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View Full Version : Dvorak on MBAir and the Apple stock plunge




akadmon
Jan 25, 2008, 01:18 PM
A different look at the Apple drop (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/different-look-apples-stock-drop/story.aspx?guid=%7BFE30F1E6%2DDB46%2D4D38%2D89E9%2D513C2B828881%7D&dist=TQP_Mod_mktwN)



Eidorian
Jan 25, 2008, 01:21 PM
John C. Dvorakô time!

Time for MacRumors to give him page views. I'll agree that MacWorld in general has been lackluster since the Intel Macs of 2006. I didn't expect slow sales of iPhones though.

akadmon
Jan 25, 2008, 01:30 PM
John C. Dvorakô time!

.

What, doesn't anyone care what Dvorak has to say? :eek: The man used to be such an icon in the Mac community. Oh well, kids these days...:rolleyes:

Catch
Jan 25, 2008, 02:11 PM
I like this part:

"This only works when the laptop has as much or more capability than a desktop. The MacBook Air does not."

I'd like to see a laptop with more power than a MacPro!

Regards,

C

PDE
Jan 25, 2008, 02:16 PM
He may be generally negative toward Apple, but I have to agree with one things and that's that there isn't much new about the MBA. It's just beautiful and light. And thin. But what else? The only thing really is gestures and that's cool, but compared to what fingerworks used to make, it's nothing.

ahaxton
Jan 25, 2008, 02:18 PM
He needs to think thinks over more before writing an article like that. The MBA will be a HIT, PERIOD. Stock down, hmm been expected. Product announcements don't bring stock up on the possibility of recession.

IJ Reilly
Jan 25, 2008, 02:18 PM
Citing Dvorak is a great way to be laughed out of the room. The man hasn't had a clue in 20 years.

Vtorch
Jan 25, 2008, 02:36 PM
Citing Dvorak is a great way to be laughed out of the room. The man hasn't had a clue in 20 years.

Huh??? Now that's funny.

So explain why the Apple stock plummet before and after Macworld.

Vtorch
Jan 25, 2008, 02:42 PM
I like this part:

"This only works when the laptop has as much or more capability than a desktop. The MacBook Air does not."

I'd like to see a laptop with more power than a MacPro!

Regards,

C

The year is 2008.....NOT 1998 or even 1988.

Haven't you heard? It is a fact that laptops have outsold and are still outselling desktops. A laptop these days needs more power, power, POWER.

Dvorak is right.

Only professional media people or tech-geeks buy the very expensive MacPro. I am sure the total population of those people in the world are in between 0-1%.

Remember, people not just want laptops, they want desktop replacements. For an severly underpowered and underfeatured, but nice looking Macbook Air.....like I said, Dvorak is right.

airjuggernaut
Jan 25, 2008, 02:46 PM
I opened this thinking that Apple decided to dump QWERTY and go for Dvorak. :P

Catch
Jan 25, 2008, 02:46 PM
The year is 2008.....NOT 1998 or even 1988.

Haven't you heard? It is a fact that laptops have outsold and are still outselling desktops. A laptop these days needs more power, power, POWER.

Dvorak is right.

Only professional media people or tech-geeks buy the very expensive MacPro. I am sure the total population of those people in the world are in between 0-1%.

Remember, people not just want laptops, they want desktop replacements. For an severly underpowered and underfeatured, but nice looking Macbook Air.....like I said, Dvorak is right.

What you said is not what he said... so to speak.

C

Catch
Jan 25, 2008, 02:48 PM
Huh??? Now that's funny.

So explain why the Apple stock plummet before and after Macworld.

Ok... Global markets have fallen sharply on fears of recession in the US. What makes you guys think that Apple shares would be immune to this?

C

DMC-12
Jan 25, 2008, 02:48 PM
dvorak.org/blog

Catch
Jan 25, 2008, 02:50 PM
Remember, people not just want laptops, they want desktop replacements. For an severly underpowered and underfeatured, but nice looking Macbook Air.....like I said, Dvorak is right.

I think this is an utterly useless statement. Apple offers these laptops. Its impossible to provide a light weight with those features. If you want a desktop replacement you can buy one from Apple. Have you heard of the MacBook, and MacBook Pro?

This is not meant for that market... How many times do people have to explain this?

All the MacBook Air has done is to add one more option to Apples already supreme range of laptops.

Regards,

C

elmo151
Jan 25, 2008, 03:00 PM
as usual (lately) Dvorak missed the point. The AirBook is not designed as a primary box. It's a comfortable second box for those who travel or want to carry a limited load. ;)

mashoutposse
Jan 25, 2008, 03:01 PM
Huh??? Now that's funny.

So explain why the Apple stock plummet before and after Macworld.

1) If the drop happened before MacWorld, wouldn't it be logical to surmise that MacWorld had little to do with it?

2) The stock was down before and after MacWorld, but the "plummet" didn't occur until Apple put out an earning forecast ~15% lower than what the market expected. This happened a full week after SJ's keynote.

IJ Reilly
Jan 25, 2008, 03:19 PM
1) If the drop happened before MacWorld, wouldn't it be logical to surmise that MacWorld had little to do with it?

2) The stock was down before and after MacWorld, but the "plummet" didn't occur until Apple put out an earning forecast ~15% lower than what the market expected. This happened a full week after SJ's keynote.

Yes, thank you. It's also worth keeping in mind that the markets are often fueled by emotion -- if you try to figure out why things happens over the short term, you'll go nuts. More often than not, it makes no sense. If you think about it, the concept that AAPL fell in the toilet because Steve Jobs announced a slim laptop is nothing short of ludicrous.

PDE
Jan 25, 2008, 03:20 PM
the underlying assumption here is that thin is more important than additional USB ports, ethernet port, dvd drive and removable battery. If you agree with that, then maybe this is the computer for you. But I still think Apple made a big mistake PERCEPTION-wise by not including an ethernet port and at least two USB ports. These are things that people use all the time and need on the road. If this were priced at $999, it would be fine but at $1799 it's a lot to ask of the customer to go out and buy an ethernet adapter, a superdrive and a USB hub just for some basic connectivity and features, don't you think? It's not about weight either since other manufacturers are able to squeeze a lot into a very small package. It's just about thinness, nothing else.

And then Apple calls it AIR, as if it has some kind of special wireless advantage, when in fact its wireless capabilities are the same as every other laptop out there. the only reason it's AIR is that all the other wired, and often needed, options are gone. Not very impressive in my mind.

I love it and want it because it's so beautifully designed, but it's really too much of a compromise even when I try really hard to justify it and convince myself that i could be satisfied with its limitations.

ahaxton
Jan 25, 2008, 03:22 PM
as usual (lately) Dvorak missed the point. The AirBook is not designed as a primary box. It's a comfortable second box for those who travel or want to carry a limited load. ;)


I'll tell you right now though plenty will be using it as their primary box as many who already own entry level MacBooks too.

For me, design (comfortable use, looks better than a macbook, has a few features that are better than the macbook) and portability are two very important things.

HLdan
Jan 25, 2008, 03:26 PM
What, doesn't anyone care what Dvorak has to say? :eek: The man used to be such an icon in the Mac community. Oh well, kids these days...:rolleyes:

No, because he's just an annoying man that never has anything good to say about Apple. 2 years ago he said that Apple was about to drop OS X and switch over the Windows. He's an idiot and if you want to be his fanboy go right ahead. :p

iSee
Jan 25, 2008, 03:29 PM
What, doesn't anyone care what Dvorak has to say? :eek: The man used to be such an icon in the Mac community. Oh well, kids these days...:rolleyes:

No one cares what he says anymore because he's always saying something blatently stupid.

If he was ever an icon of the Mac community, it was a small black and white icon, with incorrect masking... :p

IJ Reilly
Jan 25, 2008, 03:30 PM
More to the point, Dvorak has been staggeringly wrong on a surprisingly consistent basis. According to him, Apple went out of business ten years ago.

hippo206
Jan 25, 2008, 03:38 PM
1) If the drop happened before MacWorld, wouldn't it be logical to surmise that MacWorld had little to do with it?

2) The stock was down before and after MacWorld, but the "plummet" didn't occur until Apple put out an earning forecast ~15% lower than what the market expected. This happened a full week after SJ's keynote.

Hmmm... according to my iphone stock button, the "plummet" was before the announcement of forecasted earning:eek:

GAS
Jan 25, 2008, 03:41 PM
Huh??? Now that's funny.

So explain why the Apple stock plummet before and after Macworld.

Before: If it was before macworld, how could macworld have affected it?

After:The fears of a recession meant the whole market went down. Not just Apple.

masse
Jan 25, 2008, 03:43 PM
It will flop...or they will update it in 6 months and make it not suck.

Either way its hilarious to listen to a keynote about something so 'thin' and not think of Deuce Bigalo

mashoutposse
Jan 25, 2008, 03:47 PM
Hmmm... according to my iphone stock button, the "plummet" was before the announcement of forecasted earning:eek:

My iPhone shows a pretty sharp dip on the day of -- use the 1w view ;)

IJ Reilly
Jan 25, 2008, 03:52 PM
AAPL has always been a highly volatile stock. Don't expect it to behave like the broader market. In 2007 it appreciated more than ten times faster than the broader measures of the market. It also drops faster than the broader market.

Nibi
Jan 25, 2008, 04:06 PM
More to the point, Dvorak has been staggeringly wrong on a surprisingly consistent basis. According to him, Apple went out of business ten years ago.

Seconded. This guy is a toolbag.

sushi
Jan 25, 2008, 04:09 PM
More to the point, Dvorak has been staggeringly wrong on a surprisingly consistent basis. According to him, Apple went out of business ten years ago.
Mixed emotions about Dvorak.

One thing for sure, is he does what he does for the publicity. The more folks visit his site the more he gets paid me thinks.

MacsAttack
Jan 25, 2008, 04:16 PM
More to the point, Dvorak has been staggeringly wrong on a surprisingly consistent basis. According to him, Apple went out of business ten years ago.

As far as I can tell, his strategy is to say something wild and contentious to generate page hits. Guess that is how he makes a living. I don't read his blogs. i just read the summary on Slashdot and ignore TFA.

Was Apple stock overpriced at $200? Perhaps. Was market expectations inflated? Yes - always is. Is the US economy circling the toilet? Sure looks that way!

But... Apple have a strong product range with good margins. They have a phenomenal platform in the shape of the iPhone and the Touch upon which to build true ultra portable devices to give them a market to expand into as the iPod side of things becomes saturated. Solid growth on their computers side. Sure they ain't predicting such large growth next quarter - but Apple (through not making the quick grab for some phantom market share with a mini-tower that would have lousy margins and other such foolishness) is in far better shape than just about any other company out there.

robrose20
Jan 25, 2008, 04:25 PM
I'll tell you right now though plenty will be using it as their primary box as many who already own entry level MacBooks too.

For me, design (comfortable use, looks better than a macbook, has a few features that are better than the macbook) and portability are two very important things.

MBA will be a bomb.... it will never sell in the numbers needed to be profitable. Overpriced, underpowered, but very sexy looking. I predict apple stock will be less than $100.00 a share by next week.

IJ Reilly
Jan 25, 2008, 04:27 PM
Mixed emotions about Dvorak.

One thing for sure, is he does what he does for the publicity. The more folks visit his site the more he gets paid me thinks.

He drops his pants in public and people look. Such an accomplishment.

If Dvorak was posting here, he'd be called a troll.

Radio Monk33
Jan 25, 2008, 04:28 PM
I like this part:

"This only works when the laptop has as much or more capability than a desktop. The MacBook Air does not."

I'd like to see a laptop with more power than a MacPro!

Regards,

C

Actually, capability =/= power. Capability is an ability to do something, ie be carried to work in a messenger bag. You can't do that with a Mac Pro.

Coatsy
Jan 25, 2008, 04:30 PM
And he's just plain wrong when he says the batteries can't be removed or replaced.

Creibold
Jan 25, 2008, 04:33 PM
The Macbook Air is a great second machine, it's the truth.

People will moan about it not having this and that, then apple will update the Macbook Pro line with all the same spiffyness. Everyone's eyes will then shift to that and all will be right with the world.

Then the Macbook's will be updated, and so on, and so forth.

It will find it's place.

An iMac (family machine) + Macbook Air (portable machine) is a perfect combo.

robrose20
Jan 25, 2008, 04:41 PM
The Macbook Air is a great second machine, it's the truth.

People will moan about it not having this and that, then apple will update the Macbook Pro line with all the same spiffyness. Everyone's eyes will then shift to that and all will be right with the world.

Then the Macbook's will be updated, and so on, and so forth.

It will find it's place.

An iMac (family machine) + Macbook Air (portable machine) is a perfect combo.

Macbook air is not an ultraportable. Same footprint as MB, no one in their right mind would travel without the superdrive (what if something happens and you have to reinstall operating system). You will end up with a bag full of stuff to carry along with your "ultaportable" mac because they didn't include it in the design. Think about it:

No superdrive - System crashes when you are out of town on business are you going to chance not being able to restore the operating system?

Ethernet - Hotel with just wired internet, you need that damn external ethernet port to hook up to network, or worse yet a modem.

Small hard drive - 64 (SSD) to 80 gig??? that will fill up in about 5 minutes with current software so you will have to lug around an extra drive.

1.8 Ghz processir - most apple users change their computers every 5 to 6 years, I guarantee you will not get that kind of life expectancy from this computer.

I admit it is a nice looking machine, and a wonder to look at, but from a practical standpoint it is a bomb.

I guarantee when you travel with this thing you will be carrying more stuff than if you just bought a MB or MB Pro. Its ridiculous.

heatmiser
Jan 25, 2008, 04:44 PM
I guarantee when you travel with this thing you will be carrying more stuff than if you just bought a MB or MB Pro. Its ridiculous.

100% agree with this. When I pack a Macbook, I take the computer and the charger. When you pack an Air, you're going to need more than that if you need full functionality.

robrose20
Jan 25, 2008, 04:51 PM
All that I can say is that I am glad I sold my apple stock before macworld.

hippo206
Jan 25, 2008, 05:17 PM
My iPhone shows a pretty sharp dip on the day of -- use the 1w view ;)

Ah your right, i think monday was MLK day maybe trading had the day off(dunno much about stocks but i know i had the day off work^^).

Coatsy
Jan 25, 2008, 05:27 PM
100% agree with this. When I pack a Macbook, I take the computer and the charger. When you pack an Air, you're going to need more than that if you need full functionality.

Define 'full functionality' for regular travellers.

macjay
Jan 25, 2008, 05:39 PM
What I don't get about Apple's thinking behind the MBA, is that if a 13" MBP had been released instead, it probably would have appealed to many of those now buying the Air, AS WELL AS those in the market for a 13" MBP (although a 13" MBP would have been heavier).

I think the MBA was an ego project for Jobs ("world's thinnest laptop").

HLdan
Jan 25, 2008, 05:58 PM
Macbook air is not an ultraportable. Same footprint as MB, no one in their right mind would travel without the superdrive (what if something happens and you have to reinstall operating system).

Now you are seriously exaggerating. That's ridiculous! How often are people out and about and something happens with their lappy that it requires a system reinstall? Get real! Also since you seem to act like this is all about Apple's Macbook Air you should take a good look at most of the Windows PC manufacturers, they don't give system restore discs hardly anymore.

Sony is the culprit and cheapskate that started all of this and I was afraid Apple might. When you buy a Sony the restore image is on the hard drive so if anything happens what are suppose to do? Well according to Sony they want you to restore from the image on the drive or at last resort burn your own restore disc from the image.

You can do the same with the Macbook, just create a bootable image on your Macbook or your iPod.

Catch
Jan 25, 2008, 06:08 PM
Macbook air is not an ultraportable. Same footprint as MB, no one in their right mind would travel without the superdrive (what if something happens and you have to reinstall operating system). You will end up with a bag full of stuff to carry along with your "ultaportable" mac because they didn't include it in the design. Think about it:

No superdrive - System crashes when you are out of town on business are you going to chance not being able to restore the operating system?

Ethernet - Hotel with just wired internet, you need that damn external ethernet port to hook up to network, or worse yet a modem.

Small hard drive - 64 (SSD) to 80 gig??? that will fill up in about 5 minutes with current software so you will have to lug around an extra drive.

1.8 Ghz processir - most apple users change their computers every 5 to 6 years, I guarantee you will not get that kind of life expectancy from this computer.

I admit it is a nice looking machine, and a wonder to look at, but from a practical standpoint it is a bomb.

I guarantee when you travel with this thing you will be carrying more stuff than if you just bought a MB or MB Pro. Its ridiculous.

You travel with ALL your software in case your machine crashes and you have to do a clean install? Wow... there are so many troubled people out there that you never meet in your every day life! I love the internet, it really opens your eyes to the problems people have getting from morning to evening every day... :cool:

Regards,

C

IJ Reilly
Jan 25, 2008, 06:36 PM
All of this debate about the merits of the MBA is so besides the point. For one, gear-heads always seem to think that everybody selects products the same way they do. The evidence against this should be so overwhelming by now that it hardly bears mentioning. But we've heard exactly the same carping every time an Apple product is released and it doesn't have precisely the "right" set of geek specifications. Sorry boys, this product may not be for you. News flash: this doesn't mean it's a failure.

And that's the second issue. The wire-brains are trying to convince everybody who doesn't think like them that the MBA is a failure before anybody can even get their hands on one. Now, where have we heard that kind of nonsense before? You got it: just about every time Apple releases a product that doesn't include every geek-thrilling feature -- which, of course, is every time Apple releases a product. We can count how many times they've been right on a closed fist.

And finally, taking Dvorak seriously? Come on! Where have you been napping for the past 15 years?

robrose20
Jan 25, 2008, 07:21 PM
Now you are seriously exaggerating. That's ridiculous! How often are people out and about and something happens with their lappy that it requires a system reinstall? Get real! Also since you seem to act like this is all about Apple's Macbook Air you should take a good look at most of the Windows PC manufacturers, they don't give system restore discs hardly anymore.

Sony is the culprit and cheapskate that started all of this and I was afraid Apple might. When you buy a Sony the restore image is on the hard drive so if anything happens what are suppose to do? Well according to Sony they want you to restore from the image on the drive or at last resort burn your own restore disc from the image.

You can do the same with the Macbook, just create a bootable image on your Macbook or your iPod.

So, you are off on a business trip, the night before an important presentation and you will risk not having an optical drive in case the unforseen happens? No matter how rare, it can and will happen, and anyone with any sense would want to have the ability to reinstall something in case it gets corrupted. Be Mac OSX, be it office, be it anything. If you don't, then you are not too bright.

bogman12
Jan 25, 2008, 07:23 PM
I agree with Dvorak fully. This MBA is nothing but a lightweight notebook in both physical and computing performance terms. I mean how weak are these people? How desperately do they need that 3lbs shed? Sheesh.

MacBook Air - A fashion item at best, an expensive ASUS EePC at worst.

I still shoulda bought apple stock on the day when the iphone was release.. gawd.. $85 then.. wow.

robrose20
Jan 25, 2008, 07:23 PM
You travel with ALL your software in case your machine crashes and you have to do a clean install? Wow... there are so many troubled people out there that you never meet in your every day life! I love the internet, it really opens your eyes to the problems people have getting from morning to evening every day... :cool:

Regards,

C

What if Office crashes, or any important piece of software? You bet I do. I carry the system disks, office disk, and a backup of any presentation that I have to give. Anything else would be foolish.

IJ Reilly
Jan 25, 2008, 07:42 PM
What if Office crashes, or any important piece of software? You bet I do. I carry the system disks, office disk, and a backup of any presentation that I have to give. Anything else would be foolish.

I was worried that I was promoting a stereotype, but you seem so anxious to conform to it, I am no longer concerned.

heatmiser
Jan 25, 2008, 07:43 PM
Define 'full functionality' for regular travellers.

The features present in the Macbook and/or Macbook Pro that aren't available in the Macbook Air. Take your pick: hot-swappable batteries, an optical drive, multiple USB ports, an ethernet port, etc.

Cromulent
Jan 25, 2008, 07:56 PM
What if Office crashes, or any important piece of software? You bet I do. I carry the system disks, office disk, and a backup of any presentation that I have to give. Anything else would be foolish.

Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, other people see a use for the MacbookAir which you don't? For me it would be a great machine. I'd have my Mac Pro at home for serious computing and could just take the Air out and about when I needed portability.

All these people who complain about the MBA seem to be incredibly narrow minded.

akadmon
Jan 25, 2008, 07:58 PM
Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, other people see a use for the MacbookAir which you don't? For me it would be a great machine. I'd have my Mac Pro at home for serious computing and could just take the Air out and about when I needed portability.

All these people who complain about the MBA seem to be incredibly narrow minded.

Yeah, the MB is so not portable.:rolleyes:

heatmiser
Jan 25, 2008, 08:05 PM
Yeah, the MB is so not portable.:rolleyes:

Greed makes everything heavier. It's amazing how many people try to justify the MBA by pointing to the MB and MBP as unacceptably leaden laptops. Search back a few months, and you'd find half of them declaring how their MB/Ps (or the MB/P in general) were everything a person could wish for in a laptop.

If and when Apple releases a 2lb or 1lb laptop, you'll see the former fans of the 3lb MBA talking about how they NEED the 1lb laptop because the Air was just "too heavy" for their needs. And even when you pull up their posts from back when they were vigorously defending the MBA, they still won't see how this has more to do with greed than it could ever have to do with weight. :cool:

sushi
Jan 25, 2008, 09:22 PM
MBA will be a bomb.... it will never sell in the numbers needed to be profitable. Overpriced, underpowered, but very sexy looking. I predict apple stock will be less than $100.00 a share by next week.
Let's see you are betting that Apple stock will be less than $100 by Friday, February 1st. Correct?

Hmmm...

Want to place a new MBA with SSD on that? ;)

Just joking since we can't bet on the forums. But my point is, many would disagree with you about the share price.

He drops his pants in public and people look. Such an accomplishment.
Well to do it effectively, takes talent. :p

Ethernet - Hotel with just wired internet, you need that damn external ethernet port to hook up to network, or worse yet a modem.
Who uses the Ethernet cable in the hotel room?

I carry my AE with me. So much more convenient than being tied to the short Ethernet cable that the hotel usually has available. And the AE is a much nicer solution than a patch cord.

MazingerZ
Jan 25, 2008, 09:54 PM
Let's see you are betting that Apple stock will be less than $100 by Friday, February 1st. Correct?

Hmmm...

Want to place a new MBA with SSD on that? ;)

Just joking since we can't bet on the forums. But my point is, many would disagree with you about the share price.


Well to do it effectively, takes talent. :p


Who uses the Ethernet cable in the hotel room?

I carry my AE with me. So much more convenient than being tied to the short Ethernet cable that the hotel usually has available. And the AE is a much nicer solution than a patch cord.

Exactly! I think most of the naysayers about the Macbook air never really travelled to appreciate what a lightweight laptop can offer on the road.

For example, I'm in Manila, Philippines. If I need some hi-speed data, I can connect to the Smart HSPDA network using bluetooth, pan networking and my treo 700w. No wires needed. I get reliable 700kbps connection for 25cents per 30 minutes.

Wires are overated! :eek:

SteveSparks
Jan 25, 2008, 10:13 PM
Remember, people not just want laptops, they want desktop replacements. For an severly underpowered and underfeatured, but nice looking Macbook Air.....like I said, Dvorak is right.

Some do, some don't!

The obvious is that the Macbook Air is not a desktop replacement. So the ones that do, should not buy the Air.

SteveSparks
Jan 25, 2008, 10:20 PM
Remember, people not just want laptops, they want desktop replacements. For an severly underpowered and underfeatured, but nice looking Macbook Air.....like I said, Dvorak is right.

Some do, some don't!

The obvious is that the Macbook Air is not a desktop replacement. So the ones that do, should not buy the Air.

akadmon
Jan 25, 2008, 11:37 PM
Being the guy who started the thread, I think I need to chime in.

I've been using Macs/following Apple on&off since 1987 (I used to lug my Mac Plus to work every day as though it was a portable! :o), so I'm well aware of the fact that Dvorak is to Apple what Ron Borges is to the New England Patriots (you have to be from Boston to get the Ron Borges reference, sorry :)) Still, in the case of his assessment of MBAir and its impact (or rather lack thereof) on Apple's bottom line, I must say I agree with him. Sure, some nit-pickers can argue that he has a few of his facts wrong (the battery comes to mind), yet this does not change the distinct possibility that Apple (Steve Jobs) appear to have miscalculated here, big time. Had they come out with a true ultra-portable, a 12", maybe even an 11" machine, one that, while perhaps not being the as thin as MBAir, had more main stream features (DVD drive, >1 USB port, ethernet), they would have had themselves a huge hit on their hands, despite the fact that it would not have been not much different than want the Sonys of this world have had out there for a while.

The moral of the story is: thinking different is not always smart thinking.

finnns2000
Jan 26, 2008, 12:20 AM
as a former store employee, i can simply say that a lot of people around here just don't get it. the average mac customer today doesn't think like the 'tech-savvy'.

any idea how many people came to me saying how the macbook was 'too heavy' or that the screen was 'too small'? so these people usually ended up buying pros. some people didn't like the white/black casing so they opted for the aluminum. customers will be blown away with how slim and 'cool looking' the air is. and they'll snatch them up like hotcakes. 10% of these people will need a mac for anything more than word processing and internet/mail browsing.

so the notion that the air will fail because the 13.3" screen is too big, or that it doesn't have enough 'features'. that's not what this computer is designed to sell for. touch trackpad, slim factor, cool factor, these are the major things that will move air's out the warehouse. and they will move. if it was easy to sell pro's at $1999 to customers who didn't need this kind of machine...

HLdan
Jan 26, 2008, 12:26 AM
What I don't get about Apple's thinking behind the MBA, is that if a 13" MBP had been released instead, it probably would have appealed to many of those now buying the Air, AS WELL AS those in the market for a 13" MBP (although a 13" MBP would have been heavier).

I think the MBA was an ego project for Jobs ("world's thinnest laptop").

What you are not REALLY getting is the MBA is where the industry is going in terms of notebooks and over time desktops. The world is going in the direction of web based apps and storage and all this unnecessary hardware will diminish.
Just go back in history 5 years ago. We were burning CD's and DVD burning was still on very specific and expensive machines from Apple and very little PC's had them.
Fast forward a few years and nearly ever computer has a DVD burner and then shortly after dual layer has become the standard.
Now we are entering Blu-Ray or HD-DVD and that's still not decided which will be the standard.

Now today, we are downloading music rather than buying CD's to play. We are downloading movies and renting them from the internet rather than wasting $20.00 on a DVD.
The world is going web based and CD's and DVD are becoming so yesterday. The MBA is on track for where we are all going and if you don't see it then maybe you should be using cassette tapes and running Windows 3.1 and connect to dialup.

Cromulent
Jan 26, 2008, 03:43 AM
Yeah, the MB is so not portable.:rolleyes:

Do you realise how much stuff some people have to carry around with them? Even shaving an inch off the thickness of the laptop makes a huge difference to the load you need to carry (the difference between being able to fit everything in one bag or two).

Greed makes everything heavier. It's amazing how many people try to justify the MBA by pointing to the MB and MBP as unacceptably leaden laptops. Search back a few months, and you'd find half of them declaring how their MB/Ps (or the MB/P in general) were everything a person could wish for in a laptop.

If and when Apple releases a 2lb or 1lb laptop, you'll see the former fans of the 3lb MBA talking about how they NEED the 1lb laptop because the Air was just "too heavy" for their needs. And even when you pull up their posts from back when they were vigorously defending the MBA, they still won't see how this has more to do with greed than it could ever have to do with weight. :cool:

I don't care about weight. It could weigh 10lbs for all I care. I care about thickness. That is what makes something portable in my eyes.

em500
Jan 26, 2008, 05:05 AM
Do you realise how much stuff some people have to carry around with them? Even shaving an inch off the thickness of the laptop makes a huge difference to the load you need to carry (the difference between being able to fit everything in one bag or two).

The MacBook is 1.08 inch in total, so shaving off an inch would be quite a feat indeed :)

tersono
Jan 26, 2008, 05:22 AM
What, doesn't anyone care what Dvorak has to say? :eek: The man used to be such an icon in the Mac community. Oh well, kids these days...:rolleyes:


I never did care what he had to say - he may have been an icon for the Mac community at one point, but he's ALWAYS been an idiot. :rolleyes:

jhande
Jan 26, 2008, 05:41 AM
Even though Dvorak is a click whore (which he is), it doesn't mean he isn't right once in a blue moon. This time I actually find myself agreeing with him <shudder>.

ironMonkey
Jan 26, 2008, 11:40 AM
He needs to think thinks over more before writing an article like that. The MBA will be a HIT, PERIOD. Stock down, hmm been expected. Product announcements don't bring stock up on the possibility of recession.

There is no evidence to support such a cut-and-dry statement regarding the MBAs success in the market. I, for one, would be shocked if this thing sells much. It doesn't have any power, the real world testing (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/25/macbook-air-review/) that I've read shows that it gets way less than 5 hours of battery life, and they removed all but one inputs (1 usb). Where is the demand for a product for this, in the marketplace?

I was personally waiting for this MWSF to give us a great new product. I figured it was going to be a return to the 12" powerbook. Instead they unveiled an lighter macbook with less power. Thrilling. I'm just gonna buy a MBP when they put Penryn chips in them. Till then this wicked slow iBook 1.33 will have to do. For shame, apple. I have money burning a hole in my account until there is something worth buying. I want that cool-running penryn and possibly an upgrade gpu.

robanga
Jan 26, 2008, 11:52 AM
Separate from the MBA discussion, I am amazed that any analysts are looking at individual performance of stocks right now and attributing their performance to anything but the market.

Apple had great results as did Microsoft in calendar Q4. Apple provided a conservative look at the months to come with some pessimism about consumer spending. We are looking at big down turn in the economy right now and most stocks are down when compared to Q4. It's relatively simple to see that.

(also in a tightening consumer market, Apple which sells goods that are higher than average in many categories, would tend to feel the pinch first before let's say eMachines/Gateway/Acer)

zioxide
Jan 26, 2008, 12:13 PM
So explain why the Apple stock plummet before and after Macworld.

Because the economy has gone to ****.

The DJIA is down almost 2000 points (over 10%), NASDAQ is down like 500 points (~15%) in the past 3 months.

Cromulent
Jan 26, 2008, 12:23 PM
The MacBook is 1.08 inch in total, so shaving off an inch would be quite a feat indeed :)

Meh, you know what I meant :).

MacNut
Jan 26, 2008, 12:33 PM
I think Dvorak is right on many points, just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean he is wrong. I am amazed that Apple has gotten this "can't do no wrong" attitude by people. Apple is far from a saint company by any means. Listen to a few episodes of his podcast, don't just take his stuff out of context.

Catch
Jan 26, 2008, 12:46 PM
I have come to the conclusion that the MBA is so highly emotionally charged that its pointless trying to have a rational discussion on its merits or lack there of... Very much reminds me of the iPod spectacle all those years ago...

I will enjoy mine in the knowledge that it is the BEST machine out there for ME at ANY price. :)

If it is discontinued in 1 months time at least it will have served its purpose for me and I will own one. Ill just have to take more care of it than I usually do as I won't be able to replace it!

Regards,

C

IJ Reilly
Jan 26, 2008, 05:08 PM
I think Dvorak is right on many points, just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean he is wrong. I am amazed that Apple has gotten this "can't do no wrong" attitude by people. Apple is far from a saint company by any means. Listen to a few episodes of his podcast, don't just take his stuff out of context.

I don't think this is the point at all. What never fails to amaze me is the number of people who are prepared to instantly condemn a product just because they don't have a particular use for it. The worst part about this constant moaning and groaning is that we hear it every time Apple releases a new product, and even when they don't. It's like Apple is somehow in business to please them personally every day of the week, and with each and every new product they release. It's this "can do no right" attitude which I find so strange.

Apple now sells seven laptop models, eight if you include the black version of the MacBook. I say, buy the one you like, and stop carping about the others.

MacNut
Jan 26, 2008, 05:11 PM
The other side of the argument is that if Apple makes something that people don't like isn't there a right to complain until things are changed. Apple has made many things for the quick money grab, doesn't mean they work the way they should.

IJ Reilly
Jan 26, 2008, 05:26 PM
The other side of the argument is that if Apple makes something that people don't like isn't there a right to complain until things are changed. Apple has made many things for the quick money grab, doesn't mean they work the way they should.

What people? No product is designed for everybody. I've heard the exact same gripes about each and every product Apple has shipped -- somebody always thinks it's got some fatal flaw, the only evidence of which is that they don't like something about it. That's ridiculous.

As for "quick money grabs" -- I hardly know how to respond, other than to make the obvious observation that if you don't like that product for the money, then please, please don't buy it. But also please please don't try to tell me that Apple has made some kind of terrible mistake just because you don't like it. And to date, this is the only reason anyone has ever stated for why they believe the MBA is a bad product.

akadmon
Jan 26, 2008, 08:44 PM
It's impossible to say who is ultimately going to be right about the MB Air. In fact, unless it gets the official boot from the Mac lineup, we may never really know how well it does, since, correct me if I'm wrong, Apple does not release sales figures for individual models (heck, nobody even knows how many Mac Pros have been sold!).

While it is clear that the majority of the people on MR find that the MB Air does not appeal to them, this fact alone may not be a good enough indicator of how the average consumer will view this machine. It may come as news to some around here, but the average consumer has only a vague idea of what RAM, RPM, ethernet, USB, GHz, processor cores etc. are, and has absolutely no clue about things like Penryn and Santa Rosa (who comes up with these names anyway?! :confused::eek::rolleyes:). People with enough cash may buy the MB Air on looks alone, God bless them. Ignorance is bliss! Case in point, a year and a half or so ago, on the day the first C2D iMacs were announced, I was in the Cambridge (MA) Apple store and I witnessed a sales guy pushing the freshly obsolete CD iMac onto an elderly lady, without bothering to let her know that a new, more powerful, less expensive model was about to hit the street in a few days. To say I was seething on the inside would be an understatement!:mad: I waited for the guy to go to the back of the store (presumably to get the iMac) and told this lady what was up. I don't think the poor thing understood a single word I said. I just couldn't take it anymore and left the store in disgust, without ever confronting the thug who was about to take advantage her. Sad.:(

IJ Reilly
Jan 27, 2008, 11:58 AM
Apple doesn't usually break down their sales by Mac model. At least, I've never seen them do it.

First, I don't accept the judgment that the majority of MacRumors readers don't find the MBA appealing. This is at best anecdotal evidence -- and for what, I don't know. We've heard essentially the same sorts of gripes about every product Apple has released -- so how useful can that evidence be? Second, I don't appreciate the suggestion that those who think this product has merits are ignorant. We've heard this kind of contempt and derision before, and it doesn't get any better with repetition.

I will agree with your assessment that the majority of computer buyers don't have more than a nodding knowledge or interest in technical specifications. The big difference in views is that I think this is a good thing, not a sign of stupidity. Apple has made a place for itself in the PC world by making products that appeal for reasons other than technical specifications. I would have thought that Mac owners would be a little more tolerant of individuals making choices that aren't precisely the same ones they would make, but I guess that's not the case.

Sadly I am hearing a lot of the same propeller-head dogma from Mac owners lately that has always colored the Windows world. I suppose as the pool of Mac owners increases that's bound to happen, but I don't have to be happy about it.

MacNut
Jan 27, 2008, 12:06 PM
My problem with the MBA is that it has no real functionality, it looks great but that is about it. Apple has gotten to a point of over charging and not giving you anything in return. For what it offers the MBA should be the lowest end of the laptop line. I would not consider it to be a high end machine. For it to be practical you have to spend another few $100 to get the proper add ons that should be included with the machine to begin with. I would rather spend the money on something that will give me usefulness rather then just eye candy.

macjay
Jan 27, 2008, 12:36 PM
Apple now sells seven laptop models, eight if you include the black version of the MacBook.

Why stop at eight when you can include all the possible CTO configurations?

I'd say that Apple sells 4 distinct laptop models.

IJ Reilly
Jan 27, 2008, 12:46 PM
My problem with the MBA is that it has no real functionality, it looks great but that is about it. Apple has gotten to a point of over charging and not giving you anything in return. For what it offers the MBA should be the lowest end of the laptop line. I would not consider it to be a high end machine. For it to be practical you have to spend another few $100 to get the proper add ons that should be included with the machine to begin with. I would rather spend the money on something that will give me usefulness rather then just eye candy.

Everything you have said is completely unsubstantiated opinion. It's not a "high-end machine," it's a sub-notebook for people who have a use for one. What's so difficult to understand about that concept? Maybe you need to look at the other offerings in the sub-notebook category.

I want one, and not for the "eye candy" (whatever the hell that is), but because it would be ideal for road shows, which I do quite often. It's very light and would easily fit in my briefcase along with my projector. The MBA is the first offering from Apple to make me think seriously about replacing my 12" PowerBook.

IJ Reilly
Jan 27, 2008, 12:47 PM
Why stop at eight when you can include all the possible CTO configurations?

I'd say that Apple sells 4 distinct laptop models.

Have it your way then. The conclusion is the same.

LethalWolfe
Jan 27, 2008, 01:08 PM
While it is clear that the majority of the people on MR find that the MB Air does not appeal to them, this fact alone may not be a good enough indicator of how the average consumer will view this machine.
I don't think the discussions about the MBA come close to the negativity that surround the original iPod. And then there was all the b*tching about the iPhone not matching feature-for-feature w/other smart phones in it's price range. If MR was around 10yrs ago when the original iMac was released I can't even fathom how many threads there'd be complaining about how stupid Apple is for releasing an all-in-one machine w/only USB (no legacy ports), no floppy, and only a CD-ROM drive.

The MBA, IMO, is the laptop version of the original iMac.


Lethal

MacNut
Jan 27, 2008, 01:11 PM
Then they should market it as such, a lot of people are looking at the MBA as being a replacement machine.

IJ Reilly
Jan 27, 2008, 01:24 PM
I don't think the discussions about the MBA come close to the negativity that surround the original iPod. And then there was all the b*tching about the iPhone not matching feature-for-feature w/other smart phones in it's price range. If MR was around 10yrs ago when the original iMac was released I can't even fathom how many threads there'd be complaining about how stupid Apple is for releasing an all-in-one machine w/only USB (no legacy ports), no floppy, and only a CD-ROM drive.

The MBA, IMO, is the laptop version of the original iMac.

Exactly. Well I remember, a lot of people thought Apple had completely lost it when they started selling Macs without a floppy drive. Can't possibly sell. A Mac without a dedicated GPU? Can't possibly sell. An iPod touch with less than 32 GB of RAM? Who'd want that? And so on.

Then they should market it as such, a lot of people are looking at the MBA as being a replacement machine.

I supposed you must have missed the keynote and all the discussion about it. Otherwise, I can't imagine where you are coming up with this.

MacNut
Jan 27, 2008, 01:26 PM
I supposed you must have missed the keynote and all the discussion about it. Otherwise, I can't imagine where you are coming up with this.That is from people in this forum. I hear a lot of people saying that the MBA will be a replacement for their current computers.

Personally I think there is a very small market that would want such an expensive computer with no real functionality. Maybe if it was under $1000 then more would jump on.

IJ Reilly
Jan 27, 2008, 01:32 PM
That is from people in this forum. I hear a lot of people saying that the MBA will be a replacement for their current computers.

You are substituting what people say in this forum for Apple's marketing? Now I'm really confused about what you are arguing. And if someone wants to use the MBA as their primary Mac, then why should anyone have a problem with that?

Much Ado
Jan 27, 2008, 01:34 PM
A thread with a link to one of Dvorak's pages? :eek:

What next... voluntary donations to Steve Ballmer?

MacNut
Jan 27, 2008, 01:35 PM
If people are going to use this as an everyday computer I think they will be disappointed in the lack of ability they will get. For the price they should get more.

heatmiser
Jan 27, 2008, 01:42 PM
If people are going to use this as an everyday computer I think they will be disappointed in the lack of ability they will get. For the price they should get more.

I agree with you, but lots of people have to learn stuff the hard way. You only have to read the three threads a week started by high schoolers who refuse to listen to posts other than those that say "get an MBA over a Macbook for college" to see this in action. They'll learn. :cool:

.:R2theT
Jan 27, 2008, 01:53 PM
Apple's stock price dropped because it had to. Come on people. It doubled over the last year. Talk about "emotional exuberance". This is just an adjustment if you asked me. It is still 50 points above where it was a year and half ago.

I am too young to know who this Dvorak guy is, but he seems off the mark. The Air is new type of portable for Apple. It will get cheaper as ssd prices fall over the next couple of years. And in a lot of ways the Air is more advanced than many other portables out there. Sure it has a lack of ports but as Jobs has said over and over and over..."it's all moving to the cloud". This is just Apple getting its foot in that door. Think about the Air in a year or two. 128-256 GB ssd with wireless printing/internet/software loading, LED screen and all wrapped in aluminum. Plus OS X. This thing is going to be phenomenal! I think about how crappy my 1rst gen. 10GB iPod was...

IJ Reilly
Jan 27, 2008, 01:59 PM
If people are going to use this as an everyday computer I think they will be disappointed in the lack of ability they will get. For the price they should get more.

I'm still confused about what you are arguing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it comes down to an assumption that people generally are too stupid to know what they are buying.

Present company excepted, of course.

katorga
Jan 27, 2008, 04:39 PM
Apple's stock is being punished because it is a luxury product and those are the first to go in recession. It is that simple.

That said, the MBA has some serious flaws and some serious positives. The lack of security lock connector would stop me cold. Also, I think the general lack of SD memory slots on Mac's are an issue. It is the new floppy.

Other than that, it is one of only a few ultralights that have a decent sized screen. Anything less than 13" is just to small for me. It is not over priced compared to the Sony SZ (which has better specs) or the Panasonic Y7 or W7.

macjay
Jan 27, 2008, 06:07 PM
Have it your way then. The conclusion is the same.

Well, not exactly. There's less variety to find a laptop that one likes with 4 vs. 8 models. And by size there are only 3 choices. :D

IJ Reilly
Jan 27, 2008, 10:52 PM
Well, not exactly. There's less variety to find a laptop that one likes with 4 vs. 8 models. And by size there are only 3 choices. :D

Okay then, not exactly. The number of Mac laptop choices has not contracted with the release of the MBA -- it has expanded by one. Exactly one. To hear some say it, you'd think Apple had restricted their choice.