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P-Worm
Jan 28, 2008, 02:13 PM
http://www.9news.com/news/world/article.aspx?storyid=85263

Gordon Bitner Hinckley, President and Prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, passed away last night at the old age of 97. I feel he was an extraordinarily good man, and I will miss him.

P-Worm

Father Jack
Jan 28, 2008, 02:15 PM
R.i.p.

Don't panic
Jan 28, 2008, 02:27 PM
i thought this thread was about Tim Leary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Leary).

Is 'prophet' a purely honorific title for the church leader?

P-Worm
Jan 28, 2008, 02:46 PM
i thought this thread was about Tim Leary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Leary).

Haha. That's pretty funny.

Is 'prophet' a purely honorific title for the church leader?

No. Members of the church (myself included) believe that the current president of the Church is a prophet in every sense of the word - that he receives guidance from God to direct people on the earth at the time. He can be thought of as a modern day Moses.

P-Worm

Naimfan
Jan 28, 2008, 03:06 PM
No. Members of the church (myself included) believe that the current president of the Church is a prophet in every sense of the word - that he receives guidance from God to direct people on the earth at the time. He can be thought of as a modern day Moses.


Based on that, is it fair to compare the president of the church to the pope?

takao
Jan 28, 2008, 03:08 PM
i thought this thread was about Tim Leary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Leary).

actually i thought the very same thing... ;)

P-Worm
Jan 28, 2008, 03:44 PM
Based on that, is it fair to compare the president of the church to the pope?

I think that's a fair comparison, but I'm not a Catholic theologian so I can't be 100% sure. But what I understand they are the same 'position' as it were.

P-Worm

Naimfan
Jan 28, 2008, 03:48 PM
I think that's a fair comparison, but I'm not a Catholic theologian so I can't be 100% sure. But what I understand they are the same 'position' as it were.

P-Worm

Thanks--I'm not LDS or Catholic, but the parallels seem fairly clear (with the obvious theological differences!).

How is the next president selected? Is there an analog to the College of Cardinals? Or is the number 2 person simply elevated?

P-Worm
Jan 28, 2008, 04:05 PM
How is the next president selected? Is there an analog to the College of Cardinals? Or is the number 2 person simply elevated?

The answer is that the number 2 person (in this case Thomas S. Monson) becomes the new number 1 (Gosh, this is starting to sound like that old BBC show The Prisoner), but it is much more deep than that. Read on if you care.

The Church believes that when Jesus Christ was on the earth he started His church and called 12 apostles to run the church with a first presidency as head of the 12 apostles (in the New Testament, this was Peter, James, and John). When an apostle dies, a new one is appointed in his place. This can be seen in Acts 1:24-26:

24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Here, Matthias replaced Judas as one of the Twelve. After this, the history gets muddled and it isn't clear who replaced who. We know Stephen was stoned and that the famous Paul was not one of the original 12, but whether Paul replaced Stephen I don't know.

The Church believes that all of the apostles were killed off quick enough that the Church foundation crumbled and the world fell into a time of darkness and apostasy often referred to as the Dark Ages. At this time, Christ's Church was not on the earth because the direct link with God was not present. The Church believes that the Church was reestablished later when God called Joseph Smith to be the new prophet and president of His Church and called new apostles to rebuild the Church and that it has continued on until today.

What makes the line of succession a little deeper is that I believe that God has chosen when His apostles are ordained. So although Thomas S. Monson is the next in line, he was placed in that spot by God so that he could be the prophet at this time.

Now that Gordon B. Hinckley has died, a new apostle will have to be chosen to fill the vacancy that is now there.

P-Worm

Eric Piercey
Jan 28, 2008, 04:33 PM
i thought this thread was about Tim Leary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Leary).

Is 'prophet' a purely honorific title for the church leader?

With an aside to Star Trek 4: The Voyage Home

Naimfan
Jan 28, 2008, 04:37 PM
The answer is that the number 2 person (in this case Thomas S. Monson) becomes the new number 1 (Gosh, this is starting to sound like that old BBC show The Prisoner), but it is much more deep than that. Read on if you care.
.
.
.

What makes the line of succession a little deeper is that I believe that God has chosen when His apostles are ordained. So although Thomas S. Monson is the next in line, he was placed in that spot by God so that he could be the prophet at this time.

Now that Gordon B. Hinckley has died, a new apostle will have to be chosen to fill the vacancy that is now there.

P-Worm

Thank you for taking the time to post that! Very interesting.

gusapple
Jan 28, 2008, 05:57 PM
The answer is that the number 2 person (in this case Thomas S. Monson) becomes the new number 1 (Gosh, this is starting to sound like that old BBC show The Prisoner), but it is much more deep than that. Read on if you care.

The Church believes that when Jesus Christ was on the earth he started His church and called 12 apostles to run the church with a first presidency as head of the 12 apostles (in the New Testament, this was Peter, James, and John). When an apostle dies, a new one is appointed in his place. This can be seen in Acts 1:24-26:



Here, Matthias replaced Judas as one of the Twelve. After this, the history gets muddled and it isn't clear who replaced who. We know Stephen was stoned and that the famous Paul was not one of the original 12, but whether Paul replaced Stephen I don't know.

The Church believes that all of the apostles were killed off quick enough that the Church foundation crumbled and the world fell into a time of darkness and apostasy often referred to as the Dark Ages. At this time, Christ's Church was not on the earth because the direct link with God was not present. The Church believes that the Church was reestablished later when God called Joseph Smith to be the new prophet and president of His Church and called new apostles to rebuild the Church and that it has continued on until today.

What makes the line of succession a little deeper is that I believe that God has chosen when His apostles are ordained. So although Thomas S. Monson is the next in line, he was placed in that spot by God so that he could be the prophet at this time.

Now that Gordon B. Hinckley has died, a new apostle will have to be chosen to fill the vacancy that is now there.

P-Worm

I am not being sarcastic in what I am saying. What you have said here is mostly true, however, when the Prophet dies, the 2nd and 3rd in command (or what was the "First Presidency" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Presidency_(LDS_Church))) is dissolved back into the 12 apostles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorum_of_the_Twelve_Apostles_%28LDS_Church%29), so it's more like there are 14 (temporarily). Then, the new prophet and 2 councilors can be chosen out of the 14 men. Historically, however, the "second in command" if you will, has become the new Prophet. Sorry, if you didn't get the lingo, it's kinda hard to explain it all out.

nbs2
Jan 28, 2008, 06:09 PM
The answer is that the number 2 person (in this case Thomas S. Monson) becomes the new number 1 (Gosh, this is starting to sound like that old BBC show The Prisoner), but it is much more deep than that. Read on if you care.

Almost. Traditionally, the longest serving Apostle, after the former counselors rejoin the Quorum, is called to be the President of the church. However, the decision is founded in revelation - that is, it is entirely possible you could be called to be the President of the church.

Naimfan, one big difference in the election is that the College of the Cardinals votes, and selects based on a 2/3 majority (from my understanding). Within the LDS doctrine, the vote must be unanimous. Additionally, any decision must be sustained by the membership of the church at the following General Conference of the Church (held in April and October of every year).

Regarding President Hinckley, his passing is sad and his contributions to the church have rarely been matched. Yet, you could see a sadness behind his joy ever since his wife passed away. I'm sure that he is at peace.

gusapple
Jan 28, 2008, 06:12 PM
Regarding President Hinckley, his passing is sad and his contributions to the church have rarely been matched. Yet, you could see a sadness behind his joy ever since his wife passed away. I'm sure that he is at peace.

I agree with that completely, he loved to serve, but he was very lonely without his wife.

P-Worm
Jan 29, 2008, 08:54 AM
Both of you are right. Sorry about the misinformation.

P-Worm