Sad ramblings of an almost Apple switcher...

[88MVP]

Got sick of waiting for updated MBP's... contemplated buying the current SR model, but then realized that PC manufacturer's were drastically cutting their prices on current Merom-based models to clear way for Penryn's while Apple still wanted me to pay the same price that the current machines cost many months ago....

So I got an XPS M1530 2.4 with 4 gigs of ram and a 200GB 7200k HDD for a grand less than a MBP would have cost me.

This leads me to my general sad ramblings/rants/laments about Apple.

I know a lot of Mac users would buy a Mac no matter what they cost, but I find it really hard to believe that Apple couldn't make a LOT more money if they were a bit more price-competetive (for example, sales/discounts on older technology when everyone knows a refresh is coming sometime soon). They use the same intel processors & chipsets and nVidia graphics chips as everyone else now. I, for one, would have jumped all over a MBP if it was only a few hundred more than an identically specced Dell or HP, instead of a grand.

Also, I know plenty of people who would be interested in giving OS X a go if there was a legal way to run it on any old PC hardware. I'd dual-boot on all my computers in a heartbeat. Yes, there'd be the headaches of additional driver support, but if OS X is as great as everyone claims I have to imagine that Apple could take a large chunk out of Windows' market share. The people at Microsoft don't seem to mind selling additional licenses for bootcamp partitions, why doesn't Apple do the same and make a handsome profit?

That's all I have. I'm a bitter college student who wanted the fun of a Mac but his responsible budget planning wouldn't allow for it. And the petulent 3 year-old child in me blames Steve Jobs for this.




And before someone reads this as some kind of serious shot at Apple and flames me, it's not. I really liked the MBP, hence my posting here the last few weeks. Thanks to those who gave me advice when I was asking about MBP's. Carry on, Apple users. I'll join you someday when I get a grown-up job that doesn't involve an hourly wage.

[heatmiser]

Hey, I'd have done the same thing. Well, actually, I'd have gone with a T61, most likely, but in the end, we've each got to decide what's worth our money. No need to apologize. :cool:

[samh004]

If you really want a mac you can probably sell that on when the new MBP comes out.

[HLdan]

The OP's thread post is stupid. Telling the forum that he was almost a switcher but he found a Dell more suitable for him tells us what???
This forum is for helping people in terms of Macintosh, not to tell us that you just picked up the latest PC because Apple's prices weren't part of your diet. What did you want us to say??? Pointless thread.:rolleyes:

[bigbadnewill]

The OP's thread post is stupid. Telling the forum that he was almost a switcher but he found a Dell more suitable for him tells us what???
This forum is for helping people in terms of Macintosh, not to tell us that you just picked up the latest PC because Apple's prices weren't part of your diet. What did you want us to say??? Pointless thread.:rolleyes:

To be fair though,the op also stated how he thinks apples are over priced,which is quite a common theme in there forums,especially the macbook air recently.

So i dont think its pointless,unless u have no answer as to why apples are far more expensive,and also as to why they refuse to drop prices on old products!

[HLdan]

To be fair though,the op also stated how he thinks apples are over priced,which is quite a common theme in there forums,especially the macbook air recently.

So i dont think its pointless,unless u have no answer as to why apples are far more expensive,and also as to why they refuse to drop prices on old products!

I stand by what I say, what are we suppose to say to the OP? He pointed out his feelings about Apple's prices and bought a Dell. So what now? We can't do anything about Apple's prices, either buy Apple or buy something else. The OP chose to buy something else that doesn't pertain to this forum and we can't help him about his new Dell so what's the point of his thread?

[bigbadnewill]

I stand by what I say, what are we suppose to say to the OP? He pointed out his feelings about Apple's prices and bought a Dell. So what now? We can't do anything about Apple's prices, either buy Apple or buy something else. The OP chose to buy something else that doesn't pertain to this forum and we can't help him about his new Dell so what's the point of his thread?

While I do agree with what you're saying to some degree there are far more pointless threads from people on this forum...such as "Just bought a new macbook" where all the OP does is tell us how they bought one, not even ask for any advice etc.

The OP here asked about portability of OS x onto windows, and why it's never done etc also. There are questions to be answered and discussions to be had with these questions.

Anyways, lets get back onto more interesting stuff...like the idea of it being Tuesday, and the SLIGHT possibility of a MBP update :D

[edesignuk]

The OP's thread post is stupid. Telling the forum that he was almost a switcher but he found a Dell more suitable for him tells us what???
This forum is for helping people in terms of Macintosh, not to tell us that you just picked up the latest PC because Apple's prices weren't part of your diet. What did you want us to say??? Pointless thread.:rolleyes:

I stand by what I say, what are we suppose to say to the OP? He pointed out his feelings about Apple's prices and bought a Dell. So what now? We can't do anything about Apple's prices, either buy Apple or buy something else. The OP chose to buy something else that doesn't pertain to this forum and we can't help him about his new Dell so what's the point of his thread?Maybe this fact passed you by, but half of the threads on here are pointless or redundant, in the grand scheme of things this one isn't bad. The OP has made some fair, reasonable comments. They haven't trolled or posted flame bait. No need to be rude. :rolleyes:

[jaywong87]

The OP's thread post is stupid. Telling the forum that he was almost a switcher but he found a Dell more suitable for him tells us what???
This forum is for helping people in terms of Macintosh, not to tell us that you just picked up the latest PC because Apple's prices weren't part of your diet. What did you want us to say??? Pointless thread.:rolleyes:

Last I read, this forum's name is: "Macbook, Macbook Air, Macbook Pro" not "Macbook, MBP Help," he's free to talk about anything related to the MB. His original thread's tone didnt seem like it was a pointless bash at all, and hes just stating something that a lot of people feel. If no one speaks up, no one will be heard.

I for one, agree that Apple products are crazy expensive, but I guess you pay for exclusivity. I dont mind paying this much for my Mac, I like that my Powerbook ran like the day I bought it after 2 years w/ no defrag or any other annual maintenance. But money is money, and it is, at least in my opinion, way overpriced.

[tanjacob]

The XPS M1530 is indeed priced very attractively. I live in Singapore and an high-end MBP 15" costs SGD4300 and yet the M1530 with a Blue Ray drive costs SGD3400 with similar specs. It is very tempting for switchers to hold back.

[miniConvert]

I looked at Dell's and other brands of laptop before settling for definite on my MacBook Pro (SR). I made the right choice for me. In fact, I think the Mac could have been 3x more expensive than any of the competition and still represented value for money in terms of what I need from the operating system, the form factor and compatibility with my other Macs.

OS X, to me, is almost invaluable.

[Blue Velvet]

Pointless thread.:rolleyes:

Pointless post... easy, tiger.

[AdeFowler]

I know a lot of Mac users would buy a Mac no matter what they cost
Bingo! And Apple will never introduce 'cheap' computers whilst this situation exists.

[akadmon]

Thanks for this post. Now I won't need to post the same exact thing in early March, which is what I would have (well, not really, not really have) to do if the MBP is not updated by the end of February. I have come to the same exact conclusion as the OP about the value of the current MBP relative to what's available in PC land.

[zepharus]

Got sick of waiting for updated MBP's... contemplated buying the current SR model, but then realized that PC manufacturer's were drastically cutting their prices on current Merom-based models to clear way for Penryn's while Apple still wanted me to pay the same price that the current machines cost many months ago....

So I got an XPS M1530 2.4 with 4 gigs of ram and a 200GB 7200k HDD for a grand less than a MBP would have cost me.

This leads me to my general sad ramblings/rants/laments about Apple.

I know a lot of Mac users would buy a Mac no matter what they cost, but I find it really hard to believe that Apple couldn't make a LOT more money if they were a bit more price-competetive (for example, sales/discounts on older technology when everyone knows a refresh is coming sometime soon). They use the same intel processors & chipsets and nVidia graphics chips as everyone else now. I, for one, would have jumped all over a MBP if it was only a few hundred more than an identically specced Dell or HP, instead of a grand.

Also, I know plenty of people who would be interested in giving OS X a go if there was a legal way to run it on any old PC hardware. I'd dual-boot on all my computers in a heartbeat. Yes, there'd be the headaches of additional driver support, but if OS X is as great as everyone claims I have to imagine that Apple could take a large chunk out of Windows' market share. The people at Microsoft don't seem to mind selling additional licenses for bootcamp partitions, why doesn't Apple do the same and make a handsome profit?

That's all I have. I'm a bitter college student who wanted the fun of a Mac but his responsible budget planning wouldn't allow for it. And the petulent 3 year-old child in me blames Steve Jobs for this.




And before someone reads this as some kind of serious shot at Apple and flames me, it's not. I really liked the MBP, hence my posting here the last few weeks. Thanks to those who gave me advice when I was asking about MBP's. Carry on, Apple users. I'll join you someday when I get a grown-up job that doesn't involve an hourly wage.

Apple has an $18 B I L L I O N cash reserve. CASH. They attained this using the current business model of very high margin products. This isnt going to change as im quite sure they are pleased with business. What exactely do you think a MBP costs to manufacture? I have heard that is less than $600... if thats true... oh my..

[dimme]

I am in a similar spot. I need (want) a new tower. But to spend $3000+ on one for a hobby is out of the question. And an iMac may not cut it for me so I may be building my own system. Once I am in Photoshop or Lightroom it does not matter what OS I am on.

[bijou]

Why are ranting posts such as this allowed on a board which is supposed to be informational support for people who own an Apple product? I don't get it.

I would have loved to bought a Lexus but only had a Honda budget, but that didn't drive me to post about it on a Lexus support forum.:(

[akadmon]

Why are ranting posts such as this allowed on a board which is supposed to be informational support for people who own an Apple product? I don't get it.



There is a small chance someone at Apple will hear what their customers (in this case would be customers) have to say about Apple's business practices. Whether they (Apple) will listen is another matter, but it doesn't hurt trying to get their attention :cool: And it's so damned therapeutic! I feel a lot better every time I issue a written threat to buy a Dell :D

[wildmilne]

The OP's thread post is stupid. Telling the forum that he was almost a switcher but he found a Dell more suitable for him tells us what???
This forum is for helping people in terms of Macintosh, not to tell us that you just picked up the latest PC because Apple's prices weren't part of your diet. What did you want us to say??? Pointless thread.:rolleyes:

Pointless? Apple should be reading this, they're losing sales..as another potential switcher i cant swallow the $1000 price difference for the same hardware either, i'm not THAT excited to switch. They either need to lower the price or get their new products out the door.

[HLdan]

There is a small chance someone at Apple will hear what their customers (in this case would be customers) have to say about Apple's business practices. Whether they (Apple) will listen is another matter, but it doesn't hurt trying to get their attention :cool: And it's so damned therapeutic! I feel a lot better every time I issue a written threat to buy a Dell :D

Yeah right, Apple is well aware people think their prices are too high after years of people saying it. Have they lowered their notebook prices? No. Why? Why should they? They make a great computer, they make it so well they have a acquired many PC switchers.
The OP is the one that's scrambled. First he says he was tired of waiting for the new MBP's, well at this point he had already made up his mind to spend this amount of money.
Then he sees a Dell and buys it. How is he helping anyone on this forum? This is a Mac forum and we use Mac OS X. He could have helped many people if he found Apple deals from a reseller that would benefit all of us.
Telling us about his new Dell deal doesn't help me, I don't want a Dell, I only want a supported OS X computer.

Okay, he's crying about Apple's prices, he buys what he can afford through Dell, what did he need to tell us for? My reaction would be the same reaction if I went to a Windows forum and told them that I bought a Mac because Windows didn't cut it for me and there was nothing in the PC world that would make me decide otherwise.
What good was this telling a Windows forum?

IMHO Apple is in a much better position to charge what they charge because they are offering something different than anyone else.

What's Sony's excuse, they charge more for their computers than Apple and their machines are common Windows machines just like the Dell.

[clevin]

a board which is supposed to be informational support for people who own an Apple product? I don't get it.


is that official explanation?

[bijou]

Last time I checked Apple's sales are through the roof, so they're not losing sales. Windoze will always be ahead of Apple's market share in regards to selling computers, that's just a fact.

My point is that people are using THIS forum as a blog for pontificating/complaining about a product they really never had any intention of purchasing, but just want the attention of forum users (whether it is positive or negative) to justify their decision.

I think you get what you pay for when it comes to Apple products. Excellence in design, form and function. When my funds were low I purchased a $300 used Cube. When the funds increased, then the MBP was purchased. I've had the cheapo POS Dells, Gateways and Toshibas, too. You really do get what you pay for. Plus, I was switched because of an operating system which is far superior in managing my workflow, not because of hardware.

[bijou]

is that official explanation?

Either that or I just took a wrong turn and thought this board was supposed to be support for those who actually have the product or are in the process of getting it.

Silly me for assuming wrong!

[bijou]

I am in a similar spot. I need (want) a new tower. But to spend $3000+ on one for a hobby is out of the question. And an iMac may not cut it for me so I may be building my own system. Once I am in Photoshop or Lightroom it does not matter what OS I am on.

True, but still I appreciate the integration of Apple's operating system when using these apps as well.

BTW, a maxed-out Mini handles PS and Lightroom quite admirably. We just picked one up for our oldest teenager to make the pc/mac switch and she's very impressed.

[CashGap]

Pointless? Apple should be reading this, they're losing sales..as another potential switcher i cant swallow the $1000 price difference for the same hardware either, i'm not THAT excited to switch. They either need to lower the price or get their new products out the door.

Huh? I thought they were growing faster than anyone? They can't change strategies to chase a few strays.

The ones who think "Macs are more expensive" are what we'd call real analytical, and might not be worth chasing.

Apple has market discipline, and that's making them a bundle.

[skinnylegs]

My point is that people are using THIS forum as a blog for pontificating/complaining about a product they really never had any intention of purchasingAgreed.....but not this time.

I think the OP's sentiments echo those of many other would-be switchers. The reality is that users pay a premium for Apple hardware/OS X. I don't think that is even arguable.

[Cromulent]

Got sick of waiting for updated MBP's... contemplated buying the current SR model, but then realized that PC manufacturer's were drastically cutting their prices on current Merom-based models to clear way for Penryn's while Apple still wanted me to pay the same price that the current machines cost many months ago....

So I got an XPS M1530 2.4 with 4 gigs of ram and a 200GB 7200k HDD for a grand less than a MBP would have cost me.

It sounds like you made the intelligent choice to be honest.

This leads me to my general sad ramblings/rants/laments about Apple.

I know a lot of Mac users would buy a Mac no matter what they cost, but I find it really hard to believe that Apple couldn't make a LOT more money if they were a bit more price-competetive (for example, sales/discounts on older technology when everyone knows a refresh is coming sometime soon). They use the same intel processors & chipsets and nVidia graphics chips as everyone else now. I, for one, would have jumped all over a MBP if it was only a few hundred more than an identically specced Dell or HP, instead of a grand.

I would imagine that Apple are aiming to seperate themselves from the likes of HP and Dell. Now I know it makes no sense at all but people automatically tend to think that the more expensive item is better. Look in any shop, you just need to put the word luxury in the title and people will pay a premium for it regardless of how good the cheaper options are.

If Apple move too close to Dell and HP they risk being thrown in with every other PC manuafacturer and that is a tough market to fight in.

Also, I know plenty of people who would be interested in giving OS X a go if there was a legal way to run it on any old PC hardware. I'd dual-boot on all my computers in a heartbeat. Yes, there'd be the headaches of additional driver support, but if OS X is as great as everyone claims I have to imagine that Apple could take a large chunk out of Windows' market share. The people at Microsoft don't seem to mind selling additional licenses for bootcamp partitions, why doesn't Apple do the same and make a handsome profit?

Mainly because Apple makes the vast majority of its profit from hardware sales. If they allowed Mac OS X to be installed on generic PCs then a large part of their profit margin would evaporate over night.

[bijou]

Agreed.....but not this time.

I think the OP's sentiments echo those of many other would-be switchers. The reality is that users pay a premium for Apple hardware/OS X. I don't think that is even arguable.

No, it's not. Is this a switcher's forum or did I take a wrong turn?
I really do tire of people arguing about the hardware turning them off. I buy Apple because of the software, the hardware just pulls it all together in a neat little package for my working purposes.

Ok, MY rant is finished now.;)

[masse]

If I never had a mac..I'd probably never get one. I just happened to stumble across my current machine. You can use windows fine until you've used osx. But once you've used osx...Or even most linux distributions do the trick. I'd consider a T-61...some of the HP laptops are nice. Some suck. It's luck of the draw.

[skinnylegs]

I buy Apple because of the software, the hardware just pulls it all together in a neat little package for my working purposes.I couldn't agree with you more. If OS X required a toaster then you better believe I'd have one sitting on my desk. LOL I love the looks of my iMac but honestly, it's all about the software/OS as far as I'm concerned.

[Thomas Davie]

I'm almost a switcher (gave away my last desktop to my girlfriend, but am holding on to my laptop until after I've got an iMac and Macbook), and I accept that the prices of Macs will be higher. I want them to be lower, but they aint. The cost of the Macs is, for me, entirely offset by the fact that I refuse to have anything to do with supporting Vista. In other words, no Vista is of greater value to me than the higher price of the Macs.

I'm sold; all it took was Microsoft.

Tom

[snyderjw]

No, it's not. Is this a switcher's forum or did I take a wrong turn?
I really do tire of people arguing about the hardware turning them off. I buy Apple because of the software, the hardware just pulls it all together in a neat little package for my working purposes.

Ok, MY rant is finished now.;)

I am sick of this argument. I know that is true for a lot of LONG time Mac people, but as someone who switched in 2002 and was a dedicated system builder on the PC side before that, I have to say you are flat out wrong about how people react to Apple as a hardware company. Apple offers the best software on the planet, and that is why 90% of switchers switch. Their hardware is good, great maybe when it first comes out. The problem is that now that they are Intel like everyone else it spends 60% of its time outdated as compared to its cheaper competitors. I continue to argue that if Apple sold its OS seperately, even for $500, twice as many people would switch and at that price it would hardly cannibalize their hardware business.

[harcosparky]

If I never had a mac..I'd probably never get one. I just happened to stumble across my current machine. You can use windows fine until you've used osx. But once you've used osx...Or even most linux distributions do the trick. I'd consider a T-61...some of the HP laptops are nice. Some suck. It's luck of the draw.

Until 3 years ago I never owned a Mac ... had to use them at an employers once for a period of a year but that THAT time I thanked god I was an MSCE/CNE. In my work I used to buy a new notebook every year in order to keep up with technology and to avoid issues because I was a rough user.

I retired from IT, and the first year after I went looking for a new notebook.

Prior to this I was buying HP Omnibooks, these were not sold in the normal retail channel and were " network certified ". Those who worked with Windows NT will know what that meant. The Omnibook was expensive but well built, or at least it used to be.

Fast Forward to " no longer working in IT and trying to buy a RETAIL notebook "

I went to Best Buy, Circuit City, and CompUSA looking for a new notebook. Nothing they showed me in the consumer line was good enough, I was after feel, fit and finish.

The last clerk I dealt with at CompUSA told me to " wait here a minute " and he went off to the other side of the store. He came back with a nice aluminum notebook and told me to take a look. Once I put it in my hands and opened it up, my decision was made. I just had to OWN that Apple 15" Powerbook. He warned me that converting over might not be easy, he was right it took me about a month to be totally on the Powerbook for my new line of work. This was about 3 years ago and a decision I will NEVER regret.

Remember I said I was buying a new notebook every year, well I kept that Powerbook for over 2 years. A year after buying the Powerbook my wife gave me the money to buy a new notebook, after all I was buying a new one annually for years. Well I did not tell here I didn't need a new one, instead I went to the Apple Store and bought a G5 Dual-core Powermac. :D

When the Powerbook was 2 years old I sold it and bought a G5 iMac for 'family' use.

Today the entire family is on Mac computers, and I have to tell you ...

Since the total conversion I have not had to do ANY work on the kids computers, no reinstalls, no " System Restore ". The Apples JUST WORK and thats good enough for me!!!!

[mrtune]

The OP has a very good point and I agree fully. I am a recent switcher. I did not switch due to problems with windows computers. I wanted to switch for the sake of trying something new. As an iPod and iPhone user I thought it would make sense to give apple computers a shot. Having bootcamp as a safety net was the deal closer for me. In the market for a new laptop I started doing some comparison pricing. I wanted something light and portable. I compared the MacBook to the XPS 1330. Spec for spec they are price very similar, so I made the switch and have been very happy with my choice! Had the MacBook been alot more expensive I would have passed up on it.

It's a good thing I wasn't looking for a bigger more capable machine though, because the 15" MacBook pro and the XPS 1530 are nowhere near each other. I would have never been able to justify the price difference between them and would have ended up with another windows machine.

The price difference between the MacBook and the MacBook pro is too great IMO.

[Consultant]

To be fair though,the op also stated how he thinks apples are over priced,which is quite a common theme in there forums,especially the macbook air recently.

So i dont think its pointless,unless u have no answer as to why apples are far more expensive,and also as to why they refuse to drop prices on old products!

Do you know that, refering to the MacBook Air
"The price is competitive with other laptops in its market segment." [CNN.com]

Just because someone cannot afford a Ferrari does not mean it's overpriced.

As someone mentioned, you might be able to get something to have the same horse power as a Ferrari, it's not a Ferrari and it won't handle like a Ferrari.

One example why a mac is superior. Use Geekbench and benchmark same intel mac in OS X vs XP, the same computer running windows only has about 85% processing power of the same computer running OS X. (Vista is even slower than XP).

[Radio Monk33]

I can't believe the negativity of those who complain that this thread has no purpose here. Seriously, from a place where there are several hundred posts on a thread for people who want to be on a list to wait for a computer? Or here's my new computer yay! Heaven forbid anyone say anything negative about Apple..

I think it is a reasonable complaint. As it is, you're paying a huge amount for a MBP for technology that is getting rather dated. I'm willing to pay the Apple premium...when the line gets refreshed and I'll wait for it. It seems like a more reasonable value..

[akadmon]

The price difference between the MacBook and the MacBook pro is too great IMO.

Shhh -- don't say that! Apple might just raise the MB price to make you happy :rolleyes:

[heatmiser]

Concerning the posts that effectively said the hardware didn't matter, and that OS X was their favorite part of Apple, it's worth remembering that Apple is a hardware company first, and an OS company far, far, second. They make the lion's share of their money from selling the computers.

[greenmeanie]

I agree but put your flame suit on.

Got sick of waiting for updated MBP's... contemplated buying the current SR model, but then realized that PC manufacturer's were drastically cutting their prices on current Merom-based models to clear way for


Penryn's while Apple still wanted me to pay the same price that the current machines cost many months ago....

So I got an XPS M1530 2.4 with 4 gigs of ram and a 200GB 7200k HDD for a grand less than a MBP would have cost me.

This leads me to my general sad ramblings/rants/laments about Apple.

I know a lot of Mac users would buy a Mac no matter what they cost, but I find it really hard to believe that Apple couldn't make a LOT more money if they were a bit more price-competetive (for example, sales/discounts on older technology when everyone knows a refresh is coming sometime soon). They use the same intel processors & chipsets and nVidia graphics chips as everyone else now. I, for one, would have jumped all over a MBP if it was only a few hundred more than an identically specced Dell or HP, instead of a grand.

Also, I know plenty of people who would be interested in giving OS X a go if there was a legal way to run it on any old PC hardware. I'd dual-boot on all my computers in a heartbeat. Yes, there'd be the headaches of additional driver support, but if OS X is as great as everyone claims I have to imagine that Apple could take a large chunk out of Windows' market share. The people at Microsoft don't seem to mind selling additional licenses for bootcamp partitions, why doesn't Apple do the same and make a handsome profit?

That's all I have. I'm a bitter college student who wanted the fun of a Mac but his responsible budget planning wouldn't allow for it. And the petulent 3 year-old child in me blames Steve Jobs for this.




And before someone reads this as some kind of serious shot at Apple and flames me, it's not. I really liked the MBP, hence my posting here the last few weeks. Thanks to those who gave me advice when I was asking about MBP's. Carry on, Apple users. I'll join you someday when I get a grown-up job that doesn't involve an hourly wage.

[greenmeanie]

Most of the Rumors in here are pointless and always wrong. So whats your point?

The OP's thread post is stupid. Telling the forum that he was almost a switcher but he found a Dell more suitable for him tells us what???
This forum is for helping people in terms of Macintosh, not to tell us that you just picked up the latest PC because Apple's prices weren't part of your diet. What did you want us to say??? Pointless thread.:rolleyes:

[deputy_doofy]

I would gladly pay $1000 more for an Apple than a Dell/HP/Compaq/Sony.

Generally, Apple's quality is high (and yes, I've gotten a couple lemons) and I am amazed at the nonsense one must go through to get Windows XP (and Vista, most likely) set up to the point of usability.

That includes:
- Avast
- Hitman Pro or Spybot
- running an immediate defrag because, even after an inital install, things are already fragmented pretty badly
- uninstalling numerous trial software
- running regular scans because something still may have installed itself without your knowledge

I have heard the anecdotal evidence from people stating they don't use AV software on Windows and have never gotten malware, but they are the exception, not the rule.

Forget that. I'd much rather pay $2500 for an excellent, usable computer than $1000 for a computer that needs to be constantly watched with a baby monitor, real-time scans, and nightly or weekly scans.

[aiterum]

I would gladly pay $1000 more for an Apple than a Dell/HP/Compaq/Sony.

Generally, Apple's quality is high (and yes, I've gotten a couple lemons) and I am amazed at the nonsense one must go through to get Windows XP (and Vista, most likely) set up to the point of usability.

That includes:
- Avast
- Hitman Pro or Spybot
- running an immediate defrag because, even after an inital install, things are already fragmented pretty badly
- uninstalling numerous trial software
- running regular scans because something still may have installed itself without your knowledge

I have heard the anecdotal evidence from people stating they don't use AV software on Windows and have never gotten malware, but they are the exception, not the rule.

Forget that. I'd much rather pay $2500 for an excellent, usable computer than $1000 for a computer that needs to be constantly watched with a baby monitor, real-time scans, and nightly or weekly scans

obviously you have never used windows, or if you have, are a complete idiot about how you use the operating system. running status checks and making sure your computer is clean is a little something called maintence and you can't tell me that you don't check your mac every once and while. and if you know what you're doing, you shouldn't be having to do virus scans/spyware scans more than once a month (and even barely that)


also you must be super rich because you're talking a thousand dollars. for that price I'd pledge myself to use windows for the next 10 years (and hell, I might if they don't update the MBP soon)

[Virgil-TB2]

Pointless? Apple should be reading this, they're losing sales..as another potential switcher i cant swallow the $1000 price difference for the same hardware either, i'm not THAT excited to switch. They either need to lower the price or get their new products out the door.This is where I tend to agree with the guy dissing the original poster though. MacBook Pros are *not* 1000 bucks more than similarly speced hardware. The OP might have come across genuine and nice etc. but the intention of his post was to take a piece out of Apple and he exaggerated a bit to do it.

This *is* a Mac support forum, it's a community of Mac users and Mac lovers. However politely put, it's kind of lame to post to such a group with a message that "Macs are overpriced."

I certainly could have done without reading this thread and if I wasn't home on a snow day I probably wouldn't have. :(

[deputy_doofy]

obviously you have never used windows, or if you have, are a complete idiot about how you use the operating system. running status checks and making sure your computer is clean is a little something called maintence and you can't tell me that you don't check your mac every once and while. and if you know what you're doing, you shouldn't be having to do virus scans/spyware scans more than once a month (and even barely that)


also you must be super rich because you're talking a thousand dollars. for that price I'd pledge myself to use windows for the next 10 years (and hell, I might if they don't update the MBP soon)

Actually, I do IT support, so I know Windows. I even use Windows on occasion at home, since I have a partition installed with Bootcamp and Parallels.

Maintenance is one thing. If a Mac were a car, it'd be like checking your oil or going for your oil change every 3500 miles.

If Windows were a car, you'd have to check your engine and make sure it was working. Hey, is somebody hiding in your back seat? Did someone siphon your gas last night?

You shouldn't be making assumptions calling people idiots. And, while I'm not rich, what I buy is important. I'll pay for quality.

[aiterum]

This is where I tend to agree with the guy dissing the original poster though. MacBook Pros are *not* 1000 bucks more than similarly speced hardware. The OP might have come across genuine and nice etc. but the intention of his post was to take a piece out of Apple and he exaggerated a bit to do it.

This *is* a Mac support forum, it's a community of Mac users and Mac lovers. However politely put, it's kind of lame to post to such a group with a message that "Macs are overpriced."

I certainly could have done without reading this thread and if I wasn't home on a snow day I probably wouldn't have. :(

the price difference between an MBP and XPS of siimilar specifications (15.4", 2.4ghz, 256mb 8600) is around 800-850 dollars.

i'm not sure where this thousand dollar chepaer laptop is though, because I want one

[heatmiser]

This *is* a Mac support forum, it's a community of Mac users and Mac lovers. However politely put, it's kind of lame to post to such a group with a message that "Macs are overpriced."


There are dozens of posts alluding to the MBA being overpriced and underpowered compared to other laptops Apple sells. Should we mock those posters too? :D

[aiterum]

There are dozens of posts alluding to the MBA being overpriced and underpowered compared to other laptops Apple sells. Should we mock those posters too? :D

it's already being done

[Virgil-TB2]

There are dozens of posts alluding to the MBA being overpriced and underpowered compared to other laptops Apple sells. Should we mock those posters too? :DNot suggesting anyone mock or not mock, just saying that IMO it's a lame thing to do.

If I really wanted to mock the guy I would (hypothetically you understand), say that it shows a general weakness of character to do something he clearly doesn't want to do (if we believe the stuff about how he really would prefer the MacBook Pro), and then come here looking for a pat on the back or a tummy-rub about his failure.

Wah! :( :(

If on the other hand the guy he knew all along he couldn't afford the MacBook Pro, then he is just being disingenuous. So (again only IMO), lame either way.

[aiterum]

i don't know really

its not like in his original post he came off in anyway that was saying that apple is a bad company and flaming and that sort of thing

rather, he was just telling a story about how he felt about the current pricing, and was wondering what other people's opinons on the whole issue of it was. I, at least, didn't think that he came in here saying that what you think is wrong and here is the right thing instead. Rather, I feel it came off as a valid question, and people did openly flame and mock him out of pure mac and apple fanboy syndrome.

[88MVP]

This is where I tend to agree with the guy dissing the original poster though. MacBook Pros are *not* 1000 bucks more than similarly speced hardware. The OP might have come across genuine and nice etc. but the intention of his post was to take a piece out of Apple and he exaggerated a bit to do it.



Wow, I did not expect my OP to spark such a conversation. Again, I wasn't trying to start a flame or make a pointless post. I feel like there are a lot of people who would be willing to give Macs a shot if the premium weren't quite as large.

The "Ferrari vs. Honda" comparison is bunk - the Honda that's 50k cheaper doesn't have the same V12 engine under the hood.

I don't really have much to add beyond my intial post, but I wanted to respond to the suggestion that I exaggerated the price difference. Dell currently has $620 off of M1530's (I assume to clear out the Merom chips in advance of Penryn) and I was then able to add my educational discount on top of that (which is 12% as opposed to Apple's flat $200 on MBP's). All told, I got a laptop with better specs than the 2.4 MBP for $1,400. (Also, 3 year warranty included in the price, not an additional $250 like applecare) So including warranty, the price difference was actually just over $1,000....As much as I wanted to switch, I couldn't justify that right now. Maybe in a few years when I have a well-paying job, but not now.

Also, to those suggesting that I knew I couldn't afford an Apple all along and I was just whining: Originally I was willing to pay the extra, but that was before PC makers started slicing prices on the current models and the price difference became too big to ignore... It's not that I couldn't still afford a MBP if i was desperate for one, I just can no longer justify the price delta. (But you're right, I was whining :p )

Thanks to the people who recognized the point of my post. Maybe at some point Apple will realize that there's a lot more money to be had in licensing the OS than there is in hardware sales. I'll leave my posting at that, there's no need to continue posting here now that the Mac is officially out. Peace.

[terryblyth]

I'd rather OS X wasn't licensed to other computers. It's dead reliable, and I assume a lot of this is because it's tied to the hardware. As soon as it goes out to everybody else, crap WILL be written to go with the hardware which will cause all sorts of Windows-type errors damaging the OS's reputation.

[aiterum]

Wow, I did not expect my OP to spark such a conversation. Again, I wasn't trying to start a flame or make a pointless post. I feel like there are a lot of people who would be willing to give Macs a shot if the premium weren't quite as large.

The "Ferrari vs. Honda" comparison is bunk - the Honda that's 50k cheaper doesn't have the same V12 engine under the hood.

I don't really have much to add beyond my intial post, but I wanted to respond to the suggestion that I exaggerated the price difference. Dell currently has $620 off of M1530's (I assume to clear out the Merom chips in advance of Penryn) and I was then able to add my educational discount on top of that (which is 12% as opposed to Apple's flat $200 on MBP's). All told, I got a laptop with better specs than the 2.4 MBP for $1,400. (Also, 3 year warranty included in the price, not an additional $250 like applecare) So including warranty, the price difference was actually just over $1,000....As much as I wanted to switch, I couldn't justify that right now. Maybe in a few years when I have a well-paying job, but not now.

Also, to those suggesting that I knew I couldn't afford an Apple all along and I was just whining: Originally I was willing to pay the extra, but that was before PC makers started slicing prices on the current models and the price difference became too big to ignore... It's not that I couldn't still afford a MBP if i was desperate for one, I just can no longer justify the price delta. (But you're right, I was whining :p )

Thanks to the people who recognized the point of my post. Maybe at some point Apple will realize that there's a lot more money to be had in licensing the OS than there is in hardware sales. I'll leave my posting at that, there's no need to continue posting here now that the Mac is officially out. Peace.


wait you can't leave! people still want to tell you that PCs suck and then you are dumb for saving money

[kuwisdelu]

I'll agree that Macs are expensive.

But in general, I don't find them overpriced. You're paying for quality. The strong software-hardware integration that Apple uses is part of what makes OS X such a wonderful experience. If you would use OS X on just any computer, it would soon start running into the same problems as Windows. You let people run OS X on just any PC, and you'll get thousands of people complaining about how unstable it is and wondering why Apple doesn't do something about it. Personally, I think it's a good business model, and I hope Apple never does away with it, as long as they keep up their quality.

Macs may sometimes cost more spec-for-spec than many PC's, but they still usually end up lasting longer and performing better.

I can say from personal experience that you certainly don't have to be rich to spend an extra $1000 on a Mac than a PC with equal specs (and I doubt it's quite $1000, anyway, like many else here have pointed out). My girlfriend's had three laptops in the past year or so, while working a <$10 per hour job. Two of them were MacBooks and one of them was a PC. She bought the first MacBook first, but after her roommate broke it (her roommate was a bitch), she decided to get a PC laptop since it was cheaper, and didn't want to save up for a MacBook again. Well, when her roommate broke that one, too, she thought about which was more worth the money.... and saved up for a new MacBook again, which she still has (and doesn't have the roommate anymore, thank god).

I would never take $1000 to use Windows; especially not for another ten years. I know in that time, I would either spend much more than $1000 in repairs/replacements, or at the very least go through many, many >$1000 headaches. The Mac would definitely be worth it to me. When it's Mac vs. PC, I think any any added expense on the Mac definitely pays for itself through longevity and saved time.

[7even]

To the OP, I wish I could be like you (really), but I know that in the end none of these Dells or Thinkpads or HPs would satisfy me as much as an MBP :) Seems that you have the common sense people like me lack haha.

[bigbadnewill]

To the OP, I wish I could be like you (really), but I know that in the end none of these Dells or Thinkpads or HPs would satisfy me as much as an MBP :) Seems that you have the common sense people like me lack haha.

As mentioned though, if yor MBP lasts several years you will have not spent more money on it. I am currently about to buy a macbook which i hope lasts a lot longer then the 2 years this hp has given me! If it lasts 3 or more, i'm quids in!!

And besides, there really is no other laptop as sexy as a MB or MBP

[ntrigue]

Dude. You got a Dell. It'll be a doorstop; festering with spyware and viruses, years before your Apple would have felt slightly outdated at which junction you sell it for 60% of what you paid 2 years previous.

And your XPS, it runs Vista. Not OSX. Oops

[dsnort]

Macs may sometimes cost more spec-for-spec than many PC's, but they still usually end up lasting longer and performing better.

I switched to Mac two years ago with a 20" iMac CD. My wife thought I was nuts to pay that much for a comp, but, two years later and the iMac is still tying every bundle, no defects, still as fast as the day I got it. No defrags, no OS reinstalls, no crashes, nothing but software updates.

When I reminded my wife the other day that the iMac was now two years old, even technophobe her stated, "That's been a good computer for us".

I switched because after 10 years of Windows I was anxious, nay desperate, for an alternative.

[Killyp]

It's the other way round for me.

My Dell PC cost me £1400 a few years ago, and I can't run the latest version of Windows a few years down the line. If I'd spent more on a Mac at the time with 'lesser specs', I'd still be able to run the latest version of OS X at speed...

[deputy_doofy]

I wasn't out to offend the OP, nor was I calling the OP dumb. I merely pointed out that I, personally, would rather have the MBP over a Wintel machine any day, despite it being "much cheaper."

Just because I know how to maintain a Windows machine doesn't mean I want to.

[kuwisdelu]

To the OP, I wish I could be like you (really), but I know that in the end none of these Dells or Thinkpads or HPs would satisfy me as much as an MBP :) Seems that you have the common sense people like me lack haha.

But you say that in the end, none of those Dells or Thinkpads or HPs would satisfy you as much as your MBP. That means you DO have common sense. Buying something that wouldn't be as satisfying in the end simply because it's cheaper it's necessarily "common sense," "frugal," or anything like that. It's just silly. If you have a feeling of being ripped off, or you regret your decision, then you have a point, but if your MBP really is satisfying, then you definitely made the "common sense" decision.

It's the other way round for me.

My Dell PC cost me £1400 a few years ago, and I can't run the latest version of Windows a few years down the line. If I'd spent more on a Mac at the time with 'lesser specs', I'd still be able to run the latest version of OS X at speed...

That's one of the great thing about OS X and Macs in general. With Windows, the new OS's need faster computers, and still tend to run slower than the older versions. With Macs, the new versions will run faster than the older versions, regardless of specs, because of the genuine improvement of the OS instead of the needless bloat of Windows. (With the one exception being if you have a PPC instead of an Intel, then the old PPC-native OS will run better...but still better than Windows!)

[Consultant]

Looks like some people cannot see obvious differences,
so here are some advantages of Mac laptops and OS X:

+ Smaller power supply with clever cord management.
+ Longer battery life compared to same laptop running windows. (You have to pay for extra battery "cells" with wintels)
+ Even weight distribution for walking around, typing with one hand.
+ Battery keeps its charge much longer than wintels in sleep mode. No need to shut down for traveling.
+ PC laptops can burn up if left on couch or on carpeted floor (due to various vantilation holes in unusual places that are easy to cover). Mac's ventilation are difficult to block.
+ Close lid to sleep; open to wake is fairly instantly. Easy to take it out of the bag, use it for 2 minutes, close and put it back into the bag.
+ Occasional reboots faster than wintels of the same speed / age.
+ Keyboard short cuts are convenient (Command key is much easier to use than ctrl). Note OS X is full of keyboard short cuts, and if you know what you are doing, you can run around windows in circles.
+ Windows XP and Vista require drivers for even the most basic things.
+ XP and Vista can only use 3gb of ram, no matter if you have top of the line motherboard / processors. You need to pay more for the 64bit version of windows which is less useful (due to lack of drivers).
+ Windows antivirus failing (http://www.heise-security.co.uk/news/100900)
+ Hate spam? Get a mac. Why? About 90% of spam you are receiving are sent by infected Windows machines.
+ OS X asks for your permission; you are in charge. No default stealth windows updates that force quits your opened documents without saving.
+ You can install a lot more apps on the mac than windows without as much slow down as windows which has registry issues (installing apps without even using it in windows can slow down the computer!).
+ You can open a lot more apps / documents at the same time than windows.
+ More processing power than same computer running windows. A computer running XP is about 85% of speed as computer running OS X, benchmarked by Geekbench.
+ and many more...

[GoodWatch]

I'd rather OS X wasn't licensed to other computers. It's dead reliable, and I assume a lot of this is because it's tied to the hardware. As soon as it goes out to everybody else, crap WILL be written to go with the hardware which will cause all sorts of Windows-type errors damaging the OS's reputation.

Are you aware of the fact that Apple uses the same hardware that all other manufacturers use? There is very little difference between a PC 'PC' and an Apple 'PC'. It is the total control over the complete package that does the trick. 1,000,000 possible combinations vs. a handful. Many Windows errors can be attributed to ill-written drivers or software.

[Freyqq]

Looks like some people cannot see obvious differences,
so here are some advantages of Mac laptops and OS X:

+ Smaller power supply with clever cord management.
+ Longer battery life compared to same laptop running windows. (You have to pay for extra battery "cells" with wintels)
+ Even weight distribution for walking around, typing with one hand.
+ Battery keeps its charge much longer than wintels in sleep mode. No need to shut down for traveling.
+ PC laptops can burn up if left on couch or on carpeted floor (due to various vantilation holes in unusual places that are easy to cover). Mac's ventilation are difficult to block.
+ Close lid to sleep; open to wake is fairly instantly. Easy to take it out of the bag, use it for 2 minutes, close and put it back into the bag.
+ Occasional reboots faster than wintels of the same speed / age.
+ Keyboard short cuts are convenient (Command key is much easier to use than ctrl). Note OS X is full of keyboard short cuts, and if you know what you are doing, you can run around windows in circles.
+ Windows XP and Vista require drivers for even the most basic things.
+ XP and Vista can only use 3gb of ram, no matter if you have top of the line motherboard / processors. You need to pay more for the 64bit version of windows which is less useful (due to lack of drivers).
+ Windows antivirus failing (http://www.heise-security.co.uk/news/100900)
+ Hate spam? Get a mac. Why? About 90% of spam you are receiving are sent by infected Windows machines.
+ OS X asks for your permission; you are in charge. No default stealth windows updates that force quits your opened documents without saving.
+ You can install a lot more apps on the mac than windows without as much slow down as windows which has registry issues (installing apps without even using it in windows can slow down the computer!).
+ You can open a lot more apps / documents at the same time than windows.
+ More processing power than same computer running windows. A computer running XP is about 85% of speed as computer running OS X, benchmarked by Geekbench.
+ and many more...

+ Smaller power supply with clever cord management.

true

+ Longer battery life compared to same laptop running windows. (You have
to pay for extra battery "cells" with wintels)

true, but its still cheaper to buy a dell anyways so that point is moot

+ Even weight distribution for walking around, typing with one hand.

probably true..but who carries a laptop around with one hand and types with the other...kinda easy way to drop a laptop..regardless of make and model

+ Battery keeps its charge much longer than wintels in sleep mode. No need
to shut down for traveling.

idk if that is actually accurate

+ PC laptops can burn up if left on couch or on carpeted floor (due to various vantilation holes in unusual places that are easy to cover). Mac's ventilation are difficult to block.

false

+ Close lid to sleep; open to wake is fairly instantly. Easy to take it out of the bag, use it for 2 minutes, close and put it back into the bag.

vista can do this too now

+ Occasional reboots faster than wintels of the same speed / age.

probably true, but honestly is booting up 30 sec faster the basis of your decision to buy a computer? Personally, I focus on the usage of the computer rather than how long it takes to turn it on

+ Keyboard short cuts are convenient (Command key is much easier to use than ctrl). Note OS X is full of keyboard short cuts, and if you know what you are doing, you can run around windows in circles.

pressing ctrl instead of apple key is really a very small thing that comes down to personal preference. It is true that the apple key is closer to the xcv keys for copy paste..but honestly idk how you can justify that as a significant advantage

+ Windows XP and Vista require drivers for even the most basic things.

believe it or not, osx requires drivers too..for even the most basic things
even linux
drivers make things work..omg?!

+ XP and Vista can only use 3gb of ram, no matter if you have top of the line motherboard / processors. You need to pay more for the 64bit version of windows which is less useful (due to lack of drivers).

your reasoning is flawed but you have a point. Though, vista 64 is much more functional then you lead on it to be.

+ Windows antivirus failing (http://www.heise-security.co.uk/news/100900)

if you don't go to sketchy sites and open every attachment you won't get viruses

+ Hate spam? Get a mac. Why? About 90% of spam you are receiving are sent by infected Windows machines.

windows also holds 90% of the market

+ OS X asks for your permission; you are in charge. No default stealth windows updates that force quits your opened documents without saving.

vista does this too..they're just annoying when they do it

+ You can install a lot more apps on the mac than windows without as much slow down as windows which has registry issues (installing apps without even using it in windows can slow down the computer!).

yes but some mac programs do this too

+ You can open a lot more apps / documents at the same time than windows.

where'd that logic come from? That's entirely dependent on ram, not os.

+ More processing power than same computer running windows. A computer running XP is about 85% of speed as computer running OS X, benchmarked by Geekbench.

85% the speed while running geekbench

xp is also much faster at gaming and generally performs as well or better in real world benchmarks







don't talk about stuff you know little about in the name of praising apple. You demean all of us.

[heatmiser]

don't talk about stuff you know little about in the name of praising apple. You demean all of us.

Thank you. OS X isn't "better" than Windows; it's just different. If more people understood that, there'd be very little to argue about here. Maybe that's why a lot of people refuse to understand this. :D

[aiterum]

Thank you. OS X isn't "better" than Windows; it's just different. If more people understood that, there'd be very little to argue about here. Maybe that's why a lot of people refuse to understand this.




all I can say is wow

this thread is an exact example of the reason I joined the "I don't hate macs, I hate arrogant mac users" group on facebook

[GoodWatch]

Looks like some people cannot see obvious differences,
so here are some advantages of Mac laptops and OS X:

+ Smaller power supply with clever cord management.
+ Longer battery life compared to same laptop running windows. (You have to pay for extra battery "cells" with wintels)
+ Even weight distribution for walking around, typing with one hand.
+ Battery keeps its charge much longer than wintels in sleep mode. No need to shut down for traveling.
+ PC laptops can burn up if left on couch or on carpeted floor (due to various vantilation holes in unusual places that are easy to cover). Mac's ventilation are difficult to block.
+ Close lid to sleep; open to wake is fairly instantly. Easy to take it out of the bag, use it for 2 minutes, close and put it back into the bag.
+ Occasional reboots faster than wintels of the same speed / age.
+ Keyboard short cuts are convenient (Command key is much easier to use than ctrl). Note OS X is full of keyboard short cuts, and if you know what you are doing, you can run around windows in circles.
+ Windows XP and Vista require drivers for even the most basic things.
+ XP and Vista can only use 3gb of ram, no matter if you have top of the line motherboard / processors. You need to pay more for the 64bit version of windows which is less useful (due to lack of drivers).
+ Windows antivirus failing (http://www.heise-security.co.uk/news/100900)
+ Hate spam? Get a mac. Why? About 90% of spam you are receiving are sent by infected Windows machines.
+ OS X asks for your permission; you are in charge. No default stealth windows updates that force quits your opened documents without saving.
+ You can install a lot more apps on the mac than windows without as much slow down as windows which has registry issues (installing apps without even using it in windows can slow down the computer!).
+ You can open a lot more apps / documents at the same time than windows.
+ More processing power than same computer running windows. A computer running XP is about 85% of speed as computer running OS X, benchmarked by Geekbench.
+ and many more...

Yawn. And in most cases untrue or urban legend. But you took another bullet for Apple, didn't you?

[Consultant]

+ Smaller power supply with clever cord management.

true

+ Longer battery life compared to same laptop running windows. (You have
to pay for extra battery "cells" with wintels)

true, but its still cheaper to buy a dell anyways so that point is moot

+ Even weight distribution for walking around, typing with one hand.

probably true..but who carries a laptop around with one hand and types with the other...kinda easy way to drop a laptop..regardless of make and model

+ Battery keeps its charge much longer than wintels in sleep mode. No need
to shut down for traveling.

idk if that is actually accurate

+ PC laptops can burn up if left on couch or on carpeted floor (due to various vantilation holes in unusual places that are easy to cover). Mac's ventilation are difficult to block.

false

+ Close lid to sleep; open to wake is fairly instantly. Easy to take it out of the bag, use it for 2 minutes, close and put it back into the bag.

vista can do this too now

+ Occasional reboots faster than wintels of the same speed / age.

probably true, but honestly is booting up 30 sec faster the basis of your decision to buy a computer? Personally, I focus on the usage of the computer rather than how long it takes to turn it on

+ Keyboard short cuts are convenient (Command key is much easier to use than ctrl). Note OS X is full of keyboard short cuts, and if you know what you are doing, you can run around windows in circles.

pressing ctrl instead of apple key is really a very small thing that comes down to personal preference. It is true that the apple key is closer to the xcv keys for copy paste..but honestly idk how you can justify that as a significant advantage

+ Windows XP and Vista require drivers for even the most basic things.

believe it or not, osx requires drivers too..for even the most basic things
even linux
drivers make things work..omg?!

+ XP and Vista can only use 3gb of ram, no matter if you have top of the line motherboard / processors. You need to pay more for the 64bit version of windows which is less useful (due to lack of drivers).

your reasoning is flawed but you have a point. Though, vista 64 is much more functional then you lead on it to be.

+ Windows antivirus failing (http://www.heise-security.co.uk/news/100900)

if you don't go to sketchy sites and open every attachment you won't get viruses

+ Hate spam? Get a mac. Why? About 90% of spam you are receiving are sent by infected Windows machines.

windows also holds 90% of the market

+ OS X asks for your permission; you are in charge. No default stealth windows updates that force quits your opened documents without saving.

vista does this too..they're just annoying when they do it

+ You can install a lot more apps on the mac than windows without as much slow down as windows which has registry issues (installing apps without even using it in windows can slow down the computer!).

yes but some mac programs do this too

+ You can open a lot more apps / documents at the same time than windows.

where'd that logic come from? That's entirely dependent on ram, not os.

+ More processing power than same computer running windows. A computer running XP is about 85% of speed as computer running OS X, benchmarked by Geekbench.

85% the speed while running geekbench

xp is also much faster at gaming and generally performs as well or better in real world benchmarks







don't talk about stuff you know little about in the name of praising apple. You demean all of us.

On many of the items you agreed with what I said. However, your response shows lack of knowledge on other items.


For example
"+ You can open a lot more apps / documents at the same time than windows.
where'd that logic come from? That's entirely dependent on ram, not os. "

Obviously you are not a power user who multi-tasks (oh let me guess you open app at the time with windows, maximize with windows). Why don't you try to open photoshop with multiple hundred meg files, email with 20,000 messages, music player with >200gb of music, and see how your precious windows behave? Do that on a computer with 1gb or even 2gb of ram.

90% of spam comes from infected windows machines, the other 10% are sent by spammer equipment. 0% comes from infected macs.

Do you know vista needs driver to connect to VGA projectors? Something that OS 8, 9, X can do with no problem? Hilarious when I see other consultants who cannot run their presentation on their vista laptops and I can run their slides on my MBP 17" without even pressing fn-F8 or rebooting the projector.

And you know, vista security = insecurity due to the annoying nature.

"The majority of users will find the significant restrictions on actions which effectively sterilize the system unacceptable, just as the constant requests to confirm or enter a password for an action which the system defines as being 'potentially dangerous'. And it is at this point that the 'almost totally secure’ system is transformed into a ‘more vulnerable' system."
http://www.viruslist.com/en/analysis?pubid=204791916


Microsoft's Own Vista Virus Scanner Fails VB100 Test:

"Virus Bulletin reviewed 15 different virus scanners for Microsoft Windows Vista... Of the 15 products tested only 11 passed muster, the most prominent of the failures is Microsoft OneCare, the Windows Vista integrated malware protection. Other prominent failures include the products provided by McAfee and Norman for inclusion in the tests.

The protection offered by Microsoft Defender has been called into question by some Anti-Spyware vendors after their testing showed that Defender failed to block some of the most common variations of existing spyware. In tests it appeared that various threat types including keyloggers and trojans were able to reside within the Vista test environments undetected."
http://www.virus.org/news/computer-v...b100-test.html

[Consultant]

Yawn. And in most cases untrue or urban legend. But you took another bullet for Apple, didn't you?

Benchmark your PC now. Benchmark your PC again in 6 months. Enough said.

[aiterum]

Obviously you are not a power user who multi-tasks (oh let me guess you open app at the time with windows, maximize with windows). Why don't you try to open photoshop with multiple hundred meg files, email with 20,000 messages, music player with >200gb of music, and see how your precious windows behave? Do that on a computer with 1gb or even 2gb of ram.

maybe you don't know how to priotize what you are doing?


also I have been multi-tasking plenty on my windows machine and it has been fine for what I have need

also why do you have 20,000 emails (maybe you should delete some of the spam about viagra?) and I don't see how having 200gb of music would affect tasking, since you're just playing one song at a time?

i understand that you're trying to make sure that apple comes out the winner, but this is just kind of sad

[dsnort]

maybe you don't know how to priotize what you are doing?

No, but I CAN spell prioritize! :D (Sorry, couldn't resist)


also I have been multi-tasking plenty on my windows machine and it has been fine for what I have need

Some people have small needs. (Seriously, I'm out of control, quit setting me up like this!)

also why do you have 20,000 emails (maybe you should delete some of the spam about viagra?)

Damn Viagra, always looking for an endorsement! (I told them I don't use that crap!)

[kuwisdelu]

Is it just me, or has this thread kind of departed from what the original poster asked?

[dsnort]

Is it just me, or has this thread kind of departed from what the original poster asked?

Ya, we're into full fledged troll bait flamewar now!

[compuguy1088]

Hey, I'd have done the same thing. Well, actually, I'd have gone with a T61, most likely, but in the end, we've each got to decide what's worth our money. No need to apologize. :cool:

Though from what I've seen and heard, thinkpads are still very good laptops, and well built. I actually have a MBP. I got it pretty much from the reasons that many have reiterated on this thread.

[Radio Monk33]

*Sigh*
The same old arguments:
1) You pay more for Apple products because they're higher quality.
["As for all the complaints, that's because people on forums complain more than others!!11 And no one mentions when things work right." Ad nauseum]
2) It's okay to pay a premium because Apple computers have a higher resale value. I'm not sure who quantified that..
3) Okay fine, you're paying more for Apple branded computer (with the same components), but it's okay, because I have OS X! And because it's not Vista, I'd be willing to pay any premium they want for it.

And essentially, people can't argue about the value, but then it comes down to the fact that some posters say they are willing to pay any amount of a price premium for a mac, and therefore an Apple computer is a good value, and is not overpriced. And since you can't put an actual dollar value on the brand, some cannot be convinced that they are paying too much..

[tuneman07]

I think the OP was echoing the thoughts of a lot of people on here including myself. I struggle with the idea of paying so much more for a computer when I worry that much of the hype may just be that- hype. I just can't help but feel like I may be paying for image- not unlike buying a Lexus (Toyota is damn near identical for a lot less). I am going to try Mac out though simply because I am so fed up with Windows and primarily anti-virus software. I am at the point now where I don't know if Mac is going to be better or not but I have to find out now that I am curious.

[RHD]

The OP's thread post is stupid. Telling the forum that he was almost a switcher but he found a Dell more suitable for him tells us what???
This forum is for helping people in terms of Macintosh, not to tell us that you just picked up the latest PC because Apple's prices weren't part of your diet. What did you want us to say??? Pointless thread.:rolleyes:

Don't be mean. He has a fair point. He really wants a Mac because they are great but he doesn't have money to burn and he can get what he needs cheaper somewhere else.
He is, quite fairly, disappointed.

I'd love an iPhone but I can't justify the price so I don't have one. I'm sticking with my old Sony Ericsson until the iPhone gets cheaper and saving up for a new MBP if the graphics cards get better because I need it for work.

If they don't, I too will have to seriously contemplate turning to the Dark Side after over a decade of Macdom. (I still have a revision A Bondi iMac if anyone wants one)

Does anyone know if you can install OSX on a PC? (And I so hope I never have to)

[kuwisdelu]

*Sigh*
The same old arguments:
1) You pay more for Apple products because they're higher quality.
["As for all the complaints, that's because people on forums complain more than others!!11 And no one mentions when things work right." Ad nauseum]
2) It's okay to pay a premium because Apple computers have a higher resale value. I'm not sure who quantified that..
3) Okay fine, you're paying more for Apple branded computer (with the same components), but it's okay, because I have OS X! And because it's not Vista, I'd be willing to pay any premium they want for it.

And essentially, people can't argue about the value, but then it comes down to the fact that some posters say they are willing to pay any amount of a price premium for a mac, and therefore an Apple computer is a good value, and is not overpriced. And since you can't put an actual dollar value on the brand, some cannot be convinced that they are paying too much..

Oh come on, it's the same old arguments from both sides.

But as for what you're saying...yes, I will admit that if you go by the actual cost to make the components for the computer and put it together...then Macs are priced more than they should be. But that's just not how businesses work. Yes, if you argue component-for-component, Macs are priced higher than they are worth, and we are willing to pay for it. As long as people will pay for overall quality (and yes, whether they're the same parts or not, Apple's product is what I see as higher quality--you may disagree, but that's my personal computing experience and preference; I'll respect yours and you respect mine), they will continue to be priced that way, no matter how much they cost to make. Do you know that the soda you buy for $2 at a fast food is only worth about $0.03? Lots of people seem to think it's worth it.

So if that's how you want to look at it, then yes, Apple overprices everything. If that's how you want to look at it, everyone overprices everything, and Apple is the most vicious with it. But that's because there are happy OS X users who think its worth it; whereas if PC manufacturers priced their products like that, many of their users wouldn't find it worth its.

Does that make some of us OS X users stupid or mindless fanboys? No, it means Apple has given us a computing experience that we simply find to be a complete joy. Now Windows may simply be "different"--I'm not saying it's inferior or anything like that--but until they create as enjoyable an experience for me as Mac has, the price difference is worth it to me and many others.

So yes, for the components it's made of, my MacBook was overpriced. Does it matter to me when my overall computing experience has been worth it to me? I'm not bothered by it, and I'm known by all my friends as the tightwad among us.

[RHD]

*Sigh*
The same old arguments:
1) You pay more for Apple products because they're higher quality.
["As for all the complaints, that's because people on forums complain more than others!!11 And no one mentions when things work right." Ad nauseum]
2) It's okay to pay a premium because Apple computers have a higher resale value. I'm not sure who quantified that..
3) Okay fine, you're paying more for Apple branded computer (with the same components), but it's okay, because I have OS X! And because it's not Vista, I'd be willing to pay any premium they want for it.

And essentially, people can't argue about the value, but then it comes down to the fact that some posters say they are willing to pay any amount of a price premium for a mac, and therefore an Apple computer is a good value, and is not overpriced. And since you can't put an actual dollar value on the brand, some cannot be convinced that they are paying too much..


Yes as long as they ARE higher quality that's fair.
But everyone has had a few disappointments and it's not always easy to get things fixed when they aren't right.

All I've ever got from Apple's tech support is "do an OS delete and reinstall". Doesn't matter what the problem is, after 10 years that's still their only solution in the UK. It's never worked yet. At least it's saved me a fortune in AppleCare as I always refuse to pay £300 to be told to do a clean install.

[dsnort]

yes, I will admit that if you go by the actual cost to make the components for the computer and put it together...then Macs are priced more than they should be.

Not really proven, and ignores a very real fact of business and economics.

What a product costs to build has absolutely no bearing on what it's sell price is.

Economics 101

Let me repeat that.

What a product costs to build has absolutely no bearing on what it's sell price is.

It's all supply and demand.

Once again, in case you missed it.

What a product costs to build has absolutely no bearing on what it's sell price is

If PC's sell for less, it's because their demand is less.

And not the demand for a windows PC vs a Mac, but the demand for a Dell vs a HP vs a Sony vs a Lenovo vs an Acer vs an Asus. ( Sorry if I missed a manufacturer).

[killmoms]

Thanks to the people who recognized the point of my post. Maybe at some point Apple will realize that there's a lot more money to be had in licensing the OS than there is in hardware sales. I'll leave my posting at that, there's no need to continue posting here now that the Mac is officially out. Peace.

See, it's hard to take your arguments seriously when you drop a doozy like this. Why don't you take a look at the long list of contenders in the "selling the OS on generic PC hardware" who've taken on Microsoft and remained profitable.

No no, I'll wait.

Having trouble seeing it?

That's because that list doesn't ****ing exist. Apple is a "software" company in that their software is what provides the draw, but that's not what they're selling. The software is a draw to their profitable hardware. Selling the whole widget is what has kept them profitable (and grown their company) while the rest of the competitors to Windows in the "generic x86 OS market" have floundered (and the only ones that have thrived to any degree are the ones whose distribution is largely based on being free). Not only does their hardware business keep them profitable, it has the added benefit of reducing the approved hardware list to a manageable size.

If Apple moved to make a "generic OS," they'd face the same "chicken and egg" problem every other long-deceased, one-company-controlled proprietary (or in the case of Apple, semi-proprietary) x86 OS faced: lack of support for hardware. Hardware makers won't write drivers for a niche OS because it takes too much work to create for not enough return, and the OS company can only write so many drivers and test so many configurations before they're spending ALL their time doing that and NONE of their time improving the actual OS. Add to the fact that removing hardware from the equation would cause Apple to take a GIGANTIC hit to their bottom line (remember, computer sales are still around 40% of their profits every quarter) and you see the problem. Less resources + dramatically more workload = recipe for great software? I don't think so.

Apple tried licensing their OS once, and it nearly killed them. I don't think enough has changed in the computing climate in the intervening 10-odd years that they're in any hurry to attempt it again.

[harcosparky]

So yes, for the components it's made of, my MacBook was overpriced. Does it matter to me when my overall computing experience has been worth it to me? I'm not bothered by it, and I'm known by all my friends as the tightwad among us.

But was your Macbook really overpriced when you take into consideration fit&finish as well as quality in assembly techniques? When I first bought a Powerbook 3 years ago, I bought it based on fit&finish and obvious quality. How can you quantify a value for that?

I only ask this because I am reminded of one companies insane attempts a building a 'personal computer'.

Remember when COLECO, maker of the famous CABBAGE PATCH DOLL. built a computer called the ADAM? My god, it was priced according to material content, and the construction techniques inside showed that. I saw components pigtailed to wired before being soldered and I saw tons of cold solder joints.

I sold my G5 Powermac to a girl who brought along her boyfriend. When he came in he admitted he had never seen or used a Powermac. I asked if he had worked on the inside of his PC, and he said he had.

I opened up the Powermac to show him the inside, and he was AMAZED.

He kept asking where Apple hid all the ugly cables you see inside a PC!

Needless to say he was one PC user who walked away impressed.

[thejadedmonkey]

Looks like some people cannot see obvious differences,
so here are some advantages of Mac laptops and OS X:

+ Smaller power supply with clever cord management.
Had it in an older laptop.. nicer cable management the Apple too!
+ Longer battery life compared to same laptop running windows. (You have to pay for extra battery "cells" with wintels)
+ Even weight distribution for walking around, typing with one hand.
Any decent laptop is like this...
+ Battery keeps its charge much longer than wintels in sleep mode. No need to shut down for traveling.
Not true ever since Apple switched to Intel
+ PC laptops can burn up if left on couch or on carpeted floor (due to various vantilation holes in unusual places that are easy to cover). Mac's ventilation are difficult to block.
WTF? PC laptops burn up? (excluding Sony battery issues)
+ Close lid to sleep; open to wake is fairly instantly. Easy to take it out of the bag, use it for 2 minutes, close and put it back into the bag.
+ Occasional reboots faster than wintels of the same speed / age.
+ Keyboard short cuts are convenient (Command key is much easier to use than ctrl). Note OS X is full of keyboard short cuts, and if you know what you are doing, you can run around windows in circles.
It's just muscle memory, Windows shortcut keys are just as effective (if not more so!)
+ Windows XP and Vista require drivers for even the most basic things.
So does OS X, you just don't see OS X installing the drivers, where as it's less transparent in OS X
+ XP and Vista can only use 3gb of ram, no matter if you have top of the line motherboard / processors. You need to pay more for the 64bit version of windows which is less useful (due to lack of drivers).
+ Windows antivirus failing (http://www.heise-security.co.uk/news/100900)
Yeah, but if you're smart about the internet, you don't get viruses anyway. I'm living proof.
+ Hate spam? Get a mac. Why? About 90% of spam you are receiving are sent by infected Windows machines.
see above
+ OS X asks for your permission; you are in charge. No default stealth windows updates that force quits your opened documents without saving.
Where does windows force you to quit without saving? 3am auto-updats that you specified?
+ You can install a lot more apps on the mac than windows without as much slow down as windows which has registry issues (installing apps without even using it in windows can slow down the computer!).
True.
+ You can open a lot more apps / documents at the same time than windows.
You can open more in OS X, but OS X slows down if you have too many up at once too...
+ More processing power than same computer running windows. A computer running XP is about 85% of speed as computer running OS X, benchmarked by Geekbench.
That explains why WoW is so much faster on Windows- NOT!
+ and many more...

I think the OP was echoing the thoughts of a lot of people on here including myself. I struggle with the idea of paying so much more for a computer when I worry that much of the hype may just be that- hype. I just can't help but feel like I may be paying for image- not unlike buying a Lexus (Toyota is damn near identical for a lot less). I am going to try Mac out though simply because I am so fed up with Windows and primarily anti-virus software. I am at the point now where I don't know if Mac is going to be better or not but I have to find out now that I am curious.

I feel the same way. The big difference is that OS X is made for the hardware it runs on. IF YOU CAN FIND A WINDOWS LAPTOP THAT HAS HARDWARE THAT WORKS AS FLAWLESSLY WITH WINDOWS AS OS X DOES WITH MACINTOSH, IT WILL WORK JUST AS WELL. Understand this, there is a HUGE difference between a Compaq laptop running Windows and a Dell business laptop running windows.

[kuwisdelu]

Yes as long as they ARE higher quality that's fair.
But everyone has had a few disappointments and it's not always easy to get things fixed when they aren't right.

All I've ever got from Apple's tech support is "do an OS delete and reinstall". Doesn't matter what the problem is, after 10 years that's still their only solution in the UK. It's never worked yet. At least it's saved me a fortune in AppleCare as I always refuse to pay £300 to be told to do a clean install.

Wow, I guess Apple has some work to do in the UK?

I don't know how much it varies location to location, but I certainly know some people here in the US who've had some problems and took their computer into the Apple Store, and their hardware was repaired/replaced on the spot, and the times it was too difficult to fix, were handed a brand new computer that worked perfectly...

Maybe those were just the success stories, or maybe Apple is just badly behind in its support for the UK?

[kuwisdelu]

But was your Macbook really overpriced when you take into consideration fit&finish as well as quality in assembly techniques? When I first bought a Powerbook 3 years ago, I bought it based on fit&finish and obvious quality. How can you quantify a value for that?

Oh, I definitely agree with you. I love how well-made my MacBook just *looks* and, better, *feels.* It's great. I'm just trying to talk in the language of some of the other people here, for whom that doesn't seem important. My old Dell was ugly and always looked like it was going to fall apart.

[QCassidy352]

Pointless? Apple should be reading this, they're losing sales..as another potential switcher i cant swallow the $1000 price difference for the same hardware either, i'm not THAT excited to switch. They either need to lower the price or get their new products out the door.

I'm sure they're crying over their "lost sales..." or maybe you missed the part where they have $18 billion in cash?

As for the tired old "apple should let people install OS X on PCs" crap... no. OS X is a vehicle used to sell macs. Macs are where the profit is. Just like the itunes store is used to sell ipods. Apple's model is to make profit on the hardware.

Finally, as I've posted over and over regarding the whining over the MBA, design is a feature, and one that costs quite a bit. Nobody seems to question this when it comes to cars, watches, clothing, etc., but when it comes to computers people just don't get it. Yes, apple charges a premium for their superior design. Dell packs the same components in an ugly, generic, boxy package and sells it for less. If you see a computer as nothing but a sophisticated wrench or hammer, then I can see why you wouldn't understand paying more for a mac. But $18 billion says that lots of people do understand and appreciate the difference.

In my mind, macs offer 3 advantages:
1. Hardware/software integration
2. OS X
3. Superior hardware design

IMO each of these things is significant and valuable. In fact, each one, even standing alone, is worth more to me than hardware components that are slightly faster or slightly cheaper. Maybe you disagree. In that case, buy a Dell and enjoy. But apple has a business model that clearly works extremely well, and they have a legion of loyal customers who clearly think that the advantages outweigh the cheaper alternative. I know I do.

[HLdan]

Agreed.....but not this time.

I think the OP's sentiments echo those of many other would-be switchers. The reality is that users pay a premium for Apple hardware/OS X. I don't think that is even arguable.

Um, I disagree. I just left Best Buy and took a look at the XPS 1330. After reading posts about how well spec'd it was against the MBP I thought I would take a good look at it.
Well it didn't take much looking, the XPS1330 is cheap junk. The keyboard is very spongy feeling, too much flex. They keyboard also looks like it's was spray painted with cheap paint.
The lid and body construction was made of very cheap plastic. Although the screen was bright it was dull in contrast. Finally the brushed metal look on the palm rest looked like Dell brushed it with a paint brush with their eyes closed.

Sorry, you do get what you pay for , the Dell XPS 1330 is cheap junk and piss poor.

[uncleSmurf]

The sad thing about all of this...

They are just computers... they all suck in the end anyways, macs and pc's.

If the OP is happy with his dell what's wrong with that? You have people on these boards who flame others for buying Macbooks instead of Macbook Pro's... but God forbid someone for buying a PC because it is much more cheaper for them...

But I guess a lot of Mac users are just special because they have Mac's and not a PC.. that's pretty arrogant.

Leave the OP alone, he bought a PC, he's happy. What's wrong with that?

[RHD]

Wow, I guess Apple has some work to do in the UK?

I don't know how much it varies location to location, but I certainly know some people here in the US who've had some problems and took their computer into the Apple Store, and their hardware was repaired/replaced on the spot, and the times it was too difficult to fix, were handed a brand new computer that worked perfectly...

Maybe those were just the success stories, or maybe Apple is just badly behind in its support for the UK?

Gosh! Lucky you!
That has certainly not my my experience with the Mac store on Regent Street in London or any of their tech support. As far as I'm aware the UK shops don't fix anything while you wait. Even if they agree to do it at all it takes weeks which is really bad news if you use it for work and are freelance like me.
Mostly they just seem to look for ways to get out of helping. Which is a very UK thing.
When I've had to get something done in a hurry I've taken it to a reseller and paid megabux for it. It isn't good.

[uncleSmurf]

Your personal opinion...

I was impressed with the M1330 quality. I could also say that I was at the CompUSA today looking at the Macbooks and was disappointed with the quality of the middle line Macbook compared to the Blackbook right next to it.

No company is perfect in how they produce their products...

Um, I disagree. I just left Best Buy and took a look at the XPS 1330. After reading posts about how well spec'd it was against the MBP I thought I would take a good look at it.
Well it didn't take much looking, the XPS1330 is cheap junk. The keyboard is very spongy feeling, too much flex. They keyboard also looks like it's was spray painted with cheap paint.
The lid and body construction was made of very cheap plastic. Although the screen was bright it was dull in contrast. Finally the brushed metal look on the palm rest looked like Dell brushed it with a paint brush with their eyes closed.

Sorry, you do get what you pay for , the Dell XPS 1330 is cheap junk and piss poor.

[ansella]

I stand by what I say, what are we suppose to say to the OP? He pointed out his feelings about Apple's prices and bought a Dell. So what now? We can't do anything about Apple's prices, either buy Apple or buy something else. The OP chose to buy something else that doesn't pertain to this forum and we can't help him about his new Dell so what's the point of his thread?

It's people like you that accept price gouging and keep buying that keep apple from lowering their prices. If you keep buying there is no reason for the prices to drop. Good for you guy who bought the PC (I didn't see your screen name before posting). If there were more like you Apple would have to be more competitive. By the way there are ways to run Leopard on a PC.

Here is an article telling you how.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,139038-c,macos/article.html

So go ahead and enjoy buy buy the hardware somewhere else.

I am waiting for updates before buying a MACBOOK.

[HLdan]

i don't know really

its not like in his original post he came off in anyway that was saying that apple is a bad company and flaming and that sort of thing

rather, he was just telling a story about how he felt about the current pricing, and was wondering what other people's opinons on the whole issue of it was. I, at least, didn't think that he came in here saying that what you think is wrong and here is the right thing instead. Rather, I feel it came off as a valid question, and people did openly flame and mock him out of pure mac and apple fanboy syndrome.

I noticed the OP has not come back so I'm sure he's enjoying this flame bait he created. At any rate you would be almost right in your idea of what the OP's intentions were accept for one thing. He bought the Dell. Why would he need our opinions on the matter anymore?
If he was on the fence and told the forum that the Dell looked attractive and the OS didn't matter but he likes the MBP but the costs are considerably more what should he do and what are our opinions?

Well that's not how it went. It went, " I'm tired of waiting for the MBP update, I bought the Dell cause it was cheaper and Apple's prices are too high, wah wah wah."
How would our opinion matter at this point. He already did the dirty deed. At this point he's looking for people to agree with him.

[dsnort]

IHere is an article telling you how.

Sorry, but if you use that, you are a thief. No excuse, just a lame assed stealer of other peoples work!

[island]

Sorry, but if you use that, you are a thief. No excuse, just a lame assed stealer of other peoples work!

Thief's rock!

[dsnort]

Thief's rock!

You'd never say that if you had been stolen from.

Thieves, ( the proper plural ), suck.

Big ones.

To completion.

[RacerX]

I've run these numbers before, so I won't do it again here, but for every Mac sale lost because someone bought Mac OS X for some other PC maker's hardware, Apple would need four additional Mac OS X sales to make up for that lost profit. And if half of Apple's current market share in hardware sales bought some other company's hardware to run Mac OS X, Apple would need to reach nearly 50% of OS market share to stay even with their current profits.

Forget making more money by selling Mac OS X for other hardware, Apple would have to struggle to just stay near their current profit range.

Asking Apple to make Mac OS X available for other PCs is the equivalent of asking someone to take a 50% pay cut while working more hours.


Frankly, Apple isn't a charity and if Jobs started running it like one, it wouldn't be around for very much longer. So anyone who doesn't want a Mac and is crying about not being able to run Mac OS X on some other computer, I have absolutely no sympathy for you. I make my living working on Macs, but rarely buy new systems. But the last thing I want is to see the platform killed off just appease people who don't even care about it to begin with.

I've never paid more than $800 for a computer in my life, and I have absolutely no problem with Apple's pricing.


Further, any student buying new hardware (of any type) while in school also deserves absolutely no sympathy... AT ALL. I would never buy new hardware while in school because it is an absolute waste of money! You've basically thrown away most of the value of your new system the moment you get it.

It is simple, if you are hurting for funds... DON'T BUY NEW STUFF!

Starting with nothing, I could have a system up and running that would let me do things most people can't do with the best of hardware or newest software... for the cost of a couple pizzas!

So yeah, when I see students whining about where to throw their $2000 for computer stuff, I find it sounding like the rich complaining about taxes...

Oh, if only all of us were so cursed! :eek:

[kuwisdelu]

I've run these numbers before, so I won't do it again here, but for every Mac sale lost because someone bought Mac OS X for some other PC maker's hardware, Apple would need four additional Mac OS X sales to make up for that lost profit. And if half of Apple's current market share in hardware sales bought some other company's hardware to run Mac OS X, Apple would need to reach nearly 50% of OS market share to stay even with their current profits.

Forget making more money by selling Mac OS X for other hardware, Apple would have to struggle to just stay near their current profit range.

Asking Apple to make Mac OS X available for other PCs is the equivalent of asking someone to take a 50% pay cut while working more hours.


Frankly, Apple isn't a charity and if Jobs started running it like one, it wouldn't be around for very much longer. So anyone who doesn't want a Mac and is crying about not being able to run Mac OS X on some other computer, I have absolutely no sympathy for you. I make my living working on Macs, but rarely buy new systems. But the last thing I want is to see the platform killed off just appease people who don't even care about it to begin with.

I've never paid more than $800 for a computer in my life, and I have absolutely no problem with Apple's pricing.


Further, any student buying new hardware (of any type) while in school also deserves absolutely no sympathy... AT ALL. I would never buy new hardware while in school because it is an absolute waste of money! You've basically thrown away most of the value of your new system the moment you get it.

It is simple, if you are hurting for funds... DON'T BUY NEW STUFF!

Starting with nothing, I could have a system up and running that would let me do things most people can't do with the best of hardware or newest software... for the cost of a couple pizzas!

So yeah, when I see students whining about where to throw their $2000 for computer stuff, I find it sounding like the rich complaining about taxes...

Oh, if only all of us were so cursed! :eek:

Finally, someone who understands how businesses work :D

If Apple put their OS on third party hardware, everyone would lose out. Sure, you'd have a cheaper computer with OS X, but it wouldn't be as stable as it is now; Apple would lose money, which would mean worse OS X down the road; then we're in the same situation as Windows.

You can't always expect to get a great product for free. Luckily, there are people out there working on things like OpenOffice.org and Linux and other open source projects, but that's not Apple.

I agree on the sentiment about students, too. I'm a university student right now, lamenting that I don't have a new iPod Touch and a nice shiny MacBook Air, but lamenting--definitely not complaining. I got a nice MacBook before coming to college, knowing it would serve me well, and I plan to keep using it as long as it lasts, which I expect will be a long time. Buying a new $800 laptop with Vista every year and constantly being frustrated just doesn't make sense when I could bite the $2000 bullet once and happily compute virus-free and productively for 4+ years. Because it's a Mac :D

[Freyqq]

I feel the same way. The big difference is that OS X is made for the hardware it runs on. IF YOU CAN FIND A WINDOWS LAPTOP THAT HAS HARDWARE THAT WORKS AS FLAWLESSLY WITH WINDOWS AS OS X DOES WITH MACINTOSH, IT WILL WORK JUST AS WELL. Understand this, there is a HUGE difference between a Compaq laptop running Windows and a Dell business laptop running windows.

actually, OEMs do the same thing as Apple. They pick components that work well together..not just the cheapest junk they can find. Some do, but most don't. They have the same pool of components that apple has to choose from. The only difference is that apple puts it in a nicely engineered case and slightly modifies some of the parts.

You're making it sound like apple makes all their own chips or something..which they don't. Windows has a lot of drivers b\c it supports a lot of components, but those drivers are written by the component manufacturers anyways.

[a4abt]

I was in the same situation about a month ago. I was comparing PC notebooks prices and Mac notebook's. I ended up with a Macbook Pro that cost a few more $$ than a similar PC, but the difference between both is far beyond simple hardware specs. I have been with PC all my life, the Macbook Pro was my first Apple computer and I will never go back to PC's! Only complaint about my Macbook Pro; it runs a little hotter than a PC notebook, but I've read that Apple decided to go with a passive cooling that makes their computers run warmer compared to other notebooks. It just takes time getting use to seeing higher CPU temperatures and not being concerned!

When buying a Mac, I believe there is a lot more than $$ differences :p

[BigPana]

Just like buying a TV, don't get one solely based on specs, you have to use your eyes.

And honetly for ME, yes macs are a little more expensive, but I guess it doesn't seem as crazy to me as it used to because I know that macs just come with tons of extra things that usually doesn't get listed on a quick spec sheet.

[Radio Monk33]

I noticed the OP has not come back so I'm sure he's enjoying this flame bait he created. At any rate you would be almost right in your idea of what the OP's intentions were accept for one thing. He bought the Dell. Why would he need our opinions on the matter anymore?
If he was on the fence and told the forum that the Dell looked attractive and the OS didn't matter but he likes the MBP but the costs are considerably more what should he do and what are our opinions?

Well that's not how it went. It went, " I'm tired of waiting for the MBP update, I bought the Dell cause it was cheaper and Apple's prices are too high, wah wah wah."
How would our opinion matter at this point. He already did the dirty deed. At this point he's looking for people to agree with him.

Actually, he did come back here with a follow up post on this thread, around page 2 so this is hardly flamebait. I think he's waiting for an apology. :P

[Radio Monk33]

Oh come on, it's the same old arguments from both sides.

But as for what you're saying...yes, I will admit that if you go by the actual cost to make the components for the computer and put it together...then Macs are priced more than they should be. But that's just not how businesses work. Yes, if you argue component-for-component, Macs are priced higher than they are worth, and we are willing to pay for it. As long as people will pay for overall quality (and yes, whether they're the same parts or not, Apple's product is what I see as higher quality--you may disagree, but that's my personal computing experience and preference; I'll respect yours and you respect mine), they will continue to be priced that way, no matter how much they cost to make. Do you know that the soda you buy for $2 at a fast food is only worth about $0.03? Lots of people seem to think it's worth it.

So if that's how you want to look at it, then yes, Apple overprices everything. If that's how you want to look at it, everyone overprices everything, and Apple is the most vicious with it. But that's because there are happy OS X users who think its worth it; whereas if PC manufacturers priced their products like that, many of their users wouldn't find it worth its.

Does that make some of us OS X users stupid or mindless fanboys? No, it means Apple has given us a computing experience that we simply find to be a complete joy. Now Windows may simply be "different"--I'm not saying it's inferior or anything like that--but until they create as enjoyable an experience for me as Mac has, the price difference is worth it to me and many others.

So yes, for the components it's made of, my MacBook was overpriced. Does it matter to me when my overall computing experience has been worth it to me? I'm not bothered by it, and I'm known by all my friends as the tightwad among us.

Oh not all Mac users have some superiority complex/fanboyism (though I wouldn't like to have to make a demographic chart for this forum ;)). And don't get me wrong, I post this from an ibook G4 (been Apple-only since around '92-93) and I too am willing to pay the extra for a luxury good. I also like to buy fancy brand name clothes too heh.

It's just that I get frustrated that people try to find value in Apple's pricing to psychologically justify a decision that they've made or are planning to either way. Afterall, even against numbers and logic...the ultimate cop-out for Macs is "I don't like windows, I like OS, and therefore would pay x dollars extra". And well, if there's a blank cheque argument not really based on any logic, there's really just no reasoning with some people. :) It would be like someone being of a Christian faith, then no matter what scientific evidence you have, if they're losing they default to the statement that God moves in mysterious ways and therefore they admit nothing hehe.

We should all just admit it...we're getting gouged, and anyone who comes back here is still loving it lol.

[gothamm]

Stop being bitter fanboys and actually listen to the point the OP is trying to make. I wholeheartedly agree with your decision. You were on a budget, and still received an excellent laptop. I applaud your discipline.


p.s.


if you are willing to get anal about defending something material (mbp), then your life is nothing but a meaningless existence of consumerism :rolleyes:

[BigPana]

if you are willing to get anal about defending something material (mbp), then your life is nothing but a meaningless existence of consumerism :rolleyes:



Yes sir, Mr. Durden!

[gothamm]

Yes sir, Mr. Durden!

you are not the computer you own. you are not your ****ing khakis

;)

[cohibadad]

I'm not sure what the OP wanted in a mac. It must not have been the OS and that is where my decision making starts. Was it the hardware? You can always find cheaper faster hardware elsewhere although the package may not look as good. To lust for a penryn just because it is the newest chip doesn't make sense. CPUs these days are plenty fast for almost all applications. Penryn should allow faster video encoding but unless you are doing it so much that it saves you significant time you are just lusting after the newest and that lust will never end. I guess one of the downsides of forums such as this is that there is a perpetual waiting game for new hardware and it is probably irrelevant for 95% of consumers. Apple doesn't discount older hardware because all it does is reduce their profits and eliminates a future sale. They don't have a lot of hardware in the pipeline and as upgrades happen old inventory clears quickly. Microsoft dumped their old zunes at huge discounts and probably lost many sales of their new zunes as a result and probably turned off some future sales due to dissatisfaction with the old product. And as far as installing Mac OSX on PCs, that has been discussed many times. No problem with going PC if that is what you want but my advice would have been to first decide what OS you want then go from there. An entry level macbook is a great machine and a refurbished one is a great deal.

[kuwisdelu]

We should all just admit it...we're getting gouged, and anyone who comes back here is still loving it lol.

Oh I never said anything about being gouged. I do admit if you argue for component-by-component pricing, then you're being ripped off, but when I buy a computer, I figure I'm paying for the overall computing experience I'll have while using it. If Apple doubled their prices tomorrow, I'd have to think about switching to Linux when I replace this MacBook. But right now, I think my MacBook was worth any penny.

The people I think are being gouged are those who settle for a PC simply because its cheaper, and then get frustrated with their computer down the line. But at least their specs are great!