iTunes 5 and Other Peripherals?

[MacRumors]

With the release of iTunes Windows, readers saw Apple upgrade iTunes to version 4.1 (from 4.0) and Quicktime to 6.4 (from 6.3). These specific version upgrades were reported the day before (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/10/20031015140137.shtml) the launch, contradicting earlier rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/10/20031013130359.shtml) that the October 16th event would bring iTunes 5.

The original iTunes 5 Rumor (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/10/20031009151815.shtml) first appeared on Page 2 (http://page2.macrumors.com) with a similar report posted days later on Appleinsider (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/10/20031013130359.shtml).

Both unconfirmed reports introduced a concept of "listener loans" as well as a major upgrade to the iTunes jukebox software ("iTunes 5"). These reports appear to be wrong. While there is always the possibility that these upgrades are still in the development pipeline, it appears more likely that the rumors were simply a product of misinformation, and should be considered as such until more information is available.

While we've heard no specific confirmation of the other iPod accessories (photo viewer/bluetooth headphones) , we have received a report that more iPod accessories are in the pipeline.

[Doctor Q]

What is a "listener loan"?

[arn]

Originally posted by Doctor Q
What is a "listener loan"?

Well, depending on how you piece the rumors together...

The ability for Apple to offer songs to be "borrowed" in their entirety. Either limiting the # of plays or the # of days it can be played.

Here's a speculative article on how this could be accomplished:

http://www.chaosmint.com/macintosh/articles/itunes-listener-loans.shtml

arn

[Wonder Boy]

Originally posted by Macrumors
we have received a report that more iPod accessories are in the pipeline.

i hope so. i have no interest in either accessory. an AM/FM tuner would be hot...

[Doctor Q]

Interesting. I think that listener loans would have two contrary effects: (1) Allow some new uses not previously available. (2) Produce complaints about Apple's "new restrictions". The current iTunes/ITMS/iPod attitude of "do what's reasonable and we won't stand in your way" is about as simple as one can expect while maintaining a little law and order. Having tunes limited to a certain number of plays would make things more complicated and dilute this message. I see the irony that adding new types of music-playing permissions could produce a backlash against "limitations".

[Macmaniac]

I just hope Apple makes the next iPod accessories and not Belkin, the Mic would have looked alot better if Apple did it, and I bet it would have better recording capabilities as well.

[punter]

how about a radio tuner that you can record on the ipod. That would be good.

Which gives me an idea to tape some triple j (radio station) for the next time I go overseas.

[Freg3000]

Apple probably let Belkin do it to show that Apple is not hostile to third parties.

Still, I'd wish Apple would make the new accessories, for the variety of reaons already stated.

[MattG]

Originally posted by arn
Well, depending on how you piece the rumors together...

The ability for Apple to offer songs to be "borrowed" in their entirety. Either limiting the # of plays or the # of days it can be played.

Here's a speculative article on how this could be accomplished:

http://www.chaosmint.com/macintosh/articles/itunes-listener-loans.shtml

arn Hmm...while this would be a cool idea, I doubt it will happen. Listening to the last two iTunes keynotes, Steve seems to be pretty down on the idea of "renting" music.

[FosterKanig]

Since rumors are hazy, couldn't listener loans = gift certificates and allowance. I know it is not "loans" but the info could have gotten messed up through the pipe line.

[macphoria]

I don't know what kind of performance one can expect from headphone using BlueTooth, but it certainly sounds promising.

[achmafooma]

Originally posted by MattG
Hmm...while this would be a cool idea, I doubt it will happen. Listening to the last two iTunes keynotes, Steve seems to be pretty down on the idea of "renting" music.
Yeah, but rather than renting this would be more like borrowing a CD... (hence 'listener loans'). I'm not sure it goes against what Steve has been saying (which is more directed at subscription services--I don't think you'd have to pay anything for a listener loan).

It would be nice, I think, if you could download a song/album in its entirety and listen to it once or twice before deciding whether it's worth any money.

Obviously, it could be pirated... but most people aren't going to bother. Letting people check out a CD for one listen--akin to borrowing it from a friend before buying it yourself--would probably increase sales in the long run.

I might buy a song if the 30 second preview sounds like a song I could love. I will DEFINITELY buy a song if I hear the whole thing and love it.

[arn]

Originally posted by MattG
Hmm...while this would be a cool idea, I doubt it will happen. Listening to the last two iTunes keynotes, Steve seems to be pretty down on the idea of "renting" music.

I assume it would be for free.

arn

[Macco]

How about Apple makes the iPod system software extensible, so that third parties can write their own applications? That way, companies would be free to create whatever accessories they thought would sell, and not be limited by Apple's firmware upgrades.

[Jerry Spoon]

Originally posted by achmafooma
It would be nice, I think, if you could download a song/album in its entirety and listen to it once or twice before deciding whether it's worth any money.

Obviously, it could be pirated... but most people aren't going to bother. Letting people check out a CD for one listen--akin to borrowing it from a friend before buying it yourself--would probably increase sales in the long run.

I might buy a song if the 30 second preview sounds like a song I could love. I will DEFINITELY buy a song if I hear the whole thing and love it.

I think that's what the guy who created Napster said a few months before they shut him down.

[jbtule]

Originally posted by arn
Well, depending on how you piece the rumors together...

The ability for Apple to offer songs to be "borrowed" in their entirety. Either limiting the # of plays or the # of days it can be played.

Here's a speculative article on how this could be accomplished:

http://www.chaosmint.com/macintosh/articles/itunes-listener-loans.shtml

arn

I think when apple is offering songs for only 99¢ and high quality 30 sec previews, doing a free loan of a song from apple is a little excessive and doesn't promote buying of songs. However, what if I would like a friend of mine to hear a song i own, and I can convert my purchased song into a listener loan that is limited by # of plays or the # of days and i can send it to them electronically, if they like the song when the time is up and they click to play it, they have the option of buying the song from the apple music store to keep playing. So as opposed to just getting loans from apple, now someone would have had to bought the song, and the song is now something that person whose receiving the loaner file probably hadn't heard or thought of buying before and gets a chance to really enjoy it, and unlike a loaner provide by apple which would end up being a song that a user is actively wanting for some reason or another, the user would probably would have just paid the 99¢ with just the 30sec preview.

[Doctor Q]

How about allowing people to sell "used" tunes or albums back to the Apple Store for a partial refund, as brick and mortar stores allow with audio CDs? The songs you return would be deauthorized and you get a credit that you can apply to new purchases.

[jbtule]

Originally posted by Doctor Q
How about allowing people to sell "used" tunes or albums back to the Apple Store for a partial refund, as brick and mortar stores allow with audio CDs? The songs you return would be deauthorized and you get a credit that you can apply to new purchases.

Get a partial refund and then restore your song from your backup copy.

[.jason]

I'm still hoping for a "home stereo" dock. I would like it to be able to power the ipod, have i/r remote, and A/V output to a home stereo receiver. The video portion being an on-screen display of what you can see on the ipod screen. It would completely replace the need for a cd player in my home theatre setup. It could come in a couple of form factors: 1) about like the current dock or 2) a component stereo form factor. The thing I like about this is that it's not far fetched at all, everything but the OSD is available today.

[Macco]

Originally posted by Doctor Q
How about allowing people to sell "used" tunes or albums back to the Apple Store for a partial refund, as brick and mortar stores allow with audio CDs? The songs you return would be deauthorized and you get a credit that you can apply to new purchases.

The problem with this analogy is that the CD stores buy back the CDs and then sell them to new customers, thus making money. A purely electronical store, such as the iTMS, sells content that is infinitely reproducible. Therefore, it wouldn't benefit at all from buying back your "used" music, unless Apple could somehow work out a way in which the record companies would give money back to Apple for every return... but I doubt that this would work very well. Especially considering that it would be hard to validate that you had gotten rid of this music from all of the iPods and other computers you transfered it to, in addition the CDs you might have burned it to.

[obeygiant]

So..... WHO was wrong about the iTunes rumors this time?......

[walkingmac]

Just reading some of your comments and thoughts and these made me think....

What accessories has Apple made for the iPod?

A quick glance (atleast thats all I did) at the 'cool accessories' part of the iPod site shows that apple really has not made hardly any accessories for their product. I have no doubt they could do it, or that if they did they would totally kick a**. I think they intentially do not make these awesome accessories so that the 'other guys' can get in on the action.

Lets be honest and realistic.... if you had your choice between an Apple or Belkin accessory, or even Griffen for that matter, which would you choose? We all 9/10 times (depending on features of the product) would pick the Apple product for our prized iPods, hands down. Even if that ment spending the extra 20 bucks. That desn't leave much room for other makers does it. I think Apple only goes into such ventures when no one else is developing a solution (IE.... FCP, DVDSP, the iPod itself, iTMS, etc...)

Just my thoughts... I could be wrong.

[jaykk]

i think the rumour about "loaner music" is nothing but the Pepsi deal.. 1 mill free songs to try it out.

[arn]

Originally posted by obeygiant
So..... WHO was wrong about the iTunes rumors this time?......

don't people read the thread they are posting in?

http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/10/20031019203845.shtml

[walkingmac]

Originally posted by jaykk
i think the rumour about "loaner music" is nothing but the Pepsi deal.. 1 mill free songs to try it out.

I don't think so.... key words there were 'try out'. the pepsi deal is a give away.. not a loan

[arn]

no, in my opinion: listener loans, itunes 5 etc... were simply wrong. You can't fit them into anything that came out.

arn

[Cochrane]

You know what I dislike? The Picture-Importer. I would have bought this thing in an instant - but it does not work with my odl iPod. As I think that the old looks better and I do not need any other new feature I will not buy a new one so I cannot import this. I would be rather surprised if it would have not been possible to make this thing in a way that old iPods (with new software) could use it. Too bad.

Another thing: We're due to have 2-Button Mice from Apple any time soon. Because, when someone asked Apple (it was on page 2, but that does not seem to be in the archives) about 2-Button mice they responded: When Steve Jobs leaves the company or hell freezes over. Now, Steve is still there, but hell froze over as Apple claims itself big on it's website. OK, that's maybe not that serious, but an interesting thought.

[walkingmac]

Originally posted by arn
no, in my opinion: listener loans, itunes 5 etc... were simply wrong. You can't fit them into anything that came out.

arn

Tru... good point

[Doctor Q]

Originally posted by jbtule
Get a partial refund and then restore your song from your backup copy. Originally posted by Macco
The problem with this analogy is that the CD stores buy back the CDs and then sell them to new customers, thus making money. A purely electronical store, such as the iTMS, sells content that is infinitely reproducible. Therefore, it wouldn't benefit at all from buying back your "used" music, unless Apple could somehow work out a way in which the record companies would give money back to Apple for every return... but I doubt that this would work very well. Especially considering that it would be hard to validate that you had gotten rid of this music from all of the iPods and other computers you transfered it to, in addition the CDs you might have burned it to. I doubt there is a foolproof way to solve the technical issue (same with the currently licensing), but I think it could be made to work for most customers most of the time. For example, iTunes and the ITMS could know which songs you no longer own, and anytime you connect to the store or your iPod they can synchronize their information and act accordingly. I understand Macco's point. The reason I brought up the idea, however, is that letting you sell back music is similar in principal to letting you rent music. The only difference to the user is whether you decide ahead of time to keep it for only a certain amount of time or plays, or you decide that later.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by Cochrane
Another thing: We're due to have 2-Button Mice from Apple any time soon. Because, when someone asked Apple (it was on page 2, but that does not seem to be in the archives) about 2-Button mice they responded: When Steve Jobs leaves the company or hell freezes over. Now, Steve is still there, but hell froze over as Apple claims itself big on it's website. OK, that's maybe not that serious, but an interesting thought.

LOL.

Apple: "Hell Didn't Actually Freeze Over"
AP: Apple Computer announced today that despite the release of iTunes for Windows, hell did not actually freeze over. This announcement was intended to stem the tide of ridiculous Mac rumors that were formerly in the "Until Hell Freezes Over" category.

The response was automatic. Ryan Meader of Mac OS Rumors said, "Crap, there go the Apple PDA rumors" while ThinkSecret's Nick dePlume said, "I was about to post the first interesting rumor in years for ThinkSecret, but unfortunately, Apple's announcement has indicated to me that Disney is not buying Apple."

Other rumor site proprietors took a different stance, however. Arnold Kim of MacRumors, back from a hard day's work on the MacRumors Forums battling improbably rumors, hailed the announcement as a godsend, remarking, "I knew it was getting out of hand when we got reports of new PowerBooks on Tuesday."

[obeygiant]

Originally posted by arn
don't people read the thread they are posting in?

http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/10/20031019203845.shtml

Yes, they do...

[Archmage]

I was imagining listener loans to be more like this:

1) User A has Song 1 (that he bought with the iTMS) and wants User B, three states over, to listen to it.

2) User A chooses Song 1 in his library and clicks "Loan to Friend". He enters in his friend's email address/apple ID.

3) At Apple, an email is generated stating something like:

Dear User B,

Your friend, User A, would like you to hear this song. Click the link below to download a time-limited copy of this song, in pristine quality. You can listen to this song five times*. If you try to listen to the song a sixth time, you will be taken to the iTunes Music Store entry for that song. If you like it, we hope you consider purchasing this song.

Song Title (itms://song.aac)

*Loaned songs cannot be burned to a CD.


4) User B clicks the link in the email he got from Apple and the iTunes Music Store launches. He clicks the "Download Now" link.

5) User B enjoys said song and decides to buy it.

User A is happy; User B is happy; Apple is happy.

What more could you ask for?

[walkingmac]

Originally posted by Archmage
I was imagining listener loans to be more like this:

1) User A has Song 1 (that he bought with the iTMS) and wants User B, three states over, to listen to it.

2) User A chooses Song 1 in his library and clicks "Loan to Friend". He enters in his friend's email address/apple ID.

3) At Apple, an email is generated stating something like:


4) User B clicks the link in the email he got from Apple and the iTunes Music Store launches. He clicks the "Download Now" link.

5) User B enjoys said song and decides to buy it.

User A is happy; User B is happy; Apple is happy.

What more could you ask for?

Great idea... but there is a problem with recording to tape (if some people still do that via the comp sound out, or apps like wiretap.

If apple could get around the more important problem of recording via an app like wiretap, then it could work

[walkingmac]

looking at it again though.. if they really want the song... there is always the P2P option... I guess it is sort of a catch 22. If they r going to get it, maybe they will spend the buck instead of P2P...

Maybe it could be an option for iTMS members who have bought an x amount of songs. Sort of showing a record of stability or that they can sorta be trusted.

[JGowan]

We all better get used to our 30 second previews. We will never get these LOANS of which this rumor speaks.

Apple has worked too ****** hard to get the record companies to get behind them to do something like this that would obviously piss them off.

There are several software packages out there that will copy audio straight from the computer. Apple and the rest of the affected parties are not going to allow this "loaning". They know they can't trust us.

"Audio Hijack Pro" is my favorite.
http://www.rogueamoeba.com

[JGowan]

Originally posted by achmafooma
I might buy a song if the 30 second preview sounds like a song I could love. I will DEFINITELY buy a song if I hear the whole thing and love it. Man, talk about looking the gift horse in the mouth. Thirty seconds might be better if it was a minute, but it's 30 seconds more than Apple could've done. 300,000 songs... that's a lot of work to get us a 30 second preview (complete with fade-in/outs)

Let's be grateful for what we've got. A whole listen is ridiculous. What would be your incentive to actually BUY the song, if you could just go into the store ANY TIME YOU WANT and listen to the whole thing.

Maybe listening to the whole album makes sense in a VIRGIN MEGASTORE but it makes NO SENSE at the ITUNES MUSIC STORE -- which is in your own house.... did you forget about that part?

[QFace]

i like downloading songs on Kazaa better... it's free

[Doctor Q]

Whether or not it could work, I vote NO on song loaners. Apple should not complicate the model. At least not this year.

[pjtro2]

Originally posted by QFace
i like downloading songs on Kazaa better... it's free

I'm sure the artists who worked hard to bring you that music would beg to differ.

[MattG]

Originally posted by pjtro2
I'm sure the artists who worked hard to bring you that music would beg to differ. Don't feed the PC trolls!

[pjtro2]

Originally posted by MattG
Don't feed the PC trolls!

i was trying to be constructive. I'm an avid Mac fan and user, but I grew up on a PC so I don't really get into the Mac Vs. PC cat-fight.. It leads to too much school-yard behaviour and long winded, off topic threads.

Speaking of which... what were we talking about? :confused:

[the_mole1314]

I really hope that they have DVD-Audio support for iTunes 5 and then record it to the iPod. But anyway, mabey they'll have iTunes 5 out for the Superbowl Pepsi promotion so you can enter in the password for your free songs.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by Doctor Q
How about allowing people to sell "used" tunes or albums back to the Apple Store for a partial refund, as brick and mortar stores allow with audio CDs? The songs you return would be deauthorized and you get a credit that you can apply to new purchases.

In the iTMS model individual songs are not authorized or deauthorized. Songs are sold to an account (your Apple ID or .Mac account ID), and the account is authorized or deauthorized on a specific PC. Just as there is no feasible way to sell your copy of Abba's Greatest Hits to a gullible sucker, there's also no way to sell it back to iTMS. That's a system design-level fault, not something that can be fixed easily or perhaps even at all.

[Doctor Q]

Originally posted by jettredmont
Just as there is no feasible way to sell your copy of Abba's Greatest Hits to a gullible sucker, there's also no way to sell it back to iTMS.Sorry. Your reverse psychology won't work with me, jettredmont. I'll keep my Abba album thank you very much.

(Doctor Q walks down the street singing "You are the Dancing Queen, young and sweet, only seventeen..." way too loudly for somebody in a public place.)

[Macco]

Originally posted by Doctor Q
(Doctor Q walks down the street singing "You are the Dancing Queen, young and sweet, only seventeen..." way too loudly for somebody in a public place.)
Anyone singing ABBA anywhere is singing it too loud.