Skyhook's Wi-Fi Location Technology for iPhone/iPod touch

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

USAToday profiles (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/2008-01-22-skyhook_N.htm) Skyhook Wireless who helps provide some of the technology behind Apple's new GPS-like location features in the iPhone and iPod Touch's Google Maps application.

Skyhook Wireless was formed in 2003 and uses a database of Wi-Fi hotspots to determine your geographic location. The process is explained: "Every Wi-Fi access point, whether public or private, sends out a signal every second or so, like a lighthouse. We pick up those signals and use our technology to calculate your exact location."
While Wi-Fi hotspots are detected based on these signals, no direct connection is made to them. To seed the system with data, Skyhook sent teams of drives around the US and Canada to map out hotspots. They say the have 70% of North America covered, and are currently adding Europe and Asia. Unlike GPS, Skyhook's system works better indoors and in urban settings.

Of interest, Skyhook generally receives a payment per device sold with the technology, and may be built into the fee Apple is charging for the iPod touch software update. For the iPhone, Apple starts with Skyhook's Wifi database first, and if unable to find a hotspot, it then falls back to using less-precise cellular tower information provided by Google.

A company called Navizon (http://www.navizon.com/) had provided very similar technology for iPhone users as an unofficial 3rd party application.


Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/01/23/skyhooks-wi-fi-location-technology-for-iphone-ipod-touch/)

[Yankees 4 Life]

that's pretty cool, thank goodness i didnt have to pay for my iphone update

[JDOG_]

Poor Navizon. Its entire product has casually been built-in to Google Maps and they're still charging for it.

[happydude]

that's pretty cool, thank goodness i didnt have to pay for my iphone update

well, actually, since apple gets $20/month out of your AT&T plan . . . you are paying for the software update . . .

[pacohaas]

Poor Navizon. Its entire product has casually been built-in to Google Maps and they're still charging for it.yeah and the 3rd-party program "Locate-me" does a better job at cell tower approximation anyway.

What I'm wondering is how exactly they are mapping the WiFi access points. Do they simply go by SSID or do they try to get the MAC address or something a little more identifiable?

example: Hey look, my home WiFi network is called "White House", I must be in Washington DC.

[phiberglass]

They don't go by name, they have all those wifi hotspots pinned everywhere, when you do get maps, it gets wifi/cellular towers around you, retrieves data from the company, then gives you an approximate location of where you are.

[emotion]

Interesting approach.

More info:
http://www.skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/

Coverage:
http://www.skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/coverage.php

[brendanryder]

but i still dont see how this is any help to ipod touch owners?
ok it sweet that they have this technology to use on maps but u have to have a wifi signal first before you can even load the map

[benspratling]

Wi-Fi based locations, are you kidding me?
I live in a college town, where lots of folks have WiFi base stations and lots of folks move around every year. The same day the location feature was released it was out of date. I got my location in my apartment where I've lived for three years with my own WiFi network, and it gave me error bounds of something like 30 or 50 feet to a location that was well over a mile away. Know why? Because it picked a WiFi network that used to be located where it said.
Oh, no, wait, I just bought an Apple Gigabit-Ethernet Airport base station two months ago, I guess I missed the boat. Besides, here the airport signal doesn't make it all the way out to the road, it's not like anyone who comes to visit me will ever really know where they are.

I'm hoping for a Tom Tom plug in GPS module.

On the other hand, this weekend, I was using the locate feature with the cell-phone network and although it gave me error bounds at something like a mile (I don't really know, because, of course, Maps has no scale!) I was easily able to find my location.

I think this WiFi location-based thing is a bad idea, but if they were putting it in the iPhone I guess they had to give iPod Touch users something so they could charge for Maps.

[pacohaas]

but i still dont see how this is any help to ipod touch owners?
ok it sweet that they have this technology to use on maps but u have to have a wifi signal first before you can even load the map

haha, hadn't thought about that :)

[Hls811]

What I don't get is that it seems like you don't need to be connected to the various WiFi networks to get a read on where you are, but yet - it doesn't work like that. I'm in an area with 3 or 4 private access points (I can see them when I go into settings) - but yet it still won't "locate me" on my iPTouch.

"Every Wi-Fi access point, whether public or private, sends out a signal every second or so, like a lighthouse. We pick up those signals and use our technology to calculate your exact location."

[Rocketman]

So does it also capture newly identified wifi devices and report their position? The widespread adoption of mobile wifi devices is likely to confuse this system in the future unless mobile is somehow differentiated from fixed in serial numbers.

Rocketman

[indiekiduk]

yeah and the 3rd-party program "Locate-me" does a better job at cell tower approximation anyway.

What I'm wondering is how exactly they are mapping the WiFi access points. Do they simply go by SSID or do they try to get the MAC address or something a little more identifiable?

example: Hey look, my home WiFi network is called "White House", I must be in Washington DC.

LOL, the locate-me app uses GOOGLE. The exact same as fw 1.1.3 Maps.

[indiekiduk]

So does it also capture newly identified wifi devices and report their position? The widespread adoption of mobile wifi devices is likely to confuse this system in the future unless mobile is somehow differentiated from fixed in serial numbers.

Rocketman

Great point Rocketman. No it doesn't appear to. So although Skyhook might have good WiFi survey coverage right now, that'll change when everyone throws out their 802.11G router and buys an 802.11N, or sells them on ebay and the APs move all over the place. They will need to survey all over again which I think took them a few years. Where as Navizon is updated continually by the users (windows mobile that is) so has no risk of becomming out of date and accuracy improves over time.

[Lepton]

Here in the Long Island 'burbs, the locator can be accurate within 100 feet in one spot, and in another spot 500 feet away, it can be over a mile off. Here at my house it is about a mile and a half off. I wish I could add to the database by telling it the coordinates of WiFi spots I hang out near...

[roland.g]

I agree to how do they keep it current with new hot-spots showing up all the time.

Not sure how this really helps me as I expect that you are only taking advantage of the Skyhook location if you have your WiFi turned on. When I am using my iPhone, I only turn on the WiFi when I want to connect with it. Somehow I don't see myself doing this everytime I want to use Maps.

[b1wils1]

i've found that using cellular signals is more accurate in locating me. i've used several wifi spots, and they haven't been nearly as accurate.

an interesting thing with one of the wifi networks has also happened. i have a friend that when i'm at her place, i use my iphone on the network. she moved about a year ago, and now is several miles from where she used to live. when i used the locator on my iphone now, it still says that i'm in the location that my friend 'used' to live, so obviously skyhook must have driven and logged my friends wifi when she lived in her old place, placing that at probably a year ago.

it seems like this is a very inaccurate way to do this. does anyone else agree?
it just seems as if this will be dated VERY quickly.

[jfinke]

I would think that such a database would be out of date within 6 months. Cell phone towers don't move. People's wifi hotspots do. People move, turn them off, replace equipment, etc. They are basically attempting to do landmark recognition (go north of the tree with a crooked trunk) with moving landmarks.

[maverick808]

I agree to how do they keep it current with new hot-spots showing up all the time.

Not sure how this really helps me as I expect that you are only taking advantage of the Skyhook location if you have your WiFi turned on. When I am using my iPhone, I only turn on the WiFi when I want to connect with it. Somehow I don't see myself doing this everytime I want to use Maps.

Do you manually set wifi to off in settings? I don't see the point of doing this as it doesn't save that much battery life. Wifi will automatically turn off when you aren't interacting with the phone anyway.

[roland.g]

And Apple stock drops another $19.00

[robalan]

Hmmm, so this explains why my iPod Touch was able to locate me at home to within about 100 feet, despite the only Wi-Fi access point in range being my own Airport Extreme? I didn't expect it to work at all but instead it homed right in.

[MacNewbie03]

You can go to http://www.skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/coverage.php to see if your area is in Skyhook's database. I would guess that the reason your location may be off is skyhook's database isn't real time

[pacohaas]

LOL, the locate-me app uses GOOGLE. The exact same as fw 1.1.3 Maps.

Which explains why it works better than Navizon, which is what I was saying.

[happydude]

i've found that using cellular signals is more accurate in locating me. i've used several wifi spots, and they haven't been nearly as accurate.

an interesting thing with one of the wifi networks has also happened. i have a friend that when i'm at her place, i use my iphone on the network. she moved about a year ago, and now is several miles from where she used to live. when i used the locator on my iphone now, it still says that i'm in the location that my friend 'used' to live, so obviously skyhook must have driven and logged my friends wifi when she lived in her old place, placing that at probably a year ago.

it seems like this is a very inaccurate way to do this. does anyone else agree?
it just seems as if this will be dated VERY quickly.

given your example, it already is dated. this seems like something apple would have caught on to before implementing it. i don't know if this is why they did it, but i'm afraid they're starting to cram in applications just to say they have it vs. testing it out 100% to make sure it is worth having. obviously, as many people have been writing, the locate me already has issues and it will just grow worse every day unless skyhook routinely does updates. and if it took them a couple years to get 70% of the nation mapped, how long is it going to be before the next update? i'm disappointed in apple over this one, they should have known this would be an issue. hoepfully the SDK release will give garmin or tomtom or some "real" GPS company an opportunity to fill this hole left by apple!

[laughingboy]

I would think that such a database would be out of date within 6 months. Cell phone towers don't move. People's wifi hotspots do. People move, turn them off, replace equipment, etc. They are basically attempting to do landmark recognition (go north of the tree with a crooked trunk) with moving landmarks.

I believe that one of the features of this service is database updates from results of location queries. I'm guessing that this is part of their model - once they have a decent starting point, users will keep the data fresh merely by using the service.

From Skyhook's website

Skyhook maintains the accuracy of the access point reference database through an ongoing and continuous data monitoring, analysis and collection process. The two main main components are:

1. Automated Self-Healing Network
Each WPS location transaction is initiated with a scan for nearby access points. The resulting access point information is then compared against the central reference network. Known access points (those already in the reference network) are used to calculate the location of the device.

Any access point that is either not in the database or was previously associated with a different geographic location is automatically identified and recorded to the new corresponding calculated location. In this manner, WPS automatically fixes and expands the reference network as it is being used.

[lazyrighteye]

Great point Rocketman. No it doesn't appear to. So although Skyhook might have good WiFi survey coverage right now, that'll change when everyone throws out their 802.11G router and buys an 802.11N, or sells them on ebay and the APs move all over the place. They will need to survey all over again which I think took them a few years. Where as Navizon is updated continually by the users (windows mobile that is) so has no risk of becomming out of date and accuracy improves over time.

That's really interesting.
What's the point of manually mapping all of these ever changing hot spots?
Would seem Navizon has a good thing going.

Regardless, like many, I eagerly await the launch of Apple's SDK.
I have a feeling were weeks away from not talking about Locate Me or many of the seemingly stop-gap features Apple's been trickling out.

Good fun.

[jonathansmith68]

So at first I thought that the "locate me" feature (I'm talking iPod Touch ONLY) would only work when in range of a Skyhook managed access point, but after reading these comments I'm starting to think of the possibility of like some you said "keeping records" of privately ran access points. Is this true? or does it HAVE to be an actual Skyhook AP.

If it does in fact have a database where it will add private access points, I could see this being buggy with people often moving and with mac address spoofing and so on.

Also, if this is true, that it does collect data and throws it all in a database, how do the entries get their in the first place? Do you manually submit data like "Where is the location of the access point?" and it sets that location in it's database? A little clarification (if anyone knows!) would be greatly appreciated!

Lastly, if the last few statements are in fact true, anyone know if there'd be some kind of user agreement you'd have to agree to in order to keep the privacy of those who don't want to be added to this system?





Edit: After actually READING the "howitworks" page, most of my questions were answered, but I'm still unlcear about how new ones are added. Do people have to agree to this? Or is there some software you have to run to register your Access Point?

[Trooperof3]

Maybe it's just me, But the Wi-Fi locator worked like twice... other then that it's been completely useless and tells me in can't locate me even if i'm on a wi-fi network

[happydude]

with people having problems reading access points from people known to have moved and sending your location read miles from where you actually are, i have a question for people living in cities with municipally owned wifi networks. for example, the city of Chaska, MN has wifi spread out throughout the city. is the locate me feature in a city such as Chaska just ridiculously accurate?

[samh004]

It's too bad someone beat me to the punch to drive around Hong Kong and map the networks, then again I'm glad they have as the technology works :)

[kornyboy]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A93 Safari/419.3)

I have found it interesting and useful to an extent. When I'm at home it is not so good but around areas where there are businesses it works pretty well. I think it is ok but obviously not as good as GPS.

[tothelimit]

Edit: After actually READING the "howitworks" page, most of my questions were answered, but I'm still unlcear about how new ones are added. Do people have to agree to this? Or is there some software you have to run to register your Access Point?

I don't think new wireless access points would have any effect on this system at all, until skyhook decides to do an update and rescan an area.
The original post states, "While Wi-Fi hotspots are detected based on these signals, no direct connection is made to them." There is no registering, no one connects to your (or anyone else's) access point. They have simply scanned for these signals emitted by routers and such - and have developed a self updating system to map them.

[interconnect]

I don't think new wireless access points would have any effect on this system at all, until skyhook decides to do an update and rescan an area.
The original post states, "While Wi-Fi hotspots are detected based on these signals, no direct connection is made to them." There is no registering, no one connects to your (or anyone else's) access point. They have simply scanned for these signals emitted by routers and such - and have developed a self updating system to map them.
the answer to this was already posted earlier...

Skyhook maintains the accuracy of the access point reference database through an ongoing and continuous data monitoring, analysis and collection process. The two main main components are:

1. Automated Self-Healing Network
Each WPS location transaction is initiated with a scan for nearby access points. The resulting access point information is then compared against the central reference network. Known access points (those already in the reference network) are used to calculate the location of the device.

Any access point that is either not in the database or was previously associated with a different geographic location is automatically identified and recorded to the new corresponding calculated location. In this manner, WPS automatically fixes and expands the reference network as it is being used.

[jonathansmith68]

I don't think new wireless access points would have any effect on this system at all, until skyhook decides to do an update and rescan an area.
The original post states, "While Wi-Fi hotspots are detected based on these signals, no direct connection is made to them." There is no registering, no one connects to your (or anyone else's) access point. They have simply scanned for these signals emitted by routers and such - and have developed a self updating system to map them.


ahhh, I think I'm starting to understand it a little more! So the fact that no communication is done with the actual access point (protected access points being an excellent example) it has to be rescanned, as you said. So this doesn't sound very "self-healing" at all to me if they (Skyhook) have to manually go back and re-scan the area. And if a user makes a tiny change such as changing the channel it transmits on, I'm guessing this change would make this access point no longer a match?

Lastly, for iPod touch owners, this seems to be not very practical since you'd need at least ONE connection to the internet (an open, non-protected access point) just to access Skyhook's databases, am I correct in thinking this?




Edit: This sounds a little bit more appealing. I hope this is the case. Though this still sucks that you have to be in access of at least ONE open network (for iPod Touch owners), I'm assuming.

the answer to this was already posted earlier...

Skyhook maintains the accuracy of the access point reference database through an ongoing and continuous data monitoring, analysis and collection process. The two main main components are:

1. Automated Self-Healing Network
Each WPS location transaction is initiated with a scan for nearby access points. The resulting access point information is then compared against the central reference network. Known access points (those already in the reference network) are used to calculate the location of the device.

Any access point that is either not in the database or was previously associated with a different geographic location is automatically identified and recorded to the new corresponding calculated location. In this manner, WPS automatically fixes and expands the reference network as it is being used.

[notjustjay]

I have a few, varied, thoughts on this. First off, if the $20 upgrade fee includes royalties to Skyhook, then I'd feel a bit better about paying -- why didn't you just say so, Steve?

This is a really ingenious system, but as others have said it will only really work well if the database is kept up to date. Self-healing sounds like an interesting feature, but would only work to an extent, and would lead to accuracy degradation over time. (I used to be at exactly point A, but now all I know is that I'm near points B and C). The model would work better if there was some kind of grassroots movement to get people to submit location updates themselves.

Cataloging seems pretty self-evident. A Skyhook vehicle equipped with a GPS just drives around running a program like MacStumbler. At coordinates (x,y) I receive these wireless signals with these signal strengths. Build up enough points and you're in business.

(Still, it seems kinda creepy that someone out there was driving around my neighborhood and cataloging my wireless network against my location! Here's hoping the Skyhook vehicle wasn't a plain white van...)

[tothelimit]

the answer to this was already posted earlier...

oh - i missed that! thank you!

[eliotw]

Pretty amazing that it's working with the NTT WiFi network in Tokyo...more coverage than their website map claims.
:)

[ParisParamus]

This is a really ingenious system, but as others have said it will only really work well if the database is kept up to date. Self-healing sounds like an interesting feature, but would only work to an extent, and would lead to accuracy degradation over time.

Not really sure how quickly there would be a degradation: its possible that most wifi routers aren't moved that quickly, or often, and in an urban area, there are so many signals at most locations that the net effect of one signal moving and/or varying in strength is minimal over a considerable span of time.

On the other hand, what I don't get is what about where there are are no routers, say in less populated parts of cities and/or poorer parts of towns and/or in the suburbs, where wifi won't even reach to the street (across the big yard). At that point, how do things work? And on bigger roads? Can someone explain this?

[altoption]

Theoretically, they should be able to reconfirm location of any mapped wifi hotspot the same way they locate individual phones, by comparing the hotspot to other known hotspots. With regular and frequent system checks of previously-mapped hotspots, they should be able to keep their system up-to-date. Not sure how they add new hotspots without driving around again, though.

[ndheah]

Well considering when I used it last night, said I was about 150 miles away from where I really was made me wonder how accurate this system really is.

[Lord Sam]

But this is not at all perfect, especially in England, even in London. I have never been able to get my location from my ipod touch unless I am connected to a WiFi HotSpot, and so I hope the UK coverage gets here soon. That aside, it's sort of a useless feature, unless you're stranded in Antarctica, or lost at sea, and in that case, I don't think you'll be able to pick up any signals from WiFi connections. Ah well. No-ones perfect. But Apple sure comes darn close.

[twoodcc]

pretty cool technology. yeah, this probably has something to do with the iPod Touch fee

[alFR]

On the other hand, what I don't get is what about where there are are no routers, say in less populated parts of cities and/or poorer parts of towns and/or in the suburbs, where wifi won't even reach to the street (across the big yard). At that point, how do things work? And on bigger roads? Can someone explain this?

At that point it will fall back on cell tower triangulation, as I believe it says in the article on the front page.

[Booga]

My home wireless routers were in their database. And because my old home was closer to the street, the database was never updated with the new location (300 miles away). So I wrote them a little note with my wireless routers MACs and my lat/lon, and they updated it. It's a pretty nifty little service.

[dernhelm]

I believe that one of the features of this service is database updates from results of location queries. I'm guessing that this is part of their model - once they have a decent starting point, users will keep the data fresh merely by using the service.

From Skyhook's website

Skyhook maintains the accuracy of the access point reference database through an ongoing and continuous data monitoring, analysis and collection process. The two main main components are:

1. Automated Self-Healing Network
Each WPS location transaction is initiated with a scan for nearby access points. The resulting access point information is then compared against the central reference network. Known access points (those already in the reference network) are used to calculate the location of the device.

Any access point that is either not in the database or was previously associated with a different geographic location is automatically identified and recorded to the new corresponding calculated location. In this manner, WPS automatically fixes and expands the reference network as it is being used.

Maybe so, but it doesn't work very well if that is the case. A buddy of mine used the feature and he was located to his house that he moved out of almost 1.5 years ago. That was apparently the last time SkyTel found his router.

He mailed their tech support, and they manually are correcting their database, but even then it is likely to take a couple of weeks (their estimate). I'm not sure why they don't have a web page where you can submit updates to their DB - seems like it could be useful - but they don't right now. All requests for changes are phone calls and tracking people down.

[Nermal]

So I wrote them a little note with my wireless routers MACs and my lat/lon, and they updated it. It's a pretty nifty little service.

Wouldn't it make more sense for them to put a form on their site where you can submit your APs without manually writing an email? :confused:

[rtdunham]

...the locate me already has issues and it will just grow worse every day unless skyhook routinely does updates....

from Skyhook's website, cited earlier in this thread, in a section on location maintenance:

"Any access point that is either not in the database or was previously associated with a different geographic location is automatically identified and recorded to the new corresponding calculated location. In this manner, WPS automatically fixes and expands the reference network as it is being used.

2. Periodic Rescan
Depending on the aging of the survey data and the density of user-generated updates, Skyhook periodically will rescan entire coverage areas to recalibrate the reference network ensuring performance consistency over time."

[pacohaas]

Theoretically, they should be able to reconfirm location of any mapped wifi hotspot the same way they locate individual phones, by comparing the hotspot to other known hotspots. With regular and frequent system checks of previously-mapped hotspots, they should be able to keep their system up-to-date. Not sure how they add new hotspots without driving around again, though.

Yeah, I'd imagine when you use the "locate me" feature, a quick snip of the WiFi signals in your area and their strengths is sent to the server, not only to find your location, but also to add missing or modified AP's to their database. With the cell tower data for iPhone users, the location can be further verified.

[NerfYoda]

My home wireless routers were in their database. And because my old home was closer to the street, the database was never updated with the new location (300 miles away). So I wrote them a little note with my wireless routers MACs and my lat/lon, and they updated it. It's a pretty nifty little service.

That's how I did it too. All they keep in their database is lat/lon and the MAC of your access point. I've noticed some flaws in the access points I hang out at, aiso I've been emailing them corrections as I get them.

To get your latitude and longitude head to google maps and put in the address of your access point. After that put the following in your address bar to get your coordinates:

javascript:void(prompt('',gApplication.getMap().getCenter()));

Put in the coordintes back into a google maps search to make sure it's right. I usually have to tweak it a little to get it spot on.

[Lord Sam]

Even after my recent post, I have to agree it is pretty awesome.:)

[camel jockey]

The system is about half a mile off my home address. It is better on the road.

[ParisParamus]

At that point it will fall back on cell tower triangulation, as I believe it says in the article on the front page.

Wait. How does a phone-less iPod Touch make use of cell phone tower telemetry?

[pacohaas]

Wait. How does a phone-less iPod Touch make use of cell phone tower telemetry?

It obviously can't, that post must be referring to iPhone functionality since this thread is about both the touch and the iPhone.

[bmclemons]

As I recall this technology was much more precise on the old cel phones than Google's current technology on the iPhone. I tend to wonder why this is and if so then why Apple didn't incorporate it into the iPhone. I've noticed the maps aren't too accurate and don't trinagulate that well.

[helo]

The location in London, UK is awesome for the most part...driving into london from my house I was able to get locations of roughly 30m diameter circle whenever I updated. Fantastic stuff. There's a lot of micro-cells there too (I have an iPhone) but there must be a fair bit of wifi involved to get the location as narrow as 30m circles!

[lorductape]

70% of US covered

obviously not any of the places i've been since updating.

[bigmc6000]

So - is it possible to register your home Wi-Fi with them? I looked all over their site and I couldn't find anything. I'd like to register my location 1) so when I click it at home it'll zoom really far in and that'd be cool and 2) for any other iPhone users driving by to get a good reading. Right now the reading at my house is about half a mile off.

If somebody could provide a link that'd be great! Thanks

[rtdunham]

...All they keep in their database is lat/lon and the MAC of your access point....I've been emailing them corrections as I get them.

To get your latitude and longitude head to google maps and put in the address of your access point. After that put the following in your address bar to get your coordinates:

javascript:void(prompt('',gApplication.getMap().getCenter()));

Put in the coordintes back into a google maps search to make sure it's right. I usually have to tweak it a little to get it spot on.

Could you be more specific?
1) How do i find the MAC address for my router? I've googled the issue and the solutions i find are little applets that run in windows. How do I do it with a macbook, linksys xrs400 wireless router, and an airport express?
2) Describe again how to get coordinates, please. I found my location on google maps but can't convert to coordinates. Can you be more specific about where to put the line of code you describe?

thanks: Locate Me has worked well in some places but it locates my home one county, three cities, and six or seven miles away. From what i've read here, it sounds like one of my routers must have been there when Skyhook mapped it, though I have no idea how that could have happened. Or maybe my phone's finding a neighbor's signal rather than my own, even in my home. (?) In any case, i'd like to try a fix. Thanks.

[aswitcher]

Whats the best way to get them my and other Mac addresses linked to lat/long?

[NerfYoda]

Could you be more specific?
1) How do i find the MAC address for my router? I've googled the issue and the solutions i find are little applets that run in windows. How do I do it with a macbook, linksys xrs400 wireless router, and an airport express?

I use KisMAC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KisMAC) though tools like iStumbler would work just as well. These kinds of apps list the wireless networks in range of your wireless card and display details about them. MAC address is one of those details. Your router's control panel should also have it's MAC address displayed somewhere. In the case of my AirPort Extreme base station the AirPort Utility shows the MAC address along with my SSID on it's main screen.

2) Describe again how to get coordinates, please. I found my location on google maps but can't convert to coordinates. Can you be more specific about where to put the line of code you describe?

I should have been more specific. :) After googling your address enter javascript:void(prompt('',gApplication.getMap().getCenter())); in your browser's address bar (where you usually enter web page URL's) and hit enter. That'll open a javascript popup with a text field containing your latitude and longitude coordinates. To make sure that's correct run a google maps search for those coordinates without the parenthesis. I usually have to tweak the coordinates a little to get them spot on. YMMV

[notjustjay]

Your router's control panel should also have it's MAC address displayed somewhere.

My answer was going to be, pick up the router and read the little label on the bottom.

No?

[rtdunham]

whoops

[NerfYoda]

My answer was going to be, pick up the router and read the little label on the bottom.

No?

Hah. That never occurred to me. :) Yeah do that instead, hehe.

[dagamer34]

Technology like this is better used in areas with shops and non-moving WiFi access points than using everything under the sun.

Because of this, it's much better to use Google's triangulation first, then access Skyhook's system for a better location and throw out APs that say they are 300 miles away. Reupload that data saying the AP doesn't exist where you are anymore and the database should improve itself over time.

[rtdunham]

...I wrote them a little note with my wireless routers MACs and my lat/lon, and they updated it...

did you email to the general support address?

how do you know they updated it--did they respond to your email? or did your Locate Me function simply start working properly? Or...?

And how quickly did this happen? (the new software was released last week, right? and another poster in this thread said his friend had notified skyhook of a change, and was told it'd take several weeks to be done; i guess i'm surprised they consummated a fix for you so quickly)

[chr1s60]

In my area in northern California it works pretty good. When I am at home it gets me within about 50 feet and throughout my area it has been within a 1/2 mile or so every time I have checked, usually closer than 1/2 a mile, but sometimes it is a little off. It's not GPS, but for free on my iPhone I'm not gonna complain.

[MattInOz]

I have a few, varied, thoughts on this. First off, if the $20 upgrade fee includes royalties to Skyhook, then I'd feel a bit better about paying -- why didn't you just say so, Steve?

This is a really ingenious system, but as others have said it will only really work well if the database is kept up to date. Self-healing sounds like an interesting feature, but would only work to an extent, and would lead to accuracy degradation over time. (I used to be at exactly point A, but now all I know is that I'm near points B and C). The model would work better if there was some kind of grassroots movement to get people to submit location updates themselves.

Cataloging seems pretty self-evident. A Skyhook vehicle equipped with a GPS just drives around running a program like MacStumbler. At coordinates (x,y) I receive these wireless signals with these signal strengths. Build up enough points and you're in business.

(Still, it seems kinda creepy that someone out there was driving around my neighborhood and cataloging my wireless network against my location! Here's hoping the Skyhook vehicle wasn't a plain white van...)


You want Steve to list all the third parties who receive part of payments you make. That one $20 payment, google, skyhooks to start, mail app might have a couple to say postfix or cyrus teams say. Stocks and Weather widget carry small Yahoo logos so they are getting some cash.
Could be fun but it would add a couple of pages to an iMac sales docket.

[a1016neo]

How accurate is skyhook compared to google's offer. (I know that the iphone has both but what about the touch?)

[chabig]

So does it also capture newly identified wifi devices and report their position?

Yes it does. See http://skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/coverage.php

"Any access point that is either not in the database or was previously associated with a different geographic location is automatically identified and recorded to the new corresponding calculated location. In this manner, WPS automatically fixes and expands the reference network as it is being used."

[notjustjay]

You want Steve to list all the third parties who receive part of payments you make. That one $20 payment, google, skyhooks to start, mail app might have a couple to say postfix or cyrus teams say. Stocks and Weather widget carry small Yahoo logos so they are getting some cash.
Could be fun but it would add a couple of pages to an iMac sales docket.

Well, I don't think he needs to say EVERYTHING, but you saw the uproar that the forums were thrown into the moment Steve announced that the Touch upgrade would cost $20. Apple isn't stupid, either, they knew full well that we'd be upset (and vocal).

Steve could have thrown an extra line into his keynote, like "And this will be available for just $20. Part of that cost includes the licensing fee for the fantastic Skyhook wireless location system. We're really excited, we think customers will really enjoy using this..."

[hoobershnooger]

I only wish it worked a little better over here in Honolulu.
It hasn't worked for me, barely.
Only when I'm directly connected to a network.

[CP1091]

I can't wait to try this one out eventually.

[minik]

It never worked on my iPod touch even in the Seattle downtown area.

[rtdunham]

(HOW TO FIND COORDINATES?)
I should have been more specific. :) After googling your address enter javascript:void(prompt('',gApplication.getMap().getCenter())); in your browser's address bar (where you usually enter web page URL's) and hit enter. That'll open a javascript popup with a text field containing your latitude and longitude coordinates. To make sure that's correct run a google maps search for those coordinates without the parenthesis. I usually have to tweak the coordinates a little to get them spot on. YMMV

i got that to work. But here's an easier way: use Google Earth. I moved the cursor over my house and captured lat and long. (they matched almost precisely with the results of your method, which pinned a location several doors down the street).

[futureswitcher]

wow, that's a great feature!

now, I'm off to convince my dad that getting an iPhone would really help him stay organized...that is, so i can play with it;)

[Analog Kid]

It certainly looks like Apple didn't test this much outside their own environment. I'm sure their campus is well covered, and Skynet has a map of San Francisco hotspots. I'm sure it worked great in testing...
I believe that one of the features of this service is database updates from results of location queries. I'm guessing that this is part of their model - once they have a decent starting point, users will keep the data fresh merely by using the service.

That'll only work to the extent that there is overlap among access points-- urban environments. Get out to the 'burbs where houses are a bowshot apart and you'll never be able to reference one signal to another-- and if you could you'd only have two at best and not know which one is right.
with people having problems reading access points from people known to have moved and sending your location read miles from where you actually are, i have a question for people living in cities with municipally owned wifi networks. for example, the city of Chaska, MN has wifi spread out throughout the city. is the locate me feature in a city such as Chaska just ridiculously accurate?
Ridiculous in the sense of "how can you even apply the word accuracy to that?" Yeah, about. The term "exact location" is rather absurd. WiFi positioning can get you about 25-50m accuracy on a really, really good day.
Wouldn't it make more sense for them to put a form on their site where you can submit your APs without manually writing an email? :confused:
Ok, who's with me on this?: Let's pick a small community in like Connecticut and magically relocate it to Area 51.

[wcalderini]

Skyhook?
Skyhook?
Sounds WAY to much like Skynet.
I fear the machines.

[Analog Kid]

Do you think they outfitted their van with pontoons to detect the access points off the California coast?

[realgenius]

That'll only work to the extent that there is overlap among access points-- urban environments. Get out to the 'burbs where houses are a bowshot apart and you'll never be able to reference one signal to another-- and if you could you'd only have two at best and not know which one is right.

I get plenty of overlap in the 'burbs. There's a lot fewer walls and concentrated radio sources so signals I think will go pretty far. Depending where I am in my burbs house, I get 6-9 other hotspots.

At my sister's burb house I once got 11. Although the problem is that she lives in a new neighborhood and the couple down the street moved from San Jose. So when I did "locate me", it said I was in San Jose, not 1700 miles away in Austin, Texas where I actually was located.

They totally need an "update location" button so you can drop a pin in your real spot (which is usually easy to identify once you get close enough by using the satellite photos). Then you could sent them all of the updated wifi in the area to update their DB.

[MikeTheC]

Quick question for the crowd here:

Do we really want to make it that easy for us to be tracked? I'm thinking this looks more like one step closer to big-brother myself, and is yet another reason why I'm glad I don't own either an iPhone or iPod Touch.

[Analog Kid]

Quick question for the crowd here:

Do we really want to make it that easy for us to be tracked? I'm thinking this looks more like one step closer to big-brother myself, and is yet another reason why I'm glad I don't own either an iPhone or iPod Touch.
While I'd ordinarily agree with those sentiments, what I'm seeing here is that they're making it darn near impossible to track you... ;)

[darkblu]

While I'd ordinarily agree with those sentiments, what I'm seeing here is that they're making it darn near impossible to track you... ;)

anecdotal, but my experience with the tech has been very positive. the two times i tried it it located me within 10-15 meters (30-45 feet), which is possibly better than what you'd get on the average from mobile-cell-based in my city, judging by the lousy gsm coverage here.

[sectime]

Quick question for the crowd here:

Do we really want to make it that easy for us to be tracked? I'm thinking this looks more like one step closer to big-brother myself, and is yet another reason why I'm glad I don't own either an iPhone or iPod Touch.
Bettter wrap your cell phone in tin foil. Don't be in range of any camera. Wow

[leakyfirewall]

tried ipod touch with clearwire modem and wifi access point in moving car and the google map tracks where you are just like gps tracking....

there's no way any database would know about my traveling wifi access point, it's i.p. address doesn't change as we move around and the internet just keeps working as you move around....

does the ipod have the ability to see cell towers? or does it simply have a gps in it?

perplexed

[chabig]

Your Clearwire modem is just a data connection to the iPod. The iPod figures out its location by sensing nearby wifi access points.

[rtdunham]

... she lives in a new neighborhood and the couple down the street moved from San Jose. So when I did "locate me", it said I was in San Jose, not 1700 miles away in Austin, Texas where I actually was located.
They need an "update location" button so you can drop a pin in your real spot (which is usually easy to identify once you get close enough by using the satellite photos). Then you could send them all of the updated wifi in the area to update their DB.

funny problem. my phone-tower-location routinely put me one county, one river, three cities and about five miles west of my actual location. I sniffed all the routers around me and sent the MAC addresses to Skyhook, but months later it still mis-locates me to the same spot. I thought my neighbor's router might have been in service at one time at that spot but he assures me it's been next door to my house since it came out of the box.

Your suggestion for a fix is a good one. (Of course now my GPS locates me accurately--unless i'm indoors, in which case the phone-tower-locator whisks me away again).

[leakyfirewall]

we tried the highway, my access point would have been the only one around, as there are no buildings/ businesses etc around on the highway, and it tracked perfectly just like a gps....