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MacRumors
Jan 16, 2008, 12:45 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2008/01/16/134017-mbavsmbp_300.png

- MacBook Air vs MacBook Pro photos (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/15/apple-macbook-air-and-macbook-pro-size-showdown/) - side by side.
- The MacBook Air battery will be a $129 replacement (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/15/macbook-air-battery-replacements-129-free-install/), requiring Apple to replace it.
- Walt Mossberg (video) first impressions (http://www.marketwatch.com/tvradio/bcPlayer.asp?bcpid=203719194&bclid=86272812&bctid=1378313911) of MacBook Air
- More high quality photos: Appleinsider (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/01/15/high_quality_photos_and_notes_on_apples_new_macbook_air.html), ThinkSecret (http://www.thinksecret.com/archives/0801boothphotos/)
- How long will a SSD drive last? (http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/01/16/so_how_long_might_the_flash_drive_in_a_pricey_macbook_air_last.html) - up to 51 years for a 64GB SSD and 12.9 years for 160GB SSD, longer than the average replacement cycle for storage.
- Multitouch video demo (http://gizmodo.com/345139/apple-multitouch-gesture-pad-hands+on) and control panel screenshots (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/15/first-macbook-air-multi-touch-control-panel-screenshot/)
- Guided Tour (http://www.apple.com/macbookair) is available on Apple.com

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/01/16/more-macbook-air-details-and-notes/)



Antares
Jan 16, 2008, 12:49 PM
Nice comparison. That really shows the visual differences between the two. And I had no idea an SSD could last that long. That's longer than a regular hard drive would typically last.

FoxyKaye
Jan 16, 2008, 12:52 PM
Waiting for the take-apart photos and video. It's all fine to line it up next to a MBP, but let's take it apart! Someone with a set of torx: let's make this happen!

Unspeaked
Jan 16, 2008, 12:52 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

- The MacBook Air battery will be a $129 replacement (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/15/macbook-air-battery-replacements-129-free-install/), requiring Apple to replace it.






The future of Apple portables...?

slffl
Jan 16, 2008, 12:55 PM
Looks great!

tbobmccoy
Jan 16, 2008, 12:56 PM
The future of Apple portables...?

I seriously doubt it. I think there would be an Apple riot on their hands if they try this tactic with the next MBP. I'll be seriously pissed, at least :mad:

edit: forgot to include the "future" i interpreted there was the $129 apple-only replaceable battery. whoops.

Slip
Jan 16, 2008, 12:57 PM
The visual comparison really does show off how stupidly thin it is. And the MBP's not thick either ;)

yoak
Jan 16, 2008, 12:58 PM
But it´s rather large when put on top of a MBP.
I thought it would be smaller

Unspeaked
Jan 16, 2008, 01:02 PM
I seriously doubt it. I think there would be an Apple riot on their hands if they try this tactic with the next MBP. I'll be seriously pissed, at least.

Maybe not the next revision, but somewhere down the road, you figure Apple would make everything as thin as this if they could.

The question is, does Apple prefer the non user replaceable battery or are they forced to use it because they couldn't find a workaround?

I would guess the latter, but looking at the iPods, it seems like they could have easily developed a user replaceable battery for those by now (it's been a very similar form factor for years) but still prefer you to go to the Apple Store, mail it in, etc.

Diversion
Jan 16, 2008, 01:02 PM
But it´s rather large when put on top of a MBP.
I thought it would be smaller

It's the same dimensions as the MacBook sans being much thinner. Which is unfortunate, tired of the huge bezel around the screen/keyboard area.. they could have shaved more off.. or maybe not, depends on how large the motherboard is inside.

Stampyhead
Jan 16, 2008, 01:05 PM
Waiting for the take-apart photos and video. It's all fine to line it up next to a MBP, but let's take it apart! Someone with a set of torx: let's make this happen!

Go for it...

officerdick
Jan 16, 2008, 01:06 PM
Hope someone hacks the multi-touch software so i can get it on my MBP.
It should be possible hardware wise.

porky
Jan 16, 2008, 01:07 PM
The question is, do I have to wait for new MBP or not... I think the current models are too expensive for what you get ... But I don't want to wait another 6 months... If the videocard and the harddrive of the AIR was higher, i would have bought the AIR... But now I don't know

Mac21ND
Jan 16, 2008, 01:08 PM
I can see arguments for and against the built in battery, but not being an Engineer, I'm curious if having a 'built-in' battery versus a user replaceable battery gives the consumer any real advantage (outside of designing a thinner device)?

happydude
Jan 16, 2008, 01:09 PM
man, i'm tempted. i've been waiting a long time for the next equivalent to the 12"PB . . . and while this thing looks awesome, it isn't what I was hoping for, at least not enough to drop $1800 getting one. sad day, i guess. at least i'll be getting an iphone in feb/march!!

i think what needs to be underscored in all the macbook air discussion is how this is a revolutionary step forward in the design of apple's laptops. i'm sure in the not too distant future, most, if not all will be similarly as thin. the R&D that went into this will surely be applied to future laptops, ipods, iphones, etc. makes me wonder what iphone 2 will look like . . .:D:apple::D

Mac21ND
Jan 16, 2008, 01:11 PM
man, i'm tempted. i've been waiting a long time for the next equivalent to the 12"PB . . . and while this thing looks awesome, it isn't what I was hoping for, at least not enough to drop $1800 getting one. sad day, i guess. at least i'll be getting an iphone in feb/march!!

i think what needs to be underscored in all the macbook air discussion is how this is a revolutionary step forward in the design of apple's laptops. i'm sure in the not too distant future, most, if not all will be similarly as thin. the R&D that went into this will surely be applied to future laptops, ipods, iphones, etc. makes me wonder what iphone 2 will look like . . .:D:apple::D

Agreed. I think we're already seeing how the R&D that went into the iPod and iPhone is really impacting Apple's laptops. With all the discussion, and complaints, about what the MacBook Air isn't - what it IS is still amazing.

zelet
Jan 16, 2008, 01:11 PM
Anybody know of Apple's history of updating the MBP? I need to replace my old-as-dirt 12" Powerbook and want to wait for the multi-touch track pad.

Is it possible they will release an update in the next 2 months? And is it even remotely possible they they will release a 13" MBP with a decent number of ports, dedicated graphics, and an optical drive? The MBA is awesome - but not what I need.

ricosuave
Jan 16, 2008, 01:12 PM
Steve showed us the inside of this thing. Without the HD and battery, it is essentially a video card sized complete computer.

I wonder what one could do putting in say 14 of these air cards in this enclosure...

http://www.creativetechs.com/iq/tip_images/Xraid.gif



Mmmm, yummm.

Danksi
Jan 16, 2008, 01:14 PM
I wonder if there's a market for an 'extender' battery pack for the MBA (or other Macbooks) - similar to those available for the iPod.

Not an external replacement, but something that you could connect to the Mag-safe (or maybe even the USB) for extended periods, where there's no power.

Would seem a better option than replacing your internal battery, as you wouldn't need to shutdown - you could just connect the extender-pack and keep working.

:cool:

MacRoom
Jan 16, 2008, 01:16 PM
Just off the show floor where I finally got confirmation from an Apple employee the MacBook Air Processor is a 45nm Merom 2 years in the making. So much for early Penryn options. It's Mac Pro or nothing. :D

abijnk
Jan 16, 2008, 01:16 PM
I've never been around for an apple product release (yeah, I'm that much of a newb) so, when will we see these things in the Apple stores to play with? Would they be there now? I live a couple hours away from my closest store, so I need to know when to plan my visit. :D

MrGouda
Jan 16, 2008, 01:19 PM
Looking at the black keys on the MBA makes me think about the new iMac. I find this amusing because they decided not to have black keys on the iMac's keyboard, but instead used white keys. I remember someone from Apple saying their focus groups didn't like the look of black keys or something?

But they went ahead and used black keys on the MBA anyways. I don't see why they didn't use the black keys on the iMac's keyboard. They actually look great and would match the iMac perfectly.

mcvaughan
Jan 16, 2008, 01:20 PM
I'm such a sucker for new technology. I bit the bullet.

Looking forward to her arrival! :D

izzle22
Jan 16, 2008, 01:20 PM
I've never been around for an apple product release (yeah, I'm that much of a newb) so, when will we see these things in the Apple stores to play with? Would they be there now? I live a couple hours away from my closest store, so I need to know when to plan my visit. :D

They will be in the stores in 2 weeks when they are available to the public.

/dev/toaster
Jan 16, 2008, 01:20 PM
Mr Jobs, please remove your head from your arse. We need replaceable batteries.

Not having a replaceable battery on an iPod is acceptable
Not having a replaceable battery on an iPhone is very annoying
Not having a replaceable battery on a laptop is unacceptable and down right idiotic

I have had 7 replacement batteries in 2 laptops in 2 years. Obviously, they have some serious issues when it comes to having good batteries. Why does he think its ok to have a laptop that can't have its battery replaced by the user, and they charge $129 for a new one. This is going to kill most people who would purchase it for travel. I know many sales guys who carry extra batteries for everything from their phone, DVD player, laptop, etc. When I travel, I carry 2 batteries for my laptop.

Its going to kill sales.

Diversion
Jan 16, 2008, 01:21 PM
I've never been around for an apple product release (yeah, I'm that much of a newb) so, when will we see these things in the Apple stores to play with? Would they be there now? I live a couple hours away from my closest store, so I need to know when to plan my visit. :D

Probably in 2 weeks from now you should see them showing up in the Apple stores.

motomullet
Jan 16, 2008, 01:21 PM
51 years is a huge life span on the SSD. now if only flash memory was cheaper.

nbs2
Jan 16, 2008, 01:23 PM
Those numbers don't make sense to me. For the 64GB drive they are assuming higher endurance specs than with the 160GB. It's a silly comparison. Using the 64GB numbers with the 160GB should yield something closer to 125 years. After all, with the larger drive, you are even less likely to write to the same block.

More importantly, for users who aren't continually re-writing to the entire disk, the numbers must be even higher. Imagine folks that never let their travel HD exceed 40-50GB of data because they replace the computer soon enough. Their lifetimes would be significantly extended - especially if they are good about creating new versions rather than overwriting a previous version.

abijnk
Jan 16, 2008, 01:25 PM
They will be in the stores in 2 weeks when they are available to the public.

Right on, I should/could have guessed that, but better to ask the more knowledgable... Thanks

I want to know if there is any play in this thing to where they could put in the 160GB hard drive in the future as another option. I've heard people say the 160s are thicker than the 80s, but how much??

emotion
Jan 16, 2008, 01:26 PM
Anybody know of Apple's history of updating the MBP? I need to replace my old-as-dirt 12" Powerbook and want to wait for the multi-touch track pad.

Is it possible they will release an update in the next 2 months? And is it even remotely possible they they will release a 13" MBP with a decent number of ports, dedicated graphics, and an optical drive? The MBA is awesome - but not what I need.

I think they'll wait for a significant update until Intel's Montevina platform comes out (mid 2008, maybe a little earlier).

I'm waiting for that now.

btw.I went with a black c2d macbook to replace my 12" powerbook. The macbook has the power i need but I wanted something smaller but still with some features left so it could be used as an everyday computer. The MBA isn't it either.

jlwillia
Jan 16, 2008, 01:28 PM
I would like to see some speed comparisons between the MB and MBA. I doubt Apple would make this thing if it were much slower than the Macbook. The processor speed doesn't bother me, but the harddrive may be an issue. Anyone have any input?

emotion
Jan 16, 2008, 01:34 PM
I would like to see some speed comparisons between the MB and MBA. I doubt Apple would make this thing if it were much slower than the Macbook. The processor speed doesn't bother me, but the harddrive may be an issue. Anyone have any input?

It likely has the L7700 in it so the cache size is the same as the current MB/MBP. The HD version is likely to be slowed by that PATA 4200rpm drive (just like my Rev A powerbook funnily enough).

tcoleman
Jan 16, 2008, 01:35 PM
Not having a replaceable battery on an iPod is annoying
Not having a replaceable battery on an iPhone is very annoying
Not having a replaceable battery on a laptop is unacceptable and down right idiotic


Fixed that for ya.

impierced
Jan 16, 2008, 01:43 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

- The MacBook Air battery will be a $129 replacement (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/15/macbook-air-battery-replacements-129-free-install/), requiring Apple to replace it.


Should also be noted that it'll take 5 business days to replace it.

http://www.apple.com/support/macbookair/service/battery/

aaarrrgggh
Jan 16, 2008, 01:48 PM
With the stink that TSA and DOT are causing over Lithium batteries, I imagine more manufacturers will be forced to go this route over time. Shorting battery terminals is really dangerous with this type of battery, so keep it isolated from touch.

It basically rules it out for me, but I understand the logic.

Really surprised they didn't make a port replicator with an ethernet jack, extra USB ports, and maybe even firewire and a supplemental battery. OK, so the extra battery is a stretch, but...

Sannekita
Jan 16, 2008, 01:54 PM
I just went to the apple store in belgium, they said they would have a "demo" Macbook Air in ONE WEEK

porky
Jan 16, 2008, 01:57 PM
I just went to the apple store in belgium, they said they would have a "demo" Macbook Air in ONE WEEK

Where? ITPro? thanks ;)

digitalbiker
Jan 16, 2008, 01:58 PM
51 years is a huge life span on the SSD. now if only flash memory was cheaper.

There is no way that those numbers are accurate. Life span of an ssd is an unknown quantity right now because they have not been in the market long enough to have complete field testing.

There are only a limited number of read & writes. Your mac with HFS+ journaling turned on is randomly hitting your disk. Increased activity results in increased disk access. If your OS tends to hit a particular storage space on the SSD over and over again it will eventually fail. once the storage spaces fail the drive will fail. A 64 GB SSD should not last any longer than a 128 GB SSD. I would almost assume the opposite because there is less chance for hitting the same storage space multiple time.

imwoblin
Jan 16, 2008, 02:07 PM
Should also be noted that it'll take 5 business days to replace it.

http://www.apple.com/support/macbookair/service/battery/

This is a main reason for me to not want a MacCrook Air. My 06 Macbook Pro
has had 4 defective batteries since new. I don't think the mfgrs have sorted out all of the issues with lithium - polymer battery technology.
I would be really cranky having to keep sending the MacCrook back to Apple for battery issues.

imwoblin
Jan 16, 2008, 02:08 PM
This is a main reason for me to not want a MacCrook Air. My 06 Macbook Pro
has had 4 defective batteries since new. I don't think the mfgrs have sorted out all of the issues with lithium - polymer battery technology.
I would be really cranky having to keep sending the MacCrook back to Apple for battery issues.

Ahem, I mean MacBook Air

bcsmith
Jan 16, 2008, 02:10 PM
Mr Jobs, please remove your head from your arse. We need replaceable batteries.

Not having a replaceable battery on an iPod is acceptable
Not having a replaceable battery on an iPhone is very annoying
Not having a replaceable battery on a laptop is unacceptable and down right idiotic

I have had 7 replacement batteries in 2 laptops in 2 years. Obviously, they have some serious issues when it comes to having good batteries. Why does he think its ok to have a laptop that can't have its battery replaced by the user, and they charge $129 for a new one. This is going to kill most people who would purchase it for travel. I know many sales guys who carry extra batteries for everything from their phone, DVD player, laptop, etc. When I travel, I carry 2 batteries for my laptop.

Its going to kill sales.

If you want a replaceable battery, Apple still makes 2 models of laptops that allow you to do this. I don't think that this will be as big of an issue as everyone is making it out to be.

zimtheinvader
Jan 16, 2008, 02:13 PM
wow they seem rather similar when placed like that. And I hate the bevelled edges, I still love the original 15" PB with its hard corners, classic like a volvo lol...

Lestdog
Jan 16, 2008, 02:17 PM
I don't get it. Other than than a great exercise in making MBP thinner. What's so great about this? I think this is a big miss by Apple. I bet they'll be disappointed in the sales of this thing.

chr1s60
Jan 16, 2008, 02:19 PM
I actually like the look of the MacBook Air, I just think it is a little overpriced. After adding the super drive and upgrading to the 1.8GHz, it is actually cheaper to purchase a MacBook Pro. The only thing the Air has as an advantage is the size and "cool" factor. Any person seriously looking to buy an Apple notebook that doesn't have storage and weight as a top priority should go with a MacBook Pro instead.

Slip
Jan 16, 2008, 02:19 PM
I don't get it. Other than than a great exercise in making MBP thinner. What's so great about this? I think this is a big miss by Apple. I bet they'll be disappointed in the sales of this thing.

Here you go http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=4771463#post4771463

irbdavid
Jan 16, 2008, 02:19 PM
Also:

MacBook Air battery replacement service - $129
MacBook (regular) replacement battery - $129

So yeah...

BWhaler
Jan 16, 2008, 02:19 PM
Mr Jobs, please remove your head from your arse. We need replaceable batteries.

Not having a replaceable battery on an iPod is acceptable
Not having a replaceable battery on an iPhone is very annoying
Not having a replaceable battery on a laptop is unacceptable and down right idiotic

Its going to kill sales.

I agree.

I was in for 1, maybe two of these until I heard about the non-replaceable battery.

I don't think it will "kill" sales outright, but these was definitely a loss of orders.

The bottom of the Air is beautiful. I get it.

But business travelers need more than 5 hours when they are on the road. Heck, parents need more than 5 hours when playing videos for the kids.

This was a big miss by Apple.

Claytoniss
Jan 16, 2008, 02:22 PM
It's perfect for a select group of consumers, but not those who have high hopes and wine in forums!:D

JW8725
Jan 16, 2008, 02:24 PM
Do we know if this thing has a FAN inside? With the SSD option would it be completely silent?

/dev/toaster
Jan 16, 2008, 02:24 PM
If you want a replaceable battery, Apple still makes 2 models of laptops that allow you to do this. I don't think that this will be as big of an issue as everyone is making it out to be.

Pointless ... why have a ultra portable version thats not fully suitable to those on the road.

Those who aren't making a big deal about it don't travel for business :D

Slip
Jan 16, 2008, 02:28 PM
Do we know if this thing has a FAN inside? With the SSD option would it be completely silent?

It would have to be one hell of a thin fan. But if it doesn't, having a totally silent Mac would be near perfect for the corporate setting

a456
Jan 16, 2008, 02:28 PM
I feel no excitement about this product. All I see is a concept that shrinks the storage size back to where we were seven years ago with the 12" PB so that we can spend the next seven years getting a hard drive the size of what we have in the MBPs into this form factor. Same with Flash memory in the iPods - we get to the stage where there is enough storage for what people want to do and then the rug is whipped from under us and we start again. And the same with processor speeds. We get a 2.x GHz into a laptop and this is cut to 1.6/1.8 GHz so that we can progress and build back up to the 2+ GHz. The same with battery life being cut too and firewire, etc. being removed as well - took a long time to get FW800 on all the MBPs.

Further, there are the inbuilt money making techniques (someone has already covered the battery issue), while the demo actually says - you don't need a DVD drive now you can download movies from iTunes. So forget all your movies you already bought - buy them or rent them again. This machine will cost you a lot of money and then cost you even more as you find you can't live without an external drive, that you can't use iMovie with a firewire camcorder. It is a machine that will restrict your options and flexibility in so many ways and this shouldn't be happening in this price bracket - give me an MBP any day, I'd even settle for an MB and keep the change.

meagain
Jan 16, 2008, 02:32 PM
Here's a quickie from David Pogue on it. :)

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?play=1&video=624410158

Mac21ND
Jan 16, 2008, 02:33 PM
Pointless ... why have a ultra portable version thats not fully suitable to those on the road.

Those who aren't making a big deal about it don't travel for business :D

I think that's the point Apple is making when it says it gets 5 hours of battery life, as opposed to the 1-2 hours PC's are getting. There's alot of business customers who have to carry an extra battery just to get 3 hours.

iSee
Jan 16, 2008, 02:35 PM
Those numbers don't make sense to me. For the 64GB drive they are assuming higher endurance specs than with the 160GB. It's a silly comparison. Using the 64GB numbers with the 160GB should yield something closer to 125 years. After all, with the larger drive, you are even less likely to write to the same block.

More importantly, for users who aren't continually re-writing to the entire disk, the numbers must be even higher. Imagine folks that never let their travel HD exceed 40-50GB of data because they replace the computer soon enough. Their lifetimes would be significantly extended - especially if they are good about creating new versions rather than overwriting a previous version.

Yeah, I noticed that, too. I did some math:

If you assume a minimum of 100,000 rewrites, the 64GB drive will last a bit over 2.5 years with continuous writing at 80MB / sec.

(The 51 year number is what you get if you expect 2,000,000 rewrites.)

Practically speaking, even under very, very heavy usage, you wouldn't wear out the drive in 25 years, even at a limit of 100,000 rewrites.

tartaruga
Jan 16, 2008, 02:37 PM
I'm probably going to be in the market for a new notebook in the next eight months or so, and I think I might end up with one of these once they get the bugs worked out. I'm a college professor, and this seems like it would be fantastic to lug back and forth from the archives and classes, where I use Keynote extensively. I'm a little put off by the lack of optical drive and nonreplaceable battery, but something to keep in mind is that this thing supposedly will get five hours with everything turned on. Turn off wireless and dim the screen a bit, and it could conceivably get much more than that. We'll have to see how it works out in real-world application, but it's definitely got possibilities. I'm still skeptical about the lack of optical drive, but let the early adopters figure that out.

I understand why some people are upset about this, but really, there are plenty of people who would want it.

/dev/toaster
Jan 16, 2008, 02:37 PM
I think that's the point Apple is making when it says it gets 5 hours of battery life, as opposed to the 1-2 hours PC's are getting. There's alot of business customers who have to carry an extra battery just to get 3 hours.

If you believe that battery life, I have a bridge to sell you. Apple has a nasty habit of suggesting the battery life to be ~40% higher then it really is.

Mac21ND
Jan 16, 2008, 02:42 PM
Further, there are the inbuilt money making techniques (someone has already covered the battery issue), while the demo actually says - you don't need a DVD drive now you can download movies from iTunes. So forget all your movies you already bought - buy them or rent them again. This machine will cost you a lot of money and then cost you even more as you find you can't live without an external drive, that you can't use iMovie with a firewire camcorder. It is a machine that will restrict your options and flexibility in so many ways and this shouldn't be happening in this price bracket - give me an MBP any day, I'd even settle for an MB and keep the change.

Ok, where do we start...

Yes, the keynote said you can buy/rent movies through iTunes, but no one said you had to get rid of what you had. This is exactly why Apple built in the 'Remote Disk' function specifically into the MBA and is offering an external drive (that no one is making you buy).

Having recently purchased a digital camcorder, sorry to say that firewire is on the way out as a connection. Most hard drive based or DVD based camcorders now use USB 2 as a connection - as it's standard on every PC. iMovie still works fine if you've got any of those camcorders, which again, is almost any camcorder that uses the new media formats. If you have a firewire camcorder, than than obviously this computer isn't for you. (And also, if you're doing heavy video editing; Final Cut, etc;, the only laptop that's going to cut it is a MBP anyways.)

I just find it funny how worked up people get over this. My favorite color is blue, but I'm not loosing sleep because the MBA doesn't come in blue. Take a breath everyone, it will be ok - even if this computer doesn't meet your specific needs or budget. Remember, someone else thinks it's the coolest computer ever made.

Mac21ND
Jan 16, 2008, 02:45 PM
If you believe that battery life, I have a bridge to sell you. Apple has a nasty habit of suggesting the battery life to be ~40% higher then it really is.

My MacBook gets close (certainly not 40% less) than advertised battery life after 1+ years. Certainly if I use it for certain activities, I'll drain the battery faster, but for what most people probably will use the MBA for (music, surfing the web, Word, iPhoto, etc) it'll probably come close to what they're saying.

As far as Apple's "nasty habit"; most reviews of iPods almost always say that Apple underestimates those battery lives.

slicecom
Jan 16, 2008, 02:47 PM
I don't get it. Other than than a great exercise in making MBP thinner. What's so great about this? I think this is a big miss by Apple. I bet they'll be disappointed in the sales of this thing.

Substitute MBP for iPod and you have everyone on MacRumors' response to the iPod Mini. :rolleyes:

plumosa
Jan 16, 2008, 02:48 PM
If you believe that battery life, I have a bridge to sell you. Apple has a nasty habit of suggesting the battery life to be ~40% higher then it really is.

except that with the new ipods they're actually lasting LONGER than what's quoted.

http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/16/ipod-classic-3rd-gen-ipod-nano-review-roundup/

UltraNEO*
Jan 16, 2008, 02:50 PM
In the early days of flash SSDs managing this was a real headache for oems and users. The maximum number of write cycles to an address block - the endurance - was initially small (about 10,0000 write cycles in 1994, rising to 100,000 in 1997). And the capacity of flash storage was small too. So the write endurance limit was more than just a theoretical consideration. In the worst case - you could destroy a flash SSD in less than a week! Source (http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/01/16/so_how_long_might_the_flash_drive_in_a_pricey_macbook_air_last.html)


Forgive me.. but isn't 10,0000 and 100,000 the same number??

shawnce
Jan 16, 2008, 02:50 PM
If you believe that battery life, I have a bridge to sell you. Apple has a nasty habit of suggesting the battery life to be ~40% higher then it really is.

Actually if you match the configuration and usage that is used when they come up with that number it is often fairly dead on. In fact in travel situations with wifi off you might get better times then what they quote (since it appears that the 5 hour value they quote includes wifi usage). Of course your usage model may differ and hence run times differ.

Anyway I bet it wont take long until you can get a secondary battery pack that will be connected via the magsafe connector... for those that need longer battery life. Personally I rather have that then swapping in and out battery packs which can get damaged (connectors) if not dealt with correctly (also consider recent travel restrictions on extra batteries).

Of course those traveling can more and more often these day find on board (airplane / train) power sources which can be connected to with a simple adapter avoiding the need of extra battery packs.

ImAlwaysRight
Jan 16, 2008, 02:51 PM
I'm probably going to be in the market for a new notebook in the next eight months or so, and I think I might end up with one of these once they get the bugs worked out. I'm a college professor, and this seems like it would be fantastic to lug back and forth from the archives and classes, where I use Keynote extensively. I'm a little put off by the lack of optical drive and nonreplaceable battery, but something to keep in mind is that this thing supposedly will get five hours with everything turned on. Turn off wireless and dim the screen a bit, and it could conceivably get much more than that. We'll have to see how it works out in real-world application, but it's definitely got possibilities. I'm still skeptical about the lack of optical drive, but let the early adopters figure that out.

I understand why some people are upset about this, but really, there are plenty of people who would want it.
You are obviously new to Apple marketing. 5 hours battery life means with every possible power draining feature off (all wireless off, hard drive not spinning, screen dimmed to lowest/unusable setting, etc). And even then it only lasted 4 hours 30 minutes and 2 seconds, so they rounded up to 5 hours. On a new battery with your typical usage, expect 3 to 3.5 hours at best.

One good thing about the MacBook Air ... it makes anyone who purchased/purchases a MacBook feel like a genius. More power, greater expandability, at 40% off the MB Air price.

shawnce
Jan 16, 2008, 02:51 PM
Forgive me.. but isn't 10,0000 and 100,000 the same number?? Obviously a typo.

Dagless
Jan 16, 2008, 02:52 PM
The more I look at the comparison shots the more I see the MBA size as unimportant. My Powerbook is slim enough for me too.

I think I'll wait till these sizes are standard and not pay the premium for them now.

/dev/toaster
Jan 16, 2008, 02:52 PM
My MacBook gets the advertised battery life. Certainly if I use it for certain activities, I'll drain the battery faster, but for what most people probably will use the MBA for (music, surfing the web, Word, iPhoto, etc) it'll probably come close to what they're saying.

As far as Apple's "nasty habit"; most reviews of iPods almost always say that Apple underestimates those battery lives.

Not talking about the battery life of the iPod, talking about the iPhone and Macbook [pro].

Source: http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/specs.html
15-inch MacBook Pro
60-watt-hour lithium-polymer battery (with integrated charge indicator LEDs) providing up to 6 hours of battery life1

So, you are really going to tell me a 15" MBP can get 6 hours of battery life !?

Sorry ... but it doesn't happen. Even pretty much at idle you won't get more then 3-4 hours on a 15" MBP. I have gotten 4.5 hours on a 17" MBP battery doing nothing but writing a document and even that is amazing.

shawnce
Jan 16, 2008, 02:53 PM
except that with the new ipods they're actually lasting LONGER than what's quoted.

http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/16/ipod-classic-3rd-gen-ipod-nano-review-roundup/ Yeah my 160GB iPod classic has exceeded what Apple quotes by a good 15% if not more.

Yankees 4 Life
Jan 16, 2008, 02:56 PM
when are they going to be bringing the multitouch to the macbook? I will def. buy one when that happens.

Dagless
Jan 16, 2008, 02:58 PM
except that with the new ipods they're actually lasting LONGER than what's quoted.

http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/16/ipod-classic-3rd-gen-ipod-nano-review-roundup/

The 2G iPod Mini was the same. They claimed something like 13-15 hours battery life but iPodlounge's tests had it at 24 hours.

I think that conservative figure was the turning point from critics complaining about the wildly inaccurate old times.

Spades
Jan 16, 2008, 02:59 PM
Substitute MBP for iPod and you have everyone on MacRumors' response to the iPod Mini. :rolleyes:

The iPod Minis were also cheaper and smaller in every dimension, not just the least important one.

Raukodur
Jan 16, 2008, 03:01 PM
CHECK THIS OUT:

http://www.domain-b.com/companies/companies_h/HCL_Infosystems/20080116_frugal_laptops.html

In particular, the HCL 'MiLeap' Y Series:

"The HCL 'MiLeap' Y Series, powered by the latest Intel Ultra Mobile Platform and Microsoft's Vista Home Premium operating system, weighs just 960 gm. This ultra-portable Leaptop comes with a Swivel 7'' touch screen, 80GB HDD, wireless connectivity, Data Card option, blue tooth & Ethernet network port offering full PC functionality with true internet experience on the move.

The MiLeap Top Y-Series incorporates a unique navigational pad that offers multiple navigational features such as touch screen, thumboard, stylus, keyboard, mouse and one touch buttons, making it one of the most intuitive products. It also features a Swivel 7'' display cum note pad, making it a pleasure to input using a stylus and hand writing. The Microsoft Windows Vista Home premium powered MiLeap Y series is priced at Rs33,990

Designed using the latest Intel Ultra Mobile platform- Intel processor A110 & Intel 945GU express chipset- this energy efficient lower power silicon design consumes less power, reduces thermal impact and gives an extended battery life. Both products are fully RoHS compliant with low energy footprint design. "



To tell you the honest truth, I was praying Apple would release this exact design, where you have a really small, and hence ultra-mobile laptop (similar in size to the Asus EEEpc, otherwise being thinner doesnt make it any more portable), which had a touch sensitive screen that you could swivel around use the whole thing as a tablet PC.

This computer will I believe be shipped on the 26th of January, so it will be interesting to see if it will only be sold in India, or if it will find a good international market (which I bet it will).

slicecom
Jan 16, 2008, 03:02 PM
The iPod Minis were also cheaper and smaller in every dimension, not just the least important one.

Hey I don't even like the MacBook Air, but I'm just saying MacRumors members seem to have a history of bashing new Apple products, saying the sales will be abysmal and they have been proven wrong 95% of the time.

impierced
Jan 16, 2008, 03:03 PM
Here's a quickie from David Pogue on it. :)

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?play=1&video=624410158

IMHO - the best summary of the MacBook Air yet. Very well said and provides an honest and accurate assessment of the new laptop.

tartaruga
Jan 16, 2008, 03:03 PM
You are obviously new to Apple marketing. 5 hours battery life means with every possible power draining feature off (all wireless off, hard drive not spinning, screen dimmed to lowest/unusable setting, etc). And even then it only lasted 4 hours 30 minutes and 2 seconds, so they rounded up to 5 hours. On a new battery with your typical usage, expect 3 to 3.5 hours at best.

One good thing about the MacBook Air ... it makes anyone who purchased/purchases a MacBook feel like a genius. More power, greater expandability, at 40% off the MB Air price.

I'm not actually new to Apple marketing, so you should probably avoid the "obviously" line. I've been using Mac notebooks for five years now, and in my experience, I have always gotten longer than advertised performance out of my batteries. Maybe I've just been lucky, or maybe I just have energy conscious habits, but that is a fact. I used to get 5.5 hours out of my iBook with no problem. In the keynote Captain McSteve went out of his way to say that it was five hours with wifi on. He might not be lying. Obviously we have to wait until the thing comes out for real-world testing, but I think you're a bit too quick to argue that they have always overestimated battery life.

Perhaps you should try waiting a little bit before going off like that. If you want a Macbook, then fine. Just don't assume that the new machine will underperform, since it isn't even on sale yet. Wait and see what we find out when it is.

Detektiv-Pinky
Jan 16, 2008, 03:04 PM
There is no way that those numbers are accurate. Life span of an ssd is an unknown quantity right now because they have not been in the market long enough to have complete field testing.

There are only a limited number of read & writes. Your mac with HFS+ journaling turned on is randomly hitting your disk. Increased activity results in increased disk access. If your OS tends to hit a particular storage space on the SSD over and over again it will eventually fail. once the storage spaces fail the drive will fail. A 64 GB SSD should not last any longer than a 128 GB SSD. I would almost assume the opposite because there is less chance for hitting the same storage space multiple time.

Their reasoning is flawed anyhow. The typical usage model of a harddrive does NOT consist of complete write/erase cycles. Drives fill up over time and as they do less free space remains to evenly distribute the following write cycles. In the worst case your drive is 99% full and all remaining write operations are constantly hitting 1% of the drive. This will speed up potential failure by a factor of 100.

Forced Perfect
Jan 16, 2008, 03:05 PM
It would have to be one hell of a thin fan. But if it doesn't, having a totally silent Mac would be near perfect for the corporate setting


I'm pretty sure I saw one connected to a small heat pipe in one of the Mac Rumors Live photos.

Silentwave
Jan 16, 2008, 03:09 PM
So I haven't been in the forums here in a while, but this pictorial makes me glad to have ordered one of these babies this morning. Photo assignments for the paper with the MBP sandwiched between me and a D3, D300, and a few big lenses just doesn't help my back.

chameleon81
Jan 16, 2008, 03:10 PM
I think that's the point Apple is making when it says it gets 5 hours of battery life, as opposed to the 1-2 hours PC's are getting. There's alot of business customers who have to carry an extra battery just to get 3 hours.

i have an ibm x41 tablet it goes for 4-5 hours. I believe most of the business laptops with small screen should go above 3-4 with single battery. At least they claim so

i like the way it looks but it believe it is expensive :)

epicwelshman
Jan 16, 2008, 03:17 PM
In regards to the guided tour... pretty sure the dude does not work in an Apple store.

SkyTurnsRed
Jan 16, 2008, 03:18 PM
It is a mighty fine product to look at, no doubt about it. I'm just concerned like everyone else with the battery life. 5 hours + Apple advertising = probably more near 3 1/2.

I think the MacBook Air is definitely a step in the right direction, but it's not the result that is going to tide everyone over. Future products will be centered around many of the ideas that Air is bringing, ie. Remote Disk, multi touch, etc.

ImAlwaysRight
Jan 16, 2008, 03:19 PM
Ummm, why does Engadget compare the Macbook Air to the MacBook Pro? That's like comparing the new AL iMac to a Mac Pro + Apple LCD instead of the previous white iMac. The size and specs would make the MacBook a much better comparison.

Speaking of which, I can't wait to see barefeats and others compare the performance of the MBA to the MB. :o

I thought paying $150 premium for the color Black was pretty outrageous in the MacBook. Yet I paid it anyway. Yeah, I was cool. And I did, and still do, think the color black looks better than white in the MacBook.

Paying a $1,000 premium (considering similar specs) to shave 2 pounds, make it thinner, loose firewire, no RAM/HD upgradability, and other inconveniences is just plain lunacy.

SkyTurnsRed
Jan 16, 2008, 03:20 PM
In regards to the guided tour... pretty sure the dude does not work in an Apple store.

Hahaha, I thought the same exact thing.

jackc
Jan 16, 2008, 03:22 PM
What did Mossberg say? I couldn't see the video.

tjmrpm04
Jan 16, 2008, 03:23 PM
Why is it that whenever a new product is released everyone has to complain and moan about it's shortcomings? If the people who keep incessantly writing these negative posts are put off by a non replaceable battery or the lack of a built in optical drive or whatever, don't buy a MacBook Air. Please understand that Job's and Apple do not design each of their products for you and you alone. I like the portability of a smaller laptop but do like my built in optical drive and removable battery. Because of that I will probably stick with my nice little black MacBook. Does that mean that because I prefer those things that the MacBook Air is going to fail or is a piece of #*$&? No it just means that it is not for me. Since I mainly only listen to Audio on my iPod, I would love to use a Nano due to its small size, but I have an audio library of about 20+ GB therefore I have a G5.5 30GB iPod. That does not mean that the Nano is a piece of crap because they will not make one large enough for my needs. There is a trade off for everything and it makes me sick that people are bitching so much about the trade off's of the MBA. If you dont like it, you are not sitting there with a gun to your head being forced to spend your hard earned money on one.

On a similar note, I think it is pretty impressive that in less than a year we have gotten, the iPhone, iTouch, a new OS, new MacPro's, the update for :apple:Tv, iTunes Movie Rental (you can argue that this is not a feat but to get all of the buy in they got from Hollywood is huge), Time Capsule, MacBook Air, and probably a slew of things that I forgot, all from one company is absolutely amazing. Almost each one of those things is a complete innovation in itself. I would challenge anyone to tell me what innovations HP or Dell or IBM have made that have had such an impact on the consumer technology market in the same time frame.

With all that being said, please understand that in terms of being a "Mac Geek", I am just a toddler and recent convert. I bought into the iPod concept with the 4th Gen iPod's, but I fought for a long time to stay away from the Mac. I got my first Mac about a year to a year and a half ago with my MacBook, and I only got that because I was having to design a network which would support both Mac's and PC's. But then I noticed that I was not using my PC as much. Then not at all as I installed Parallels and ran XP through my MacBook. So then I replaced my pc at home with the last of the non Aluminum iMac's (ticked me off when a little over a month later they came out with the new ones). Now at work I just added an iMac to my desk in place of any remaining hint of the PC world. Anyway, I am saying this because I am not a die hard Mac fan that would say that everything they release is pure gold because it is not. However, I do believe that they are one of the most innovative companies of our time and should be praised for all that they have accomplished in 201 days, not ridiculed because someone who reads a rumor forum is pissed because they did not do this or did not do that. If you want to have your voice heard, go get a job in Cupertino in the R&D division and stop your moaning.

Ok with that said, thank you all for listening as I have had a really horrible day and just experienced a moment of catharsis on this board.

Can't wait for MW2009. Who knows, maybe they will introduce iPort the first commercially available Teleporter, at that conference. But keep in mind that when the battery fails on the iPort, they will have to dispatch a band of Mac Genius' to your house to replace it and it will cost you ~$10,000 (is my comma in the right place?).

Have a great week.

Thom

bilboa
Jan 16, 2008, 03:26 PM
something to keep in mind is that this thing supposedly will get five hours with everything turned on.

If you check the specs for a MacBook Pro Apple claims it gets up to 6 hours of battery life. How many MBP owners actually get 6 hours of battery life? I'm lucky if I get much over 2 hours with mine. When it was new, if I turned the screen brightness way down and did nothing CPU intensive it would get maybe 4 hours, but the battery life dropped pretty quickly. So I'd take the 5 hour battery life claim with a few grains of salt.

foobarbaz
Jan 16, 2008, 03:30 PM
Their reasoning is flawed anyhow. The typical usage model of a harddrive does NOT consist of complete write/erase cycles. Drives fill up over time and as they do less free space remains to evenly distribute the following write cycles. In the worst case your drive is 99% full and all remaining write operations are constantly hitting 1% of the drive. This will speed up potential failure by a factor of 100.

That's only true if you never modify those 99% in those 50 years. Because every time you delete or change just a little of it, fresh cells will get back into the loop.

iRabbit
Jan 16, 2008, 03:37 PM
Can't wait for MW2009. Who knows, maybe they will introduce iPort the first commercially available Teleporter, at that conference. But keep in mind that when the battery fails on the iPort, they will have to dispatch a band of Mac Genius' to your house to replace it and it will cost you ~$10,000 (is my comma in the right place?).

Thom - You made me spit coffee - that was funny as hell! You do realize it's hard to look sophisticated sitting in a little cafe with you not-so-posh-anymore Macbook spitting coffee all over yourself, don't you? A very funny joke warning would be nice in the future ;)

And I agree with a lot of what you said. I started off a Windows Geek myself being on computers a long time, longer than most. I bought my first Mac in 1999 and just recently replaced the last Windows desktop PC in my home. Hubby's got a mac, I've got two, daughter's got two (just replaced her mac mini with a new one), and we all share a Macbook (but that is about to change! LOL)... there's but one lowly Windows laptop in the house that no one seems to want to use anymore.

While I know the Macbook Air isn't for me (I actually feel the Macbook is already quite portable), I'm anxiously awaiting to receiving the Modbook I ordered last week. That is MY dream come true. As for what Apple did this year, ya know, while the Air isn't for me, I'm impressed. It's VERY cool, and a lot of people don't realize how innovative. I also happen to be drooling over Time Capsule and the revamps to AppleTV... so I see other iToys in my near future. :D

Hope the rest of your day is better ;)

Padriac
Jan 16, 2008, 03:43 PM
But some of the MBA competitors in the "super thin" market barely get the same battery life as a MBA even WITH a 2nd battery (or with an extremely bulkier one... like the Dell)

patmcfar8
Jan 16, 2008, 03:47 PM
Why is it that whenever a new product is released everyone has to complain and moan about it's shortcomings? If the people who keep incessantly writing these negative posts are put off by a non replaceable battery or the lack of a built in optical drive or whatever, don't buy a MacBook Air. Please understand that Job's and Apple do not design each of their products for you and you alone. I like the portability of a smaller laptop but do like my built in optical drive and removable battery. Because of that I will probably stick with my nice little black MacBook. Does that mean that because I prefer those things that the MacBook Air is going to fail or is a piece of #*$&? No it just means that it is not for me. Since I mainly only listen to Audio on my iPod, I would love to use a Nano due to its small size, but I have an audio library of about 20+ GB therefore I have a G5.5 30GB iPod. That does not mean that the Nano is a piece of crap because they will not make one large enough for my needs. There is a trade off for everything and it makes me sick that people are bitching so much about the trade off's of the MBA. If you dont like it, you are not sitting there with a gun to your head being forced to spend your hard earned money on one.

On a similar note, I think it is pretty impressive that in less than a year we have gotten, the iPhone, iTouch, a new OS, new MacPro's, the update for :apple:Tv, iTunes Movie Rental (you can argue that this is not a feat but to get all of the buy in they got from Hollywood is huge), Time Capsule, MacBook Air, and probably a slew of things that I forgot, all from one company is absolutely amazing. Almost each one of those things is a complete innovation in itself. I would challenge anyone to tell me what innovations HP or Dell or IBM have made that have had such an impact on the consumer technology market in the same time frame.

With all that being said, please understand that in terms of being a "Mac Geek", I am just a toddler and recent convert. I bought into the iPod concept with the 4th Gen iPod's, but I fought for a long time to stay away from the Mac. I got my first Mac about a year to a year and a half ago with my MacBook, and I only got that because I was having to design a network which would support both Mac's and PC's. But then I noticed that I was not using my PC as much. Then not at all as I installed Parallels and ran XP through my MacBook. So then I replaced my pc at home with the last of the non Aluminum iMac's (ticked me off when a little over a month later they came out with the new ones). Now at work I just added an iMac to my desk in place of any remaining hint of the PC world. Anyway, I am saying this because I am not a die hard Mac fan that would say that everything they release is pure gold because it is not. However, I do believe that they are one of the most innovative companies of our time and should be praised for all that they have accomplished in 201 days, not ridiculed because someone who reads a rumor forum is pissed because they did not do this or did not do that. If you want to have your voice heard, go get a job in Cupertino in the R&D division and stop your moaning.

Ok with that said, thank you all for listening as I have had a really horrible day and just experienced a moment of catharsis on this board.

Can't wait for MW2009. Who knows, maybe they will introduce iPort the first commercially available Teleporter, at that conference. But keep in mind that when the battery fails on the iPort, they will have to dispatch a band of Mac Genius' to your house to replace it and it will cost you ~$10,000 (is my comma in the right place?).

Have a great week.

Thom

Ha! Thank you for that Thom. I've been a Mac fan for most of the last 25 years or so... and I'm always amazed at how Mac people will complain ad nauseam about new products when they don't neatly fit into each individual users needs. My favorite recent example was the unveiling of the original iPod. That thing got skewered around here... and that seemed to have worked out pretty well for everyone. ;)

tjmrpm04
Jan 16, 2008, 03:51 PM
Thom - You made me spit coffee - that was funny as hell! You do realize it's hard to look sophisticated sitting in a little cafe with you not-so-posh-anymore Macbook spitting coffee all over yourself, don't you? A very funny joke warning would be nice in the future ;)


Thanks Rabbit. I will be here all week. Tip your bartenders, waitresses and barista's well.


I had a long talk with my wife last night about doing away with our Fios TV and simply replacing the DVR's with a couple Apple TV's and serving up our TV Viewing through those. I am thinking that is in our future so I too was drooling. As for Time Capsule, I was at first thinking "Eh a 500 GB external drive that is 2x as expensive as a USB2.0 or Firewire version. But then got to thinking about the addition of the Airport Base Station and was like....Hmmmmm....Right now I have two routers, two usb drives (250gb and 500gb) and a slew of cables on my desk..... That would cut down on the clutter. If only Steve would release the iJitter allowing me the ability to Wirelessly backup my data while brewing a piping hot cup of espresso. Only then will I finally be in Utopia.

Anyway, hope you have a great cup of Joe. Hopefully you didn't have cream and sugar (Coffee is not too bad for a MacBook given it is not laden with Cream and Sugar!)

Take care iHop

tartaruga
Jan 16, 2008, 03:51 PM
If you check the specs for a MacBook Pro Apple claims it gets up to 6 hours of battery life. How many MBP owners actually get 6 hours of battery life? I'm lucky if I get much over 2 hours with mine. When it was new, if I turned the screen brightness way down and did nothing CPU intensive it would get maybe 4 hours, but the battery life dropped pretty quickly. So I'd take the 5 hour battery life claim with a few grains of salt.

You'll notice I hedged my comments when I said we'll need to wait and see what the real world performance is. My experience has been that I get more than advertised (I don't have a MBP--PB G4 right now). Your experience has clearly been different. I just think we need to stay away from broad, vehement pronouncements. Frankly, if it gets anywhere near 5 hours, that would be pretty great.

EagerDragon
Jan 16, 2008, 03:52 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2008/01/16/134017-mbavsmbp_300.png

- MacBook Air vs MacBook Pro photos (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/15/apple-macbook-air-and-macbook-pro-size-showdown/) - side by side.
- The MacBook Air battery will be a $129 replacement (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/15/macbook-air-battery-replacements-129-free-install/), requiring Apple to replace it.
- Walt Mossberg (video) first impressions (http://www.marketwatch.com/tvradio/bcPlayer.asp?bcpid=203719194&bclid=86272812&bctid=1378313911) of MacBook Air
- More high quality photos: Appleinsider (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/01/15/high_quality_photos_and_notes_on_apples_new_macbook_air.html), ThinkSecret (http://www.thinksecret.com/archives/0801boothphotos/)
- How long will a SSD drive last? (http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/01/16/so_how_long_might_the_flash_drive_in_a_pricey_macbook_air_last.html) - up to 51 years for a 64GB SSD and 12.9 years for 160GB SSD, longer than the average replacement cycle for storage.
- Multitouch video demo (http://gizmodo.com/345139/apple-multitouch-gesture-pad-hands+on) and control panel screenshots (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/15/first-macbook-air-multi-touch-control-panel-screenshot/)
- Guided Tour (http://www.apple.com/macbookair) is available on Apple.com

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/01/16/more-macbook-air-details-and-notes/)

Sorry but this does not sound right. The size of the drive should have nothing to do with it.

Some areas of a disk are written more offten than others, and some areas may never get written over.

How many times a single byte can be written over before it fails to hold a value?
That is the worst case scenario and we then take it from there to a better value by projecting that only 16% (pick a number) or so of the drive would be subject to that level of activity. Then add to that the ability to move a sector and you get better numbers. But you have to start with the worst case, so the size of the drive should not be a main consideration. Most people dont write into a drive from one end to another and start again, the writes are not that distributed or random.

Sorry

tjmrpm04
Jan 16, 2008, 03:57 PM
Ha! Thank you for that Thom. I've been a Mac fan for most of the last 25 years or so... and I'm always amazed at how Mac people will complain ad nauseam about new products when they don't neatly fit into each individual users needs. My favorite recent example was the unveiling of the original iPod. That thing got skewered around here... and that seemed to have worked out pretty well for everyone. ;)


Yeah I hear they did ok with that one. But who am I kidding, as soon as Zune v3.0 comes out I will run out and get one.........


.... Oh by one I mean a new iPod (by then I am sure to have run over my current one just like I did with my 4th Gen).

Peace out! (I have allways wanted to say that. Because when the kids say it, they seem so cool.)

Thom

pimentoLoaf
Jan 16, 2008, 03:58 PM
I'm waiting for the MacAir version that slides into an thicker wide-screen Cinema Display for recharging -- and has a panel to allow me to replace the battery myself. :D

God^Cent
Jan 16, 2008, 04:00 PM
51 Years on the SSD Drive makes its price well worth it! GJ Apple on making me go WoW.

inmyname
Jan 16, 2008, 04:02 PM
Okay, for the people on here who don't understand why there are so many posts from people who are not impressed by the mac Air..

Apple's loyal fan base of users generally like to see the newest products from apple as advancement on what had been available before, and worthy of their praise and money, not least because it helps them feel superior to those who still use windows computers.

Unfortunately, the Air does not in many cases, in the opinions of many, represent much of an advancement, and perhaps does not seem to justify the price premium that apple want to charge. This sort of thing gives ammunition to the windows users who like to point out time and time again that the mac fanboys and girls are paying over the odds for style over substance.

Especially when anyone can come up with a pretty extensive list of the shortcomings of the new model, and compare it unfavourably to not just the old models by the same brand, but models from competing brands.

When apple produces something like this and tries to present it as a premium product by its price tag, we feel that it diminishes the brand, and so makes our endorsement of the brand seem foolish.

What apple needs to do in order to rescue its own brand reputation (in the opinions of many of its detractors) is refresh the macbook and macbookpros significantly with real hardware advancements, that at least keep up with what other premium brands are selling.

Cheffy Dave
Jan 16, 2008, 04:03 PM
I've never been around for an apple product release (yeah, I'm that much of a newb) so, when will we see these things in the Apple stores to play with? Would they be there now? I live a couple hours away from my closest store, so I need to know when to plan my visit. :D

You ,ah could, I suppose, pick up your i-Phone and call them:eek:

brownieguy19
Jan 16, 2008, 04:07 PM
The future of Apple portables...?

I think an issue to be seen here is the fact this notebook was designed for those on the go...correct?

What about extra batteries? I don't think this is a good model due to the fact there are professionals who are going to want to take their portables with them and need to have enough power, without electricity.

mashinhead
Jan 16, 2008, 04:09 PM
its practically the same size as the macbookpro. This isn't an ultraportable.

Whoa67
Jan 16, 2008, 04:10 PM
The non user replaceable battery is extremely stupid.

Don't Apple think that we actually do something good with our laptops.

What makes them think that I have the time to ship my computer to Apple, leave it there for a few days and continue working with??? What. A piece of paper??

Or perhaps they wants us to buy two of them. Since they are so inexpensive. NOT....

I can live with buying a new Ipod when the battery gets crappy. But I can't wait for my MB to be sent around the country to get the battery replaced.

But perhaps this problem only exists in Sweden.

I want a small MBP not a thin disposable Mac without possibilities. :(

HLdan
Jan 16, 2008, 04:12 PM
I've never been around for an apple product release (yeah, I'm that much of a newb) so, when will we see these things in the Apple stores to play with? Would they be there now? I live a couple hours away from my closest store, so I need to know when to plan my visit. :D

Here's a thought, how about calling your local Apple store, they should know better than MR forums.:rolleyes:

Whoa67
Jan 16, 2008, 04:13 PM
:D The new Time capsule seems great. That i'm gonna buy. Thanks for that one. Solves my backup problems. :D

Whoa67
Jan 16, 2008, 04:14 PM
Here's a thought, how about calling your local Apple store, they should know better than MR forums.:rolleyes:

For your information. We don't have Apple stores in Sweden.

HLdan
Jan 16, 2008, 04:15 PM
The non user replaceable battery is extremely stupid.

Don't Apple think that we actually do something good with our laptops.

What makes them think that I have the time to ship my computer to Apple, leave it there for a few days and continue working with??? What. A piece of paper??

Or perhaps they wants us to buy two of them. Since they are so inexpensive. NOT....

I can live with buying a new Ipod when the battery gets crappy. But I can't wait for my MB to be sent around the country to get the battery replaced.

But perhaps this problem only exists in Sweden.

I want a small MBP not a thin disposable Mac without possibilities. :(

I think your post is very premature. You most likely will not need a replacement for at least 2 to 3 years. The local Apple stores might even do the replacement there.

MikeyMinimo
Jan 16, 2008, 04:17 PM
Man i sold my MBP the day before Macworld thinking that they were going to release new MBP's! Well luckily i did not send my MBP yet =) Anyways, i am planning on getting the new MBA. I'm tired of carrying heavier laptops around everywhere. Although the MBP and the MB are not that heavy. But for me lighter, thinner, and smaller is always better when i'm on the road.

By the way does anyone have any clue at all when the new Penryn MBP's are coming out!?

Whoa67
Jan 16, 2008, 04:19 PM
I think your post is very premature. You most likely will not need a replacement for at least 2 to 3 years. The local Apple stores might even do the replacement there.

We don't have Apple stores in Sweden. And my previous MacBook have had the battery replaced two times in one year. My MB Pro is fairly new and the battery lives so far.

But my previous experience is that the batterys are not to be trusted. But maybe I have had bad luck.

I can't take the chance.

queshy
Jan 16, 2008, 04:24 PM
What does everyone think of the commercial? I think it's awesome, like the rest of their commercials. I love their song choices.

azon
Jan 16, 2008, 04:27 PM
For your information. We don't have Apple stores in Sweden.
What are you talking about, of course we have apple stores in Sweden, maybe not i Kiruna , or where u might live.
-Du kan inte mena alvar att du inte sett en apple store i varje större stad i Sverige!

HLdan
Jan 16, 2008, 04:28 PM
For your information. We don't have Apple stores in Sweden.

Cool, but my reply wasn't quoting you, take care.

koobcamuk
Jan 16, 2008, 04:34 PM
It would have to be one hell of a thin fan. But if it doesn't, having a totally silent Mac would be near perfect for the corporate setting

I bet people still type loudly. With no fan to create ambient noise - it'll seem louder! joking you losers

Templex
Jan 16, 2008, 04:35 PM
Ummm, why does Engadget compare the Macbook Air to the MacBook Pro? That's like comparing the new AL iMac to a Mac Pro + Apple LCD instead of the previous white iMac. The size and specs would make the MacBook a much better comparison.

I think the main point of the picture was to show just how thin the Air is.
MBPs are thinner than MBs anyways.

jayducharme
Jan 16, 2008, 04:37 PM
What does everyone think of the commercial?

It's good. Apple seems to have hit their stride on commercials.

One thing that puzzles me though: every preview I've seen of that multi-touch pad shows fingers swiping a picture left to right -- and the picture moves right to left. That seems an oddly counter-intuitive choice for Apple. Why not have the picture move in the direction you swipe?

Dustman
Jan 16, 2008, 04:39 PM
I feel no excitement about this product. All I see is a concept that shrinks the storage size back to where we were seven years ago with the 12" PB so that we can spend the next seven years getting a hard drive the size of what we have in the MBPs into this form factor. Same with Flash memory in the iPods - we get to the stage where there is enough storage for what people want to do and then the rug is whipped from under us and we start again. And the same with processor speeds. We get a 2.x GHz into a laptop and this is cut to 1.6/1.8 GHz so that we can progress and build back up to the 2+ GHz. The same with battery life being cut too and firewire, etc. being removed as well - took a long time to get FW800 on all the MBPs.

Further, there are the inbuilt money making techniques (someone has already covered the battery issue), while the demo actually says - you don't need a DVD drive now you can download movies from iTunes. So forget all your movies you already bought - buy them or rent them again. This machine will cost you a lot of money and then cost you even more as you find you can't live without an external drive, that you can't use iMovie with a firewire camcorder. It is a machine that will restrict your options and flexibility in so many ways and this shouldn't be happening in this price bracket - give me an MBP any day, I'd even settle for an MB and keep the change.
..With the lack of a CD/DVD drive and the spectacular Mono speaker, I don't think that the Macbook Air is really meant to be an entertainment centre.

Also, regarding your comment about the processor speed and missing ports, comprimises must be made, and i don't know if you've used a 1.8 ghz Core Duo, but I have, and even though its dated technology, its still more than I need. I can only imagine the Core 2 Duo in the MB-A would be even faster. And seriously, who needs FW800 on an ultraportable? Its not a desktop replacement?
:o

koobcamuk
Jan 16, 2008, 04:39 PM
I feel no excitement about this product. All I see is a concept that shrinks the storage size back to where we were seven years ago with the 12" PB so that we can spend the next seven years getting a hard drive the size of what we have in the MBPs into this form factor. Same with Flash memory in the iPods - we get to the stage where there is enough storage for what people want to do and then the rug is whipped from under us and we start again. And the same with processor speeds. We get a 2.x GHz into a laptop and this is cut to 1.6/1.8 GHz so that we can progress and build back up to the 2+ GHz. The same with battery life being cut too and firewire, etc. being removed as well - took a long time to get FW800 on all the MBPs.

I feel the same about memory cards.

Phones got smaller, then bigger then smaller, now bigger again. Memory cards went from CF to SD to Mini SD to Micro SD, but the ceiling is still around the same ~2-4GB on average (I know there are 8GB and higher, but bear with me). Why not keep SD size but squeeze 16GB out of it rather than make micro SDs with 4GB on? No sense to me...

MacTheSpoon
Jan 16, 2008, 04:40 PM
About the battery life... the 5 hours is what Apple estimates with wi-fi and bluetooth turned on. So I'd expect 7-8 hours with them off. It's disappointing for me, because I expected revolutionary battery life, But, it's at the high end for laptops in the US market, anyway, though I know there are 12" Vaios sold elsewhere that Sony says get 9 hours, even 12 with double-capacity batteries.

True, it may be that Apple is overestimating this... their estimates for battery use with wi-fi on for the iPhone were accurate, though. So I am cautiously optimistic, and I'll look forward to reading what reviewers/early adopters have to say about battery life. If battery life is good, I for one will probably forgive them for not having a user replaceable battery.

By the way... I would really like it if they figure a way to trim down the width of the laptop by another couple inches in future models. One of the things I miss about my old PB 12" was the ability to lie in bed with it on my belly and type without my wrists being impeded.

amac4me
Jan 16, 2008, 04:42 PM
I would love to have a MacBook Air but I can't get it for 1 simple reason:

No Kensington cable lock slot

I take my current laptop to work and school and lock it down to make sure it's secure. I leave my office cube several times during the day knowing that it's locked down. Apple didn't build the MacBook Air with a Kensington cable lock slot so I will not be able to buy one. :(

w00master
Jan 16, 2008, 04:45 PM
I think your post is very premature. You most likely will not need a replacement for at least 2 to 3 years. The local Apple stores might even do the replacement there.

And then wait for 5 days when you have a presentation to do that day? Riiiight.

For me, the *real* reason why I'm upset about the MBA not having a replaceable battery is b/c it (possibly) gives a hint about the future of the other notebooks. Sure, right now you could always get a MB Pro or the MB, but if the *entire* line doesn't offer replaceable batteries? This is what I'm worried about.

w00master

jragosta
Jan 16, 2008, 04:49 PM
I can see arguments for and against the built in battery, but not being an Engineer, I'm curious if having a 'built-in' battery versus a user replaceable battery gives the consumer any real advantage (outside of designing a thinner device)?

Off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of advantages:

In this small a device, adding a door could be a challenge.

Adding a door or other compartment would interfere with the physical integrity of the device.

One more point of failure.

Added complexity in creating a mechanism for the battery to connect.

I've had a MBP for 2 years (2 different ones, actually) and bought an extra battery for each. I never used it.

Considering that few people are going to use the Air as their only computer, it's a reasonable compromise. For example, I travel heavily. I could picture using the Air when I travel (5 hours battery life is way more than I need) and my iMac in the office. If it needs a new battery, I'd send it away a week I wasn't traveling.

jragosta
Jan 16, 2008, 04:50 PM
I would like to see some speed comparisons between the MB and MBA. I doubt Apple would make this thing if it were much slower than the Macbook. The processor speed doesn't bother me, but the harddrive may be an issue. Anyone have any input?

What do you do with your computer?

Launching of apps will be a bit slower (but remember that the stock MBP drive is only 5400 rpm, so it's not that big of a difference) and saving files will take a moment more, but for many day to day tasks, you won't notice the difference.

jragosta
Jan 16, 2008, 04:53 PM
Mr Jobs, please remove your head from your arse. We need replaceable batteries.

Not having a replaceable battery on an iPod is acceptable
Not having a replaceable battery on an iPhone is very annoying
Not having a replaceable battery on a laptop is unacceptable and down right idiotic

I have had 7 replacement batteries in 2 laptops in 2 years

What the heck are you doing to your laptops? I've had 2 MBPs in the past couple of years and bought a spare battery for each - and then never used it.

I'm almost never away from a power socket for more than a few hours. I don't work on airplanes because of security (and because I just don't want to), but you can get an air power adapter if you want one.

Consider, too, that the MBA is almost certainly not going to be your main computer. If the battery fails, it's probably going to fail gradually - and you can send it in when you're not traveling.

I don't think it's an unreasonable compromise.

I actually like the look of the MacBook Air, I just think it is a little overpriced. After adding the super drive and upgrading to the 1.8GHz, it is actually cheaper to purchase a MacBook Pro. The only thing the Air has as an advantage is the size and "cool" factor. Any person seriously looking to buy an Apple notebook that doesn't have storage and weight as a top priority should go with a MacBook Pro instead.

Which is exactly the point. The MBA is for people who DO care about size and weight.

Oh, and the entry MBA is a couple hundred dollars less expensive.

Pointless ... why have a ultra portable version thats not fully suitable to those on the road.

Those who aren't making a big deal about it don't travel for business :D

Wrong. I travel about 50% of the time for business and the MBA would be just fine for me. I'm never away from a power outlet for more than a couple of hours and would appreciate not having the extra weight and bulk.

Don't generalize.

If you check the specs for a MacBook Pro Apple claims it gets up to 6 hours of battery life. How many MBP owners actually get 6 hours of battery life? I'm lucky if I get much over 2 hours with mine.

You need to stop abusing your computers.

I routinely get > 5 hours on my 17" MBP - with WiFi on, but not using the optical drive.

MacTheSpoon
Jan 16, 2008, 04:57 PM
The non user replaceable battery is extremely stupid.

Don't Apple think that we actually do something good with our laptops.

What makes them think that I have the time to ship my computer to Apple, leave it there for a few days and continue working with??? What. A piece of paper??

Or perhaps they wants us to buy two of them. Since they are so inexpensive. NOT....

I can live with buying a new Ipod when the battery gets crappy. But I can't wait for my MB to be sent around the country to get the battery replaced.

But perhaps this problem only exists in Sweden.

I want a small MBP not a thin disposable Mac without possibilities. :(

I hear you, if the MBA is your only computer, and you need it every day for work, you are bumming for five business days if you need the battery replaced. I guess the niche market for this computer is people who want a satellite computer, to complement another computer, like David Pogue said. If I bought one of these, I would hang onto my MBP to use for firewire camcorder video capture, as well as stuff that required heavier graphics card use, so i could always use that for a week and be all right.

Maybe Apple could start a program where they mail you a "loaner" computer to use while your MBA is being serviced, the way car dealerships give you a loaner car when your car is being repaired. You can transfer the files and programs you need to use to the temporary computer. Would that solve your problem?

boss1
Jan 16, 2008, 05:00 PM
Here's a point I think everyone is overlooking in the midst of attempting to justify if Apple's Macbook Air is the right move/ product.

Ever wonder what the form factor for next generation Macbook Pros will be? Your looking at it ;)

koobcamuk
Jan 16, 2008, 05:07 PM
I would love to have a MacBook Air but I can't get it for 1 simple reason:

No Kensington cable lock slot

I take my current laptop to work and school and lock it down to make sure it's secure. I leave my office cube several times during the day knowing that it's locked down. Apple didn't build the MacBook Air with a Kensington cable lock slot so I will not be able to buy one. :(

This, in my mind, will be important for insurers! I wouldn't get one either. It's not perfect, but it's a deterrent.

joemarioz
Jan 16, 2008, 05:07 PM
I personally love the new MacBook Air but i notice there is no front row?Why the sensor can be locate on the upper par where isight is;but Why doesn't it have it then waiting for answer.or probabilities.

plinkoman
Jan 16, 2008, 05:11 PM
all that MacBook Pro comparison does for me is make me appreciate how small the MacBook Pro is. not to mention how much better the design looks (no stupid taper :mad:), how much more powerful it can be, and how it has firewire, gigabit ethernet, expresscard, superdrive etc..., and how they're virtually the same price depending on configurations.

as it stands, I absolutely would never be remotely interested in the MacBook Air. and since when is a MacBook/MacBook Pro considered not thin? cool, the MacBook Air can fit in an envelope..., now show me something useful.

manu chao
Jan 16, 2008, 05:13 PM
We don't have Apple stores in Sweden. And my previous MacBook have had the battery replaced two times in one year. My MB Pro is fairly new and the battery lives so far.

But my previous experience is that the batterys are not to be trusted. But maybe I have had bad luck.

I can't take the chance.

Of what? Of not being able to use your computer for a couple of days if for some reason your battery becomes faulty? But you can take the chance of any other part in your computer failing that requires sending it in?

I've owned four laptops over the last eight years. None of my batteries failed. I had one replaced in one of the safety exchanges. Only for my first laptop did I buy a second battery but I never used both batteries on one trip. Only a few weeks before I sold, did I swap them and placed the old battery in my desk.

jragosta
Jan 16, 2008, 05:15 PM
And then wait for 5 days when you have a presentation to do that day? Riiiight.

Batteries generally fail gradually. If you notice your battery life getting shorter, why would you wait until you need to do a presentation to worry about your battery life?

And how often do you do a presentation where there are no electrical sockets?

For me, the *real* reason why I'm upset about the MBA not having a replaceable battery is b/c it (possibly) gives a hint about the future of the other notebooks. Sure, right now you could always get a MB Pro or the MB, but if the *entire* line doesn't offer replaceable batteries? This is what I'm worried about.

Why don't you worry about it if and when it happens? I don't think it's likely in the MBP. Maybe the MB, but I doubt if very many MB users would care.

bmorris
Jan 16, 2008, 05:21 PM
http://www.geocities.com/thefeza/macbookair.jpg

for all of us that have to stare carry around out our fat pudgy counterparts.

look at you, youre so fat... u disgust me. why cant you be like macbook air? super thin and sexy? would it kill you to shed a few peripherals?!

NC MacGuy
Jan 16, 2008, 05:21 PM
I can't wait until the motherboard works its way into a computer for the masses. Imagine the possibilities. If they had shaved an inch off the L & W I'd have already placed an order. I would even have lived with the battery issue.

manu chao
Jan 16, 2008, 05:22 PM
all that MacBook Pro comparison does for me is make me appreciate how small the MacBook Pro is. not to mention how much better the design looks (no stupid taper :mad:), how much more powerful it can be, and how it has firewire, gigabit ethernet, expresscard, superdrive etc..., and how they're virtually the same price depending on configurations.

as it stands, I absolutely would never be remotely interested in the MacBook Air.

If you had both a MBP and a MBA on your desk and you had to go somewhere where you did not need Firewire, nor a really fast processor, nor more than 2 GB of RAM, nor an ExpressCard, nor an optical drive, nor a 15" display or nor an ethernet port, which one would you take with you?

When do people get it? The MBA is not meant to be anybody's primary computer (except for those with small needs and a big budget, a small group, usually the 'needs' grow with the budget). It's a secondary computer.

barijazz
Jan 16, 2008, 05:23 PM
That MBA is pretty damn thin I'll give them that. But who really needs a computer that thin? I have a 15" MBP and it is almost as thin as I would ever really want. The thin design is cool and all, but not something I would trade for the power and expandability of the MBP or the MB.

If you had both a MBP and a MBA on your desk and you had to go somewhere where you did not need Firewire, a really fast processor, more than 2 GB of RAM, an ExpressCard, an optical drive, a 15" display or an ethernet port, which one would you take with you?

When do people get it? The MBA is not meant to be anybody's primary computer (except for those with small needs and a big budget, a small group, usually the 'needs' grow with the budget). It's a secondary computer.

It's obviously a companion product, and with back to my mac the tiny HDD doesn't affect you. It does appeal to a small market. But I hope apple isn't expecting everyone and their mother to go buy one.

jackifus
Jan 16, 2008, 05:39 PM
Anyone have a thought to what kind of performance boost the solid state drive will grant?

I imagine it will be dramatic ...
anyone have thoughts there?

thx

uNext
Jan 16, 2008, 05:41 PM
still a piece of steve jobs bowel movement.

villainx
Jan 16, 2008, 05:49 PM
The simple solution for the travel battery is to have an external battery pack that connects via the mag port. The extra battery can also be charged with the same charger. It's right there for Apple or a third party so it should happen, right?

It's still inexcusable that the battery can't be replaced. Or where the computing experience leads to inconvenience every year or two that sucks big time. I've had problems with the batteries before. So it's not simply relying on faith that the MacAir will be issue free for many, and at the same time, it'll probably be costly for Apple too.

Flobber88
Jan 16, 2008, 05:50 PM
I really like the look of the new airbook, and although it is amazingly thin, I would have much rather preferred to see it have a smaller footprint than its thinness, everytime i see it I just see a macbook that lost a few pounds, lost a bit of weight and in the process lost a bit of functionality.

A 12inch display or smaller with about the same thinness imho would have been killer, and by reading these forums, the majority would have preferred smaller footprint over the thin factor. Though you can't read too much into these forum posts!;)

Also the cost really doesn't seem too much, Apple is in a competitive market and realize that they will lose costumers if they charge too much.

compuguy1088
Jan 16, 2008, 05:56 PM
Do we know if this thing has a FAN inside? With the SSD option would it be completely silent?

If you watche the keynote during the part where he showed the inside of the MBA, there is a fan. Most of the surface space is for the battery.

plinkoman
Jan 16, 2008, 06:07 PM
If you had both a MBP and a MBA on your desk and you had to go somewhere where you did not need Firewire, nor a really fast processor, nor more than 2 GB of RAM, nor an ExpressCard, nor an optical drive, nor a 15" display or nor an ethernet port, which one would you take with you?

That's an unrealistic scenario unless I purchased both, and that would be an excessive waste of money. And the answer to that specific question has no bearing on which is the better computer to purchase.

When do people get it? The MBA is not meant to be anybody's primary computer ... It's a secondary computer.

you completely missed my point. for virtually the same price, my secondary computer can be very powerful, and extremely versatile, yet realistically, still quite portable. why would I want to sacrifice all the additional usability for something not a hell of a lot smaller?

for a primary computer, a MBP is obviously the better choice for the money, but so is it for a secondary computer. MBP's are still quite thin, light, and small for their screen size; by no means are they not portable enough for anyone. and then there's the regular MacBook. smaller and lighter than the MBP, and considerably cheaper(a good consideration for a second computer) than either the Air or the Pro, while still having added power and features over the Air.

I cannot think of a circumstance where I would ever consider the Air as the better alternative to Apples other portables.

Rendwich
Jan 16, 2008, 06:15 PM
It does appeal to a small market. But I hope apple isn't expecting everyone and their mother to go buy one.

The Cube was a truly awesome Mac. A totally silent desktop computer is a thing of wonder. Yet it bombed. You couldn't expand it in any meaningful way, and if you set a book on top of it, it burned up.

It turns out that the market for unexpandable desktop computers which burn up if you set something on top of them is too small. So The Cube is no more.

But afte a LONG hiatus of useable, justifiable, sustainable products, APPLE IS BACK and it's back with with a vengance: Macbook Air!

Design Point 1: Thinness

Thinness is good with a your supermodels, your credit cards (credit blocks never caught on), your mints in Monty Python's *The Meaning of Life*. Thinness is good for laptops, too. TO A POINT. The real question is not "2D or 3D?" The real question is "How THICK can this be before I won't buy it?". For me, the answer to that question is "about 1.5 in/3.3 cm". That's the question Apple COMPLETELY MISSED. They made a wreck of a computer, but it's really, really thin.

Design: Point 2: Width and Height

Calling this an "ultraportable" is a joke. It has a 13.3" screen which is hardly "ultraportable". They have large, noticeable gaps between the keys which makes the keyboard bigger than any "ultraportable". It's 9in x 13in with a HUGE screen bezel and *significant* border on both sides of the keyboard. Despite being stupidly thin, it's not stupidly portable. So they blew it, plain and simple. You can't buy this if you need a small computer.

Design Point 3: Portless for Her Pleasure

Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who buys a computer with NO ETHERNET JACK for EIGHTEEN HUNDRED DOLLARS in 2008 is a total and complete tool. The first time you have to do ANYTHING with a CD or DVD through your USB port, you are going to cry a river of regretful tears. It will literally take 7 hours to put 80GB of data through a USB 2.0 port. Don't believe me? Try it. That means putting a 760MB CD onto your Macbook Air will take... wait for it... wait for it... 4 minutes!! HA HA HA!

Design Point 4: Assault on Battery

For a mere work-week of your life, and 7 percent of the cost of the computer, Apple will replace your battery. Don't try this at home, kids. You'll void your warrantee and you can't find the battery anywhere else, either.

Design Point 5: Size Matters

The HD is 80 GB, which is a good size for an iPod. It's NOT A GOOD SIZE for a computer in 2008! It's a joke. So you want to add more storage? Great, you'll be doing it through.. wait for it... wait for... USB! HA HA HA (see above)!! The SSD is awesome and sexy and it adds a mere FOURTEEN HUNDRED DOLLARS to the price. You can get a 32 GB flash drive for about $400, so you do the math. Hint: It's overpriced by SIX HUNDRED DOLLARS.

Design Point 6: Battering RAM

They soldered the RAM to the motherboard and there are no expansion slots. This is 2008 not 1988. To take a bigger step backward, they'd have to re-release the Mac Portable.

Design Point 7: The Short Bus

The processor is hugely underwhelming, probably for heat reasons. It's not easy being thin! If Macbook Air is a thin supermodel, the custom CPU is the slimming, heat-free methamphetamine.

Design Point 8: The Name's the Thing

Worst ever. The company is called "Apple", did they forget that?

Design Point 9: Black and Silver is Good

For the Oakland Raiders. It's not good for a Dell, an HP, or a MAC. So industrial and bland and ovelookable, it could have easily been designed by a Microsoft employee. When I heard that Johnathan Ives signed off on this, I realized that all good things must come to an end.

Conclusions (1-9)

TOO THIN. TOO WIDE. TOO ISOLATED. TOO LOCKED. TOO SMALL. TOO FORGETFUL. TOO STUPID. TOO MISNAMED. TOO UGLY.

This is the first MAJOR misstep for Apple in many years - and after so many shoddy business practices, I am truly enjoying seeing them jump the shark. I had a Mac 128K (!) and they've made a lot of great computers since then. This might be the worst.

manu chao
Jan 16, 2008, 06:24 PM
That's an unrealistic scenario unless I purchased both, and that would be an excessive waste of money. And the answer to that specific question has no bearing on which is the better computer to purchase.
Well, that completely unrealistic scenario is exactly what I am considering, getting an Air in addition to my MBP.


you completely missed my point. for virtually the same price, my secondary computer can be very powerful, and extremely versatile, yet realistically, still quite portable. why would I want to sacrifice all the additional usability for something not a hell of a lot smaller?
You give out the impression that Apple is forcing you to buy the Air instead of the MB.

and then there's the regular MacBook. smaller and lighter than the MBP, and considerably cheaper(a good consideration for a second computer) than either the Air or the Pro, while still having added power and features over the Air.
And the Air is for all those, for whom the MB is too heavy (and clunky).

I cannot think of a circumstance where I would ever consider the Air as the better alternative to Apples other portables.
Can you consider a reason why anybody would prefer the MB over the MBP other than monetary ones?

prestowk
Jan 16, 2008, 06:28 PM
What is the write performance of the SSD disk in the MacBook Air? Is it comparable to the platter disk, or worse? I'm concerned as writing many small files, such as during compilation in development, is one of my main use cases. That is supposed to be up to three times slower on some SSD disks, than on traditional platter based disks.

uNext
Jan 16, 2008, 06:33 PM
whats so wireless about it?

O.k it has wifi and bluetooth..so does that 399.99 computer i just saw
@ best buy.

Apple is trying to blind people with the remote disc feature..pla ya scenraio using
the remote feature when your not home but in a business trip.
You still have to shell out for the superdrive which is priced reasonably well.

Now if it really stood for the future with features like the following wireless connectvities then this would have been a hit.

wireless usb
wwan
wireless internet
bluetooth



4 out of 2 i dont even think it should be called @air@ more like crapbook bare?

MacTO
Jan 16, 2008, 06:39 PM
Once again. They've done it again. I really want to buy one.

But there's no need. That's the dilemma. :D

Cheers. :apple:

badNameErr
Jan 16, 2008, 06:45 PM
I cannot think of a circumstance where I would ever consider the Air as the better alternative to Apples other portables.

How about if you already have a desktop mac and want a lightweight laptop?

Easy.

TheMacPotato
Jan 16, 2008, 06:46 PM
I'm getting a bit bored of all these 'ooooh it's so thin' comments. Yes its so thin because there is bugger all in it.

No optical Drive
No expandable memory
Just 1 USB port
No Firewire
Slow small HD
Slow Processor
No removable battery
No video card

Plus, it's not that thin. The curvy, pointy profile of it creates an optical illusion that it is thinner than it actually is. At 0.76 inch thick it is only marginally thinner than a MacBook Pro (1 inch).

Seems to me you have to sacrifice an awful lot in order to have a MacBook that is a bit thinner. I'd pay £100 more and get a MacBook Pro any day of the week.

I'm sure plenty of fools will buy it though.

badNameErr
Jan 16, 2008, 06:48 PM
I'm getting a bit bored of all these 'ooooh it's so thin' comments. Yes its so thin because there is bugger all in it.

No optical Drive
No expandable memory
Just 1 USB port
No Firewire
Slow small HD
Slow Processor
No removable battery
No video card

Plus, it's not that thin. The curvy, pointy profile of it creates an optical illusion that it is thinner than it actually is. At 0.76 inch thick it is only marginally thinner than a MacBook Pro (1 inch).

Seems to me you have to sacrifice an awful lot in order to have a MacBook that is a bit thinner. I'd pay £100 more and get a MacBook Pro any day of the week.

I'm sure plenty of fools will buy it though.


The fact that it is thin isn't important. The fact that it is Apples lightest portable is.

Rendwich
Jan 16, 2008, 06:49 PM
I like the portability of a smaller laptop but do like my built in optical drive and removable battery. Because of that I will probably stick with my nice little black MacBook. Does that mean that because I prefer those things that the MacBook Air is going to fail or is a piece of #*$&?

Yes, that's exactly what it means on both counts.

TheMacPotato
Jan 16, 2008, 06:53 PM
The fact that it is thin isn't important. The fact that it is Apples lightest portable is.

What the old MacBook was too heavy to carry?? Jeez go do some weights!

Rendwich
Jan 16, 2008, 06:55 PM
i think what needs to be underscored in all the macbook air discussion is how this is a revolutionary step forward in the design of apple's laptops.

Let's see - RAM soldered to the board, weakest CPU in the lineup, no optical drive, no user-accessible battery, no ethernet jack. But it's light! It's not an ultraportable or even particularly small. But it's thin!

The REMOVED things outweigh the tiny advantages by so much, maybe you meant to type "backward" instead of "forward"?

badNameErr
Jan 16, 2008, 07:00 PM
What the old MacBook was too heavy to carry?? Jeez go do some weights!

Don't be so tetchy! :)

I'm just pointing out the goal of the product was to create something lightweight - not a fully featured laptop. If you need a fully feature laptop get a MB or a MBP. The Air is for people who already have a desktop mac and want a lightweight portable. End of story.

WyoMac
Jan 16, 2008, 07:09 PM
I wonder if there's a market for an 'extender' battery pack for the MBA (or other Macbooks) - similar to those available for the iPod.
:cool:

I'm sure that at least one third party vendor has a compact external battery ready to go. Also, while Apple's stated $129 battery replacement seems reasonable enough (I have paid more than that for an extra laptop battery), I'm sure that by the time that people are actually to the point of needing a replacement, there will be third party vendors like those for the iPod that will do the replacement less expensively, or with higher capacity batteries.

cmendill
Jan 16, 2008, 07:10 PM
Who, when they consider all the shortcomings of the air compared with the MacBook, will still opt to pay $700 more?

Those who don't consider them?

I think this is an amazingly designed, beautiful computer. I just don't know who it's for.

It's not that I don't think this will sell, or that I hope it won't, i just think it is intrinsically a bad idea. And the reason people get so upset, is because apple spent so much time on this bad idea when they could have come out with something better, they aren't just mad because they don't like it.

It's the first 100% sex product since the cube.

It's gonna sell like hot cakes.

plinkoman
Jan 16, 2008, 07:14 PM
Well, that completely unrealistic scenario is exactly what I am considering, getting an Air in addition to my MBP.

don't you have anything more important to spend your money on than getting a second laptop? If ever there were an example of spending money irresponsibly, that is it.

You give out the impression that Apple is forcing you to buy the Air instead of the MB.

First of all, keep reading, I bring up the regular MacBook, you even quoted that part. Second, I was only talking about the MBP originally because of the size comparison that this thread is partially based on. My points that the Air and the Pro are similarly priced, while the Pro has much more capabilities, and is by no means, unportable, still stand.

And the Air is for all those, for whom the MB is too heavy (and clunky).
since when is the MacBook considered a heavy and bulky laptop? Apple releases a smaller computer, and all of a sudden everything bigger is too big, despite having formerly been praised for being small?

Can you consider a reason why anybody would prefer the MB over the MBP other than monetary ones?

Yes, the MacBook is slightly smaller, but it, unlike the Air, still has all the expandability of the Pro(minus expresscard), plus the power difference is less that it is between the Pro and the Air. Price is generally a major factor in getting a MB instead of the Pro. Why spend extra money if you can spend less and still get a well rounded computer?

It is different with the Air. You could get a regular MacBook, that has more features and better performance than the Air, for much cheaper, and as I originally said, you could get a MBP for almost the same price as the Air, and get considerably more for your money, while the sacrifice in size just isn't that big. Apple's laptops are small and light for their given screen sizes, getting even smaller just isn't necessary, especially at the cost of so much functionality.

I really hate getting in these debates. I only posted here because after seeing the comparison between the Air and the Pro, I was amazed at how the Pro didn't seem very much bigger. I don't see why you turned this into a debate, there was no reason for you to do that. Nothing you have said makes any of my points less valid. You just clearly have a different opinion on things, especially if you think the small difference in size is worth an extra $1799 on top of what you already paid for your MBP.

WyoMac
Jan 16, 2008, 07:16 PM
. But it's light! It's not an ultraportable or even particularly small. But it's thin!


The more compact a design is, the more compromises there will be. I have seen some ultraportables that had an impressively small footprint, but the keyboard was ultra-cramped and the screen real estate was small. Apple chose not to compromise on screen size or the keyboard. That being said, it is not the machine for me, I think there will be a market for it.

manu chao
Jan 16, 2008, 07:17 PM
Think about two-seater cars, think about eg the Miata. Why do people drive these two-seater cars if they could get four-seater cars for usually less?

Rendwich
Jan 16, 2008, 07:22 PM
I'm just pointing out the goal of the product was to create something lightweight - not a fully featured laptop. If you need a fully feature laptop get a MB or a MBP. The Air is for people who already have a desktop mac and want a lightweight portable. End of story.

of water (or milk or soda) weighs about 2 pounds. That's the weight difference between a MacBook Air and a MacBook. Did you EVER HEAR of ANYONE who was on a business trip or at school and said, "Man, this liter of soda is killing me! I have to set it down before I get tired!"?

No, of course you didn't. It's a truly ridiculous reason to create a dramatically underpowered and underequipped computer for an exhorbitant price. The MacBook Air, from the name to the lack of an ethernet jack, will be the biggest Apple bust since Jobs took over again. Count on it.

happywilly
Jan 16, 2008, 07:23 PM
Steve:

Through partnerships bundle AIR with unlimited internet and unlimited movies for a specified time period say one year. Offer separate options to pay $ for the internet package and $ for the movies. The result is an entertainment juggernaut ...who cares about the living room....a WIN for every partner.

manu chao
Jan 16, 2008, 07:24 PM
I really hate getting in these debates. I only posted here because after seeing the comparison between the Air and the Pro, I was amazed at how the Pro didn't seem very much bigger.

I only posted here because I'm fed up with so many people accusing Apple (and indirectly those who like the Air) of being stupid to produce something they themselves would not buy.

manu chao
Jan 16, 2008, 07:28 PM
of water (or milk or soda) weighs about 2 pounds. That's the weight difference between a MacBook Air and a MacBook. Did you EVER HEAR of ANYONE who was on a business trip or at school and said, "Man, this liter of soda is killing me! I have to set it down before I get tired!"?

No, of course you didn't. It's a truly ridiculous reason to create a dramatically underpowered and underequipped computer for an exhorbitant price. The MacBook Air, from the name to the lack of an ethernet jack, will be the biggest Apple bust since Jobs took over again. Count on it.

Here it is again, Apple is stupid and arrogant for offering you a product that you don't like.

And by the way, I suffer from neck and wrist problems, and I do feel every pound on my shoulder or in my hands.

plinkoman
Jan 16, 2008, 07:29 PM
I only posted here because I'm fed up with so many people accusing Apple (and indirectly those who like the Air) of being stupid to produce something they themselves would not buy.

fair enough, but I made no such accusation.

Rendwich
Jan 16, 2008, 07:32 PM
Think about two-seater cars, think about eg the Miata. Why do people drive these two-seater cars if they could get four-seater cars for usually less?

One reason is that the Miata is quite maneuverable and agile on the road. It's fun to drive. Another reason is that the Miata "footprint" is dramatically smaller, it fits in smaller places. A third reason is the power/weight ratio. The performance is better because the car is so light. Fourth, the Miata is a convertible and it's fun to drive in the open air in nice weather.

Now let's use these reasons for the MacBook Air:

1) The MacBook Air, far from being agile, is dramatically underpowered. It's much less 'agile" than a cheap four-seat car or a cheap, thicker laptop. It will be much less fun to drive than a normal laptop for half the price.

2) The MacBook Air's footprint is the same as a normal laptop or a "four-set car". You can't fit it anywhere you can't fit a normal laptop, except an envelope. My productivity and "driving pleasure" are SEVERELY REDUCED inside an envelope.

3) The power/weight ratio of a MacBook Air is almost exactly the same as a MacBook. Not to mention that a 5 pound laptop is hardly a great burden, the number is so small that it's irrelevant. Cutting off two pounds doesn't change anyone's experience in any meaningful way.

4) The wind will blow through your hair a lot better on a thicker laptop than it will with the underpowered MacBook AIr.

In short, the reasons for a Miata have nothing to do with the reasons for a MacBook Air, and that's essentially because there are no reasons for a MacBook Air at all. This computer will make The Cube look like a great product success.

badNameErr
Jan 16, 2008, 07:35 PM
of water (or milk or soda) weighs about 2 pounds. That's the weight difference between a MacBook Air and a MacBook. Did you EVER HEAR of ANYONE who was on a business trip or at school and said, "Man, this liter of soda is killing me! I have to set it down before I get tired!"?

No, of course you didn't. It's a truly ridiculous reason to create a dramatically underpowered and underequipped computer for an exhorbitant price. The MacBook Air, from the name to the lack of an ethernet jack, will be the biggest Apple bust since Jobs took over again. Count on it.

So, if you could have a computer which does everything you need and was 2 pounds lighter (and price wasn't an issue) you wouldn't buy it? There is a market who will pay a premium for a lightweight portable. That is the market this was designed for.

meagain
Jan 16, 2008, 07:36 PM
People here still use ethernet? Like, actually plugging the computer into the internet? :o

Rendwich
Jan 16, 2008, 07:40 PM
Here it is again, Apple is stupid and arrogant for offering you a product that you don't like.

I don't know if they're arrogant or not, I never said that. But the MacBook Air is a realy stupid idea and if that makes them stupid, so be it. I never said anything like that, but I'll put those words of yours in my mouth, if you insist.

Apple has made some amazing hardware and I'm sure they'll do it again. No one bats 1.000, and this is 3-pitch strikeout, plain and obvious to anyone.

And by the way, I suffer from neck and wrist problems, and I do feel every pound on my shoulder or in my hands.

I've never seen a neck lanyard for a laptop, maybe you should consider a different way of carrying it?

And furthermore, you're ripping everyone because "Apple is offering a product they don't like" as if our personal preferences are irrelevant to our purchases. How come YOUR PERSONAL PROBLEMS are so important and essential? Are you more important than everyone who can see what a dud the MacBook Air is?

And honestly, did you EVER set down a liter of soda (not two liters, one liter) because your neck was too sore? Come on, be slightly realistic and honest for a minute. If 2 pounds causes you pain, the least of your worries is a laptop.

WyoMac
Jan 16, 2008, 07:42 PM
Conclusions (1-9)

TOO THIN. TOO WIDE. TOO ISOLATED. TOO LOCKED. TOO SMALL. TOO FORGETFUL. TOO STUPID. TOO MISNAMED. TOO UGLY.


I would suggest you don't buy one. There will be people that will.

dsnort
Jan 16, 2008, 07:42 PM
3) The power/weight ratio of a MacBook Air is almost exactly the same as a MacBook. Not to mention that a 5 pound laptop is hardly a great burden, the number is so small that it's irrelevant. Cutting off two pounds doesn't change anyone's experience in any meaningful way.

While your post was inconceivable replete with examples of ignorance and faulty logic, this one example leapt out at me.

As someone who travels ALL the time, the possibility or even fractional potential of less weight in the briefcase that I have lugged through most North American airports excites me to a state that is almost sexual. Really!!!!

Go back under your bridge Troll.

jragosta
Jan 16, 2008, 07:45 PM
This, in my mind, will be important for insurers! I wouldn't get one either. It's not perfect, but it's a deterrent.

Off the top of my head, I don't know a single laptop users who uses the security cable when traveling. Granted, some of them use the cable in their (locked) offices, but that's not when most laptops get stolen.

I personally love the new MacBook Air but i notice there is no front row?

Because the MBA wouldn't make a very good entertainment center?

badNameErr
Jan 16, 2008, 07:48 PM
As someone who travels ALL the time, the possibility or even fractional potential of less weight in the briefcase that I have lugged through most North American airports excites me to a state that is almost sexual. Really!!!!

The serious travelers here understand that but you won't get anywhere if you try to explain it to the non-travelers. I've already tried - and failed. :rolleyes:

Rendwich
Jan 16, 2008, 07:48 PM
So, if you could have a computer which does everything you need and was 2 pounds lighter (and price wasn't an issue) you wouldn't buy it? There is a market who will pay a premium for a lightweight portable. That is the market this was designed for.

The rub comes when you type "does eveything you need". There is NO ETHERNET JACK, there is a very weak CPU, there is NO REPLACEABLE BATTERY, there is NO SMALL FOOTPRINT, there is a TINY HARD DRIVE. What am I doing with this computer? Surfing the web?

Beacuse if I'm surfing the web in Starbucks, I am ()*&#$%$ well not going to pay EIGHTEEN HUNDRED DOLLARS for the privledge. You say "if price was no issue" but if "price is no issue" then why have an opinion on ANYTHING you buy? Just buy eveything and see what works best for you! Price is ALWAYS an issue unless you're Bill Gates.

It's these kinds of "arguments" that make the world laugh at us Apple users. "If price is no issue", I mean, really? Because I can get a laptop which does EVERYTHING better for MUCH LESS MONEY. Now I have to decide if I am going to take dramatic hits in price and features to save 2 pounds.

Maybe neck-and-wrist guy will do that, but he's in a tiny minority which will make MacBook Air a mega-failure which Apple hasn't seen for a decade.

mcbane666
Jan 16, 2008, 07:49 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2008/01/16/134017-mbavsmbp_300.png

- MacBook Air vs MacBook Pro photos (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/15/apple-macbook-air-and-macbook-pro-size-showdown/) - side by side.
- The MacBook Air battery will be a $129 replacement (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/15/macbook-air-battery-replacements-129-free-install/), requiring Apple to replace it.
- Walt Mossberg (video) first impressions (http://www.marketwatch.com/tvradio/bcPlayer.asp?bcpid=203719194&bclid=86272812&bctid=1378313911) of MacBook Air
- More high quality photos: Appleinsider (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/01/15/high_quality_photos_and_notes_on_apples_new_macbook_air.html), ThinkSecret (http://www.thinksecret.com/archives/0801boothphotos/)
- How long will a SSD drive last? (http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/01/16/so_how_long_might_the_flash_drive_in_a_pricey_macbook_air_last.html) - up to 51 years for a 64GB SSD and 12.9 years for 160GB SSD, longer than the average replacement cycle for storage.
- Multitouch video demo (http://gizmodo.com/345139/apple-multitouch-gesture-pad-hands+on) and control panel screenshots (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/15/first-macbook-air-multi-touch-control-panel-screenshot/)
- Guided Tour (http://www.apple.com/macbookair) is available on Apple.com

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/01/16/more-macbook-air-details-and-notes/)

this is the second time you have posted two SSD options, there is only one.

jragosta
Jan 16, 2008, 07:50 PM
Let's see - RAM soldered to the board, weakest CPU in the lineup, no optical drive, no user-accessible battery, no ethernet jack. But it's light! It's not an ultraportable or even particularly small. But it's thin!

The REMOVED things outweigh the tiny advantages by so much, maybe you meant to type "backward" instead of "forward"?

Maybe for you. Fortunately, you're not the entire computer market.

Lots of people like the fact that they can get a nice sized screen on a Mac with a 3 lb computer and none of the removed things matter to them. Personally, I couldn't care less about Ethernet, Firewire, optical drive, multiple USB ports, etc on a laptop. And since I'm carrying a laptop and power adapter on my shoulder through airports > 20 weeks a year, cutting the weight by more than 50% is a great thing.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that other people won't. If YOU don't like it, then don't buy it.

The rub comes when you type "does eveything you need". There is NO ETHERNET JACK, there is a very weak CPU, there is NO REPLACEABLE BATTERY, there is NO SMALL FOOTPRINT, there is a TINY HARD DRIVE. What am I doing with this computer? Surfing the web?

Beacuse if I'm surfing the web in Starbucks, I am ()*&#$%$ well not going to pay EIGHTEEN HUNDRED DOLLARS for the privledge. You say "if price was no issue" but if "price is no issue" then why have an opinion on ANYTHING you buy? Just buy eveything and see what works best for you! Price is ALWAYS an issue unless you're Bill Gates.

It's these kinds of "arguments" that make the world laugh at us Apple users. "If price is no issue", I mean, really? Because I can get a laptop which does EVERYTHING better for MUCH LESS MONEY. Now I have to decide if I am going to take dramatic hits in price and features to save 2 pounds.

Maybe neck-and-wrist guy will do that, but he's in a tiny minority which will make MacBook Air a mega-failure which Apple hasn't seen for a decade.

Compare the MBA to the MBP. It's less than half the weight and a couple hundred bucks cheaper. if you don't need Ethernet, 17" screen, optical drive, etc, why not choose the MBA?

For lots of people, the ability to do email, browse the web, and maybe run Excel or Word when they're on the road is all they need. The MBA is the lightest Mac laptop and that's valuable to lots of people.

No one said you have to buy one.

manu chao
Jan 16, 2008, 07:53 PM
I've never seen a neck lanyard for a laptop, maybe you should consider a different way of carrying it?

I just wanted to point out that there are persons out there for whom carrying a 5 pound laptop is an unhealthy strain on their shoulder and neck muscles because of prior damages to those parts of the body. But I guess it's much more fun ridiculing other people...

Rendwich
Jan 16, 2008, 07:54 PM
While your post was inconceivable replete with examples of ignorance and faulty logic, this one example leapt out at me.

As someone who travels ALL the time, the possibility or even fractional potential of less weight in the briefcase that I have lugged through most North American airports excites me to a state that is almost sexual. Really!!!!

Go back under your bridge Troll.

Not a single substantiative reply because you have none. And is it surprising that you get sexually excited about the possibility of dropping 2 pounds in carrying weight? No, you'll spend 1800 bucks instead of losing two pounds of your beer belly and carrying a functional computer.

Then the inevitable troll-accusation. My reasons are clear, you have no response, the majority of forum posters agree that the MacBook Air is a bad idea. When the MacBook Air goes down in flames not seen since the Cube, I expect a full apology.

Get a clue and get in the weight room, wimp.

badNameErr
Jan 16, 2008, 07:56 PM
Now I have to decide if I am going to take dramatic hits in price and features to save 2 pounds.

Your 100% correct. But THAT is the point of the product! Welcome to the wonderful world of marketing!

And dude, don't get me started on Apples (over)pricing policies.
If price was really an issue we'd all be running on windoze. lol

Get a clue and get in the weight room, wimp.

Chill out Rendwich. :cool: We're all Mac users here - we can all get along. Be nice.

dsnort
Jan 16, 2008, 08:01 PM
But the MacBook Air is a realy stupid idea and if that makes them stupid, so be it.

No, you display of ignorance makes you, well, what's the word......DAT


And furthermore, you're ripping everyone because "Apple is offering a product they don't like" as if our personal preferences are irrelevant to our purchases. How come YOUR PERSONAL PROBLEMS are so important and essential? Are you more important than everyone who can see what a dud the MacBook Air is?

And are you more important than everyone who likes what they see in the MBA? DAT

And honestly, did you EVER set down a liter of soda (not two liters, one liter) because your neck was too sore? Come on, be slightly realistic and honest for a minute. If 2 pounds causes you pain, the least of your worries is a laptop.

Actually, I have set down a 2 liter of of beverage because of discomfort in some part of my body. It all depends on how far you have to lug it. DAT

I swear, it's the same thing every time. Every Apple event there is a rash of MacRumor "Newbies / M$ Fanbois" that sign and come on the forum to post Trollbait. It's enough to make you believe 24/7 middle school is a good idea!

And in case you were wondering what DAT means, it short for "Dumb A**ed Troll".

jragosta
Jan 16, 2008, 08:02 PM
Not a single substantiative reply because you have none. And is it surprising that you get sexually excited about the possibility of dropping 2 pounds in carrying weight? No, you'll spend 1800 bucks instead of losing two pounds of your beer belly and carrying a functional computer.

Then the inevitable troll-accusation. My reasons are clear, you have no response, the majority of forum posters agree that the MacBook Air is a bad idea. When the MacBook Air goes down in flames not seen since the Cube, I expect a full apology.

Get a clue and get in the weight room, wimp.

It has little to do with fitness. It has to do with not wanting to carry extra weight because it puts strain on the neck and shoulders, or wanting to carry more work rather than a few extra pounds of computers or just plain not wanting to carry a heavy computer.

What gives you the right to say what someone should be willing to pay for?

Your 100% correct. But THAT is the point of the product! Welcome to the wonderful world of marketing!

And dude, don't get me started on Apples (over)pricing policies.
If price was really an issue we'd all be running on windoze. lol

Actually, the MBA is priced quite competitively - about $1K less than the Sony TZ, for example, even though the TZ has a smaller screen and a much slower processor.

For an ultralight, the MBA's price is quite competitive with their competition.

Rendwich
Jan 16, 2008, 08:05 PM
And since I'm carrying a laptop and power adapter on my shoulder through airports > 20 weeks a year, cutting the weight by more than 50% is a great thing.

It's not "more than 50%", it's 40%. 2.0 pounds is 40% of 5.0 pounds, which is what you save with MacBook Air. Adding in the power adapter (which is the same for both) drops it BELOW 40%. Then throw in the optical drive and the extra hard disk, and suddenly it's like 20% or even 0%.

Also, this is TWO POUNDS we're talking about. Do you feel that saving 40 cents of one dollar is a big accomplishment?

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that other people won't. If YOU don't like it, then don't buy it.

I promise you I won't. I waited for almost a year because I wanted a small Macintosh notebook or even sub-notebook. Now it's here and it's hysterically-priced junk. Forgive me for stating the obvious and with the expected disappointment.

Other people are not going to like it either. It has the most overwhelmingly negative response in MacRumors' product history.

There are still The Cube fanatics out there, did you know that? True Believers who swear the The Cube is the best computer Apple ever made. Judging by the Homer comments here, I anticipate a similiar group of unshakeable devotees to emerge as MacBook Air sets sales records for worst Apple product.

TheRuggedLion
Jan 16, 2008, 08:07 PM
Think about two-seater cars, think about eg the Miata. Why do people drive these two-seater cars if they could get four-seater cars for usually less?

Thats a bad analogy. A Miata is cheap, the MBA is not. A corvette is a speed demon, the MBA is not.

Here is a better analogy... Paying MORE for a iPod nano, than an iPod touch, because its smaller and more slim. But it loses out on a whole list of things, screen size, disk space, etc. etc.


A question: When is the next Mac event? I wonder if I should get a MBP now or try to hold off...

Pippen Man
Jan 16, 2008, 08:13 PM
Can't wait until Apple releases an update for the MacBook Air and cripples every early-adopter out there.:rolleyes: At the rate we're going, why not?:(:apple:

jragosta
Jan 16, 2008, 08:13 PM
It's not "more than 50%", it's 40%. 2.0 pounds is 40% of 5.0 pounds, which is what you save with MacBook Air. Adding in the power adapter (which is the same for both) drops it BELOW 40%. Then throw in the optical drive and the extra hard disk, and suddenly it's like 20% or even 0%.

Also, this is TWO POUNDS we're talking about. Do you feel that saving 40 cents of one dollar is a big accomplishment?

First, I was comparing it to the MBP. There are two models - 5.4 lb and 6.8 lb. So the weight reduction is either 44 or 56% - depending on the model you're comparing it to.
And the adapter is NOT the same for both - you can't even get your facts right.
And few people are going to be carrying the optical drive with them. The computer is mainly intended for people who don't need one.
AND, it's $200 less than the least expensive MBP - so you're not paying a premium to save weight, anyway.

So why don't you get the facts right instead of spewing uninformed flames?



I promise you I won't. I waited for almost a year because I wanted a small Macintosh notebook or even sub-notebook. Now it's here and it's hysterically-priced junk. Forgive me for stating the obvious and with the expected disappointment.

Other people are not going to like it either. It has the most overwhelmingly negative response in MacRumors' product history.

There are still The Cube fanatics out there, did you know that? True Believers who swear the The Cube is the best computer Apple ever made. Judging by the Homer comments here, I anticipate a similiar group of unshakeable devotees to emerge as MacBook Air sets sales records for worst Apple product.

SOME people won't like it. Lots of others will.

I'd be interested in your evidence that it has the most overwhelmingly negative response in MacRumors' product history. Just more of your fantasies, I guess.

If the MBA sets sales records, that indicates that people overwhelmingly prefer it over the options. The fact that YOU don't like it doesn't change that.

Personally, I don't expect it to set sales records. I think it will do quite well as a niche product - which is all that anyone has been saying. For people who value weight enough to make up for the tradeoffs, it's a great product. If you don't, there are still the MB and MBP.

What part of that is too difficult for you to comprehend?

Can't wait until Apple releases an update for the MacBook Air and cripples every early-adopter out there.:rolleyes: At the rate we're going, why not?:(:apple:

Why don't you give examples where Apple has released an update and crippled early adopters who hadn't been hacking the thing?

Rendwich
Jan 16, 2008, 08:15 PM
It has little to do with fitness. It has to do with not wanting to carry extra weight because it puts strain on the neck and shoulders, or wanting to carry more work rather than a few extra pounds of computers or just plain not wanting to carry a heavy computer.

Who knew business travel was a blue-collar steveadore position? "Oh, the weight! Oh the neck and shoulder strain!" Maybe you should count your blessings and your pennies as you drive or fly around, spending the vast majority of your life SITTING DOWN not standing up?

The whole thing is comical, who knew that computer-using professionals were destroying their bodies by carrying 5 pounds instead of 3? It's hysterical.

What gives you the right to say what someone should be willing to pay for?

We have free speech in my country, how about yours? It's in our Constitution. And to turn the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" non-argument around: If you don't like what I type, don't read it. I never questioned your right to support this hilarious product. Stick to the issues if you want to discuss them, walk away if you don't. Just don't start attacking my rights. I'll defend my own, as well as yours, with my life.

Why don't you give examples where Apple has released an update and crippled early adopters who hadn't been hacking the thing?

Where "hacking" is defined as "installing my own programs, legally purchased or written, on my own legally-purchased hardware". Have you considered a position in the BSA?

badNameErr
Jan 16, 2008, 08:16 PM
For an ultralight, the MBA's price is quite competitive with their competition.

True, but I've no doubt that the margin will be very fat nonetheless.

NAG
Jan 16, 2008, 08:23 PM
Next you'll tell us that downloading music over torrent is just borrowing it until you decide if you actually want to buy it.

Seriously, get an attitude adjustment. Attacking people because you don't like something is petty.

jackifus
Jan 16, 2008, 08:28 PM
Since no one is talking about SSD performance at all - I'm assuming it wouldn't make an appreciable difference ...

am I wrong here?

Jack

dmr727
Jan 16, 2008, 08:29 PM
Hmm...12 posts, all today. Yeah, he's not a troll. Really. :rolleyes:

dsnort
Jan 16, 2008, 08:35 PM
Not a single substantiative reply because you have none. And is it surprising that you get sexually excited about the possibility of dropping 2 pounds in carrying weight?

And again, your ignorance and lack of intellectual acumen shows itself. The fact that I only took time to dispute ONE of you arguments in a substantive way does not invalidate that argument

No, you'll spend 1800 bucks instead of losing two pounds of your beer belly and carrying a functional computer.

Well, while I COULD spare a couple of pounds from the middle, (but no more than 5 or I'll be asked to be on "American Gladiators" again!), I certainly can spare the $1800, or even the $3300, for a computer. When you grow up, you may be able to command such finances, (but only if you work hard to develop your intellectual capabilities beyond the point you have so far exhibited).

Then the inevitable troll-accusation.

The truth is inevitable, it WILL out.

Get a clue and get in the weight room, wimp.

Your so cute when your angry, the way your pimples quiver!

Chill out Rendwich. :cool: We're all Mac users here - we can all get along. Be nice.

No we're not. There are trolls about.




So why don't you get the facts right instead of spewing uninformed flames?


It's just the nature of the troll.

neversink
Jan 16, 2008, 08:38 PM
It's a great product but I'll never buy one because it would become an aggravating computer for all the reasons mentioned including.

* Only one USB slot
* No Fire wire 400 or 800 (I thought Apple was innovative, not regressive)
* No DVD drive (Why do i want to buy an external one when I can get one of MB or MBP???)
* Slower drives, less storage space. Hello, what am i missing here???
* Slower processors than other MBs or MBPs.
* No connection to ethernet. (Why do I need to buy this when it comes standard on every computer.)
* And the worst offense: THE BATTERY IS SOLDERED IN SO I CAN'T CARRY SPARES WITH ME WHEN I GO TO AFRICA AND HAVE TO WAIT DAYS SOMETIMES TO GET A RECHARGE. Then I have to give my machine back to Apple to replace the battery. RIDICULOUS!!!! STUPID!!! And certainly NOT innovative.

Yes, it's a beautiful machine, but it needs a lot of revamping (such as including everything that is missing.) And I need those extra batteries that I can rely on when I travel. :mad:

I realize that some people will just purchase this because they have to have the newest and coolest product....

Me, an MBP suits me fine. it has nearly everything I need and is easy to work with and to work on..... I know I would be frustrated with the "Air."

And Macs aren't supposed to be frustrating!!!!!!!!

jonswan
Jan 16, 2008, 08:41 PM
Wow, this thread's full of bile.

The facts are that we haven't seen the damn thing in the flesh yet to make a final judgement on it.

Also, it clearly is not what most people were either wanting or expecting. Same goes for me. I wanted something slightly thinner than my 12in Powerbook - and what we got was something completely different.

Fact is most people's comments have been negative - mine will be more of the same. No optical drive is, in my opinion, a step too far right now. Also, a lack of ports. Also no replaceable battery looks a bit weird considering the target market.

I'm not buying one. My powerbook G4 will soldier on no doubt.

I just still can't believe they just didn't make the MBP smaller, with a 12 inch option - why the quantum leap? And where are the updates to the completely outdated MBP anyway? And where's the redesign on the MB that stops you from slitting your wrists on the sharp edges? etc. etc.

NYmacAttack
Jan 16, 2008, 08:44 PM
I still dont know why people are so upset. No one is forcing you to buy this new product. If the MBP or MB is better in your minds then you can buy them. The one reson the MBA is great is because its a sign of what can come from Apple in the future. No risks taken in design and we would still have 8lb "laptops" Yea the REV 1 isnt perfect but it can only get better, IMHO.

dsnort
Jan 16, 2008, 08:44 PM
The facts are that we haven't seen the damn thing in the flesh yet to make a final judgement on it.

Now there ya go, disrupting a fine flamewar with trollbait by talking sense!

jragosta
Jan 16, 2008, 08:45 PM
Me, an MBP suits me fine. it has nearly everything I need and is easy to work with and to work on..... I know I would be frustrated with the "Air."

And Macs aren't supposed to be frustrating!!!!!!!!

That's nice. Then don't buy the Air.

If this were the only computer Apple offered, it would be a problem. But it's not - they offer different computers for different needs. None of the things you cited as problems are issues for the target audience.

Goliath
Jan 16, 2008, 08:46 PM
Had the Macbook Air been released here in the UK at comparable US pricing I would have been first in line- $1799 at current exchange rates would equate to £900 (I know sales tax is added to US pricing and varies between states) but the UK pricing is £1,199 which at current exchange rates equates to $2,400

It's a shame 'cos it would be a reasonably priced laptop in the UK, for what it is, if the price was closer to the £900 mark

Rendwich
Jan 16, 2008, 08:46 PM
First, I was comparing it to the MBP. There are two models - 5.4 lb and 6.8 lb. So the weight reduction is either 44 or 56% - depending on the model you're comparing it to.

The price comparison is close, but the performance comparison is SO FAR OFF that it's not even worth considering. I wasn't comparing this thing to "a great computer for a similar price", I was comparing it to "a better computer for a much lower price". Sorry for the confusion. Either way you slice it, the Pro or the regular MacBook, the Air comes out the loser on many, many fronts. It does come out a winner on weight, but unfortunately I think that's the only one. I guess the backlit keyboard is a winner vs. MacBook.

As for your percents, you round 44% to 40% and 56% to 60%, and in neither case do you get 50%. If you take the *average* then you're perfect, but unfortunately the *average* is not a tangible item. It doesn't exist and you can't carry it through an airport.


And the adapter is NOT the same for both - you can't even get your facts right.

What's the weight difference, then? 2 ounces? 3 ounces? Do tell! Again, you are quibbling about TINY amounts of weight to justify this whole product.

And few people are going to be carrying the optical drive with them. The computer is mainly intended for people who don't need one.

How are you going to put programs and data on it? Through the USB port? If you are worth 40 bucks an hour (low estimate) then you just lost at least 120 bucks to put the software you need on the computer through USB.

Wi-Fi? Slower, although 802.11/n is certainly a big improvement. Do you have access to an 802.11/n Wi-Fi connection in your business?

Cell-Phone modem? Come back in a few days.

The real point is that EVERYONE needs an optical drive, at least on occasion. There's no way around it. The OS comes pre-installed. The first time an upgrade fails or you do something to wreck your OS installation, you are going to lose the use of your computer for a *minimum* of one day to reinstall the OS.

There is no ethernet jack. There is no ethernet jack. There is no ethernet jack. There is no optical drive. There is no optical drive. There is no optical drive.

AND, it's $200 less than the least expensive MBP - so you're not paying a premium to save weight, anyway.

You're paying a premium in features and performance in your preferred comparison. The two computers are not even close to comparable. I bet the Geekbench score for a MacBook Pro is twice that of an Air. Just an guess based on the hardware differences, you can call me out if I'm wrong.

So if you LIKE paying all the price for half the performance to save a maximum of 2.6 pounds, then by all means, go for it. Just don't ask me to keep a straight face.

So why don't you get the facts right instead of spewing uninformed flames?

Which "facts" are you referring to? That the Air offers half the performance for all the price? Is that not a fact? That the Air is missing essential features which are necessary for computer use in 2008? Is that not a fact?

I'd be interested in your evidence that it has the most overwhelmingly negative response in MacRumors' product history. Just more of your fantasies, I guess.

I can't point you to a URL, but if you've seen any CPU release from Apple which has a worse early response, do mention it by name. If you are calling me a liar, demonstrate it. Otherise, an apology is in order. Anyone who reads this site regularly CANNOT HELP to notice the thunderous and overwhelming disapproval for the Air. It's unavoidable.

If the MBA sets sales records, that indicates that people overwhelmingly prefer it over the options. The fact that YOU don't like it doesn't change that.

I totally agree, let's see how it does. I will openly admit I was totally wrong if that happens. I'm not holding my breath.

Personally, I don't expect it to set sales records. I think it will do quite well as a niche product - which is all that anyone has been saying. For people who value weight enough to make up for the tradeoffs, it's a great product. If you don't, there are still the MB and MBP.

What part of that is too difficult for you to comprehend?

Suddenly you contend that Air is a niche product, while mentioning sales records in the previous paragraph! Suddenly I contended that all current Apple laptops are bad, though I never said anything remotely close, nor would I!

Every part of that is too difficult for me to comprehend.

badNameErr
Jan 16, 2008, 08:47 PM
I just still can't believe they just didn't make the MBP smaller, with a 12 inch option - why the quantum leap?

I remember reading (somewhere, years ago) that the 12inch PB didn't sell very well. Don't know if that was true though (I still love mine). Perhaps that is the reason????.


There is no ethernet jack. There is no ethernet jack. There is no ethernet jack.

Spend $29 on the USB->Ethernet adaptor, maybe?

(ducks)

Rendwich
Jan 16, 2008, 09:00 PM
Spend $29 on the USB->Ethernet adaptor, maybe?

(ducks)

The only way into your Air through a wire is USB, so no matter what you clip onto the outside, you're limited to USB speeds. If you want to use an external mouse (not crazy at all) while the transfer is in progress, you need a USB hub, which is going to slow it down even more.

cthorp
Jan 16, 2008, 09:04 PM
Meanwhile, MS breaks ground with revolutionary designs of their own:-) The image below is from one of Microsoft's partners, Ego Computers.

http://www.imagecows.com/uploads/3bb9-tulipego-diamond-laptop-01.jpg

We really don't have it that bad over in the Mac universe.

Cameron

jragosta
Jan 16, 2008, 09:08 PM
The only way into your Air through a wire is USB, so no matter what you clip onto the outside, you're limited to USB speeds. If you want to use an external mouse (not crazy at all) while the transfer is in progress, you need a USB hub, which is going to slow it down even more.

I guess I didn't realize that you were a starving, homeless person who couldn't afford a wireless network.

Sorry.

Spend $29 on the USB->Ethernet adaptor, maybe?

(ducks)

Or use WiFi? Heck, almost every homeowner I know has WiFi.

Maybe we should petition Apple and demand that they start putting floppy drives in all their computers while we're complaining.

AidenShaw
Jan 16, 2008, 09:09 PM
Meanwhile, MS breaks ground with revolutionary designs of their own:-) The image below is from one of Microsoft's partners, Ego Computers.

http://www.imagecows.com/uploads/3bb9-tulipego-diamond-laptop-01.jpg

We really don't have it that bad over in the Mac universe.

Cameron


No?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/IBook_flavors.jpg/250px-IBook_flavors.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Clamshell_iBook_G3.jpg/200px-Clamshell_iBook_G3.jpg

By the way, I found those images right away by searching for "toilet seat ibook"....

And who can forget

http://www.macobserver.com/images/news/2001/20010221imacs/deadpetals.gif and http://www.macobserver.com/images/news/2001/20010221imacs/dog.gif

dsnort
Jan 16, 2008, 09:13 PM
I guess I didn't realize that you were a starving, homeless person who couldn't afford a wireless network.

Sorry.

Mommy and Daddy haven't sprung for WiFi yet.

cthorp
Jan 16, 2008, 09:15 PM
It's not a value judgement on the design. The point is, the clamshell iBook is 8 years old! It shows MS trying to copy what was once cutting edge.

When I said we don't have it that bad, I meant it is better to lead than to follow.

Cameron

sas76
Jan 16, 2008, 09:15 PM
Maybe for you. Fortunately, you're not the entire computer market.

Lots of people like the fact that they can get a nice sized screen on a Mac with a 3 lb computer and none of the removed things matter to them. Personally, I couldn't care less about Ethernet, Firewire, optical drive, multiple USB ports, etc on a laptop. And since I'm carrying a laptop and power adapter on my shoulder through airports > 20 weeks a year, cutting the weight by more than 50% is a great thing.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that other people won't. If YOU don't like it, then don't buy it.


50% of what.... 6lb You will just put something extra in the bag now. Say an extra pair of shoes and maybe some shorts, water bottle or two.

No wonder more people are becoming obese (I am not directing this at jragosta just a general observation) , complaining about carrying 6lb.

Rendwich
Jan 16, 2008, 09:16 PM
And again, your ignorance and lack of intellectual acumen shows itself. The fact that I only took time to dispute ONE of you arguments in a substantive way does not invalidate that argument

What about the total lack of a rebuttal? Does that invalidate it?

Well, while I COULD spare a couple of pounds from the middle, (but no more than 5 or I'll be asked to be on "American Gladiators" again!)

Okay, now you've gone completely stupid. A few posts ago you were complaining about an extra 2 pounds, now you're an American Gladiator?! LMAO! If you think I believe anything you say which I cannot check independently, think again. You're full of crap.

I certainly can spare the $1800, or even the $3300, for a computer. When you grow up, you may be able to command such finances, (but only if you work hard to develop your intellectual capabilities beyond the point you have so far exhibited).

Okay, Mr. Gladiator-Who-Must-Shed-Two-Pounds-Of-Computer-Weight:

1) I retired at age 27 and I've spent my time since then travelling the world. I'm in good shape but I'm short and I'm older (40). I have no money problems at all, but my experience has clearly demonstrated that having money is convenient but hardly the guarantee of a happy life. I can give you financial advice if you need it, because I found that being retired was the best decision I ever made. It was possible because of my "intellectual capabilities" which are being attacked by you.

2) "Intellectual capabilities" are a gift from God. We can improve them a very small amount by hard work, but not very much. There is no amount of work you can do to become significantly smarter, nor can I. We can definitely learn from experience, but some learn more than others. I learned that you're full of crap when you talk about 2 pounds saving your life, then you mention that you were asked to be on American Gladiators. I have that much "intellectual capability" at present, here in my 4000 square foot home which is totally paid for on the Oregon coast.

I'm not getting into a pissing contest, I'm calling you an obvious liar. Two pounds is of no concern to an American Gladiator whatsoever. I hope your REAL life is successful and happy, and that you're loved by your family and friends. I really do.

It's just the nature of the troll.

Yes, you're definitely giving a lesson on the nature of the troll. I'm very sorry I don't like the MacBook Air, and that I expect it to be Apple's worst bomb in a decade. I'm very sorry that I don't like Apple wrecking third-party programs on the iPhone with every update.

I've been a Mac user since the 128K and I will continue to be one *until something better comes along*. Right now, it's the best OS and it has been since my teenage years.

But it's not my religion. It's my computer. If something better comes along, I'll use it.

AidenShaw
Jan 16, 2008, 09:22 PM
Or use WiFi? Heck, almost every homeowner I know has WiFi.

Right, I guess that after buying a house one probably has the money to spend a couple of hundred on networking.

Too bad about the renters, students and others who need to think about every $10 and $20 bill that they spend.


It's not a value judgement on the design. The point is, the clamshell iBook is 8 years old! It shows MS trying to copy what was once cutting edge.

Cameron

Are you really so paranoid or blinded by hate that you believe that Microsoft is involved in every hardware design produced by the hundreds of companies that are building systems with Intel components?

Rendwich
Jan 16, 2008, 09:28 PM
I guess I didn't realize that you were a starving, homeless person who couldn't afford a wireless network.

Sorry.

I guess I didn't realize you couldn't understand the English words "through a wire".

Sorry.

USB 2.0 has a max of 480 Mb/sec.
802.11g has a max of 54 Mb/sec.

So you geniuses go on with your Wi-Fi on your MacBook Air. The USB --> Ethernet guy will finish while you're just getting started. And he won't be happy because it still takes too long on USB.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you called me "uninformed" and then posted this trash.

ekdor
Jan 16, 2008, 09:28 PM
-

cornercuttin
Jan 16, 2008, 09:30 PM
i am not an apple fanboy, but a realistic human being who applies logic to his decisions. that allows me to realize that the macbook air is nothing but a sexy piece of crap.

for the same price, one can get a great macbook pro, and for just a few hundred bucks more, one can get a crazy nice macbook pro. the macbooks blow this thing away.

the only people who would buy one of these things are one of three different types of people: people with enough money that they can drop a couple grand and laugh it off, apple fanbois who would buy a polished turd if apple released one, and idiots.

dont get me wrong. i love apple. i think they do some very innovative things. i go way back with them. i am writing this post on an old power mac G5! i've had an imac that looked like the top half of r2d2 with a screen attached to it. i've had the ipods. i have an iphone. i've bought people in my family imacs and ibooks. i wanted to take a dump on my iphone and send it to steve jobs in an envelope when i heard we have to actually pay for ringtones, but i bought all of my apple gear because either there was nothing better, or the next thing out there that was better was way too expensive. but come on! the macbook air?!!

if you are seriously trying to say that the macbook air is great because it is portable, then grow an effin backbone and learn to carry around a few pounds. the macbook air is 1/4" thinner than a macbook pro (at the macbook air's thickest point). it may be a pound or 2 lighter, but so what. if you are seriously going to complain about carry around 3 or 4 pounds, then you need a macbook pro with a weight tied to it so that you can build up some muscle on those scrawny arms. my wife carries around a purse the size of a small child and doesn't complain for Christ's sake! my grandmother has a purse that is almost as big as the friggin towncar she drives! many people increased the size of their phone by switching to the iphone, but now, for some reason, size matters...

and you know what? 1/2 the people out there with these super-portable macbook airs will have their little laptop bag with them with the superdrive and external ethernet accessories.

for the money, this thing is just not economical. for those who actually want it, say what you are really thinking and quit trying to justify your decisions. the thing is sexy and cool, and that is it. it is an overpriced, thin, underpowered macbook. you want it because it is cute and sexy, just like the iPod mini. in fact, that's what they should've called it... the macbook mini. but it's a computer. but if you are making laptop choices based upon coolness and sexiness, use the money and get a gym membership, get some exercise, get a tan, buy some trendy clothes, and you will be way sexier than this laptop will ever make you.

if the price was at least midway between that of a macbook and a macbook pro, i would be a lot more convinced, but it's not. don't say that it is comparable to sony's thin laptop, or whatever. money talks. and when comparing the money to other apple laptops, this thing is a bad decision.

apple has figured it out. they have figured out how to manipulate a group of people into buying whatever they release and praising it to no end. how they got so many of you to buy into it, i will never know.

badNameErr
Jan 16, 2008, 09:32 PM
I've spent my time since then travelling the world.

Five star hotels and cabs from the airport, right?

If you've ever really traveled (I mean you've carried your life on your back) you'd understand that every pound you carry counts.

That is my argument. 'nuff said.

jragosta
Jan 16, 2008, 09:35 PM
Right, I guess that after buying a house one probably has the money to spend a couple of hundred on networking.

Too bad about the renters, students and others who need to think about every $10 and $20 bill that they spend.

If they can't afford a $50 wireless router, they're not likely to be buying a $1800 laptop, are they?

I guess it was assumed that Apple's target for any of their computers was not the dirt poor, can't afford any more than macaroni and cheese crowd.

jragosta
Jan 16, 2008, 09:38 PM
I guess I didn't realize you couldn't understand the English words "through a wire".

Sorry.

I guess I didn't realize that you were too stupid to realize that there was no reason to use a wire when something better was available.

And if you're too cheap to buy a $50 router, then feel free to buy a different computer.

jragosta
Jan 16, 2008, 09:40 PM
the only people who would buy one of these things are one of three different types of people: people with enough money that they can drop a couple grand and laugh it off, apple fanbois who would buy a polished turd if apple released one, and idiots.

Or a person who has to travel reguarly and doesn't wish to carry any more weight than they have to.

Why is it that you seem to forget the obvious target audience?

cornercuttin
Jan 16, 2008, 09:45 PM
If you've ever really traveled (I mean you've carried your life on your back) you'd understand that every pound you carry counts.

That is my argument. 'nuff said.

if you are carrying your life on your back, then you wont mind an extra pound or two. you probably wouldnt notice the difference. and if you are carrying your life around with you, in the case of the macbook air, you are still going to need your superdrive accessory, ethernet accessory, and probably an external hard drive because of the air's puny storage capacity.

how puny are you people? granted, i am 6'3", 300 pounds, and i about the size and build as your average college lineman, but that is because i go to the gym 5 times a week and stay healthy. how is an extra pound or 2 going to make a difference, especially when just about the same volume of space is being used? like i said, my grandma carries a massive purse with a ton of crap in it. hell, my other grandma carried her .357 magnum in her purse (this is oklahoma...), and never complained, and that thing weighed more than she did!

AidenShaw
Jan 16, 2008, 09:50 PM
Five star hotels and cabs from the airport, right?

Is there any other way to travel?
</sarcasm>


If you've ever really traveled (I mean you've carried your life on your back) you'd understand that every pound you carry counts.

Exactly. And exactly why the MBA is DOA.

The killer is the non-replaceable battery. I have a Dell with a replaceable battery (of course the Dell has replaceable batteries - but is the MBA the first laptop ever without a replaceable battery?). The Dell also has a drive bay, so that I can put a 2nd battery into the DVD drive slot.

When I travel, when I count the pounds I'll make sure that I can carry spare batteries to stay running on the biggest power gaps of the trip - whether that's a 20 hour series of plane flights or two days in the hill country of Thailand with kerosene lights at the "hotel".

Maybe if APC produces an "Air" adaptor for their external battery products (http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=358) I could consider an "Air". But with the probable 2 to 2 1/2 hour life of the internal battery - it's simply not worth considering.

And, I expect, that a lot of "power business execs" will come to the same conclusion - that a laptop that won't last a typical meeting without being plugged in is not on the list.

Time to check out the IdeaPad U110 (http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=4182), 8 hours on a replaceable battery....

iRabbit
Jan 16, 2008, 09:51 PM
how puny are you people? granted, i am 6'3", 300 pounds, and i about the size and build as your average college lineman, but that is because i go to the gym 5 times a week and stay healthy. how is an extra pound or 2 going to make a difference, especially when just about the same volume of space is being used? like i said, my grandma carries a massive purse with a ton of crap in it. hell, my other grandma carried her .357 magnum in her purse (this is oklahoma...), and never complained, and that thing weighed more than she did!

While I understand what you're saying and myself think the Macbook is already small enough, that doesn't mean I can't see the value in even smaller, thinner and lighter for someone else. It doesn't matter how "puny" anyone is, or what your grandma carried in her purse... if it's important to someone else that their laptop be as small, thin and light as possible why not just respect that opinion even though you disagree for YOURSELF?

Not everyone wanted an iPhone. Not everyone wanted an iPod. Not everyone see the value in Time Capsure. Some of us have multiple laptops, some of us don't have one at all. Some like the Macbook while others prefer the Pro. And guess what? Some will like the Air. Why even argue it?

dmr727
Jan 16, 2008, 10:01 PM
USB 2.0 has a max of 480 Mb/sec.
802.11g has a max of 54 Mb/sec.

So you geniuses go on with your Wi-Fi on your MacBook Air. The USB --> Ethernet guy will finish while you're just getting started. And he won't be happy because it still takes too long on USB.

So you're saying that transferring data from an optical drive is a lot faster than 480Mbit/s USB? Ummm...okay.

badNameErr
Jan 16, 2008, 10:01 PM
When I travel, when I count the pounds I'll make sure that I can carry spare batteries to stay running on the biggest power gaps of the trip - whether that's a 20 hour series of plane flights or two days in the hill country of Thailand with kerosene lights at the "hotel".

I hear you (and respect your opinion). I used to travel with extra batteries but I just got sick of it - I've never been able to get enough time out of them to justify it. I just wait till I'm in a location where I can recharge and (if I'm lucky) get on the net and leave it at that. Its a PITA sometimes but I'm happy with that setup. Different strokes, different folks.

NAG
Jan 16, 2008, 10:03 PM
Is there any other way to travel?
</sarcasm>




Exactly. And exactly why the MBA is DOA.

The killer is the non-replaceable battery. I have a Dell with a replaceable battery (of course the Dell has replaceable batteries - but is the MBA the first laptop ever without a replaceable battery?). The Dell also has a drive bay, so that I can put a 2nd battery into the DVD drive slot.

When I travel, when I count the pounds I'll make sure that I can carry spare batteries to stay running on the biggest power gaps of the trip - whether that's a 20 hour series of plane flights or two days in the hill country of Thailand with kerosene lights at the "hotel".

Maybe if APC produces an "Air" adaptor for their external battery products (http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=358) I could consider an "Air". But with the probable 2 to 2 1/2 hour life of the internal battery - it's simply not worth considering.

And, I expect, that a lot of "power business execs" will come to the same conclusion - that a laptop that won't last a typical meeting without being plugged in is not on the list.

Time to check out the IdeaPad U110 (http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=4182), 8 hours on a replaceable battery....

You might want to consider that there are new rules on how many batteries you can carry with you while flying now. At 5 hours usage with the network running (Apple's figures so it might be more or less) I honestly don't see the problem. People always complain about integrated batteries but people still buy them anyway (the iPod would have been DOA if this reason actually mattered).

imacdaddy
Jan 16, 2008, 10:03 PM
Not having a replaceable battery on an iPod is acceptable
Not having a replaceable battery on an iPhone is very annoying
Not having a replaceable battery on a laptop is unacceptable and down right idiotic

Look people, please try to understand where Apple is coming from. With all of the exploding batteries in mobile phones and laptops making the headlines these past few years, it's only natural for a company to protect themselves from lawsuits. What better way than to prevent user intervention, prevent replaceable battery by end users.

Its going to kill sales.

Sure...4M iPhones in 200 days.

dsnort
Jan 16, 2008, 10:06 PM
What about the total lack of a rebuttal? Does that invalidate it?

I specifically refuted one of your assertions, that you don't get that, I can't help. I found that my MacBook was much easier to carry around just based on it's slimmer profile, although it weighed the same as the Dell Inspiron it replaced. As I have at times travelled without a computer, I can easily calculate what the loss of weight would mean.



Okay, now you've gone completely stupid. A few posts ago you were complaining about an extra 2 pounds, now you're an American Gladiator?! LMAO! If you think I believe anything you say which I cannot check independently, think again. You're full of crap.

You should be laughing. The American Gladiator thing was obviously a joke, something else that went over your head. While I am 6'1", and in good shape, I have never been invited to be involved in American Gladiators. And if you think you have a problem believing anything I say, then you should understand how I feel about this next statement of yours.


1) I retired at age 27 and I've spent my time since then travelling the world.

By the way, I never claimed to be wealthy, just financially secure enough that a $3000 + expenditure for a computer wasn't a concern. If you claim retired at 27, I'm thinking trust fund, or your parents despaired of keeping you employed and decided to let you mooch.

2) "Intellectual capabilities" are a gift from God. We can improve them a very small amount by hard work, but not very much. There is no amount of work you can do to become significantly smarter, nor can I. We can definitely learn from experience, but some learn more than others. I learned that you're full of crap when you talk about 2 pounds saving your life, then you mention that you were asked to be on American Gladiators. I have that much "intellectual capability" at present, here in my 4000 square foot home which is totally paid for on the Oregon coast.

But it's so informative how much experience informs intellect.

Yes, you're definitely giving a lesson on the nature of the troll. I'm very sorry I don't like the MacBook Air, and that I expect it to be Apple's worst bomb in a decade. I'm very sorry that I don't like Apple wrecking third-party programs on the iPhone with every update.

As I pointed out in another post, this forum is infamous for "brand new members" attacking every new Apple release. Sorry if I mis-id'd you, but if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck........

And as for the iPhone, I'm sorry if you missed the oft posted and expounded upon point that it was locked to a single provider and closed to the third party development.

jragosta
Jan 16, 2008, 10:19 PM
I guess I didn't realize you couldn't understand the English words "through a wire".

Sorry.

USB 2.0 has a max of 480 Mb/sec.
802.11g has a max of 54 Mb/sec.

So you geniuses go on with your Wi-Fi on your MacBook Air. The USB --> Ethernet guy will finish while you're just getting started. And he won't be happy because it still takes too long on USB.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you called me "uninformed" and then posted this trash.


What about the 802.11n that's in the MBA?

Uninformed? Sure. You thought it was the same power adapter as the MBP and apparently weren't aware that it has 802.11n.

Oh, and if the USB is fast enough for it, it's an option, too.

latestmonkey
Jan 16, 2008, 10:23 PM
The Cube was a truly awesome Mac. A totally silent desktop computer is a thing of wonder. Yet it bombed. You couldn't expand it in any meaningful way, and if you set a book on top of it, it burned up.

It turns out that the market for unexpandable desktop computers which burn up if you set something on top of them is too small. So The Cube is no more.

But afte a LONG hiatus of useable, justifiable, sustainable products, APPLE IS BACK and it's back with with a vengance: Macbook Air!

Design Point 1: Thinness

Thinness is good with a your supermodels, your credit cards (credit blocks never caught on), your mints in Monty Python's *The Meaning of Life*. Thinness is good for laptops, too. TO A POINT. The real question is not "2D or 3D?" The real question is "How THICK can this be before I won't buy it?". For me, the answer to that question is "about 1.5 in/3.3 cm". That's the question Apple COMPLETELY MISSED. They made a wreck of a computer, but it's really, really thin.

Design: Point 2: Width and Height

Calling this an "ultraportable" is a joke. It has a 13.3" screen which is hardly "ultraportable". They have large, noticeable gaps between the keys which makes the keyboard bigger than any "ultraportable". It's 9in x 13in with a HUGE screen bezel and *significant* border on both sides of the keyboard. Despite being stupidly thin, it's not stupidly portable. So they blew it, plain and simple. You can't buy this if you need a small computer.

Design Point 3: Portless for Her Pleasure

Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who buys a computer with NO ETHERNET JACK for EIGHTEEN HUNDRED DOLLARS in 2008 is a total and complete tool. The first time you have to do ANYTHING with a CD or DVD through your USB port, you are going to cry a river of regretful tears. It will literally take 7 hours to put 80GB of data through a USB 2.0 port. Don't believe me? Try it. That means putting a 760MB CD onto your Macbook Air will take... wait for it... wait for it... 4 minutes!! HA HA HA!

Design Point 4: Assault on Battery

For a mere work-week of your life, and 7 percent of the cost of the computer, Apple will replace your battery. Don't try this at home, kids. You'll void your warrantee and you can't find the battery anywhere else, either.

Design Point 5: Size Matters

The HD is 80 GB, which is a good size for an iPod. It's NOT A GOOD SIZE for a computer in 2008! It's a joke. So you want to add more storage? Great, you'll be doing it through.. wait for it... wait for... USB! HA HA HA (see above)!! The SSD is awesome and sexy and it adds a mere FOURTEEN HUNDRED DOLLARS to the price. You can get a 32 GB flash drive for about $400, so you do the math. Hint: It's overpriced by SIX HUNDRED DOLLARS.

Design Point 6: Battering RAM

They soldered the RAM to the motherboard and there are no expansion slots. This is 2008 not 1988. To take a bigger step backward, they'd have to re-release the Mac Portable.

Design Point 7: The Short Bus

The processor is hugely underwhelming, probably for heat reasons. It's not easy being thin! If Macbook Air is a thin supermodel, the custom CPU is the slimming, heat-free methamphetamine.

Design Point 8: The Name's the Thing

Worst ever. The company is called "Apple", did they forget that?

Design Point 9: Black and Silver is Good

For the Oakland Raiders. It's not good for a Dell, an HP, or a MAC. So industrial and bland and ovelookable, it could have easily been designed by a Microsoft employee. When I heard that Johnathan Ives signed off on this, I realized that all good things must come to an end.

Conclusions (1-9)

TOO THIN. TOO WIDE. TOO ISOLATED. TOO LOCKED. TOO SMALL. TOO FORGETFUL. TOO STUPID. TOO MISNAMED. TOO UGLY.

This is the first MAJOR misstep for Apple in many years - and after so many shoddy business practices, I am truly enjoying seeing them jump the shark. I had a Mac 128K (!) and they've made a lot of great computers since then. This might be the worst.

Yeah. You're absolutely right. They should just call everyone back to the moscone center and tell everyone they changed their minds and the MBA won't be shipping in two weeks. That team of designers and market researchers should all be shot. They should have just hired you.

I love focus groups of ONE.

tirerim
Jan 16, 2008, 10:30 PM
For all those ridiculing anyone who wants to save two pounds of weight from their computer: ever been backpacking? When you're carrying a forty pound or more pack, two pounds makes a very big difference, which is why you'll see people trying to save every possible ounce on things like stoves, tents, clothing, etc. Now, I'm not suggesting that I would take a laptop out into the wilderness, but when I travel in civilized places I still put everything in a framepack. Wheeled suitcases are just too ungainly and slow when you're hurrying to catch a train. Does that make me a wimp for wanting to make my pack a little lighter?

Now, at the moment my 12" PowerBook is still in good enough shape (even with only a 1 GHz, single-core processor and 1.25 GB RAM) that I don't need to replace it yet, but when the time comes I'll be very glad to get something lighter, and there's a good bet the MBA will be it.

NAG
Jan 16, 2008, 10:47 PM
For all those ridiculing anyone who wants to save two pounds of weight from their computer: ever been backpacking? When you're carrying a forty pound or more pack, two pounds makes a very big difference, which is why you'll see people trying to save every possible ounce on things like stoves, tents, clothing, etc. Now, I'm not suggesting that I would take a laptop out into the wilderness, but when I travel in civilized places I still put everything in a framepack. Wheeled suitcases are just too ungainly and slow when you're hurrying to catch a train. Does that make me a wimp for wanting to make my pack a little lighter?

Now, at the moment my 12" PowerBook is still in good enough shape (even with only a 1 GHz, single-core processor and 1.25 GB RAM) that I don't need to replace it yet, but when the time comes I'll be very glad to get something lighter, and there's a good bet the MBA will be it.

Lucky, mine died in the rainforest. Survived a long time though.

There are lots of little usb hubs for sale. I don't really see the need for a docking station if you just want more usb ports.

Stella
Jan 16, 2008, 10:48 PM
This is a very brave and good design.

remember when Apple went to pure USB - people said - it won't work, there's no parallel ports etc.

This echos the "Air".

No other manufacturer has done what Apple have: its revolutionary. PC manufacturers will be copying the Air in no time.

The only criticism IMO is:
- no drive included (external of course)
- no option for docking station ( i.e, support for extra USB connections ).

Blind sided.

cthorp
Jan 16, 2008, 11:03 PM
Are you really so paranoid or blinded by hate that you believe that Microsoft is involved in every hardware design produced by the hundreds of companies that are building systems with Intel components?

I was making a lighthearted observation.

A director at Microsoft presented the product at CES and mentioned they partnered with a European company called Ego. He directed people who wanted to know more to go to Microsoft.com. It may be MS using the same verbal usage as when the iphone shipped. Steve Balmer said they were already shipping x-amount of smart phones. When Microsoft doesn't even make a phone.

Again it was meant as nothing more than a light hearted antidote after watching the interview with the Microsoft guy. Sorry if I offended you.

Here's a link: http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/03/13/76354_HNhollandsego_1.html

http://www.funponsel.com/blog/archives/2007/01/08/ces-amd-tulip-ego-laptop/

The base pice is $5000.00 and it's AMD based

NYCMacFan
Jan 16, 2008, 11:24 PM
I just don't understand why the MBA doesn't match the competition in size/weight. Again, a Toshiba R500 is 11.1 x 8.5 x 0.77 and 2.375 lbs. Now the R500 is 12inch screen, but includes an optical drive and a ton of ports. Longer battery life and the battery is removable.

How significant is a .74inch MBA over a 0.77 Toshiba that is lighter by 8 ounces (1/6th lighter) and narrower by 1.7 inches. Again, 0.77inches with a removable battery.

They also have a 1.74lb version without the optical drive, an SSD and a smaller battery.

Review here:
http://www.ruggedpcreview.com/3_notebooks_toshiba_r500.html

Note the apple is cheaper, has 2gig of ram, and faster processor. Naturally a wonderful operating system with Apple. But Toshiba has a larger HDD or the same SSD.

Underwhelmed. Yet oddly I'll probably still buy as I want something light with Mac OS.

NAG
Jan 16, 2008, 11:32 PM
Different companies fudge their battery numbers differently. Recently Apple has been giving you more realistic numbers/actually using a network with the backlight on than other companies (in my experience).

NYCMacFan
Jan 16, 2008, 11:32 PM
Okay, also its been like 4 years since the PB 12inch.

In that period we have saved 1.6 lbs with a bit larger of a screen, but no optical drive, no removable battery, many fewer ports.

Wouldn't a PB 12inch with the only change being an LED screen go down to like 4lbs? It would also be say 0.8 or 0.9 inches thick.

So all that engineering and 4 years of advances saved us 1lb and a touch of thickness at the price of more width and length (again if you exclude the LED).

naroola
Jan 16, 2008, 11:43 PM
The Macbook Air is perfect for me. My job requires me to travel almost every week to various locations worldwide. Currently, I have a black Macbook but it's too heavy to carry around the airports along with all the luggage, etc. I don't usually use the DVD drive on the Macbook either, nor do I use more than 1 USB port at a time. If I really need a DVD, I'll just use the provided software to "borrow" a drive from some other computer, which for me will be rare anyways.

As for the battery, I usually get to the airport about 45 minutes before the flight, get through security and board my flight. During taxi, takeoff and landing, you cannot use laptops anyways so on a typical domestic flight, this ends up being 2-3 hours of time that I could use my laptop... which is what my Macbook gives me anyways. If the flight is delayed, then you can easily find plenty of receptacles to charge your laptop - at most airports anyways. I don't think I've removed the battery on my Macbook for the last year and a half.

Things like RAM being soldered, 2GB RAM is more than enough for the market the Macbook Air is geared to - this is not aimed at the pro users/developers. We won't need anymore for at least another 3-4 years, and by that time it's time to replace this machine anyways.

No ethernet is probably the only thing that I don't like. There are quite a few businesses and hotels that don't have Wifi service. I know Apple provides a USB to Ethernet dongle... sure it's slower for intranet use, but usually I only need to VPN to my office, connect to corporate email and the intranet. If you are thinking that you are going to download 5GB files everyday via ethernet, you should consider a Macbook Pro instead. However, this is not a deal-breaker for me.

Things like movie editing, etc. are all done on my iMac at home - thus I neither need a firewire port, nor a super fast 2.8GHz Core-2-Extreme processor on this thing either. The Macbook Air is a bit pricey, but it's so practical for me simply because of its lightweight.

I don't think the Macbook Air is made for the hardcore movie editors, developers, etc. For that, a Macbook Pro, Mac Pro or even an iMac is the machine to have. Even the Macbook doesn't have a dedicated graphics card to run software like FCP as smoothly as people would like to.

The Macbook Air is not aimed for pro users. People who are bashing the Macbook Air should consider that the Macbook Pro is still sold by Apple. The Macbook Air just adds more choice, a choice that I've been waiting for Apple to release for years.

That's my 2 cents... Thoughts?

naroola
Jan 16, 2008, 11:51 PM
Okay, also its been like 4 years since the PB 12inch.

In that period we have saved 1.6 lbs with a bit larger of a screen, but no optical drive, no removable battery, many fewer ports.

Wouldn't a PB 12inch with the only change being an LED screen go down to like 4lbs? It would also be say 0.8 or 0.9 inches thick.

So all that engineering and 4 years of advances saved us 1lb and a touch of thickness at the price of more width and length (again if you exclude the LED).

Given that the Macbook Air is out, maybe Apple's plans are to scale the Macbook down to a 12" size, keeping mostly everything else intact - Ethernet, DVD drive, etc. Maybe the whole Macbook line will be dropped and they'll call the 12" version Macbook Lite, thus having Macbook Lite, Macbook Air, Macbook Pro.

Guess we'll find out at some point in the future.

cthorp
Jan 16, 2008, 11:56 PM
Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who buys a computer with NO ETHERNET JACK for EIGHTEEN HUNDRED DOLLARS in 2008 is a total and complete tool. The first time you have to do ANYTHING with a CD or DVD through your USB port, you are going to cry a river of regretful tears. It will literally take 7 hours to put 80GB of data through a USB 2.0 port. Don't believe me? Try it. That means putting a 760MB CD onto your Macbook Air will take... wait for it... wait for it... 4 minutes!! HA HA HA!

The HD is 80 GB, which is a good size for an iPod. It's NOT A GOOD SIZE for a computer in 2008! It's a joke. So you want to add more storage? Great, you'll be doing it through.. wait for it... wait for... USB! HA HA HA (see above)!! The SSD is awesome and sexy and it adds a mere FOURTEEN HUNDRED DOLLARS to the price. You can get a 32 GB flash drive for about $400, so you do the math. Hint: It's overpriced by SIX HUNDRED DOLLARS.



I have never had file transfer times of 7 hours for 80 GB. And I have copied quite a bit of data on USB 2.0. How did you arrive at that figure?

I think the SSD drive is $999 not $1400. Which seems inline with competitors. Can't say for sure though.

Thanks.

MacViolinist
Jan 16, 2008, 11:57 PM
My first reaction to the MacBook Air was that it was damn cool . . . but it wasn't for me.

I was looking for the perfect 12" G4 PBOOK killer. MBAir ain't that.

Actually, when it comes down to it, every laptop is a compromise of some sort. I guess I fall into the smallest niche of Apple's market:

I use my portable as a portable when I am traveling, and I use it as a workhorse when I'm at home.

Am I the only one who does this? Maybe I am. I don't give a **** if I can edit video or play sweet games or run the hottest warez when I am out. I just need a network appliance. I need to be able to get from one stupid meeting to another with my meeting stuff.

When I am at home and I want to do stuff, I really want a desktop, not a laptop.

So here's the deal. I'm not some cheap-ass student anymore. I have a job, and it's pretty spiffy. So why compromise?

I just ordered a maxed-out Mac Pro with dual displays, and a maxed out SSD MacBook Air.

No compromises. The best of portable when I want it; best at the desk when I need it.

NYCMacFan
Jan 17, 2008, 12:01 AM
Given that the Macbook Air is out, maybe Apple's plans are to scale the Macbook down to a 12" size, keeping mostly everything else intact - Ethernet, DVD drive, etc. Maybe the whole Macbook line will be dropped and they'll call the 12" version Macbook Lite, thus having Macbook Lite, Macbook Air, Macbook Pro.

Guess we'll find out at some point in the future.

You know the sad thing is I think they are completely right to keep 13inches, full sized keyboard and drop the optical drive and will charge it to work and so am indifferent to price.

It's just that a conventional brick design could have been an inch narrower. Look at the wasted space to the left/right of keyboard. More like 8.5x11.5x0.78 and still 3.0lbs. Personally, I still think this could have been delivered closer to 2.5lbs. (Look at Toshiba and Panasonic for what you can do sub 3lbs and they deliver lots of ports, optical drives and removable batteries. I don't mind lacking those, but expected further weight savings for them.)

Rendwich
Jan 17, 2008, 12:04 AM
I guess I didn't realize that you were too stupid to realize that there was no reason to use a wire when something better was available.

And if you're too cheap to buy a $50 router, then feel free to buy a different computer.

You're an idiot. USB 2.0 is the fastest way to get data into your Air. Even the guy who didn't understand the "death by dongle" of the Air, knew A LOT more than you do. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. There is no current Wi-Fi scheme which can beat USB 2.0, and USB 2.0 was NEVER meant or designed for mass data transfer. It was meant for medium-to-low amounts of bits/sec.

And to respond to your second idiot post, 802.11n has a maximum data transfer rate of 120 Mb/sec. It's FOUR TIMES SLOWER than USB 2.0.

Finally, it does me no good to buy an 802.11n router, then put it in my bag with my Air and ask permission to replace one of the literal MILLIONS of 802.11g routers wherever I happen to need an internet connection.

I am starting to feel sorrow for you. As Wolfgang Pauli famously said, "You're not even wrong."

NYCMacFan
Jan 17, 2008, 12:04 AM
I think the SSD drive is $999 not $1400. Which seems inline with competitors. Can't say for sure though.

I'm ticked with Apple for the MBA (could have been smaller and lighter). But the SSD price is not out of line. Remember it is $899 with educational pricing.

Note that over time as the price falls, Apple's margin will go up. Since they adjust prices only once or twice a year, the SSD option will prove profitable later on. (Even the 2 week wait time to buy saves them a small touch on component prices.)

Rendwich
Jan 17, 2008, 12:13 AM
I have never had file transfer times of 7 hours for 80 GB. And I have copied quite a bit of data on USB 2.0. How did you arrive at that figure?

480 Mbps = 60 MBps

80GB / 60MBps = 1333 s = 37 minutes

That's the maximum possible transfer rate, which no one ever gets. If you're getting close to it, then I applaud you. My estimate might be off by a factor of 2 or even 4, but it's still horrifically slow compared to any internal storage device in the last ten years.

I think the SSD drive is $999 not $1400. Which seems inline with competitors. Can't say for sure though.

I checked at the Apple Store and there it was, $1000. My apologies.

I'm actually very excited about the idea of SSD in general, but it has to be a little more price-competitive before the advantages push me over the purchasing line.

Rendwich
Jan 17, 2008, 12:21 AM
Yeah. You're absolutely right. They should just call everyone back to the moscone center and tell everyone they changed their minds and the MBA won't be shipping in two weeks. That team of designers and market researchers should all be shot. They should have just hired you.

I love focus groups of ONE.

Did I forget to put "Focus Group Results" on my post?! I am SO SORRY. I thought I was posting as myself and not representing anyone else. My mistake. I thought we were supposed to post our honest opinions here, I didn't realize we were only allowed to publish market research and design philosophies.

Despite the best efforts of mice and men, products flop. How do you explain Windows Vista under this justifcation of "teams of designers and market researchers"? Sometimes things are just a bad idea, and sometimes they make it to market anyway. Apple has an incredible record of avoiding dismal failures in the last ten years, but nothing lasts forever.

Enter the MacBook Airball...

naroola
Jan 17, 2008, 12:26 AM
You know the sad thing is I think they are completely right to keep 13inches, full sized keyboard and drop the optical drive and will charge it to work and so am indifferent to price.

It's just that a conventional brick design could have been an inch narrower. Look at the wasted space to the left/right of keyboard. More like 8.5x11.5x0.78 and still 3.0lbs. Personally, I still think this could have been delivered closer to 2.5lbs. (Look at Toshiba and Panasonic for what you can do sub 3lbs and they deliver lots of ports, optical drives and removable batteries. I don't mind lacking those, but expected further weight savings for them.)

Personally, I like the 13-inch size as well. I guess the added weight comes from the aluminum casing, which is probably stronger than plastic, but a bit heavier. However, there are 3 things working for this new Mac compared to the Panasonic and Toshiba... OS X, faster processor (C2D up to 1.8Ghz), and it's just so darn sexy! :cool:

Rendwich
Jan 17, 2008, 12:33 AM
So you're saying that transferring data from an optical drive is a lot faster than 480Mbit/s USB? Ummm...okay.

If you get the theoretical maximum of the USB 2.0 protocol, you'll be fine. But you won't get that. If you have a decent-speed CD drive then it will be waiting for USB. Theoretical maximum speed to fill up your 80 GB hard drive is 37 minutes. Cut that in 1/2 or 1/3 and you'll be very frustrated trying to get data into your Air.

I would love to be wrong, as soon as someone gets an Air in their hands, I'll be happy to hear how well it works with Apple's not-very-fast 24x CD reader which you can get for $200 (!) at their store. My guess (ONLY A GUESS) is that they chose a 24x optical drive because that's the most Mbps they could push through their USB 2.0 port.

dmr727
Jan 17, 2008, 12:48 AM
If you get the theoretical maximum of the USB 2.0 protocol, you'll be fine. But you won't get that. If you have a decent-speed CD drive then it will be waiting for USB. Theoretical maximum speed to fill up your 80 GB hard drive is 37 minutes. Cut that in 1/2 or 1/3 and you'll be very frustrated trying to get data into your Air.

I understand that I'll never get the maximum from the 2.0 specification, however the optical drive shipping with the other Apple laptops reads CDs at 24x, which is basically about 3.5MB/sec. That's about 6% of the maximum for USB. I'm pretty sure USB can handle that. :)

Point is, it might suck for many that there's no optical drive in the MBA, but the speed of USB isn't the problem. Same holds true for ethernet through USB. Unless you were planning on transferring a ton of data between two gigabit ethernet equipped computers, you're not going to saturate the USB either.

Rendwich
Jan 17, 2008, 12:57 AM
By the way, I never claimed to be wealthy, just financially secure enough that a $3000 + expenditure for a computer wasn't a concern. If you claim retired at 27, I'm thinking trust fund, or your parents despaired of keeping you employed and decided to let you mooch.

Keep thinking, Mr. Ha-Ha-Ha-I-Was-Just-Kidding. I will give you something you totally don't deserve, something you are completely unworthy of, and if you have the "intellectual capability" to use it properly, it will change your life. It changed mine. Five words: Options on Heating Oil Futures.

That's all you get, I'm laughing so hard at your "joke" I can't give you more details. And if you somehow manage to NOT get stinking, filthy rich with those five words, I'll be laughing even harder.

holycat
Jan 17, 2008, 01:38 AM
Majority of OLD mac fans complained about this mac book air!
WoW, this is a good thing, you guys will just continue to buy macbook or macbook pro instead of macbook air. The sales of both mb and mbp wont drop by the introducing of mba! Smart marketing plan!

But, Apple MBA targeted on other groups of user like businessmen/executive who don't do much multimedia editing which need a reliable stable machine (MAC OS) and those who want a portable Mac operating machine. Moreover, compare to SONY and Fujitsu ultraportable, i have confident that MBA perform better.

So, just ignore mba if u r not that group of user. U can still buy macbook or macbook pro! Accepting the truth that MBA are not ur cup of tea! Jz like some1 prefer sexy slim lady although they might not smart n nice enough jz like mba, some1 prefer super nice n smart lady like mbp (although not slim enough), some1 jz prefer a normal well balance lady like macbook! Ok, I know you guys are hoping to get a smart, nice and sexy slim lady, but believe me it will cost a boom even apple have the technology to built it, so do u think that most of us can afford it?Maybe some super rich people can get it!


In between. I'm a MAC user for 1++ year. I owned a 20 inch C2D iMac. I need a laptop urgently and I know MBA is my cup of tea as I need the portability. I'm planning to buy a sony or fujitsu before this, but right now I know MBA is my sole choice!

holycat
Jan 17, 2008, 02:16 AM
if the price was at least midway between that of a macbook and a macbook pro, i would be a lot more convinced, but it's not. don't say that it is comparable to sony's thin laptop, or whatever. money talks. and when comparing the money to other apple laptops, this thing is a bad decision.

apple has figured it out. they have figured out how to manipulate a group of people into buying whatever they release and praising it to no end. how they got so many of you to buy into it, i will never know.

I need to remind you that, ultraportable laptop (except EEEPC) is always more expensive than conventional laptop. So there is no basic of comparison between other line of product with the macbook air. SONY, Fujitsu normal line laptop is still cheaper than their ultraportable. :)

jragosta
Jan 17, 2008, 06:10 AM
You're an idiot. USB 2.0 is the fastest way to get data into your Air. Even the guy who didn't understand the "death by dongle" of the Air, knew A LOT more than you do. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. There is no current Wi-Fi scheme which can beat USB 2.0, and USB 2.0 was NEVER meant or designed for mass data transfer. It was meant for medium-to-low amounts of bits/sec.

And to respond to your second idiot post, 802.11n has a maximum data transfer rate of 120 Mb/sec. It's FOUR TIMES SLOWER than USB 2.0.

Finally, it does me no good to buy an 802.11n router, then put it in my bag with my Air and ask permission to replace one of the literal MILLIONS of 802.11g routers wherever I happen to need an internet connection.

I am starting to feel sorrow for you. As Wolfgang Pauli famously said, "You're not even wrong."

So use a USB - Ethernet adapter if you're so fond of USB.

I find that WiFi works fine for my day to day needs. This system is designed for everyday use - not for someone's hypothetical needs of what might be required.

Eriamjh1138@DAN
Jan 17, 2008, 06:25 AM
What I find interesting is that if Apple takes some of the design features of the MBA and uses them on a conventional, small and square 12" MacBook, they could probably make one heck of a portable that still has all the ports everyone is bitching about not having (with or without an optical drive).

I was wondering how long it would take the 1.8" hard drive to make it into an Apple laptop. While I think the future is solid state, flash still costs way more than a typical HDD platter. Now they just need to get the speed of those little HDs up to 7200 or more.

If the MBA fails, expect a new MB (in 2010).

drsmithy
Jan 17, 2008, 06:49 AM
The Cube was a truly awesome Mac. A totally silent desktop computer is a thing of wonder. Yet it bombed. You couldn't expand it in any meaningful way, and if you set a book on top of it, it burned up.

The only major problem the Cube suffered from was its ridiculous pricetag. The iMac and Mac Mini (both less expandable than the Cube) clearly demonstrate lack of "expandability" won't kill a product (especially a Mac).

With that said, however, I think there's definitely a parallel. The Cube was clearly targeted at people who were prepared to pay for something that's primary design goal was to look cool. Given the MBA's relatively insignificant advantages - and substantial price premium - over the regular MB, it's hard not to see it as being aimed squarely at the same demographic.

There's a lot more people around with money (or pretend money) to spend on "toys" these days, however, so they might get better mileage than they did with the Cube.

EdRossignol
Jan 17, 2008, 07:09 AM
Personally, i cannot understand why americans are complaining about the price... its so damn cheap in USA its ridiculous, i would happily pay $3000 for the 1.8Ghz and SSD, its cheaper for me to fly to US and buy one, rather buying one in UK, $4000 its a joke, £500+ for the same machine... thats where the argument should be... over pricing in Europe!!!:mad::mad:

But i this is not suitable to be your only PC, it's presented as a business traveling notebook and most companies would compensate for the cost of purchase, and would you really need a powerful processor? you are hardly going to be using CS3, or running games. :confused:
Just word processing, a couple of spreadsheets, maybe some powerpoint slides or browsing the internet and sending emails.
It for a small minority of users, but i think will be well received by business users.:)

Philter
Jan 17, 2008, 07:28 AM
Personally, i cannot understand why americans are complaining about the price... its so damn cheap in USA its ridiculous, i would happily pay $3000 for the 1.8Ghz and SSD, its cheaper for me to fly to US and buy one, rather buying one in UK, $4000 its a joke, £500+ for the same machine... thats where the argument should be... over pricing in Europe!!!:mad::mad:


Because $3000 in the US is in our native currency. Your euro buys a lot more than a dollar does. By the way we're heading into a recession here and I believe it's risky timing for Apple to be relying on fashion items for their lineup.

Philter
Jan 17, 2008, 07:30 AM
There's a lot more people around with money (or pretend money) to spend on "toys" these days, however, so they might get better mileage than they did with the Cube.

What I'm reading in financial papers these days says the consumer is strapped for cash and cutting back. Maybe Apple is happy to become a company making playthings for rich people.

drsmithy
Jan 17, 2008, 07:33 AM
Compare the MBA to the MBP.

Comparing the MBA to the MBP is like comparing the Mac Mini to the Mac Pro. It's just silly. The MB is the real (and better, IMHO - especially if you install your own SSD) alternative.

Actually, the MBA is priced quite competitively - about $1K less than the Sony TZ, for example, even though the TZ has a smaller screen and a much slower processor.

The TZ also has 2/3 the footprint. Certainly, it's thicker, but I'm pretty sure people whose primary interest is portability are happy to sacrifice that for width and length reductions. They certainly do in my experience.

Joe2000
Jan 17, 2008, 07:36 AM
I really need some advice! Would someone please help me out?

I sold my White MacBook a couple of months before the Keynote, due to the rumors of a new MacBook! Waheyy!

Anyway, I'm not bothered about the lack of an optical drive - I am slightly worried about 1 USB port and a small hard drive. Not to mention no AUDIO INPUT!

I'm a music producer/DJ and need enough power to run Propellerhead Reason, Cubase, Logic and Serato Scratch. If this little thing has the power to do this then I WILL buy one - as lugging the fairly weighty MacBook to clubs and bars, along with a bag of vinyl is annoying.

I want to put ALL my music on an external drive anyway - including ripping all my old Vinyl - therefore all I'd have to take is the MBA, Serato and a pair of cans! That would be soooo cool, especially with such a lightweight notebook.

Soooo, will the 1.8Ghz version run Reason, Cubase & Logic well? These are the most resource intensive apps I use!

Oh, and I'm going to New York with my school on the 13th February. We are visiting the Cube Apple Store lol. Would I be able to buy one over there and take it back with me?

Are there any differences to worry about?

Thanks, Joe.