Microsoft thinks iTunes will fail

[MacsRgr8]

From Maccentral....

Here's (http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/10/17/msitunes/index.php?redirect=1066395914000) the link.

Microsoft can't stand losing. :D

[dswoodley]

Everyone read this article (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2003/oct03/10-15MusicServices.asp) ?

Fester thinks MS customers want choices and Apple doesn't give any. Why does this comment seem strange to me?:rolleyes:

[edesignuk]

...funny that :rolleyes:

[1macker1]

I sorta see what he is trying to say. It's a valid point. If a person buys from the other Music stores, they can use the same MP3 player, but is they buy from the Apple store they are stuck with the iPod. (not that's a bad device to be stuck with). Either Apple need to support WMA or the others need to start supporting AAC.

[Le Big Mac]

I saw that (or some quotes from it). It's typical spin. Basically, Microsoft is saying iTunes is bad because "you ought to use our proprietary standard." It's likely garbage: the market will sort this out, or Microsoft will use it's heavy-handed tactics to assure that WMA/WMP wins out.

What it really means is that Microsoft is actually pretty scared that people will reject its standard and use another one that they don't control. If Apple's claim of 31% market share for the ipod is right, then MS does have something to be worried about. 3% they can dismiss as irrelevant, but 31% is significant enough to matter. If that many folks are downloading songs that are AAC encoded, that will win out over WMA/WMP. Once others adopt AAC playback (which they'll have to, to compete with the iPod), fewer cos. will have any reason to bother with WMA format. MS loses for once.

So the real question is who blinks first: Apple supporting WMA on iTunes/iPod or all the other vendors of mp3 players supporting AAC as well, so they can play iTunes songs? I'm guessing the other vendors, because they have an incentive to market players that can play any format, whereas Apple has an incentive to hold tight.

[1macker1]

I think apple is jumping the gun with the iTMS for Windows. I mean what windows users is really going to get rid of their WMA for AAC. I think (and i could be wrong) that most people by PC's due to their low cost. Why would apple think people would flock to the iTMS and have to buy and ipod (299.99 for the low end) when they can get WMA, MP3, music player for 100 dollers. Sure it's not the same quality as the iPod, but if they were worried about quality, they'd be using a Mac to begin with.:)

[arn]

I'd ask people not make this a WMA vs AAC quality thread.

People have expressed their opinions on whether one format is "better" than the other. The point is, I think... it doesn't matter for this discussion.

arn

[arn]

My personal opinion is that I would be more worried if Apple had just released iTunes for Windows as is... without the partnerships.

I think mind-share has a lot to do with successful adoption.

If you get enough people to start with iTunes... then I think it won't matter... people will stick with it.

Apple DOES need to try to increase their AAC/Fairplay (DRM) licensing. I know Apple makes a fair amount of money on the iPod... but there's room in the market for other 3rd party mp3/aac players.

I can't tell how someone can get a FairPlay license. Is it through Apple or is it actually part of AAC/MPEG4?

arn

[dswoodley]

Originally posted by arn
I'd ask people not make this a WMA vs AAC quality thread.

People have expressed their opinions on whether one format is "better" than the other. The point is, I think... it doesn't matter for this discussion.

arn

I agree...my point was what a bunch of hypocrites MS is (are? whatever)! WMA vs AAC has been done to death.

[Steve M]

You can play music in just about every format BUT WMA. So if you rip your own CD's, or import your music collection from other sources, you can still play all that music.

The only limitation is that you can't play music from Napster 2.0, MusicMatch, or the other services. And I'm willing to bet that iTunes and iPod will be playing WMA files within the next few months...

This article is horribly misleading, but what do you expect from a Microsoft employee. Wonder if they're going to pay MP3 manufacturers to NOT support AAC? Hmmm...

[panphage]

But both iTunes and the iPod use MP3 just fine. So MS and the wma-only download services can bite a big one. It's so funny that these people are criticizing apple for using one closed, proprietary format that locks users out rather than using another closed, proprietary format that locks users out. If people have a player that only plays mp3s, they can't use ANY of these download services.

[usingmac]

This Microspec bafoon contradicts his own words as to why Microsoft has chosen not to become part of the MP4 standard.

Teenagers are not stupid. I think Microsoft is thinking they are.


When they use Itunes, they will see what the word "class act" means.

[cgmpowers]

I was listening to a commercial on XM Radio, only caught the tail end of it..

It was telling you about how you can download songs off the Internet and it cost "x" amount a month and then an additional price per CD burn...

Yeah, it wasn't iTunes...I don't know what service it wasy but it sounded great.

I really would rather pay a monthly service fee and THEN pay each and every damned time I burned a CD...

Now if that's not limiting...I sure the hell don't know what is...

Hahaha...I think I'll stick with iTunes. 400,000 songs and I purchased 500 so far...I think I'm happy where I am. No monthly subscription, $0.99 a song, unlimited burns at no additional cost..

Christopher

[VIREBEL661]

My impression of this whole thing is that this service is INTENDED to be for iPod users, right? Not for all the competition. Apple isn't setting this up to be THE windoze solution for audio, rather, it's the Apple solution for windoze users with an iPod. Just added support for Apple's product, which other companies will have a hard time matching. Granted, it has a lot of extra bells and whistles for those who don't use it for the iPod support, but that's the primary market in my opinion.

[arn]

Originally posted by VIREBEL661
My impression of this whole thing is that this service is INTENDED to be for iPod users, right? Not for all the competition. Apple isn't setting this up to be THE windoze solution for audio, rather, it's the Apple solution for windoze users with an iPod. Just added support for Apple's product, which other companies will have a hard time matching. Granted, it has a lot of extra bells and whistles for those who don't use it for the iPod support, but that's the primary market in my opinion.

no, I think that's backward.... the iTunes Music Store for Windows is to sell iPods, and eventually Macs.

Apple's basically said so.


arn

[yamabushi]

AAC is owned by Dolby and Apple uses it under license. There is no reason that I can see why manufacturers wouldn't simply add the capability to use AAC to future digital music devices.

[Frohickey]

*sniff* *sniff*

Do you smell that? I swear that I can smell fear coming from Microsoft. ;)

[racolvin]

Originally posted by 1macker1
I think apple is jumping the gun with the iTMS for Windows. I mean what windows users is really going to get rid of their WMA for AAC. I think (and i could be wrong) that most people by PC's due to their low cost. Why would apple think people would flock to the iTMS and have to buy and ipod (299.99 for the low end) when they can get WMA, MP3, music player for 100 dollers. Sure it's not the same quality as the iPod, but if they were worried about quality, they'd be using a Mac to begin with.:)

.. I can tell you I've got over 5500 legit songs on my computer (ripped from my personal CD collection) and not a single one of them is WMA. I haven't bought any songs from the prior crop of music stores BECAUSE they were WMA with all the DRM crap associated with it and the fact that no MP3 player I wanted would play them anyway.

I downloaded iTunes for Windows last night, installed it, ran it played with it for 20 minutes and promptly removed MusicMatch Jukebox Plus (that I paid $$ for a lifetime upgrade for). After removing MusicMatch I promptly played with iTunes some more, ripped a CD, burned a playlist, registered for the iTunes Music Store and bought $10 worth of music - all in under a further 20 minutes.

Micrososoft and WMA format can kiss my ease-of-use-loving arse. I may even be a Mac user by this time next year but I can guarantee I'll be a proud 40G iPod owner by Christmas of this year.

If lack of support for WMA is Apple's only weakness in iTunes, then they have very little to worry about. That'd be like saying Cindy Crawford is an ugly ho that'll never work as a model just because she has a mole on her face.

Now there is one feature I've found lacking from iTunes ... it doesn't have any way (that I can find) of printing a CD jewelcase liner or CD label. I will admit I would like to be able to print a nice cd jacket with track listing, etc.

Other than that, its seemingly perfect.

[arn]

Originally posted by yamabushi
AAC is owned by Dolby and Apple uses it under license. There is no reason that I can see why manufacturers wouldn't simply add the capability to use AAC to future digital music devices.

But who owns "FairPlay"? The Digital Rights Management?

arn

[arn]

Originally posted by racolvin
I downloaded iTunes for Windows last night, installed it, ran it played with it for 20 minutes and promptly removed MusicMatch Jukebox Plus (that I paid $$ for a lifetime upgrade for).

......

I may even be a Mac user by this time next year but I can guarantee I'll be a proud 40G iPod owner by Christmas of this year.


Haha.... you are the Poster Child for Apple's iTunes Windows.


Now there is one feature I've found lacking from iTunes ... it doesn't have any way (that I can find) of printing a CD jewelcase liner or CD label. I will admit I would like to be able to print a nice cd jacket with track listing, etc.


Nope... no feature for that yet in iTunes.

arn

[redAPPLE]

i hope Apple prooves everybody wrong again, this time.

be honest, was anyone surprised that m$ reacted the way they did?

[goops]

Microsoft loves to make up crap and rewrite history. People seem to forget their history of trying to hijack file formats with their own pseudo-proprietary rip-offs of others.

Anyone remember the whole shebang when they had copied code directly from Quicktime and pasted it into their Windows Media code?

The wisest thing for Apple and everyone else to do is steer clear of the proprietary Microsoft stuff - and for Microsoft to adopt AAC or at least embrace MP3 to a greater degree instead of being a self-centered bunch of hippocrites.

[yamabushi]

Originally posted by arn
But who owns "FairPlay"? The Digital Rights Management?

arn

Digital rights management is a general term for the types of licensing restictions placed upon digital media. Fair Play is the name of the DRM used by Apple. Basically it is the method of transfer of ownership and what rights a person has once they own it. In Apple's Fair Play the rights given to the purchaser are fairly broad and approximately equal to what you would have if you had bought the music on a CD. This article may make things clearer.
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=4450

[racolvin]

Originally posted by arn
Haha.... you are the Poster Child for Apple's iTunes Windows.



Nope... no feature for that yet in iTunes.

arn

I'm not sure if I should be insulted or flattered by the whole "poster child" thing ;)

I can tell you that since coming in to work today, I've gotten 6 other Windows users to download and try iTunes. We'll see if they become converts or not but they all loved its first impressions.

[arn]

Originally posted by yamabushi
Digital rights management is a general term for the types of licensing restictions placed upon digital media. Fair Play is the name of the DRM used by Apple. [/URL]

I understand that. I was wondering: if I was a 3rd party MP3 player manufacturer... how do I license FairPlay for use in my player? who owns it?

arn

[Mudbug]

I think the comment about this being a closed system points out what is inherently good about the whole thing. Most consumers don't care one little bit what file format they use for something (or even know the difference, honestly) and so keeping things simple and direct makes consumers happy. They don't want to know how it works, they just want it to work. Apple is providing a closed system in order to provide just that - a system that just works. And now it "just works" for a whole lot more people than it did, which will show a lot of those curious consumers how the "closed system" Apple way of doing things really is a better way to do it. There are optional ways of doing things, just not millions of them that don't work. And incorporating the iTunes button in AOL/Music is not only incredible integration and product placement, it also helps Joe and Jill Consumer use their existing products to better their experience with the technology they already own. And people buy AOL service because (in their opinion, I tend not to agree) AOL just works. 25 million people think so. Seems like a match made in heaven.

And the Pepsi deal is Cross-Marketing of products at it's absolute finest. Reaching your core audience is great no matter how you do it. I admit I am not a Pepsi drinker, but I can stomach Sierra Mist, and plan to start up my drinking fest of it come February. Anyone that doesn't want to participate - send me your bottlecaps :).

[pjkelnhofer]

Originally posted by 1macker1
...
Why would apple think people would flock to the iTMS and have to buy and ipod (299.99 for the low end) when they can get WMA, MP3, music player for 100 dollers...
I am confused.
I had been using a RIO mp3 player with iTunes for about a year ago.
When I plugged it into my USB port it appears a playlist in iTunes.
I simply just have to convert songs to mp3 before I can add the to the RIO playlist.
Is this no longer possible?

[Mudbug]

Originally posted by arn
I understand that. I was wondering: if I was a 3rd party MP3 player manufacturer... how do I license FairPlay for use in my player? who owns it?

arn

Maybe this will help:
http://www.applelinks.com/articles/2003/04/20030430002640.shtml

It's also listed as a trademark under the legal pages at Apple.com:
http://www.apple.com/legal/appletmlist.html

[peterj1967]

I use this...

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/14077

Edit: Oops, that's meaningless if you're on a PC, my bad. Better buy a mac ;-)

Originally posted by racolvin
.
Now there is one feature I've found lacking from iTunes ... it doesn't have any way (that I can find) of printing a CD jewelcase liner or CD label. I will admit I would like to be able to print a nice cd jacket with track listing, etc.

Other than that, its seemingly perfect.

[yamabushi]

My understanding of Fair Play is that it is not necessary or appropriate for manufacturers. It is only a contract between Apple, the owner of the song, and the consumer. Manufacturers would only have to deal with Dolby for the right to use AAC.

[arn]

Originally posted by yamabushi
My understanding of Fair Play is that it is not necessary or appropriate for manufacturers. It is only a contract between Apple, the owner of the song, and the consumer. Manufacturers would only have to deal with Dolby for the right to use AAC.

Well, there is some technology involved to implement the Digital Rights Management. My impression is that Apple developed this technology.

You can't play a Protected AAC in a "regular" AAC Player. It has to know how to authorize/decode the file (aka 'FairPlay').

Anyhow... I don't want this to get into a discussion on FairPlay. My only point was that while people are saying that AAC is an "open" format... Apple appears to have their hands in the DRM version that they use in the iTunes Music Store.

I don't know the entire answer, but my impression is that you can't just go to the MPEGLA and get a license for AAC and expect to be able to decode iTunes Music songs.

Again... if anyone has any other information on it, I'm interested.

arn

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by 1macker1
I sorta see what he is trying to say. It's a valid point. If a person buys from the other Music stores, they can use the same MP3 player, but is they buy from the Apple store they are stuck with the iPod. (not that's a bad device to be stuck with). Either Apple need to support WMA or the others need to start supporting AAC.

Umm, no.

If a person buys from the other music stores, he MIGHT be able to put it on one of several WMA/p-compatible portable music players. Not all MP3 players also play WMA, and of those that do play WMA, only a minority of them play WMA/protected, which is what the music stores for Windows sell.

And, of course, 30% of the MP3 players out there are the iPod. And, yes, 70% of the money spent on MP3 players go to buying iPods, which tells us that those with discretionary money tend to buy the iPod. Those with discretionary money are the ones who buy music online rather than steal it or live without.

So, no, in that context it is *not* understandable. WMA/p is JUST as proprietary and MORE non-standard (standard meaning defined by an external and not sales-driven organization) as AAC/FairPlay.

More vendors make WMA/p portable players, but more consumers buy AAC/FairPlay portable players.

[medea]

Originally posted by arn
I understand that. I was wondering: if I was a 3rd party MP3 player manufacturer... how do I license FairPlay for use in my player? who owns it?

arn
the license would have to come from apple.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by 1macker1
I think apple is jumping the gun with the iTMS for Windows. I mean what windows users is really going to get rid of their WMA for AAC. I think (and i could be wrong) that most people by PC's due to their low cost. Why would apple think people would flock to the iTMS and have to buy and ipod (299.99 for the low end) when they can get WMA, MP3, music player for 100 dollers. Sure it's not the same quality as the iPod, but if they were worried about quality, they'd be using a Mac to begin with.:)

IMHO, the vast majority of Windows users do not use Windows out of sheer cheapness.

The most important factors are:

1) Their computer at work is Windows, so they have the same at home.

2) They have proprietary work programs that require Windows.

3) They have a massive back-catalogue of legal and semi-legal shareware and freeware utilities and such that they never really use but don't want to give up just in case.

4) Games, game GAMES!!!

5) They don't know that there is an alternative available (really. This is a big one!) I'll lump into this those folks who have convinced themselves that Windows is actually more productive for them :)

6) They are too cheap to get a Mac, either through faulty analysis (not taking into account the value of their time and the long-term costs of Windows) or through circumstance (their time is worth nothing, and they have to live for today, not tomorrow; TCO is bunk!)

An iPod is clearly a valid choice for the folks in groups 1-4. I'm not positive we really want the other two groups :)

[yamabushi]

A proprietary standard has some benefits. For example, the owner of the standard has some control overf how it is used. That means that if a company such as Microsoft attempts to hijack the standard and alter it, as they did with Java, they will get sued.

This could help the consumer by maintaining a single consistent standard. That way you should be able to play a song you bought five years ago on the player you just bought yesterday and vice versa.

[medea]

my opinion is that iTunes for Win. is an attempt to get the attention of windows users and that is it, it is not meant to dominate the windows market, it's a free program. apple hopes people will use the program, use an iPod and think about using a mac......
apple will not adapt the iPod to use Windows Media because it will not help apples cause, and as far as the iPod being the only music player itms is compatable with, that is perfectly ok, plenty of windows users already own iPods and they continue to sell just as well. Apple is not getting in the business of making windows software here, they are using windows to get people interested in the software apple already makes, for macs.

[Armsreach]

Well, if someone on a PC had an mp3 player that supported mp3 but not AAC, but really enjoyed purchasing from the itms, then they could always burn a CD, rip it to an mp3 and then put it on their player. A bit ass backwards, but it works for them and saves them $300 on an iPod that they may not be ready to buy. From what I understand on some of the other windows music services (I;ve never used them myself, so I don't know) doing that is a bit more difficult, especially if you only use windows media player. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, since I haven't touched a PC since early in the win98 development and haven't even looked at the other sites.

[Le Big Mac]

Originally posted by arn
My only point was that while people are saying that AAC is an "open" format... Apple appears to have their hands in the DRM version that they use in the iTunes Music Store.


As I understand it, AAC is "open" but fairplay, which provides the DRM, is apple proprietary, and they haven't yet offered it for licenses. So, you and I could rip music in AAC format, and play it on any player that can read AAC, but if I buy a song in AAC with fairplay DRM, for now I'm stuck playing it on an iPod.

So really, AAC with Fairplay is not too different from WMA, except that Microsoft has licensed WMA.

Now, Apple has two choices: license Fairplay or not. I say they should license it. First, didn't they learn their lesson with the mac OS? Second, if they do license it, what are they giving up? A few iPod sales perhaps, because Roxio (for example) can make an mp3 player that could be used with iTMS in the place of an iPod. But that's really it. If the iPod is superior, then people will buy it. If not, it's exclusive ability to play iTMS songs will not be seen as an advantage by many, and sales will be hurt.

Now, the counterargument is "we can't use iTMS to sell iPods if it's not exclusive." Well, true, but that doesn't mean you won't sell any. First off, you have cross promotion: a lot of people will think to buy an iPod solely because of iTMS. Second, if the iPod is better, people will buy it. Third, you at least get some iTMS sales from folks who want to use a third-party player. Sure, that's not a lot of money, but isn't it better than having them go to a competitor for everything?

[tychay]

Originally posted by 1macker1
I think (and i could be wrong) that most people by PC's due to their low cost. Why would apple think people would flock to the iTMS and have to buy and ipod (299.99 for the low end) when they can get WMA, MP3, music player for 100 dollers.

You mean the same people downloading mp3s like mad from Kazaa? Last I checked, MP3 support is equal and better on the free iTunes for Windows (full speed encode, VBR, + fixings) than any other free (crippled) player for Windows. Last I checked, Kazaa and other services weren't trading WMA. Has anything changed in the last day?

In the Mac world we should complain that iTunes doesn't support OggVorbis or FLAC (both free and open software standards) long before a Windows user has cause to complain that Apple doesn't support WMA.

Maybe Microsoft will get off their FUD and support full MP3 encoder for Windows Media 9? Hmm, a company with 30 billion in the bank can't spare a few pennies to Fraunhofer, et. al. and yet Apple with a fraction of that amount can for a competing os!

This is a typical microsoft strategy. Look at how they pointed to AIM/ICQ as being proprietary closed and demanded that they open it up? What's happening now--3rd party chatting systems are dropping like flies off of MSN.

Take care,

[chickengrease16]

i guess that the whole "itunes music store is 70% of the market share" thing has absolutely nothing to do with it. i just think that microsoft is trying to compensate for their lack of... good software... by using valid, but unimportant, remarks about a company that actually has its head on straight.

[neutrino23]

I don't see any advantage for Apple to support WMA files. On the other hand, there would be a lot of extra expense. It would cost more to develop the firmware for iPod and software for iTunes, there is probably some license fee or other control given over to micro$oft, and if they had to support both AAC and WMA formats in iTMS that would double the size of the song database. It would also lead to endless confusion as people download the wrong format by mistake or find that some songs were only supplied in one format and not the other (the music company encodes the song, not Apple). Apple likes things clean and neat and orderly. Keep it simple. One format. No confusion.

[Stike]

Fester says, Apple is using a closed system... that it is about choice. And that the customer will decide, and the most convenient system will win.

Here we have it: Compare it to consoles: M$ uses a closed system, they even deny the installation of Linux or modded XBoxes on their Live service. Game companies are not happy with MS´s business model (royalties), so the number of games stays low...
Sony has a (somewhat) closed system too, but they did it right...

In the end, it is not (okay, partly) the "closedness" of the system, which decides the success. Apple did it right, or, at least better than everyone else now.

We all have a choice. I can get the PS2 or the XBox (a nod to Gamecube people, these are just examples - youre not forgotten ;) ). I can get myself iTunes, and I can uninstall it if I think that one alternative is better. All that criticism about a closed system is yadda yadda. I could even sell the iPod if something better comes along (who laughes here?). Okay, thats just a theory :D

Final: I have choice. I decide where my money is spent. May the best win...

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by racolvin
Now there is one feature I've found lacking from iTunes ... it doesn't have any way (that I can find) of printing a CD jewelcase liner or CD label. I will admit I would like to be able to print a nice cd jacket with track listing, etc.

Other than that, its seemingly perfect.

Well, just to make things a smidge easier for you, at least you can avoid re-typing all those track names. If you select a bunch of tracks (or all the tracks in a playlist), right click on them, and select "Copy", the text shown in the window will be3 put on the clipboard (fields tab-delimitted). You can then Ctrl-V this into your favorite cover art editor program.

And, no, Ctrl-C does NOT work in place of right-click/select copy. Oops.

[rjrufo]

Originally posted by arn
Haha.... you are the Poster Child for Apple's iTunes Windows.



Nope... no feature for that yet in iTunes.

arn

I don't know about Windows, but there is an Applescript that builds a CD case insert with Appleworks through iTunes. Now, if it would take the album art and add it into the insert...

[SoGood]

Who cares about WMxx (whatever it's called) or AAC. Don't most people still use MP3?

Even if people starts to buy music online, you'd stay with your hardware wouldn't you? Be it iPod or whatever the competition might be.

Further, the ultimate format winner will be the one that has the largest buyer. If iTMS really is taking 70% of the consumer market, then that's the most fearsome number to take note.

However, I agree that Apple will need a cheaper model to haul in those buyers. But yet again, those may just be too cheap to even care to buy any songs online. ;)

[Dippo]

Why is Micro$oft calling iTunes a "closed" system. They are the one that wants everyone to use their stupid WMA crap.

Micro$oft said some similar things when Linux came out, but they were unable to stop it. They are scared because they know iTunes and the iPod are better than anything else out there.

I do wish that the music bought from iTunes could be played on other devices. I am sure MP3 player companies would want to support AAC with Fairplay, or did Micro$oft sign some exclusive deal with all of them?

[VIREBEL661]

Originally posted by arn
no, I think that's backward.... the iTunes Music Store for Windows is to sell iPods, and eventually Macs.

Apple's basically said so.


arn

I agree with you, however I think it works both ways. A good move for Apple either way.

[VIREBEL661]

Originally posted by Dippo
Why is Micro$oft calling iTunes a "closed" system. They are the one that wants everyone to use their stupid WMA crap.

Micro$oft said some similar things when Linux came out, but they were unable to stop it. They are scared because they know iTunes and the iPod are better than anything else out there.

I do wish that the music bought from iTunes could be played on other devices. I am sure MP3 player companies would want to support AAC with Fairplay, or did Micro$oft sign some exclusive deal with all of them?

It's closed because it doesn't use advanced microsoft proprietary technology!:D

[ginjg]

Originally posted by jettredmont
Well, just to make things a smidge easier for you, at least you can avoid re-typing all those track names. If you select a bunch of tracks (or all the tracks in a playlist), right click on them, and select "Copy", the text shown in the window will be3 put on the clipboard (fields tab-delimitted). You can then Ctrl-V this into your favorite cover art editor program.

And, no, Ctrl-C does NOT work in place of right-click/select copy. Oops.

Just choose export playlist from the file menu to creat a text file.

Then you could edit the unwanted info out
Or
use Discus (free with Toast) to import the file (it gives you a dialogue to select just the info you want). I'm sure theree are other label programs that will let you do this as well.

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Funny that he doesn't see the MS disadvantage - their stuff can't work with iPod, the most popular and coveted MP3/AAC/tons of other stuff player on the market. My guess is that it is only a matter of time until MusicMatch can't communicate with the iPod anymore. I wouldn't be surprised of there are near 2 million iPods sold overall by the turn of the year. That means iPod is in clear control - especially over the non-flash players. If iPod and iTunes Music Store gain a large percentage of the market (over 50% on the PC) then it is Microsoft and company that will be having to beg Apple to let them in. So I'm not shocked that MS is predicting failure. I think they're worried that there store will enter the market too far behind and with too many bugs. If there's a good third-party WMA to AAC or MP3 encoder then Apple doesn't have a problem.

And I also find MS hypocritical anyways. They don't allow MP3 encoding (without shelling out cash) - so why aren't they presenting MS customers with options? And if Windows customers like options so much then wouldn't they consider Apple and the Mac a viable option with the release of iTunes and iTMS? If I were Microsoft I'd say that MS customers are lemmings and have no choice but to use MS, because if they truly wanted options then MS would be in deep doodoo.

[nodmonkey]

Who thinks one of the rival services: e.g. Napster, is going to stike a deal with Coca Cola? I just anticipate that being the most sensible thing for them to do. Rip the idea, and apply it to the more successful drinks brand.

feeling uneasy.

[rotorblade]

But who owns "FairPlay"? The Digital Rights Management?

Fairplay DRM was developed by Veridisc Corp. Veridisc was funded by Greg Halpern, CEO of Circle Group Internet, Inc back in 2000 for the specific task of developing a DRM scheme which would satisfy the recording industry.

Veridisc was looking to sell Fairplay to the recording industry. They also set out to partner with computer manufacturers to include their software in new computers.

Here's where the story ends. Veridisc/Fairplay seems to have vanished as fast as they came on the scene back in 2000. Their website (veridisc.com) now displays porn.

I'm almost willing to bet Apple (possibly Pixar) bought this small startup company and now owns all rights to Fairplay. I certainly have no knowledge of whether this is true or not. Just conjecture.

As a side note. It's interesting to note the Fairplay system also works with online movies as well.

iMovie online next?

[Stike]

Originally posted by nodmonkey
Who thinks one of the rival services: e.g. Napster, is going to stike a deal with Coca Cola?

feeling uneasy.

I just hope that has nothing to do with me.
Now I am feeling uneasy...
;)

[TMay]

MS is whining because they can't imagine a way to create a better experience, and Apple having preempted them, must now resort to FUD.

As long as Apple can maintain value as the iPod matures, I don't think that they will have any problems. And this time, Apple has the volume on its side.

If only Apple could create a video experiment to preempt MS, and Sony. That would be something (and I bet SJ is quite aware of this).

[mr_bam]

I'm a Mac guy so I don't know if this'll work but with the Fair Play model from Apple you can burn a CD with iTunes on a Mac or PC and then surely re-import that into whatever Windows player you want to use - be that Micro$oft or WinAmp???

I don't think you can take a WMP 9 file and convert that to MP3 or AAC for use in other players except MS???

So isn't it MS that is locking users into a format.

Apple is setting PC users free with Fair Play for their music...

I think it is great! I just wish we could use the iTMS in the UK... sigh.

[JohnHummel]

think apple is jumping the gun with the iTMS for Windows. I mean what windows users is really going to get rid of their WMA for AAC.

I was reading in the Penny-arcade.com forums an interesting series of discussions about the Windows iTunes product.

Quite a few questions about "how to convert WMA to MP3", and once the link was made, people were reporting how they were shifting "1500 wma files" to mp3, so they could use them with the iTunes store.

That was about the time I realized that iTunes on Windows is going to be one big ****ing hit.

[maxtrax]

Looks like there are already a few AAC/MP3 players out there staring at like $80. So what the hell is MS talking about, closed system ONLY if you have an iPod. I really can't stand them....

click here to see the list I found in 5 seconds through Google (http://www.dealtime.com/xPP-MP3_and_Digital_Media_Players-aac-~S-213)

[tace]

I am a veteran of the Software Industry and I use pretty much most common OS platforms everyday. Windows, Linux, Solaris, ect. One thing I am sick and tired of is this M$ philosophy (sic?) of lots of choices to do one thing regardless of quality and security.

I actually like how Apple takes a standard like UNIX and builds on top of it an interface that just works. I know this isn't a Mac vs Wintel debate, but Apple has done the same thing with digital music. Take the standard disk drive and digital music concept and build a product that is functional and reliable while being stylish. I can't remember the last time I saw a MS product that did that.

My point, who made M$oft people experts in anything, that they get to criticise those who get things done right. If I wasn't about to buy a Mac, I would download and use iTunes for Windows.

[Docrjm]

This is purely a case of sour grapes. Imagine, how can any upstart try or dare to compete with microsloth. We should be grateful for whatever offering they care to send.
Apple is at the forefront of this tech, with an open standard product and rights that are not restrictive.
MS are probably just bitchin' about the lack of WMA support because they can't claim more licence fees.
Poor MS, bad Apple for denying them a licence fee.:rolleyes:


Before anybody says, I know that Apple are not an Upstart.

[iMeowbot]

Originally posted by arn
But who owns "FairPlay"? The Digital Rights Management?

It belongs to Veridisc, a division of Circle Group Holdings.

Veridisc seem to have forgotten to renew their domain registration and some pr0n site grabbed it, but you can get to their info from the parent company's site at http://www.crgq.com/HTML/eMentorComp.html, or a direct link to Fairplay at http://64.244.235.240/

[Docrjm]

Originally posted by pjkelnhofer
I am confused.
I had been using a RIO mp3 player with iTunes for about a year ago.
When I plugged it into my USB port it appears a playlist in iTunes.
I simply just have to convert songs to mp3 before I can add the to the RIO playlist.
Is this no longer possible?
That is still true, however, if you dl from itms then those tunes will not be available to your rio. THere is a clutzy work around, convert to audio CD and re-rip as mp3. Not as good a quality.

[crazytom]

The one thing I've complained about is the cost of downloaded (compressed) music. For example, checking the iTunes site, the #2 downloaded album is "Everything to Everyone" by Barenaked Ladies: cost $9.99. Restrictions apply, compressed audio, you get a bunch of 1's and 0's in which you supply the media (CD/hard disk/ipod, print and case). Amazon has the album for $13.49, I'm sure it will go for cheaper in a couple of months, but you get the CD, media and case and can rip it to whatever format/compression you want to. (side note: I have found albums that are cheaper to buy the CD than it is to get it through iTMS (ie: Fountains of Wayne).

iTMS only gives you 1/10 of the music (the 1's and 0's) at 3/4 the price. (Assuming a 10:1 compression ratio).

To me, there's no 'bargain' or 'deal' by using iTMS. I'd much rather have the real physical CD, otherwise I'd feel like I'm getting ripped off. That's why I don't buy albums at iTMS.

On the other hand, the part of iTMS that interests me most is the ability to purchase just one song off of an album. The money that I'd save by not purchasing the other 9 songs on the album would get me 9 other songs that I would like. But, I still don't buy anything from iTMS because: a) it's second rate quality; b) it carries restrictions; and c) I'll probably be sick of the song after listening to is 20-30 times anyway.

But the failure of iTMS would mean that most all people are smart, comparison shop, and make informed decisions....but then again, California elected Arnold to be governor :eek, so it must be all about convenience and name recognition...

[racolvin]

Originally posted by racolvin
..
Now there is one feature I've found lacking from iTunes ... it doesn't have any way (that I can find) of printing a CD jewelcase liner or CD label. I will admit I would like to be able to print a nice cd jacket with track listing, etc.

Other than that, its seemingly perfect.

As I continue to use the software, I have now found another annoying thing ...

Users on another computer who are sharing your library (via Rendezvous), can't make their own playlists that reference your library. Dunno why that is but its incredibly annoying.

I've already sent that in as a feature request. Is this something you Mac folks can already do?

[Docrjm]

Just read the PRESSPASS, should probably be piss poor.
I ahave not read such ****e in a long time. Very much a case of we at m$ are wonderful, if you support us you are not too bad, but if you do anything else you are exclusionary.
As we are m$ lets pat ourselves on the back and tell everryone that apple are crap. What sort of medication did this guy forget to take???
He clearly needs it.:(

[webmasterkai]

Originally posted by maxtrax
[B]Looks like there are already a few AAC/MP3 players out there staring at like $80. So what the hell is MS talking about, closed system ONLY if you have an iPod. I really can't stand them....

Players around $100 usually hold 64MB worth of songs. About 80 min of music.

If someone wants a cheap option buy a hundred 80 min CDR's for $20 and use them in any cd player. :D

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by mr_bam
I'm a Mac guy so I don't know if this'll work but with the Fair Play model from Apple you can burn a CD with iTunes on a Mac or PC and then surely re-import that into whatever Windows player you want to use - be that Micro$oft or WinAmp???

I don't think you can take a WMP 9 file and convert that to MP3 or AAC for use in other players except MS???

So isn't it MS that is locking users into a format.

Apple is setting PC users free with Fair Play for their music...

I think it is great! I just wish we could use the iTMS in the UK... sigh.
You can:
Burn a CD from Windows MP that will work in iTunes (Mac and Win,) almost certain. Almost certain about vice versa too (with the exception of Mac/Win.)

[macmax]

there is a big difference if apple fights alone vs microsuck
and
apple, ibm against the same enemy, and on the side , having aol and pepsi backing you up.

[pugnus maximus]

it looks to me as if apple can first grab the windows user that owns an iPod - easy sell for itms Win.

Next is the windows user that doesn't have an "MP3" player - there are a lot of them out there. Side note - my boss downloaded itms win and today told me he was thinking of buying an ipod and a mac.

Both of these categories represent large numbers of people and I believe will result in more mac hardware sales.

iPods are more expensive than other players - although it offers more. Thus, windows users using itms that have "the money" to buy ipods will most likely be more wealthy than those complaining about the price of a player. these wealthy new ipod owners will be more likely to buy more apple hardware than a more financially challenged clientel...

[walkingmac]

can anyone clearly define (and I am not trying to bring up the WMA vs ACC) the stats on WMA and AAC. we all of course have our own personal bias (and I am slanted way mac), but with all the hopla and the other online services and portables using this encoding, just has me wondering why??? I mean... is it just becuase it is windoz and companies are used to seeing them as the standard to go by or what?....

Sorry, ok heres my opinion, but maybe it will help explain my question here.... I have never liked WM at all (audio or video). At teh same time it has been years since I have used a PC regularly. The only experiance I have with it is on my mac. So I am wondering if (like with earlier editions of QT on pc's) WM on the mac was just a badly writen player.

OK.... hope that clears up any gaps in my question... I am not trying to open up a can of worms and get ppl (specialy arn) upset for asking, I am just wanting to look at it from a spec stand point. Does WM have a technical edge on AAC or is that too fine of a hair t slice between personal preferance and cold hard facts?

[hulugu]

Originally posted by mr_bam
I'm a Mac guy so I don't know if this'll work but with the Fair Play model from Apple you can burn a CD with iTunes on a Mac or PC and then surely re-import that into whatever Windows player you want to use - be that Micro$oft or WinAmp???

I don't think you can take a WMP 9 file and convert that to MP3 or AAC for use in other players except MS???

So isn't it MS that is locking users into a format.

Apple is setting PC users free with Fair Play for their music...

I think it is great! I just wish we could use the iTMS in the UK... sigh.

You can convert WMA to MP3, but it's a pain and it requires extra - and not free - tools to do so without significant data loss. Totally not worth it.
Apple needs to work on iTunes for Europe and Canada next.

[X86BSD]

Originally posted by TMay
MS is whining because they can't imagine a way to create a better experience, and Apple having preempted them, must now resort to FUD.

As long as Apple can maintain value as the iPod matures, I don't think that they will have any problems. And this time, Apple has the volume on its side.

If only Apple could create a video experiment to preempt MS, and Sony. That would be something (and I bet SJ is quite aware of this).

Do the videos in iTunes Music Store count? I just watched the U@, Eagles, and other videos right in the music store (which uses QT). It's not a movie but music videos and interviews in the store is a start. Pixlet is coming in Panther and then who knows.

[Swift]

The complete lie that this depends on is astonishing, and it gives you an object lesson in how the "War Is Peace" software company operates all the time. Apple and other developers, long ago did work on the MPEG-4 and AAC open standards. Microsoft decided not to play, and then brought out a proprietary, incomplete implementation of the standards -- and even calls it MPEG4! Then the standards body declares the open standard fixed, and Apple releases Quicktime 6, which follows the standards. Then they use part of that standard in the Apple Store, protected AAC -- because otherwise, the labels would make it a no go. But Microsoft, dawdling like a wallflower as usual, does nothing itself. But then, when Apple writes a Windows app using the same open protocols: and that is "too limited." The gall of MS is truly astonishing; so much so that you can't really believe they'll pull this stuff until they do.

While I'm on the subject, I really wonder what the state of negotiations might be between MS and Apple about the WMA 9 codecs. I'm not sure which I might be in favor of, but I tend to believe it would be more in Apple's interest to be able to play back all MS codecs, and not be afraid that some people might download stuff from Napster and put it on their iPods. Does Apple think so too? Did they try to get them? There are a lot of possibilities: having the iPod and iTunes play back WMA as well as everything else would be a good thing. Would MS allow it? Or do they prefer to use FUD to discourage all that innovation they pretend to be doing, while relying on their monopoly and proprietary standards to control the market? Just asking.

[foniks2020]

Originally posted by crazytom
The one thing I've complained about is the cost of downloaded (compressed) music.


The restrictions on the music are quite minimal... almost to the point of non-existent for the everyday listener. Burn as much as you want, play on 3 machines at a time (not counting iPod), listen all you want, transfer to new machines any time... very unrestricted in my view.

As far as value goes... well you've hit it on the nose. CDs are still a better value if you ignore the inconvenience factor of having to go and find it and buy it from somewhere. The files on CD are higher quality. No one can argue with that. You also get the liner notes, etc. If you can get a good deal on an full album you want through Amazon go for it.

As far as the single song thing.... you've already outlined the best reasons to use iTMS. It's a song you will probably get sick of after 20-30 plays which means you probably are listening to closely... so quality isn't really you're big thing there. It will cost you 1/10th the price of the full CD (to throw your numbers back at you:P)

So unless you are okay with pirating the single, you should use iTMS for it. For full albums you should buy the CD.

People who are into downloading lots of music don't care about the same things you do.... they want music to listen to while doing dishes or homework or getting dressed in the morning, ie: quality of sound is not the biggest issue, it has to be 'good enough'. Also these are the kind of people who get a cd and rarely if ever look at the liner or case more than twice... it has no value.

I suggest you try a download of a single you heard on the radio and want to hear again sometime... just try it, for 99 cents you can try it. You might find it fills in that niche for you.

[Sailfish]

Ok Microsoft is bitching because their propriety WMA is not supported and millions of PC users are going to convert their existing WMA files to MP3/AIFF/etc. to use the iTunes and iPod.

And they are upset because Apple has made a serious breach into their territory with a Mac like interface designed to get them used to how we do things. Not to mention all the website traffic when they have questions or problems.

www.wma-mp3.com

Eventually someone is going to create a ACC to MP3/AIFF/etc converter.

DRM to Microsoft is a tool of control, subjection and dominance.

DRM to Apple is just something to keep the RIAA happy, they know it's not going to work in the long run, the object is to get people to buy rather than steal music like a thief.

Apple accepting WMA=accepting Microsoft's control and subjection. Very Anti-Apple.

I'm building quite a large ACC collection, rightfully paying artists for their creative work because their efforts make the world a happier place.

Eventually I would like to convert it all to a high quality universal format for connivence, and it's my music anyway.

With WMA it's Microsoft's music. Snitching on me every-time I have a internet connection.

"Yes, Microsoft I moved and bought a new computer thus the music got transfered, no I don't want to buy Windows XP, no I don't want a subscription to PCWorld, yes my wife and children are fine, are you threatening me?"

[Master Atrus]

All I can say about Apple's iTunes for Windows is "it is about time!" I have been using for Apple for nearly four years now and haven't looked back, however when I am forced to use a WinTel Box I have to admit I do not like any of the available music programs. Thank you Apple!:D

[Master Atrus]

One other thing I forget to mention goes along with one of the other posts I read. Microsoft is complaining because that is what they do for one, and for two because Apple is finally, after 10 years, re-entering the fight they began years ago with Windows.

Microsoft flat stole the Macintosh Operating System and designed Windows. The only thing they lost in the Windows 95 suit was that they couldn't call the Trash, "Trash" it had to be recycle bin and two the default location for the Trash could not be in the lower right corner.

Now Apple is re-entering the fight by showing the other 90% of the market that, Apple isn't just for geeks and rich people. Apple builds the easiest and most cutting edge Personal Computer Products. Go Apple and it is about time that everyone else, "Thinks Different!"

[uberman42]

...when we get to see Pepsi Commercials with Britney Spears dancing around with an iPod, stopping, pulling off the cap of Pepsi Twist bottle, looking at the cap, going to her G5 Powerbook (which will be released by february after Macworld SF), and entering in the code in ITMS to redeem her free song. Song downloaded... "Cry me a River" by Justin Timberlake. Now that's marketing...

[yamabushi]

I rather like buying CDs and ripping to WAV. I prefer the high quality sound of WAV to MP3 or WMA. Only problem is file size but...no problem with a 20GB iPod. Still about 400 songs. That's still over a day of constant playtime before I have to hear the same song twice.:D

Hmm...40GB for 800 songs.....

[mathematician]

The Nokia 5510 Mobile Phone supports MP3 and protected (!) AAC.

See http://www.nokia.com/nokia/0,8764,659,00.html

Has anybody tested iTMS protected AAC on the 5510?

How compatible are MusicMatch DRM WMA with BuyMusic DRM WMA with other Hardware?

[Sabenth]

highly highly amusing all of this not just because i now have iTunes on 2 systems both of which seem to work just fine and dandy but because in this day and age i have a upteen diffrent music apps all able to play diffrent formats

aac mp3 vog ogg wav aiff wma etc cda i can also use most of them all on each system iChoose iTunes over wmp any day for audio seeming iTunes dont do DVD PLAYBACK iam stuck with WMP because my Mac dosnt do DVD not till i buy a new e Mac at least or what ever comes first then i can go sod windows aac and mp3 cant tell the diffrence in audio most of the time as for this crap about limited options of playing files name me the most famouse file in the world todate . MP3

Granted most pc users dont know what AAC files are hell i didnt know what it was till i got iTunes and it dont make my life any better or worse just gives me another choice .

Windows copies and copies gives all this crap about making copies of it stuff yet here they are coping there nearest rival Apple..

iPod is the way to go stuff the others there all to big and ugly as far as i am concrned and beshides theres nothing finer to use for djing 2 Pods and a mixer lovely... oh and vinyl

[panphage]

Here is the real magic of iTunes for windows: Convergence.

Let me explain. prior to now, a windows user who wanted to burn a CD needed Nero, Easy CD creator, or some other dedicated CD burning utility. Now, if they wanted to copy a cd the burner proggie could handle that. But what if they wanted to rip a copy of the CD music onto their hard drive to play later? Well, you need AudioGrabber. I'm sure there are other rippers out there, but it's been too long and I was happy with AudioGrabber, which you have to pay cash money for if you want to rip an entire cd in one go. NOW, if you want to PLAY any of that music, whether it's on the CD or ripped into MP3s, you need YET ANOTHER program, Windows Media Player, CD Player, WinAmp, etc. So there's at least three programs, one of which has no free (as in beer) alternative that I am aware of. Got an iPod? Oops, you HAVE to use MusicMatch (or EphPod, which is actually a smashingly good proggie) so maybe if you're used to WinAmp you have to learn a new program, or you could JUST use MM for the pod functions and stay with your favorite player...theres ANOTHER program you have to keep installed and know how to use and troubleshoot.

Now here come iTunes, a FREE (as in beer) software that:
1. Plays CDs
2. Plays MP3s, WAVs, and AACs (did I miss any? Probably, these are the three I use)
3. Will RIP a CD to the harddrive in MP3 or AAC with a variety of qualities to choose from.
4. Can BURN music off the hard drive to a CD.
5. Handles your iPod pretty %#@*in' good. I think I like EphPod better on the whole, or maybe I mean EphPod has definitely got some features Apple could learn from, but anyway, iTunes Windows speaks damn fluent iPod.
6. Has a wicked good Music Download Service BUILT RIGHT IN. No membership fees. No contracts. Least restrictive DRM in the industry.

Now THAT is a recipe for an insane success. The only problem I forsee is that Windows users really are used to the abuse. iTunes might creep them out by working too well and doing to many useful things w/o being a major pain in the ass.

[kettle]

Originally posted by racolvin
Micrososoft and WMA format can kiss my ease-of-use-loving arse. I may even be a Mac user by this time next year but I can guarantee I'll be a proud 40G iPod owner by Christmas of this year.

I just wanted to see that in bold text.:p

[reedm007]

Originally posted by mathematician
The Nokia 5510 Mobile Phone supports MP3 and protected (!) AAC.

See http://www.nokia.com/nokia/0,8764,659,00.html

Wow, that's a great catch! Anyone have this phon and can comment?

I wanted to add my 2 cents, and to re-comment again on how it is AAC not ACC. It's "Advanced Audio Codec" -- AAC. (this is a general comment for the forum)

Here's the big problem I see:

On a Mac, I can play my iTMS AAC file in QuickTime player, iMovie, iPhoto, anything, it all works seamlessly. That's how it is for WMA on Windows. AAC on windows literally *only* plays in one program: iTunes. Yes it works with the iPod, and yes you can burn CDs and re-rip them (at a loss), but one of the huge components of "FairPlay", which is that you can use your own purchased music however you want, is missing on the Windows side... and it does suck for them. What if I think iTMS is cool, but I'd rather use WinAmp? Windows people love "skins" -- iTunes has no support for that. iTunes for Windows is pretty dang slow... there are a variety of reasons why someone might choose another jukebox. I think, in that case, we'd all agree choice is good and, as much as Apple wants us to believe, iTunes is not the "be all and end all" of Music jukeboxes. It's a great app, but it's not necessarily for everyone.

But so right now you have *no* choice but to use iTunes, and iTunes only for protected AAC. You can't use them in Windows Movie Maker or for slideshows or anything else. Wouldn't that kind of feel "restricting" and, on the surface, make it seem like MS was offering you the better option with WMA?

Kind of backwards, but it makes some sense.

[Belly-laughs]

Only slightly biased.

[kettle]

Originally posted by reedm007
But so right now you have *no* choice but to use iTunes, and iTunes only for protected AAC. You can't use them in Windows Movie Maker or for slideshows or anything else. Wouldn't that kind of feel "restricting" and, on the surface, make it seem like MS was offering you the better option with WMA?

You have a choice of good quality supporting products (iTunes, iPod) or you rent. The need to have these restrictions, allows a person to "own" their copy of the music.

If these restrictions did not exist, iTunes Music Store would not exist. You would have no "choice" but to rent your online music. The recording industry would have to wait before "selling" music in a downloadable format.

There maybe a hope for a more multimedia usage of protected AAC, if iLife was sold as a windoze product. I'm not sure this would be a good thing, it would just be the good reason to stay on a windoze box.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by panphage
Here is the real magic of iTunes for windows: Convergence.

Let me explain. prior to now, a windows user who wanted to burn a CD needed Nero, Easy CD creator, or some other dedicated CD burning utility. Now, if they wanted to copy a cd the burner proggie could handle that. But what if they wanted to rip a copy of the CD music onto their hard drive to play later? Well, you need AudioGrabber. I'm sure there are other rippers out there, but it's been too long and I was happy with AudioGrabber, which you have to pay cash money for if you want to rip an entire cd in one go. NOW, if you want to PLAY any of that music, whether it's on the CD or ripped into MP3s, you need YET ANOTHER program, Windows Media Player, CD Player, WinAmp, etc. So there's at least three programs, one of which has no free (as in beer) alternative that I am aware of. Got an iPod? Oops, you HAVE to use MusicMatch (or EphPod, which is actually a smashingly good proggie) so maybe if you're used to WinAmp you have to learn a new program, or you could JUST use MM for the pod functions and stay with your favorite player...theres ANOTHER program you have to keep installed and know how to use and troubleshoot.

Now here come iTunes, a FREE (as in beer) software that:
1. Plays CDs
2. Plays MP3s, WAVs, and AACs (did I miss any? Probably, these are the three I use)
3. Will RIP a CD to the harddrive in MP3 or AAC with a variety of qualities to choose from.
4. Can BURN music off the hard drive to a CD.
5. Handles your iPod pretty %#@*in' good. I think I like EphPod better on the whole, or maybe I mean EphPod has definitely got some features Apple could learn from, but anyway, iTunes Windows speaks damn fluent iPod.
6. Has a wicked good Music Download Service BUILT RIGHT IN. No membership fees. No contracts. Least restrictive DRM in the industry.


Aside from the music download service compatible with the iPod (which you just can't get anywhere aside from iTMS), both MusicMatch (free crippleware) and Windows Media Player (free crippleware included with every copy of Windows) include all the above functions. WMP doesn't rip to MP3 by default; you have to pay $10 to buy a plugin from InterVideo or the like to enable that functionality. MM does, however, just slower than your CD will rip.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by reedm007
But so right now you have *no* choice but to use iTunes, and iTunes only for protected AAC. You can't use them in Windows Movie Maker or for slideshows or anything else. Wouldn't that kind of feel "restricting" and, on the surface, make it seem like MS was offering you the better option with WMA?

Kind of backwards, but it makes some sense.

Can you use WMA/p files (protected, as in bought from BuyMusic or MusicMatch) in Windows Movie Maker or any of the real movie editting programs? My understanding is that you can not.

In contrast, at least QuickTime provides the hooks to use FairPlay in any other program. Not sure if existing apps use those hooks (probably not), but it's all there for other apps to tie into. Even on Windows.

[mathematician]

Originally posted by reedm007
Here's the big problem I see:

On a Mac, I can play my iTMS AAC file in QuickTime player, iMovie, iPhoto, anything, it all works seamlessly. That's how it is for WMA on Windows. AAC on windows literally *only* plays in one program: iTunes.

Are you shure? As far as I know the AAC encoding and decoding as well as the DRM (FairPlay/protected AAC) ist part of QuickTime. On a Mac any application that uses QuickTime can play protected AAC (this is why iMovie can do so). I believe that it is the same on a PC. Try playing your protected AAC with the QuickTime player please.

[greenfruit]

Originally posted by racolvin
As I continue to use the software, I have now found another annoying thing ...

Users on another computer who are sharing your library (via Rendezvous), can't make their own playlists that reference your library. Dunno why that is but its incredibly annoying.

I've already sent that in as a feature request. Is this something you Mac folks can already do?

that is because it just streams the music. If you could actually copy the playlists (and therefore the music) from another itunes Apple would have problems from the RIAA.

Of course if you mean just a link, like an alias, then that could be a good idea but if their IP address changed then itd probably break anyway.

Oh yes, id i think all this talk of AAC files from iTMS being playable on iPods forgets that some people dont want portable mp3 players and would be happy with a home jukebox they can stream to any machine.

Ive installed itunes for win on a few PCs at work and were all listening to each others music (I use a Mac btw)

Id be interested to see a graph of the sales at iTMS and downloads of itunes for the first 24 hours after iTunes for Win was released

[plasticparadox]

I just wanted to point out that an iPod isn't required to listen to music from the iTunes store on a portable device. Hasn't anyone heard of MiniDisc?

[w0nt0n]

Just thought I would send you over a screen grab of iTunes for Windows.

[tcmcam]

Right now, this is kind of entertaining. Microsoft and Apple are battling over competing "OPEN" yet really closed standards.

Let's face it, the driving force for the Music Store right now is iPod. iPod is the coolest thing, tons of 'em are sold, and that makes the Music Store the popular choice.

MSFT is trying to make a technical argument that they may be more "open" and have more "choice", but they also realize they don't have the cool hardware, they don't make it, and their 3rd parties are not cutting it.

Also, let's set this straight:
- AAC (non-protected, open standard by Dolby Labs)
- WMA (not protected, submitted to standards body, not truly open, but very available).

BUT......

As soon as Apple adds FairPlay to AAC and MSFT makes "Encrypted" WMA, both of those formats are closed.

Apple would be wise to get other people to support the FairPlay AAC spec, that would throw a real wrench at MSFT.

Depending on whose Kool-Aid you drink, you're going to believe one company or the other.

[Potus]

Do WinDoze owners care about simplicity of use? Elegant design? Quality? I think they've been conned into clunky chunky stuff. So that perhaps iTunes and iPods aren't appealing to them?

I do have a friend with a Sony Vaio: sweeeeet!

[sparks9]

Originally posted by Steve M

The only limitation is that you can't play music from Napster 2.0, MusicMatch, or the other services. And I'm willing to bet that iTunes and iPod will be playing WMA files within the next few months...


I disagree. I don't think the iPod will ever support wma. Why should it? Apple has chosen the format for their music store (aac). They are not going to re-rip all the music again to wma, that's for sure. And having 2 sound formats in a store so you'd have to choose wouldn't be very Apple-like userfriendly.

[greenfruit]

that doesnt stop them supporting it on the ipod, after all you can also play mp3, wav, aiff etc on it, but you can only buy AAC from the store (and whatever audiobooks are).

That being said, i doubt theyll support it but i do think it would be a good idea if they did. Although presumably MS would have to agree to Apple licensing it.

[mathematician]

Excuse me, but supporting WMA (unprotected WMA) on an iPod would be a very stupid move. If Apple would like to give support to USERS of WMA it would just include WMA transcoding in iTunes, i.e. if you want to have audio which is in WMA on your iPod, iTunes would convert it to AAC. (This could even be done in background).

By this Apple would reduce the amount of WMA files and increase the amount of AAC files.

Obviously, this is what Microsoft did many times, however they did it with cheap and much worse "replacements" (here I believe that AAC is equivalent to WMA and protected AAC ist better than encrypted WMA). Example: internet Explorer versus Netscape: Microsoft first produces an exact copy (from a functional point of view) and gives it away for free or bundled, then it adds crap to make it incompatible.

PS: I liked the ending of the presentation, when Steve Jobs thanked Peter and the others. And mentioned that they love what they do. Considering WMA I only see $$$ in Microsoft eyes (of course, Apple is greedy too, but it they seem care about their followers - see OS X / Darwin, which is great!)

[dongmin]

it's funny how all the talk is focussed on iTunes/iTMS while it should really be about the iPod. I read somewhere that Apple makes about 10 cents on each song after all the costs are factored in. So even if Apple sells 100 million songs this year (which would be an amazing year), they still only make $10 million in profit.

The iPod, on the other hand, probably nets around 30% profit per unit. If Apple sells 2 millioin of these (500,000 a quarter), at $400 a pop, then we're talking around $120 mil in profits. See why Apple's calling iTunes for Windows the 'trojan horse'?

As others have noted, iTunes/iTMS for windows gives PC users the complete, integrated solution for their music. It's all about making the iPod experience that much better. We should also not forget how much this does to introduce PC users to the Apple experience. Just like how Sony was the hot commodity brand in the 80s (and 90s?), Apple could become the next chic brand for high-end gadgets.

Finally, let's go over some Steve projections:

•30 million songs downloaded by Mac users, which represent roughly 5% of the market.
•70 million songs by PC users, 95% of the market. Steve doesn't care about 'owning' the PC market. He just wants to have a healthy presence and for Apple to be there for the high-end users who're willing to dish out $400-500 for an mp3 player. People make this out to be some Windows vs. Mac debate, but it's not. Steve is actually a lot more strategic and selective about the battles he picks.

edit: changed '$10 cents' to '10 cents'

[usingmac]

I think what will happen is people will hear what Microsoft is saying and think, what the hell are they talking about. Microsoft really thinks we are stupid. There is a credibility point here. Why would Volkswagen and Pepsi bet their marketing and partner with Apple. This means Apple is perceived good and people want to be associated with them. What Microsoft is saying is counter logic. People, smell the funk. It permeats from Redmond.......... By the way, the picture of the guy in the article from Microsoft, is it me or are his eyes all red like he has been losing sleep? Itunes launch?

[mrogers9]

I am a Microsoft/Dell user who downloaded iTunes Thursday night and have now purchased over 50 songs. I have never before used such a clean and well polished app, it makes me wonder why I have been using Microsoft for so long. I have been looking into Macs for a few months now after having purchased Windows XP and then having the supposedly "rock solid" OS crash multiple times. So as a previous poster said, I think I will look into getting an iPod for Christmas and when the PowerBooks begin using the G5 processors I just might "switch" permanently. Now if only Apple could come out with a killer productivity suite…

One question, when I eventually get a Mac, I will be able to transfer the songs I have purchased thus far to that system, right? I see no reason why I couldn’t.

[usingmac]

I think what will happen is people will hear what Microsoft's Fester is saying and think, what the hell are they talking about. Microsoft really thinks we are stupid. There is a credibility point here. Why would Volkswagen and Pepsi bet their marketing and partner with Apple. This means Apple is perceived good and people want to be associated with them. What Microsoft is saying is counter logic. People, smell the funk. It permeats from Redmond.......... By the way, the picture of the guy in the article from Microsoft, is it me or are his eyes all red like he has been losing sleep? Itunes launch?

[iMeowbot]

Originally posted by Sailfish
DRM to Microsoft is a tool of control, subjection and dominance.

DRM to Apple is just something to keep the RIAA happy, they know it's not going to work in the long run, the object is to get people to buy rather than steal music like a thief.

Oh, don't be fooled, Apple can play the lock-in game as well as the rest of them.

Make no mistake about it, iTunes Music Store exists for one reason and one reason only: to sell iPods. Apple are being very clear about that. (http://news.com.com/2100-1041-5092559.html?tag=nl)

Are there going to be players other than iPod that can use Apple's protected AAC files? I'm sure that will happen promptly after Apple resumes allowing Mac clones and ships OS X for Intel PCs.

[arn]

Originally posted by mrogers9
One question, when I eventually get a Mac, I will be able to transfer the songs I have purchased thus far to that system, right? I see no reason why I couldn’t.

Yep. You can copy them over, and "authorize" them on your new computer.

If you are getting rid of your old computer, remember to deauthorize it before getting rid of it.

Beyond that, you can have any mix (Mac or PC) of 3 computers authorized to play your songs.

arn

[wdlove]

Microsoft must actually have concerns about loosing business or they would not have made that comment. They are in the position of being so large the it is hard for them to change. Microsoft should look to Japan when it comes to copying, look at there economy.

[ginjg]

[i]Eventually someone is going to create a ACC to MP3/AIFF/etc converter.
[/B]
iTunes can already do this for aac, just not with iTMS DRM'd songs.
That is unless you are burning to CD – then you ca nset your preferences to burn the iTMS songs to either aiff or mp3.

[ginjg]

Originally posted by panphage
[B3. Will RIP a CD to the harddrive in MP3 or AAC with a variety of qualities to choose from.
[/B]
or if you don't want any loss from your cd it can rip to hard drive in AIFF

[dilleet]

I have an applescript which, creates a template for front, back and edge graphics and text automatically, opening the template in Appleworks, it should also work with Word. I will do some research and locate the source. The problem will probably be that these iTunes scripts work on Macs only. Sorry, but now you WinPeeps know how it feels
The scripts are from Apple:

http://www.apple.com/applescript/itunes/

[Sayhey]

Microsoft maybe right and iTunes may fail. If it happens it will be because a monopoly used its power illegally to force new markets to adopt its inferior standards and products (ie windows media). At least right now Apple has made it clear that it will give Microsoft a run for its money in this new market. I'd love to see if Microsoft has contracts with other music sites. Anyone want to bet they forbid the use of anything but WMA?

Another very good thing about this move to windows iTunes is that it will get Quicktime on many, many more computers. That may help in convincing web sites who don't now do so to also use Quicktime.

[X86BSD]

Originally posted by Sayhey
Microsoft maybe right and iTunes may fail. If it happens it will be because a monopoly used its power illegally to force new markets to adopt its inferior standards and products (ie windows media). At least right now Apple has made it clear that it will give Microsoft a run for its money in this new market. I'd love to see if Microsoft has contracts with other music sites. Anyone want to bet they forbid the use of anything but WMA?

I think that is a standard clause in any contract MS signs. Which is what got them in such hot water the first 2 times with the government. Well one of the reasons. I could be wrong.

[Marianco]

I have three PCs and five Macs in my household.

I can now use iTunes in all of them. I can store the MP3s and AACs on one and stream them to the others. This is fantastic!

And iTunes and Quicktime 6.4 are FREE.

The trojan horse is actually Quicktime! iTunes for Windows installs Quicktime into the PC. This will grow Quicktime's/MPEG-4's share tremendously as a multimedia standard!

Note that Quicktime use to contain the entire MacOS programming toolbox - even on the Windows version. It was as close to creating a MacOS on Windows as Apple has ever done.

With the FREE iTunes installing Quicktime to all PCs, Apple has opened the possibility to MPEG-4 being THE Standard for video distribution.

Now that Apple has brought in Audiobooks into the mix with iTunes, it is easy to envision bringing in MPEG-4. In fact, the music videos you can watch on Quicktime 6 and from iTunes are already in MPEG-4 format!!!! Music videos can eventually be replaced by MOVIES!

[peterjhill]

I think it is brilliant that apple made the pepsi deal while releasing itunes for pc. How many windows users are going to try out itunes so that they can get a free song? Plenty. With the ad on the superbowl, they are going to get a ton of exposure. It is brilliant marketing.

[iPost]

These players won't play songs purchased from Apple's Music Store. Apple is using their own DRM-version of AAC, which is not the same as "normal" unprotected AAC. So, you really are locked into the iPod as your only portable player if you purchase songs from Apple's Store. Also, don't expect to see an iTunes AAC-to-MP3 converter EVER. Apple would be breaking their licensing agreement with the record labels if they offered such a feature. You can burn a CD and then rip it back into MP3 or unprotected AAC, but you'll lose audio quality in the process.

Personally, I don't see why it would be such a crime for the iPod to support WMA. Ideally, the iPod should be able to play whatever music formats a user may have in their music collection. The mantra should be: "You've got music? Play it on an iPod."

Otherwise, Apple may be making the same mistake Sony made in its choice of Beta over the competing VHS in video tape formats years ago.


Originally posted by maxtrax
Looks like there are already a few AAC/MP3 players out there staring at like $80. So what the hell is MS talking about, closed system ONLY if you have an iPod. I really can't stand them....

click here to see the list I found in 5 seconds through Google (http://www.dealtime.com/xPP-MP3_and_Digital_Media_Players-aac-~S-213)

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by Le Big Mac
Now, Apple has two choices: license Fairplay or not. I say they should license it. First, didn't they learn their lesson with the mac OS?

When they licensed the Mac OS, Apple almost died.

Originally posted by iMeowbot
It belongs to Veridisc, a division of Circle Group Holdings.

Veridisc seem to have forgotten to renew their domain registration and some pr0n site grabbed it, but you can get to their info from the parent company's site at http://www.crgq.com/HTML/eMentorComp.html, or a direct link to Fairplay at http://64.244.235.240/

Are you sure that's the same thing?

Originally posted by webmasterkai
Players around $100 usually hold 64MB worth of songs. About 80 min of music.

If someone wants a cheap option buy a hundred 80 min CDR's for $20 and use them in any cd player. :D

The cost of a CD burner, the CD-R's, and the CD burner is more than $100. Then again, if you already have a CD burner, it's less. And it's a better deal.

[pascalpp]

that picture of him was so tempting, i couldn't resist:

http://www.pascal.com/misc/fester/fester.html

[mathematician]

1. Was here a few posts ago:

The Nokia 5510 Mobile Phone supports MP3 and protected (!) AAC.

See http://www.nokia.com/nokia/0,8764,659,00.html

- or it is a typo on the page.

2. AAC with DRM is part of QuickTime. Thus it will be available soon on devices supporting QT 6.4 or greater. Such devices are:
- Mac OS X machines (you can play AAC/p without iTunes)
- Windows XP machines

I hope that - since mobile phones will use QuickTime for 3GP - that mobile phones will support AAC/p soon.

Sure, Apple makes money with the iPod and not with the store, but do you really belive that Apple does all this to make money with the iPod? The iPod will be a hit this year, next year and maybe another year, but then...

Burning AAC/p to CD will not lose quality, I assume. So converting AAC/p to AIFF is possible without loss of quality. I believe that in 5-10 years they will disable this "unlimited burning to unprotected media".

[iHack]

Originally posted by pascalpp
that picture of him was so tempting, i couldn't resist:

http://www.pascal.com/misc/fester/fester.html

OMG... this is creepy.

What is really creepy is that the picture actually is more unsettling before the smeagol effect kicks in.

Great job, though!

M.

[iMeowbot]

Originally posted by mathematician
The Nokia 5510 Mobile Phone supports MP3 and protected (!) AAC.

It's not the same thing. Nokia uses LockStream (http://www.lockstream.com) for DRM, not FairPlay. This is one of really annoying parts of MPEG 4, it provides hooks for DRM but not a standard method .

(In fairness, this whole DRM thing is still fairly new and shaking out, so it was probably too early to standardize at that level.)

2. AAC with DRM is part of QuickTime. Thus it will be available soon on devices supporting QT 6.4 or greater. Such devices are:
- Mac OS X machines (you can play AAC/p without iTunes)
- Windows XP machines

I hope that - since mobile phones will use QuickTime for 3GP - that mobile phones will support AAC/p soon.

Few cell phone vendors are using Windows (even CE), and of course none run OS X, so it's not easy to guess what parts of QT might end up in mainstream phones :/

Sure, Apple makes money with the iPod and not with the store, but do you really belive that Apple does all this to make money with the iPod? The iPod will be a hit this year, next year and maybe another year, but then...

...there can be high-capacity models that look more like they belong to a stereo system, players to go with iMovie and iPhoto, and so on.

Also, the hard drives in those units do have finite lifetimes. They'll eventually need to be replaced -- perhaps with a beefier model that can hold 10,000 uncompressed songs. Fibre to the home is finally starting to get deployed, and Apple did experiment with that sort of content delivery before the infrastructure was really there...

[edenwaith]

Instructions:
1. Open mouth.
2. Insert foot.

Some of these marketing people would probably make good politicians by the way they conveniently 'forget' the other side of the story or key arguments. The way that Dave Fester talked, it sounded like iTunes is only good for getting songs through the iTMS. Gee, wouldn't it be GREAT if iTunes could also play CDs, MP3s, and rip tracks from a CD to your hard drive as an MP3! Wow, that would be great...oh, yeah, it already does that. I guess that means iTunes isn't as gimped as the article tried to make it sound like. Sheesh. Get your facts straight first, then we'll talk.

[Phil Of Mac]

The power to make Microsoft make idiots of themselves™

[zim]

All I have to say, been away for a week so sorry if this is not the right place, is that I just downloaded the new iTunes and wow, apple has really listened to people. The new options and updated look really enhance the experience, I can't wait for future releases.

As for WMP vs AAC, I feel that it is sort of like expecting the mac version of photoshop to run on a windows os, you are buying a license and it is non transferable, when using iTunes on the windows, you are in a mac like environment, iTunes for windows is very non conforming to the windows style. Consumers do have an option, there is no reason why they can not use both the WMP services and the iTunes service, I know many iTunes users, supporters, that do not even have iPods, they just play through their system.

I feel that Apple is doing right, they are including others, even if it is pepsi, I don't drink soda, I think they should get Ben and Jerry's involved.

[Prom1]

I think that this is great for Apple.

Um someone mentioned mp4 for video content on cellphones. The current standard enjoyed by GSM/GPRS/cdma (all versions) I forgot which one but currently that standard as well as what QuickTime 6.0 and above can do is being used by NTT DoCoMo in Japan.

[Potus]

Originally posted by zim


I feel that Apple is doing right, they are including others, even if it is pepsi, I don't drink soda, I think they should get Ben and Jerry's involved.

I think the Ben and Jerry's idea is brilliant! iCe cream and iPods and iTunes: what's not to like?

[jail]

This pepsi deal is just amazing!

even if hell freezes over again and they don't kick off big in the pc world, apple will still be able to say "over one hundred million songs downloaded"

whoever came up with that idea deserves the world
-jail

[stuartea]

I'm a little confused. Are people trying to make out that iTunes only supports the iPod? or iPod/iTunes won't support WMA? Or the iTMS aac format isn't supported by everyone yet?

Though isn't aac/mp4 and open source format where microsofts isn't?

I have an iPod now but for over a year used my Rio 600 quite happily with iTunes without any problems. The Rio also could take WMA files.

[greenfruit]

i believe its ONLY the iTMS AAC files which can only play on the ipod, not other mp3 players as of yet.

theres nothing to stop you burning them to audio cd then ripping them back as regular AAC or MP3 files tho.

seems pretty much like a non-argument to me.

[matthew24]

I have made two choices:

1) Apple: Yes :D ;) :p :cool:

2) MS: NO :D ;) :p :cool:

[soosy]

Hmmm on Windows if I buy a wma from musicmatch or buymusic I can't play it in iTunes. If I buy an aac from iTMS, I can't play it in MusicMatch Jukebox. Both seem like pretty closed systems to me.

WMA downloads available on more devices? I went and looked at what devices could actually play downloadable music from MusicMatch and BuyMusic. Mostly just Rio and Creative Nomad devices. The selection isn't as big as they are making it out to be. I'll take my choice and choose an iPod, thankyaverymuch.

[Sayhey]

Well, we have the first stats on the use of Windows iTunes. Check out Apple's press release:

CUPERTINO, California—October 20, 2003—Apple® today announced that Windows users have downloaded more than one million copies of its new iTunes™ for Windows digital jukebox software in just three and a half days since its launch last Thursday, and over one million songs have been purchased and downloaded by iTunes users in the same period.

“iTunes users have purchased over one million songs in the first three and a half days since our launch last Thursday, which compares with one million songs in the first seven days when we introduced the original iTunes for Mac users last April,” said Steve Jobs, Apple’s CEO. “We're off to a great start, and our competition isn't even out of the starting gates yet.”

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2003/oct/20itunes.html

Doesn't look like a failure just yet, does it Mr. Fester?

[NHWolf71]

Maybe I'm missing something but iTunes AND the iPod seem to support WMA. Not only can you rip files from a CD into WMA format, but you can convert previously imported MP3s as well as play the WMA files on the iPod. What am I missing here?

[w0nt0n]

you sure? are yo using the win xp or 2k version of itunes? maybe quicktime 6.4 for windows picks up on your wma codec. are you really sure, i'm sure someone else would have noticed this by now.

[the_dalex]

The incredible irony of Fester's statement is that Microsoft is currently being investigated by the federal government for anti-competitive behavior in the online music realm.

It seems that Windows XP has a "shop for music online" link that opens Internet Explorer and goes to a Microsoft-operated website with links to certain online music resellers. Even if you have another browser selected as your default, it still launches IE against your wishes.

To Microsoft, "choice" means you get to choose anything you want, from a selection determined by Microsoft themselves. They want their finger in every single pie... if they aren't getting a cut of somebody's profits, they'll lean on them, and hard.

[soosy]

Originally posted by NHWolf71
Maybe I'm missing something but iTunes AND the iPod seem to support WMA. Not only can you rip files from a CD into WMA format, but you can convert previously imported MP3s as well as play the WMA files on the iPod. What am I missing here?

Are you confusing WMA with WAV?

[Le Big Mac]

HEre's why Microsoft may be right:

Linky (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&e=2&u=/ap/20031021/ap_on_hi_te/microsoft_antitrust)
(Microsoft may be violating antitrust consent decree by steering windows users to MS's own music store)

[tpjunkie]

They're just up to their same old tricks

[Wardofsky]

I don't understand why they think this, why can't they just be friends? (http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playlistId=105721&selectedItemId=105719)

Unless Microsoft bring out a music store, a decent player, a decent portable player, a photo printing service, I don't think they can comment...

[Sabenth]

because if they were friends we would have nothing to complain about??

Youngest barister how young ?? toataly of the subject i know

[Wardofsky]

Originally posted by Sabenth
Youngest barister how young ?? toataly of the subject i know

Don't worry, I'll get back on the topic after.
I'm 14 and I took one of the coffee courses down here in Melbourne, I passed and so far I'm the youngest qualified barrista in Melbourne.
-----

Getting Back On Topic (aka GBOT)
Yes, true, Microsoft and Apple are just two little friends who always fight, it's perhaps what keeps them from killing each other.

[Sabenth]

Intresting just thought id ask part of melbourne you in Croydon here but hell with that...

If they were to be real friends things might be very very very diffrent in the OS world AQUA IN WINDOWS ???? dont think so but then again never thought id see some iLife software on PC Either

23 Fencer + MR iT .. YOU NAME IT I DONT WANT TO FIX IT.. lol

[Flowbee]

Originally posted by Sabenth
Youngest barister how young ?? toataly of the subject i know

I think you're confusing "barrista" with "barister." :D

[encro]

Originally posted by Sabenth
Intresting just thought id ask part of melbourne you in Croydon here but hell with that...


How is Croydon the red center of the earth?:p

I would have thought Ayers Rock ;)

I'm in Bendigo

[j33pd0g]

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5095039.html


Maybe this will teach M$ users that the Apple brand is a great investment.

From zdnet.com: Apple Computer said it has released an updated version of its iTunes program intended to fix bugs encountered by some Windows users.

The company posted version 4.1.1 of iTunes to its Web site on Wendesday. The version aims to remedy some initial glitches with the jukebox software that Apple released last week. As previously reported, some Windows users were reporting bugs with the software, including a problem that caused some Windows 2000 Professional machines to freeze after installing iTunes.

[Sabenth]

well i didnt mean Croydon was the red center i know ula ru is the red center seeming iam english and all and flew over what looked to be red land every were when i first came here thats why.. my location is as it is Croydon on the other hand is lovely lttle fun packed place??

[Dahl]

Bump!

The title of this thread looks silly now. :D

[phonic pol]

Fester is talking rubbish. The problem with windows systems is there's too much choice everywhere. You get choice where you really don't want it. That's what's so nice about the Mac - it tells you what you need to know and just lets you get on and enjoy the experience. Windows gives you so much unnecessary rubbish to think about that you forget what you originally wanted to do; As a result your work is less creative and you feel constrained! There are several key reasons why itunes and the ipod have been so successful and it’s logical that Microsoft completely misses the point as they continue to vastly overcomplicate things and piss people off!

[Nik_Doof]

This thread is quite amusing in today's context :)

[ph8te]

Microsoft seems to have a small problem... The European Union is giving MS hassles about their Media Player, and I think the comments from MS are just "sulky" remarks, because they know that iTunes and the iTMS are the leader in a segment of the market that MS thought they would own.

Personally I think Microsoft should be very careful about their remarks. The company is alienating users and to constantly make snide remarks about apple is going to do them in. How many viruses have come out recently targeting MS servers and MS products? It almost seems that there is a generation of PC-users that use their PC for the sole purpose of sticking it to MS.

Can't we all just live in peace?????