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MacRumors
Oct 12, 2003, 12:17 AM
As followup to a previous story (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/09/20030912011643.shtml) that reported on DVD+R/+RW support in early Panther Builds, it appears Apple is now advertising +R/+RW support on their New Features (http://www.apple.com/macosx/newfeatures/creativeprofessionals.html) page.

Apple does not appear to be advertising DVD+R in current machine specs, so it's unclear how much support Apple is providing for these new formats. Many of Apple's newer Macs, however, do contain +R/+RW capable hardware.



dho
Oct 12, 2003, 12:27 AM
I suppose this is good news.

unfortunately dvd burning isn't to much of an option on my cube anyway:(

JohnnyUtah
Oct 12, 2003, 12:58 AM
DVD+R burning works fine on my G5 w/ superdrive using Toast 5.1.4 and OS 10.2.8 (G5).

stefman
Oct 12, 2003, 12:59 AM
Does anyone know the benefits of +R/+RW as opposed to -R/-RW.

Or is this just to offer more standards?

capacity
Oct 12, 2003, 01:24 AM
Why's this on Page 2 if it's confirmed?

edit: Oh. It's a less interesting aspect of Panther. :)

arn
Oct 12, 2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by capacity
Why's this on Page 2 if it's confirmed?

edit: Oh. It's a less interesting aspect of Panther. :)

well, yeah... it's confirmation... but it's not really clear how Apple is playing this. None of their computers are advertised with +R capabilities. The text could be read as 3rd party +R support.

arn

Analog Kid
Oct 12, 2003, 03:26 AM
I'm guessing Apple won't advertise +R/+RW support on their hardware until Panther is released... At this point it's a latent capability but the hardware doesn't do it until the software supports it.

I don't think they'd consider 3rd party support as "official" until they support it themselves...

Who's the marketing genius who made DVD-R and DVD+R incompatible anyway? Could they make things any more confusing?

redAPPLE
Oct 12, 2003, 04:46 AM
Originally posted by Macrumors


Apple does not appear to be advertising DVD+R in current machine specs, so it's unclear how much support Apple is providing for these new formats. Many of Apple's newer Macs, however, do contain +R/+RW capable hardware.

does anyone know, if the new powerbooks (with superdrive) support dvd+r?

the superdrives are only dvd writables right?

BeakerAndGreg
Oct 12, 2003, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by stefman
Does anyone know the benefits of +R/+RW as opposed to -R/-RW.

Or is this just to offer more standards?

+r and +rw is supposed to offer better compatability with a wider range of consumer DVD players.

mvc
Oct 12, 2003, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by Analog Kid
Who's the marketing genius who made DVD-R and DVD+R incompatible anyway? Could they make things any more confusing?

Two major developer alliances at cross purposes IIRC. Microsoft is in one camp and Apple was originally solely in the other. Its just Beta vs VHS again. The only real loser is the consumer.:mad:

agdickinson
Oct 12, 2003, 07:41 AM
Hi

I was at local store on Friday and noticed that 10.2.8 was reporting the DVD drive to be a +-RW so I guess some of the new G5's could have a multi format drive in them.

That I believe was in a 1.8 G5 as my local store in the UK does not yet have Dual 2's.

andrew

Stike
Oct 12, 2003, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by BeakerAndGreg
+r and +rw is supposed to offer better compatability with a wider range of consumer DVD players.

Nope, in fact, the opposite is true. DVD-R plays on more generic DVD players opposed to DVD+R.

That was the reason why Apple had chosen -R :rolleyes:

Generally speaking, +R has some quality improvements to the format, which are not backwards compatible, hence Apple went with DVD-R to provide a maximum acceptance even on the oldest DVD players.

Ptpiz
Oct 12, 2003, 08:05 AM
The current mac os 10.2 supports dvd burning for dvd-r and it has GREAT compatability with a lot of DVD players. I have tested DVD+r and DVD+rw and 4 of my clients said that it didn't work for them. DVD-R is much better BUT... thus far on the mac I have not been able to burn DVD-rw, whcih realy pisses me off because; if i make a mistake on burning a DVD and have to re-burn it, I CANT ERASE THE MESSED UP DVD AND RE-WRITE ON IT! So, will panther support DVD-RW so that i can finally fix my mistakes without wasting precious DVDs??

dreamerof
Oct 12, 2003, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by Ptpiz
The current mac os 10.2 supports dvd burning for dvd-r and it has GREAT compatability with a lot of DVD players. I have tested DVD+r and DVD+rw and 4 of my clients said that it didn't work for them. DVD-R is much better BUT... thus far on the mac I have not been able to burn DVD-rw, whcih realy pisses me off because; if i make a mistake on burning a DVD and have to re-burn it, I CANT ERASE THE MESSED UP DVD AND RE-WRITE ON IT! So, will panther support DVD-RW so that i can finally fix my mistakes without wasting precious DVDs??

10.2 does support DVD-RW... I use it often.

Ptpiz
Oct 12, 2003, 08:52 AM
I know that 10.2 doesnt support it, BUT WILL PANTHER????

cubist
Oct 12, 2003, 09:08 AM
On the DVD-RW, I think you have to erase the disk with Disk Utility. Other than that, it behaves just like DVD-R (as CD-RW behaves just like CD-R).

Dho, you can get an internal superdrive for your Cube. Then you'll be able to use iDVD. You may want to beef up your RAM and possibly upgrade the CPU too. It'll cost money, though. Look at http://www.cubeowner.com.

dreamerof
Oct 12, 2003, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by Ptpiz
I know that 10.2 doesnt support it, BUT WILL PANTHER????

OS 10.2 'DOES' support DVD-RW so I would bet that Panther will too. I'd rather doubt that they would remove DVD-RW support.

lewdvig
Oct 12, 2003, 10:09 AM
...it would be nice if there was a little better support for aftermarket multiformat DVD burners.

Panther discrecording framework is substantially different for Jaguars from a hacked device file perspective.

pjkelnhofer
Oct 12, 2003, 10:50 AM
Will this effect iDVD's incompatibility with external DVD-R drives? Or will it still only work with the "Superdrive"?

MacsRgr8
Oct 12, 2003, 12:58 PM
On which hardware does it work then?
I know the Pioneer A06 supports + and - DVD R/RW... is this the drive built in the G5 as SuperDrive?

DaUlf
Oct 12, 2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by redAPPLE
does anyone know, if the new powerbooks (with superdrive) support dvd+r?


Yeah. I'd also be curious as to whether the new PBs will support this or not. Can anyone pop open the system profiler, get the actual drive name, and do a little research?

bobindashadows
Oct 12, 2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Ptpiz
I know that 10.2 doesnt support it, BUT WILL PANTHER????
This has to be one of the most failed posts I have ever seen in my life. I'm sorry, but after reading your post I now have disdain for all of humanity. Wow.

mvc
Oct 12, 2003, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by bobindashadows
I'm sorry, but after reading your post I now have disdain for all of humanity. Wow.

Hey Bob, we already knew that from your signature :D

Its a joke BTW!

WM.
Oct 12, 2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by redAPPLE
does anyone know, if the new powerbooks (with superdrive) support dvd+r?

the superdrives are only dvd writables right?
My dad's 15" AlBook reports that it has a Matsushita UJ-816. Note that all previous PowerBooks with SuperDrives had UJ-815's with a variety of firmware revisions.

A quick Google search reveals that these new PowerBooks seem to be the first time anyone's ever heard of an 816, and that no one's found any significant differences between the 815 and 816 yet (although perhaps this mysterious 816 only supports 4x CD-RW burning?).

FWIW
WM

edit: All that to say that, as far as anyone's been able to figure out, neither the 815 nor the 816 supports DVD+R[W].

jettredmont
Oct 12, 2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Analog Kid
Who's the marketing genius who made DVD-R and DVD+R incompatible anyway? Could they make things any more confusing?

That would be HP.

sonicsessions
Oct 12, 2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by MacsRgr8
On which hardware does it work then?
I know the Pioneer A06 supports + and - DVD R/RW... is this the drive built in the G5 as SuperDrive?

Yes... well, at least that's what came in my DP 2 GHz...

JBracy
Oct 12, 2003, 09:23 PM
Here's the Panther ASP info from my 17" PowerBook 1.33Ghz:

MATSHITA DVD-R UJ-816:

Manufacturer: MATSHITA
Model: MATSHITA DVD-R UJ-816
Revision: DXJ3
Serial Number:
Drive Type: CD-RW/DVD-RW
Disc Burning: Apple Supported/Shipped
Removable Media: Yes
Detachable Drive: No
Protocol: ATAPI
Unit Number: 0
Socket Type: Internal

Phil Of Mac
Oct 12, 2003, 09:33 PM
Mine is also a Matshita UJ-816. Significance unknown.

ClimbingTheLog
Oct 12, 2003, 09:40 PM
After all, the powerbook developer note specs a DVD-RW drive installed:

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G4/15inchPowerBookG4/3Input-Output/index.html

What's missing is support for the Mt. Ranier filesystem, which lets you use the DVD-/+RW like a floppy disc. Let's hope Microsoft isn't going to upstage Apple again like they did with user switching:

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/hwdev/tech/stream/DVD/dvdrw_support.mspx#XSLTsection126121120120

tizza
Oct 12, 2003, 11:25 PM
well I guess this will give me another reason to fork out more dough to upgrade to panther for my new PB - not happy, but heck I can't not do it!! ;)

soosy
Oct 13, 2003, 12:27 AM
Most superdrives have been the pioneer models (101-106), but iirc I read on macintouch 6 months or so ago that some of the newer iMacs and then G5 were coming with a sony drive (u10a or something). The Sony and pioneer 106 offered the +r/+rw compatibility.

This site has good info on the differences in formats as well as database of -r/-rw/+r/+rw drives:
http://www.dvdrhelp.com/dvd.htm

And xlr8yourmac has a drive compatibility database from reader reports. iDVD only burns to internal drives, so this can be great info for those wishing to upgrade by adding their own superdrive (for instance, support for the pioneer 106 was apparently added in 10.2.8):
http://forums.xlr8yourmac.com/drivedb/search.drivedb.lasso

freddiecable
Oct 13, 2003, 01:57 AM
Yes - DVD-r/rw offers better compatibility with DVD-players

But, as far as I know...DVD+r/rw offers the possibility to burn sessions...which is a great advantage! My superdrive - in my Dual G5 - is a Pioneer 106 which is a - & r-dvd...but I haven't tried dvd'r yet.

Originally posted by Stike
Nope, in fact, the opposite is true. DVD-R plays on more generic DVD players opposed to DVD+R.

That was the reason why Apple had chosen -R :rolleyes:

Generally speaking, +R has some quality improvements to the format, which are not backwards compatible, hence Apple went with DVD-R to provide a maximum acceptance even on the oldest DVD players.

iHack
Oct 13, 2003, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by soosy
Most superdrives have been the pioneer models (101-106), but iirc I read on macintouch 6 months or so ago that some of the newer iMacs and then G5 were coming with a sony drive (u10a or something). The Sony and pioneer 106 offered the +r/+rw compatibility.

This site has good info on the differences in formats as well as database of -r/-rw/+r/+rw drives:
http://www.dvdrhelp.com/dvd.htm

And xlr8yourmac has a drive compatibility database from reader reports. iDVD only burns to internal drives, so this can be great info for those wishing to upgrade by adding their own superdrive (for instance, support for the pioneer 106 was apparently added in 10.2.8):
http://forums.xlr8yourmac.com/drivedb/search.drivedb.lasso

I have a 1GHz 17"iMac, bought in April '03. According to the system profiler I have a sony DVD RW DW-U10A, which it reports as a CD-RW/DVD-R only. No -RW and no +R/RW. According to sony specifications it should be able to do all those. It's not just Jaguar, Toast titanium can't do the +R either. This bugs me, because I have heard of people who bought a retail version and could burn +R's with it using Toast under jaguar.
I hate to be cheated out of functionality of stuff I own. If Panther does support these formats, it's another reason to spend some 160,- , but I think apple should have included this functionality from the start...

M.

groovebuster
Oct 13, 2003, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by iHack
According to the system profiler I have a sony DVD RW DW-U10A, which it reports as a CD-RW/DVD-R only. No -RW and no +R/RW. According to sony specifications it should be able to do all those.

I can confirm this. I upgraded a Quicksilver with a U10A and all formats -/+R(W) work flawlessly (+R(W) only with Toast of course). But I only use -R(W) blanks normally, because they cost about the same and they are more compatible with generic DVD-Players. I don't feel like having a pile of both standards when there is no real benefit. I did some tests and it really seems to be true. And I also found the verbatims as the best choice for having reliable results (also on other burners). I tested some OEM/noname brands and I always had problems with them (coasters, read errors, writing speed, etc...).

groovebuster

iHack
Oct 13, 2003, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by groovebuster
I can confirm this. I upgraded a Quicksilver with a U10A and all formats -/+R(W) work flawlessly (+R(W) only with Toast of course). But I only use -R(W) blanks normally, because they cost about the same and they are more compatible with generic DVD-Players. I don't feel like having a pile of both standards when there is no real benefit. I did some tests and it really seems to be true. And I also found the verbatims as the best choice for having reliable results (also on other burners). I tested some OEM/noname brands and I always had problems with them (coasters, read errors, writing speed, etc...).

groovebuster

In the Netherlands there is a levy on blank CD's and DVD's which is supposed to go towards all the copyright holders that who's copyright I violate when I make a back-up of my data (I don't have a large collection of kazaa'd MP3's or DivX's). :mad:
I believe it goes to the music industry mostly. The levy on DVD-R is about 1, while the levy on DVD+R is 0.50, IIRC.
The reason for the difference is that supposedly it is easier to pirate content with a -R disc. In the commission that decided on the levy, the major proponent for the difference in levies was Philips.
Philips is a proponent of the DVD+R standard, so there is no conflict of interest there :rolleyes:

Anyway, I don't see any reason why Apple would disable +RW functionality in my hardware. If it's just to prevent me from being stupid enough to burn DVD+R's and complain to Apple about them not working in my DVD player, it's patronising to say the least.

M.

iHack
Oct 13, 2003, 08:24 AM
Did anyone with a 'apple-disabled' Superdrive install a Panther pre-release? And did it bring back full functionality? Or would we need a firmware fix (I can't call it an update)?

Any luck anyone?

M.

Bear
Oct 13, 2003, 11:06 AM
Blank DVD-R's bear the a DVD logo just like DVD movies you buy in the store.

DVD+R's do not have the DVD logo. DVD-R is definatly more compatible with older DVD players. Only DVD players that specifically say the support DVD+R's can play vidoe from DVD+Rs.

iEric
Oct 13, 2003, 11:11 AM
Does the PowerMac Dual 1 Ghz Mirrored Drive Doors include the Superdrive with +R capabilities?

Bear
Oct 13, 2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by iEric
Does the PowerMac Dual 1 Ghz Mirrored Drive Doors include the Superdrive with +R capabilities? If I recall correctly, the Combo Drive was the default drive for that machine. And the Super Drive was a 2x, so even if it was upgraded with a factory Super Drive, probably not on the +R ability.

G5trinity
Oct 13, 2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by MacsRgr8
On which hardware does it work then?
I know the Pioneer A06 supports + and - DVD R/RW... is this the drive built in the G5 as SuperDrive?

My dual 2 G5 has the Sony DVD RW DW-U10A and it supports all of the formats +R and -R. However in the profiler its says it only supports -R. So It think panther may just add software support for existing hardware.

<edit spelling>

Dippo
Oct 13, 2003, 07:19 PM
Cnet now has an article about Apple supporting DVD+RW

http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-5090559.html?tag=nefd_top

Personally I only use DVD+R on my PC, and I haven't had any problems using the disc with any of my DVD players, one which is several years old.

I don't really care which format wins, but it seems that DVD+R is going to win out in the end.

benixau
Oct 13, 2003, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by iEric
Does the PowerMac Dual 1 Ghz Mirrored Drive Doors include the Superdrive with +R capabilities?

No. i have an MDD generation powermac with Superdrive and i can tell you it is NOT a +R/RW drive.

Abraxsis
Oct 13, 2003, 10:54 PM
How do you find out the brand and model number for a drive through ASP? When I bring mine up (on a new 1GHz 12" PB) alll it says is CD-RW/DVD-ROM.


And BTW, -R is only better on OLD DVD players. Anything sold in the last year/year and a half is going to be able to play +R with very little problems. There are however drive compatibility between the two formats of -R (a and g). While +R will work in ALL forms of DVD-ROM drives, -R drives wont, usually causing problems between an a and a g drive. Id read up on dvdr-digest.com before making a solid discison. I myself am going with the +R/+RW in the form of an HP 200e that Im getting for 125.00 new from OfficeMax. Anyone else out there who is interested get to your local OfficeMax, if they dont have one in stock have them transfer one from a store that does. This is the 200e external drive, with both USA 2 and Firewire cap. Just a friendly headsup for those in the market.

hs2k
Oct 14, 2003, 12:21 AM
I have a Pioneer AO6U that is supported in 10.2.8 and in a developers version of 10.3...My machine is a 1.0Ghz sp mdd...

This drive is +/- and rw

Recognized by iDVD and DVD Studio pro

I use toast for burning rw and +

Another note:

The 1.8 G5 at CompUSA has a Sony +/- drive in it

Hope this helps!

:)

youngr40
Oct 14, 2003, 03:31 AM
Hello All

Do we know what machines that has shipped will support the DVD+R standard under Panther?

Or will I have to wait until Panther before I know?

I have iMac G4 1Ghz with a Superdrive.

Regards
Roland

mdntcallr
Oct 14, 2003, 11:14 AM
You are all unaware of one major problems in macs that this solves.

Most macs have been unable to play DVD+R burned video.

I have a large collection of them and have been pained that they could not be played on macs. I held off on buying a laptop until they fix this problem. So.... this is good news.

maxvamp
Oct 14, 2003, 06:21 PM
A couple of comments here that may clear up an issue or two...

First, Apple is being forced to support the plus format, as the major, top line DVD manufactures are slowly merging the two formats.
In the beginning, there was a major compatibility issue, since the minus camp was planning on the R format being the primary recording medium, and the plus camp was planning on ReWritable being their primary medium. The plus camp even went so far as to not require finalizing the medium so that PC backups could happen quicker. Well that, and added the capability to erase individual files off of a disc.

Long and short, the plus camp saw that RW discs were nowhere near as compatible as the R medium, and decided to add it to the spec ( anyone with an old HP/Phillips RW only drive out there? ). Meanwhile, the minus camp did have RW, but it was not as heavily promoted, and later added a VR mode that also does not require finalizing the disc, but greatly reduces compatibility.

Once all of this happened, the largest manufacturers of drives realized that there was very little difference between the formats, and realized that splitting the recordable format would mean death to all. After all, Sony had a real problem when they used Pioneer minus drives in the Vaio PCs, but only sold plus drives over the counter.

Now... There is at least one company selling a burner that will burn the third DVD format ( RAM ), as well as the plus and minus DVD formats. You will find LG drives also sold under IOMEGA. The RAM format is a true data centric format, and as such, will not play in any DVD video player, with maybe the exception of a few Panasonic decks. Apple first supported this format, even though it has really never been a success.

In short, none of this will be an issue in about two years. People will buy a DVD burner, and the right medium to fit their recording needs. The formats are merging.

As for Apple ( remember them ). I have seen several times on MacNN that there is a firmware patch out there that will allow Laptop superdrive owners enable the faster CD burn speeds and enable the RW capabilities of the Panasonic drive they use. Apparently, Apple disables this ability due to wanting to conform to certain specs for the laptop ( power, heat, etc. ). I would not be surprised if they have done the same to the Sony drives they use too.

Here is the link to enable RW on the laptop superdrives, but be warned that your warrantee will not cover any damage that this patch may cause.

http://superdrive.cynikal.net/

I hope all of this helps.

Max

Chisholm
Oct 15, 2003, 08:19 PM
I spoke with an A/V engineer at work this morning and he said that the industry is abandoning the minus format in favor of the plus. He said that as a result, we'll NEVER see minus go faster than 4X.

I'll believe it when I see it. Just relaying info I heard.

cheers,
john

Phil Of Mac
Oct 15, 2003, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by Chisholm
I spoke with an A/V engineer at work this morning and he said that the industry is abandoning the minus format in favor of the plus. He said that as a result, we'll NEVER see minus go faster than 4X.

I'll believe it when I see it. Just relaying info I heard.

cheers,
john

He's just a plus bigot.

soosy
Oct 15, 2003, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by Abraxsis
How do you find out the brand and model number for a drive through ASP? When I bring mine up (on a new 1GHz 12" PB) alll it says is CD-RW/DVD-ROM.


There should be a little arrow by it that expands to tell more information like manufacturer and model.


And BTW, -R is only better on OLD DVD players. Anything sold in the last year/year and a half is going to be able to play +R with very little problems. There are however drive compatibility between the two formats of -R (a and g). While +R will work in ALL forms of DVD-ROM drives, -R drives wont, usually causing problems between an a and a g drive. Id read up on dvdr-digest.com before making a solid discison. I myself am going with the +R/+RW in the form of an HP 200e that Im getting for 125.00 new from OfficeMax. Anyone else out there who is interested get to your local OfficeMax, if they dont have one in stock have them transfer one from a store that does. This is the 200e external drive, with both USA 2 and Firewire cap. Just a friendly headsup for those in the market.

From what little I've read, there isn't really a problem with -R, a and g. All the low cost consumer -R drives out are g (general use). The a drives (authoring) are expensive and require more expensive media. Regardless, this site says once burned both are readable in either drive type.
http://www.anandtech.com/guides/viewfaq.html?i=118


That said, it seems +R/RW may have some advantages... having both CAV and CLV writing which gives it an edge in storing computer data files, rather than just DVD video streams.

At any rate, if Panther can now read +R/RW discs in addition to -R/RW, it will be great.

maxvamp
Oct 16, 2003, 11:33 AM
I spoke with an A/V engineer at work this morning and he said that the industry is abandoning the minus format in favor of the plus. He said that as a result, we'll NEVER see minus go faster than 4X.

You should ask your friend when the the +RW forum joined the DVD standards body?

I doubt that your friend will be right so long as the plus group refuses to join the 'real' DVD consortium.

Max

JGowan
Oct 16, 2003, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by Ptpiz
So, will panther support DVD-RW so that i can finally fix my mistakes without wasting precious DVDs?? Well, I have been using CompUSA branded DVDs and have been having perfect results and they are CHEAP!

25DVDs = $24.99
50DVDs = $44.99

I've had the DVD burner for almost 2 years, but have rarely used it because I was afraid to use anything other than Apple DVD media, but as it has been so dang expensive, just didn't utitlize the DVD burner much at all... Now, I am burning DVDs like crazy.

benixau
Oct 17, 2003, 09:32 AM
BTW - dun no if its been mentioned but there is a notable development in the +RW camp:

+R/RW 9 - dual layer burning. This is a very bl00dy good reason to support the +R/RW standard.

Abraxsis
Oct 17, 2003, 11:38 PM
OK I now have my +R/RW drive and I burned a back DVD on a +R disc and my new Powerbook 12" running 10.2.8 mounted and read it just fine. I was even able to play a quicktime trailer from the +r disc. I also tested the same disc in an 867 15" TiBook and it also worked fine. So this leads me to believe that perhaps Panther will integrate +R/W WRITING into the OS. Just a thought.

legacyb4
Oct 18, 2003, 06:00 PM
So the Matsu****a UJ-816 does support DVD+R discs in the new Powerbooks? I assume you are using Toast to burn the discs?

Guess I'll have to give it a try...

Cheers.

Originally posted by Abraxsis
OK I now have my +R/RW drive and I burned a back DVD on a +R disc and my new Powerbook 12" running 10.2.8 mounted and read it just fine. I was even able to play a quicktime trailer from the +r disc. I also tested the same disc in an 867 15" TiBook and it also worked fine. So this leads me to believe that perhaps Panther will integrate +R/W WRITING into the OS. Just a thought.

docpsycho
Oct 23, 2003, 01:35 PM
but as the latest trend will show it will be for apple firmawre supported devices. the aftermarket get the short end of the stick again. sorry suckers....(all the i book and non superdrive equipped units out there)