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arn
Apr 23, 2002, 06:50 PM
cameron writes:

Look for new Ti PBs arriving next week. Top of the line will be a 800 MHz. CPU. Substantial price cuts on the 667 and 550 machines. No news on superdrive or integrated Bluetooth.

PowerPage (http://www.powerpage.org/story.lasso?newsID=9272) provides some further details:

To be released Tuesday, 30 April 2002:

* 667 MHz G4, 20 GB HDD, 256 MB RAM, DVD/CD-RW, US$2499
* 800 MHz G4, 40 GB HDD, 512 MB RAM, DVD/CD-RW, US$3199

Macmaniac
Apr 23, 2002, 06:57 PM
That sounds cool. If they do come out then this has to mean that there has to be new PowerMacs at MWNY! I hope they do come out, it would be a big boost.

Beej
Apr 23, 2002, 06:58 PM
Certainly sounds reasonable. The Power Page usually isn't too far wrong, either.

Perhaps Apple saw the horrible state we were in yesterday (while nothing was going on in the world of Apple), and they decided to cheers us up!

Or perhaps not...

PaulRod
Apr 23, 2002, 07:00 PM
Let's hope.. if this turns out to be true.. that this is only a speed bump to hold us over til July...

I've got my finger on the trigger, just waiting to splurge $3000 on a new laptop.. but I don't think this will do it...

I'm more apt to pick up a 667 at a discount... or wait til July

But what's the chance of Apple updating the Ti's again in 2.5 months??

jelloshotsrule
Apr 23, 2002, 07:02 PM
it's a start...

but as people have said, this doesn't seem like enough. unless they do something else in july, which seems weird. but who knows.. nothing but surprises with apple

barkmonster
Apr 23, 2002, 07:05 PM
When the 1Ghz G4 came out there way a low powered version available at exactly the same time from motorola, rated at up to 800Mhz, it didn't take inside knowledge to know at the time, just a quick look on the PPC page on the motorola site. why it's taken this long to release new TiBooks with the faster CPUs is beyond me, unless they wanted to clear most of their remaining stocks of the current models at full price before new models appeared.

Still it's good to see Apple are slowly bringing the portable line up to speed with the entry level desktop models.

TyleRomeo
Apr 23, 2002, 07:10 PM
hey do the new TiBooks have a faster system bus or just the plain old 133?

sjs
Apr 23, 2002, 07:12 PM
I don't see how this would be a good deal. PowerPage shows the new 667 with 256 RAM and 20 gig HD at $2499. Currently at the Apple Store the 550 with same RAM and HD is $2299.
So this means a bump from 550 to 667 for an extra $200. If that's true, it's fine, but its not a price drop.

Maybe that helps cover the higher costs of lcds and RAM.

Falleron
Apr 23, 2002, 07:13 PM
Sounds like the old bus. No DDRAM either (at least until next revision)!!

eyelikeart
Apr 23, 2002, 07:22 PM
hmm...maybe I will be putting mine up for sale soon???

guess we'll find out what's going on within the next week...he he he ;)

chibianh
Apr 23, 2002, 07:33 PM
updated powerbook at the end of April and again in July?? would they do that? If they do, I'd rather wait another 2 months.. Any word on what the graphics chip might be? I'm more interested in that..

sjs
Apr 23, 2002, 07:43 PM
actually, if they drop the current 550 by $100, that means they are charging an extra $300 for the bump to 667, given that other components remain unchanged.

for $300 i'd wait...

jelloshotsrule
Apr 23, 2002, 07:46 PM
it seems silly to me that the 550 would only go down 100 and have the 667 (new) at 300 more... unless (as others have said) there will be some more specs to accompany it... graphics card, etc...

IndyGopher
Apr 23, 2002, 07:52 PM
Strange math you folks do...

I keep hearing the figure "2 months" and I keep checking my calendar to see which month got the axe.. from the end of April to the end of July is still 3 months on all my calendars.. hope I didn't get ripped off at the stationery store. That's a whole season... a quarter of a year. ALSO, since several of our fine folks here seem to forget, each and every time, that if there's anything significantly different announced in July (end of July, mind you) it will take 6 weeks to ship. Just like always Which means, of course, it will be more like 5 months (6 would not be a surprise) between April 30th and anything announced at July's MacWorld.

iH8Quark
Apr 23, 2002, 08:09 PM
:o

http://www.dell.com/us/en/gen/topics/segtopic_inspiron8200.htm

The Inspiron 8200 gets you up and running with the fastest Mobile Intel Pentium 4 processors on the market today - up to 1.7 GHz - while the companion Intel 845MP chipset ratchets the Processor Support Bus (PSB) speed from its previous 133 MHz to a lightning 400 MHz. The system memory is Double Data Rate (DDR); the clock speed of the new memory modules is 266 MHz, twice the speed of the PC133 DIMMs used on earlier Inspiron platforms.


Not to mention the screen on the Dell is WAY higher in resolution.

Swing and a miss.

chibianh
Apr 23, 2002, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by IndyGopher
Strange math you folks do...

I keep hearing the figure "2 months" and I keep checking my calendar to see which month got the axe.. from the end of April to the end of July is still 3 months on all my calendars..


Actually, I've been the only one that said that.. and yes, you are right.. sorry... look what public education has done to me... 19 and I still can't add/subtract correctly.. or count months for that matter... oh well, makes ME wonder why they let me into this college... lol

Anyway, I just hope there the 800mhz is the 7445(?) and with a better graphics chip than current tibooks.. I got my hammer ready to bust open a HUGE piggy bank!!

TyleRomeo
Apr 23, 2002, 08:46 PM
ok 800MHZ G4 with a 133 bus blows away a 1.7 P4

dongmin
Apr 23, 2002, 08:57 PM
IF they announce new TiBooks next week, no way will they announce another update in three months. So stop dreaming.

sjs
Apr 23, 2002, 09:16 PM
This isn't a NEW TiBook. Its a speed bump with a more than commensurate premium for the extra few megahertz.

As someone said, the 800 processor has been available for some time already. This is just a crumb to hold us over.

Less charitably, it may just be a way to sneak in what amounts to a price increase without calling it that.

sjs
Apr 23, 2002, 09:18 PM
When they calculated the 1.7 ghz speed,were they including an allowance for the time it takes to reboot after your PC crashes?

Mr. Anderson
Apr 23, 2002, 10:02 PM
With WWDC in 2 weeks, what purpose does it serve to put out a new update to the TiPB one week in advance? Wouldn't it have been better for Jobs to use the announcement in his keynote?

Maybe there is a lot more in store at WWDC, but my guess is that the rumor is just a week off and we'll see the new TiPB then.

TyleRomeo
Apr 23, 2002, 10:04 PM
the 800 is definately just here to hold us over. it takes some of the pressure of apple's shoulders for a little while now they can make another breakthough this july or wait till september to give us a 933 powerbook.

Vilacr
Apr 23, 2002, 10:18 PM
If we only get a speed bump to 800 mhz we are far behind the peecee world. We get no graphics cards or ddr ram and still more than half behind in the mhz game. Apple needs to give us more. I am whinning for I truly know the TiPb 550 is about as fast as a PIII 650 mhz dell latitude in everyday tasks( not all of us do photoshop). So where does that leave a TiPb 800....far behind a peecee running at 1.7 ghz,64 meg graphics card and ddr ram.

sjs
Apr 23, 2002, 10:25 PM
ok i've got it figured out.

Over time the price of chips goes down, for the same speed, due to improving yields in manufacturing.

So, if a 550 tibook with 20 gig hd and 256 ram has been $2299 for several months now, we should at this time see the same configuration but with 667 at the same price.

But that configuration will be $2499 if the rumor is right. That is a price increase!

So what is happening here is that this is the equivalent of the iMac price increase, but instead of an announcement its disguised as a "new" tiBook.

Come on guys, thanks for the speed bump, but lets don't call this a new machine or a price decrease.

G4scott
Apr 23, 2002, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by iH8Quark
:o

http://www.dell.com/us/en/gen/topics/segtopic_inspiron8200.htm

The Inspiron 8200 gets you up and running with the fastest Mobile Intel Pentium 4 processors on the market today - up to 1.7 GHz - while the companion Intel 845MP chipset ratchets the Processor Support Bus (PSB) speed from its previous 133 MHz to a lightning 400 MHz. The system memory is Double Data Rate (DDR); the clock speed of the new memory modules is 266 MHz, twice the speed of the PC133 DIMMs used on earlier Inspiron platforms.


Not to mention the screen on the Dell is WAY higher in resolution.

Swing and a miss.

and we are supposed to care about this because...???

Be happy with a Mac. You may have an indy 500 car, but you can't drive it on the streets where you NEED it. With a Mac, you can have the power you need and still be productive, instead of working with that 'other' platform...

eric_n_dfw
Apr 23, 2002, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by iH8Quark
:o

http://www.dell.com/us/en/gen/topics/segtopic_inspiron8200.htm

The Inspiron 8200 gets you up and running with the fastest Mobile Intel Pentium 4 processors on the market today - up to 1.7 GHz - while the companion Intel 845MP chipset ratchets the Processor Support Bus (PSB) speed from its previous 133 MHz to a lightning 400 MHz. The system memory is Double Data Rate (DDR); the clock speed of the new memory modules is 266 MHz, twice the speed of the PC133 DIMMs used on earlier Inspiron platforms.


Not to mention the screen on the Dell is WAY higher in resolution.

Swing and a miss.
Yes - Dell misses.

I cannot run Final Cut Pro on that machine, or Mac OS X. So, it sucks.

Go away troll.

cb911
Apr 23, 2002, 11:22 PM
i've been waiting for the new TiBooks since the start of the year. now i'm just wondering if it is worth getting a 800MHz or the new 667MHz model. if the current 667MHz TiBooks are selling cheaper, this must mean that the new 667's are alot better. i'm guessing that they'll have a faster system bus and hopefully a 32MB video card.
i'm also not too sure if this update will only be a tempory thing until July. will Apple be releasing even faster TiBooks at MWNY?

JD!
Apr 23, 2002, 11:35 PM
OK...please....any or all of you....especially Dell boy. go to the Dell site. Configure to the same or close to TiBook configuration. see the diff here??? About 600 bucks more for a machine that is less stable and ugly as sin? If you max out the Ti, to the ultimate config, it's still less! Hello!?!? PC weenies!?!?! Please...stop comparing rotten fruit to Apples. Pun intended. Sheesh...will they ever learn :rolleyes:

Backtothemac
Apr 23, 2002, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by Vilacr
If we only get a speed bump to 800 mhz we are far behind the peecee world. We get no graphics cards or ddr ram and still more than half behind in the mhz game. Apple needs to give us more. I am whinning for I truly know the TiPb 550 is about as fast as a PIII 650 mhz dell latitude in everyday tasks( not all of us do photoshop). So where does that leave a TiPb 800....far behind a peecee running at 1.7 ghz,64 meg graphics card and ddr ram.

..........Start Rant............
NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. Damn, how many times do we have to make the point to newbies. Look, the Ti 550 is a hell of a lot faster than the PIII 650. Rip a CD, or encode video on them, or do anything that is processor intensive and you will see a massive difference. Also, the Ti 800 would actually outrun the PIV 1.7. The reason. It's easy. The PIV really only has a 100 MHZ bus. It uses (according to Intel) a force multiplier. In other words. Has anyone ever wondered why a 1.6 GHZ Athlon will outrun a 2.4 GHZ PIV? The Athlon really has a 266 MHZ Bus. Now, that said. With Altivec, the G4 is far superior than the Pentium. Also don't give me the "nothing uses altivec" argument because it is not true. The vast majority of apps, including X itself is altivec aware.

Also, the biggest point, is I don't care if PC's were running 10 GHZ right now. That would mean what? They can open word in .3 seconds compared to 2 seconds? Big deal. I use Mac's because of what they don't do for me, and that is restrict me from doing the work that is vital to my financial survival. I am not blind, but I do understand math, and I do understand what is stable, efficient, attractive, and successful, and no I am not talking about Brooke Burke. It is OS X
............Stop Rant.........

Vilacr
Apr 24, 2002, 12:16 AM
Have you ever used a P4 1.7 ghz..now 1.8 ghz? If you have then you would know there is no way a G4 667 or the soon to be 800 mhz can out perform it. What about ddr ram and 64 meg graphics cards and the 400 mhz bus. Regardless of how the 400 mhz bus is achieved it is faster than the 133mhz apple is giving us. Ripping cd's isn't something I do but cad and design is...a pc rules in this area for there isn't much mac software here. I love my Tipb but apple needs to give us more. They are falling to far behind. Maybe not for a graphics artist but for the rest of us it is.

cmoney
Apr 24, 2002, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by Vilacr
Have you ever used a P4 1.7 ghz..now 1.8 ghz? If you have then you would know there is no way a G4 667 or the soon to be 800 mhz can out perform it. What about ddr ram and 64 meg graphics cards and the 400 mhz bus. Regardless of how the 400 mhz bus is achieved it is faster than the 133mhz apple is giving us. Ripping cd's isn't something I do but cad and design is...a pc rules in this area for there isn't much mac software here. I love my Tipb but apple needs to give us more. They are falling to far behind. Maybe not for a graphics artist but for the rest of us it is.

I wholeheartedly agree. Apple has lost its performance edge. OS X has a lot to do with that. Under OS X, Macs feel like molasses. Either Apple needs to get 10.2 2x faster than 10.1 or they need to spread the GHz goodness around the 4 product quadrants.

After all, what happened to the argument that the G3/G4 ran faster while also consuming less power and thus producing less heat. Yeah, now we have sorry-ass G4 667 TiBooks that need the fan just as much as my 900 MHz Duron laptop. Motorola really is screwing Apple up. And Apple ain't helping people's perception of speed by making OS X slow.

cmoney
Apr 24, 2002, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by Backtothemac


..........Start Rant............
NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. Damn, how many times do we have to make the point to newbies. Look, the Ti 550 is a hell of a lot faster than the PIII 650. Rip a CD, or encode video on them, or do anything that is processor intensive and you will see a massive difference. Also, the Ti 800 would actually outrun the PIV 1.7. The reason. It's easy. The PIV really only has a 100 MHZ bus. It uses (according to Intel) a force multiplier. In other words. Has anyone ever wondered why a 1.6 GHZ Athlon will outrun a 2.4 GHZ PIV? The Athlon really has a 266 MHZ Bus. Now, that said. With Altivec, the G4 is far superior than the Pentium. Also don't give me the "nothing uses altivec" argument because it is not true. The vast majority of apps, including X itself is altivec aware.


Yeah and not everyone spends their whole day ripping CDs or encoding video. Me, I write web applications. I once thought that having JBuilder run on OS X would be incredible, instead, I've come to realize that it's way too slow to be usable on any of my Macs. It's not just JBuilder, it's basically all the tools I use on a daily basis. I tried LiveMotion on an 800MHz G4 and the interface is so gawd-awful slow that movies preview at about 2-5 frames/second.

For personal use, I once tried Ableton's cool Live sequencer and the interface couldn't keep up on my 500MHz G4 Cube which I use for music (since it's silent). And I've already switched to my PC for serious websurfing since OS X can't keep up with me anymore.

Sorry bud, Altivec is nice, but it's not a panacea to OS X's slow interface.

Xapplimatic
Apr 24, 2002, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by sjs
...
But that configuration will be $2499 if the rumor is right. That is a price increase!

So what is happening here is that this is the equivalent of the iMac price increase, but instead of an announcement its disguised as a "new" tiBook.

Come on guys, thanks for the speed bump, but lets don't call this a new machine or a price decrease.

Let's not get worked up yet.. it's just a RUMOR.. and like all rumors, doesn't have all the details. Nothing is mentioned about an improved screen, graphics chip, Firewire 2, faster bus, ADC port, or DDR, built in blue tooth, or any of these things.. yet we know Apple has been working on all of these and at least two of them are likely to be included in the new high-end 800 MHz model (assuming it is actually 800, which IS likely as well based on what Motorola has to offer right now).

Xapplimatic
Apr 24, 2002, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by cmoney
...After all, what happened to the argument that the G3/G4 ran faster while also consuming less power and thus producing less heat. Yeah, now we have sorry-ass G4 667 TiBooks that need the fan just as much as my 900 MHz Duron laptop. Motorola really is screwing Apple up. And Apple ain't helping people's perception of speed by making OS X slow.

Nothing happened to the argument.. It's not an argument. It's a fact.. Let's see here...

G4 Apollo 800.. 15 Watts.
AMD Athlon ..... 55 Watts!

Does that even sound comparable? Nah.. do any windows laptops get the battery life of a TiBook? The vast majority aren't even close. Why? Cause their stupid processors suck more than twice the power! Pentium and AMD power sucking is outpacing the increases in battery tech. "Polymer" batteries can hack it you say? Nobody uses it in laptops yet. Too expensive. And even so, nomatter what the same level of batter will still go that much farther lifewise on a G4 than a P4.

Grokgod
Apr 24, 2002, 01:15 AM
This new speed bump, if its true, is a slap in the face to the entire Mac community!

800 from 667 with a price increase, i can only reply F@#$ you, jobs~!

These units run like molasses on a cold day.
Jesus, my screen redraws on my imac are NOT slow, they dont happen at all!

Yes , that reads NOT at all, untill I force a scroll or close and reopen a window.

Any one that is comparing the speed of a 800 powerbook to a wintel machine and is saying that they equal in speed is completey DAFT!

Of course no one wants to use the freakin Wintel OS garbage.

There has got to be something really weird going on inthe Apple camp.

I can see them all huddled around a picture of Jobs thinking about what to do next.

First guy " Mmmm what can we do to really screw this whole situation up"
Second Witless bastard "I know lets ship the iMacs late and lose all those potential sales to PCee users"
First " Nah, we already did that!"
Second " Lets raise prices, on all the iMacs that we havent sold, that will piss them off "
First " Did that!"
Second " Lets stall on improving the tech on all our units till they look like pretty stones "
First " Well they ARE already pretty. But lets add insult to injury by moving along at a snails pace and increase prices anyway, just to add to the confusion.
Second " yea, that will really freak them out, should we wake Jobs up?"
First " Nah, let him sleep, he's so cute that way. We can wake him when its time to oust him again!

mmmdreg
Apr 24, 2002, 01:38 AM
How about we get these speedbumped TiBooks next week just to keep us happy..then at MWNY, we see both laptops with integrated bluetooth and such, with the TiBook done over...Maybe the Powermacs boosted a bit...the at MWSF, we see the G5 and a fatter iMac...sound oright?

fallt
Apr 24, 2002, 02:53 AM
Dear All,

Reading the posts with interest. If they do speed-bump I'll be one very unhappy long-time Apple user.

I bought a Ti 667 in November, it had a faulty logic board so needed to be returned to be fixed. The fixed Ti returned and promptly crashed again. I phoned Apple to find out if they knew what the original fault was and they, "weren't sure". Apple offered a replacement. Great I thought...

The replacement Ti arrived three weeks later. Yippee. I opened it and... the screen was faulty, everything that should have been white was, wait for it, magenta.

!@#$

I phoned Apple right away and, embarrassed, they apologised and organised another replacement. Great I thought...

The replacement to replace the replacement to replace the original machine (confused yet?) arrived two weeks later. Yippee. I opened it and... the CD/DVD Combo Drive was faulty. I couldn't even install the System software as the drive crashed when the first CD went in.

!@#$ x2

I phoned Apple right away and, slightly more embarrassed, they apologised and organised another replacement. Great I thought...

The replacement to replace the replacement to replace the replacement to replace the original machine (now I'm confused, and I'm living it) arrived two weeks later. Yippee. I opened it and... the modem port was faulty. Every time the modem cable is unplugged the machine crashes spectacularly.

!@#$ x3

Does this sound bizarre? Does this sound like problematic Quality Assurance? Does this sound like I just made this whole story up? I didn't, everything's available online to look at including movie clips of the spectacular crashing modem port which, as a designer, I have to say produces some wonderful looking screens.

Click here for details:

http://www.fallt.com/gallery/

Best,

Christopher @ Fallt | chris@fallt.com

Matthé
Apr 24, 2002, 05:21 AM
am I the only one missing an ADC output besides the faster bus and ddr ram?

Falleron
Apr 24, 2002, 05:23 AM
Just a quick note. Intel has increased their mobile processors up to 1.8Ghz. Come on Apple, get thos TiBooks up to 1Ghz!

emdezet
Apr 24, 2002, 06:58 AM
If it wasn't so sad, I would almost have laughed my ass off about the replacement-replacement story. I experienced a similar case with an iMac 350 indigo which had its analog-board replaced three times. When the last one turned out to be defective as well, Apple started offering refurbished 500MHz iMacs. When two of them showed the exact same problem as the original unit upon arrival, my friend got REALLY MAD WITH Apple on the phone and got.... an iBook500CD, which he is happy as a clam with.

So I'll say:
Make a good PowerBook with whatever friggin clockspeed, give it a nice GPU, 30/48GB instead of pissy 20, Bluetooth, Airport4 etc. but keep the price down. That machine I will buy and sell my iBook500DVD.
However, if Apple should really pull the stunt to release the next PowerBook with major improvements in summer - ƒ¨ç∆ ¥ø¨!!!!

mcrain
Apr 24, 2002, 07:03 AM
I'll just keep waiting patiently until I see a powerbook with a faster bus, ddr ram, faster processor, built in bluetooth, firewire 2, (maybe I'd even want usb2?), possibly a graphics card?, Apollos, and a fast hard drive standard.

If I can get 3 or 4 of those in the next revision, I'm plunking my money down because the machines as is are pretty fast, very stable, and awfully nice.

As OSX is better optimized, that can only get better, rather than worse. In addition, as battery tech improves, and the Apollos require less energy, the useful life should improve.

I don't put much weight on the rumor, but I can always hope. To everyone who is bashing the mac in this thread, all I can say is I'm typing this on a PC that crashed twice this morning already. The first time on bootup. How the hell can a computer crash on bootup? I mean, there's nothing on, why would it crash?

I'll trade a little performance for stability and user interface, but I agree with all of you, I'd prefer more performance so I don't have to make that trade-off.

mcrain
Apr 24, 2002, 07:06 AM
You know, my only beef with apple is their problem with stocking stores, and having stores in the first place.

The solution to the replacement, replacement, replacement story is to have lots of stores that offer apple products that have apples on hand to sell you. Then, you open up your box and have the onsite techs turn it on and give it a whirl. If it doesn't work, grab another box. Simple.

Mail order is so painfully slow. I want instant gratification. I want to walk in empty handed, and walk out with the computer I just creamed my pants over.

mcrain
Apr 24, 2002, 07:13 AM
First, sorry for the multiple posts, but I'm waiting to buy a powerbook, so I'm hot under the coller.

Anyway, would everyone still be all worked up and angry about only a bump to 800 mhz if the chip that was running at that speed was a G5?

Just curious.

mmmdreg
Apr 24, 2002, 07:25 AM
Well making it a G5 should give it the capabilities of having a higher Mhz rating right? I'll be happy as long as our processors are not less than half the speed of Intels, which means powerbooks at at least 900mhz...but anyway, we're losing the race badly right now, with speeds going further back every few moments...Apple needs to do something big andto do that, we can only hope that Motorola can meet our demands...

TyleRomeo
Apr 24, 2002, 08:29 AM
ok people do you remember last summer's macworld when the 867 G4 Quicksilvers came out. at the time Intel's fastest P4 was at 1.7-1.8. We had the whole issue over the MHZ myth (7 stage pipeline compared to Wintel's 20, blah blah blah) so we could agree that the quicksilver's were faster then the 1.7 P4's.

Now this spring we have the same senario, but in labtops. If this 800MHZ powerbook comes out it will be matched up with a 1.7-1.8 PC labtop. Once again Apple has not lost a step. and not to mention that the chip inside the PC labtops is a less powerful chip then the desktop one.

867MHZ G4 Desktop 800MHZ G4 Labtop
________________ = _______________

1.7 GHZ P4 Desktop 1.7 GHZ P4 M Labtop

Any questions?

Backtothemac
Apr 24, 2002, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by cmoney


Yeah and not everyone spends their whole day ripping CDs or encoding video. Me, I write web applications. I once thought that having JBuilder run on OS X would be incredible, instead, I've come to realize that it's way too slow to be usable on any of my Macs. It's not just JBuilder, it's basically all the tools I use on a daily basis. I tried LiveMotion on an 800MHz G4 and the interface is so gawd-awful slow that movies preview at about 2-5 frames/second.

For personal use, I once tried Ableton's cool Live sequencer and the interface couldn't keep up on my 500MHz G4 Cube which I use for music (since it's silent). And I've already switched to my PC for serious websurfing since OS X can't keep up with me anymore.

Sorry bud, Altivec is nice, but it's not a panacea to OS X's slow interface.


.....Zipper sound on a flame retardant suit.
OK. Total specs please. What 128 megs of ram on each. Await, I am sorry, 64 mb on the cube right. Also to your post before this. I don't know what you really do work on (probably an iMac 233), but OS X is not God awful slow on anything that is "modern". That is to say that an iBook 600, iMac G3 600 and up procs. I have an iMac 600 SE with a gig of ram, and it will blow the doors off of every PC I have a work. You see at work we have PC, and my iBook 600 with 384 megs of ram that will outperform the 1GHZ PIII's when doing photoshop. The PIII isn't a PIV you say? Well, my boss has a nice new IBM 1.6GHZ PIV with 256 megs of ram. He is anti Mac. Brought my iMac up here for a little photoshop bakeoff.... Yea, I have 768megs of more memory but he has 1,000 MHZ on me. His pride and joy, just did beat my little iMac. I mean just by a bit to. So, dont tell me that the dual 1GHZ won't stomp the A$$ off of a PIV. I am not stupid. I look at real world. And you know what? If the Mac doesn't do what you want, then go hug a PC like any other clone.

I don't give a crap about GHZ at all. Would you rather have a V-12 motor that pushes your car from 0-60 in 6.5 seconds, or a V-6 motor that will get it there in 5.3? Same logic hear. Bigger is not always better.

Also, you fail to address one point. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT SPEED THEY HAVE, THEY STILL RUN *****DOZE!

barkmonster
Apr 24, 2002, 08:43 AM
If you look at the New Motorola CPU Chart (http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/taxonomy.jsp?nodeId=03M943030450467M98653) you'll see that they have retested all thier CPUs with the Dhrystone 2.1.

When the 1Ghz G4 tower came out it had MIPS rating in various standards so the new PPC 7455 was rated at 2.28 Instructions Per Clock Cycle, compared with the 1.83 Instructions Per Clock Cycle of the older PPC 7450, 7400 & PPC 750 (G3). It gave the impression that the new G4s were a lot faster on a per MHZ basis than the older models. Also they had a low powered CPU @ 800Mhz that could have been used in a TiBook, something I mentioned in my post yesturday.

Now I've looked at the cpu table again and it seems the low powered line of G4s is at the same speed as the desktop CPUs so we could expect to see 1Ghz TiBooks. The PPC7455 in the desktop G4s uses 20.3 watts minimum and 30 watts maximum, compared to that the PPC7445 uses only 10.3 watts minimum and a very impressive 14.5 watts maximum. We should be looking at higher battery life, less fan noise and less heat on TiBooks with these new chips. We also know we have 1Ghz TiBooks to look forward to for definate.

The only negative thing I've seen is that they've now retested all their CPUs with new Dhystone 2.1 test, The PPC7445 and 7455 handle 2.31 Instructions Per Clock Cycle while the older chips can handle 2.42 Instructions Per Clock Cycle. I can't see how such a small decrease in speed is going to effect anything but if you'd read their info before they updated the test results, you would have thought the new G4s were over 24% faster than the old model in realworld terms.

Rocketman
Apr 24, 2002, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by barkmonster
When the 1Ghz G4 came out there way a low powered version available at exactly the same time from motorola, rated at up to 800Mhz, it didn't take inside knowledge to know at the time, just a quick look on the PPC page on the motorola site. why it's taken this long to release new TiBooks with the faster CPUs is beyond me, unless they wanted to clear most of their remaining stocks of the current models at full price before new models appeared.

Still it's good to see Apple are slowly bringing the portable line up to speed with the entry level desktop models.

It takes MONTHS to buy and test enough chips for a production run. It only takes a couple of weeks to assemble them into finished products. So be aware they need to make THOUSANDS of these things.

This is a welcome speed bump for a fine machine which sadly might not have as long a life as iMac#1.

In December 01 the G5 was sampling. Therefore we MIGHT see a G5 CPU as early as Sep 02.

Rocketman

Geert
Apr 24, 2002, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by fallt
Dear All,

Reading the posts with interest. If they do speed-bump I'll be one very unhappy long-time Apple user.

I bought a Ti 667 in November, it had a faulty logic board so needed to be returned to be fixed. The fixed Ti returned and promptly crashed again. I phoned Apple to find out if they knew what the original fault was and they, "weren't sure". Apple offered a replacement. Great I thought...

The replacement Ti arrived three weeks later. Yippee. I opened it and... the screen was faulty, everything that should have been white was, wait for it, magenta.

!@#$

I phoned Apple right away and, embarrassed, they apologised and organised another replacement. Great I thought...

The replacement to replace the replacement to replace the original machine (confused yet?) arrived two weeks later. Yippee. I opened it and... the CD/DVD Combo Drive was faulty. I couldn't even install the System software as the drive crashed when the first CD went in.

!@#$ x2

I phoned Apple right away and, slightly more embarrassed, they apologised and organised another replacement. Great I thought...

The replacement to replace the replacement to replace the replacement to replace the original machine (now I'm confused, and I'm living it) arrived two weeks later. Yippee. I opened it and... the modem port was faulty. Every time the modem cable is unplugged the machine crashes spectacularly.

!@#$ x3

Does this sound bizarre? Does this sound like problematic Quality Assurance? Does this sound like I just made this whole story up? I didn't, everything's available online to look at including movie clips of the spectacular crashing modem port which, as a designer, I have to say produces some wonderful looking screens.

Click here for details:

http://www.fallt.com/gallery/

Best,

Christopher @ Fallt | chris@fallt.com

I think that you're an excpetion fallt.
Sorry to say that, but I think this is really an exception, and sorry it had to happen with you.
Maybe you did something to piss them off:p
I know, I should not be laughing, but best to see it positive.
did you already received a new Tibook? Then I would go for the 800 for the price of the one you bought;)

buffsldr
Apr 24, 2002, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by Vilacr
If we only get a speed bump to 800 mhz we are far behind the peecee world. We get no graphics cards or ddr ram and still more than half behind in the mhz game. Apple needs to give us more. I am whinning for I truly know the TiPb 550 is about as fast as a PIII 650 mhz dell latitude in everyday tasks( not all of us do photoshop). So where does that leave a TiPb 800....far behind a peecee running at 1.7 ghz,64 meg graphics card and ddr ram.

Please explain. What do you mean "far behind". I wonder why you choose specs as a measure of success.

My brother in law races drag cars as an amateur. His car has a 615 Cubic Inch Big Block Chevrolet ,Aluminum Merlin block, and Big Chief Heads. All told he puts out about 1100 horsepower.

I guess he just leaves import sedan far behind in just about every measureable category. Oh wait, he also spends 10-20 hours a week between races fixing his car.

I have to chuckle when peeps start getting all excited about being left behind. Apple is making a profit, the iApps rock, the iPod is the best MP3 player (in my opinion), and there are competetive (not the best, but competetive) products in both consumer and professional arenas. If you work/study in a field where Apple really cant keep up, then I guess you are not their target market, and you better get a different computer.

Many of us like to sell our peers on macs, and yes on paper macs suck so that is an obstacle....for about 5seconds. There are plenty of people out there that are looking for a better computing experience than what wintel has given them. They upgrade every 1-2 years hoping this time things will be different. Show them an apple, not a spreadsheet comparing specs.

Mr. Anderson
Apr 24, 2002, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by buffsldr

Please explain. What do you mean "far behind". I wonder why you choose specs as a measure of success.

You make some valid points, but the whole crux of the matter is that there are better and proven ways of making things faster - system bus, ddr ram, etc. and Apple isn't using then yet. By keeping with the current mobo design they save money, they're trying to push this as far as they go before they have to 'retool' their whole assembly process and start over from scratch.

I have to agree that if Apple started making the newer system it would be great and its over due. But I think at some point they're also waiting for something, so maybe it will be worth the wait. And I'm sticking to my prediction that they won't be putting out new TiPBs a week before WWDC, that if they do come out Jobs will announce it in the KeyNote - anyone feel like betting?

Rocketman
Apr 24, 2002, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Vilacr
Have you ever used a P4 1.7 ghz..now 1.8 ghz? If you have then you would know there is no way a G4 667 or the soon to be 800 mhz can out perform it. What about ddr ram and 64 meg graphics cards and the 400 mhz bus. Regardless of how the 400 mhz bus is achieved it is faster than the 133mhz apple is giving us. Ripping cd's isn't something I do but cad and design is...a pc rules in this area for there isn't much mac software here. I love my Tipb but apple needs to give us more. They are falling to far behind. Maybe not for a graphics artist but for the rest of us it is.

The history of the Mac platform is no different from others. Certain key applications become available and drive sales.

What the mac needs is that huge segment of business that runs Autocad, solid modeling and engineering applications. They are sufficiently in the graphics and printing arena as to be compatible and require the system resources Apple has or is about to deliver in the short future. My advise is simple. Get key aplications on OSX and bring hoards of users with them.

Rocketman.

drastik
Apr 24, 2002, 09:14 AM
I know that a lot of usesers here are in it for the speed and the prestige. Believe me, being able to stick it to the wintel shmoes on every front would be great.

But I think it comes down to somehting else. As long as they run at a decent speed, I'll still use a mac. Personaly I couldn't care less what the PC world thinks, besides wanting apple to take more of the market. I use macs because the are usefull, don't get in the way of my work, and more elegant than any beige box in the world ( I guess I should say black and silver boxes now).

As a side note, my neighbor runs an IT outsourcing firm hire in Nashville. They use wintel machines, UNIX, and he just hired a Linux guy. All of this to say, his home network is pretty nicely set up, a couple of pIVs and a PII for a file server.

After spending around a grand on firewire ports and a new video card, he couldn't get his PC to work with his $1500 dv cam. He brought it over to my place because he thought it might be a problem with the camera. I cant easily get to the back of my tower because my workspace is small and I have a lot of crap pile in there, so we hooked it to my old G3 Firebook. Plug it in, open iMovie, bang, camera works fine.

I felt like showing off a little, so I ripped his tape to VCD and gave him some lower rez clips to email out. To make a long story short, he came home with an iMac two days later.

Macs appeal to a certian type of person, and if ease of use is what you crave, along with a solid OS the oppertunity to tweak the code without getting shutout by fatal errors, X is the way to go. Screw the stats, if my Firebook can do allright on X almost any machine made in the last three years can. Soempeople want to run it on a n unsupported machine, I'm sory, but the tech is old. Can't use XP on a 486 either.

------------------------------------------------------
Be careful, XP just emailed Bill to tell him you're on a mac site.

Rocketman
Apr 24, 2002, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by mcrain
First, sorry for the multiple posts, but I'm waiting to buy a powerbook, so I'm hot under the coller.

Anyway, would everyone still be all worked up and angry about only a bump to 800 mhz if the chip that was running at that speed was a G5?

Just curious.

If you ignore the incessant whining of rumor sites and look only at the price benefit of the rumored 667 vs the rumored 800 TiPB the 800 seems to have a slight cost benefit edge. I cannot remember the last time this was the case for any powerbook where the top of the line did not have a silly price premium.

Rocketman

serpicolugnut
Apr 24, 2002, 09:40 AM
Look, you can blindly bash someone comparing the PB to a Dell, but the Dell post has it's merit. Keep in mind I own a PBG4/500, and generally am happy with it. However, the Dell offers quite a bit...

The nVidia Quadro2 graphics chip BLOWS away the Mobile Radeon in the PB, not just with double the VRAM, but also with a much more powerful chipset. Try running Lightwave on a Powerbook and you'll know what I mean.

Also, the Dell has DDR RAM, which Apple is long over due to implement.

Someone posted that the Dell can't run FCP, and that's true. But that's about the only advantage it doesn't have.

Apple's pro laptop sales have really dipped over the last 6 months, and it's really easy to see why. People paying for a PRO laptop want PROFESSIONAL features. Apple needs to get it through their heads that battery life isn't the main focus of these users. Put in the fastest chip (or chips) you can, outfit it with the best graphics chip you can (nVidia), and finally, fix the damn problem the TiBooks have with Airport range.

I really want to replace my PBG4/500, but if rumors are to be believed, it looks like it will be quite some time until I can.

cmoney
Apr 24, 2002, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by Backtothemac



.....Zipper sound on a flame retardant suit.
OK. Total specs please. What 128 megs of ram on each. Await, I am sorry, 64 mb on the cube right. Also to your post before this. I don't know what you really do work on (probably an iMac 233), but OS X is not God awful slow on anything that is "modern". That is to say that an iBook 600, iMac G3 600 and up procs. I have an iMac 600 SE with a gig of ram, and it will blow the doors off of every PC I have a work. You see at work we have PC, and my iBook 600 with 384 megs of ram that will outperform the 1GHZ PIII's when doing photoshop. The PIII isn't a PIV you say? Well, my boss has a nice new IBM 1.6GHZ PIV with 256 megs of ram. He is anti Mac. Brought my iMac up here for a little photoshop bakeoff.... Yea, I have 768megs of more memory but he has 1,000 MHZ on me. His pride and joy, just did beat my little iMac. I mean just by a bit to. So, dont tell me that the dual 1GHZ won't stomp the A$$ off of a PIV. I am not stupid. I look at real world. And you know what? If the Mac doesn't do what you want, then go hug a PC like any other clone.

I don't give a crap about GHZ at all. Would you rather have a V-12 motor that pushes your car from 0-60 in 6.5 seconds, or a V-6 motor that will get it there in 5.3? Same logic hear. Bigger is not always better.

Also, you fail to address one point. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT SPEED THEY HAVE, THEY STILL RUN *****DOZE!

huh? 64MB on the cube? try 512MB.

*****doze may suck but once I'm in Photoshop, once I'm in JBuilder, once I'm in (insert cross-platform application here), it doesn't matter. My PC desktop at work may not have the uptime of an OS X machine but it is at 5 days or so which means I run for the whole week without crashing.

Sure a dual 1GHz machine is fast. It's plenty fast. But I can buy 2-3 PCs for that price. If that means I can equip 3 people at work with a PC instead one graphic designer with the top Mac then so be it.

Besides, I was complaining about PowerBook speeds under OS X, not desktops.

cmoney
Apr 24, 2002, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by Xapplimatic


Nothing happened to the argument.. It's not an argument. It's a fact.. Let's see here...

G4 Apollo 800.. 15 Watts.
AMD Athlon ..... 55 Watts!

Does that even sound comparable? Nah.. do any windows laptops get the battery life of a TiBook? The vast majority aren't even close. Why? Cause their stupid processors suck more than twice the power! Pentium and AMD power sucking is outpacing the increases in battery tech. "Polymer" batteries can hack it you say? Nobody uses it in laptops yet. Too expensive. And even so, nomatter what the same level of batter will still go that much farther lifewise on a G4 than a P4.

Is that for the mobile versions of PC CPUs? And OS X sure blows the argument though since its power management is near non-existant right now. My iBook used to get 3 hours under OS 9. Now I'm overjoyed if I reach the 2 hour mark. Same goes for my PowerBook G3 and a friend's TiBook. My 900MHz Duron easily matches battery times of my iBook and PBG3 when they run under OS X.

cmoney
Apr 24, 2002, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Matthé
am I the only one missing an ADC output besides the faster bus and ddr ram?

Well as long as it doesn't replace the VGA port I wouldn't mind having the ADC port. Sure would make the Cinema Display much more tempting, especially since my ADC (developer, not connector) discount gets me a $1999 Cinema Display. I just don't wanna have to carry an extra adapter just to use projectors and such. If it's just a simple cable though (like the one the iBook uses to connect to VGA), I'm all for it.

iGav
Apr 24, 2002, 09:55 AM
well a 800Mhz TiBook in't going to make me want to upgrade frm my 500Mhz one, I'm waiting for Apple to atleast double the speed before I consider buying a new one, but then again I'm not due to buy until the start of next year...... :D

I'm reckon what dukestreet said at the top of the page is probably pretty accurate......

800Mhz really isn't much of an increase, there are many other features Apple could install to really increase performance....... they're just biding there time that's all!!

mcrain
Apr 24, 2002, 09:56 AM
Anyone know how long a submitted news story takes to get put on this site? I submitted this morning a story germaine to this thread...

Backtothemac
Apr 24, 2002, 10:06 AM
Hey cmoney.
Quick question. A dual G4 1GHZ with the Titanium GeForce 4 Ti is 3249.00

Here are some specs for a Dell.

Dell Dimension 8200 Series: * Dimension® 8200 Series, Pentium® 4 Processor at 2.4GHz w/ 512K L2 *
Memory: * 512MB PC800 RDRAM *
Keyboard: * Dell® Enhanced Performance USB Keyboard *
Monitors: * Video Ready w/o Monitor *
Video Card: * New 128MB DDR NVIDIA GeForce4™ Ti 4600 Graphics Card
Hard Drive: * 80GB Ultra ATA/100 Hard Drive *
Floppy Drive: * 3.5 in Floppy Drive *
Operating System: * Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition *
Network Card: * 10/100 PCI Fast Ethernet NIC *
Modem: * 56K Telephony Modem for Windows® XP *
DVD-ROM or CD-ROM Drive: * New DVD+RW/ CD-RW Combo Drive *
Sound Card: * SB Live! Digital Sound Card *
Speakers: * Harman Kardon HK-395 Speakers
Bundled Software: * Microsoft® Works Suite 2002 with Money 2002 Standard *
Digital Music: * Dell Jukebox powered by MusicMatch * J
Digital Photography: * Dell Picture Studio,Image Expert 2000 Standard Edition *
Limited Warranty, Services and Support Options: * 1Yr Ltd. Warranty- 1Yr At-Home Service + 1Yr Phone Support *
Dual Monitor Support: * DVI-VGA Adapter to connect 2 CRT Monitors to 128 GeForce4 Ti4600 Video Card *

The Price on the Dell..... 2,308.00
Now, remember, no iMovie, or iDVD, or iPhoto, or iTunes. Also keep in mind that it runs Windoze. Also no gigabit ethernet. Slow a$$ PCI slots. X86 architecture. Also, 2308 for the Dell and 3249 for the Mac. Well, I got a degree in Political Science not math, but how would you buy 2 or 3 of the Dells for the price of the Mac?

Nuff said.

Backtothemac
Apr 24, 2002, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by mcrain
Anyone know how long a submitted news story takes to get put on this site? I submitted this morning a story germaine to this thread...

Well, don't tease. What was it about? :p

Mr. Anderson
Apr 24, 2002, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by mcrain
Anyone know how long a submitted news story takes to get put on this site? I submitted this morning a story germaine to this thread...

Sometimes you'll never see it. Depends on whether the moderators think its worthy. If you really want something posted, your best bet is to just start a new thread in the catagory underwhich you think it belongs, it'll get some action (posts). Even then it could be upgraded to an article for the main page, its happened to me several times.

Go and post it here or start another thread, but link it via a post on this thread so we know where it is.

mcrain
Apr 24, 2002, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by Backtothemac


Well, don't tease. What was it about? :p

Sorry, I'll start a new thread... GIve me just a sec.

(edit)

http://www.macrumors.com/forums/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=4171

arn
Apr 24, 2002, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by mcrain
Anyone know how long a submitted news story takes to get put on this site? I submitted this morning a story germaine to this thread...

The time for a submission posting is variable... depends on when we can check it.

arn

cmoney
Apr 24, 2002, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
Hey cmoney.
Quick question. A dual G4 1GHZ with the Titanium GeForce 4 Ti is 3249.00

Here are some specs for a Dell.

Dell Dimension 8200 Series: * Dimension® 8200 Series, Pentium® 4 Processor at 2.4GHz w/ 512K L2 *
Memory: * 512MB PC800 RDRAM *
Keyboard: * Dell® Enhanced Performance USB Keyboard *
Monitors: * Video Ready w/o Monitor *
Video Card: * New 128MB DDR NVIDIA GeForce4™ Ti 4600 Graphics Card
Hard Drive: * 80GB Ultra ATA/100 Hard Drive *
Floppy Drive: * 3.5 in Floppy Drive *
Operating System: * Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition *
Network Card: * 10/100 PCI Fast Ethernet NIC *
Modem: * 56K Telephony Modem for Windows® XP *
DVD-ROM or CD-ROM Drive: * New DVD+RW/ CD-RW Combo Drive *
Sound Card: * SB Live! Digital Sound Card *
Speakers: * Harman Kardon HK-395 Speakers
Bundled Software: * Microsoft® Works Suite 2002 with Money 2002 Standard *
Digital Music: * Dell Jukebox powered by MusicMatch * J
Digital Photography: * Dell Picture Studio,Image Expert 2000 Standard Edition *
Limited Warranty, Services and Support Options: * 1Yr Ltd. Warranty- 1Yr At-Home Service + 1Yr Phone Support *
Dual Monitor Support: * DVI-VGA Adapter to connect 2 CRT Monitors to 128 GeForce4 Ti4600 Video Card *

The Price on the Dell..... 2,308.00
Now, remember, no iMovie, or iDVD, or iPhoto, or iTunes. Also keep in mind that it runs Windoze. Also no gigabit ethernet. Slow a$$ PCI slots. X86 architecture. Also, 2308 for the Dell and 3249 for the Mac. Well, I got a degree in Political Science not math, but how would you buy 2 or 3 of the Dells for the price of the Mac?

Nuff said.

Well let's see. I would like to equip 3 of my employees with a PC. One does mostly Photoshop work. One does mostly Flash work. One does mostly Java servlet work.

Dell Dimension 4400 P4 1.6GHz, 128MB DDR Ram, 20 GB HD, 24x CDRW, 16MB ATI video card. $511 if I buy today. $599-$649 if I wait. Upgrade ram to 512MB and add ethernet card. Total: $730. Extra video card, say an ATI Radeon 7500 with 64MB ram, $139.

Total: $869 X 3 = $2607. Now I have 3 decent computers which allow 3 employees to get their work done.

Same config for a PowerMac: $1749 ($1599+$150 for 512MB Ram). I'll throw you a bone and upgrade the Dell hard drive to 40GB to match the Mac so add $120 for the three Dell computers.

Dell total: $2727
Apple total: $5247

Slow a$$ PCI slots. Yeah because there are so many PCI cards that use the 64bit slots in PowerMacs.

Gigabit ethernet? I can't afford a Gigabit ethernet switch so I can't use it anyway. But if I bought the Dells, perhaps I could.

X86 architecture is irrelevant if it doesn't hinder me from doing work.

I'd have a hard time arguing that the Macs are worth the extra $2500 for the work we do. There are no Mac-only apps in web application development which would sell the Macs. And having apps like Toad running on the PCs sells them for that. And don't forget, the Dells have 1 year ONSITE warranty.

iMacs aren't an option since they limit screen resolution.

BTW, back to my original point, if you notice, the Dell total for 3 computers is $2727. That's 3 computers for the price of one top of the line PowerMac. They're not the top of the line Dells, but then I never claimed them to be.

PatrickStarfish
Apr 24, 2002, 12:03 PM
If Apple make the jump to SuperDrive, my decision is easy. No more desktop/tower for me. I know all the arguments against it in the PB, but the SuperDrive is a key piece of hardware when it comes to the overall Apple stategy. Yes, the PW would have to be thicker and a little heavier, but it could use more rigidity. My brother has a TiPB and he has problems all the time with it crashing and not booting because its too flexible and thin on its base. Anyway, this would make the PB the perfect computer, granted no expansion though. If they don't add the SuperDrive, then maybe I'll get one of these:
http://www.theapplecollection.com/get_picture.php?counter=SpongeMacRippedPants1600x12.jpg&link=http://www.theapplecollection.com/desktop/large_2001a/SpongeMacRippedPants1600x12.jpg

sbsp

Backtothemac
Apr 24, 2002, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by cmoney

Well let's see. I would like to equip 3 of my employees with a PC. One does mostly Photoshop work. One does mostly Flash work. One does mostly Java servlet work.
Dell Dimension 4400 P4 1.6GHz, 128MB DDR Ram, 20 GB HD, 24x CDRW, 16MB ATI video card. $511 if I buy today. $599-$649 if I wait. Upgrade ram to 512MB and add ethernet card. Total: $730. Extra video card, say an ATI Radeon 7500 with 64MB ram, $139.
Total: $869 X 3 = $2607. Now I have 3 decent computers which allow 3 employees to get their work done.
Same config for a PowerMac: $1749 ($1599+$150 for 512MB Ram). I'll throw you a bone and upgrade the Dell hard drive to 40GB to match the Mac so add $120 for the three Dell computers.
Dell total: $2727
Apple total: $5247


Um, I will focus only on the totally insane. I will not get into the PCI slots, gigabit, or the X86 *****techture.

Don't know where you get your math, but the dell that you are looking at as quoted below....
Dell Dimension 4400: Pentium® 4 Processor at 1.6 GHz *
Memory: * 512MB DDR SDRAM *
Keyboard: * Dell® Enhanced Performance USB Keyboard *
Monitors: * Video Ready w/o Monitor *
Video Cards: * 64MB NVIDIA GeForce2 MX 4X AGP Graphics Card with TV-Out *
Hard Drive: * 40GB Ultra ATA/100 Hard Drive *
Floppy Drive: * 3.5 in Floppy Drive *
Operating System: * Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition
Mouse: * Logitech® Optical USB Mouse *
Network Card: * 10/100 PCI Fast Ethernet NIC *
Modem: * 56K PCI Data Fax Modem for Windows
CD or DVD Drive: * 48x Max Variable CD-ROM *
Sound Card: * Integrated Audio *
Speakers: * New Harman Kardon® HK-206 Speakers
Limited Warranty, Services and Support Options: * 1Yr Ltd. Warranty- 1Yr At-Home Service + 1Yr Phone Support *
Secondary CD or DVD Drive: * 24x/10x/40x CD-RW

According to Dell this beast of a system is 909.00 + 100 dollars shipping = 1009.00. Now if you really want to compair Apples and Oranges, upgrade that piece to Win XP Pro which would make it 1109.00. But we will just say 1009.00

Now PowerMac G4 is 1599 + the 150 for the ram to 512. Also, hey, the iMac is 1399! That would rock. I mean since you don't quote monitors in your Dells, just think. 300 bucks more than the hell, and you can have a kick A$$ iMac with a screen size = to a 17 inch CRT. Now that is a deal! Lets see three of the dells would be 3027. Three iMacs would be 4197. Don't know about everyone else, but I am going with the iMacs. Also the G4's would be 5247. Again, I would go with the Macs.

Oh, here is a little info for you too....

On average, the cost to develop and support Windows applications is 50% higher per dollar of revenue than the cost to develop for Macintosh.
(Software and Information Industry Association)
* Mac users are 50% more accurate and 44% more productive than Wintel users.
(A.D. Little *report)

Here is the link to the page...
http://www.13idol.com/mac/macfacts.html

The bottom line is that if you are a PC person, you will always use PC's, and if that works for you that is fine. I will continue to be productive on my Mac's and laugh at the stress that Windows causes in the lives of millions of people.

whawwaaaaaahahahahahahahhaa

cmoney
Apr 24, 2002, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
Now PowerMac G4 is 1599 + the 150 for the ram to 512. Also, hey, the iMac is 1399! That would rock. I mean since you don't quote monitors in your Dells, just think. 300 bucks more than the hell, and you can have a kick A$$ iMac with a screen size = to a 17 inch CRT. Now that is a deal! Lets see three of the dells would be 3027. Three iMacs would be 4197. Don't know about everyone else, but I am going with the iMacs. Also the G4's would be 5247. Again, I would go with the Macs.


Here is the link to the page...
http://www.13idol.com/mac/macfacts.html

The bottom line is that if you are a PC person, you will always use PC's, and if that works for you that is fine. I will continue to be productive on my Mac's and laugh at the stress that Windows causes in the lives of millions of people.

whawwaaaaaahahahahahahahhaa

iMac's not an option because of limited video resolution. 1024x768 is not usable for programming or photoshop or flash work. OS X makes it all worse. The Dells I priced had 2 video cards. Add in the price for 2 17" CRTs and now you have approximately the cost of a low end iMac but with 2x the screen resolution and it's faster to boot.

BTW the point is moot now since we just ordered the 3 Dells that I specced out. Price was $750/machine and that includes 1 year On Site warranty. We probably won't buy the second video card since we've got 21" monitors too.

And now we have enough money leftover to buy licenses for the software we'll need.

We wanna go Mac for the office, and two of us have Macs at home. But Macs just don't fit into the budget when the cheapest pro model is twice as expensive as a PC.

PatrickStarfish
Apr 24, 2002, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by cmoney


...BTW the point is moot now since we just ordered the 3 Dells that I specced out. Price was $750/machine and that includes 1 year On Site warranty. We probably won't buy the second video card since we've got 21" monitors too...

Dude, you're gettin a Dell...
Dude, you're gettin a Dell...
Dude, you're gettin a Dell...
Dude, you're gettin a Dell...
Dude, you're gettin a Dell...
Dude, there's crappy parts in your Dell...
Dude, the operating system crashing your Dell...
Dude, onsite support is here for the 50th time for your Dell...
Dude, there's no inovation in your Dell...
Dude, you're gettin a Dell.

Vilacr
Apr 24, 2002, 02:42 PM
For the price per feature you can't beat the price of the dells. The iapps are overrated...they do fine but there are better programs out there. Apple should give them away free since they charge through the nose for slower machines. With the extra money saved from buying a more up to date pc you can buy the extra software and still come out cheaper. Apple needs to give us up to date systems. The TiPb is behind and needs to catch up now.

Backtothemac
Apr 24, 2002, 02:51 PM
cmoney,
I don't know who you are talking to at Dell, but maybe they need to do a little research into their product.

Stand back everyone as I am about to yell.

YOU CAN'T ORDER A DELL WITH 2 VIDEO CARDS IN IT. Why, because they don't sell PCI video cards in their configurations, which means unless there is a new mobo that supports 2 AGP cards, so I hope that they are the liars here.

Also,
Sorry you don't see the benifit to uptime, and things like that. Also, when you get your dell, take it to a Mac store, and do a little photoshop bakeoff. You will regret your purchase big time. Sorry that you're getting a Hell, I mean Dell.

Rower_CPU
Apr 24, 2002, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by cmoney
We wanna go Mac for the office, and two of us have Macs at home. But Macs just don't fit into the budget when the cheapest pro model is twice as expensive as a PC.

That's very short-sighted of you.
Come back in a year, when the warranty is up, and let us know how your budget is doing.

Macs last longer and hold their value better than PCs.

Jookbox
Apr 24, 2002, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by TyleRomeo
ok 800MHZ G4 with a 133 bus blows away a 1.7 P4

lol, were you born this ignorant or did it just come gradually?

... lol.

drastik
Apr 24, 2002, 05:40 PM
I live in Nashville, Dell is here out near the airport. This from a friends girlfriend who sells the infernal machines...

"Support for Dell after purchase is almost non-existent, onsite service has a radius to service centers issue. Everything is changing at Dell and we are gong to offer only packaged PCs soon, no built to order. People call me in sales everyday because they can't get through to tech support."

Later she told me about sending one family in Virgina five different PCs because the drive kept coming broken out of the box.

TypeR389
Apr 24, 2002, 05:48 PM
I am not going to continue the comparisons between the dells and the macs, they both have points, and I doubt anyone is going to convince the 'other' side they are wrong here.

I bought a refurb dell about 9 months ago, dual PIII 933, quaddro2 64MB 512MB PC800 RDRAM, 2 18gb 10k ultra scsi3 drives, a DVD and CD-RW and then the normal pc junk, but I only paid 2k for it. P4's Megahurts values are crazy, but the dual 933 system is actually pretty smokin, I think the brand new P4 are finally as fast as my machine, I am waiting to get a G4, my mac is too old to do a good comparison, but I am thinking that my pc would do pretty well in a photoshop test, and other than a fan that died on the dell, which they had a replacement to me within 16 hours, I have been happy. Too bad it doesn't run OS-X, I am happy with the hardware, too bad I hate windoze :(

jefhatfield
Apr 24, 2002, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by TypeR389
I am not going to continue the comparisons between the dells and the macs, they both have points, and I doubt anyone is going to convince the 'other' side they are wrong here.

I bought a refurb dell about 9 months ago, dual PIII 933, quaddro2 64MB 512MB PC800 RDRAM, 2 18gb 10k ultra scsi3 drives, a DVD and CD-RW and then the normal pc junk, but I only paid 2k for it. P4's Megahurts values are crazy, but the dual 933 system is actually pretty smokin, I think the brand new P4 are finally as fast as my machine, I am waiting to get a G4, my mac is too old to do a good comparison, but I am thinking that my pc would do pretty well in a photoshop test, and other than a fan that died on the dell, which they had a replacement to me within 16 hours, I have been happy. Too bad it doesn't run OS-X, I am happy with the hardware, too bad I hate windoze :(

do you really mean rdram or sdram?

just a minor point...and how fast is your ram?

jef
pc techie

dr.bob
Apr 24, 2002, 07:14 PM
Ok, I'm going to buy a laptop in the next couple of months, and I'm almost definitely going to buy a powerbook. Why? In a word, vanity. The TiBook is a computer as I think computers should be: A good processor architecture, a good operating system architecture, and a damn sexy case. If I were to design a computer, I hope it would look like the TiBook. And I'll spend $1000 over the price of an equivelent PC laptop to have it.

So I'll buy a mac. But I'll only be buying one. For all other purposes I'll buy PCs. Why? Because they're **** cheap. When I need another desktop machine: PC. When I need several compute machines: PCs.

I use DV and firewire on the PC, and it works fine. Likewise pretty much everything else - I have no reason not to buy PCs.

porovaara
Apr 24, 2002, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac

YOU CAN'T ORDER A DELL WITH 2 VIDEO CARDS IN IT. Why, because they don't sell PCI video cards in their configurations, which means unless there is a new mobo that supports 2 AGP cards, so I hope that they are the liars here.


uh you do know that most higher end PeeCee video cards have dual out capabilities or come with dual out, right?

please people flame based on merits not on "weaknesses"

ie, the mac has a "real complete user experience:, whereas the pc feels "cobbled together" is an exmaple

Rower_CPU
Apr 24, 2002, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by jefhatfield


do you really mean rdram or sdram?

just a minor point...and how fast is your ram?

jef
pc techie

PC800 is RDRAM...better known as Rambus

SPG
Apr 24, 2002, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by dr.bob


I use DV and firewire on the PC, and it works fine. Likewise pretty much everything else - I have no reason not to buy PCs.

Hey Doc, How did you get your firewire and DV working? Which card for firewire and what software?
I am not kidding, but I have yet to see a single PC that was able to do it consistently. I get a lot of calls from video guys (semi-pro) who are having tech problems and the mac guys I can always help, but the PC guys wind up eventually giving up or milking their systems just long enough to get the job done through all sorts of round about ways.
If you can tell me how you got it working I can pass that info along and hopefully help them out (if they haven't given up on PC DV editing).
Most common problems I hear are firewire cards burning out and no longer recognizing anything, and then just inability to keep up the I/O without dropping a lot of frames.
Thanks for any help Doc,
-SPG

TypeR389
Apr 24, 2002, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by jefhatfield


do you really mean rdram or sdram?

just a minor point...and how fast is your ram?

jef
pc techie

I mean RDRAM, or rambus, and 800 is currently the pretty fast in either world. It is good memory, and smokingly fast, it just was REALLY expensive for the longest time. At the time I bought my system, the RAM alone cost over a grand for brand name memory. and saying that is is only like 10-15% faster than the SDRAM of the day, but three times the cost, nobody outside the professional workstation wanted to pay the premium, but the SMP chipset for Intel dictated it's use, which is an interesting counter point from where apple is. in the PC world at the time, we had good performance, but nobody could afford it. I wonder if that is better than having slightly slower, albeit affordable technology? Thank god this is no longer the case, Rambus is still a little more expensive, but much close in line to DDR SDRAM in price now speed wise is quite similar for the higher end of both lines...

BTW, I have also added a FW card to the machine since then and use an extranal 120GB WD drive (8MB cache, 911 chipset) and have dumped video from a friends sony DV cam(not sure the model exactly). It was actually one of the few real PNP things I have seen work on my XP machine, plug the FW cable in, computer churns for 15 secs, viola and little window comes up and says I found a camera, what do you want to do? It wanted to use windows movie maker, which is a total pile of excrement, but after installed ULead videostudio, was up and running. I could totally tell Apple had something to do with the design hardware spec ;) And this is the not all that fast interface on my SB Audigy card (sweet cheap almost pro sound card)

Rower_CPU
Apr 24, 2002, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by TypeR389
I mean RDRAM, or rambus, and 800 is currently the pretty fast in either world. It is good memory, and smokingly fast, it just was REALLY expensive for the longest time. At the time I bought my system, the RAM alone cost over a grand for brand name memory. and saying that is is only like 10-15% faster than the SDRAM of the day, but three times the cost, nobody outside the professional workstation wanted to pay the premium, but the SMP chipset for Intel dictated it's use, which is an interesting counter point from where apple is. in the PC world at the time, we had good performance, but nobody could afford it. I wonder if that is better than having slightly slower, albeit affordable technology? Thank god this is no longer the case, Rambus is still a little more expensive, but much close in line to DDR SDRAM in price now speed wise is quite similar for the higher end of both lines...

RDRAM is dead. Intel is going with DDR now. The high price and legal quibbling that Rambus engaged in killed their chip business.

Backtothemac
Apr 24, 2002, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by porovaara


uh you do know that most higher end PeeCee video cards have dual out capabilities or come with dual out, right?

please people flame based on merits not on "weaknesses"

ie, the mac has a "real complete user experience:, whereas the pc feels "cobbled together" is an exmaple

Um, see below quote from cmoney.

"The Dells I priced had 2 video cards. Add in the price for 2 17" CRTs and now you have approximately the cost of a low end iMac but with 2x the screen resolution and it's faster to boot."

Now you can understand why I responded the way I did. Also, no offense, but na, nevermind, it isn't worth it. Aw, to heck with it. Please read the posts before accusing of flame bait. If not, you may find yourself suiting up for a little toasting.
:p

TypeR389
Apr 24, 2002, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU


RDRAM is dead. Intel is going with DDR now. The high price and legal quibbling that Rambus engaged in killed their chip business.

I don't think Rambus is dead, they had way more problems and legal issues then they should have, but now that the price is comparable, I have no problem paying a reasonable hit for performance. RDRAM has some advantages in architecture over DDR SDRAM, and the inverse is true as well, just different technology, and I am a firm beliver in the fact the competition is good for us, so let rambus and DDR SDRAM fight it out, giving us faster cheaper memory!

Rower_CPU
Apr 24, 2002, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by TypeR389
I don't think Rambus is dead, they had way more problems and legal issues then they should have, but now that the price is comparable, I have no problem paying a reasonable hit for performance. RDRAM has some advantages in architecture over DDR SDRAM, and the inverse is true as well, just different technology, and I am a firm beliver in the fact the competition is good for us, so let rambus and DDR SDRAM fight it out, giving us faster cheaper memory!

I'd be very surprised to RDRAM scratch it's way back into the picture. DDR has become standard on video chipsets and on CPU cache. By the time it manages to resurrect itself we will be beyond the current technology, leaving it, once again, in the dust.

pimentoLoaf
Apr 24, 2002, 09:30 PM
I'd rather wait for Apple to bring out a 3-GHz tiMac, so I can then replace my 500-MHz iBook AND my aging 366-MHz Toshiba PC.

AppleWorks would really rock on that machine, you know? :eek:

Backtothemac
Apr 24, 2002, 09:55 PM
Well said well spoken pimento. ;)

jefhatfield
Apr 24, 2002, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU


RDRAM is dead. Intel is going with DDR now. The high price and legal quibbling that Rambus engaged in killed their chip business.

so it was rambus...wow, that is really cool

p4 is going ddr though, so something bad did happen somewhere...too bad:mad:

TypeR389
Apr 25, 2002, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU


I'd be very surprised to RDRAM scratch it's way back into the picture. DDR has become standard on video chipsets and on CPU cache. By the time it manages to resurrect itself we will be beyond the current technology, leaving it, once again, in the dust.

Alot if not most of the high end PC based workstation market is still going with RDRAM. I agree that RDRAM will not likely make it back into consumer level machines, but for people looking for every little tweak, RDRAM still has a niche. check out http://www.rambus.com/company/press/pressreleases/2002/020225a.html. This stuff is smokin! Well hopefully not really, but 4.2 GB/sec max theoretical throughput...

Pelorus
Apr 25, 2002, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by cmoney
We wanna go Mac for the office, and two of us have Macs at home. But Macs just don't fit into the budget when the cheapest pro model is twice as expensive as a PC.

Depends what you want. A friend recently bought a 2nd hand TiBook 500 and an 2nd hand Apple 1710 display with adapter. He now boasts huge screen resolutions when working in his studio and also has the option of working away from the desk.

PC desktops are cheap and yes you can get very competitive prices that make Macs look very expensive but I can't say that any PC laptops out there are worth the money whereas Apple's laptops all represent good value. A 667 Mgz G4 TiBook more than beats a 1.4 GHz PC laptop even though the latter has a better graphics card - in terms of sheer performance. I'm not talking about focussed benchmarks but about a whole gamut of things.

Even without the benefit of Altivec and with a lacklustre graphics card a 400 MHz Pismo was beating 1.1 Ghz laptops in real world usage. Things like watching a movie off the disk while FTPing huge DV files was not possible on the PC laptops without some serious jumping. To make things better we switched the FTP process to a 1.6 GHz desktop machine and still we found XP jumping all over the place during the FTP. We ended up watching the movie trailers on the Pismo while it was doing the FTP.

All anecdotal I know. Also the truth.

mrhuge73
Apr 25, 2002, 11:05 AM
I'm thinking that apple wants to clear out some of their stock in the lower end powerbooks, maybe get rid of the 550 all together. So if they can bump up the clock speed to 800 and lower the price of the 667, more people will take them up on that offer. I think that this would let them release the NEW LINE of PBs at MWNY. I cant wait to see what will be coming out.

SPG
Apr 25, 2002, 02:21 PM
When FCP3 came out there was a litlle bit of a bruhaha over in Cupertino about the fact that one of their newly intro'ed machines couldn't support realtime RT, that machine being the 550 tiBook. It was considered to be a lack of communication between developpment teams that allowed the 550 to be just underpowered or under bussed I believe and the word was that even though the 550 was new it was slated to be replaced asap.

Bradcoe
Apr 25, 2002, 02:40 PM
667 and 800Mhz seem to be fine for a speed bump. However, pricing the 800Mhz G4 at $3199, when the 800Mhz G4 iMac is $1899 seems rather rediculous. I know, I know, for numerous reasons notebooks/laptops are much more costly, but come on, the chip itself is not THAT expensive, and assuming there are no other changes except for the processor speed increase and HD going from 30gig to 40gig (still 4200rpm, only the 48gig is 5400rpm, and I'm not sure how much of a difference this makes/or of necessity it is since i've only used a 4200rpm notebook drive), it's quite the price hike.
Yes, RAM and LCD's have gone up, and it was already suggested that apple is just upping the cost AND speed to make it not appear as though they are just tacking on $ like they did with the iMac.
If the price is going to be this high ($3199) then apple needs a lot more improvements to make it viable for the Pros who think nothing of $3200 by adding/improving hardware, or drop that top-end price.
BTW, this is my frist post, although I've been reading these boards for quite some time.

SPG
Apr 25, 2002, 02:49 PM
yeah, Bradcoe i agree that a price hike wouldn't be too welcome. The only justification I could give is that the top end machine would have some serious new features, one or more of the following...new MOBO design with a big speed increase, DDR, firewire2, better screen, superdrive (SPG ducks immediately), or something else we haven't even dreamed of. If the technology jumps than yes a price hike could be justified, but if it's the same old same old with a speed bump, then eBay may be the place to shop.

Rower_CPU
Apr 25, 2002, 02:55 PM
On the other hand, a price hike might fall in line with the overall industry trend of rising prices due to higher costs (at least, acoording to SJ).

It's a better PR move to hike the price with a new/upgraded product, than an old one that's been out for a while.

SPG
Apr 25, 2002, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
On the other hand, a price hike might fall in line with the overall industry trend of rising prices due to higher costs (at least, acoording to SJ).

It's a better PR move to hike the price with a new/upgraded product, than an old one that's been out for a while.
That justifies it, but it doesn't make it a less bitter pill to swallow.

jefhatfield
Apr 25, 2002, 03:38 PM
imac got a facelift, ibook got a larger display, and powermac is heading into the g5 in the future (hopefully)

but even though it is tibook's turn and there have been speculations of this sleek laptop for many months now about superdrive or other big changes,

i think only a modest speed bump will be the reality

why?

because apple will put their next big announcement with the g5 powermac

and

apple needs to beef up their desktops as their did with the g4imac and now the need for a really high end desktop

for some people, getting an imac is a much better value than powermac, so apple needs to focus on the g5, and then maybe it can address the tibook in a BIG way

ibook may also go thru modest speed bumps and ram bumps

come on steve jobs, give us that g5 before the year is up;)