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arn
Apr 23, 2002, 06:13 PM
This News.com (http://news.com.com/2100-1001-888781.html) article reports on new technology that Intel is planning on using for future processors:

The new tool uses Extreme Ultraviolet Lithography (EUV) to print extremely small circuit patterns on chips, resulting in smaller features that let chipmakers pack many more transistors onto their semiconductors. An increase in transistors basically means a corresponding leap in performance. With EUV, chipmakers could see clock speeds of 10GHz or faster--much speedier than today's quickest, 2.4GHz chips.

This new process should allow chip technology to progress at it's current rate. Of note, Motorola and IBM also have first rights over this technology:

Chipmakers Advanced Micro Devices, IBM, Infineon, Micron Technologies and Motorola are all members of the EUV LLC, a consortium that pooled resources to develop the technology jointly with the U.S. government. Members of the consortium have first rights over machines.

gerror
Apr 23, 2002, 06:20 PM
Where can I sign up for one of those? ;)

Hemingray
Apr 23, 2002, 06:27 PM
Hmm... Moto's in there, eh? Well it looks like either way, Apple may eventually benefit from this! Wouldn't THAT be nice... 10GHz..... :drool: ;)

sjs
Apr 23, 2002, 06:29 PM
Great! Another opportunity for Motorola to fall further behind.

Hope they prove me wrong. Just seems a little depressing in view of Intel's constant progress, and Moto's lack thereof...

mymemory
Apr 23, 2002, 06:29 PM
Another of those technologies that we won't see in 20 years.

blackpeter
Apr 23, 2002, 06:32 PM
It stinks, I know. But I think I'm starting to cool down. Methinks Steve is holding out for July...

jelloshotsrule
Apr 23, 2002, 06:41 PM
it just seems like apple would have to be blind to not realize they need something big and soon... so i'm hopeful, though as i've said before i'm not up for a new computer as of now. but progress would be stellar

ear2ear
Apr 23, 2002, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
it just seems like apple would have to be blind to not realize they need something big and soon...


Wasn't that the new iMac?

:cool:

I know, I know....

jelloshotsrule
Apr 23, 2002, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by ear2ear

Wasn't that the new iMac?

:cool:

I know, I know....

oh i hear ya. i mean that thing rules.

though i was home using my parents' new one this past weekend (low end model) and it was a bit laggy.. i guess i'm spoiled on the dual 800. they also have 384 ram (only) but for what they do, it shouldn't need much more...

however, apple still needs something big for the pros... especially given the long delay on tibooks and the somewhat weak upgrades on the quicksilvers.

gandalf55
Apr 23, 2002, 07:24 PM
processors be dammed... where are the advances in motherboard bus speeds?!?

sjs
Apr 23, 2002, 09:27 PM
Article states that EUV will bring speeds up to 10 ghz, allowing chipmakers to stay on track with Moore's Law.

However, the last line of the article states that chips using this technology will be commercially available in 5 years.

Today = 2.4 ghz
Two years = 5 ghz
Four years = 10 ghz.

Before this technology comes online we'll already be at 10 ghz.

Don't invest your money yet.

Beej
Apr 23, 2002, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by sjs
Article states that EUV will bring speeds up to 10 ghz, allowing chipmakers to stay on track with Moore's Law.

However, the last line of the article states that chips using this technology will be commercially available in 5 years.

Today = 2.4 ghz
Two years = 5 ghz
Four years = 10 ghz.

Before this technology comes online we'll already be at 10 ghz.

Don't invest your money yet. Yeah I noticed that too. It seems really strange. I guess in five years time they will have worked out how to extend the technology further to take speeds past 10 GHz.

Hemingray
Apr 23, 2002, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by sjs
Article states that EUV will bring speeds up to 10 ghz, allowing chipmakers to stay on track with Moore's Law.

However, the last line of the article states that chips using this technology will be commercially available in 5 years.

Today = 2.4 ghz
Two years = 5 ghz
Four years = 10 ghz.

Before this technology comes online we'll already be at 10 ghz.

Don't invest your money yet.

That's the REGULAR Moore's Law... but as we all know, Apple/Motorola has its OWN law:

Today = 1 ghz
Two years = 2 ghz
Four years = 2 ghz (Motorola goes belly-up and IBM has to start over)

Yep, the future looks bright indeed. ;)

Mr. Anderson
Apr 23, 2002, 10:05 PM
Maybe in 4 years we'll have a 2 GHz G5 when Intel puts out the 10GHz EUV chip.

All this is talk about the next generation chip. We still need to see something from Apple that can compete with the current generation. I'm not worried about it yet.

jelloshotsrule
Apr 23, 2002, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet
Maybe in 4 years we'll have a 2 GHz G5 when Intel puts out the 10GHz EUV chip.

All this is talk about the next generation chip. We still need to see something from Apple that can compete with the current generation. I'm not worried about it yet.

i hear that. let's just hope.

sjs
Apr 23, 2002, 10:56 PM
I am optimistic too. Strangely enough, I expect Apple to pull a rabbit out of its hat and somehow figure a way to outfox the wintel boys...probably by being different; not trying to "catch-up" on the same track; but an end-around.

Well, I am all out of cliches...tonight I have been frantically making erudite posts on any thread that I wasn't banned from, and lo and behold, I have reached 100!

It feels like an accomplishment, but for the life of me I cannot imagine why...good night and God Bless!

Rower_CPU
Apr 24, 2002, 01:11 AM
What gets me about the article is that it highlights Intel buying demo tools from the EUV LLC without mentioning the implications for the chipmakers who OWN the friggin' technology...Motorola included.

This one-sided, tunnel-vision ************ really pisses me off...

I'm grumpy today.:mad:

afifield107
Apr 24, 2002, 03:26 AM
I work for Intel's main supplier of Lithography tools. Not only do I know about EUV, but I have seen them. Guess what. This is a Japaneese company. They don't fall under LLC. They created and developed this tool all by themselves. Intel will be able to get this tool at anytime it becomes feesable for production. There are only a couple of companies That make lithography tools, and I can say from experience that my companies is the best. Unfortunatly, Motorolla doesn't use us because of past conflicts in business. IBM does, but IBM doesn't really make processor chips that Apple uses anymore. Last year alone Intel bought about 130 off my companys top of the line tools, pluse some newer ones not yet available to others. Priced for Intel at about $7 mill. a tool (down from 12) you can see that they wont be left behind. Trust me that Intel will get it as soon as it's ready.

Peace:rolleyes:

mcrain
Apr 24, 2002, 07:18 AM
Hey afifield107 :

Welcome to the board, and thanks for your information. Please have a thick skin and ignore any small-brained future flaming and keep us informed.

It's good to have you here.

Geert
Apr 24, 2002, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by Hemingray
Hmm... Moto's in there, eh? Well it looks like either way, Apple may eventually benefit from this! Wouldn't THAT be nice... 10GHz..... :drool: ;)

Yep, seems pretty cool, X running at 10G.
I guess that windblows be like a gocart where you put in a Porche engine, that thing will fall apart:p

Anyway, one way or the other proccesor speeds will stay close together. because as described all major procs devs are in there, so ...

NDA
Apr 24, 2002, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by afifield107
I work for Intel's main supplier of Lithography tools. Not only do I know about EUV, but I have seen them. Guess what. This is a Japaneese company. They don't fall under LLC. They created and developed this tool all by themselves. Intel will be able to get this tool at anytime it becomes feesable for production. There are only a couple of companies That make lithography tools, and I can say from experience that my companies is the best.

Hi,
for starters I am on a NDA, so certain stuff will not be disclosed.

I have some comments and additions on the quoted post, possibly I've misread certain parts of that post, but here it goes


The company that is going to deliver the EUV beta tool to intel is asml, a dutch company, www.asml.com. So no japanese here...
They are based in veldhoven, that just happens to be near my hometown, and I work in veldhoven...so do the math...


ASML bought SVG (main US based litho tools supplier of Intel last year) and asml has been developing EUV for some time now (before purchase). Asml is considered by the industry and competition to be the technology leader in this market, and they have some pretty sophisticated stuff.

Development costs for EUV are very high, development costs of a new generation of the type of litho tools like these multiplies with 10 for every new generation. A lot of companies ww are involved.

Basically two paths (wrt certain basic physics design choices involved) were defined for the next generation litho tools (the other is with a kind of X-ray beam and that poses design challenges in developing some radical other "optics" for instance).
EUV seems to be the choice, mind you we are talking about billions of dollars spent on development before even the first production wafer comes out...

in the long run Motorola, IBM, etc. will probably use these systems also, but Intel wanted to be the first probably.
EUV means also some changes in the fab, and some 'rethinking' in how service on certain parts of the scan-system can be done. If you are first (like intel) you are probably also the first to actually produce production wafers with EUV systems and that can be an advantage.

Apple will indirectly benefit from this, to remain competetive, Apple's CPU supplier must be able to design and produce devices similar to ones made by the competition (like intel), so these systems will turn up in different fabs all over the world eventually.

Expect the first production wafers made on EUV systems around 2006-2007...

:)

jayscheuerle
Apr 24, 2002, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by gandalf55
processors be dammed... where are the advances in motherboard bus speeds?!?

You do know that Moore's Law has nothing to do with processor speed, right?

jayscheuerle
Apr 24, 2002, 12:10 PM
density of silicon integrated circuits has closely followed the curve (bits per square inch) = 2^((t - 1962)) where t is time in years; that is, the amount of information storable on a given amount of silicon has roughly doubled every year since the technology was invented.

mcrain
Apr 24, 2002, 04:16 PM
Welcome NDA. Glad to have you too. Wow, two new posters in one thread, both indicating that they have information. Cool.

(Insert Frankenstein voice) Information good.

blindman858
Apr 24, 2002, 08:00 PM
Why does apple have to depend on motorolla why cant they expand their business to cpu design and development?

idkew
Apr 25, 2002, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by blindman858
Why does apple have to depend on motorolla why cant they expand their business to cpu design and development?

as much as i would like to see this, as you can see from other posts in this thread, it costs a **** load to do this business, not to mention getting started. i think i read somewhere that chip factories cost in the billions due to many different factors. unless apple wants to lose all liquidity and go into severe debt, this is not an option....


but i still want to see it. screw moto and ibm, i like a vertical apple.

afifield107
Apr 25, 2002, 01:16 AM
It is ture that on ASML's website you can read that they just sold a EUV beta tool to Intel 2 days ago. I don't want to get into a pissing contest, but you will not see very many ASML tools in a Intel (pentium producing) fab. Other companies like Motorolla have tried ASML and sent them back due to them not working correctly. ASML has been loosing ground in the Litho industry latley and is trying to make up for it. You can also read about that on their website. It would be nice to see something come out regardless of manufacturer that would bring about better chips, but this is a new technology that every litho company is striving to accomplish and it will be some time before it is seen by the public. Intel is definetly the one company with the resources to pull it off first. I have seen enough to know that.

peace out
:cool:

NDA
Apr 25, 2002, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by afifield107
It is ture that on ASML's website you can read that they just sold a EUV beta tool to Intel 2 days ago. I don't want to get into a pissing contest, but you will not see very many ASML tools in a Intel (pentium producing) fab. Other companies like Motorolla have tried ASML and sent them back due to them not working correctly. ASML has been loosing ground in the Litho industry latley and is trying to make up for it. You can also read about that on their website. It would be nice to see something come out regardless of manufacturer that would bring about better chips, but this is a new technology that every litho company is striving to accomplish and it will be some time before it is seen by the public. Intel is definetly the one company with the resources to pull it off first. I have seen enough to know that.

peace out
:cool:

ok,

hey, I am not in a pissing contest either, but I feel the need to add some remarks.

ASML has been losing some ground, just like almost every other litho manufacturer, remember the downturn last year? This industry is hit very hard by it.


Secondly, the japanese competition may be involved in their EUV project, but they ramped-up EUV development late last year, ASML is already 2 years ahead. To have a prototype of some kind running is one thing (alpha testing), to get the stuff working in a production enviroment is a complete other ballgame..

for a fab its healthy to have more suppliers of litho tools in house, if one goes out or has big problems you can always use the systems from the other supplier.

ASML systems are considered to be high-end systems, in a mixed enviroment they are frequently used to 'build' the critical layers on a wafer, the non-critical layers are useally build on lower-end systems. Low-end, mind you, is an understatement, these systems are still pretty sophisticated too.
High end systems are also used as development tools within a fab, but as always it is up to the owner of the fab how they emploi these systems in their fab.

Former SVG was the main litho tool supplier for Intel, the installed base at Intel consist afaik out of SVG and Nikon systems, now asml has taken over SVG, and in a way intel is a customer of asml.

There are some tough engineering challenges involved in designing and producing EUV systems. Certain areas of the system need to be in almost complete vacuum, if any pollution stays behind it could have a devestating effect on the system, and could cause severe downtime.
Normal air (lets say, completely dust free) is still considered as pollution....
It poses an idea of the demands on controlling the enviroment and the interfacing/exchanging with the outside world.

For example, even the building materials used in the fab for housing EUV systems have tight specifications for gas absorption and outgassing (vapourize) of the material.

The estimated cost of a single EUV system is around 40 million US$