The internet war on Scientology.....

[Airforce]

I usually visit Digg during my downtimes on the job and have recently seen a bunch of stuff popping up about this Scientology stuff. Your thoughts? Have you heard about the ongoing happenings?

Some "interesting" reads.....

http://digg.com/odd_stuff/ANON_release_Scientology_secret_DOX

Video explaining "the war" :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCbKv9yiLiQ

[Ugg]

The clip is a little weird.

I hope that whoever put it on you tube either has deep pockets or was extremely careful in posting it. $cientology has deep pockets and spares nothing in suppressing those who dare to disagree.

It's a creepy cult set up to milk its followers of a maximum amount of money. The sooner the US stops pandering to religious extremists the better.

[MikeTheC]

Ugg:

More-or-less I'll agree with most of what you said. However, I think you are off on one point.

It's not that the U.S. Government needs to stop pandering to religious extremists (which is not to say religious extremism is a good thing, in fact it's quite the opposite), but the U.S. Government needs to stop pandering to cults and giving them the same status and legitimacy as an actual religion.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing Scientology being run to ground, and it's leaders and infrastructure people arrested and tried on criminal charges. You never know, stranger things have happened before.

[solvs]

Jerry O'Connell's take:

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/3f716ffebe

Guessing he won't be in anymore Cruise movies.

[Luis]

We are anonymous.
We are Legion.
We do not forgive.
We do not forget.

That's their "motto" or declaration of war or whatever.

[skunk]

the U.S. Government needs to stop pandering to cults and giving them the same status and legitimacy as an actual religion.But can you define the difference? Isn't it simply a question of size?

[NAG]

Such as come up with a convincing differentiation between scientologists and say, mormons.

Just because one has been around longer than the other doesn't mean it automatically should be more legitimate than the other.

[psychofreak]

But can you define the difference? Isn't it simply a question of size?

The second Dictionary.app definition:
a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister

So yeah, size is basically the difference.

[yg17]

Get rid of the mention of size in the definition, and cult and religion are synonymous.

[Brianstorm91]

It's just an internet war?

[obeygiant]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCbKv9yiLiQ

I thought that video is pretty wicked, in a good way. The computer voice and the clouds going by. Make the hairs on the back of neck stand up. Well done from an aesthetic view point.

On the other hand, if you think about it, this is similar to terrorism is it not? Although I've never considered Scientology something of value, they have a right to exist just like every other cult following or religion. In 200 years, who knows, there may be a billion followers. People didn't much like Christianity when it first came about did they?

[MikeTheC]

The second Dictionary.app definition:

a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister

So yeah, size is basically the difference.

I think you missed something there. Note the qualification at the end. That's how I would define the difference.

Atheism, though I completely oppose it, is not a cult in my view. Misguided and eventually leading it's members to damnation, but not "strange or sinister".

Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, Islam, etc., none of which I would regard as "strange or sinister". (This, of course, excludes the group presently described as "radical Islam", which I do regard as a cult.

Judaism - Followers believe in God, but not in Jesus, and are still looking for their Messiah. Misguided a bit, perhaps, a bit too orthodox in certain respects for even common sense, but I respect them and their devotion to God. Even though their distant ancestors persecuted my distant ancestors, I hold the current generation no malice and don't regard them as a cult.

Catholicism - Has had some fairly destructive tendencies over the centuries, and arguably is one of the major sources of people "turning atheist", but even all of that notwithstanding I still don't view them as a cult.

Branch Dividians, Scientologists (naturally), KKK, and others - definitely cults, the whole lot of them.

And actually, if you want to try and argue that "it's all about size" (and do try and keep your pathetic little minds out of the gutter for a second! :p ) Scientology is fairly huge, is extremely well-heeled, and has members across the planet. Clearly it's too large to be defined as a "cult" based on lack of size. But it's still a cult, none-the-less.

I thought that video is pretty wicked, in a good way. The computer voice and the clouds going by. Make the hairs on the back of neck stand up. Well done from an aesthetic view point.

On the other hand, if you think about it, this is similar to terrorism is it not? Although I've never considered Scientology something of value, they have a right to exist just like every other cult following or religion. In 200 years, who knows, there may be a billion followers. People didn't much like Christianity when it first came about did they?

Christianity is not about the domination of people, nor about the tyrannizing of it's members, nor anyone else. Christianity does not try and hurt or harm anyone. Arguably, neither did Judaism before it. Christianity is not about trying to suck every last dime out of every single last of it's parishioners, nor giving them brain-washing "audits", nor denying them the benefit of psychologists and psychiatrists (regardless of their own personal religious background) nor anything else.

Have there been whack-jobs in it's midst over the years? Have there been crackpots? Sure. So what? There's been crackpots and nutjobs and all sorts of things in the midst of Star Trek fandom, the computer world, and on and on. It's hardly logical to come to the conclusion that society is all bad because any one of it's members is a deviant. Use your head and think. Analyze. Use your critical thinking skills. C'mon, I know you can.

[themadchemist]

Live and let live. I don't like this idea of sorting the religions from the cults--who is doing the sorting? The thing to do is to crack down legally on any religion or cult that violates the law egregiously (in some way that really exceeds the tolerable level of religious practice) and keep free speech free so that those who feel the need to call out whatever legal practices they find offensive can do so.

The answer to most questions of discussion and difference of opinion is more speech, not less.

[Nugget]

Catholicism - Has had some fairly destructive tendencies over the centuries, and arguably is one of the major sources of people "turning atheist"...
Every single person that has ever lived is born atheist. They are "turned" religious as a byproduct of their culture and upbringing. We all start out atheist.

[Badandy]

...the U.S. Government needs to stop pandering to cults and giving them the same status and legitimacy as an actual religion.
.

Actual religion? I find the backstory of Scientology not only more interesting than Christianity (c'mon, Xenu? That's awesome.), but almost as factually accurate.

[skunk]

Actual religion? I find the backstory of Scientology not only more interesting than Christianity (c'mon, Xenu? That's awesome.), but almost as factually accurate.The backstory of Scientology was designed specifically to mimic that of accepted religions. There's nothing so wacky as mainstream religion.

[Brianstorm91]

People didn't much like Christianity when it first came about did they?
Love thy neighbour, Jesus said.

[Blue Velvet]

Atheism, though I completely oppose it, is not a cult in my view. Misguided and eventually leading it's members to damnation, but not "strange or sinister".

...

Analyze. Use your critical thinking skills. C'mon, I know you can.



See the inherent contradiction? To pass atheists off as misguided is utterly laughable.


Christianity is not about the domination of people, nor about the tyrannizing of it's members, nor anyone else. Christianity does not try and hurt or harm anyone.

You clearly don't even know your history.

[skunk]

I think you missed something there. Note the qualification at the end. That's how I would define the difference.You describe others as destined for damnation, while at the same time denying your cult the sobriquets of "strange" and "sinister"? I'm impressed.

Atheism, though I completely oppose it, is not a cult in my view. Misguided and eventually leading it's members to damnation, but not "strange or sinister".Atheism is simply a refusal to believe in utter hogwash. What could be misguided about that?

Even though their distant ancestors persecuted my distant ancestors, I hold the current generation no malice and don't regard them as a cult.What the gehenna are you talking about? Which "distant ancestors" of yours were ever persecuted by Jews? We need to know.

Catholicism - Has had some fairly destructive tendencies over the centuries, and arguably is one of the major sources of people "turning atheist", but even all of that notwithstanding I still don't view them as a cult.The very fact that you can differentiate between the "destructive tendencies" of Catholicism and Protestantism with a straight face is utterly ludicrous.

Christianity is not about the domination of peopleIf it isn't about domination, then why is its leader called Dominus?
Christianity is not about trying to suck every last dime out of every single last of it's parishioners, nor giving them brain-washing "audits"It's about all of those things.Use your head and think. Analyze. Use your critical thinking skills. C'mon, I know you can.This patronising attitude from someone so blind to their own prejudices is most revealing.

[Brianstorm91]

If it isn't about domination, then why is its leader called Dominus?

That's Catholic, isn't it?

[Agathon]

Use your head and think. Analyze. Use your critical thinking skills. C'mon, I know you can.

I did. Your religion, like all the others is an irrational cult. It's the duty of all honest people to seek to destroy it, much as they would seek to destroy any other theory of reality built on lies. No tolerance for lies, especially when they affect everyone else, as religions do (they just seem incapable of restraint in this respect).

I support these people going after Scientology. It's a wholly pernicious organization, founded by an insane pervert, which financially exploits its members (in other words, it's the same as most religions). Here's hoping that more of this sort of thing happens with other religions.

[skunk]

That's Catholic, isn't it?No, it's Latin. Anno Domini is cross-platform.

[it5five]

People didn't much like Christianity when it first came about did they?

It's a shame that nobody put an end to that cult before it went mainstream.

I know it might be hard for you Christians to do, but you're going to have to realize that both of these "religions" require exactly the same of their followers. They ask them to believe in a ridiculous creation story that has absolutely no real world proof, and base their entire faith on a book written by men that have no connection or evidence of the story of their religion.

Both religions are about power and money. The only difference is that one of these religions was created in a time when people know a great deal more about the world.

[Iscariot]

I'm deeply offended by all of you, whom I had once considered my friends. When you're in a car accident and I stop because I'm the only one who can really help, you'll change your tune.

[yg17]

I'm deeply offended by all of you, whom I had once considered my friends. When you're in a car accident and I stop because I'm the only one who can really help, you'll change your tune.


Uhhh.....what?

[MikeTheC]

So, Iscariot, does this mean you're a Scientologist? If so, well, that's your choice. You could just as well be purple, it doesn't offend me.

As for what you folks want to deem as some kind of inherent contradictions...

Ok, from the standpoint that I think atheism leads people to damnation, and yet I don't classify that religion as "strange and sinister", I probably should have stated it better. So, here goes.

Atheism does not try to bankrupt people in a financial sense. It does not seek to prevent people from obtaining proper medical care. It doesn't seek to mind-control people in the sense that Scientology does. It was in those kinds of senses specifically that I meant it isn't strange and sinister.

There's no question that various cults over the centuries, as well as mainstream religions over the centuries, in and of themselves, have done bad things to the community, and individuals in the community. However, again that's like saying John Doe, a nutjob who lives in his parent's basement even though he's now in his 30s or 40s, who does all kinds of strange stuff, just because he's a Star Trek fan, then whatever ill he does should reflect upon all of Star Trek fandom. I'm a Star Trek fan. I'm not a sinless, perfect human being, but I'm no social miscreant (sp?), either.

It's just a straw argument to try and take such situations and say, "Well, because Catholocism executed people because they believed in witchcraft and thought they were witches, all Christianity is evil." What a load of rubbish. If you truly believe that, go back and read the Bible. Find where it says we should go around killing each other, or socially ostracising each other on no basis, or that we should rob or otherwise steal from each other, or lie, cheat and swindle to get where we want, or to gain the upper hand in a situation, and on and on.

There's an awful lot of people who have done ill under the banner of Christianity, but please don't presume to accuse all the rest of us on that basis.

[yg17]

Atheism does not try to bankrupt people in a financial sense. It does not seek to prevent people from obtaining proper medical care. It doesn't seek to mind-control people in the sense that Scientology does. It was in those kinds of senses specifically that I meant it isn't strange and sinister.


Thanks for clarifying that you were talking about scientology there, I thought you were talking about christianity.

[obeygiant]

I'm deeply offended by all of you, whom I had once considered my friends. When you're in a car accident and I stop because I'm the only one who can really help, you'll change your tune.

Are you just quoting tom cruise? Or are these your words?

It doesn't take a frickin Scientologist to stop and help someone in an accident. Anyone can do it, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, Mooney. Just last winter there was a car in a ditch on a country road on the way to my parents house. They skidded off the road and the car was on its side. Both occupants were bleeding and we stopped and took them to the local hospital. Does that make me a Scientologist, no, it makes me a normal human being.

[Iscariot]

Uhhh.....what?

See the Tom Cruise recruitment video. "Being a Scientologist, when you drive past an accident, it's not like anyone else," [Tom] gushes. "As you drive past, you know you have to do something...because you know you're the only one that can really help." (http://www.dose.ca/story.html?id=f16d5884-8259-4826-ab7e-1e4dc9ad370e&k=51398)

Are you just quoting tom cruise? Or are these your words?

It doesn't take a frickin Scientologist to stop and help someone in an accident. Anyone can do it, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, Mooney. Just last winter there was a car in a ditch on a country road on the way to my parents house. They skidded off the road and the car was on its side. Both occupants were bleeding and we stopped and took them to the local hospital. Does that make me a Scientologist, no, it makes me a normal human being.

No, only Scientologists can really help. At least, with accidents. If it happened because of negligence and was just a collision I guess you might be able to help, but I don't know the specifics.

[yg17]

I'm confused.....are you a scientologist?

[obeygiant]

I'm confused.....are you a scientologist?

No he's not. He's a Sarcasologist. Who usually are stranger than Scientologists only funnier.

Also coincidentally all paramedics happen to be Scientologists.

[Iscariot]

No he's not. He's a Sarcasologist. Who usually are stranger than Scientologists only funnier.

Also coincidentally all paramedics happen to be Scientologists.

I have special powers.

[skunk]

I have special powers.Unfortunately, those special powers do not seem to include having people understand the subtleties of your posts. :rolleyes:

I mean really, are you a Scientologist?

But seriously, wtf did Tom Cruise mean? Are all Scientologists qualified surgeons, or attorneys? Or do they just gawp at accidents in a specially helpful way? :confused:

[Iscariot]

Unfortunately, those special powers do not seem to include having people understand the subtleties of your posts. :rolleyes:

I mean really, are you a Scientologist?

But seriously, wtf did Tom Cruise mean? Are all Scientologists qualified surgeons, or attorneys? Or do they just gawp at accidents in a specially helpful way? :confused:

I believe there was an incident where he and his slavewife pulled over to help some accident victims in L.A., and he's referencing that as something that Scientology empowered him to do. A lot of the video is specific to terminology/events that would be more familiar to Scientologists than the average person.

[Apemanblues]

I think it's only fair to allow closet homosexuals to have their own religion if they want it.

[Iscariot]

I think it's only fair to allow closet homosexuals to have their own religion if they want it.

I'm not comin' out tha closet
so you can just go away

[Apemanblues]

I'm not comin' out tha closet
so you can just go away


"Tom you gotta come outta the closet. Oh ma gaad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSlwPggPCHU)."

[Cromulent]

Catholicism - Has had some fairly destructive tendencies over the centuries, and arguably is one of the major sources of people "turning atheist", but even all of that notwithstanding I still don't view them as a cult.

Protestantism has only been around for 4 - 500 years. If this is the case then your religion is also responsible for some of the earlier misdeeds of the catholic faith.

Christianity is not about the domination of people, nor about the tyrannizing of it's members, nor anyone else. Christianity does not try and hurt or harm anyone.

Yet you are perfectly happy to claim that anyone not following Christianity is eternally damned. Many Christians also have the rather irrating and disrespectful habit of trying to convert atheists.

If you want atheists to start respecting your beliefs, then start respecting ours and don't ram religion down our throats.

Arguably, neither did Judaism before it. Christianity is not about trying to suck every last dime out of every single last of it's parishioners, nor giving them brain-washing "audits", nor denying them the benefit of psychologists and psychiatrists (regardless of their own personal religious background) nor anything else.

It just believes in raising children from birth into the Christian faith thus bypassing the need for brainwashing.

Personally I think all children should be brought up free of religion so they can make their own informed decision.

Have there been whack-jobs in it's midst over the years? Have there been crackpots? Sure. So what? There's been crackpots and nutjobs and all sorts of things in the midst of Star Trek fandom, the computer world, and on and on. It's hardly logical to come to the conclusion that society is all bad because any one of it's members is a deviant. Use your head and think. Analyze. Use your critical thinking skills. C'mon, I know you can.

I'm not sure where anyone claimed anything like that.

[Don't panic]

I think you missed something there. Note the qualification at the end. That's how I would define the difference.


i think it's interesting how you separate the largest, oldest most respected and by far most established 'flavor' of christianity as borderline cult, list a number of reason/occasions of cult-like behaviour in christians and then oddly conclude that it's not a cult (whatever your sect is).

yet your approach certainly appears sinister to me (what, with all those people burning in hell for eternity) and some of the stuff you believe in would likely qualifies as strange to most reasonable people (parthenogenesis, variable-density people, ESPers and so on).

[solvs]

On the other hand, if you think about it, this is similar to terrorism is it not?
Not really. They aren't blowing anyone up, and are discouraging computer hacking and other illegal things, specifically speaking out against anything that would cause physical harm. And considering terrorists usually don't care about hurting people, or collateral damage, using such a loaded term against a group of people who are doing little more than waging a mostly internet viral campaign is a bit much don't you think?

they have a right to exist just like every other cult following or religion.
It's not a problem with their existence, it's a problem with their tactics. For one, they make you pay to learn their "secrets". One of the main points about this is that they believe people should know what they're getting into before joining up. It's also very hard to get out of once you (or a family member) is involved, another main point of this, as one of their supporters has an Uncle who just happens to be the current leader of the Scientology movement (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5heELOXbk_8qWowwJGtd3RrEXdqgQ) (no, not Tom). They allege that it breaks families and friends apart, and worse. The lawyers and their constant threats against anyone who speaks out against them don't help either.

There's a reason people don't like Scientology, and frankly, I don't blame them.

[angelneo]

As for what you folks want to deem as some kind of inherent contradictions...

Ok, from the standpoint that I think atheism leads people to damnation, and yet I don't classify that religion as "strange and sinister", I probably should have stated it better. So, here goes... <snipe>


I don't think atheism is a religion, but wait let me go back to my atheism meetings and discuss with those atheist elders. Maybe they have some atheism code that may prove you correct.

[Apemanblues]

Atheism is the obverse of theism, neither of which are religions. Nor is desim, pantheism, Polytheism or any position on the mere existence of God/gods.

You can indeed be these things and also be religious (eg. an atheist may be a Buddhist, or a theist a Christian), but theism and it's obverse are both ontological positions, not religions.