iPod Touch: 'Mainstream Wi-Fi Mobile Platform'

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

During Apple's conference call today, Apple executives described the iPod touch as a potentially the "first mainstream Wi-Fi mobile platform, running all kinds of mobile applications".

This is the first time that Apple has referred to the iPod touch as anything more than a high end iPod, with newly articulated expectations that the iPod touch would be a new Wi-Fi enabled mobile platform with a focus on mobile applications.

Apple did release an application update (http://www.apple.com/ipodtouch/whatsnew.html) ($20) for the iPod touch at Macworld, now giving it feature parity to the iPhone. Apple is planning on launching a Software Developer's Kit (SDK) in February for both the iPod touch and iPhone, and it appears that Apple is approaching this seriously.

There have been reports that some early developers have already received copies of the SDK and are already working on iPod/iPhone applications. No announcements have yet been made about general developer accessibility to the SDK.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/01/22/ipod-touch-mainstream-wi-fi-mobile-platform/)

[mozmac]

I heard him say that, and frankly...it was pretty cool to hear. That's an example of how Apple keeps assembling pieces to the grand puzzle.

[aswitcher]

Looking good for lots of new Apps like we have widgets for our Macs this year to give us all sorts of additional functionality. They gotta release that SDK soon :mad:

[applefan69]

I heard him say that, and frankly...it was pretty cool to hear. That's an example of how Apple keeps assembling pieces to the grand puzzle.

honestly i dont think apple had these thoughs in mind when FIRSt developing the iPod Touch.

In fact steve made it clear that he only considered the iPod Touch a high-end iPod.

Thing that i think is making apple think this way now is ALL the 3'rd party support the device has gotten throuhg jailbreaking. sure steve doesnt like jailbreakers... but he can't help but admit that ALOT of support from ALOT of people have gone into it, and that it's obvious this device could become something EXTREMELY big if he allows it.

[iMikeT]

If the iPod Touch is the 'Mainstream Wi-Fi Mobile Platform', then what does that make the iPhone, the 'Mainstream Wi-Fi Mobile Platform, Plus Phone'?

[dopplerd]

Or any other VOIP service... Apple needs to spend more time listening to customers and less time following MBAs.

[iMikeT]

Or any other VOIP service... Apple needs to spend more time listening to customers and less time following MBAs.


Sweet, the first 'Apple needs to spend more time listening to customers vs. MBA' rant.
:rolleyes:

[TedB]

I am so glad that they are now taking this stance towards how they view the future of the ipod touch/iPhone. As long as apple allows the SDK and the hardware to be used to its full potential, then I think they will have no problem making it the "Mainstream wi-fi mobile platform" of choice. Though, I really don't have much hope for making the SDK as open as we all want it. There are so many possibilities, yet I am sure that apple is going to limit what the device will be able to do.

If the iPod Touch is the 'Mainstream Wi-Fi Mobile Platform', then what does that make the iPhone, the 'Mainstream Wi-Fi Mobile Platform, Plus Phone'?

my guess is it makes the iPhone the "Premium Mobile Platform" ... sounds nice.. no need to have wifi in the title since it also has EDGE

[iSee]

Whoa!

The iPhone/Touch SDK is going to be pretty powerful if it's going to back that statement up...

[BrownManUPS]

I was skeptical about what the iPod touch would provide if the iPhone was so powerful in the market, and was on the fence for a while about getting one...but I realized that when the SDK comes out the apps on it are going to be stellar and it is worth having 16 GB of space rather than the 8GB, battery-eating, all-in-one solution.

This touch is an iPod, PDA, and an excellent sidekick when on the road. The battery life has been amazing and the music is excellent while having a great organizing calendar, notes, mail, and map device. This software update is the beginning of exciting things to come for it and I am glad I adopted the device now.

I expect a 30 GB one out when back-to-school hits for a larger PDA solution for college kids, as now that college campuses are wired to have wi-fi everywhere, this is the perfect device.

[Llywelyn]

Or any other VOIP service...

With what microphone?



Apple needs to spend more time listening to customers and less time following MBAs.


You mean that they should listen to *you*. Built-in VOIP in an iPod Touch would be nice but is, functionally, not even all that useful to me at the moment. If the features required to use that were included, it would be extra expense at no real benefit. The people making decisions at Apple evidently feel that this is true for a sufficiently high percentage of their customers to not make it worthwhile vs. what they did include.

Write them a suggestion and see if they follow it in a future release. In the meantime, you aren't their target market.

[thejadedmonkey]

Newton 2.0... and they didn't even realize it!

I think I'll pick one up sometime before next x-mas, once the 2nd revision is out.

[OrangeCuse44]

This is exciting. This is one amazing device and it keeps getting better. I love this damn thing.

[MacsAttack]

Now - if Apple would only create an 8 inch screen/battery combo with USB keyboard and mouse (bluetooth option would be good) - that an iPhone or Touch could plug into to provide the CPU and storage, then you would have a killer ultra-portable platform.

If the SDK is up to giving us pocket iWorks.

[dwl017]

Can you receive and send Gmail on the Touch ?

[Project]

I definitely noticed them putting a real emphasis on that during the call.

I guess it all but confirms that Apple will be taking a nice cut out of all apps sold on the iTunes store. But what will that cut be? I'm guessing 10%, which I think is the same as the Made for iPod programme.

[Llywelyn]

Can you receive and send Gmail on the Touch ?

Yes. Both Safari and the Mail application in the recent update work well with it.

[Loge]

I think they planned it this way from the start; all that is changing is how they are presenting it now the SDK is nearly ready. Why go to all the trouble of building a mobile platform, if you are only to support a limited set of functions?

[Azadre]

I will believe it when they add 802.1X. Until then, it's just a touchscreen iPod.

[japanime]

With what microphone?

Third-party microphones.

The hand-built microphone that I just bought from the Touchmods team for my iPod touch works great with the SIP-VoIP application released for jailbroken iPods.

I've already made several overseas calls using the setup.

[jnc]

Can you receive and send Gmail on the Touch ?

Yup. Gmail created a specific interface for it too.

[MattInOz]

honestly i dont think apple had these thoughs in mind when FIRSt developing the iPod Touch.

In fact steve made it clear that he only considered the iPod Touch a high-end iPod.

Thing that i think is making apple think this way now is ALL the 3'rd party support the device has gotten throuhg jailbreaking. sure steve doesnt like jailbreakers... but he can't help but admit that ALOT of support from ALOT of people have gone into it, and that it's obvious this device could become something EXTREMELY big if he allows it.

Steve has made a lot of things clear in the Past, even while having products underdevelopment in the background. When Steve says no he means not yet. If he says maybe then he hasn't really looked in to it.

They may have been caught short on timing and pressured to move it forward, but as the jailbreakers will tell you after they mucked around in the the innards. The SDK was always planned.

[Llywelyn]

Third-party microphones.

The hand-built microphone that I just bought from the Touchmods team for my iPod touch works great with the SIP-VoIP application released for jailbroken iPods.

I've already made several overseas calls using the setup.

Good to know, I didn't realize someone had managed an external microphone ^_^

I think this proves the point more than anything. If this keeps working after the SDK is released then apple's built-in support for it is not required.

[jayducharme]

If the iPod Touch is the 'Mainstream Wi-Fi Mobile Platform', then what does that make the iPhone, the 'Mainstream Wi-Fi Mobile Platform, Plus Phone'?

Good question. It seemed that originally Apple was trying to differentiate the Touch from the iPhone. Now the line is blurring even more. I mentioned in another post about the FCC auctioning off parts of the UHF spectrum in the near future, specifically for WiFi usage. That could greatly expand the usefulness of the Touch, not having to hunt for hot spots. (Of course, I'd have to then buy a new Touch to receive that frequency. Ah well, life in the fast lane...)

I too really love the device, and eagerly show it to everyone I can. It's a great example of technology done right.

Now if Apple would only fix the Calendar alarm. ;)

[Kar98]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

During Apple's conference call today, Apple executives described the iPod touch as a potentially the "first mainstream Wi-Fi mobile platform, running all kinds of mobile applications".

Well, other than Palm PDAs, and Windows mobile devices, that is. :D
Less talking, more delivering, please.

[Tom J]

honestly i dont think apple had these thoughs in mind when FIRSt developing the iPod Touch.

In fact steve made it clear that he only considered the iPod Touch a high-end iPod.

We hang on every syllable that Steve utters. If he had said anything other than that, he would have raised expectations beyond what he was able to deliver on in the near future. Despite what he said, it was clear that the touch was the basis for something big.

I agree with mozmac, Apple keeps assembling pieces to the grand puzzle. I wish I knew what is is.

[billystlyes]

'Mainstream Wi-Fi Mobile Platform'

Of coarse they are. Charging $20 for a couple of apps at a time is the motivation.

[MrCrowbar]

I'm very interested in the SDK. Don't have an iPhone or iPod Touch yet, but I might get one if the SDK rocks. I wish the apps would be handled like OSX widget. You could find them on the Apple website (i-Widgets right next to the Mac widgets) but also elsewhere. Some widgets require you to pay after a while. I'd also be fine with free and commercial widgets via iTunes Store.
Actually I think a lot of widgets could run on the small devices without too much modification besides scaling. I mean, it's all Web technology. I'd love to make something with webclip and just drag the thing to iTunes, resize it to fit snug on the iPhone screen. But Native apps could actually be powerful. Imagine VLC Player, GarageBuy or Transmission on your iPod Touch. There's a lot of potential and the open source will embrace it I'm sure, even if the device itself is a little expensive.

[Neuro]

Funnily enough, when I got my iPod Touch, I just used it as a mobile browsing device, for which I found it a great pleasure to use. The music side was very much secondary.

To back up their claims, what other mobile web platform has taken off in the same way and as quickly as the Touch/iPhone?

[Stang68]

I will believe it when they add 802.1X. Until then, it's just a touchscreen iPod.

Can't agree with you more. Someone here said that the touch is the ultimate "college device" because of wifi campuses. WRONG! Most campuses use 802.1x authentication. I dont know why the touch doesnt support it!

[Macula]

'Mainstream Wi-Fi Mobile Platform'.

Read 'Mac Tablet'.

That's it.

[basesloaded190]

Can't agree with you more. Someone here said that the touch is the ultimate "college device" because of wifi campuses. WRONG! Most campuses use 802.1x authentication. I dont know why the touch doesnt support it!

I can't use mine at campus as of now. If they were to change that I would be a very happy man cuz right now it sucks not being able to get online at school

[milo]

Well, other than Palm PDAs, and Windows mobile devices, that is. :D

Wifi palms and Win mobile devices have sold enough to be considered "mainstream"? Win mobile is notorious for being a giant failure, it only got about 5% of smartphone market share.

[Agathon]

Newton 2.0... and they didn't even realize it!

Yeah they did. I've been saying since it came out that this is the new Newton.

[Eraserhead]

I will believe it when they add 802.1X. Until then, it's just a touchscreen iPod.

It has VPN support right now, see VPN on the iPod Touch

[BrownManUPS]

I can't use mine at campus as of now. If they were to change that I would be a very happy man cuz right now it sucks not being able to get online at school

Can't agree with you more. Someone here said that the touch is the ultimate "college device" because of wifi campuses. WRONG! Most campuses use 802.1x authentication. I dont know why the touch doesnt support it!

I guess so, being at IU Blooington, they use some sort of encryption that the iTouch supports...I think it is WPA. It records the mac address of my ipod and then it doesn't forget it and allows me to use it, provided I put my username and password.

The support should come though, it would be foolish if Apple didn't put it on.

[lazyrighteye]

Apple is planning on launching a Software Developer's Kit (SDK) in February for both the iPod touch and iPhone, and it appears that Apple is approaching this seriously.

There have been reports that some early developers have already received copies of the SDK and are already working on iPod/iPhone applications. No announcements have yet been made about general developer accessibility to the SDK.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/01/22/ipod-touch-mainstream-wi-fi-mobile-platform/)

I.
Can't.
Wait.

[dwl017]

Yup. Gmail created a specific interface for it too.

Good to know but is this an app that the average Joe can set up ? not a hack

[Kar98]

Wifi palms and Win mobile devices have sold enough to be considered "mainstream"?

My MOTHER has one, and she's 57. My car mechanic has one, and he's about the same age.

Win mobile is notorious for being a giant failure, it only got about 5% of smartphone market share.

11% of the global "smartphone" market share, and I'm too lazy to find the numbers, but HTC sold 2 million of its Touch alone last year. That's not counting their 47eleventy other models they sell under their own name and build for others.

[GeekLawyer]

Good to know but is this an app that the average Joe can set up ? not a hack

It's pretty easy on my end. ;)

www.google.com/m

[Works4Me]

This sounds great. I'm planning to buy one as soon as the second rev shows up (assuming that Apple ups the capacity).

[Neuro]

Does anyone really see Windows mobile as anything other than a crippled phone OS? The Apple OS just feels and looks next-gen on a mobile device.

Actual consumers *can't wait* for the Touch/iPhone SDK to be released so they can hurl their money at the new apps. You can't say that about new versions of Windows Mobile.

[Kar98]

Does anyone really see Windows mobile as anything other than a crippled phone OS?

Nope. Why?

The Apple OS just feels and looks next-gen on a mobile device.

Dude...

Actual consumers *can't wait* for the Touch/iPhone SDK to be released so they can hurl their money at the new apps. You can't say that about new versions of Windows Mobile.

No, they already ARE able to buy or write their own apps. Imagine! :eek:

[liberty4all]

Looks like Polymer Vision's might be in a future iPhone/Touch

http://www.news.com/Phone-with-fold-away-screen-to-launch-in-mid-2008/2100-1041_3-6227035.html?tag=ne.fd.mnbc

http://i.n.com.com/i/ne/p/2007/polymer_hand_open_550x367.jpg
http://i.n.com.com/i/ne/p/2007/polymer_halfopen_550x367.jpg
http://i.n.com.com/i/ne/p/2007/polymer_closed_550x367.jpg

[rl.]

Thing that i think is making apple think this way now is ALL the 3'rd party support the device has gotten throuhg jailbreaking. sure steve doesnt like jailbreakers... but he can't help but admit that ALOT of support from ALOT of people have gone into it, and that it's obvious this device could become something EXTREMELY big if he allows it.

Here is a challenge for you all, say the first sentence of this quote three times fast. I get that this is a forum, but lets try to keep the English "readable"

[Dimwhit]

I don't think we're all going to be as excited about all this when we find out how much all these extra apps are going to cost...

[panamajack]

I will believe it when they add 802.1X. Until then, it's just a touchscreen iPod.

Just a touchscreen iPod that can log onto most 802.11g networks, surf the web, etc.

Could you explain why 802.1x support is so crucial for you ? I'm certainly excited about getting on. For University denizens who typically now live/work in wifi saturated areas, the Touch is a very compelling product.

[aLoC]

I think the SDK is a mistake. Apple should control the apps on the Touch so some third party's lowqual app doesn't ruin the Touch's reputation.

[conshok26]

I think I remember hearing that once its released that you'd be able to download apps right on the iPhone/touch from the iTunes store. Anyone else remember this?

[TedB]

No, they already ARE able to buy or write their own apps. Imagine! :eek:

Imagine! A mobile device that is about to gain the functions that is has taken Windows Mobile 8ish years to perfect! I get what you are saying, but Windows Mobile has been out for quite awhile (since 2000). The iPhone has not even been out for a year (sale wise) and it is already doing things that microsoft has been trying to do for a long time. iPhones already have topped windows mobile devices in the market share of web traffic, even though there are far less iPhones out there. Once the SDK is out and the second gen iPhone is out, it will be a hard platform to beat.

[Neuro]

I don't think we're all going to be as excited about all this when we find out how much all these extra apps are going to cost...

I think anyone with Apple stock should be excited.

[Stang68]

Just a touchscreen iPod that can log onto most 802.11g networks, surf the web, etc.

Could you explain why 802.1x support is so crucial for you ? I'm certainly excited about getting on. For University denizens who typically now live/work in wifi saturated areas, the Touch is a very compelling product.

What you dont know is that most campus wifi is protected with 802.1x, a supplicant that requires you to enter your username and password...something the touch cannot do.

[Kar98]

Imagine! A mobile device that is about to gain the functions that is has taken Windows Mobile 8ish years to perfect! I get what you are saying, but Windows Mobile has been out for quite awhile (since 2000). The iPhone has not even been out for a year (sale wise) and it is already doing things that microsoft has been trying to do for a long time.

Name one thing that's not a silly gimmick, and I'll name you three things a WM6 PDA phone can do that the iPhone can't, for each.

iPhones already have topped windows mobile devices in the market share of web traffic, even though there are far less iPhones out there.

:D [citation needed] :D

[twoodcc]

cool. maybe there is more to the iPod Touch than meets the eye?

looking forward to new iPhone apps though!

[Marx55]

That is great news, but only if it runs a full Mac OS X 10.5.1 inside with full quality video out. The full Mac on your pocket. The full Mac on your hand. The ultimate presentation remote. Both wired and wireless. Like this, but with Mac OS X and Firewire:

OQO Model e2
http://www.oqo.com

Apple, you can now do it with Intel Silverthorne. We need tons now for our University.

[Neuro]

The difference is, most consumers PERCEIVE the iPod Touch/iPhone as something different, newer and better than the other mobile platforms. That's the sales edge.

However, while you can argue that you can do the same things in browsers on the other platforms, I'd argue the experience on Safari is more reliable and consistent with that of a desktop browser.

Everyone knows IE is not standards compliant. This can't help with cross-platform web-apps written by platform agnostic developers.

[Derwood]

...now lets see someone produce a decent dock-connector mic attachment that has good frequency response and couple that with a nice basic recording/editing suite that will do 24-bit audio and :apple: can take the money that I will otherwise be spending on an Edirol or something similar.

Bingo-bango.

The SDK release is going to be the best thing that ever happened for the iPod Touch or the iPhone. Well excited to see what comes through in the next couple months.

[MattInOz]

I don't think we're all going to be as excited about all this when we find out how much all these extra apps are going to cost...

Sure they will cost, that's the point. It's really up to the developer to work the magic numbers.

Still beats signing up for ADC and writing your own.
Well you might write one or two but then i guess you'd be trying to make money if you do.

[gothiquegirrl]

Can you receive and send Gmail on the Touch ?

Yes. Through safari or the mail app.

Ang

[dfoster1992]

Can you receive and send Gmail on the Touch ?


Yes. The mail application, avalible on all newer models (that dont have the price cut) and part of the January Upgrade Package, on the iPhone and iPod Touch are the same thing.
:apple:

[Dagless]

I'm really thinking about dropping the iPhone idea and getting an iPod Touch. And Apples words don't make it any harder :D Especially if Skype does somehow come to the iPod Touch.

[TedB]

Name one thing that's not a silly gimmick, and I'll name you three things a WM6 PDA phone can do that the iPhone can't, for each.

Thats not the point I was making, the fact is that this software has come a long way in a very short amount of time when you compare it against WM. WM has been out for years... the iPhone has not even been out for a year

:D [citation needed] :D

No problem at all.... since it is no secret that what I said is true...

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=10&qptimeframe=M&qpsp=106&qpmr=14&qpdt=1&qpct=0&sample=4

and thats old.. heres new numbers..

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8

[compuguy1088]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/3B48b Safari/419.3)

I was skeptical about what the iPod touch would provide if the iPhone was so powerful in the market, and was on the fence for a while about getting one...but I realized that when the SDK comes out the apps on it are going to be stellar and it is worth having 16 GB of space rather than the 8GB, battery-eating, all-in-one solution.

This touch is an iPod, PDA, and an excellent sidekick when on the road. The battery life has been amazing and the music is excellent while having a great organizing calendar, notes, mail, and map device. This software update is the beginning of exciting things to come for it and I am glad I adopted the device now.

I expect a 30 GB one out when back-to-school hits for a larger PDA solution for college kids, as now that college campuses are wired to have wi-fi everywhere, this is the perfect device.

The part about campuses and wi-fi only applies if is not using radius, like my campus does. Lucky for me, they have good cell coverage.

[Rocketman]

I also listened to that conference call and fixated on that comment. With the iPhone they get recurring revenues through revenue share plans with the data carrier. With iPod Touch they get recurring revenue from moderate price software updates. Is that a version of a subscription model?

The iTunes revenues according to Apple should be ignored simply because they bring down revenue growth rates due to lower margins per unit sales.

I wonder what the gross fraction of profits is hardware vs. software. I would claim hardware is multiples of software gross simply because of higher margins and Steve's statement the average paid content per unit is low.

Rocketman

[jicon]

I think anyone with Apple stock should be excited.

You should do some asking around. The stock has taken a pounding today.
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=OBR&date=20080122&id=8076700

Not exciting.

[dom7]

I will believe it when they add 802.1X. Until then, it's just a touchscreen iPod.

Without 802.1x, all us college students will never be able to use it as a "Mobile Platform".

[GeekLawyer]

You should do some asking around. The stock has taken a pounding today.
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=OBR&date=20080122&id=8076700

Not exciting.

You have to be kidding me. The whole market is in the toilet and will be for some time. The fact that APPL is posting $1.58B in profit for 2007Q4 is nothing short of amazing. However, until this recession mess sorts out, I wouldn't blame the stock price on much of anything Apple does or doesn't.

[Chupa Chupa]

You should do some asking around. The stock has taken a pounding today.
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=OBR&date=20080122&id=8076700

Not exciting.


If you are a day trader maybe. If you can think further out than tomorrow it's exciting. Apple had it's best quarter ever in both profits and sales. The Mac growth story has only started, given it was near 2% marketshare a few years ago and still only at around 6%.

[Chupa Chupa]

I also listened to that conference call and fixated on that comment. With the iPhone they get recurring revenues through revenue share plans with the data carrier. With iPod Touch they get recurring revenue from moderate price software updates. Is that a version of a subscription model?



No, the Touch is not accounted for on a subscription basis. Apple books the entire profit in the quarter it is received.

[TitoC]

Name one thing that's not a silly gimmick, and I'll name you three things a WM6 PDA phone can do that the iPhone can't, for each.

OK. Here's 5:

(1) Built-in Google Maps (and don't tell me that WM does it too, I've had both a Blackberry AND a Palm Treo, they both sucked at this. GPS or no GPS).
(2) BEST MP3 Player and Video Player on the market. Period.
(3) Best Browser (try to view a web site on any PDA that doesn't make you want to throw it against a wall).
(4) Best Photo Viewer. And no, this is not a gimmick. I use it 3-4 times a week to show things to my clients.
(5) And most of all . . . . Best Interface. Yeah, that's right. As an Interface Designer myself, I can't tell you how many times it made me vomit to look at the **** companies put out there and had the audacity to call something an "interface." If you make something that people would use many times in one day, make something that works well, makes sense and is intuitive. The iPhone made companies finally realize that a user interface for a cell phone, PDA or Smartphone didn't have to look like it came out of a bad 70's Sci-Fi reject film.

And I'm sure you going to come back with some rebuttal about how Windows Mobile can do this and do that and how it can make toast and call your mother on her birthday and how it can do your taxes for you and on, and on, and on. But the point is that yes, the iPhone can't do those things, but you know what? The things that it does do, it does them quite well. And to me, I would rather have a device like this that works, works well and doesn't try to do everything for everybody. When a company tries to do everything for everybody, it has lost the battle and instead settled for complacency and mediocrity.

You can settle. I won't.

[gifford]

In fact steve made it clear that he only considered the iPod Touch a high-end iPod.
.

Never listen to Steve, it is no reflection on what he truly believes.

[Kar98]

OK. Here's 5:

(1) Built-in Google Maps (and don't tell me that WM does it too,)


Well. But it does. http://www.google.com/gmm/index.html
Plus: available _real_ GPS navigation, with points of interest that you can dial directly from the listing. With automated live update of your position and visual and voice guidance. Plus available third party POIs.

(2) BEST MP3 Player and Video Player on the market. Period.

'k, I'll give you that. Swappable memory cards? 8GB SD are down to $69 these days.

(3) Best Browser

Absolutely not.

...

Sorry, bored already.

When a company tries to do everything for everybody, it has lost the battle and instead settled for complacency and mediocrity.

Hey, it wasn't /me/ who claimed the iPhone/iTouch is gonna be the first mainstream wireless device.

You can settle. I won't.

So why do you settle for such a half-assed piece of manure like the iPhone/iTouch? Just because St. Jobs tells ya you don't need copy&paste etc.? (well y'all know all the points why it blows chunks)

[Stella]

Nope Apple aren't the first, there's others before it. In fact, I'd call any WIFI enabled smartphone or PDA with a worldwide marketshare ( note: worldwide, not u.s only) of over 10% 'mainstream'. All of these are open platforms too - developers freely allowed to develop their own apps.

The Touch would be a lot better if it was open. Until Apple ship its vapourware(*) SDK for the touch, its crippled as far as I'm concerned.

*If people call Android Vapourware on these forums, even though its well before its stated release date, then I'm calling the Apple iPHone / Touch SDK Vapour.

[JAT]

Sorry, bored already.


Quite the rebuttal, there. Was that the 3rd thing WM does that iPhone doesn't? Because that does seem to be the consensus.

We have many Treos in my company, they are much-maligned. So were their predecessors, a mix of stuff. And nobody will upgrade (read: try something else) because we aren't on AT&T and they aren't allowed to get iPhones. Only 2 people really use them other than as a phone, and just for email on the road.

[Sandfleaz]

Bought the new apps for my Touch, money well spent.

The more time I spend with the Touch the more I'm impressed!

[YuriVoorhak]

...such a half-assed piece of manure like the iPhone/iTouch? Just because St. Jobs tells ya you don't need copy&paste etc.? (well y'all know all the points why it blows chunks)

Sir, you make a reasonable and sober argument here! This device was clearly the substandard effort of a group of shiftless and unintelligent hacks! To think some guy pumping Win Mobile on a Mac forum would lift this veil of ignorance from my eyes! :rolleyes:

Really though, I got an iPod touch to develop for the iPhone. It's great to hear I might be where all the action is after all. I predicted that Apple was poised to dominate this space, and it looks like I was accurate for a change. Having a touch in my hot little hands, I suspect this is going to be a huge win for "St. Jobs" and Co.

[TitoC]

(3) Best Browser
Absolutely not.


Are you ******** serious? Sweet Jesus, are you that far up your Windows Media's device that you can't even see the light of day? Go ahead, show me some piece of crap WM browser that even tries to hold a candle to Safari on an iPhone? Are you kidding me? Do you really want all and I mean ALL the reviews that stated "this is the best browser on any cell phone, PDA OR Smartphone?"

You can nitpick every thing wrong with every little nook and cranny you find wrong with an iPhone. But we all really know what you are doing. You're just some Windows tool, coming in on a Mac-related site so you can bash everything that is Apple. Go right ahead if it helps you sleep at night. You know, we're all just trying to have a civil discussion in these forums, and we don't need some 13 year old coming in here and acting like his mom took away his Playboys. Here's some advice: Go to your Windows Mobile forum sites and stop throwing "manure" around (as you so eloquently put it).

P.S. Do your homework and go to bed. I'm sure it's way past your bedtime.

[BrownManUPS]

What you dont know is that most campus wifi is protected with 802.1x, a supplicant that requires you to enter your username and password...something the touch cannot do.

Says who? The first thing the touch asked me was for a username and password. After that, it hasn't asked me it again.

And you can do authentication under the network settings...is that something different?

I don't know I can't speak for you I guess but my network is working great and I love my iPod :).

[GQB]

Can you receive and send Gmail on the Touch ?

Boy, can you ever.
With the new mail app on the touch, accessing Gmail is almost as easy to use as the desktop version (at least for reading.)
Really well done.

[GQB]

Third-party microphones.

The hand-built microphone that I just bought from the Touchmods team for my iPod touch works great with the SIP-VoIP application released for jailbroken iPods.

I've already made several overseas calls using the setup.

While I'll wait for supported product, I've been hoping for a variety of snap-ons for the docking port. I have no problem with the idea of having a collection of snap-ons that I use when needed, but keep the base unit slim for 90% of its use.
First 2 on my wish list:
1) 3 megapixel camera (or better) with zoom, its own battery and flash (the touch becoming a great viewfinder and brain.)
2) High quality DSP for field recording.

I wouldn't even mind if snapping them on made the whole package look a little Transformer-ish... might even add to the fun.

[LizKat]

I don't think we're all going to be as excited about all this when we find out how much all these extra apps are going to cost...

Why not?

Surely you would attribute some value to the efforts of the developers who bring application software to market?

People who create this stuff save us the trouble of doing it ourselves, assuming our talents even lie in that plane.

I don't know what you do for a living, or why people are willing to pay you to do it. I did get paid for the software I helped design, for the code I wrote, for the time I spent making it behave predictably for the clients. I could not have written it for free because I would have had to spend that time doing something else to round up three meals a day and to sleep under a roof every night.

[Westside guy]

What you dont know is that most campus wifi is protected with 802.1x, a supplicant that requires you to enter your username and password...something the touch cannot do.

This certainly isn't true at the University of Washington.

On a completely different topic - one of our Windows admins was just complaining about his Windows Mobile browser, and how it didn't work with gmail because his password was longer than 12 characters. I did ask him why his browser should care about his password length, since Google certainly didn't; but he didn't have a good answer for that...

[jicon]

You have to be kidding me. The whole market is in the toilet and will be for some time. The fact that APPL is posting $1.58B in profit for 2007Q4 is nothing short of amazing. However, until this recession mess sorts out, I wouldn't blame the stock price on much of anything Apple does or doesn't.

And I haven't. I'm not blaming Apple for anything. It just isn't a stock I'd be happy to have in my pocket today. Apple's outlook is more recession based than anything, and that doesn't help anyone's books. The fact that Apple predicts a weaker quarter speaks volumes more to investors than a record profit or new mainstream wi-fi platform however.

Apple's stock has gone from $200 to $135 in the past three months, certainly today is not the day to be excited for the stock. Wait till it bottoms out first. I still think it'll drop another $10 - $20.

[GQB]

Quite the rebuttal, there. Was that the 3rd thing WM does that iPhone doesn't? Because that does seem to be the consensus.

We have many Treos in my company, they are much-maligned. So were their predecessors, a mix of stuff. And nobody will upgrade (read: try something else) because we aren't on AT&T and they aren't allowed to get iPhones. Only 2 people really use them other than as a phone, and just for email on the road.

Just ignore the troll and he'll go back under his bridge.

[a1016neo]

I wonder when the mac tablet comes out??? :p

[lord patton]

So this is the other secret weapon that Apple has (along with phone functionality in the, well, iPhone) to manage the inevitable slowing growth of the portable media player.

5% unit growth in iPods year over year. That's a huge slowing of growth, and it's not going to pick up.

But Apple has seen it coming. They knew that the cell phone could usurp the media playing functions of dedicated mobile media players, so they came up with the iPhone. Now, with the iPod Touch, they're incorporating mobile computing and networking.

How do you maintain market dominance in a stable sector? You don't. You create a new one.

(And the growth of mobile computing/networking on a OS X enabled device like iPhone/Touch will be the real halo effect driving consumers to Macs over the next 5-7 years)

[bloodycape]

Id take the archos over this as it has a 4in screen and up to 180gb.

[GregA]

If the iPod Touch is the 'Mainstream Wi-Fi Mobile Platform', then what does that make the iPhone, the 'Mainstream Wi-Fi Mobile Platform, Plus Phone'?

It makes it a MEMBER of Apple's mainstream WiFi Mobile platform.

It actually frames the phone portion as less important to Apple's vision. Like wifi is the key, not phones (though the mobile phone's ubiquity will continue to be a very important component I'm sure!)

Perhaps they're thinking of everything that can be done over the "air".

Now - if Apple would only create an 8 inch screen/battery combo with USB keyboard and mouse (bluetooth option would be good) - that an iPhone or Touch could plug into to provide the CPU and storage, then you would have a killer ultra-portable platform.

If the SDK is up to giving us pocket iWorks.Would you prefer an 8inch screen with attached keyboard to plug into an iPhone, instead of a standalone 8inch "ultraportable" with touch screen, keyboard and the iPhone OSX?

Definitely needs a pocket iWork though

[bootedbear]

I think the SDK is a mistake. Apple should control the apps on the Touch so some third party's lowqual app doesn't ruin the Touch's reputation.
It's a good thing that only Apple makes software for the Mac. Otherwise some low-qual apps might ruin it's reputation!

Oh, wait a minute...

[Kar98]

Are you ******** serious?

Absolutely. A properly coded web site scales down to the display of the device it's displayed on. Doesn't even take any extra effort, and you can still see all the information on a 3.5" display at a glance, without having to nudge, drag, stretch, lick the display like on mobile safari.

Sweet Jesus

"Master" is sufficient.

But we all really know what you are doing. You're just some Windows tool, coming in on a Mac-related site so you can bash everything that is Apple.

Actually, I've been using a Mac exclusively for years and like my iPod very much, and I was looking forward to ditch my Windows Mobile smartphone for a better solution I hoped would be coming from Apple. Instead they present some half-assed whatsit.

Go right ahead if it helps you sleep at night. You know, we're all just trying to have a civil discussion in these forums, and we don't need some 13 year old coming in here

OK, I'll tell my son.

Here's some advice: Go to your Windows Mobile forum sites and stop throwing "manure" around (as you so eloquently put it).

You'll laugh, there ARE Windows Mobile developer sites, imagine that. :D

[GregA]

I'd call any WIFI enabled smartphone or PDA with a worldwide marketshare ( note: worldwide, not u.s only) of over 10% 'mainstream'. All of these are open platforms too - developers freely allowed to develop their own apps.

What are the numbers for WIFI enabled smartphones? I thought most of the smart phones were only beginning to offer wifi (and recently VoIP)

Thanks
ps. market share of 10% of what?

[ryanw]

honestly i dont think apple had these thoughs in mind when FIRSt developing the iPod Touch.

In fact steve made it clear that he only considered the iPod Touch a high-end iPod.

Thing that i think is making apple think this way now is ALL the 3'rd party support the device has gotten throuhg jailbreaking. sure steve doesnt like jailbreakers... but he can't help but admit that ALOT of support from ALOT of people have gone into it, and that it's obvious this device could become something EXTREMELY big if he allows it.

You're 10 thousand percent WRONG ... Steve knew exactly what he wanted the iPod touch to do. I can't tell you how I know, but there are things brewing over at apple that nobody's wildest dreams could come up with... The next 2 years are going to be wild.. hang on for a crazy ride!

[Jetson]

I'd love to see a 5 megapixel camera added and 30gb+ of storage.

[Philsy]

I can't see the point of the Touch. Why not buy an iPhone? It saves having to carry a separate phone as well as an iPod.

Or am I missing something? Is there something the Touch can do that the iPhone can't?

[queshy]

somewhat interesting, I suppose...

[cognomen42]

I can't see the point of the Touch. Why not buy an iPhone? It saves having to carry a separate phone as well as an iPod.

Or am I missing something? Is there something the Touch can do that the iPhone can't?

I know the answer to this kind of question is always "horses for courses" but let me give you my situation. I have a company mobile which is paid for and which is not likely to be upgraded to an iPhone in the foreseeable future. On the other hand, I need a PDA-type device for my contacts and calendar as well as a means of carrying around some music.

So, instead of carrying around a phone a PDA and an iPod, in this case, the iPod Touch fits my requirements exactly ....... and I don't think I'm alone.

[Agathon]

I can't see the point of the Touch. Why not buy an iPhone? It saves having to carry a separate phone as well as an iPod.

Or am I missing something? Is there something the Touch can do that the iPhone can't?

Not cost $2000 over 2 years.

[LiveForever]

Of course they had applications in mind when they first released it and the iphone. Sorry I really don't think people on forums gave him the idea.

I can't see why people gripe about paying, even a modest amount, for applications!! What does the world owe you all this stuff for free? Surely the people developing them have to eat so they can spend their days writing this stuff for us?

Selling them on itunes is also a genius idea. Yes there will be the non apple endorsed apps available off itunes but after years of viruses and dodgy crashing windows software (even though I paid for it!) I would rather have software which had some guarantee of quality control and worked most of the time.

Anyone cant write an application that is 90% right in a week or less and put it up to downlaod.Getting the last few % is what takes time and effort. Its just verifcation and its grinding, thankless, boring work testing testing testing. And that has to be paid for as it probably takes at least the same time as first writing the app in the first place.

I would rather pay for quality.

If they released an official Skype app which came with a plug in mic and head set then I will get a touch tommorrow. Its like video consoles which sell games with steering wheels etc.

[Philsy]

I know the answer to this kind of question is always "horses for courses" but let me give you my situation. I have a company mobile which is paid for and which is not likely to be upgraded to an iPhone in the foreseeable future. On the other hand, I need a PDA-type device for my contacts and calendar as well as a means of carrying around some music.

So, instead of carrying around a phone a PDA and an iPod, in this case, the iPod Touch fits my requirements exactly ....... and I don't think I'm alone.

Ah, good point.

[Philsy]

Not cost $2000 over 2 years.

But you'll be paying for a mobile anyway, albeit at a lower monthly rate.

[Spanna]

Actually, I've been using a Mac exclusively for years and like my iPod very much, and I was looking forward to ditch my Windows Mobile smartphone for a better solution I hoped would be coming from Apple. Instead they present some half-assed whatsit.

Then why has mobile safari become the most used mobile internet browser even though iphone/ipodtouch only make up a tiny fraction of all pocket internet devices. It's because mobile safari is USEABLE.

[Agathon]

Actually, I've been using Mac exclusively for years and like my iPod very much, and I was looking forward to ditch my Windows Mobile smartphone for a better solution I hoped would be coming from Apple. Instead they present some half-assed whatsit.

Sure you have.

Surely, you're trolling. I am the unhappy owner of a Windows mobile device (which I received for free, as I would never pay for one). Sure, I can watch TV on my phone in addition to doing most things that the iPhone does, but comparing WinMobile to OS X is like comparing a traction engine to a modern race car. Try Core Animation for a start. The iPhone SDK will result in quality apps that simply put Windows Mobile to shame. All you need to do is compare the mobile version of Windows Media Player with the multitouch iPod.

But the killer is that Windows mobile doesn't have multitouch. End of story. The iPhone has demonstrated that plastic keyboards, single touch screens are hopeless. There is no counterargument. Modern smart devices are too versatile to be limited to a fixed UI and single touch screens do not offer the versatility of multitouch. You probably won't be able to buy a smart device that doesn't have multitouch technology in five years time.

Come back to me when Microsoft has its OS on a device that isn't crippled by 20th century interface conventions.

[-Dark Angel-]

Now if Apple would only fix the Calendar alarm. ;)

I believe they did this with 1.1.2 update. Haven't missed any alarms since I updated to that.

[-Dark Angel-]

But you'll be paying for a mobile anyway, albeit at a lower monthly rate.
If we get the iPod touch, all we pay is for the price of the device, there is no monthly charge, thats one big reason why I don't have an iPhone.

[Philsy]

If we get the iPod touch, all we pay is for the price of the device, there is no monthly charge, thats one big reason why I don't have an iPhone.

Yes, but you are going to need some sort of mobile phone as well, so there is a cost impact there, albeit lower than the astronomical iPhone contract.

[mackiwi]

Yes, but you are going to need some sort of mobile phone as well, so there is a cost impact there, albeit lower than the astronomical iPhone contract.

Perhaps for the 5.5 billion consumers on the planet who cant buy an iphone as El Jobs refused to release an unlocked phone worldwide. At least the ipod touch is a satisfactory device to tide me over.

Oh and I currently spend about 15 bucks a month on my prepay mobile. works well as unlike some american consumers we aren't stupid enough to pay for incoming calls as well as outgoing.

[syndalis]

Sure you have.

Surely, you're trolling. I am the unhappy owner of a Windows mobile device (which I received for free, as I would never pay for one). Sure, I can watch TV on my phone in addition to doing most things that the iPhone does, but comparing WinMobile to OS X is like comparing a traction engine to a modern race car. Try Core Animation for a start. The iPhone SDK will result in quality apps that simply put Windows Mobile to shame. All you need to do is compare the mobile version of Windows Media Player with the multitouch iPod.

But the killer is that Windows mobile doesn't have multitouch. End of story. The iPhone has demonstrated that plastic keyboards, single touch screens are hopeless. There is no counterargument. Modern smart devices are too versatile to be limited to a fixed UI and single touch screens do not offer the versatility of multitouch. You probably won't be able to buy a smart device that doesn't have multitouch technology in five years time.

Come back to me when Microsoft has its OS on a device that isn't crippled by 20th century interface conventions.
Okay, I am a happy iPhone owner, but there is a severe amount of misinformation being thrown at windows mobile in here for no good reason.

The greatest strength and weakness of WM6 is that it is what you make of it. the iPhone is a great experience right out of the box, wheras you need to utilize 3rd party software to really make a WM6 device hum.

Here are the following reasons why I will not switch my staff off of WM6:

1) Pocket Informant (http://www.pocketinformant.com/products_info.php?p_id=pocketinformant&tab_id=features) - this basically craps all over any PIM on any device, iphone easily included. Full exchange integration, excellent contact grouping, easy color markings for events/contacts, syncable notes, and all sorts of great features that my office needs. And an interface closer to a desktop PIM without being unusable on the mobile platform.

2) Powerpoint Mobile - Part of the core software, this tool allows staffers to do full on powerpoint presentations from their phones, with only a cable that hooks directly into the monitor / projector. Talk about packing light for a meeting.

3) Core Player (http://www.coreplayer.com/) - the ability to play any audio or video format on your mobile device without converting or feeding through itunes is really nice sometimes.

4) ePocrates (http://www.epocrates.com/) - Medical software developed for Palm and Windows mobile. Absolutely essential in my office.

5) Opera Mobile (http://www.opera.com/products/mobile/) - full on opera browser for mobile devices, including flash, java, and AJAX support. A bit slower than safari, but a far more complete rendering of the page. when Opera 9 comes out, the fast zooming of Safari will be incorporated.

There are more reasons, but what it really comes down to is the fact that due to the wide-open nature of windows mobile, it has always been very easy to develop apps for it, which has been a boon for professions such as lawyers, physicians, sales managers, etc.

Really, a great many of these advantages will go away (well, minus the powerpoint thing) if they make the SDK wide open and let anyone develop apps for the device without having to charge money for them or force all updates through the ITMS. Cause I can guarantee Apple won't let people subvert them by making a better mail.app than them and offer it on the marketplace, because they really seem to want to maintain control over the whole process.

[sanford]

'Mainstream Wi-Fi Mobile Platform'

Of coarse they are. Charging $20 for a couple of apps at a time is the motivation.

If anyone is thinking about buying an iPod touch, waiting a while to make sure they get the new apps on it: Target is selling the models w/o the apps for $280 and $380, 8GB and 16GB respectively, so you can buy it at Target today, pay $20 for the firmware update, you get the same iPod touch and the new apps for the same price you'd pay waiting however long for the new app models to get out to mainstream retail stores.

[Philsy]

1) Pocket Informant (http://www.pocketinformant.com/products_info.php?p_id=pocketinformant&tab_id=features) - this basically craps all over any PIM on any device, iphone easily included. Full exchange integration, excellent contact grouping, easy color markings for events/contacts, syncable notes, and all sorts of great features that my office needs. And an interface closer to a desktop PIM without being unusable on the mobile platform.


I must admit, that does look rather good.

[Eraserhead]

What you dont know is that most campus wifi is protected with 802.1x, a supplicant that requires you to enter your username and password...something the touch cannot do.


Yes it can, see VPN on the iPod Touch.

FWIW to other posters 802.1X is not 802.11g ;).

Absolutely. A properly coded web site scales down to the display of the device it's displayed on.

Just like the iPod Touch? I had to add one line of code for my site to look good on the iPod Touch.


<meta name="viewport" content="width=480" />


And no, I'm not using ASP, PHP, or hell even Javascript to do this, just one set of HTML and CSS.

98930 vs 98931

[i.maverick]

I'm very interested in the SDK. Don't have an iPhone or iPod Touch yet, but I might get one if the SDK rocks. I wish the apps would be handled like OSX widget. You could find them on the Apple website (i-Widgets right next to the Mac widgets) but also elsewhere. Some widgets require you to pay after a while. I'd also be fine with free and commercial widgets via iTunes Store.


the only problem i see with using the itunes store is that the store is not there in too many countries, and especially since the iphone is supposed to launch in asia soon and the ipod touch available worldwide, it would be cruel to exclude the many who simply won't be able to access the apps cz of the store's absence. that's the problem with the current 5 apps that apple launched for the touch.
similarly for ipod games that are available. we are simply not able to buy 'em.!! in 2008, thats really sad!!

[Derwood]

...the SDK release does raise some interesting questions about how Apple responds to the emergence of 3rd party apps and hardware add-ons. VOIP, and particularly Skype, solutions appear to be quite high on everyone's wish lists.

If in 12 months time we have a legitimate (i.e. no jailbreak required) software base that includes a whole host of slick VOIP solutions and the hardware attachments to go with them, how does Apple resist the pressure to put an integrated mic into the next generation iPodTouch?

I think the SDK release is going to blur the lines between the iPhone and iPodTouch even further.

We'll see I guess,

Derwood

[MrCrowbar]

the only problem i see with using the itunes store is that the store is not there in too many countries, and especially since the iphone is supposed to launch in asia soon and the ipod touch available worldwide, it would be cruel to exclude the many who simply won't be able to access the apps cz of the store's absence. that's the problem with the current 5 apps that apple launched for the touch.
similarly for ipod games that are available. we are simply not able to buy 'em.!! in 2008, thats really sad!!

true :(

I wish for the AppleTV rentals to be international. I'm in Germany, but I wanna get non-dubbed content or choose languages and subtitles. I'd hate to only get otherwise good movies dubbed in german.

[Popeye206]

Yes, but you are going to need some sort of mobile phone as well, so there is a cost impact there, albeit lower than the astronomical iPhone contract.

What???? iPhone phone access charges (i.e. the AT&T part here in the US) is not bad at all. Only about $20 less than a Blackberry! Yes... $20 LESS when you look at the package you need to get with a Blackberry to have all the features that come with an iPhone. It's a phone and you're paying for internet access.... $60 a month (starting price) is not that bad.

Astronomical is a little overstated and dramatized. Obviously you don't actually own an iphone.

[Flynnstone]

Its kind of funny ...
We're all looking for a tablet computer, and its under our nose.

[Popeye206]

I see the iPod Touch as the next revolution to the MP3 Player market... and Apple is smart to put it's efforts here and with the iPhone. Let's face it... the regular iPods have competition coming from everywhere. Where most were crap in the past, now most are ok to really comparable in function and features... so there needs to be another revolution to breath life back in the iPod market and making it mobile... truly mobile is (IMHO) the next place to go.

Maybe we could see an iPod Touch with 3G network access for $9.99 a month (through iTunes via AT&T with no contract)... then the Touch would be truly mobile. Hummm... do that with the Air, and the MacBooks... and.... and.... Nice!

[Popeye206]

Its kind of funny ...
We're all looking for a tablet computer, and its under our nose.

You have a point! Good observation!

[Philsy]

What???? iPhone phone access charges (i.e. the AT&T part here in the US) is not bad at all. Only about $20 less than a Blackberry! Yes... $20 LESS when you look at the package you need to get with a Blackberry to have all the features that come with an iPhone. It's a phone and you're paying for internet access.... $60 a month (starting price) is not that bad.

Astronomical is a little overstated and dramatized. Obviously you don't actually own an iphone.

£35 a month in the UK, which is high, especially when we're used to getting handsets free with a contract.

[jouster]

I did get paid for the software I helped design, for the code I wrote, for the time I spent making it behave predictably for the clients. I could not have written it for free because I would have had to spend that time doing something else to round up three meals a day and to sleep under a roof every night.

QFT. Why do people have trouble with this concept?

[asrmatt]

:cool:

It may sound senseless but when at work I use my iPod touch to take notes, look at calendar and check mail... everybody just looks at me as I'm just wasting time "playing" with my iPod.

It's hard for people to take it seriously and realize what incredible technology it is... ;)

[franzmueller]

I can't see the point of the Touch. Why not buy an iPhone? It saves having to carry a separate phone as well as an iPod.

Or am I missing something? Is there something the Touch can do that the iPhone can't?

Yes your are missing something :), in my country ( Spain ) like most of the world besides of 4 countries ( US, F, G & UK) there is NO " official " iphone available .

Saludos

[wizard]

........sure steve doesnt like jailbreakers... but he can't help but admit that ALOT of support from ALOT of people have gone into it, and that it's obvious this device could become something EXTREMELY big if he allows it.

That about sums up the situation precisely. If Steve has demonstrated anything over the years it is the ability to react to things that Apple missed.

In the case of the Touch it is simply a pocketable box that many people saw a lot of potential in. Recognizing and then exploiting that potential by the jailbreakers gave Apple a bit of insight into what people need and want. Well that and the ramblings on forums like this. In the case of Touch jsut imagine how much more useful that device would have been to the Jailbreakers if it supported bluetooth.

In any event if this is a sign that Apple is responding to the market then I suspect that we will see some very interesting tablets in the near future. The current Touch for example could easily be tweaked in its current form and other models added rapidly.

Dave

[wizard]

With what microphone?

The one that any FUTURE devices from Apple needs to have. Especially if they have recognized the tablet nature of he device and what users want from it.

You mean that they should listen to *you*. Built-in VOIP in an iPod Touch would be nice but is, functionally, not even all that useful to me at the moment.

To you maybe, to the rest of us it is a viable alternative to old technology communications firms.

If the features required to use that were included, it would be extra expense at no real benefit.

An Audio input on a multimedia device has no benefit. Cute!

The key here is that Apple already has one alternative available to them in the IPhone connector. Just upgrading to that would be a vast improvement in the Touch. If for compatibility reasons that doesn't fly then a separate input can be done rather cheaply. As to the A/D electronics I wouldn't be surprised it that hardware already exists on the Touch. The cost is so nominal as to not be a concern.

That doesn't even consider the bluetooth alternative. While it certainly adds costs does so by providing much more flexibility.

The people making decisions at Apple evidently feel that this is true for a sufficiently high percentage of their customers to not make it worthwhile vs. what they did include.

Nope I don't believe that! I think the Touch was built with this idea that it would be used in a certain way and thus had the option suite adjusted to what they thought the primary usage of the device would be. It is pretty clear that they did not expect the huge demand for the jailbreak to do nothing more that run applications the users wanted.


Write them a suggestion and see if they follow it in a future release. In the meantime, you aren't their target market.

Actually I have made use of the feed back site that Apple provides and I recommend that anybody reading this thread does so also. It is simple as this if Apple doesn't know what your wants and desires are they can't respond to them. That doesn't mean they will respond to one individuals needs but if the get a sense that the market as a whole needs certain feature they very well may add the to a device. Further Apple does have a history of responding to users issues with its software and hardware.

Dave

[wizard]

What???? iPhone phone access charges (i.e. the AT&T part here in the US) is not bad at all. Only about $20 less than a Blackberry! Yes... $20 LESS when you look at the package you need to get with a Blackberry to have all the features that come with an iPhone. It's a phone and you're paying for internet access.... $60 a month (starting price) is not that bad.

Astronomical is a little overstated and dramatized. Obviously you don't actually own an iphone.

Lets see 60 x 12 = $720! That is 720 dollars a year base to have the pleasure of owning an iPhone. That is Astronomical on a phone you are suppose to own outright. The question you have to ask yourself is why after buying your phone is Apple still taking cash from you every month.

If that isn't an issue consider that a pay as you go phone might cost you $180 bucks a YEAR! So one buys a Touch and has an outlay for the year that is still less than the iPhone Contract costs for all the devices he owns.

I hate to say this but if you look upon the iPhone contracts as being a good value you have your economics all screwed up. In many ways it is a rip off.

[chadder007]

The iPod Touch is actually turning out to be something that Ive been looking for. Ive been very dissapointed in the offering in Windows Mobile units. I hate the software the OS on those, its like a cluster f#*#

[bokdol]

£35 a month in the UK, which is high, especially when we're used to getting handsets free with a contract.

does that include a data plan? i am in the us so i have no idea what uk plans are like. i mean we have cheap phone plans here too. but the thing with the iphone is it includes the data. and for that price it's not bad.

but here is hoping someone buys out that analog tv spectrum and have it open for all platforms.

anyhow could there be a possibility for someone to just make a mic and set up voip on the iphone?

[Philsy]

does that include a data plan? i am in the us so i have no idea what uk plans are like. i mean we have cheap phone plans here too. but the thing with the iphone is it includes the data. and for that price it's not bad.

but here is hoping someone buys out that analog tv spectrum and have it open for all platforms.

anyhow could there be a possibility for someone to just make a mic and set up voip on the iphone?

Yes, it includes data.

[eastcoastsurfer]

QFT. Why do people have trouble with this concept?

Guess what. Lots of people write free software in their spare time (where do you think many of the OSX underpinnings and tools came from??). Apple is afraid of this b/c as soon as an SDK is released there will be free versions of all the apps they are hoping to charge money for. I bet they end up crippling the SDK or make it so that you *have* to buy your apps through ITMS so that they can continue to get a cut. Problem is that if they do that, it will spell the end of their iphone/itouch platform.

[macpluslaptop]

I can't see the point of the Touch. Why not buy an iPhone? It saves having to carry a separate phone as well as an iPod.

Or am I missing something? Is there something the Touch can do that the iPhone can't?

I'm getting the Touch because I don't think the iPhone is a good enough phone yet, and I like my Verizon service and really like my EnV LG - in fact, that phone took a nasty fall yesterday on a tile surface and wasn't scratched. (I have a friend who had to tape up his iPhone shortly after it fell.} I know that Verizon cripples their phones, but even so I can send pictures easily, and apparently that's hard on the iPhone. And the size of the EnV is just right.

So I'll go for the Touch and get what I always wanted anyway - a decent PDA to replace my cumbersome and aging Tungsten T. Something that syncs easily with my Mac. Etc.

When the 3G iPhone comes out, and my Verizon contract ends, I'll take another look at the iP.

[bokdol]

Yes, it includes data.

so is it cheaper to buy a different phone with a data plan? in the us it's almost the same price or more if you add a data plan to a phone.

helios 500 minutes unlimited data = 65

verizonwireless 450 minute plans with unlimited mobile web = 79

att add 35 dollars to your existing plan for unlimited web.

tmobile unlimited web add 39 dollars to plan. or 29 for sidekick data plan.
* there is an a tmobileweb package for 5.99 but i dont know how full of web access it is.

so overall in the us the iphone plan compares pretty well here

[wizard]

I can't see the point of the Touch. Why not buy an iPhone? It saves having to carry a separate phone as well as an iPod.

I've been in the camp of why carry two dev9ices for a long time and frankly would like to remain in that camp. The reality of iPhone though is really working against me and I will likely ignore it in favor of the Touch.

The number one and only problem there is the contract with AT&T. It is way to expensive for what you are getting and last way too long. Until that is resolved or unlocked iPhone become available I don't see my self going the At&T route.

The problem is simple there are alternative for net access that don't require the services of At&T. As far as the phone goes it doesn't take much technology there to do communications, I could just as well have my intelligent functions in another device.

Or am I missing something? Is there something the Touch can do that the iPhone can't?
Yes it is a cheaper all around solution for one. Second comes whit more memory.

It is not perfect thus the various forums with threads looking for the new tablet from Apple. But it is quickly becoming a very good solution for the interim.

Dave

[IscariotJ]

I can't see the point of the Touch. Why not buy an iPhone? It saves having to carry a separate phone as well as an iPod.

Or am I missing something? Is there something the Touch can do that the iPhone can't?

I'd love an iPhone to replace my RAZR and Shuffle, but I refuse to be forced into using a specific mobile provider. I'm hoping this exclusivity is a timed thing, and before long all providers will have iPhone plans....

Be very interesting to see what apps comes out. As a couple of others have mentioned, a pocket iWorks has got to be a must. A pocket iChat would be useful, too.

[kent747]

I carry two devices and while it is cumbersome, its completely worth it. My wife liked our iBook, liked our iPod Mini, loves our iMac, but adores the Touch. Its been a revolutionary device for us, and now that the new (loosely used) apps are available its even better.

[Eraserhead]

Guess what. Lots of people write free software in their spare time (where do you think many of the OSX underpinnings and tools came from??). Apple is afraid of this b/c as soon as an SDK is released there will be free versions of all the apps they are hoping to charge money for. I bet they end up crippling the SDK or make it so that you *have* to buy your apps through ITMS so that they can continue to get a cut. Problem is that if they do that, it will spell the end of their iphone/itouch platform.

There are two flaws with this

#1 a lot of free software is actually heavily developed by large companies, see WebKit and OpenOffice as examples.

#2 Apple allows open-source software on the Mac and still sells software profitably, who says they can't do the same on the iPhone.

[PNW]

I can't see the point of the Touch. Why not buy an iPhone? It saves having to carry a separate phone as well as an iPod.

Or am I missing something? Is there something the Touch can do that the iPhone can't?

The touch has more storage.
ATT has really bad cell coverage where I am, especially at home.
Wifi is fairly ubiquitous where I am, so I don't really need a data plan.
So no iPhone for me until at the very least Apple unlocks it and adds more storage.

All in all I go everywhere on a bicycle, so I always have my commuter bag, hence an extra device is no big deal for me.

[eastcoastsurfer]

There are two flaws with this

#1 a lot of free software is actually heavily developed by large companies, see WebKit and OpenOffice as examples.

#2 Apple allows open-source software on the Mac and still sells software profitably, who says they can't do the same on the iPhone.

Don't see either one as flaws in my argument. If Apple lets it, there will be lots of free software on the iphone/itouch (which is really all I was responding too). Heck, even with Apple not letting it there is already lots of free software out there for each device. What I was saying is that if they keep the system closed, it will never be as successful as one that is open. Charging $20 for apps that should've been on the itouch to start is an indication to me that they may try to keep the itouch/iphone closed even after an SDK is released.

In the world of control freak Steve Jobs, I know he hates it every time I start Adium or use FF/Camino lol.

[Eraserhead]

In the world of control freak Steve Jobs, I know he hates it every time I start Adium or use FF/Camino lol.

Which is why Apple makes WebKit open source :rolleyes:, Apple doesn't care if you use Open Source applications.

[Tosser]

OK. Here's 5:
(2) BEST MP3 Player and Video Player on the market. Period.


Sorry, but it's not. The amplifier (could be the DAC, though) seems to hiss: The noise floor is way too high. If it's the DAC, they might be able to correct it with a firmware update.

Also, a problem with the touch –*and any old all-screen musik player, as well as the 3G iPod is that you have to look at it in order to use it (how do you do that while it is in your pocket?)

There's another problem with it, and that is the recessed headphone plug. Now, I don't know about you, but I care about audio quality, hence I use proper headphones and not some crappy ones that came in the box. The best audio player? I don't think so. People seem to agree that the 5.5 was way better. Don't tell me that a "music player" can be the best ever if the audio isn't top notch.



You can settle. I won't.

Well, you have certainly made some concessions audio quality-wise in order to get a music player that does other things as well. Go check out iRiver. I'm serious.

[Alphy]

I absolutely love my 1.12 touch and all the extra applications I have on it; why bring a laptop to my college lectures when I can pull up an .ppt or .pdf in my hand? And with most campuses covered by Wifi, it really is a wonderful piece of hardware.

I will be in heaven once they release a Slingbox app under the SDK. :D :apple:

[GQB]

I can't see the point of the Touch. Why not buy an iPhone? It saves having to carry a separate phone as well as an iPod.

Or am I missing something? Is there something the Touch can do that the iPhone can't?

currently:
1) slimmer
2) more memory (for now... that will obviously change)
3) some people (believe it or not) don't need or even want 24/7 phone coverage.
4) AT&T isn't the right carrier for some.

[Tosser]

currently:
1) slimmer
2) more memory (for now... that will obviously change)
3) some people (believe it or not) don't need or even want 24/7 phone coverage.
4) AT&T isn't the right carrier for some.

5) some people prefer not to run down the battery on the gadget that people use to get into with you, just to play music (or other stuff)

6) by having separates you can go on the net/read a mail/document what-have-you while on the phone.

7) If chosen carefully, you get better quality overall by having dedicated equipment.

[GQB]

Yes, but you are going to need some sort of mobile phone as well, so there is a cost impact there, albeit lower than the astronomical iPhone contract.

1) having a cell phone is not, contrary to popular opinion, a basic necessity of life.
2) $60-100/mo for voice/data is far from astronomical, at least as far as I've seen for comparable services.
Pulling one out of the hat (or google search, as it were)
http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/26/how-does-the-iphone-stack-up-in-total-cost/

Seems like it fairly comparable, maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less, but hardly "astronomical" either way.

Eiger on Roughlydrafted comes out with iPhone being cheaper.

[Eraserhead]

Well, you have certainly made some concessions audio quality-wise in order to get a music player that does other things as well. Go check out iRiver. I'm serious.

Given that apparently iRiver<iAudio in sound quality, and that in my experience iAudio<iPod in sound quality I doubt it. Creative MP3 players do generally sound good though.

[GQB]

Really, a great many of these advantages will go away (well, minus the powerpoint thing) .

Put that into the iPhone 'plus' column for me. :)

[Llywelyn]

Guess what. Lots of people write free software in their spare time (where do you think many of the OSX underpinnings and tools came from??). Apple is afraid of this b/c as soon as an SDK is released there will be free versions of all the apps they are hoping to charge money for. I bet they end up crippling the SDK or make it so that you *have* to buy your apps through ITMS so that they can continue to get a cut. Problem is that if they do that, it will spell the end of their iphone/itouch platform.


Paranoid much? You should ammend your statement to "Lots [sic] of people write poor quality software in their spare time." There are some good counterexamples out there, but many if not most open source projects are undocumented messes with lousy user interfaces and/or designs. Many have been abandoned and are, for all intents and purposes, dead since the reimplementation cost is frequently lower than the cost of learning how to use it and updating it.

Apple is not "afraid" of anything: Apple is a company who's top priority is the profit it makes (legally obligated, actually). If it believes the best way to do this is through open source, they have traditionally been more than willing to leverage it or encourage its use.

Examples? On MacOS X X11 is bundled, free development tools are provided, and new tools that encourage third-party development come out all of the time (e.g., CoreData, CoreAnimation, etc.). They include Python and Ruby with bindings, and have done nothing to stop projects such as Fink and Darwin ports.

They haven't seemed to care if people try and compete against Pages, Numbers, Bento, etc. I don't see why things would be different for this case.

There will be an SDK for the iPod Touch/iPhone and I have seen no evidence to suggest that it will be crippled beyond posts such as yours. Its an interesting thought--that may even prove to be accurate, though I highly doubt it--but there is zero evidence of it at this time and several things that would lead me to think that it will not be crippled at all vs. what Apple does with their own applications.

[Lord Sam]

I totally agree with Apple on that 1. I use my iPod touch for almost everything! In fact, I am even typing this from my iPod touch, that's how much I use it. It is fantastic, especially with the new apps, although the 12.99 pound price tag was a little much. Or, a lot much. But that aside, it is absolutely wonderful... when you're in a wifi HotSpot.:mad::)

[GQB]

Lets see 60 x 12 = $720! That is 720 dollars a year base to have the pleasure of owning an iPhone. That is Astronomical on a phone you are suppose to own outright. The question you have to ask yourself is why after buying your phone is Apple still taking cash from you every month.

If that isn't an issue consider that a pay as you go phone might cost you $180 bucks a YEAR! So one buys a Touch and has an outlay for the year that is still less than the iPhone Contract costs for all the devices he owns.

I hate to say this but if you look upon the iPhone contracts as being a good value you have your economics all screwed up. In many ways it is a rip off.

Well, at least be intellectually honest enough to compare apples to apples. If you're saying that its cheaper for you, given your phone use patterns, (limited phone use and no data use) then you're probably right... the iPhone isn't for you. I don't think that applies to the majority of users tho', particularly smart phone users. Most of them are going to be on contract of some sort that includes data, and for that more appropriate comparison, I've seen the cost diffs vary mildly both ways, depending on the axe being ground by the analyst.

[GQB]

Guess what. Lots of people write free software in their spare time (where do you think many of the OSX underpinnings and tools came from??). Apple is afraid of this b/c as soon as an SDK is released there will be free versions of all the apps they are hoping to charge money for. I bet they end up crippling the SDK or make it so that you *have* to buy your apps through ITMS so that they can continue to get a cut. Problem is that if they do that, it will spell the end of their iphone/itouch platform.

Last thing I'm putting on any device (computer or phone) is software that was written by someone 'in their spare time.' (a description that includes most 'virus artists'.

I want 2 types of software.
1) that's been vetted. You can have the Windows crapware model.
2) that I've written myself, for my own, very niche, use.

We'll see what the SDK allows.

[Breckenridge]

While apple has created lots of cool products over the past decade, the most thanks go to the open source community that made it possible for Apple to have OS X in the first place.

Apple product quality has gone done and I've been shipping at least 2-3 machines, out of 15 desktop and notebooks, a year back to apple for hardware fixes. 2 iPhones had to be replaced, 7 apple mice had to be replaced, 2 minis had to be replaced and dot mac support has been less than adequate. 90 days phone support unless you pay $300 + is an indication that Apple really doesn't care about the quality of their products or the satisfaction of the consumer. Shorter than advertised battery life issues have been a problem on almost all recent apple hardware. WiFi connectivity issues with non-apple wifi nodes has not been very reliable lately.

The more macs sold the more you are going to hear stories like mine. I will still buy macs but I just wished that Apple will correct some of these issues and not go down the same hellish path Dell took 2-3 years ago.

[Tosser]

Given that apparently iRiver<iAudio in sound quality, and that in my experience iAudio<iPod in sound quality I doubt it. Creative MP3 players do generally sound good though.

Well, my point was, that the iRiver is better than the Touch. Not iPods in general. However, I seriously doubt your "ear", if you consider ipods to the best audio-wise of the three of them.

Of course, most of them wil sound excellent if used Ipod Line Out>Headphone Amp>Good headphones.

Oh, and of course, avoid lossy formats. No matter how much you polish a turd, it's still a turd.

[eastcoastsurfer]

Last thing I'm putting on any device (computer or phone) is software that was written by someone 'in their spare time.' (a description that includes most 'virus artists'.

I want 2 types of software.
1) that's been vetted. You can have the Windows crapware model.
2) that I've written myself, for my own, very niche, use.

We'll see what the SDK allows.

Paranoid much? You should ammend your statement to "Lots [sic] of people write poor quality software in their spare time." There are some good counterexamples out there, but many if not most open source projects are undocumented messes with lousy user interfaces and/or designs. Many have been abandoned and are, for all intents and purposes, dead since the reimplementation cost is frequently lower than the cost of learning how to use it and updating it.


You're both aware that without open source and free software there would be no OSX right? So does that make OSX poor quality software?


There will be an SDK for the iPod Touch/iPhone and I have seen no evidence to suggest that it will be crippled beyond posts such as yours. Its an interesting thought--that may even prove to be accurate, though I highly doubt it--but there is zero evidence of it at this time and several things that would lead me to think that it will not be crippled at all vs. what Apple does with their own applications.

Except that there was no SDK at release and they are working damn hard to keep both the iphone and itouch from being jailbroken. Some other evidence that they cripple on purpose? Look at the Airport/Airdisk fiasco and Time Machine. They even demoed Time Machine working over an air disk and took it out at the last minute. I think the Time Capsule shows pretty clearly why they did this. Not to mention that they even go as far as crippling (http://blogs.sun.com/ahl/entry/mac_os_x_and_the) some the open source apps that they do include.

What happened to Apple being about thinking differently instead of thinking the way Steve Jobs tells you to? Back when the Apple IIs were around iirc, they included system board specs so you could hack away if you wanted.

[elcid]

I will believe it when they add 802.1X. Until then, it's just a touchscreen iPod.

Amen. I was looking for someone who said it. It is not the best wireless platform because it cannot to anything but open and home networks. Give it 802.1X like all other devices and I will consider it.

[GQB]

You're both aware that without open source and free software there would be no OSX right? So does that make OSX poor quality software?



(FWIW, I'm a proponent of opensource requirements for voting systems.)

But what's your point? You're not seriously suggesting that open source OS development that resulted in Unix, which has been going on for decades by the best minds in software is somehow comparable to Joe Crapware, writing some VB virus vector in his bedroom while trying to get a job through Monster?

Again, nothing goes on my machine that isn't from a supported, responsible source (at least as best I can determine) or that I or my company wrote.

[regan]

Then its time to update the sucker. Add a camera. Bump the flashdrive to at least 30gigs.

THEN....and only then will it truly live up to the mainstream mobile wifi platform moniker.

It's great now, don't get me wrong. But it's time to unleash the hounds and make it even BETTER. :-)

[eastcoastsurfer]

(FWIW, I'm a proponent of opensource requirements for voting systems.)

But what's your point? You're not seriously suggesting that open source OS development that resulted in Unix, which has been going on for decades by the best minds in software is somehow comparable to Joe Crapware, writing some VB virus vector in his bedroom while trying to get a job through Monster?

Again, nothing goes on my machine that isn't from a supported, responsible source (at least as best I can determine) or that I or my company wrote.

So no Adium? VLC? Quicksilver? Or the the plugins that go with those? Or the numerous little utilities that you can get to help manage OS X better? How about all of the dashboard widgets? You better not use any of those either. Yep, lets remove all traces of open source from OSX. Wait! Where would that leave safari? Webkit started with KHTML (the KDE rendering engine). I think the guys who do KDE are smart, but I wasn't aware they were also the best minds OS design and made UNIX too!

There is lots of crap pay for software out there too (OSX seems to have a glut of $10-$20 products like this), but that doesn't mean I assume all are crap.

[jouster]

Guess what. Lots of people write free software in their spare time

So what? That has nothing to do with those who decide to charge because they depend on sales for a living.

Problem is that if they do that, it will spell the end of their iphone/itouch platform.

Like the iTMS spelled the end of online music sales?

[Llywelyn]

You're both aware that without open source and free software there would be no OSX right? So does that make OSX poor quality software?


Your reading comprehension is either startling bad or you didn't get past the first sentence of that paragraph you quoted.


There are some good counterexamples out there, but many if not most open source projects are undocumented messes with lousy user interfaces and/or designs.


If I say that "Many if not most of what is in X is poor" you can't say "y is in X, so you're saying y is poor?"



Except that there was no SDK at release and they are working damn hard to keep both the iphone and itouch from being jailbroken.


There are numerous reasons there was no public SDK when the device was released. Including, quite possibly, that they hadn't finished working out the documentation for it. Or the security kinks in the device. Or simply that they hadn't had time to develop the SDK in the rush to the release.

Mountains out of molehills.

Yes, they are trying to keep them from being jailbroken. What is your point? There are numerous (potentially good) reasons to disallow this, including that they don't want people mucking around until they have everything properly sandboxed off. The truth is: we do not know the whole story here, so it is pointless to try and make one up based on your own fears.


Some other evidence that they cripple on purpose? Look at the Airport/Airdisk fiasco and Time Machine.


This has what, exactly, to do with the iPod touch/iPhone SDK?


They even demoed Time Machine working over an air disk and took it out at the last minute. I think the Time Capsule shows pretty clearly why they did this.


Or it could simply not be working consistently or require certain firmware to be in place or a thousand other potential reasons. You really think they just sat around in a board room and said "hey! let's remove that feature we've already demoed and replace it with a product we can charge for!"

It could have happened that way, but it comes down to that you don't know. It also--still--has jack all to do with the topic of discussion.


Not to mention that they even go as far as crippling (http://blogs.sun.com/ahl/entry/mac_os_x_and_the) some the open source apps that they do include.


Quoting the article you linked to "To say that Apple has crippled DTrace on Mac OS X would be a bit alarmist."

But without getting embroiled in this debate (which has been both rehashed to death and is really making an enormous fuss about nothing): it has nothing whatsoever to do with the iPod Touch, the iPhone, or the upcoming SDK.

[rtdunham]

Apple's stock has gone from $200 to $135 in the past three months, certainly today is not the day to be excited for the stock. Wait till it bottoms out first. I think it'll drop another $10-$20.

You may well be right. At any rate, I hold a lot of apple stock; i'm disappointed at the fall; but i'm not selling it, because i'm confident it will rebound. And I bought some at 127 today and will buy more if it falls more.

My broker wouldn't accept my $10 bet, today, that apple would reach 175 again before the end of the year: That would be about a $50 gain, or about 40%. If you believe that kind of recovery is likely, that is something to be excited about.

I think the MSWF news that will have greatest impact on the company's fortunes was the new software for :apple:TV/new rental scheme/announcement that all six major studios are on board. I think in the next couple years those changes will give apple as firm a grip on the movie market as it currently has on music.

These are all merely opinions, of course. None of us can, nor should, pretend to know what can happen with either the world economy or an individual stock.

[Sweetbike40]

To all the people that said "It's just a music player". Obviously from the start it was more than that. I don't think it was ever intended to just be a high-end iPod.

[zoltamatron]

I think the iPod touch is everything that Apple wanted to do with the iPhone, but ATT wouldn't let them. The reason that the software is crippled in an SDK way is because it is based on the iPhone and was designed to be closed because of contract agreements with ATT. Apple probably realized halfway through the development process of the iPhone that the partnership with a wireless company was going to kill it in a lot of ways so they created a different product based on it. Now they can open up software development for it and get a real skype client on it and really change the wireless market. (I hope)

[GregA]

Apple probably realized halfway through the development process of the iPhone that the partnership with a wireless company was going to kill it in a lot of ways so they created a different product based on it. Now they can open up software development for it and get a real skype client on it and really change the wireless market. (I hope)

Ahhh... this is why I read forums. Things I hadn't thought about that make alot of sense :)

The iPod Touch is Apple's "Mainstream WiFi Mobile Platform" because Apple can expand it in any way they want. Not just future hardware (larger screens?, eMate devices?, bluetooth?) but software expansion too (VoIP/iChat, etc). The iPhone, in contrast, is a joint venture (so to speak) and much more restrictive due to the compromises/agreements Apple & AT&T have to make.

No difference now, but that could change. In fact, new enhancements might come to the Touch first, then trickle down to the iPhone once AT&T approves it.

Interesting musings :)

[Alphy]

I think the iPod touch is everything that Apple wanted to do with the iPhone, but ATT wouldn't let them. The reason that the software is crippled in an SDK way is because it is based on the iPhone and was designed to be closed because of contract agreements with ATT. Apple probably realized halfway through the development process of the iPhone that the partnership with a wireless company was going to kill it in a lot of ways so they created a different product based on it. Now they can open up software development for it and get a real skype client on it and really change the wireless market. (I hope)


Finally someone who hit the nail on the head.

[Popeye206]

Lets see 60 x 12 = $720! That is 720 dollars a year base to have the pleasure of owning an iPhone. That is Astronomical on a phone you are suppose to own outright. The question you have to ask yourself is why after buying your phone is Apple still taking cash from you every month.

If that isn't an issue consider that a pay as you go phone might cost you $180 bucks a YEAR! So one buys a Touch and has an outlay for the year that is still less than the iPhone Contract costs for all the devices he owns.

I hate to say this but if you look upon the iPhone contracts as being a good value you have your economics all screwed up. In many ways it is a rip off.

OMG! I guess you dont get it? First, I pay $120+ a month for my iPhone service. Why? because I use the darn thing to call! I won't even talk pre-paid phone... it would cost me 2-3 times more and no internet. Also... my point was, if I want or have to use a smart phone like an iPhone or Blackberry, the iPhone (with AT&T) is actually about $20 a month cheaper than the Blackberry for a similar plan.

I'll be paying the $120+ bucks a month no matter if I have a iPhone, or any other mobile phone. So your point is pointless.

[bloodycape]

Given that apparently iRiver<iAudio in sound quality, and that in my experience iAudio<iPod in sound quality I doubt it. Creative MP3 players do generally sound good though.

Creative has slight gone down hill in this respect(then again so has Apple). But you ask most audiophiles Cowon(iAudio) and iriver have one of the most distinct and best sounding players(sans the few bad players they have made). Then again from what I have seen Toshiba has gotten the best remarks in this category with all their players, and can be bought in store.

[bloodycape]

I think the iPod touch is everything that Apple wanted to do with the iPhone, but ATT wouldn't let them. The reason that the software is crippled in an SDK way is because it is based on the iPhone and was designed to be closed because of contract agreements with ATT. Apple probably realized halfway through the development process of the iPhone that the partnership with a wireless company was going to kill it in a lot of ways so they created a different product based on it. Now they can open up software development for it and get a real skype client on it and really change the wireless market. (I hope)

I would agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that that the itouch in some ways has less features than the iphone. Would it not have been a better idea for the itouch to have bluetooth from the start? So you can use a nice set of bt-phone(and even use it for phone calls once a full version of skype is released). Or add a 3mpx camera so you can take pictures, upload it to flicker or take video do a quick edit so you can upload it to youtube. I still think Apple is crippling the itouch so they can still sell an iphone.

[Stella]

(FWIW, I'm a proponent of opensource requirements for voting systems.)

But what's your point? You're not seriously suggesting that open source OS development that resulted in Unix, which has been going on for decades by the best minds in software is somehow comparable to Joe Crapware, writing some VB virus vector in his bedroom while trying to get a job through Monster?

Again, nothing goes on my machine that isn't from a supported, responsible source (at least as best I can determine) or that I or my company wrote.

*YOU* don't like opensource software, but don't you think thats a bit selfish to want Apple to have control over 3rd party applications?

After all,you are responsible for installing 3rd party applications on to your device. If you don't like certain 3rd party software, don't install it. Don't deprive others.

[eastcoastsurfer]

Or it could simply not be working consistently or require certain firmware to be in place or a thousand other potential reasons. You really think they just sat around in a board room and said "hey! let's remove that feature we've already demoed and replace it with a product we can charge for!"

It could have happened that way, but it comes down to that you don't know. It also--still--has jack all to do with the topic of discussion.


If you don't think that's how it went down, I have a bridge to sell you. If it was a firmware issue, then I would presume it's fixed now that they are selling the TC. So why isn't it released yet? And yes, their other 'lockins' do belong in the discussion because it shows the current mentality of the company.

The only people I can find anymore to defend Apple are on these boards. I have long time friends who are huge Apple supporters and they are all scratching their heads wondering wtf Apple is doing. The guy who got me to switch so long ago is now trying to figure out if he can move to linux b/c he's tired of Apples sheer arrogance. Kinda sad really.

But anyways, I hope you're right. That they will release the SDK and it'll be open for all to write software for and use free of charge.

[-Dark Angel-]

1) Pocket Informant (http://www.pocketinformant.com/products_info.php?p_id=pocketinformant&tab_id=features) - this basically craps all over any PIM on any device, iphone easily included. Full exchange integration, excellent contact grouping, easy color markings for events/contacts, syncable notes, and all sorts of great features that my office needs. And an interface closer to a desktop PIM without being unusable on the mobile platform.

Its a popular choice but I have to say I love Clie Organizer, I've yet to find one that helps mimics paper organizers in digital format.

[GQB]

*YOU* don't like opensource software, but don't you think thats a bit selfish to want Apple to have control over 3rd party applications?

After all,you are responsible for installing 3rd party applications on to your device. If you don't like certain 3rd party software, don't install it. Don't deprive others.

Not exactly...
You want an internet communicable device to be opened up to haphazard development by god-knows-who for god-knows-what reason, essentially turning it into the disease ridden swamp known as Windows.

You are right in that I'm underwhelmed by the 'miracle of openness' that has produced an unusable (and apparently unfixable) email protocol and the viral swamp we have to endure on other systems.

I turn the question around and ask you... why are you so angered by a gatekeeper system that checks that applications observe standards for stability and lack of malware?

[GQB]

The only people I can find anymore to defend Apple are on these boards.

Um, get away from your closed circle then.
Apple is beating the pants off of everyone in customer satisfaction surveys.
My experience is that the only places you see significant Apple bashing is ON these boards, ironically.

[EagerDragon]

I wonder why he did not make that statement about the iPhone also. As they are basically the same device, you would think his comment would also had included the iPhone.

I wonder!!!!!!!

[EagerDragon]

(FWIW, I'm a proponent of opensource requirements for voting systems.)

But what's your point? You're not seriously suggesting that open source OS development that resulted in Unix, which has been going on for decades by the best minds in software is somehow comparable to Joe Crapware, writing some VB virus vector in his bedroom while trying to get a job through Monster?

Again, nothing goes on my machine that isn't from a supported, responsible source (at least as best I can determine) or that I or my company wrote.

Did I misread your post?
Are not suggesting that UNIX was develop by the OpenSource movement?

Hope not, Unix been around a lot longer than OpenSource.

[jouster]

But anyways, I hope you're right. That they will release the SDK and it'll be open for all to write software for and use free of charge.

Maybe. But I have a feeling it won't be and they won't be. We'll see.

[GQB]

Did I misread your post?
Are not suggesting that UNIX was develop by the OpenSource movement?

Hope not, Unix been around a lot longer than OpenSource.

No, but I did mis-type it. :)
good catch.
I was referring to the subsequent branches.

[jayducharme]

I believe they did this with 1.1.2 update. Haven't missed any alarms since I updated to that.

Sadly, no. There is a calendar alarm, but it's "Time Passing," the weakest sound on the Touch. And so far there's no way to change it.

The alarm clock, on the other hand, has a half-dozen different alarm sounds to choose from. If I could use the "Checkmate" sound for my calendar, I'd be a happy puppy.

[B. Hunter]

Um, get away from your closed circle then.
Apple is beating the pants off of everyone in customer satisfaction surveys.
My experience is that the only places you see significant Apple bashing is ON these boards, ironically.

Yep.
Apple does not need to be defended. People bash them because they feel threatened using their inferior products anyway.

I switched almost eight years ago from the misery of Microsoft.
Have not looked back.

[Stella]

I've got a smartphone( Symbian ) thats open ( i.e., free to develop ) and WIFI - is that riddled with viruses? Nope.

Are there crap applications - sure - but I only install the ones I want to: If they are crap quality - then I'll uninstall ASAP.

I think your being too dramatic. Its really not as bad as you are making out. If you only want applications that you think are quality then you have the power only to install these. No other application is going to loaded onto your device magically. You have the power to choose! ;-)

Is OSX loaded with viruses - but yet open to 3rd party development? No to virus and still freely open to 3rd party devs - so there is no reason why the Touch or iPhone should be any different.

To answer your last question: Yes. Why? because it means developers have to get their applications certified ( verified by human ) and that won't be free. That will result in stifling the 3rd party development.

The security model in the OS should protect against dodgy applications. Look at Symbian 9.x security model - it requires applications to be signed ( can be self signed - to satisfy the freeware lot / small developers) - but the level of API an application can access is determined by the certificate signing. In fact, Apple have looked into this type of model.

The 'free market' of the user base will decide which applications succeed or fail. If an app is poor quality / buggy - it will fail.



Not exactly...
You want an internet communicable device to be opened up to haphazard development by god-knows-who for god-knows-what reason, essentially turning it into the disease ridden swamp known as Windows.

You are right in that I'm underwhelmed by the 'miracle of openness' that has produced an unusable (and apparently unfixable) email protocol and the viral swamp we have to endure on other systems.

I turn the question around and ask you... why are you so angered by a gatekeeper system that checks that applications observe standards for stability and lack of malware?

[eastcoastsurfer]

Not exactly...
You want an internet communicable device to be opened up to haphazard development by god-knows-who for god-knows-what reason, essentially turning it into the disease ridden swamp known as Windows.


Apple doesn't verify every piece of software I put on my mac, which happens to be an internet device. Why would they need to do it on any another device?


You are right in that I'm underwhelmed by the 'miracle of openness' that has produced an unusable (and apparently unfixable) email protocol and the viral swamp we have to endure on other systems.


It's already been shown that without open source there would be no OSX today. And the viral swamp you talk about is centered around a closed source OS called Windows. The more eyes you get on code the more likely you are to find bugs. If you truly want secure, bug free code you want it as open as possible.


I turn the question around and ask you... why are you so angered by a gatekeeper system that checks that applications observe standards for stability and lack of malware?

Who sets the standards? Who is going to verify the standards? Will it cost money? What if I want to throw together a utility one weekend and put it on my website to help others? Uh oh, not Apple approved...does that mean I can't even put it on my own device? You want to give Apple the say so on what software you're allowed to put on a device that you paid for and own?

[TedB]

Well breaking away from all of the fighting.... anyone else think due to this new "Mainstream Wi-Fi Mobile Platform", that apple is going to be releasing a bunch of apple made apps along with the SDK at the end of Febuary? After thinking about it, apple really made both the iPhone and the iPod touch very neutral devices in their current basic format. I know a few people that hated when the itunes wi-fi store icon when it was first put on the springboard, because they said they would never use it. By not giving us the advanced options of MMS, iChat and others, they have kept this device very friendly for all users.

Now that the SDK is going to allow options for people, I bet apple will be releasing iChat, video recording, and more soon, since we will now be able to customize the device to our liking.

For apple to say that the touch is going to be the "Mainstream Wi-Fi Mobile Platform", they are going to have to make some major moves to back it all up.

[zoltamatron]

I would agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that that the itouch in some ways has less features than the iphone. Would it not have been a better idea for the itouch to have bluetooth from the start? So you can use a nice set of bt-phone(and even use it for phone calls once a full version of skype is released). Or add a 3mpx camera so you can take pictures, upload it to flicker or take video do a quick edit so you can upload it to youtube. I still think Apple is crippling the itouch so they can still sell an iphone.

Yeah, I'm not sure why they took away all those things from it....perhaps to get ATT off their back? ATT did get an exclusive contract for the iPhone and they may have been upset to see a device come out that was almost the same (sans phone) which anyone could get and not have to pay them for service. I'm hoping that now that the iPhone is actually out and lots of people have it, that Apple will have a little more power in the relationship to do what they want. ATT can't back out now, and even if they did, I'm sure there are plenty of other companies that would take the iPhone into their lineup...

[quigleybc]

I can't see the point of the Touch. Why not buy an iPhone? It saves having to carry a separate phone as well as an iPod.

Or am I missing something? Is there something the Touch can do that the iPhone can't?

because there are people that live in countries with no iPhones.....

like me...

and i won't buy a hacked one...

[darkblu]

ipod touch second-wave adopter here; i have zero interest in yet another ipod, but i have all the interest in the world in a potent mobile platform.

a little background: i've been actively searching for 'the right' mobile (read: pocket) platform since there were mobiles to speak of.

palmos - i was there (the heydays with sony clie and tungsten) - plenty of 3rd party support, but the platform itself was rather poor - the os was notably dated, and this did not miraculously change overnight with palmos5, despite all the supposed beos tech in it.

symbian - again, notable 3rd party support, but the underlying platform felt amateurish (lots of holes in the APIs, major overhauls with each new version, just so things would repeat come next cycle)

windows CE (when it was called that) - the typical ms 1st attempt at anything - 'we don't get **** about the problem, but we'll throw our version at it anyway, and we will persist till it sticks'. zero-to-little consumer interest.

windows mobile (2nd time around) - again, in the ms-trademarked manner, after a myriad of fumbles ms start to get the idea of what they're trying to achieve here, which is that people do not want a desktop crammed on a tiny screen. yet ms still fail to grasp some of the fundamentals in the mobile sector - like the one about power efficiency (ie. work/watt) - WM devices as a rule hold the inefficient crown - it takes extra-powerful hw to satisfy the needs of the os + flagship apps suits (mobile office - really?), and the extra-powerful battery packs in their turn do not alleviate the price tag. result - no such thing as a good affordable/entry level WM device. if it's any good (read: good performance and battery life) it costs an arm and a leg.

various mobile linux platforms - the base suit of apps i.e. usually the bundled ones, are fine, on most of these platforms (e.g. sony mylo) but anything from there is more hacker-ish than a well-devised effort at true 3rd party support. the platforms usually end up as hacker's toys or never outgrow they original limited purpose (most often media players).

sony psp (running homebrew) - the platform that could have been, neutered by grandeur media reign ambitions (for those who don't know, it's sony pictures, not sony computer entertainment, who are in control of the platform) - killer hw, sans the UMD (for which we can thank sony pictures - you guys rock). also lack of touch interface (imagine psp sans UMD, but with touch). 3rd parties only in the form of games, mobile apps most amateurish (homebrew), with the rare gem exceptions (e.g. bookr puts to shame lots of commercial apps). again, no true universal mobile platform future beyond the homebrew community.

ds (mostly running homebrew but also some official apps) - well, it's a kick-ass gaming device, but for a true mobile platform it lacks too much - like a sound os (coding to the metal may be ok for a game console, is not for a common mobile platform), inadequate screen real estate and cpu power (opera ds suffers from that). basically, hardly any chance beyond the hackers/hobbyist crowd.

enter iphone/ipod touch - as with most things apple do, it really shows somebody did put a lot of thought into these devices. and i'd have never suspected that, but osx feels darn freaking right in my palm - the operating system is seamless - all the user sees are slick applications, proper GUIs making use of the multi-touch (where have you been all this time?), and nearly flowless features. best of all, the company behind it is sane - they know what they have on their hands, see the potential and have a perspective on the future, ergo the official SDK support to come soon.

frankly, february cannot come soon enough for me.

[i.maverick]

Then its time to update the sucker. Add a camera. Bump the flashdrive to at least 30gigs.

THEN....and only then will it truly live up to the mainstream mobile wifi platform moniker.

It's great now, don't get me wrong. But it's time to unleash the hounds and make it even BETTER. :-)

mmm...m all for improvements..but consider this...the 64GB option for the Air costs a grand...so a 32GB thingy should be somewhere around $500 rite..so won't that be absurd..??!!

[Sweetbike40]

because there are people that live in countries with no iPhones.....

like me...

and i won't buy a hacked one...



What's the point of the Touch???? Just because there is an iPhone doesn't mean the iPod Touch is useless.

1. iPod has a version that has twice the memory.
2. you don't have to pay a monthly fee for service
3. you don't have to drain your phone while using it as a music player
( i've personally been around people whose iPhone battery died and they couldn't make a call)
4. I'd hate to have a $400 iPhone with me at lets say an amusement park, a club, a concert, etc.... situtions where it would be easy to lose it. I'd rather lose a free phone (whose battery seems to last forever)

[AidenShaw]

mmm...m all for improvements..but consider this...the 64GB option for the Air costs a grand...so a 32GB thingy should be somewhere around $500 rite..so won't that be absurd..??!!

32 GB USB thumb drives are about $200, 16 GB as cheap as about $60, 8GB as cheap as $37. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2013240522+1309429390&name=32GB)

Apple's wholesale price would obviously be less.

The MBA uses a flash PATA disk - the chips are inside a standard form factor PATA disk drive, and connect to the PATA controller on the southbridge. This increases the cost over the Iphone, where the flash chips could be soldered to the board and accessed without a PATA controller.

By the way, 32 GB solid state disks are as cheap as $200 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2013240636+1421430847&name=32GB). The larger disks cost more per GB than the smaller ones, since they need higher density flash chips (more expensive to buy) and/or more of them (more expensive to build).

[bloodycape]

Actually darkblu windows ce is still around and is the basis of all thing windows mobile. Current WM is based of CE5 the next version WM 7 will be CE6 based. So it is not really a second try. Not to mention that CE is the basis and still being used in many popular media players in Korea and Japan. Windows CE never really came on a device with a screen smaller than like 4in(media players don't count as there a few media players running CE that is smaller than 4in screen in size, but generally running a custom interface).

Last I checked newegg was selling 32gb cf cards for like $175usd.

[darkblu]

Actually darkblu windows ce is still around and is the basis of all thing windows mobile.

sorry, apprently i did not make myself clear - i referred to winCE as the timeframe when consumer mobile platforms were openly advertised as featurig 'winCE', there was no such a thing as 'windows mobile' then. but yes, i am aware that WM as a user platform is entirely built on winCE current.

also, by second try i was referring to the whole user experience paradigm - WM is seriously trying to be smart and differentiate across 'more mobile' and 'less mobile' plartforms, and actually succeeding on hitting the target envelope on some occasions. that versus the time when the user mobile experience from ms was the invariable 'a desktop on a poststamp' (i won't be arguing about inches here - if i can cram it in my pocket it's 'mobile' for me) and which btw, is still reigning on WM classic & WM premium.

Not to mention that CE is the basis and still being used in many popular media players in Korea and Japan. Windows CE never really came on a device with a screen smaller than like 4in (media players don't count as there a few media players running CE that is smaller than 4in screen in size, but generally running a custom interface).

well, a media player is not exactly a consumer mobile platform in the sense of the word i used in my post. of course, you can argue that neither are the ds or the psp, but i brought those up more for their wasted potential than anythig else. now, if you consider any of those winCE media players to be showing some true full-fledged mobile platform potential, then please mention so. otherwise they're just appliances.

[bloodycape]

Well how do you define mobile? Many of these devices you can put in your pocket, have wifi and bluetooth. Then again there are one or two device that have full qwerty keyboard, and can fit in a standard size pocket. Either running linux of some sort(qtopia mainly or windows ce).

[darkblu]

Well how do you define mobile? Many of these devices you can put in your pocket, have wifi and bluetooth. Then again there are one or two device that have full qwerty keyboard, and can fit in a standard size pocket. Either running linux of some sort(qtopia mainly or windows ce).

pocket-sized, some sort of network connectivity (does not have to be necessarily wi-fi), open for 3rd party applications.

[bloodycape]

Well then anything from Cowon as most of their devices have DAB/DMB support, and their flagship device has wifi, bluetooth and DAB/DMB. Then there is istation which make devices with WinCE or linux, has dab/dmb, and or wifi. We got Archos which has wifi. Then there is UPOP a 4.8in device that looks like the Tmobile sidekick, runs CE, has wifi, DMB, and up to 60gb of space with SDHC support. I could go on.

[darkblu]

Well then anything from Cowon as most of their devices have DAB/DMB support, and their flagship device has wifi, bluetooth and DAB/DMB. Then there is istation which make devices with WinCE or linux, has dab/dmb, and or wifi. We got Archos which has wifi. Then there is UPOP a 4.8in device that looks like the Tmobile sidekick, runs CE, has wifi, DMB, and up to 60gb of space with SDHC support. I could go on.

sorry, i'm totally unfamiliar with that - does dab/dmb allow applications download of some kind?

[jouster]

Who sets the standards? Apple, presumably. Who is going to verify the standards? Apple, presumably. Will it cost money? No one knows.... What if I want to throw together a utility one weekend and put it on my website to help others? Uh oh, not Apple approved...does that mean I can't even put it on my own device? It might well do. You want to give Apple the say so on what software you're allowed to put on a device that you paid for and own?That is the case with the iPhone and iPod Touch right now. What would be the difference?