Hazing in my fraternity!!

[tkepongo]

So it's Initiation Week for our freshmen and last night two of them were hazed. Approximately at 10:30, I was reading my business law book and heard someone puking from the bathroom. I went in and saw a freshman on the floor, head resting on the toilet seat and puking like crazy. Downstairs in the basement was another freshman laying on the stripper stage and puking into a trash can.

Apparently, our president and pledge educator got two freshmen to drink a fifth of alcohol within an hour before a scavenger hunt. So they missed out on the scavenger hunt and I spent the rest of the night feeding them bread and water and trying my best to keep them from passing out. At midnight, I go outside for some fresh air and the president and pledge educator were sitting out at the porch smoking!

I think it's time for our president to step down from his position. He had taken the position for granted and have violated our fraternity's bylaws, changed our democracy into dictatorship, allocating our money into useless funds and have even forged MY signature into a house lease without my consent.

So I think I'm going to send a formal letter to our Alumni Board president and ask for impeachment. If he doesn't get impeached, what would you guys recommend?

[ToddW]

you know hazing is pretty bad in frats nowadays. however with that being said, the biggest rule in hazing is you don't do anything that you don't want. when i pledged i got hazed like a mother but i just kept telling them to stick it. i earned respect also. there are some pledges that just will do anything you tell them to. however those two guys should have also shown some restraint as well. be careful with what you are doing, you can get yourself blackballed. remember brothers stick with brothers. handle in the frat with the officers about the pledging activities first. say some restraint needs to be in order and that we need to watch the pledges pretty closely. the last thing frats need in this day and age is more negative press. frats are about brotherhood and getting laid!

[ucfgrad93]

Makes me glad that when I went to college, I ignored the whole frat scene.

[.JahJahwarrior.]

you know hazing is pretty bad in frats nowadays. however with that being said, the biggest rule in hazing is you don't do anything that you don't want. when i pledged i got hazed like a mother but i just kept telling them to stick it. i earned respect also. there are some pledges that just will do anything you tell them to. however those two guys should have also shown some restraint as well. be careful with what you are doing, you can get yourself blackballed. remember brothers stick with brothers. handle in the frat with the officers about the pledging activities first. say some restraint needs to be in order and that we need to watch the pledges pretty closely. the last thing frats need in this day and age is more negative press. frats are about brotherhood and getting laid!

1. The biggest rule in hazing is don't do anything that's dangerous or illegal. You can argue this, but the rules of common sense are not on your side. You don't have to break the law or endanger people to earn respect.

2. Shown restraint? How about respect for the law! And for their own fraternity bylaws!

3. Brothers stick with brothers? What kind of brother is one that violates the law, your fraternity's bylaws, and the trust people have for each other (forging signatures is a violation of trust in my opinion)

4. The last thing frats need in this day and age is to be allowed to do illegal and sordid things out of the public eye.

Report them. Are the two guys who got hazed under 21?




This is the reason I would never consider joining a fraternity, and often look down on those who do. The goal of life is not "brotherhood and getting laid" in my opinion. All I hear about are the stupid things that frats do, and the only support for it all is "it creates brotherhood!" Screw brotherhood. Brotherhood is not puking in a toilet all night!

[themadchemist]

I'm sure this violates multiple university policies and it sounds like your leadership is being pretty irresponsible. The wanton lack of restraint on the part of some frats or some members of some frats is wholly unacceptable. The fraternity system seems like it can be really positive for a lot of people, but there is this huge downside that has to be taken care of. Bad apples like the ones in your frat make people like me, who were never part of the Greek system, really question the value added.

While I personally think you should report this, I have no investment in the politics of your situation. Remember that blatant violations can get a frat thrown off campus (it has definitely happened at my alma mater) and that you do have to deal with these folks for a while so it is best to have some coalition of support.

That said, I vehemently disagree with ToddW's argument that because "frats are about brotherhood," you should try to avoid nailing these guys. Brotherhood should also involve looking out for your little brothers, not abusing and exploiting them. And if the "last thing frats need in this day and age is more negative press," then bozos like those that the OP describes should get their acts together.

But the real question is...Your frat has a stripper stage?!

[keysersoze]

Consider discussing with your Chapter Advisor. You will need some high level backup if you proceed on this, and your CA is a good link to fast-tracking this issue up the chain of command. Also, it's a good idea to be firm in your belief of what you want to do, and your CA can help clarify your options.

Hazing, including forced alcohol consumption, violates TKE's (I assume you are TKE by your post name) bylaws and should be reported. Hazing will likely not just end in an impeachment of officers. It is grounds for expulsion. If you feel unsafe in any way, you should report to your CA immediately.

[Much Ado]

So this is what the Freemasons get up to...

[leekohler]

To the OP- quite honestly, I think you should report it. What you just described is extremely dangerous behavior. Those two guys could have died. No one should be drinking that much alcohol in that short a period of time.

Other than reporting it, your other option is to leave. It sounds to me like maybe this particular fraternity may not be a good fit for you.

[yellow]

Hmm... things sure seem kinder and gentler than when I was a frat boy.

[BanjoBanker]

Forced consumption of alcohol is dangerous and should not be allowed. Aside from that, I am a little confused. You say the two pledges were throwing up, but not how much they had. I am not sure I would call this a hazing incident. When I was a pledge, we had hazing. My dad had hazing when he was a pledge. The stunts the colleges and universities call hazing today are ridiculous. My son had to do some crazy things when he was a pledge, but I kept waiting to hear about being hazed. It never occurred. The politically correct police have labeled so many activities as hazing it is absurd. I say take it up with the pledge trainer and the president personally. In the event you are not satisfied with that result, bring it up at a chapter meeting. Do not go running off to the CA and national without handling it internally first, and avoid any getting your school involved at all costs. The last thing any Greek house needs in for the liberal press to get a hold of a "hazing" incident.

[yellow]

Apparently, our president and pledge educator got two freshmen to drink a fifth of alcohol within an hour before a scavenger hunt.

I think convincing someone to do it, and forcing someone to do it are very different things.

Is this hazing, or 2 freshmen who are unable to make good decisions?

[themadchemist]

I think convincing someone to do it, and forcing someone to do it are very different things.

Is this hazing, or 2 freshmen who are unable to make good decisions?

Even still, shouldn't the frat officers be encouraging positive behavior, not reinforcing bad decision-making? If this is bad judgment on the part of the freshmen, which it certainly is, then it sounds like it is definitely also bad judgment and poor leadership on the part of these officers.

[tobefirst]

Interesting fact:

You have, in your time at MR, posted enough information for anyone reading to contact your school president and let them know of the events that go on in your fraternity.

[yellow]

Even still, shouldn't the frat officers be encouraging positive behavior, not reinforcing bad decision-making?

Agreed. I cannot argue that the frat officers also made poor decisions here, but it seems like all were willing participants.

What I don't see is how the cry of "hazing!" is relevant. Seems like a knee-jerk reactionary phrase to me, and more likely, an excuse to create a power-struggle within the frat's political hierarchy.

It's far more adult to confront the problem head on by talking to all parties involved and finding out how and why it happened and what the purpose was behind it, before running off to the CA or the HQ to complain about "hazing".

[tefleming]

Agreed. I cannot argue that the frat officers also made poor decisions here, but it seems like all were willing participants.

What I don't see is how the cry of "hazing!" is relevant. Seems like a knee-jerk reactionary phrase to me, and more likely, an excuse to create a power-struggle within the frat's political hierarchy.

It's far more adult to confront the problem head on by talking to all parties involved and finding out how and why it happened and what the purpose was behind it, before running off to the CA or the HQ to complain about "hazing".

As a former pledge educator (back the day): QFT

[jive]

What on earth is hazing?


</Scottish>


Having just read about it in Wikipedia, you're all sick f**ks. Some of that just sounded torturesque.

[yellow]

What on earth is hazing?

Typically:
"Persecuting or harassing with humiliating tasks, words, or actions."
or
"An infliction of physical or mental harassment. Specifically prohibited as a component of pledge education."

[Osarkon]

What on earth is hazing?


</Scottish>

I've been wondering that as well. I'm guessing it's some American thing?

EDIT: yellow answered in the same breath as I asked, heh.

[tefleming]

It's a very ill-defined word.

Some people mean it to encompass even the annoyances that are brought up new members to an organization (need not be greek - sports teams and the military have some pretty intense sorts of hazing.)

I've always preferred to use it in reference to dangerous or immoral activities (drinking is, per se, neither - being "forced" to drink copious amounts is of course both - therein lies the problem, now we need to define "forced".)

///EDIT: not just an American thing, according to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazing

[mduser63]

Makes me glad that when I went to college, I ignored the whole frat scene.

Me too. The whole thing gets a serious, big :confused: from me. Nothing about the whole idea seems appealing to me at all.

[RedTomato]

OK so I know what hazing is. But what are frats? What's the advantage of being in a frat?

And forging your name on a house lease is a criminal activity and a breach of trust. And it could make you liable to pay any shortfall in the total rent if someone else (or everyone) defaults, as well as paying for any damage caused by anyone in the house. (depends on the lease small print)

If it was something you should have signed anyway, that's probably overlookable, but if it's a lease for somewhere you're not living in, get it sorted out.

[tefleming]

OK so I know what hazing is. But what are frats? What's the advantage of being in a frat?

And forging your name on a house lease is a criminal activity and a breach of trust. And it could make you liable to pay any shortfall in the total rent if someone else (or everyone) defaults, as well as paying for any damage caused by anyone in the house. (depends on the lease small print)

If it was something you should have signed anyway, that's probably overlookable, but if it's a lease for somewhere you're not living in, get it sorted out.

Social organizations, joining sort of gives you an automatic group of friends.

Some, it sounds like the OP's is, are residential. You live there, party there, etc.

My guess is that the OP was supposed to have signed the lease but hadn't - therefore, rather than holding up the whole lot, his house president signed for him.

[jsgreen]

If your fraternity chapter is national, I'd recommend you look to the support of the National governing body on a recommendation of how to handle it.

If you are a local organization, then you and the rest of the boys need to step up to the plate and get your house under control before 1) someone gets hurt or killed 2) the house gets disbanded 3) Sued by an irate parent 4) brothers get expelled

[dpaanlka]

I think fraternities are great for anyone that wants to do what it takes to be in them. Me personally... I almost made it but dropped out in the end. Not because of hazing, but I felt too old and disconnected from the rest of the people (I'm about two years older than most).

If you're going to be complaining about drinking and other sorts of things, then a fraternity isn't really for you.

[tefleming]

If your fraternity chapter is national, I'd recommend you look to the support of the National governing body on a recommendation of how to handle it.

If you are a local organization, then you and the rest of the boys need to step up to the plate and get your house under control before 1) someone gets hurt or killed 2) the house gets disbanded 3) Sued by an irate parent 4) brothers get expelled

If that's what you want.

Just know, that going to Nationals or the school administration will result in your chapter losing their charter.

If these guys are/were your friends, you owe it to them and the rest of the house to *try* and resolve this within the house.

[Dagless]

Makes me glad that when I went to college, I ignored the whole frat scene.

Makes me glad that I live in a country that doesn't care for things like that. You generally just made your own friends and/or partake in activities and sports.

[Counterfit]

They got sick off of half a fifth each? They were either lightweights or drinking grain alcohol.

[Chaszmyr]

They got sick off of half a fifth each? They were either lightweights or drinking grain alcohol.

a fifth usually refers to spirits which are generally 80 proof. half of a fifth of one of these beverages is the equivalent of almost two bottles of wine, that's quite a bit of alcohol for one person to drink in a short period of time.

[mlw1235]

Oddly enough, I'm actually wearing letters today (I'm a Kappa Sigma). And it is reading stories like these that disappoint me about some greek organizations. I pledged last semester, and I was not hazed. Period.

The motto in my fraternity (I won't go into how much the term "frat" bothers me) is that brotherhood is not formed by hazing, but by respect...so we spent a lot of time with the brothers in all sorts of situations.

tkepongo, I suggest you talk to your Chapter's advisor, but obviously tread the waters carefully, some people don't always see it the way that you and I do.

[themadchemist]

Oddly enough, I'm actually wearing letters today (I'm a Kappa Sigma). And it is reading stories like these that disappoint me about some greek organizations. I pledged last semester, and I was not hazed. Period.

The motto in my fraternity (I won't go into how much the term "frat" bothers me) is that brotherhood is not formed by hazing, but by respect...so we spent a lot of time with the brothers in all sorts of situations.

tkepongo, I suggest you talk to your Chapter's advisor, but obviously tread the waters carefully, some people don't always see it the way that you and I do.

I recall an amusing story about a Kappa Sigma chapter, at a school that will go unmentioned, involving a flask of alcohol, a beluga whale, and an aquarium to whose board the president of the university belonged.

[mlw1235]

I recall an amusing story about a Kappa Sigma chapter, at a school that will go unmentioned, involving a flask of alcohol, a beluga whale, and an aquarium to whose board the president of the university belonged.

;)

Gotta love greek life.

[nbs2]

In the end, if you are comfortable with risking multiple police incidents and negative press (I don't know what town-gown relations are like), don't do anything.

Otherwise, getting the school or Nationals involved may be the way to go.

"Two Freshmen Hospitalized After Hazing" does have a nice ring to it, though. And yes, forging your signature is a criminal offense.

[Abstract]

the last thing frats need in this day and age is more negative press. frats are about brotherhood and getting laid!

Funneeeee.

[jimN]

So, just so I'm clear on this. Two guys got drunk and were sick and now everyone is up in arms about it.

Evidently none of you have ever spent any time in the UK or been a member of a sports team within a UK university. It's quite common for people to drink until they are sick and more often than they'll drink more afterwards, and do it again on numerous occasions. Most teams I've been a part of have asked Freshers to do "mucky pints" which will inevitably result in you being sick and I've seen plenty of people rendered unconscious through alcohol. However, people do this of their own free will and I really don't see the problem with it. Yes, alcohol intoxication can kill but so can cycling, running, playing golf or crossing the road.

Now, had you turned around and stated that they had made them take drugs, sodomised them or made them humiliate themselves my response might be different but in this instance a sense of perspective is required and it seems that none of you have actually been a part of this process. Plus Americans are, as always, prudes about alcohol.

Competing interests: when I started University I didn't drink and refused to drink alcohol at my hockey 'initiation' (for want of a better word). No one had a problem with this, although I did have to drink 2 and a half pints of lemonade in one go instead.

[yg17]

Evidently none of you have ever spent any time in the UK or been a member of a sports team within a UK university. It's quite common for people to drink until they are sick and more often than they'll drink more afterwards, and do it again on numerous occasions. Most teams I've been a part of have asked Freshers to do "mucky pints" which will inevitably result in you being sick and I've seen plenty of people rendered unconscious through alcohol. However, people do this of their own free will and I really don't see the problem with it. Yes, alcohol intoxication can kill but so can cycling, running, playing golf or crossing the road.

Well, one of the issues here is that they're freshmen in college, which means they're probably around 18 years old, which in the US, is below the legal drinking age. And obviously these guys are lightweights if they got that sick, yet they were forced to drink anyways.


Anyways, I'm so glad I never got caught up in the frat BS. I went to one party my freshman year, found that all of the members were a bunch of condescending douchebags who thought they were better than everyone else because they were in a fraternity. That was enough fraternity experience to last me all 4 years.....

[jimN]

Well, one of the issues here is that they're freshmen in college, which means they're probably around 18 years old, which in the US, is below the legal drinking age. And obviously these guys are lightweights if they got that sick, yet they were forced to drink anyways.

Well in that case, this is clearly terrible. Out of curiosity how old do you have to be to own a gun in the states? Just so I can get a sense of where the priorities lie in terms of protecting your nation's health.

Of course had they had guns they could have told the pledge master where to go!

[yellow]

The original poster never said that they were forced.
Why are so many of you leaping that conclusion?

[devilot]

Evidently... The thing is, with the frat system, it takes peer pressure to a whole new level. It does. It's not just going out to a football game and getting piss drunk w/ people. It's about wanting to be accepted into a group of people who at any given time, can essentially kick you out-- deem you unworthy and say you are no longer welcome there.

It's a nasty time when people are pledging or whatnot and you can be sure that a lot of people go through a lot of unpleasantness to get in to a given house. But of course, not all frats/sororities are very extreme, especially now after all the bad publicity.

And it is more than just a place for folks to get together, hang out, "get laid," or whatever. A lot of these people become friends for life. And it's an instant bond with total strangers-- if they belonged to a different chapter or at a different time. It helps people get jobs, helps get promotions, etc. The greek system is an incredible network for connections.

[yg17]

Well in that case, this is clearly terrible. Out of curiosity how old do you have to be to own a gun in the states? Just so I can get a sense of where the priorities lie in terms of protecting your nation's health.

Of course had they had guns they could have told the pledge master where to go!

I think it varies by state and type of gun it is. Either 18 or 21.

[themadchemist]

So, just so I'm clear on this. Two guys got drunk and were sick and now everyone is up in arms about it.

Evidently none of you have ever spent any time in the UK or been a member of a sports team within a UK university. It's quite common for people to drink until they are sick and more often than they'll drink more afterwards, and do it again on numerous occasions. Most teams I've been a part of have asked Freshers to do "mucky pints" which will inevitably result in you being sick and I've seen plenty of people rendered unconscious through alcohol. However, people do this of their own free will and I really don't see the problem with it. Yes, alcohol intoxication can kill but so can cycling, running, playing golf or crossing the road.

Wow, you really sound proud of this.

[yg17]

It's free will, and they don't have to drink, it is just a ton of peer pressure. These students really want to be a part of a frat, and doing crap like this is the only way sometimes. Peer pressure and wanting to fit in take precedence over free will when it comes to things like this

[jimN]

Wow, you really sound proud of this.

No, I'm trying to ensure that we have a sense of perspective on what is really not that big a deal.

I worry about this place sometimes, we have a thread where someone gets upset because two guys voluntarily got drunk. Another where a guy wants to put on weight and is encouraged to dispense with aerobic fitness in favour of eating 4000 calories a day and start body building, and another where someone has been 'bullied' on the internet. It does make you wonder, or maybe that's just me.

[Xfujinon]

I got hazed a lot when I pledged, but most of it was fairly benign, nothing dangerous or alcohol-related, as I would flatly insist that I didn't drink. Sometimes I got ribbed for it, but the smarter guys would have the others tone it down.

This situation should be resolved within the house first, within the chapter second, and within the context of the university third. Regardless of the negative press many frats get, some of them are decent organizations with decent guys, they just tend to attract unsavory characters from time to time that spoil everything for everyone else.

Alcohol-related hazing is simply uncreative. There are plenty of other ways to fool with people, or build constructive friendships for that matter, that don't involve horrendous piles of vomiting.

Good luck in getting this resolved. More often than not, depending upon the overall composition of the chapter, the majority will realize the stupidity of the event or the oppressive behavior of a member and overrule them (or even censor them). Being "shamed" in this way is a pretty good deterrent to this kind of thing being repeated as well.

Anyhow, good luck.

[themadchemist]

No, I'm trying to ensure that we have a sense of perspective on what is really not that big a deal.

I worry about this place sometimes, we have a thread where someone gets upset because two guys voluntarily got drunk. Another where a guy wants to put on weight and is encouraged to dispense with aerobic fitness in favour of eating 4000 calories a day and start body building, and another where someone has been 'bullied' on the internet. It does make you wonder, or maybe that's just me.

Whatever you would say about the other threads, I am going to contend that is wholly irresponsible to suggest that binge drinking is A OK. It's dangerous--in the short term, it can kill you, and it certainly lands plenty of people in the hospital every day; in the long term, habitual drinking of alcohol can kill your liver. We all know this, and I think it is unfortunate that any of us would undermine the significance of coercing people to do activities that are patently, immediately, and certainly unhealthy, simply because they happen frequently enough to have become normative.

[biturbomunkie]

morally speaking, i think you should report them to your school's admin. but honestly, while i don't endorse underage drinking, alcohol is a big part of most fraternities (and perhaps college life). did you not realize that when you joined or someone really ticked you off? greek life may not be for you if you are gonna have problem w/ drinking.

personally, i don't care for greek life. it seemed fun but i was reluctant to join cos of the the peer pressure and the d-bag factor. then my scholarship came through and it required me to not be involved in any kind of greek life, lol.

[themadchemist]

morally speaking, i think you should report them to your school's admin. but honestly, while i don't endorse underage drinking, alcohol is a big part of most fraternities (and perhaps college life). did you not realize that when you joined or someone really ticked you off? greek life may not be for you if you are gonna have problem w/ drinking.

personally, i don't care for greek life. it seemed fun but i was reluctant to join cos of the the peer pressure and the d-bag factor. then my scholarship came through and it required me to not be involved in any kind of greek life, lol.

It doesn't seem like the OP is concerned with drinking per se so much as a flagrant disregard for restraint and common sense.

[biturbomunkie]

i see your point, but "common sense" is ambiguous as we are reading from one perspective.

[themadchemist]

i see your point, but "common sense" is ambiguous as we are reading from one perspective.

I'm gonna say getting an underaged person so drunk he passes out and then leaving him alone during an organized activity for which you are responsible is a pretty unequivocal lack of common sense.

[biturbomunkie]

correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe that neither of the frosh actually passed out. besides, we are going in circles here - i mention underage drinking and you bring up common sense. and when i address CS you mention UD.

as i've pointed out, drinking is part of most fraternities. morally speaking; however, the OP should take it to the school's admin.

[jimN]

Whatever you would say about the other threads, I am going to contend that is wholly irresponsible to suggest that binge drinking is A OK. It's dangerous--in the short term, it can kill you, and it certainly lands plenty of people in the hospital every day; in the long term, habitual drinking of alcohol can kill your liver. We all know this, and I think it is unfortunate that any of us would undermine the significance of coercing people to do activities that are patently, immediately, and certainly unhealthy, simply because they happen frequently enough to have become normative.

I'm not suggesting that binge drinking is "A OK" but there's a good deal worse that goes on without anyone getting too worked up about it. Yes it can kill you but so can a great many other things and, whilst the dangers of chronic alcohol abuse are well proven, this kind of experience is not going to leave these guys as alcoholic bums with cirrhotic livers in ten years time. In this instance this might be the only time in the year that these two get this drunk, who knows. They may be under-21 but they are at least 18 and adult enough to vote, fight wars and marry so I wouldn't worry too much about them.

The level of coercion involved in this case has not been established, the original poster never stated to what extent these two were forced to do it. If they undertook this experience voluntarily, albeit with a motivation to become part of a group, that really is their business as adults. I'm not saying it's right, but I am saying it happens and that perhaps a sense of proportion is required.

[themadchemist]

I'm not suggesting that binge drinking is "A OK" but there's a good deal worse that goes on without anyone getting too worked up about it. Yes it can kill you but so can a great many other things and, whilst the dangers of chronic alcohol abuse are well proven, this kind of experience is not going to leave these guys as alcoholic bums with cirrhotic livers in ten years time.

Sure, but my point is that dispensing with the concern lightly, as you did in your previous post, encourages the kind of culture where drinking a lot isn't seen as a big deal and can become more habitual.

In this instance this might be the only time in the year that these two get this drunk, who knows. They may be under-21 but they are at least 18 and adult enough to vote, fight wars and marry so I wouldn't worry too much about them.


And I agree that the drinking age should likely be lowered in the United States, but for now, it is profoundly idiotic for university-sanctioned organizations to make underaged kids drink until they are sick.


The level of coercion involved in this case has not been established, the original poster never stated to what extent these two were forced to do it. If they undertook this experience voluntarily, albeit with a motivation to become part of a group, that really is their business as adults.

While it is their decision and they can always say no, I think it is fair to criticize a system that rewards poor decision-making with the promise of social acceptance.

I'm not saying it's right, but I am saying it happens and that perhaps a sense of proportion is required.

Of course, but my contention was only that the sense of proportion that you offered was also out of whack. The dangers of walking into the street are not equivalent to the dangers of drinking to excess.

[tkepongo]

I talked to the freshmen yesterday, and it was actually a fifth each within 10 minutes. I'm pretty sure they weren't "forced" to drink it but it was our Initiation Week so they probably felt obligated to drink it to continue their initiation.

Alot of older members have talked about this since, and we're going to discuss it during our chapter meeting on. Most likely, the president will be placed under social probation and forced to prepare a presentation on alcohol abuse.

[themadchemist]

I talked to the freshmen yesterday, and it was actually a fifth each within 10 minutes. I'm pretty sure they weren't "forced" to drink it but it was our Initiation Week so they probably felt obligated to drink it to continue their initiation.

Alot of older members have talked about this since, and we're going to discuss it during our chapter meeting on. Most likely, the president will be placed under social probation and forced to prepare a presentation on alcohol abuse.

Yeah, that's quite a bit of booze in quite a short amount of time.