revision. 8800gt is a pretty great option for the MP. Hopefully the ol' tax refund will be sizeable enough to hook it up.

[Og Oggilby]

Check this out: http://www.barefeats.com/york2.html

[darthraige]

I haven't decided what I am going to do yet. I imagine once the orders pour in they will start shipping those things faster. That makes me want to go with the 8800GT since it is only a $160 upgrade.

Seriously though, I bet you it will ship sooner than 3-5 weeks, a lot sooner.

[netdog]

I think that you will see the ATI 38xx very soon.

[psingh01]

I think that you will see the ATI 38xx very soon.

I agree. Like when they upgrade the Mac Pro again.....in 3 years :D

[Kosh66]

Hmm, I guess I should just get the nvidia in a month when it's readily available then.

Historically, have video card updates a yr down the line been compatible? I guess that's a situation facing the "old" MP users with the 8800 GT..

Thanks

Why not just order both now - order the Mac Pro with the default card and order the Geforce 8800GT in a separate order, now.

[Mercuric Oxide]

Well, I'm a college student, using money I saved from a part-time job. After this order, I have about $500 left (not counting credit card), so I would have only been willing to risk starving if I could update the card and get it within a week.

Since its 5-7 weeks, I think I'll just wait until it's reduced to 1-2 weeks, and save some money for food ;)

[darthraige]

Why not just order both now - order the Mac Pro with the default card and order the Geforce 8800GT in a separate order, now.

What's the price for the 8800GT on its own? And where can I get one? Off of NVIDIA's website?

[Mercuric Oxide]

^ From Apple its 349$. Not sure if it'll work from anyone else.

Also: How easy is it to swap cards? Does anything need to be connected or wired?

[timestamp]

What's the price for the 8800GT on its own? And where can I get one? Off of NVIDIA's website?

It is on Apples website and it is $350 for the card alone. I think that is a ridiculous proposition though.

For me it is only $160 to upgrade to the 8800GT. If I were to not get it CTO, it would cost me nearly $200 more to get it. That to me seems rather silly.

I am actually shocked some people are doing it.

[darthraige]

It is on Apples website and it is $350 for the card alone. I think that is a ridiculous proposition though.

For me it is only $160 to upgrade to the 8800GT. If I were to not get it CTO, it would cost me nearly $200 more to get it. That to me seems rather silly.

I am actually shocked some people are doing it.

I want this machine so bad right now and don't know what to do. I might just suck it up and wait the 3-5 weeks. But that's so painful to do. Either way I am gonna wait until 1/15 to order. So maybe some magic will happen and they will get a boat load in.

[timestamp]

I want this machine so bad right now and don't know what to do. I might just suck it up and wait the 3-5 weeks. But that's so painful to do. Either way I am gonna wait until 1/15 to order. So maybe some magic will happen and they will get a boat load in.

I think they will get them earlier than expected. It has happened a number of times with other products.

DIdn't the original X1900 have this problem.

[darthraige]

I think they will get them earlier than expected. It has happened a number of times with other products.

DIdn't the original X1900 have this problem.

I believe so. Also, the RAID card jumped to 3-5 weeks for only a few days, then it went down to 2-4 days. So anything can happen.

[TyleRomeo]

Wait kid, the 2600XT will hold up for at least 3 years easy, and there will be other options for the mac pro, you're dealing with 16x pci-express 2.0 slot, no card can even fully saturate the whole bus. I was able to get a 9700 Pro upgrade for my 2002 G4 3 years later for a very good price. I'm buying the stock one since I can always keep the 2600XT and run more than 2 monitors. Soon I'll have a set up like Jackman in Swordfish. Best of luck.

First off, with the 3-5 week delay, I will most likely start off with a stock Mac Pro model. My questions are:

1. With each Powermac/Mac Pro generation, how often are the graphics cards updated?

2. Assuming there is no overhaul in the design, will new card options always be compatible with the Mac Pro?

3. With the current MP architecture, how future proof is it card wise? Do the latest releases from ATi/Nvidia for PC physically fit inside? Will the current MP most likely support future HDCP complient cards with HDMI?

Sorry, I know there is a lot of hate for gamers here, I just want to say that I am in no way upset with the current MP. I am a college student and the MP will mainly be used for maya, adobe cs3, and for my video game design tech elecs. I just happen to love OSX, will use the MP for college, and would enjoy a video game or two.

Please do not suggest a PC ::gag:: :)

Thanks for reading

[surflordca]

Seriously though, I bet you it will ship sooner than 3-5 weeks, a lot sooner.

I hope so. I ordered a system with the nVidia card and my ship date is Feb.14 and a arrival date of Feb.26 :apple:

[Mercuric Oxide]

Any chance in hell that the 8800GT can be purchased separately at the Apple Store...? :o

[ReanimationLP]

The 8800GT isnt too overpriced, only 60 or so above the PC versions on Newegg. Which isnt bad when you think its Apple, and how well they love to gouge their upgrade prices.

The 8800GT is faster than the 8800 Ultra and 8800GTX at some things. Its an awesome card.

The ATI 3850 and 3870 are actually slower than the GT.

[timestamp]

The 8800GT isnt too overpriced, only 60 or so above the PC versions on Newegg. Which isnt bad when you think its Apple, and how well they love to gouge their upgrade prices.

The 8800GT is faster than the 8800 Ultra and 8800GTX at some things. Its an awesome card.

The ATI 3850 and 3870 are actually slower than the GT.

I don't think it is overpriced, I can't justify paying for two video cards just to get my machine quicker.

[Mercuric Oxide]

Do you guys think the stock 2600xt will fetch anything on ebay? Or will old MP users most likely opt for the 8800?

When I think about it, this does seem like too much of a hassle to get the machine quicker....but I can't resist the thought of having this comp by next week :confused:

[thagomizer]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but just a couple weeks after introducing the 8800 GT, NVIDIA came out with a revision of the 8800 GTS that is even faster -- and even faster than then 8800 GTX and 8800 Ultra for some applications. It's just a little more expensive.

(This new 8800 GTS with 512MB memory, 128 shader processors, and 65nm fabrication is not to be confused with the older 320MB or 640MB versions from early 2007, also called "8800 GTS", and fabbed at 90nm. Why they kept the name is beyond me, because it's very confusing.)

The 8800 GT and "new" 8800 GTS are almost identical, except that the latter card runs at higher core and memory clocks, and has 128 shaders instead of the GT's 112. They both have a 256 bit memory interface and 754M transistors, which leads one to believe that the chips are identical, except for having 16 shaders disabled on the GT.

Read about it here:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3175

For those of us who want the best performance out of our $2500+ investment, I'm wondering if it's the safest bet to just buy a Mac Pro with the stock card, and stick in a PC version 8800 GTS and run it with the OS X native drivers for the 8800 GT? Surely the drivers are the same, because the chips are identical. Are there any PC cards that use EFI yet? And if not, it should be a simple matter to flash them with EFI boot firmware from the Apple 8800 GT.

And NVidia will be releasing 9000-series cards in Feb/Mar which will surpass the 8800 Ultra, so there may be yet another reason to wait... if Apple will be so kind as to let us use them.

[psingh01]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but just a couple weeks after introducing the 8800 GT, NVIDIA came out with a revision of the 8800 GTS that is even faster -- and even faster than then 8800 GTX and 8800 Ultra for some applications. It's just a little more expensive.

(This new 8800 GTS with 512MB memory, 128 shader processors, and 65nm fabrication is not to be confused with the older 320MB or 640MB versions from early 1997, also called "8800 GTS", and fabbed at 90nm. Why they kept the name is beyond me, because it's very confusing.)...

:eek:

[thagomizer]

Any chance in hell that the 8800GT can be purchased separately at the Apple Store...? :o

Yes, it is on the US store now for $349, and UK store for L220.

[Lord Blackadder]

Get the 8800GT. Period. Good card.

[thagomizer]

:eek:

1997? Those ATI rage pro's sure were fun. Yeah, I goofed, I meant 2007. :-)

[Pressure]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but just a couple weeks after introducing the 8800 GT, NVIDIA came out with a revision of the 8800 GTS that is even faster -- and even faster than then 8800 GTX and 8800 Ultra for some applications. It's just a little more expensive.

(This new 8800 GTS with 512MB memory, 128 shader processors, and 65nm fabrication is not to be confused with the older 320MB or 640MB versions from early 2007, also called "8800 GTS", and fabbed at 90nm. Why they kept the name is beyond me, because it's very confusing.)

The 8800 GT and "new" 8800 GTS are almost identical, except that the latter card runs at higher core and memory clocks, and has 128 shaders instead of the GT's 112. They both have a 256 bit memory interface and 754M transistors, which leads one to believe that the chips are identical, except for having 16 shaders disabled on the GT.

Read about it here:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3175

For those of us who want the best performance out of our $2500+ investment, I'm wondering if it's the safest bet to just buy a Mac Pro with the stock card, and stick in a PC version 8800 GTS and run it with the OS X native drivers for the 8800 GT? Surely the drivers are the same, because the chips are identical. Are there any PC cards that use EFI yet? And if not, it should be a simple matter to flash them with EFI boot firmware from the Apple 8800 GT.

And NVidia will be releasing 9000-series cards in Feb/Mar which will surpass the 8800 Ultra, so there may be yet another reason to wait... if Apple will be so kind as to let us use them.

Marginally faster is the word you are looking for.

The bang for the buck is the Geforce 8800GT.

[thagomizer]

Are there any PC cards that use EFI yet? And if not, it should be a simple matter to flash them with EFI boot firmware from the Apple 8800 GT.


By the way, if anyone is wondering how to put a new firmware onto a PC NVidia card, you have to do it from within DOS, and you need a copy of an EFI firmware (such as the one Apple will supply on their 8800 GT.

The following article is for overclocking, but you could follow the latter half of the instructions to just load a new firmware using DOS.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/11/23/overclock_your_graphics_card_in_five_minutes/

[Lord Blackadder]

Marginally faster is the word you are looking for.

If you are a performance fiend you can always take your Apple 8800GT, put a better cooling HSF unit on it and overclock. OR flash the new GTS, since it is a G2 core card.

[thagomizer]

Marginally faster is the word you are looking for.

The bang for the buck is the Geforce 8800GT.

I agree the 8800 GT is a great card, more than I expected from Apple. Just looking at all available options. The GTS is about 7-10% faster, maybe $50 more. GT is the best bang for the buck when just the card is considered... but when spending $2000+ on a computer, I'd take a 7% 3D graphics performance increase for $50 any day.

[Mercuric Oxide]

Yes, it is on the US store now for $349, and UK store for L220.

No, I mean, the actual store, outside..

[akm3]

I agree the 8800 GT is a great card, more than I expected from Apple. Just looking at all available options. The GTS is about 7-10% faster, maybe $50 more. GT is the best bang for the buck when just the card is considered... but when spending $2000+ on a computer, I'd take a 7% 3D graphics performance increase for $50 any day.

Again, more than you expected for today - wait 500 days and see how you feel about it when it is STILL the high end BTO card :)

[thedommer]

The 8800 GT and "new" 8800 GTS are almost identical, except that the latter card runs at higher core and memory clocks, and has 128 shaders instead of the GT's 112. They both have a 256 bit memory interface and 754M transistors, which leads one to believe that the chips are identical, except for having 16 shaders disabled on the GT.

For those of us who want the best performance out of our $2500+ investment, I'm wondering if it's the safest bet to just buy a Mac Pro with the stock card, and stick in a PC version 8800 GTS and run it with the OS X native drivers for the 8800 GT? Surely the drivers are the same, because the chips are identical. Are there any PC cards that use EFI yet? And if not, it should be a simple matter to flash them with EFI boot firmware from the Apple 8800 GT.

And NVidia will be releasing 9000-series cards in Feb/Mar which will surpass the 8800 Ultra, so there may be yet another reason to wait... if Apple will be so kind as to let us use them.

I heard that a stock 8800GT PC version wont work on the mac but will work in bootcamp windows. so by looking at that I would presume the PC version of the 8800GTS wont work either...except through bootcamp. BUT I would love to know if for some reason this is possible. Id LOVE to get an 8800GTS. or any 9000 series card.... but thats wishfull thinking.

If someone flashes a GTS and gets it to work please let me know!!!! Im ordering my mac in approximately 3 weeks and will be ordering the GT. but if I can flash a GTS then Ill definately do that!

another question.... The PC version of the GT only works in bootcamp XP/vista. does that mean the mac version will only work in OSX.......?

[Pressure]

I heard that a stock 8800GT PC version wont work on the mac but will work in bootcamp windows. so by looking at that I would presume the PC version of the 8800GTS wont work either...except through bootcamp. BUT I would love to know if for some reason this is possible. Id LOVE to get an 8800GTS. or any 9000 series card.... but thats wishfull thinking.

If someone flashes a GTS and gets it to work please let me know!!!! Im ordering my mac in approximately 3 weeks and will be ordering the GT. but if I can flash a GTS then Ill definately do that!

another question.... The PC version of the GT only works in bootcamp XP/vista. does that mean the mac version will only work in OSX.......?

You can hack support with the 10.5.2 kext.

You can see a bit about it here (http://netkas.org/?p=46).

[brendon2020]

yeah that new 8800gts card looks great, it did beat out the gtx and the ultra in most cases, but when the res went above 1920x1200 thats when the gtx and ultra started pulling ahead. Lucky for me all my games i play are 1920x1200 or less.

[thedommer]

yeah that new 8800gts card looks great, it did beat out the gtx and the ultra in most cases, but when the res went above 1920x1200 thats when the gtx and ultra started pulling ahead. Lucky for me all my games i play are 1920x1200 or less.

if someone can clarify that the 8800GTS is STABLE on the new macs and completely reliable then Ill definately get that!

[Kuraudo]

Well only by Feb 13, by the time 8800GT is shipped,
the problem is that the timing is very very odd.. You see
the 9600GT and 98xx series will be released and then the 8800GT will seem like dust.
Bad timing because a cheaper 9600 GT is expected to perform better (not sure what margin) over 8800 GT, but at least faster than double of 8500 GT.

So the PC again will have a more robust graphics in real time matters.

AND, timb and lordblackadder did say they were working with EFI on making the 9 series Nvidia cards work on Mac Pro, they can't make promises but they sure sound like they know what they are doing and are committed.

So I might play the waiting game until Valentines day, see what rolls around. IF nothing happens and the hackers still can't help us, I guess 8800GT you should order. By the time a month rolls around you should be able to pick it up in the store right away and the 5 week wait wont occur again. Like when the x1900 XT just arrived, there was a wait, some time after they had plenty of stock and you could just walk in the store and buy it.

If I'm wrong with any of these, you can correct me, but this is the info that I have gathered. :rolleyes:

[Topper]

Bad timing because a cheaper 9600 GT is expected to perform better (not sure what margin) over 8800 GT.

Nope.
The 9600 GT will have approximately the same memory bandwidth as the 8800 GT but the 8800 GT will have more shaders and a higher fillrate.

The 9800 GTX is going to blow everything off the map including the 8800 GTX and Ultra.
But Apple will never offer a card as expensive as the 9800 GTX as a bto consumer video card.

[thedommer]

Nope.
The 9600 GT will have approximately the same memory bandwidth as the 8800 GT but the 8800 GT will have more shaders and a higher fillrate.

The 9800 GTX is going to blow everything off the map including the 8800 GTX and Ultra.
But Apple will never offer a card as expensive as the 9800 GTX as a bto consumer video card.

I will be happy with the 8800 GT. I like my games but I shouldnt be playing them anyways :) I have a 1900XT right now and its great at 1900x1200 on almost every game except crysis and a few others. so the 8800GT will be a nitciable improvment over that. should last me a while....but a 9800GTX would rock soooooo hard!

[Kuraudo]

Thanks for kindly correcting me. Other people who've corrected others do it so snobbishlingly.
I don't fear being wrong!
But we all need the correct answer! :)

Cool, so my choice lies between 9800gtx flashed or 8800GT
:)

And theDommer
yeah almost all games minus high end games released final quarter of '07 are slow, but even dx10 card owners report the same problem.
My 24" 2407wfp-hc monitor does really excellent scaling function at 1680x1050, and pretty decent 1280x800 as well so the only games I need to run at the smallest, 1280x800
are World in Conflict and Crysis.
I have to run GoW at 1680x1050, but 1920x1200 is ok for short periods of time before i get some small headache.
Call of Duty 4 runs great at 1680x1050 with medium and some higher settings on x1900 XT
I mean i guess we are not THAT outdated. Just a little more patience
Nope.
The 9600 GT will have approximately the same memory bandwidth as the 8800 GT but the 8800 GT will have more shaders and a higher fillrate.

The 9800 GTX is going to blow everything off the map including the 8800 GTX and Ultra.
But Apple will never offer a card as expensive as the 9800 GTX as a bto consumer video card.

[Pressure]

Well only by Feb 13, by the time 8800GT is shipped,
the problem is that the timing is very very odd.. You see
the 9600GT and 98xx series will be released and then the 8800GT will seem like dust.
Bad timing because a cheaper 9600 GT is expected to perform better (not sure what margin) over 8800 GT, but at least faster than double of 8500 GT.

So the PC again will have a more robust graphics in real time matters.

AND, timb and lordblackadder did say they were working with EFI on making the 9 series Nvidia cards work on Mac Pro, they can't make promises but they sure sound like they know what they are doing and are committed.

So I might play the waiting game until Valentines day, see what rolls around. IF nothing happens and the hackers still can't help us, I guess 8800GT you should order. By the time a month rolls around you should be able to pick it up in the store right away and the 5 week wait wont occur again. Like when the x1900 XT just arrived, there was a wait, some time after they had plenty of stock and you could just walk in the store and buy it.

If I'm wrong with any of these, you can correct me, but this is the info that I have gathered. :rolleyes:

Nope.
The 9600 GT will have approximately the same memory bandwidth as the 8800 GT but the 8800 GT will have more shaders and a higher fillrate.

The 9800 GTX is going to blow everything off the map including the 8800 GTX and Ultra.
But Apple will never offer a card as expensive as the 9800 GTX as a bto consumer video card.

The Geforce 9600GT is supposed to replace the shortlived Geforce 8800GS, that is meant to fight the Radeon HD 3850.

You can see a preview of the card here (http://en.expreview.com/?p=184#more-184). Only 3DMark2006 scores though.

[Kuraudo]

^ Now thats good information, Pressure. There was so much going on for stats in macnn and other Mac sites that had some odd info.

So it looks to me the 8800GT will be the best card, bang for dollar to buy!
When the 9800 series are out, and the flash fix will work , and price goes down for it from 449 to 349, we can expect Mac Pro gamers to upgrade.
That's if the stated estimated price range of 449 is correct for 9800 series.
Can you help us confirm that too?

Thanks

[Pressure]

^ Now thats good information, Pressure. There was so much going on for stats in macnn and other Mac sites that had some odd info.

So it looks to me the 8800GT will be the best card, bang for dollar to buy!
When the 9800 series are out, and the flash fix will work , and price goes down for it from 449 to 349, we can expect Mac Pro gamers to upgrade.
That's if the stated estimated price range of 449 is correct for 9800 series.
Can you help us confirm that too?

Thanks

Good to hear it cleared a few things :)

In regards to the Geforce 9800GTX, it will come later than the dual-chip Geforce 9800GX2. It's this dual-chip card that is rumored to initially cost $449 and be announced February 14th (source (http://www.tomshardware.com/2008/01/05/exclusive_nvidia_geforce_9800gx2/)).

Information regarding the Geforce 9800GTX is a bit vague at the moment and nothing concrete have shown itself yet. There are some rumors regarding the specifications but they are so wildly out of proportion that I will refrain from posting them.

[chewietobbacca]

Wait kid, the 2600XT will hold up for at least 3 years easy, and there will be other options for the mac pro, you're dealing with 16x pci-express 2.0 slot, no card can even fully saturate the whole bus.

The 2600XT will not hold up for 3 years easy if you do any slight gaming at all. In fact, the 2600XT cant' even beat the previous generations budget card king, the X1950PRO.

The 8800GT isnt too overpriced, only 60 or so above the PC versions on Newegg. Which isnt bad when you think its Apple, and how well they love to gouge their upgrade prices.

The 8800GT is faster than the 8800 Ultra and 8800GTX at some things. Its an awesome card.

The ATI 3850 and 3870 are actually slower than the GT.

The 8800GT isn't faster than the 8800Ultra. In fact, the current hierarchy goes this way: 8800 Ultra > 8800GTS 512 > 8800GTX > 8800GT, but the GT is very very close to the GTX and the GTS512 is close to the Ultra (though at 2560 x 1600 resolution, the higher bandwidth/bus on the Ultra and GTX let them pull away).

Little fact: 8800GT was supposed to retail at an MSRP of $249 or less but has been gouged like crazy because of demand and short supply. In fact, short supply in general might be why adding it causes a huge delay to ship.

As far as flashing an 8800GT to 8800GTS or vice versa, it doesn't work that way, and the SP's cannot be unlocked as they are physically laser etched out. Drivers wont work that way either - sure, you download the same drivers, but the drivers still detect what card is what...

As far as the 9800's go, the 9800GX2 is supposedly due midway through Febuary, and is rumored to be a dual-G92 solution (two 8800GTS 512's put together). As far as the 9800GTX goes, no one knows for sure whether it's the new generation architecture or a refresh of the 8800GTX. Nvidia has kept tight wraps on it.

Expect the next king of performance to retail for PC's at $600+ though (unless ATI gets their butts in shape fast), so I don't even want to imagine what Apple will sell it standalone as if they offer it at all.

Unfortunately, with what they did last time with the MacPro's, it would be a stretch to see them include the 9 series soon - after all, they had the 1900XT last time and since then there were the X1950's, HD2900's, HD3800's, and the 8800's and none were supported.

[macgruder]

It is on Apples website and it is $350 for the card alone. I think that is a ridiculous proposition though.

For me it is only $160 to upgrade to the 8800GT. If I were to not get it CTO, it would cost me nearly $200 more to get it. That to me seems rather silly.

I am actually shocked some people are doing it.

Is it working though? I get the impression that it's an OS issue not a supply one. In other words, even if you buy the card separately it won't work because Apple have to update Leopard. Just what I thought.

[Og Oggilby]

Does the 8800GTS (or GT) work when running bootcamp / XP64 on a 2007 Mac Pro?