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Duffinator
Jan 15, 2008, 11:35 PM
Now that it looks like ATV is going to be around for a while I need to figure out a few things before 2.0 arrives.

1. Is there a way to identify which music files are MP3, AAC and WAV while looking at them in ATV? While most of my files are ripped at 192 kbps or purchased off of iTunes I have many of my favorite albums also ripped as wav's and would like to listen to them when I'm doing some serious listening through my HT.

2. Is there a way to have my ATV automatically select a specific source when it's powered up? I have my PC (soon to be Mac Mini) connected via LAN and it's the only source I use so it's annoying to have to select it each time.

Thanks



balamw
Jan 15, 2008, 11:47 PM
Realize that it'll probably be different in 2.0.

1. No, there's no way to tell, unless you create and sync your own smart playlists and play from there.

2. 1.1 usually "remembers" the last used source and starts up there. Annoying in the cases where that machine has gone to sleep.

B

Duffinator
Jan 16, 2008, 12:11 AM
Well I hadn't though of creating a playlist of WAV's so that's helpful. Seems so obvious now. :D

I usually power off my ATV with my HT so I guess that's the issue. So if I left the power on and just turned it off would it remember the source? I also turn off my source as well so maybe this is just wishful thinking.

imlucid
Jan 16, 2008, 12:25 AM
In Apple TV 2.0 you no longer switch between sources the way you do today. In 2.0 you enter a share from within the appliance submenu. i.e. Under movies you select Shared Movies and then enter the movies section of the particular share.

Kevin

balamw
Jan 16, 2008, 12:31 AM
Well I hadn't though of creating a playlist of WAV's so that's helpful. Seems so obvious now. :D

I usually power off my ATV with my HT so I guess that's the issue. So if I left the power on and just turned it off would it remember the source? I also turn off my source as well so maybe this is just wishful thinking.

Just remember smart playlists are your friend.

I find that my :apple:TV even forgets what language and resolution it is supposed to use if I power it down hard, so I really try to avoid that.

EDIT:

In Apple TV 2.0 you no longer switch between sources the way you do today. In 2.0 you enter a share from within the appliance submenu. i.e. Under movies you select Shared Movies and then enter the movies section of the particular share.

Kevin

Have you actually played with it? Can you confirm (or not) if it might be able to use a Time Capsule or other NAS as a source?

B

Qubits
Jan 16, 2008, 12:39 AM
Question for the ATV users. Do you expect to have the ability to select a movie after dinner, and then sit down a few minutes after it starts downloading to watch it?

balamw
Jan 16, 2008, 12:42 AM
Question for the ATV users. Do you expect to have the ability to select a movie after dinner, and then sit down a few minutes after it starts downloading to watch it?

What kind of broadband connection do you have?

I have FiOS so could probably get away with it. :p

B

Qubits
Jan 16, 2008, 12:47 AM
What kind of broadband connection do you have?


Typ. cable connection - started a movie download at 6:15 this evening, now at 10:45 there is 65 minutes left in the download. :eek:

balamw
Jan 16, 2008, 12:50 AM
Typ. cable connection - started a movie download at 6:15 this evening, now at 10:45 there is 65 minutes left in the download. :eek:

FWIW I've usually been able to download TV show content (SD of course) in ~1/4 time. So a 21 minute show takes ~ 5-6 minutes. Today the iTunes store is super busy, for obvious reasons, so try again when things get back to "normal".

B

Qubits
Jan 16, 2008, 12:52 AM
Thanks, that is good to hear. :cool:

sandman42
Jan 16, 2008, 02:27 AM
2. 1.1 usually "remembers" the last used source and starts up there. Annoying in the cases where that machine has gone to sleep.

This isn't my experience. Under 1.1 my :apple:TV reverts to its own HD as the source if another selected source is interrupted, and doesn't reconnect on its own. In other words, if I have one of my computers selected as a streaming source and that computer goes to sleep or gets restarted (or even if iTunes on that computer is shut down), the :apple:TV will switch to its own HD as the source and stay there, even if the streamed source becomes available again. I have to reselect the streaming source from the 'sources' menu to make it active again.

balamw
Jan 16, 2008, 08:07 AM
This isn't my experience. Under 1.1 my :apple:TV reverts to its own HD as the source if another selected source is interrupted, and doesn't reconnect on its own. In other words, if I have one of my computers selected as a streaming source and that computer goes to sleep or gets restarted (or even if iTunes on that computer is shut down), the :apple:TV will switch to its own HD as the source and stay there, even if the streamed source becomes available again. I have to reselect the streaming source from the 'sources' menu to make it active again.

Yes, that's what mine does too, but as long as the connection is uninterrupted it remembers its place.

B

Duffinator
Jan 16, 2008, 10:01 AM
Question for the ATV users. Do you expect to have the ability to select a movie after dinner, and then sit down a few minutes after it starts downloading to watch it?No. I have DSL at about 4 mbps per DSL Reports. For my first HD download I'll start it before I go to bed at night.

imlucid
Jan 16, 2008, 11:13 AM
Can you confirm (or not) if it might be able to use a Time Capsule or other NAS as a source?

It will only use iTunes on a Mac or PC as a source.

Kevin

balamw
Jan 16, 2008, 11:19 AM
It will only use iTunes on a Mac or PC as a source.


Thanks. That's definitely what I would expect, but there have been a number of posts suggesting it could use Time Capsule as a source. Guess I'll just wait and see....

Is this from direct hands-on experience?

B

imlucid
Jan 16, 2008, 11:24 AM
Is this from direct hands-on experience?

Yes.

Kevin

balamw
Jan 16, 2008, 11:27 AM
Yes.

Thanks!

B

Duffinator
Jan 16, 2008, 11:39 AM
Kevin,

Will there be any changes on how ATV reads the folder structures for photos? For example it only reads the first layer under Mypictures in XP. I have my folder structure set with another layer deep. Or is this a PC thing and when I switch to a Mac it won't be an issue?

Thanks, Duff

imlucid
Jan 16, 2008, 12:32 PM
Kevin,

Will there be any changes on how ATV reads the folder structures for photos? For example it only reads the first layer under Mypictures in XP. I have my folder structure set with another layer deep. Or is this a PC thing and when I switch to a Mac it won't be an issue?

Thanks, Duff

Folders will continue to behave the same for this release.

Kevin

Avatar74
Jan 16, 2008, 12:38 PM
Now that it looks like ATV is going to be around for a while I need to figure out a few things before 2.0 arrives.

[quote]1. Is there a way to identify which music files are MP3, AAC and WAV while looking at them in ATV? While most of my files are ripped at 192 kbps or purchased off of iTunes I have many of my favorite albums also ripped as wav's and would like to listen to them when I'm doing some serious listening through my HT.

If you can't tell the difference when you aren't biased by the labels, doesn't that just prove that you can't tell the difference?

Oh by the way, you'll never hear WAV's uncompressed through AppleTV... the system actually transmits everything as 320Kbps Apple Lossless. Even then, I bet you still can't tell the difference between a WAV transmitted at 320Kbps and 192Kbps AAC. If you disagree with me, then you shouldn't need labels in the first place.

2. Is there a way to have my ATV automatically select a specific source when it's powered up? I have my PC (soon to be Mac Mini) connected via LAN and it's the only source I use so it's annoying to have to select it each time.

Not when you power it up. But since there's no way to power it completely off short of unplugging it... that begs the question: If convenience is a big issue for you, why are you physically unplugging it every time?

Why don't you just put it to sleep... when it wakes, it'll still be connected to the last source you were streaming from... assuming you leave your computer powered on and awake. But if you don't want to leave your computer on and awake, then you're just going to have to suck it up and click a couple of times... I know, it's such a hassle to press a couple of buttons from your couch instead of getting up to turn on 3-4 components and find a CD and put it in your CD player and then press play and then navigate track numbers without a large visual display.

Duffinator
Jan 16, 2008, 01:01 PM
If you can't tell the difference when you aren't biased by the labels, doesn't that just prove that you can't tell the difference?

Oh by the way, you'll never hear WAV's uncompressed through AppleTV... the system actually transmits everything as 320Kbps Apple Lossless. Even then, I bet you still can't tell the difference between a WAV transmitted at 320Kbps and 192Kbps AAC. If you disagree with me, then you shouldn't need labels in the first place.



Not when you power it up. But since there's no way to power it completely off short of unplugging it... that begs the question: If convenience is a big issue for you, why are you physically unplugging it every time?

Why don't you just put it to sleep... when it wakes, it'll still be connected to the last source you were streaming from... assuming you leave your computer powered on and awake. But if you don't want to leave your computer on and awake, then you're just going to have to suck it up and click a couple of times... I know, it's such a hassle to press a couple of buttons from your couch instead of getting up to turn on 3-4 components and find a CD and put it in your CD player and then press play and then navigate track numbers without a large visual display.My question wasn't about whether or not I can hear a difference. But it's about identifying which files are which. Certainly I'm not the only one ripping CD's at different bit rates. I started another thread a while back asking what was passed through via optical to my HT and the responders said it was the full uncompressed WAV file. If it's only 320 kbs then there is no point on ripping as WAV's as I keep all my CD's and my intent was not to backup my collection but to listen to the music on iTunes via my HT and whole house distribution.

I never said I unplug my ATV. MY HT is fairly complicated and I use a power conditioner/switcher to turn everything on/off including my ATV. From my perspective since there is memory in the ATV it should remember the last source used and reconnect when powered up.

balamw
Jan 16, 2008, 02:11 PM
Oh by the way, you'll never hear WAV's uncompressed through AppleTV... the system actually transmits everything as 320Kbps Apple Lossless.

?Que? It's either Apple Lossless or 320kbps, but it can't be both. Most Apple Lossless files I have ever encoded come in around 600-800 kbps. and I don't think either Apple Lossless or 320 kbps AAC/MP3 would be very useful coming out of the digital audio port, since that is expected to be straight PCM (a.k.a. WAV).

Are you perhaps thinking of the Airport Express' AirTunes?

B

Jonescobbs
Jan 16, 2008, 02:29 PM
It will only use iTunes on a Mac or PC as a source.

Kevin

Kevin, just spitballing here, but could you store all your movies on the Time Capsule and have two versions of iTunes, one on your computer and one on the TC? Will your songs show as a source on the ATV or will this not work?

Avatar74
Jan 16, 2008, 02:30 PM
?Que? It's either Apple Lossless or 320kbps, but it can't be both. Most Apple Lossless files I have ever encoded come in around 600-800 kbps. and I don't think either Apple Lossless or 320 kbps AAC/MP3 would be very useful coming out of the digital audio port, since that is expected to be straight PCM (a.k.a. WAV).

Are you perhaps thinking of the Airport Express' AirTunes?

B

I'm talking about how iTunes encapsulates what it transmits to AppleTV (or AirPort Express)... It was my understanding from conversations with people who broke this down backwards and forwards that any bitstream larger than 320Kbps is transcoded on the fly to 320Kbps AAC.. You're right, Apple Lossless is basically AAC VBR. What happens though, since your optical input has to recognize the bitstream as Linear PCM, the file once streamed to the AppleTV is retranscoded back to 16-bit Linear PCM... regardless of the origin size (I've tried this with 24-bit LPCM audio and gotten the same result... comes out as 16-bit LPCM).

This isn't really necessarily a problem because the issues with artifacts or aliased frequencies are not a byproduct of compression or encoding... they are a byproduct of reconstruction errors at the decoding side. There are many technologies that have come into play to mitigate reconstruction errors since digital audio was being researched decades ago, and first deployed professionally in the early 1980's. So, none of these things should be of concern to you... but I'm just elucidating this because had I never told you... you would never have noticed.

Now it'll be interesting to see if you suffer the placebo effect...now that I told you, you will start hearing a difference and that difference, my friend, is only imaginary.

The only REAL discernible difference in fidelity through all my professional work with audio, I can safely say, is when comparing 16-bit Linear PCM or less with 24-bit Linear PCM. The increase in amplitude resolution is ridiculous... 65,536 possible values per quantization interval at 16-bit LPCM versus 16.7 MILLION at 24-bit LPCM.

Unfortunately, few if any recordings are ever mastered to 24-bit Linear PCM. There currently exists only one disc format that can support it... DVD-Audio. SACD performs inadequately by comparison, with a dynamic range equivalent to 19-bit LPCM at best, rendering it not worth the additional expense.


My question wasn't about whether or not I can hear a difference. But it's about identifying which files are which. Certainly I'm not the only one ripping CD's at different bit rates. I started another thread a while back asking what was passed through via optical to my HT and the responders said it was the full uncompressed WAV file. If it's only 320 kbs then there is no point on ripping as WAV's as I keep all my CD's and my intent was not to backup my collection but to listen to the music on iTunes via my HT and whole house distribution.

I understand... my point is that you shouldn't have to encode them in anything higher than 192Kbps AAC at most. I can spot the very insinuation of audiophile snobbery from low Earth orbit, and as one who records, mixes and masters in 24-bit Linear PCM, I don't stand for that pseudoscientific nonsense. So I guess that was my way of firing a warning shot back across your bow... but I wouldn't go the trouble of changing what you've already encoded. It has to get reconstructed to 16-bit Linear PCM anyway before your HT can play it. I'm just saying iTunes sends it to AppleTV during streaming as 320Kbps bitstream... but then AppleTV reconstructs the 16-bit LPCM and sends to your HT over fiber. There's no reason that you'd ever know because there aren't enough errors upon reconstruction so as to be perceptible. (see my above paragraphs in response to the other poster)

I never said I unplug my ATV. MY HT is fairly complicated and I use a power conditioner/switcher to turn everything on/off including my ATV. From my perspective since there is memory in the ATV it should remember the last source used and reconnect when powered up.

What you're doing is equivalent to unplugging the AppleTV... A computer remembers settings because it saves them to preference files on quitting an application and upon shutting down the system. RAM is volatile storage. When you cut power to it, whatever it stored is gone. By switching AppleTV off hard with that "power conditioner" (a bunch of overpriced audiophile snake oil btw)... since you're not running AppleTV through any kind of power down cycle (it doesn't have one)... you're erasing that information. If the ability to shut it all off in one switch is more critical to you, then just deal with the fact that you have to reselect your stream source every time.

As for your home theater being complicated... Well, uncomplicate it. Anything that looks convoluted probably is.

imlucid
Jan 16, 2008, 02:54 PM
Kevin, just spitballing here, but could you store all your movies on the Time Capsule and have two versions of iTunes, one on your computer and one on the TC? Will your songs show as a source on the ATV or will this not work?

I'm not sure how you would run iTunes on the Time Capsule...

Kevin

balamw
Jan 16, 2008, 03:03 PM
I'm not sure how you would run iTunes on the Time Capsule...

iTunes shares over DAAP and variations thereof, which have been implemented as low resource servers in plenty of other devices. See http://www.fireflymediaserver.org/

B

jbellanca
Jan 16, 2008, 03:07 PM
It will only use iTunes on a Mac or PC as a source.

But don't forget that your iTunes library can include files on AirDisks or external drives, not just disks connected physically to the computer running iTunes.

balamw
Jan 16, 2008, 03:13 PM
I'm talking about how iTunes encapsulates what it transmits to AppleTV (or AirPort Express)... It was my understanding from conversations with people who broke this down backwards and forwards that any bitstream larger than 320Kbps is transcoded on the fly to 320Kbps AAC.

Link please.

My understanding is that the Airport Express AirTunes is always Apple Lossless which is just 16 bit stereo PCM in about half the bandwidth, but there are no added compression/decompression artifacts here since if you send out 128 kbps MP3 as Apple Lossless it is indistinguishable from a WAV since it is lossless. This was done so that the Airport Express hardware could be kept simple & cheap, so all it needs to do in uncompress the Apple Lossless and send it to the optical port or to a DAC.

:apple:TV is quite different. It is perfectly capable of decoding the AAC/MP3 files it stores on its internal HDD, so just like iTunes to iTunes sharing it can send out the compressed data, which it will convert to 16 bit stereo PCM to send to the digital audio port or to a DAC and the analog port.

B

imlucid
Jan 16, 2008, 03:24 PM
iTunes shares over DAAP and variations thereof, which have been implemented as low resource servers in plenty of other devices. See http://www.fireflymediaserver.org/

B

Well yes, Apple could theoretically build some version of iTunes that could run on it. I thought you were talking about a user installing and running a stock iTunes on that thing.

Kevin

Duffinator
Jan 16, 2008, 03:27 PM
I understand... my point is that you shouldn't have to encode them in anything higher than 192Kbps AAC at most. I can spot the very insinuation of audiophile snobbery from low Earth orbit, and as one who records, mixes and masters in 24-bit Linear PCM, I don't stand for that pseudoscientific nonsense. So I guess that was my way of firing a warning shot back across your bow... but I wouldn't go the trouble of changing what you've already encoded. It has to get reconstructed to 16-bit Linear PCM anyway before your HT can play it. I'm just saying iTunes sends it to AppleTV during streaming as 320Kbps bitstream... but then AppleTV reconstructs the 16-bit LPCM and sends to your HT over fiber. There's no reason that you'd ever know because there aren't enough errors upon reconstruction so as to be perceptible. (see my above paragraphs in response to the other poster)

What you're doing is equivalent to unplugging the AppleTV... A computer remembers settings because it saves them to preference files on quitting an application and upon shutting down the system. RAM is volatile storage. When you cut power to it, whatever it stored is gone. By switching AppleTV off hard with that "power conditioner" (a bunch of overpriced audiophile snake oil btw)... since you're not running AppleTV through any kind of power down cycle (it doesn't have one)... you're erasing that information. If the ability to shut it all off in one switch is more critical to you, then just deal with the fact that you have to reselect your stream source every time.

As for your home theater being complicated... Well, uncomplicate it. Anything that looks convoluted probably is.You're making some assumptions here.....I have never bought into the big audio difference between formats and when I ripped my CD collection almost five years ago I did a lot or research on the topic and came to the conclusion that 192 kbps was the right compression for me. Sometimes I can hear a difference but for the most part I don't. No need to debate this topic further since it's been done a million times before. Five years ago storage was a lot more expensive than it is today. It would still be nice to be able to identify what files are which format. Seems like an easy enough problem to solve to me.

While my power source is a conditioner it's main purpose it to turn everything on and off. No claims of improved picture or sound quality. It's complicated so my friends all go oooohhh and aaaahhhhh when them come over to my house. ;)

Duffinator
Jan 17, 2008, 10:58 PM
?Que? It's either Apple Lossless or 320kbps, but it can't be both. Most Apple Lossless files I have ever encoded come in around 600-800 kbps. and I don't think either Apple Lossless or 320 kbps AAC/MP3 would be very useful coming out of the digital audio port, since that is expected to be straight PCM (a.k.a. WAV).

Are you perhaps thinking of the Airport Express' AirTunes?

BDid we ever determine what audio stream the ATV outputs via the optical digital output? Kevin???

imlucid
Jan 17, 2008, 11:08 PM
Did we ever determine what audio stream the ATV outputs via the optical digital output? Kevin???

Not sure.

Kevin

liquidh2o
Jan 20, 2008, 11:29 AM
It will only use iTunes on a Mac or PC as a source.

Kevin

Background info:
I have my music/videos stored on an external HDD connected to my Airport extreme router. My MBP itunes points to the air disk as its library so that I don't have to use the MBP's HDD space.

Question:

If my MBP itunes is the source for an appletv, will streaming work with this type of setup? And if so, does it stream air disk->MBP->appletv, air disk->appletv or MBP->air disk->appletv?

Reason for asking:

I'm debating between buying a 1TB time capsule (and point my MBP itunes to it) or a mac mini (w/ 1 TB external drives).

time capsule would seem to be cheaper and more of a minimalist approach (which I prefer)

Any insight would be greatly appreciated :)

imlucid
Jan 20, 2008, 12:48 PM
If my MBP itunes is the source for an appletv, will streaming work with this type of setup? And if so, does it stream air disk->MBP->appletv, air disk->appletv or MBP->air disk->appletv?

It will stream air disk -> MBP -> Apple TV

It is iTunes that is directly streaming content to the Apple TV. It doesn't matter where iTunes is getting its content from (local file, NAS, etc.) it still has to serve it out to the Apple TV.

Kevin

jaw04005
Jan 20, 2008, 01:48 PM
After the Take 2 update, will the Apple TV's frameworks now be based on Leopard rather than Tiger?

Also, how does Take 2 support Dolby Digital? Via the .MOV container? Does the original file need a 5.1 AC3 soundtrack or does Take 2 somehow convert 5.1 AAC to AC3 automatically?

ProteusFinnerty
Jan 20, 2008, 02:59 PM
I'm doing some long-term thinking about :apple: TV, and have a serious impediment to purchasing. Why doesn't :apple:TV include a DVD player? Is there ever likely to be a version of :apple:TV that includes an optical drive? I would love to purchase an :apple:TV to replace my DVD player, but I don't think I'm likely to purchase yet another machine to hook up to my TV.

ipedro
Jan 20, 2008, 11:43 PM
^I don't think Apple will be releasing anything in future generations of their hardware with a DVD player as its main optical drive. DVD is EoL right now... Blu-Ray is the next gen.

If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if Apple released a MacBook Air drive with BluRay this year or next. That could potentially be enabled to work with an :apple:TV using its USB port.

FreeState
Jan 20, 2008, 11:54 PM
^I don't think Apple will be releasing anything in future generations of their hardware with a DVD player as its main optical drive. DVD is EoL right now... Blu-Ray is the next gen.

If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if Apple released a MacBook Air drive with BluRay this year or next. That could potentially be enabled to work with an :apple:TV using its USB port.

The developer note for Macbook Air is available on developer.apple.com. The USB port on the Macbook Air delivers more than twice the power required by the USB standard (1.1A vs .5A), which explains why the new drive won't work with other Macs or the current AppleTV.

srexy
Jan 21, 2008, 11:11 AM
Here's my set-up and my quandary.

:apple:tv 40gb (in mail - refurb purchase now that take 2 is available)
Macbook Pro 2.33ghz Core 2 Duo, 250gb hdd, 2gb ram
PC 160gb Sata raid 1, Xp Pro
External HDD 720 gb hooked up to Airport Extreme where I currently store all of my media.

My PC is connected via ethernet to AEBS and my MBP is wireless.

I'm thinking to just use my PC as my iTunes server and perhaps even hook up the External HDD to it for additional storage. My only reservation to doing this is that the PC is hot, noisy and it seems to me that the Windows DVD ripping SW is much clonkier than MactheRipper/Handbrake...

My alternative is to use the MBP as the iTunes server but then I have to have it on constantly and I'm concerned that streaming from 1st the Airdisk then from the MBP is going to cause flakey if not unstable playback.

Anyone care to comment?

FreeState
Jan 21, 2008, 01:09 PM
Here's my set-up and my quandary.

:apple:tv 40gb (in mail - refurb purchase now that take 2 is available)
Macbook Pro 2.33ghz Core 2 Duo, 250gb hdd, 2gb ram
PC 160gb Sata raid 1, Xp Pro
External HDD 720 gb hooked up to Airport Extreme where I currently store all of my media.

My PC is connected via ethernet to AEBS and my MBP is wireless.

I'm thinking to just use my PC as my iTunes server and perhaps even hook up the External HDD to it for additional storage. My only reservation to doing this is that the PC is hot, noisy and it seems to me that the Windows DVD ripping SW is much clonkier than MactheRipper/Handbrake...

My alternative is to use the MBP as the iTunes server but then I have to have it on constantly and I'm concerned that streaming from 1st the Airdisk then from the MBP is going to cause flakey if not unstable playback.

Anyone care to comment?

I use my first generation Mac Mini as a media hub - I rip all my movies on my MacBook Pro and then transfer the file over to the USB drive that I hook up to my slow Mac Mini - you could do the same with your PC - just rip everything on your MBP.

For me it works best when I have the USB drive connected to the Mini and not the Airport.

srexy
Jan 21, 2008, 01:41 PM
I use my first generation Mac Mini as a media hub - I rip all my movies on my MacBook Pro and then transfer the file over to the USB drive that I hook up to my slow Mac Mini - you could do the same with your PC - just rip everything on your MBP.

For me it works best when I have the USB drive connected to the Mini and not the Airport.


Good stuff - thanks.

Do you use your USB drive for other storage? If so how is your connection set up? - I've used Samba to connect to my ntfs drives on the pc before but am wondering if there's an easier way... My firewire drive is currently formatted w/3 partitions - 2 hfs and 1 Fat32.

Edit:

Scratch that - just realized that your Mini will be able to read the HFS drives no problem...

I'll have to post up in another forum I suspect.

Duffinator
Dec 1, 2008, 09:21 PM
I'm now using my Touch as a remote for my ATV. Is the remote communicating with the ATV or my PC? The reason I'm asking is if I'm in the same room at the ATV the response if very fast. If I move to another room it gets slow and I drop the connection but I appear to still be connected to my wifi connection.