Mac OS X 10.3 (Panther) 7B85 Seeded to Select Developers [Archive]

MacRumors

Oct 17, 2003, 05:05 PM

Apple's Developer Connection has seeded Panther 7B85 to the remainder of developers eligible to receive the Panther seeds online. Earlier this week, Apple seeded Panther to Premier Developers (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/10/20031014180335.shtml).

Apple has announced (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/10/20031008085338.shtml) that Mac OS X 10.3 will be available for purchase starting on October 24th 2003 at 8pm at retail stores (http://www.apple.com/retail/panther/).

Apple resellers are restricted from selling Mac OS X 10.3 to customers until this time, although are expected to start receiving stock a couple of days prior to the scheduled event.

dho

Oct 17, 2003, 05:31 PM

is there any more significance than is immediately apparent?

knoxer

Oct 17, 2003, 05:44 PM

I've got my order in for 10.3 (up-to-date, for my G5) I'm slightly concerned about the "evening of the 24th" delivery thing. Does Fed Ex (or any delivery company) do evening delivery? Will I end up waiting until the next Monday to actually get it? Or am I just being paranoid? Is there a possibility that it will come early, or will the shipping company be instructed to hold it?

This is the first time I've pre-ordered something from Apple with a specific delivery date, so I'm just wondering how this normally works...

CrackedButter

Oct 17, 2003, 05:49 PM

If they are getting builds this late i take it this stuff could be in 10.3.1?

Also i order a PB today, i wonder if i get OSX Panther preinstalled when it comes, its got a 10-15 day wait!

Armsreach

Oct 17, 2003, 06:23 PM

Well, as far as my past experience goes, this experience being with Jaguar, my package arrived two whole days prior to the date it was estimated to be shipped. My boss got his the day prior.

Having a friend who works at FedEx, he told me that they do start doing late runs at the end of October for the increase in holiday mail, where they send a second "flood" of drivers out in the mid afternoon, so I could see the possibility of them shipping the panther boxes to doorsteps later in the afternon, but most likely they'll start popping up in the morning or possibly the day prior.

Freg3000

Oct 17, 2003, 07:01 PM

I remember that people getting new Macs last year right before Jaguar (like the week before) had their machines shipped with the install CDs, but it was not pre-installed.

7 days left...

GrannySmith_G5

Oct 17, 2003, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by Freg3000
I remember that people getting new Macs last year right before Jaguar (like the week before) had their machines shipped with the install CDs, but it was not pre-installed.

7 days left...

That is what happened with me last year. I got my imac like 9 days before jaguar was released. It had 10.1 installed, but came with the jaguar disc. Also, my panther order now says on or before october 24th.

nacl99

Oct 17, 2003, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by CrackedButter
If they are getting builds this late i take it this stuff could be in 10.3.1?

Also i order a PB today, i wonder if i get OSX Panther preinstalled when it comes, its got a 10-15 day wait!

This is just 7B85, the final build, nothing new, it has been out 3 weeks at least, I and many others been running it for 2 and a half.

eagerly awaiting my cd in the mail, I'm no pirate, I just like to get an early preview.

reyesmac

Oct 17, 2003, 10:03 PM

Already have my copy on order....but I couldn't wait, I had to try it. What I discovered was that it gave me an error when installing on my original 6 gig drive. My mac has an upgraded CPU in it. I hope this isn't the case when the final gets here. If it is and this is my only Mac I would be p**sed off big time.
It wont matter much since the Powermac I ordered should be here next week, but it would be nice to try it out on the old one too.

**update**
It finally worked if I updated to 10.3 and not installed from scratch. I think everyone is going to love this update. Even on a 450mhz G4 upgraded B&W, it gives it a year or more of useful life. Even more if you don't do demanding work on it every day. Cannot wait to see how it runs on a Dual!

rodnarms

Oct 17, 2003, 10:50 PM

I ordered my PowerBook on October 14 and Apple says it may ship on or before November 4th.

I asked if 10.3 would be included and the sales rep said that because of the late shipping date it could. He could be wrong though.

Can anyone say how 10.3 has improved since the WWDC preview version?

TEG

Oct 17, 2003, 11:28 PM

When I ordered Jaguar, I recieved it 2 days early. I'm also aware of late delivery available with FedEx and Airborne. I've also heard that Apple has hired these companies to deliver only Panther to every pre-orderd address in the US and Canada.

Here's to Hoping

TEG

jazzman45

Oct 18, 2003, 01:22 AM

I'm just double-checking here, but there is simply one version, right? There isn't a G5-specific for those getting it through up-to-date?

MasterMac

Oct 18, 2003, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by jazzman45
I'm just double-checking here, but there is simply one version, right? There isn't a G5-specific for those getting it through up-to-date?

AFAIK, it's "one size fits all" :)

foniks2020

Oct 18, 2003, 02:15 AM

Originally posted by reyesmac
Already have my copy on order....but I couldn't wait, I had to try it. What I discovered was that it gave me an error when installing on my original 6 gig drive. My mac has an upgraded CPU in it. I hope this isn't the case when the final gets here. If it is and this is my only Mac I would be p**sed off big time.
It wont matter much since the Powermac I ordered should be here next week, but it would be nice to try it out on the old one too.

when 10.3 is releases I would be incredibly surprised if new drivers for upgrade CPUS were more than a few hours behind.... I also have an upgrade CPU, an 800mhz G4 Powerforce... it's my 'work' machine.

JW Pepper

Oct 18, 2003, 04:19 AM

I am desperate to get my hands on Panther, but as my machine is used for business I am waiting to see what breaks before buying.

In the past my HP G85 MFD broke with Jag and I am also concerned about VPC, Quark, Macromedia Studio and iMovie.

JettaBoyWA

Oct 18, 2003, 06:19 AM

I've been running Panther 7B85 now for a few days... have been experiencing intermittent problems w/ iChatAV and iSight (cam not being recognized) that seems to be quite prevalent even with those who are running 10.2.8, so no real news on that front. Also, iChatAV is not final release in Panther... 2.0 (145) is what I see.

Otherwise, some cosmetic changes... Expose is awesome, UI seems a bit more refined and more responsive, labels are back, pinstripes are much more subtle, tabs have changed into rectangular "buttons" centered on a horizontal line, etc. Startup sequence is much faster from power on -- almost half the time on my PowerBook -- but I do get a beachball now while the desktop is loading, which I did not have in 10.2.8.

So far, the system seems very stable. I haven't encountered a single application that won't run or is having trouble, so kudos to Apple on this.

By the way, in order to burn the quantities Apple needs for its Panther shipment, it most likely has sent the binaries off for replication over a week ago, so the developer releases you are seeing now are almost assuredly the final "gold master" release. Any further releases will most likely be rolled into future updates.

Cheers!

LimeiBook86

Oct 18, 2003, 08:10 AM

Too bad my G3 MiniTower can't run Panther. I meen it's 333mhz, 512mb RAM, and I think it could handle it. Too bad Apple pulled the plug on it. I still have my PowerBook, iBook, and my Dad's PowerMac G4. Looks like we need a family pack :p

Krevnik

Oct 18, 2003, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by foniks2020
when 10.3 is releases I would be incredibly surprised if new drivers for upgrade CPUS were more than a few hours behind.... I also have an upgrade CPU, an 800mhz G4 Powerforce... it's my 'work' machine.

Well, the only problem is that the kernel extensions required to support the off-chip cache are not stable under Panther most likely. Ones that don't need them should work just fine (like a G4 upgraded Pismo or Lombard).

The biggest problem is the fact that this guy is on a 6GB HD... considering the base Panther install is now 2GB, and an Archive/Install is over 3GB... it could be a problem. Maybe more information on the error is in order.

dho

Oct 18, 2003, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by LimeiBook86
Too bad my G3 MiniTower can't run Panther. I meen it's 333mhz, 512mb RAM, and I think it could handle it. Too bad Apple pulled the plug on it. I still have my PowerBook, iBook, and my Dad's PowerMac G4. Looks like we need a family pack :p
If panther could run on that machine, you would be surprised how speedy it was. My g3 imac 500(7b85) is usualy more responsive than my g4 733(10.2.6)It's like i swapped out the innards. Its a shame about the usb thing. Imacs make great personal servers.

I suppose Jaguar isn't THAT much slower.

I guess we should be fair and try to figure out the lowest speed/function computer that can run XP:D

rohitp

Oct 18, 2003, 12:31 PM

I'm confused by a couple of the above messages. Can Panther not run on a G3? Specifically, one of my machines is a Desktop G3, commonly referred to as the Beige G3.

3.1416

Oct 18, 2003, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by rohitp
I'm confused by a couple of the above messages. Can Panther not run on a G3? Specifically, one of my machines is a Desktop G3, commonly referred to as the Beige G3.

Panther will run only on "New World" G3s, i.e. the ones that have USB built in. This includes all iMacs and blue & white towers, but not beige G3s.

gopher

Oct 18, 2003, 05:27 PM

Apple posted which machines it will run on here:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html

If you don't see your machine there, it won't run Panther.

MoodMinefield

Oct 18, 2003, 05:41 PM

I can't wait for panther, i am ready to practically BURST at the anticipation of it all!

Krevnik

Oct 18, 2003, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by gopher
Apple posted which machines it will run on here:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html

If you don't see your machine there, it won't run Panther.

Hmm, slight problem with that... which I hope Apple fixed before sending the CD for duplication. The 7B85 leak from awhile back doesn't boot in a stable manner on Lombard machines... the Install CD kernel panics about 99% of the time with a 'cannot find driver for platform' error.

nighttraitor

Oct 18, 2003, 05:51 PM

Moodminefield,

Not that this will help or anything, but everything in Panther is instant. You delete something, its gone, no beach balls. You want to move this windo and close that window, its done. Expose' is wicked cool. I showed it to my dad, ad die hard windows guy, and i swear I heard him giggle like a little kid in a candy store. All of that to say, you won't be disappointed.
Cheers!

iHack

Oct 18, 2003, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by Krevnik
Hmm, slight problem with that... which I hope Apple fixed before sending the CD for duplication. The 7B85 leak from awhile back doesn't boot in a stable manner on Lombard machines... the Install CD kernel panics about 99% of the time with a 'cannot find driver for platform' error.

Hey, what's to say... Lombards are not on the Apple website, so apparently, your Lombard is unsupported, even though it has USB support.

Isn't that a bummer...

Charles Moore (macopinion.com) had a nice column last week on the Wallstreet being not supported anymore, where the lack of support for lombards was mentioned as well (find it here (http://www.macopinion.com/columns/roadwarrior/03/10/13/index.html)).

M.

patseguin

Oct 18, 2003, 07:10 PM

I ordered my Up-To-Date Panther via fax last week. How do I know what the shipping status is? I received no kind of acknowledgement from Apple.

achmafooma

Oct 18, 2003, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by 3.1416
Panther will run only on "New World" G3s, i.e. the ones that have USB built in. This includes all iMacs and blue & white towers, but not beige G3s.
Has anybody actually tried it on a beige G3? I had a used Wallstreet (sold it to a friend at-cost... I'm a conduit for cheap switchers) and even though it didn't have the required ram, OS X installed and ran on it.

A little slow, but no real problems.

So I'm wondering if this means that it wont work, or if it just means Apple doesn't support or condone it.

I've got a beige G3 I keep around as a fun machine to nerd around with... it has OS X, OS 9, and Yellow Dog Linux on even partitions but I don't do hardly any real work on it... the exception being when I'm doing something full-screen on my Quicksilver and need to bring up a website (when I'm in X-Plane, for example).

I'll try Panther on it, just to see what happens ;-) when I get my CDs.

But the Quicksilver and iBook are the only ones I really care about being up to date.

WM.

Oct 18, 2003, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by iHack
Hey, what's to say... Lombards are not on the Apple website,
Yes they are. "PowerBook (Bronze Keyboard)" = Lombard.
so apparently, your Lombard is unsupported, even though it has USB support.

Isn't that a bummer...

Charles Moore (macopinion.com) had a nice column last week on the Wallstreet being not supported anymore, where the lack of support for lombards was mentioned as well
He doesn't say that they aren't supported, he says that it's not clear.

Let's not spread FUD, OK? The Lombard is supported, period. Whether it works or not is another matter, apparently. This is the first time I've seen anyone say that Panther doesn't work on the Lombard, so I'm not necessarily inclined to believe Krevnik, but if it really doesn't work Apple will fix it promptly. Even if they do, it would be a fiasco, so somehow I doubt that it doesn't work "99% of the time" as he says.

WM

ryaxnb

Oct 18, 2003, 08:15 PM

gopher

Oct 18, 2003, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by WM.
Yes they are. "PowerBook (Bronze Keyboard)" = Lombard.

He doesn't say that they aren't supported, he says that it's not clear.

Let's not spread FUD, OK? The Lombard is supported, period. Whether it works or not is another matter, apparently. This is the first time I've seen anyone say that Panther doesn't work on the Lombard, so I'm not necessarily inclined to believe Krevnik, but if it really doesn't work Apple will fix it promptly. Even if they do, it would be a fiasco, so somehow I doubt that it doesn't work "99% of the time" as he says.

WM

Sorry, but you are mistaken. The Lombard is not supported. Look at

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html

The picture shows the Pismo there. It does not show the Lombard. The Lombard never had an image of a videocamera by its side. The Pismo did. Part of the reason this is the case, is that the Pismo has Firewire, and the Lombard does not. And the other part of the reason, if you followed the Macfixit and Apple Forums, you'd find out the Lombard have a particular chip issue with Mac OS X in general that it is the luck of the draw if yours supports X. Many you couldn't install X at all.

JBracy

Oct 18, 2003, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by gopher
Sorry, but you are mistaken. The Lombard is not supported. Look at

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html

The picture shows the Pismo there. It does not show the Lombard. The Lombard never had an image of a videocamera by its side. The Pismo did. Part of the reason this is the case, is that the Pismo has Firewire, and the Lombard does not. And the other part of the reason, if you followed the Macfixit and Apple Forums, you'd find out the Lombard have a particular chip issue with Mac OS X in general that it is the luck of the draw if yours supports X. Many you couldn't install X at all.

The fact of the matter is that Apple says "PowerBook (Bronze Keyboard)" Which is what they always called the the Lombard. The "PowerBook (FireWire)" is what they called the Pismo. Check the Apple Info Page at http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=58359 it clearly says:

"PowerBook G3 Series (Bronze Keyboard): Technical Specifications ………

Connectivity
Two 12 Mbps Universal Serial Bus (USB) ports
SCSI port for connecting as many as seven external devices
Power adapter port"

Sounds like a lombard to me.

WM.

Oct 19, 2003, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by gopher
Sorry, but you are mistaken. The Lombard is not supported. Look at

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html

The picture shows the Pismo there. It does not show the Lombard. The Lombard never had an image of a videocamera by its side. The Pismo did. Part of the reason this is the case, is that the Pismo has Firewire, and the Lombard does not.
That's true, but I doubt even the person who chose that picture on that page knew or noticed whether that was a Lombard or a Pismo.

Look, it doesn't matter what the pictures look like. What matters is that Apple says all over the place (including on the retail box, presumably) that Panther supports G3/G4/G5 Macs with built-in USB, at least 128 MB of RAM, and an Apple-supplied video card of some sort. That includes the Lombard. Period.

And JBracy is right.
And the other part of the reason, if you followed the Macfixit and Apple Forums, you'd find out the Lombard have a particular chip issue with Mac OS X in general that it is the luck of the draw if yours supports X. Many you couldn't install X at all.
It doesn't matter. Like I said, the Lombard is officially supported. Whether it actually works or not, in practice, is a different issue. And if it doesn't work, Apple is obligated to fix it.

Also, are you talking about installation issues with Panther, or with previous versions of OS X?

WM

edit: Hey, it's the six-month anniversary of my joining these forums.

lewdvig

Oct 19, 2003, 01:14 AM

I got 10.1 working on a 120MHz PowerMac 7600. So I think that Lombard owners will be fine.

Krevnik

Oct 19, 2003, 05:24 AM

Okay, let me clear a couple of things up:

1) The Lombard IS supported.

2) Builds before the 7B85 leak INSTALLED and WORKED just fine.

3) The 7B85 leak refuses to boot off the CD for me, and when it does in some freak occurance, the installer claims the CD is corrupt. I have checked and the checksum, MD5 hash, verified burn, etc are fine.

This leads me to the conclusion that an error was made in the CD image that became the leaked 7B85. Now, if this error still exists in the official 7B85 seed, and the GM still remains to be seen. I hope it doesn't exist, because if it is, people will be angry, including me, when we spend 130$ on a mistake in CD mastering.

Rufus T Firefly

Oct 19, 2003, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by lewdvig
I got 10.1 working on a 120MHz PowerMac 7600. So I think that Lombard owners will be fine.

OSX works even on 6500 powermacs : check <http://www.zone6400.com/files/installing_OSX.html>

On my old B&W G3/300, Panther beta (7b85) has speeded up everything, especially quartz and graphic interface...!
So it's worth buying it as a major update

JBracy

Oct 19, 2003, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Krevnik
3) The 7B85 leak refuses to boot off the CD for me, and when it does in some freak occurance, the installer claims the CD is corrupt. I have checked and the checksum, MD5 hash, verified burn, etc are fine.

This leads me to the conclusion that an error was made in the CD image that became the leaked 7B85. Now, if this error still exists in the official 7B85 seed, and the GM still remains to be seen. I hope it doesn't exist, because if it is, people will be angry, including me, when we spend 130$ on a mistake in CD mastering.

Actually this is something that Apple did. In order to burn the CD correctly you need to use 'Disc Copy" in 10.2 or "Disc Utility" in previous 10.3 builds. If you use Toast it will not boot or will appear corrupt.

WM.

Oct 19, 2003, 03:12 PM

gopher

Oct 19, 2003, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by Krevnik
Okay, let me clear a couple of things up:

1) The Lombard IS supported.

2) Builds before the 7B85 leak INSTALLED and WORKED just fine.

3) The 7B85 leak refuses to boot off the CD for me, and when it does in some freak occurance, the installer claims the CD is corrupt. I have checked and the checksum, MD5 hash, verified burn, etc are fine.

This leads me to the conclusion that an error was made in the CD image that became the leaked 7B85. Now, if this error still exists in the official 7B85 seed, and the GM still remains to be seen. I hope it doesn't exist, because if it is, people will be angry, including me, when we spend 130$ on a mistake in CD mastering.

Krevnik, any non-official copy you have of Panther may actually be an earlier build even though the build number is the same. If your most modern Mac is the Lombard, either buy a newer Mac, or cancel your Panther order. I tell you, unless Apple's link here:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html

Shows the Lombard in the picture, I do not believe it is supported. Both Lombard and Pismo had Bronze keyboards, but what's pictured there is definitely the Pismo, since it was the first Powerbook that supported DV cameras, which that Powerbook is shown with.

Looking here it is clearer that picture shown is definitely the Firewire Powerbook G3:

http://web.archive.org/web/20020903234252/http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html

JBracy

Oct 19, 2003, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by gopher
I tell you, unless Apple's link here:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html

Shows the Lombard in the picture, I do not believe it is supported. Both Lombard and Pismo had Bronze keyboards, but what's pictured there is definitely the Pismo, since it was the first Powerbook that supported DV cameras, which that Powerbook is shown with.

Looking here it is clearer that picture shown is definitely the Firewire Powerbook G3:

http://web.archive.org/web/20020903234252/http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE PICTURE IS!!! Apple never referred to these PowerBooks publicly by their code name. Neither could anyone ever be expected to analyze a 1" square picture to determine if they have a supported product. The FACT of the matter is that Apple have Always publicly referred to the Lombard as "PowerBook G3 (Bronze Keyboard)" and to Pismo as "PowerBook G3 (FireWire)" Look at the Apple Info articles!
http://kbase.info.apple.com/viewdoc.jsp?locale=en_US&searchMode=Expert&type=id&docID=KC.58359_E

http://kbase.info.apple.com/viewdoc.jsp?locale=en_US&searchMode=Expert&type=id&docID=KC.58336_E

http://kbase.info.apple.com/viewdoc.jsp?locale=en_US&searchMode=Expert&type=id&docID=KC.58330_E

Basically Apple named it's PowerBook G3 computers by what was new on them.

gopher

Oct 19, 2003, 04:06 PM

JBracy,
I agree with you to a point, but my point is the picture clearly shows a Pismo, not a Lombard. The picture itself could be a typo, or the text Bronze could be a typo. That's what's not clear from Apple's website. And until official word shows up that it is supported clearing the confusion, I would err on the side of caution.

ryan

Oct 19, 2003, 04:19 PM

JBracy

Oct 19, 2003, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by gopher
JBracy,
I agree with you to a point, but my point is the picture clearly shows a Pismo, not a Lombard. The picture itself could be a typo, or the text Bronze could be a typo. That's what's not clear from Apple's website. And until official word shows up that it is supported clearing the confusion, I would err on the side of caution.

My point is that the picture is irrelevant. How much more official can you get than Apple saying that we support "PowerBook G3 (Bronze Keyboard)" when that is what Apple have ALWAYS called that product?

If they were referring to the Pismo then they would have said "PowerBook G3 (FireWire)"

Now the assumption is that the Pismo is also included, as they both have bronze keyboards, but if you want to be picky you could actually read this to say that the Lombard is supported and the Pismo is not. I doubt this is the case.

Actually I am slightly wrong. The Lombard is refered to as "PowerBook G3 Series (Bronze Keyboard)", so the fact that it just says "PowerBook G3 (Bronze Keyboard)" should indicate that all PowerBook G3's with Bronze keyboards are supported.

gopher

Oct 19, 2003, 04:22 PM

I will only put the picture out of my head, once I hear that the Lombard actually works with a retail purchased copy of Panther. Until such time, we can only speculate unless Apple clarifies the website.

JBracy

Oct 19, 2003, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by gopher
I will only put the picture out of my head, once I hear that the Lombard actually works with a retail purchased copy of Panther. Until such time, we can only speculate unless Apple clarifies the website.

Apple will NEVER say that "Lombard" is supported, because they never refer to products by their code name (well except Jaguar and Panther) but the official name of the PowerBook that we refer to as Lombard is "PowerBook G3 (Bronze Keyboard).

Just take a look in "MacTracker" the Official name of Lombard is "PowerBook G3 (Bronze Keyboard)"!!!

gopher

Oct 19, 2003, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by JBracy
Apple will NEVER say that "Lombard" is supported, because they never refer to products by their code name (well except Jaguar and Panther) but the official name of the PowerBook that we refer to as Lombard is "PowerBook G3 (Bronze Keyboard).

Just take a look in "MacTracker" the Official name of Lombard is "PowerBook G3 (Bronze Keyboard)"!!!

Oh I know that, but by the same token, it can clarify which Bronze keyboard model they meant. The Firewire model or the SCSI model? The SCSI model is the only Mac with both SCSI built-in and USB. Blue and White G3 had a PCI SCSI card, and not a built-in SCSI port, and that's what may be limiting the Lombard.

JBracy

Oct 19, 2003, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by gopher
Oh I know that, but by the same token, it can clarify which Bronze keyboard model they meant. The Firewire model or the SCSI model? The SCSI model is the only Mac with both SCSI built-in and USB. Blue and White G3 had a PCI SCSI card, and not a built-in SCSI port, and that's what may be limiting the Lombard.

SCSI does not limit OSX the LACK of USB does. OSX does not require FireWire ports, but it does require USB and does not support built in serial ports. That is why the beige G3's are not supported not because they have SCSI.

I had everything upto 10.1 running on a Lombard, but I don't have one anymore, otherwise I'd test it and give you a definitive answer.

Krevnik

Oct 19, 2003, 05:30 PM

Okay, let me clarify further... the Lombard series *is* supported. In fact, it is now the new lowest-end laptop that is supported by the newest OS X version, much like the iMac now.

Additionally, the problem seemed to be due to my burner, not my laptop. I was using a Yamaha SCSI burner (didn't need any additional drivers, DiscBurning recognized it 'automagically'), and just tried a newer LaCie drive and that booted just fine without any errors.

So, all this fuss over an error in the making of the CD image and DiscBurning's not-quite-there SCSI support. Whee.

If Apple had not intended to support the Lombard, then they would have said so. However, the Bronze Keyboard models are supported, which is why I purchased a used one 2 months ago (can't exactly afford a 'new' machine until I stop spending 15 grand a year on college). Apple also would have pulled the plug well before the WWDC build, which works just fine.

gopher

Oct 19, 2003, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by Krevnik
Okay, let me clarify further... the Lombard series *is* supported. In fact, it is now the new lowest-end laptop that is supported by the newest OS X version, much like the iMac now.

Additionally, the problem seemed to be due to my burner, not my laptop. I was using a Yamaha SCSI burner (didn't need any additional drivers, DiscBurning recognized it 'automagically'), and just tried a newer LaCie drive and that booted just fine without any errors.

So, all this fuss over an error in the making of the CD image and DiscBurning's not-quite-there SCSI support. Whee.

If Apple had not intended to support the Lombard, then they would have said so. However, the Bronze Keyboard models are supported, which is why I purchased a used one 2 months ago (can't exactly afford a 'new' machine until I stop spending 15 grand a year on college). Apple also would have pulled the plug well before the WWDC build, which works just fine.

You can get a dual USB iBook for $800 which is supported. That's Apple's student price on many of their refurbished iBooks. The Lombard is no guarantee to be supported by Panther. That image being there on their website leads me to believe it isn't supported. I would send in for a refund on Panther until official word is clearer. The toilet seat iBook is actually the lowest end laptop supported by Panther, and that can be had for as little as $600 if you shop around. But I would put it on at least a dual USB iBook which has Firewire and two USB ports. The problem with getting a machine with no Firewire is also that you can't make a mirror backup that is reliable with it, in case you wanted to upgrade and suddenly the upgrade didn't work. Having a built-in Firewire port lets you make a backup before upgrading, and not have to reinstall everything.

catman2u

Oct 19, 2003, 06:24 PM

--I made the order on curiousity, just to see if it arrived pm the 24th. I assume they mean pm/afternoon, but either way my company is open until 10-11 pm so that should be enuff.

Krevnik

Oct 19, 2003, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by gopher
The Lombard is no guarantee to be supported by Panther. That image being there on their website leads me to believe it isn't supported.

Hmm, no offense, but the image argument is beating a dead horse. 7B85 installed on my system without any installer trickery. 7B74 installed without any trickery. 7B53 installed without any trickery. The WWDC build installed without any trickery. Enough proof that Panther indeed works on the Lombard/Bronze Keyboard and is supported? (The image is very likely the best one to pick, or the easiest to grab from their archives from 3-4 years ago, and in no way reflects the technical decisions of Apple)

I am quite aware of the limitations of my purchase, and took them into account when making a decision. Please, do not assume you know how to make a better purchase decision than the person having to spend the money, time, and thought than someone who has to actually make it and live with it. Especially when it wasn't asked for.

gopher

Oct 19, 2003, 06:39 PM

it may work on beta builds but be shut off in the final release. I would stick to using what works, and not worry about purchasing the final release until you know it works from other people's reports with the final release, or Apple officially recognizes it without any doubt as supported.

Ringo_Starr

Oct 20, 2003, 04:14 AM

Originally posted by JBracy
Actually this is something that Apple did. In order to burn the CD correctly you need to use 'Disc Copy" in 10.2 or "Disc Utility" in previous 10.3 builds. If you use Toast it will not boot or will appear corrupt.

I used Toast to burn the ADC builds and it worked just fine. I dragged the first part of the split DMG on the Toast window and burned the CD. It was bootable and Panther installed just fine.

Ringo

MasterMac

Oct 20, 2003, 04:52 AM

Originally posted by Ringo_Starr
I used Toast to burn the ADC builds and it worked just fine. I dragged the first part of the split DMG on the Toast window and burned the CD. It was bootable and Panther installed just fine.

Ringo That's odd. Every time I tried toast with a copy of OS X it wouldn't work :confused:

pjtro2

Oct 20, 2003, 07:32 AM

Originally posted by MasterMac
That's odd. Every time I tried toast with a copy of OS X it wouldn't work :confused:

You need to mount cd1 - and select "Mac Volume" in toast.. works fine then.

Krevnik

Oct 20, 2003, 07:33 AM

7B85's leaked disc image is different. It just doesn't burn the same way. Not only is what you burn it with matter, but what burner/media is used as well. I was having problems until I used a different burner.

WM.

Oct 20, 2003, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by gopher
it may work on beta builds but be shut off in the final release. I would stick to using what works, and not worry about purchasing the final release until you know it works from other people's reports with the final release, or Apple officially recognizes it without any doubt as supported.
I have now lost all patience.

YOU, sir (or ma'am as the case may be), are the ONLY person introducing ANY doubt into the situation. What is it, are you paranoid? Conspiracy theorist? Pessimist? Troll?

Do you, a person with almost a thousand posts on these forums and who has achieved 6502 status, seriously and in all honesty think that Apple would drop support for a popular model and only indicate that indirectly with an obscure detail in a picture above a caption that indicates otherwise? And on a page with text that clearly contradicts your points? On a site with several other pages that also contradict them?

I am willing to bet you a large sum of money that a picture of a Pismo was chosen because it was easier for Apple's web lackeys to get to. The Lombard and Pismo are almost identical on the outside aside from (IIRC) the power connector and the presence of FireWire ports--neither of which are visible in the photo. (Yes, yes, there's a FireWire DV camera, so we know it's a Pismo, but I doubt ANYONE besides you noticed.) I submit that Apple simply wanted to illustrate the form factor of the supported PowerBooks.

Your argument is as ridiculous as suggesting that Panther won't support Strawberry iMacs because none are pictured.

No offense, but it doesn't seem constructive to me to introduce this kind of mindless FUD (and that's what it is, IMHO) into this thread.

WM

gopher

Oct 20, 2003, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by WM.
I have now lost all patience.

YOU, sir (or ma'am as the case may be), are the ONLY person introducing ANY doubt into the situation. What is it, are you paranoid? Conspiracy theorist? Pessimist? Troll?

Do you, a person with almost a thousand posts on these forums and who has achieved 6502 status, seriously and in all honesty think that Apple would drop support for a popular model and only indicate that indirectly with an obscure detail in a picture above a caption that indicates otherwise? And on a page with text that clearly contradicts your points? On a site with several other pages that also contradict them?

I am willing to bet you a large sum of money that a picture of a Pismo was chosen because it was easier for Apple's web lackeys to get to. The Lombard and Pismo are almost identical on the outside aside from (IIRC) the power connector and the presence of FireWire ports--neither of which are visible in the photo. (Yes, yes, there's a FireWire DV camera, so we know it's a Pismo, but I doubt ANYONE besides you noticed.) I submit that Apple simply wanted to illustrate the form factor of the supported PowerBooks.

Your argument is as ridiculous as suggesting that Panther won't support Strawberry iMacs because none are pictured.

No offense, but it doesn't seem constructive to me to introduce this kind of mindless FUD (and that's what it is, IMHO) into this thread.

WM This is not FUD, but reasonable doubt cast by the fact that Apple presents that image there. Until it is fixed, I can't say that I believe it will be compatible. Until Apple shows that it does work on the Lombard, I'm not recommending it to Lombard users.

Krevnik

Oct 20, 2003, 06:59 PM

Okay, this is ridiculous. I sent a PM to you gopher in an attempt to get you to drop this off this thread because it was getting off-topic and heated.

Here is a simple reason why Apple either supports the Lombard or is facing a lawsuit... they stated the requirements as:

PowerPC G3/G4/G5 processor
Built-in USB
128MB RAM

The Lombard meets these requirements, and that is all that matters. In a legal context, if they don't state it in text, then it isn't a requirement. Images in marketting are notorious for being misleading, and thus very weak defenses in court. I don't think Apple is stupid enough to let something like this slip by, since it would be a fairly nasty lawsuit they couldn't win.

Now please... let us get back on topic. :)

- Happily Typing on Panther 7B85 on a Lombard.

pjtro2

Oct 20, 2003, 06:59 PM

How about everyone take a deep, three day breath, and come back here on Friday night to settle your differences, this thread is going nowhere and is turning into a tiresome flaming match.
I keep coming back in the hope that there is some interesting new bit of info. Just agree to disagree, kiss and make up, and start to get excited that panther is a only a few days away...

JBracy

Oct 20, 2003, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by gopher
This is not FUD, but reasonable doubt cast by the fact that Apple presents that image there. Until it is fixed, I can't say that I believe it will be compatible. Until Apple shows that it does work on the Lombard, I'm not recommending it to Lombard users.

I give up..... Some people just refuse to listen to reason. Here we go one more time:

THE PICTURE IS IRRELEVANT!!! READ THE TEXT. THE TEXT SAYS THAT THE LOMBARD IS SUPPORTED, SO THERE YOU HAVE IT STRAIGHT FROM APPLE!!!