Final Cut Pro anti-hacking protection

[mymemory]

A few weeks ago a friend of mine got a disc image of Final Cut Pro 3. The instalation from the disc image (to make the story short) is impossible, the computer will ask for the original CD.

I know there is always a way to get around this issues but... what if Apple creates an anti-hacking system and them spread it to Macromedia, Adobe, etc???

After the social-political situation of my country this would be the most terrifying thing to think about right now.

What do you think?

[D0ct0rteeth]

<mentalbreakdown>

software piracy bad... aghhh.. cant think straight.....

must come back later.....

(hysterical screaming and yelling)

</mentalbreakdown>

C-

[Mr. Anderson]

Last time I installed photoshop and illstrator they were upgrades, and the installer asked me to put in a adobe cd with the full program on it. For me that was ps4 and ill6.

I'm sure you'll be running into that a lot more, these guys are in the business to make money.

[jelloshotsrule]

i think the best thing graphics (and other types) apps companies can do is offer big student discounts.

just as apple has with fcp, a/w with maya (ple), etc.

if someone who wants to learn say, fcp, after effects, and lightwave wants to do so (without high discounts) they would either resort to piracy or not do it and thus not be needing future upgrades and stuff... so it's good for both parties in the end.

as for the fcp thing: i got the educational fcp 3 recently and made a backup cd of it that i brought with me back to school (left the original at home). i erased my drive at some point and tried to reinstall from the copy disc. it didn't work. i finally found out how to do it, but it was kind of a pain. in this case (and probably a couple others at most) i think it's a legitimate concern that the cd is protected in such a way... i mean, there is the backup copy allowed right?

[mc68k]

Originally posted by mymemory
A few weeks ago a friend of mine got a disc image of Final Cut Pro 3. The instalation from the disc image (to make the story short) is impossible, the computer will ask for the original CD.

I know there is always a way to get around this issues but... what if Apple creates an anti-hacking system and them spread it to Macromedia, Adobe, etc???

What do you think?

A disc-image is a block for block copy of the "original" which makes it an EXACT duplicate. FCP3 has built in read-errors like a original PS disc. This is the only anti-piracy mechanism that should be a problem.

If you burn a CD from the image, it should not ask you for a CD since it is, for all intents and purposes, the same— unless someone pirated it wrong. I will not say any more than this.

People will ALWAYS and have ALWAYS found ways around the rules, and will continue to do so no matter who shares anti-piracy ideas with each other. Nothing to worry about there 'cept your own view of piracy.

[D0ct0rteeth]

http://www.journeyed.com/

they have cheap software.

Pirating just makes companies waste development time trying to protect their software. In addition it reduced the likelihood of getting good products ported to OSX

Im done... :)

good luck with your FCP dilemma

C-

[blackpeter]

If I'm just using tools for personal use or to "learn" a little more about an application. I think it's perfectly fine for me to put a friend's copy on my computer. I'm not making any money off of FCP, Photoshop, or QT Pro. Therefore, I'm not getting any benefit form the products as they are intended. I'm really just ****ing around...

Now - If I get any good and start using these apps as a professional, then I'll have to go out and buy them. The software makers will benefit from my being able to freely test such pricey apps like FCP. Maya (who've actually taken the step of making free version available to all) figured this out.

[mc68k]

Originally posted by tfaz1
If I'm just using tools for personal use or to "learn" a little more about an application. I think it's perfectly fine for me to put a friend's copy on my computer. I'm not making any money off of FCP, Photoshop, or QT Pro. Therefore, I'm not getting any benefit form the products as they are intended. I'm really just ****ing around...

Now - If I get any good and start using these apps as a professional, then I'll have to go out and buy them. The software makers will benefit from my being able to freely test such pricey apps like FCP. Maya (who've actually taken the step of making free version available to all) figured this out.

That's a silly excuse for an argument. Yes, they charge a lot of money, but this is a professional level application. It costs a premium becuase it's developed for professionals and therefore, if professionals are the target audience, then everything from development to licensing will be expensive. The end product is a quality app.

What you are doing is undermining the application by using it w/o paying for it. If it is not a demo/shareware, and you are using it, then you should pay for it. Does one have to make $ off a program to justify piracy? Are you getting a benefit from learning the application even if you're not making any $? Sure, you personally don't hurt the developer one way or another by pirating the app on a small scale since you never intended to use it professionaly, but it all comes down to ethics. But lame arguments will only justify your criminal activity to yourself.

[Beej]

Originally posted by mc68k
People will ALWAYS and have ALWAYS found ways around the rules, and will continue to do so no matter who shares anti-piracy ideas with each other.That is 100% true. People will always be able to get around anti-piracy measures.

Has anyone seen the seven lines of Perl that decrypts the encryption on DVDs? It's pretty funny that it can be undone in seven lines of code. I'll post it up if I can find it...

[Edit:]
Found it. Here's the whole script:
#!/usr/bin/perl -w
# 531-byte qrpff-fast, Keith Winstein and Marc Horowitz <sipb-iap-dvd@mit.edu>
# MPEG 2 PS VOB file on stdin -> descrambled output on stdout
# arguments: title key bytes in least to most-significant order
$_='while(read+STDIN,$_,2048){$a=29;$b=73;$c=142;$t=255;@t=map{$_%16or$t^=$c^=(
$m=(11,10,116,100,11,122,20,100)[$_/16%8])&110;$t^=(72,@z=(64,72,$a^=12*($_%16
-2?0:$m&17)),$b^=$_%64?12:0,@z)[$_%8]}(16..271);if((@a=unx"C*",$_)[20]&48){$h
=5;$_=unxb24,join"",@b=map{xB8,unxb8,chr($_^$a[--$h+84])}@ARGV;s/...$/1$&/;$
d=unxV,xb25,$_;$e=256|(ord$b[4])<<9|ord$b[3];$d=$d>>8^($f=$t&($d>>12^$d>>4^
$d^$d/8))<<17,$e=$e>>8^($t&($g=($q=$e>>14&7^$e)^$q*8^$q<<6))<<9,$_=$t[$_]^
(($h>>=8)+=$f+(~$g&$t))for@a[128..$#a]}print+x"C*",@a}';s/x/pack+/g;eval

...and here (http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,42259,00.html) is an article about it.
[End edit]

[mc68k]

Silly and amazing how it's just 7 lines of perl. Wow, so simple yet so powerful.

I remember old games used to have anti-piracy where you would have to read/input a letter/word out of the manual. Then we'd just copy the manual and give it to friends.

Or PS discs that have built in read-errors so that drives/programs will error. Got around that with ignoring read errors and mod-chips. It's almost more of a challenge to aquire/hack it then just to buy it. I guess that's one reason I do it, besides the fact I'd rather spend $ on hardware.

Where there's a will there's a way...Just like running X on pre-beige g3 :)

[Beej]

Originally posted by mc68k
Silly and amazing how it's just 7 lines of perl. Wow, so simple yet so powerful.And so ugly! Oh well, that's Perl for ya. I love writing Perl, but I hate having to read it :(

[wsteineker]

i think the best thing graphics (and other types) apps companies can do is offer big student discounts.
I agree totally. I am undertaking a redesign of my fraternity's webpage this summer, and I know precisely **** about html. Instead of learning it from books and pulling my hair out or stealing some WYSIWYG software, I tried GoLive for free and then ordered the GoLive/Livemotion bundle from my school bookstore for $89. You can't beat that! Adobe got a new customer and I got my needs met at a price point that didn't make me want to weep uncontrolably. I honestly believe people don't mind paying for great software as long as they can afford it. Dramatic student discounts are a great tool for companies to gain marketshare and minimize piracy in circles that are traditionally the largest malefactors.

[blackpeter]

Originally posted by mc68k

That's a silly excuse for an argument.

Is it really? I bet you don't borrow anything without paying for it...

-When a friend lends you a CD, you make sure to send a royalty check to that artist.
-When you borrow a shirt, you send a kick-back to the Gap.
-When you find out that a school has unregestered versions of Windows, you call the authorities.

Makes sense, in an MS sort of way...

[mymemory]

The funny thing of this is that the guy that told me about di Final Cut 3 thing did it in the middle of a riot a week a go when we had the coup in my country, we saw each other and he told me about it. Thinking about Macs between gunshoots.

Any way, piracy is a way to test/get software any way. For example: About a month an a half ago I was searching for VJ software (Software to edit video in real time for dj's), I got about 12 different softwares and right now only 2 of them works fine. Can you imagine if I had to buy every single one of them for an average price of $200? For get about it, even I wouldn't have them all of them yet because of the shipping, etc.

Piracy (even saound as a ugly word) was my only way to test all this softwares. The same with Final Cut Pro 2, I didn't like it that much, I preffer Premiere, does that mean I have to buy FCP to test it? specially when there is not trial version.

I think the trial versions would be the perfect excuse for developers to attack piracy.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by mc68k
I remember old games used to have anti-piracy where you would have to read/input a letter/word out of the manual. Then we'd just copy the manual and give it to friends.

Or PS discs that have built in read-errors so that drives/programs will error. Got around that with ignoring read errors and mod-chips. It's almost more of a challenge to aquire/hack it then just to buy it. I guess that's one reason I do it, besides the fact I'd rather spend $ on hardware.


it seems like you're implying that you would "acquire/hack" software to use it and then spend your money on hardware. which goes very much against what you said a few posts up in response to someone else talking about using pirated software to learn it..

unless you were just pointing out that their particular reasoning was faulty and you feel they should have just said "i don't see a problem with it" or whatever your reasoning might be.

[Hemingray]

Originally posted by tfaz1


Is it really? I bet you don't borrow anything without paying for it...

-When a friend lends you a CD, you make sure to send a royalty check to that artist.
-When you borrow a shirt, you send a kick-back to the Gap.
-When you find out that a school has unregestered versions of Windows, you call the authorities.

Makes sense, in an MS sort of way...

I'm sorry, but that's even lamer than your first argument.

You're not duplicating the shirt, are you.

[mc68k]

Originally posted by tfaz1


Is it really? I bet you don't borrow anything without paying for it...

-When a friend lends you a CD, you make sure to send a royalty check to that artist.
-When you borrow a shirt, you send a kick-back to the Gap.
-When you find out that a school has unregestered versions of Windows, you call the authorities.

Makes sense, in an MS sort of way...

The only people whose best interests are to stay completely legal are professionals and educational institutions.

Everyone else has stolen/steals software (me included), it just comes with the territory. We don't all have $ to burn on every new upgrade.

I'm just not trying to make excuses to cover up the fact that I'm doing something wrong. It all comes down to personal ethics. I think you're confusing borrowing with stealing to make yourself feel better about your illegal activities.

To answer your statements:

- 90% of my iPod is legit (The rest are radio songs that I didn't want to pay for an album just to get)
- Why would I feel obligated to send $ to Gap? The borrowed shirt has been paid for and is the original. Borrowing the shirt in this sense would equate to giving someone else your license in the software world, since the shirt cannot be duplicated.
- Maybe if it was my HS. :) Otherwise, I work at a university and all the techs I know have no reason to cut corners. Besides, we have a university license for Windows, as do most other schools.

[mc68k]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


it seems like you're implying that you would "acquire/hack" software to use it and then spend your money on hardware. which goes very much against what you said a few posts up in response to someone else talking about using pirated software to learn it..

unless you were just pointing out that their particular reasoning was faulty and you feel they should have just said "i don't see a problem with it" or whatever your reasoning might be.

I'm saying software is overpriced and the hardware to run it is expensive, so I take the money that I would pay on software and spend it on hardware. I think we would all like to give our money to the people who deserve it, the developers, but the fact is most of us do not have that capacity.

To clarify: I'm just trying to point out faulty arguments about piracy. I'm no better than the next guy about stealing software— I'm probably worse. At least I 'fess up to the fact and don't go looking for support for my faulty logic/ethics.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by mc68k


I'm saying software is overpriced and the hardware to run it is expensive, so I take the money that I would pay on software and spend it on hardware. I think we would all like to give our money to the people who deserve it, the developers, but the fact is most of us do not have that capacity.

To clarify: I'm just trying to point out faulty arguments about piracy. I'm no better than the next guy about stealing software— I'm probably worse. At least I 'fess up to the fact and don't go looking for support for my faulty logic/ethics.

that's kinda what i figured. but i was confused when i first read your second post, and then saw that it was the same person who had said the things in your first post....... anyways, enough confusion

[blackpeter]

Originally posted by mc68k

Everyone else has stolen/steals software (me included), it just comes with the territory. We don't all have $ to burn on every new upgrade.

I'm just not trying to make excuses to cover up the fact that I'm doing something wrong. It all comes down to personal ethics. I think you're confusing borrowing with stealing to make yourself feel better about your illegal activities.


Oh, OK. This is starting to make more sense. So the difference is that you sort of, what - get into stealing, right? Please... I know full well what dynamics are at play here.

I could have guessed that you were in college. I remember when I used to pontificate just to hear the sound of my own voice.

[blackpeter]

Originally posted by Hemingray


I'm sorry, but that's even lamer than your first argument.

You're not duplicating the shirt, are you.

I'll agree that I'm asking to you make a leap with me, but I don't think it's lame. You are getting benefit (however brief) from the shirt. My point is that there is such a thing as legitimate borrowing (I'm not including MP3 swapping here - so let's not open that can of worms).

I have full-paid for versions of Office 2000/v.x, Norton Utils, Antivirus, LaunchBar, etc, etc. That's because I get a benefit from all of these programs. So much so that I took the trouble of going out and getting them. But if I borrow a shirt and it dosen't fit right or look good, then I'm going to choose to stop wearing it and I definately won't go out and buy it.

[Hemingray]

Alright, I'll explain:

When you purchase Adobe Photoshop, you are paying for one license. That program is copyright of Adobe. You own the serial number, which allows you to use that program. But you don't own the rights to distribute the program as you please. You've paid for one person to use it, and that's it.

On the other hand, when you purchase a shirt, you own that shirt. There's no License Agreement that you have to agree to when you buy the shirt; it's not copyrighted. That's it, it's yours. You're free to do with it what you want: loan it, burn it, wear it, fly it as a flag, cut it up into tiny pieces, whatever.

You're comparing apples and oranges. What applies to necessary wares does not apply to copyrighted works. Whether you're making money from it or not, you and the person that "loaned" it to you have violated the license agreement.

[blackpeter]

You don't have to explain - I already understand that it's an imperfect analogy. If you could get away from the shirt thing (I know, I know - I started it) and follow me on this one... because I believe the spirit of the rule applies to any ethics debate. We're talking about something more specific than written law here - we're talking about getting money to the people who truly deserve it, right??

So, who has the money to buy these high-cost apps? Professionals. Who do they think are buying these products? Professionals. Why do they have the money? Well, for one - they don't really have a choice. Once their work enters the professional world, they'd better have their asses covered. If they are making money on pirated software - they are in serious legal trouble. But really, because apps like these are priced based on the market (theirs being the pro-user market). The program pays for itself over and over when it's applied as it was intended: to make money for the user. If you don't think that's what these apps are there for, then grow up.

My point is that I wouldn't feel that uncomfortable writing these companies directly and telling them that I currently have illegal versions of FCP and Photoshop on my computer at home. That I am currently a non-professional learning the in's and out's of the software. That I hope to someday figure out even 10% of these apps. I might even get a letter back telling me to uninstall these programs or informing me that I was "stealing" or whatever.

But when it comes down to it (law or no law) these companies aren't going to come after me. Because they know I'm bone dry. Because they know that in spirit, I'm not "using" them. They aren't missing out on making money from me. They know that, if anything, they're gaining an oppourtunity to turn me into another money-maker for them.

[Hemingray]

Originally posted by tfaz1
My point is that I wouldn't feel that uncomfortable writing these companies directly and telling them that I currently have illegal versions of FCP and Photoshop on my computer at home. That I am currently a non-professional learning the in's and out's of the software. That I hope to someday figure out even 10% of these apps. I might even get a letter back telling me to uninstall these programs or informing me that I was "stealing" or whatever.

And Adobe's answer will be, "That's why we have a trial version of Photoshop available for you." The difference here is, you're reaping the benefits of the program (i.e. saving an image you've created) without paying for it. Whether you're using that image for profit or not, you're using the program, unrestricted, using someone else's serial number, for free. I'd like to see you write Adobe. I guarantee you they'll take action. That's like a guy walking into a police precinct, turning himself in, and expecting them to ignore you.

[blackpeter]

OK, I'll follow through. But before I write Apple and Adobe, I'd like to hear what you think they're going to do. So tell me, what "action" do you think they'll take? Do you mean to tell me that you actually think they are going to succeed in getting their app off of my HD??

When it comes down to it, we just have different ideas about these things. I'll point you to another topic/thread we disagreed on:

http://www.macrumors.com/forums/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=3938&highlight=apple+happy

[jelloshotsrule]

hmm, this oughta be interesting...

i remember hearing a story about a guy walking into a police station drunk and on various drugs and asking if they can help him find his way home... should be fun to see where it goes...

[mc68k]

Originally posted by tfaz1


Oh, OK. This is starting to make more sense. So the difference is that you sort of, what - get into stealing, right? Please... I know full well what dynamics are at play here.

I could have guessed that you were in college. I remember when I used to pontificate just to hear the sound of my own voice.
It seems to me that you feel piracy is okay if there is no profit from said applications. Maybe we do have different opinions on the subject. I'm not sure what you mean here, but I haven't paid for 95% of my current software in the last few years. I'm not ashamed of that.

As for me being in college, I think that's irrelevant to the subject. I could have brought it up for a pity plea, "But I'm a poor college student. I can't afford it." But I know better than to try those kind of antics here. I'm just as guilty as all of you in stealing software.

Who's pontificating now?

(Sorry to dredge all this nonsense up again..........)

[blackpeter]

I think I clued me in to your being in college is that you're full of ideas, but they are jumbled and unrefined. Contradictory even.

On one hand you say:
"What you are doing is undermining the application by using it w/o paying for it. If it is not a demo/shareware, and you are using it, then you should pay for it."

Only then to turn around and say things like:
"I haven't paid for 95% of my current software in the last few years. I'm not ashamed of that."

...huh?? Either you need to organize your thinking or see a shrink to sort out these multiple personalities.

The smartest thing you've said is this:
"It all comes down to personal ethics." (taking Philo 101 this semester?)

...exactly. Which is what this debate is all about. Not law. Maybe that distinction is confusing you?

[mc68k]

Originally posted by tfaz1
I think I clued me in to your being in college is that you're full of ideas, but they are jumbled and unrefined. Contradictory even.

On one hand you say:
"What you are doing is undermining the application by using it w/o paying for it. If it is not a demo/shareware, and you are using it, then you should pay for it."

Only then to turn around and say things like:
"I haven't paid for 95% of my current software in the last few years. I'm not ashamed of that."

...huh?? Either you need to organize your thinking or see a shrink to sort out these multiple personalities.

The smartest thing you've said is this:
"It all comes down to personal ethics." (taking Philo 101 this semester?)

...exactly. Which is what this debate is all about. Not law. Maybe that distinction is confusing you?

I'm telling YOU why piracy is bad NO MATTER WHAT SPIN YOU PUT ON IT. Isn't law at the heart of the matter too? Ethics come about because of choices that arise due to laws/obligations. And no, I've never taken a Philo class.

I believe that people should pay for software to keep the development of programs in motion. I practice piracy. But I also want to make the point that it's illegal if you don't pay. I don't see how this is faulty/incoherent/contradictory logic. I feel strongly enough about piracy to tell others not to do it, but not enough to practice it myself.

I don't go on the street preaching this stuff or threaten to send letters to the developer stating what I'm doing. That's just plain foolish.

Stop doggin' my age. My points are as valid as anyone else's. Many quality contributers here are younger than I and haven't been to college to refine their ideas.

[blackpeter]

Originally posted by mc68k


I'm telling YOU why piracy is bad NO MATTER WHAT SPIN YOU PUT ON IT. Isn't law at the heart of the matter too? Ethics come about because of choices that arise due to laws/obligations. And no, I've never taken a Philo class.

I believe that people should pay for software to keep the development of programs in motion. I practice piracy. But I also want to make the point that it's illegal if you don't pay. I don't see how this is faulty/incoherent/contradictory logic. I feel strongly enough about piracy to tell others not to do it, but not enough to practice it myself.

I don't go on the street preaching this stuff or threaten to send letters to the developer stating what I'm doing. That's just plain foolish.

Getting a bit worked up huh? It's good for a young student like yourself to be passionate about things.

You aren't guilty of contradictory logic. You're guilty of contradictory ethics (and of being a little confused). Reminding you that YOU are the on who brought that term (ethics) into this debate. It's not foolish to write this letter to Adobe (which I will write once Hemmingray chimes in about what he thinks will happen - I'd just like to prove him wrong).

What is truly foolish and sophomoric (I'm not sure if you've made it to that year yet) is to feel something so "strongly" and then act in a contradictory way. This type of thinking is scary in someone so young. Reminicent of the 80's "me" generation. But I guess everything comes back around...

[mc68k]

Originally posted by tfaz1


Getting a bit worked up huh? It's good for a young student like yourself to be passionate about things.

You aren't guilty of contradictory logic. You're guilty of contradictory ethics (and of being a little confused). Reminding you that YOU are the on who brought that term (ethics) into this debate. It's not foolish to write this letter to Adobe (which I will write once Hemmingray chimes in about what he thinks will happen - I'd just like to prove him wrong).

What is truly foolish and sophomoric (I'm not sure if you've made it to that year yet) is to feel something so "strongly" and then act in a contradictory way. This type of thinking is scary in someone so young. Reminicent of the 80's "me" generation. But I guess everything comes back around...

Whatever. I'll be a junior in the fall. I don't really care to heat this thread up any more. I can still preach what I don't practice. No harm in that.:)

[jelloshotsrule]

see i thought he was contradictory at first too, then he seemed to be just saying that he didn't like that you were making reasons for your piracy, rather than just saying "i pirate software" without giving an excuse/reason....


but now i'm just confused.

i do think you're being a bit tough on him based on his age. but his logic does seem to clash... you really can't expect others to not pirate if you don't. whether you give a reason for it or not. you can not try to hold them to a higher standard than yourself, that just doesn't fit.

if you say "piracy is bad, but i do it" i think that's different. but to look down on others for doing something you do is not logical. whether you are a college student or an old man

[mc68k]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
see i thought he was contradictory at first too, then he seemed to be just saying that he didn't like that you were making reasons for your piracy, rather than just saying "i pirate software" without giving an excuse/reason....

but now i'm just confused.


I don't really care one way or the other. To clear up any confusion: I pirate software. I think software piracy is bad. I have said this all along. I'm not looking down on anyone but merely just presenting the facts. I'm not really THAT passionate on this subject. I just wanted to make light of the other side of the issue because I saw that it was not being presented. Playing the Devil's Advocate, if you will.

I just don't like my age entering into anything. It was brought up last night in another thread. Can't we all just get along?

[jelloshotsrule]

i don't think age should come into it since both old and young say dumb or confusing things.

i guess just make sure to be clear next time. this miscommunication could have been nipped in the bud much earlier i think.

[blackpeter]

In other words: If you don't have anything to say, don't just make something up. You've got your whole life to hear the sound of your own voice.

Speak up to be heard.
Shut up to be appreciated.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by tfaz1
Getting a bit worked up huh? It's good for a young student like yourself to be passionate about things.

You aren't guilty of contradictory logic. You're guilty of contradictory ethics (and of being a little confused). Reminding you that YOU are the on who brought that term (ethics) into this debate. It's not foolish to write this letter to Adobe (which I will write once Hemmingray chimes in about what he thinks will happen - I'd just like to prove him wrong).

What is truly foolish and sophomoric (I'm not sure if you've made it to that year yet) is to feel something so "strongly" and then act in a contradictory way. This type of thinking is scary in someone so young. Reminicent of the 80's "me" generation. But I guess everything comes back around...

Enjoying goading those younger than ourselves, are we? Feel the need to put others down to feel better about yourself, do you?

You are trying to break this person down because they've disagreed with you. To me the logic and ethics are quite clear. It is entirely possible, nay, common, to believe one thing and behave in a contradictory manner.

At least mc68k has the guts to admit he know's what he's doing is wrong, rather than hide behind technicalities and wordplay. He feels that piracy harms software development, but since he lacks the resources to purchase software he does what he must to obtain the programs anyway.

Really, it's quite straightforward. In fact it's a much more mature standpoint than many I've seen here.

Please feel free to let me know how off base and wrong I am...I can handle it. And since you seem to make such a big deal about age/education here are my credentials:
Age - 23
SAT score - 1440
GRE scores - Q + V = 1320
BA - May, '02

[jelloshotsrule]

haha. rower's taking charge

i will stop defending the youngster (only 20 myself...) and let the older wiser rower take over! ha.

[blackpeter]

Ooh... I guess I've met my match. *yawn

I'm going to get something to eat. I'll deal with this later.:o

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
haha. rower's taking charge

i will stop defending the youngster (only 20 myself...) and let the older wiser rower take over! ha.

Feel free to jump in anytime you want. Age is just a number, maturity is more important.

[jelloshotsrule]

rower: true, and that's why i'll let the guy defend himself! ha

that and the fact that he was a bit confusing, though his age had little/nothing to do with that.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
rower: true, and that's why i'll let the guy defend himself! ha

that and the fact that he was a bit confusing, though his age had little/nothing to do with that.

Software piracy is a confusing issue. Maybe he could have phrased things better, but tfaz1 went too far.

If you reread his posts, you can see that mc68k was not saying "tfaz1, you are wrong to pirate software".
He clearly said several times: I know piracy is wrong, I do it anyway, don't try to justify it to yourself as anything else.

[blackpeter]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU

Software piracy is a confusing issue. Maybe he could have phrased things better, but tfaz1 went too far.


Before I go on to talk more about piracy laws and ethics (which I would really love to continue to discuss) I feel as if I should address the greater issue that seems to have emerged: behavior.

So let me ask you Rower - how exactly did I go to far?

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by tfaz1
[...] So let me ask you Rower - how exactly did I go to far?

You deliberately baited/goaded him by seeking to undermine his position due to his age, which is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
You tried to agitate him and play on his emotions, thus diverting the topic from your unjustifiable piracy to his immaturity.

[blackpeter]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU

You deliberately baited/goaded him by seeking to undermine his position due to his age, which is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
You tried to agitate him and play on his emotions, thus diverting the topic from your unjustifiable piracy to his immaturity.

Wrong. Don't devert your true motive. This must have something to do with the topic. Which is interesting, because as much as you've talked you still haven't said a thing. Especially about piracy or ethics. But don't take this stand for the youngster's sake. I don't think it's really your fight. Let me show you why...

>>"He feels that piracy harms software development, but since he lacks the resources to purchase software he does what he must to obtain the programs anyway.
Really, it's quite straightforward. In fact it's a much more mature standpoint than many I've seen here."<<

Wait a minute. Didn't this guy just say that he knows that he's hurting people but keeps doing it? This is mature and straightforward? Boy, the bar really has been lowered. Aren't we talking about software here?

He is not Jean Valjean stealing a loaf of bread to feed his starving family. This lucky SOB get's to go to college and he's stealing (not clothes - not food) software...

Now if you think I was a little rough, I'll admit it. But give me a little credit here. Recognize that I can communicate a number of levels of civility. But this guy came hard attacking my ethics with none of his own. He wanted to play hardball and I gave him hardball. He (and a few others) could stand a few more seasons in the minors.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by tfaz1
Wrong. Don't devert your true motive. This must have something to do with the topic. Which is interesting, because as much as you've talked you still haven't said a thing. Especially about piracy or ethics. But don't take this stand for the youngster's sake. I don't think it's really your fight. Let me show you why...

>>"He feels that piracy harms software development, but since he lacks the resources to purchase software he does what he must to obtain the programs anyway.
Really, it's quite straightforward. In fact it's a much more mature standpoint than many I've seen here."<<

Wait a minute. I think I must be flashing back to Phish Worcester '97. Didn't this guy just say that he knows that he's hurting people but keeps doing it? This is mature and straightforward? Aren't we talking about software?

He is not Jean Valjean stealing a loaf of bread to feed his starving family. This lucky SOB get's to go to college and he's stealing (not clothes - not food) software...

Now if you think I was a little rough, I'll admit it. But give me a little credit here. Recognize that I can communicate a number of levels of civility. But this guy came hard attacking my ethics with none of his own. He wanted to play hardball and I gave him hardball. He (and a few others) could stand a few more seasons in the minors.

Thank you for the psychoanalysis! I had no idea that my "true motive" was prompting me to pretend to defend someone when really I'm just too wishy-washy to address the topic at hand. Truly amazing!

I will address the rest of your message soon. It's my turn to grab a bite and play truant for a little while...

[blackpeter]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU

Thank you for the psychoanalysis! I had no idea that my "true motive" was prompting me to pretend to defend someone when really I'm just too wishy-washy to address the topic at hand. Truly amazing!

Well, I wasn't going there but I'll take the credit.

You know what they say: A good therapist doesn't analyze. He leads the patient to their own analysis.

[Hemingray]

I gave up way back on the first page... no sense in me trying to pound home my points anymore.

tfaz1, I wish you the best of luck.

[blackpeter]

You too Hemm... I love the avatar. Your's and Rower's are my fav's*

[mc68k]

Originally posted by tfaz1
The smartest thing you've said is this:
"It all comes down to personal ethics."

...exactly. Which is what this debate is all about. Not law. Maybe that distinction is confusing you?

Looks to me that you tried to steer this into a debate about ethics. This distinction is still clear: Law -> License/Pirating -> No License

But this guy came hard attacking my ethics with none of his own.

Do I have to have ethics of my own to state facts and make a point?

Especially about piracy or ethics. But don't take this stand for the youngster's sake. I don't think it's really your fight.

Trying to steer the conversation again are we...
Trying to use my age demeaningly again are we...

This lucky SOB get's to go to college and he's stealing (not clothes - not food) software...

Resorting to name-calling are we....I'm quite good at stealing software too, I quite like it
I repeat, can't we all just get along? (I believe this is the third time I've said this)

Wrong. Don't devert your true motive. This must have something to do with the topic. Which is interesting, because as much as you've talked you still haven't said a thing. Especially about piracy or ethics.

Does a thread really have to be on topic? Look at the now infamous "travis" thread. I/Rower' are attacking your attempt to steer the topic back to the original intent when in fact it now is directed towards your tactics.

[rainman::|:|]

WOOOO software pirating!!!

okay, not to stir things up, but i don't see the need to argue on this one... You both pirate software, anything beyond that is symantecs. Who cares what you *think* of software piracy. You can justify if to yourself if you want... that doesn't make it right, the fact is, it's still illegal. can we all agree on that?

now, who's gonna send me a copy of PS7?

lol
:)
pnw

[mc68k]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
WOOOO software pirating!!!

okay, not to stir things up, but i don't see the need to argue on this one... You both pirate software, anything beyond that is symantecs. Who cares what you *think* of software piracy. You can justify if to yourself if you want... that doesn't make it right, the fact is, it's still illegal. can we all agree on that?

now, who's gonna send me a copy of PS7?

lol
:)
pnw

I agree. That's all I've been trying to say all along. Very simple. I think it's illegal. Really fun to do, a challenge, but illegal.

NARRRR MATEY!!! SAIL THE SEVEN HL SERVERS!!!

[blackpeter]

Originally posted by mc68k

I/Rower' are attacking your attempt to steer the topic back to the original intent when in fact it now is directed towards your tactics.

Listen to the way you refer to eachother now. It's so cute.

But seriously...

If there's one thing you should learn before 25, it's this: Be a man. Don't pull another man into your mess and don't worry about how the other guy plays his game. My tactics...? If you can't win - lose with grace. Don't be a whinner and don't make excuses.

(PS) - >>"Do I have to have ethics of my own to state facts and make a point?"<<

Well, even if you don't want them or haven't realized it yet, you have ethics. They're just underdeveloped.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by tfaz1
Well, I wasn't going there but I'll take the credit.

You know what they say: A good therapist doesn't analyze. He leads the patient to their own analysis.

A good therapist also knows when to be quiet and listen...

Back to the topic at hand:
>>Wait a minute. I think I must be flashing back to Phish Worcester '97. Didn't this guy just say that he knows that he's hurting people but keeps doing it? This is mature and straightforward? Aren't we talking about software?<<
It's more mature and straightforward than someone who hides behind claims that piracy is acceptable "If I'm just using tools for personal use or to "learn" a little more about an application." Piracy is wrong. Period.

>>He is not Jean Valjean stealing a loaf of bread to feed his starving family. This lucky SOB get's to go to college and he's stealing (not clothes - not food) software...<<
He never likened himself to Valjean, whereas I would say you are quite reminiscent of Thénardier; willing to do whatever it takes to serve your ends.

>>Now if you think I was a little rough, I'll admit it. But give me a little credit here. Recognize that I can communicate a number of levels of civility. But this guy came hard attacking my ethics with none of his own. He wanted to play hardball and I gave him hardball. He (and a few others) could stand a few more seasons in the minors.<<
I appreciate a good round of verbal sparring as much as the next guy, but he never made the debate personal. You did. You took it to the "hardball" level without a vaild reason, other than the fact that you apparently didn't like a "kid" disputing your take on piracy.

I've kept things civil, thus far, and I appreciate you doing likewise. Let's try to come to some sort of consensus, or at least an understanding of what's going on here.

[mc68k]

Originally posted by tfaz1

If you can't win - lose with grace. Don't be a whinner and don't make excuses.If I'm just using tools for personal use or to "learn" a little more about an application. I think it's perfectly fine for me to put a friend's copy on my computer. I'm not making any money off of FCP, Photoshop, or QT Pro. Therefore, I'm not getting any benefit form the products as they are intended. I'm really just ****ing around...

Now - If I get any good and start using these apps as a professional, then I'll have to go out and buy them. The software makers will benefit from my being able to freely test such pricey apps like FCP. Maya (who've actually taken the step of making free version available to all) figured this out.

Hmmmm....reverse psychology maybe....[ponders]

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by tfaz1


Listen to the way you refer to eachother now. It's so cute.

But seriously...

If there's one thing you should learn before 25, it's this: Be a man. Don't pull another man into your mess and don't worry about how the other guy plays his game. My tactics...? If you can't win - lose with grace. Don't be a whinner and don't make excuses.

(PS) - >>"Do I have to have ethics of my own to state facts and make a point?"<<

Well, even if you don't want them or haven't realized it yet, you have ethics. They're just underdeveloped.

I agree with Rower. And i have this to say: i don't have to have ethics to know this isn't worth arguing about. I'm not taking sides here, it's not my place, but neither of you are going to change the other's mind, and i see you getting personal here... telling someone to "be a man" just because they don't agree with you is hitting a bit below the belt, perhaps...

my2¢ as always :)
pnw

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
I agree with Rower. And i have this to say: i don't have to have ethics to know this isn't worth arguing about. I'm not taking sides here, it's not my place, but neither of you are going to change the other's mind, and i see you getting personal here... telling someone to "be a man" just because they don't agree with you is hitting a bit below the belt, perhaps...

my2¢ as always :)
pnw

Playing the diplomat, as always, I see...:)

Good points, hence my plea for coming to consensus/understanding..

[blackpeter]

_____________________________________________________________
I appreciate a good round of verbal sparring as much as the next guy, but he never made the debate personal. You did. You took it to the "hardball" level without a vaild reason, other than the fact that you apparently didn't like a "kid" disputing your take on piracy.
_____________________________________________________________

Are you reading the same thread I am? Take a look at his first two responses to me (the first interactions we have ever had on these boards). If you don't think his replys are pointed, then your EQ is far, far lower than your IQ.

Also, take note at his first post to me and tell me who was putting this debate on moral ground? Please, I might have been a bit hard on the boy, but can you not say that he was asking for it - just a little?

I'm sorry, but maybe my hazing was taken the wrong way. At the ripe old age of 24, we sometimes forget how it was to be young. I'd still be glad to defend my "pirating" as an ethical debate. What other kind could of debate could there be anyway? The law's the law. And this is that.

I'm sorry if things got hot.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by tfaz1
Are you reading the same thread I am? Take a look at his first two responses to me (the first interactions we have ever had on these boards). If you don't think his replys are pointed, then your EQ is far, far lower than your IQ.

Also, take note at his first post to me and tell me who was putting this debate on moral ground? Please, I might have been a bit hard on the boy, but can you not say that he was asking for it - just a little?

I'm sorry, but maybe my hazing was taken the wrong way. At the ripe old age of 24, we sometimes forget how it was to be young. I'd still be glad to defend my "pirating" as an ethical debate. What other kind could of debate could there be anyway? The law's the law. And this is that.

I'm sorry if things got hot.

There is some confusion as to whether a response is directed at the argument or the person. His first two responses ("That's a silly excuse for an argument." and "I think you're confusing borrowing with stealing to make yourself feel better about your illegal activities.") do not constitute personal attacks.

He brought up moral issues because they are central to the entire piracy debate. I don't really see how that can be avoided, nor do I see how it matters that he is the one who brought it up. If he hadn't, Hemingray or myself would have.

Shall we move past this and get back to discussing the original topic?

[blackpeter]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU

There is some confusion as to whether a response is directed at the argument or the person. His first two responses ("That's a silly excuse for an argument." and "I think you're confusing borrowing with stealing to make yourself feel better about your illegal activities.") do not constitute personal attacks.


I guess we'll just have to disagree on that one. Maybe your society conducts itself in a different manner. In my experience, phrasings like "Silly excuse for a..." and "Make yourself feel better about..." aren't usually trademarks of a constrctive conversation as much as they are an invitation to take off the gloves.

[blackpeter]

With that said, it's been a heated afternoon and late evening. I'm still game for Round 2. Tomorrow let's bring the "talking stone" to pass around so everyone can have their turn.

Goodnight*
'till tomorrow! Adeu.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by tfaz1
I guess we'll just have to disagree on that one. Maybe your society conducts itself in a different manner. In my experience, phrasings like "Silly excuse for a..." and "Make yourself feel better about..." aren't usually trademarks of a constrctive conversation as much as they are an invitation to take off the gloves.

Fair enough. How's that letter to Adobe coming? ;)

[blackpeter]

OK, one more response...

The letter to Adobe will be written when Hemingray tells me what he bet's they will do about it (gentlemen's bet, of course).

I'm betting they do nothing. Surprised?

[mc68k]

Originally posted by tfaz1


I guess we'll just have to disagree on that one. Maybe your society conducts itself in a different manner. In my experience, phrasings like "Silly excuse for a..." and "Make yourself feel better about..." aren't usually trademarks of a constrctive conversation as much as they are an invitation to take off the gloves.

I was not trying to attack you personally, just your argument. I'm sorry if things got heated too. Can't we all just get along? (hey that makes 4! :))

Let's get back on topic.

[Rower_CPU]

I'm not touching that one...

Back to the ethical debate then?

[blackpeter]

::deep breath:: Um, well... I guess I might have underestimated Adobe's resolve. While looking for a good place to send my "letter" to Adobe, I came across this:

http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/antipiracy/report.html

I might just want to rethink that correspondence. ...so Hem, where can I buy you that beer? (*sike)

I'll call Adobe tomorrow. They've posted two "hotlines." Maybe I should record the conversation and throw it on my Mac.com site. Would anyone be interested in hearing it?

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by tfaz1
::deep breath:: Um, well... I guess I might have underestimated Adobe's resolve. While looking for a good place to send my "letter" to Adobe, I came across this:

http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/antipiracy/report.html

I might just want to rethink that correspondence. ...so Hem, where can I buy you that beer? (*sike)

I'll call Adobe tomorrow. They've posted two "hotlines." Maybe I should record the conversation and throw it on my Mac.com site. Would anyone be interested in hearing it?

Abso-friggin-lutely! I think that such a conversation would provide ample comic relief for everyone here. Keep us posted!

[blackpeter]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU

Abso-friggin-lutely! I think that such a conversation would provide ample comic relief for everyone here. Keep us posted!

My thinking exactly. This thread needs a little levity. Anyone here know the best way to audio phone conversations? I was just going to use my DAT mic, but I know there must be a better way...

[Rower_CPU]

Speakerphone would work well...if you have it...

Anyone have some FBI/CIA knowledge they'd like to share? :D

[Hemingray]

Originally posted by tfaz1
You too Hemm... I love the avatar. Your's and Rower's are my fav's*

Thanks! :)

[SPG]

just make sure that you let them know that they are going to be recorded, otherwise their attorneys will have another item on thie r agenda.
Something like "For my own training purposes, quality assurance, and overall need for entertainment, portions of this conversation will be recorded." I'd love to hear their reaction to that. I once told a Sprint customer service rep I was going to record the conversation too for my own records, and they instantly hung up!