Apple Announces MacBook Air Shipping, Apple TV Update Delayed [Archive]

Mindflux

Jan 30, 2008, 12:57 PM

Apparently none of you can read. See bolded.

MacBook Air Now Shipping

Apple TV Update Coming Soon

CUPERTINO, California--January 30, 2008--Apple® today announced that MacBook Air™, the world's thinnest notebook, is now shipping. MacBook Air measures an unprecedented 0.16-inches at its thinnest point, while its maximum height of 0.76-inches is less than the thinnest point on competing notebooks. Apple also announced that the new Apple TV® software update, which allows users to rent high definition movies directly from their widescreen TVs, is not quite finished. Apple now plans to make the free software download available to existing Apple TV customers in another week or two.

MacBook Air has a stunning 13.3-inch LED-backlit widescreen display, a full-size and backlit keyboard, a built-in iSight® video camera for video conferencing, and a spacious trackpad with multi-touch gesture support so users can pinch, rotate and swipe. MacBook Air is powered by a 1.6 GHz or 1.8 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor with 4MB L2 cache, and includes as standard features 2GB of memory, an 80GB 1.8-inch hard drive, and the latest 802.11n Wi-Fi technology and Bluetooth 2.1.

Apple TV's software update will allow movie fans to rent movies on the iTunes® Store directly from their widescreen TV. With iTunes Movie Rentals and Apple TV, users can just click a button on their remote to effortlessly rent movies from a catalog of over 1,000 titles by the end of February, including over 100 titles in stunning high definition video with 5.1 Dolby Digital surround sound, with no computer required. DVD-quality iTunes Movie Rentals are $2.99 for library titles and $3.99 for new releases, and high definition versions are just one dollar more with library titles at $3.99 and new releases at $4.99. Purchases downloaded to Apple TV are automatically synced back to iTunes on the user's computer for enjoyment on their computer, all current generation iPods* or iPhone™. Apple TV easily connects to a broad range of widescreen TVs and home theater systems and comes standard with HDMI, component video, analog and optical audio ports.

Pricing & Availability
The new MacBook Air is now shipping and will be available through the Apple Store® (www.apple.com), Apple's retail stores and Apple Authorized Resellers for a suggested retail price of $1,799 (US), and includes:
• 13.3-inch LED-backlit glossy widescreen display with 1280x800 resolution;
• 1.6 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor with 4MB L2 cache;
• 800 MHz front-side bus;
• 2GB of 667 MHz DDR2 SDRAM;
• 80GB hard disk drive with Sudden Motion Sensor;
• Intel Graphics Media Accelerator X3100;
• Micro-DVI port (includes Micro-DVI to VGA and Micro-DVI to DVI Adapters);
• built-in iSight video camera;
• built-in AirPort Extreme® 802.11n wireless networking and Bluetooth 2.1+EDR;
• one USB 2.0 port;
• one headphone port;
• multi-touch TrackPad with support for advanced multi-touch gestures including tap, scroll, pinch, rotate and swipe; and
• 45 Watt MagSafe® Power Adapter.

Build-to-order options and accessories for MacBook Air include the ability to upgrade to a 1.8 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor; 64GB solid state drive, MacBook Air SuperDrive®, Apple USB Ethernet Adapter, Apple USB Modem, Apple MagSafe Airline Adapter, Apple Remote and the AppleCare Protection Plan. Additional build-to-order options also include pre-installed copies of iWork™ '08, Logic® Express 8, Final Cut® Express 4 and Aperture™ 1.5.

The new Apple TV software will be available as a free automatic download to all Apple TV customers within two weeks. Apple TV, which includes the Apple Remote, is available from the Apple Store (www.apple.com), Apple's retail stores and Apple Authorized Resellers for a suggested retail price of $229 (US) for the 40GB model and $329 (US) for the 160GB model (US and Canada). Apple TV requires an 802.11g/n wireless network or 10/100 Base-T Ethernet networking, a broadband Internet connection and a high definition widescreen TV. iPod® games will not play on Apple TV. iTunes Movie Rentals are available in the US only.

*Movie rentals work on iPod classic, iPod nano with video and iPod touch.

Apple ignited the personal computer revolution in the 1970s with the Apple II and reinvented the personal computer in the 1980s with the Macintosh. Today, Apple continues to lead the industry in innovation with its award-winning computers, OS X operating system and iLife and professional applications. Apple is also spearheading the digital media revolution with its iPod portable music and video players and iTunes online store, and has entered the mobile phone market with its revolutionary iPhone.

tothelimit

Jan 30, 2008, 12:58 PM

I just caught this over in the AppleTV forum a few minute ago.
Not too happy about it. What do you think is potentially causing this hold up?

IEatApples

Jan 30, 2008, 12:59 PM

Finally! … Now that they're shipping can we please have the MBPs? :o

bbydon

Jan 30, 2008, 12:59 PM

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2008/01/30mba.html

here is the link to the press release.

its delayed

notnek

Jan 30, 2008, 12:59 PM

Maybe they will be updated when I buy mine in a few weeks. We'll see.

mickeyd26

Jan 30, 2008, 01:00 PM

I too thought that it was the old Apple press release, but just checked the Hot News section on Apple.com...

http://www.apple.com/hotnews/

MacBook Air now shipping; Apple TV Update coming soon
The world’s thinnest notebook is now shipping, Apple announced today. MacBook Air measures an unprecedented 0.16-inches at its thinnest point. And at it’s maximum height of 0.76-inches, it’s less than the thinnest point on competing notebooks.

Apple also announced that the free Apple TV software update enabling movie rentals is not quite finished and will now be available in another week or two. [Jan 30, 2008]

:-(

I'm disappointed...

tothelimit

Jan 30, 2008, 01:00 PM

That item is from the day of the keynote, at least the memo is, so I dunno what is going on at this point...

What makes you say its from the day of the keynote?

.vin.

Jan 30, 2008, 01:00 PM

I just caught this over in the AppleTV forum a few minute ago.
Not too happy about it. What do you think is potentially causing this hold up?
Since the entire interface is apparently gonna be revamped, my guess is they just misjudged their time frame.

tothelimit

Jan 30, 2008, 01:01 PM

http://www.apple.com/hotnews/

Here it is on the hot news page.
:mad:

Avatar74

Jan 30, 2008, 01:02 PM

Yeah, let's trust those idiots at Gizmodo who got banned from CES, angering the entire online journalism community which is already struggling for credibility and press credentials.

I think Gizmodo is either trying to be deliberately obfuscative because they're bitter about getting booted out of CES vis-a-vis their own stupidity, or they're just being inept by citing a deadline given two weeks ago in an article published today.

EDIT: Ok, I'm mistaken. But I still think Gizmodo are douchebags. :D

Shoesy

Jan 30, 2008, 01:03 PM

Hey I didnt bother to read it properly alright!

My bad.

Mindflux

Jan 30, 2008, 01:03 PM

Yeah, let's trust those idiots at Gizmodo who got banned from CES, angering the entire online journalism community which is already struggling for credibility and press credentials.

I think Gizmodo is either trying to be deliberately obfuscative because they're bitter about CES, or they're just being inept by citing a deadline given two weeks ago in an article published today.

Why isn't there a tard smiley here?

It's on Apple's NEWS PAGE.

artpease

Jan 30, 2008, 01:03 PM

Not too happy about it. What do you think is potentially causing this hold up?
Appears Apple has software engineers who can't meet their schedules...boo
Has anything been on time in the last year?

cgray24

Jan 30, 2008, 01:04 PM

I just caught this over in the AppleTV forum a few minute ago.
Not too happy about it. What do you think is potentially causing this hold up?

Hopefully fixing the flickr intergration that locked up the machine in the keynote.

SthrnCmfrtr

Jan 30, 2008, 01:05 PM

Yeah, let's trust those idiots at Gizmodo who got banned from CES, angering the entire online journalism community which is already struggling for credibility and press credentials.

Yep, that completely destroyed all the respect I had for them. Which wasn't much, admittedly, but they were neck-and-neck with Engadget. What an idiotic thing to do...

spazzcat

Jan 30, 2008, 01:05 PM

As much as I want the update now. I would rather have it be solid.

tothelimit

Jan 30, 2008, 01:05 PM

Hopefully fixing the flickr intergration that locked up the machine in the keynote.

this seems like an awful long delay just to fix flickr integration. in my opinion that is.

everything seems to work great in the guided tour on apple's page ;) ha

Apple Corps

Jan 30, 2008, 01:06 PM

My two cents is that Apple may not have the talent on board to pull off whatever they have been trying to do with Apple TV. It has been a confusing product launch, limited capability with the original (especially in the HD era), very limited library of movies given the time this has been bouncing around, and now this delay.

DRM and multiple studio negotiations have, no doubt, made this the most complicated offering Apple has had to sort through.

Reach

Jan 30, 2008, 01:07 PM

Just ship the Mac Pros with 8800-cards already..

pounce

Jan 30, 2008, 01:07 PM

i bought one after the keynote thinking that it finally looked interesting enough to get. i'm very anxious to give the new software a go.

Avatar74

Jan 30, 2008, 01:08 PM

Why isn't there a tard smiley here?

It's on Apple's NEWS PAGE.

See my edit above. Also, why should I feel stupid for not trusting Gizmodo until someone cited the Apple press release.

It's not like I'm saying there's no possibility of a delay or that Apple's own statement is incorrect.

Unless you believe in psychic powers (and if you do, you should go on Jon Edwards' show and get ripped off by him) I don't see how I'm any less intelligent for not possessing (imaginary) powers of prediction.

jaw04005

Jan 30, 2008, 01:09 PM

Hopefully fixing the flickr intergration that locked up the machine in the keynote.

I think that was related to Flickr's servers, not the actual Apple TV software. I know I was watching Flickr feeds of people taking pictures during the keynote, and Flickr's Web site slowed to a crawl half-way through.

mrklaw

Jan 30, 2008, 01:09 PM

never mind 'get it right is better than rushed but buggy'. If it wasn't going to be available 'in two weeks', then Steve Jobs shouldn't have announced that at Macworld. 'in two weeks' suggests its basically ready apart from a few minor checks. If that wasn't the case, then he should have said 'this quarter' or something similarly vague.

Intarweb

Jan 30, 2008, 01:10 PM

Appears Apple has software engineers who can't meet their schedules...boo
Has anything been on time in the last year?

My Compressor that hasn't worked since June of last year says Apple doesn't know how to handle anything other than the iPhone and iPod, software problem wise....!

whatever

Jan 30, 2008, 01:10 PM

Since the entire interface is apparently gonna be revamped, my guess is they just misjudged their time frame.

Actually it's more than just the user interface.

They're moving it from Tiger (10.4) to Leopard (10.5) also.

The download itself should be quite large, which might be a part of the problem with the eminent release of 10.5.2. I'm not sure if the two releases are connected, but I wouldn't be surprised in the lease.

Expect it to be closer to one week than two, depending on 10.5.2 (it will be after that release).

tadunne

Jan 30, 2008, 01:11 PM

Thats gonna help the shareprice... ;)

I guess they have not quite ironed out that flickr bug!

I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop.. iphone SDK delayed!

My theory is this "Key Leak" actually came from Apple and they are going to use it as an excuse to delay the SDK.

ReflecTruth

Jan 30, 2008, 01:12 PM

Squonk

Jan 30, 2008, 01:13 PM

Which will come out first, :apple:TV software update or new MBP??? :mad:

SheriffParker

Jan 30, 2008, 01:13 PM

Too bad about the :apple:tv. Hopefully the wait will be worth it for all of those who own them.

Small White Car

Jan 30, 2008, 01:14 PM

DRM and multiple studio negotiations have, no doubt, made this the most complicated offering Apple has had to sort through.

Bingo.

I'm betting this has NOTHING to do with programers and everything to do with lawyers arguing over the tiny details of the movie rental model. The sort of details that you'd never even see in the fine print on apple.com they're so small.

That's the kind of stuff that takes forever to work out and can keep changing up to the last minute. (Or longer, apparently!)

typeoserv

Jan 30, 2008, 01:15 PM

Which will come out first, :apple:TV software update or new MBP??? :mad:

I'd say it'll be a 16core Mac Pro before a :apple:TV update

FreeState

Jan 30, 2008, 01:15 PM

'in two weeks' suggests its basically ready apart from a few minor checks.

Your right - however we dont know what is holding it up. I have several guesses though and I think it could be all off them combined:

Software bugs
Based on OSX 10.5.2 - not ready yet - just a guess
Studio negotiations (NBC)

I'd rather it be delayed than not up to par:)

Badandy

Jan 30, 2008, 01:16 PM

Apple can make a delay sound like a good thing. They are ridiculously good at publicity.

tadunne

Jan 30, 2008, 01:17 PM

Bingo.

I'm betting this has NOTHING to do with programers and everything to do with lawyers arguing over the tiny details of the movie rental model. The sort of details that you'd never even see in the fine print on apple.com they're so small.

That's the kind of stuff that takes forever to work out and can keep changing up to the last minute. (Or longer, apparently!)

i would agree except rentals are already here in itunes!?

The only difference between itunes on a computer and Apple TV is the HD content..

whatever

Jan 30, 2008, 01:17 PM

My two cents is that Apple may not have the talent on board to pull off whatever they are trying to do with Apple TV. It has been a confusing product launch, limited capability with the original (especially in the HD era), very limited library of movies given the time this has been bouncing around, and now this delay.

DRM and multiple studio negotiations have, no doubt, made this the most complicated offering Apple has had to sort through.

What are you talking about? Do you have an Apple TV. Even the current version of it is really cool.

Once the Rental Store is over I for one will never use OnDemand to rent a movie again. Talk about a poor and slow user interface.

As far as the library goes, at launch it will be much larger than many cable companies OnDemand (I'm referring to the movie rental portion) service.

In my opinion Apple as mastered the art of video DRM.

PlaceofDis

Jan 30, 2008, 01:18 PM

the delay doesn't completely surprise me, given the new rental model. i'm sure they're having bugs getting everything tweaked.

filmguy15

Jan 30, 2008, 01:20 PM

3 points:

1. At least they are waiting until it's right, instead of giving in to fanboy pressure and releasing a half-a$$ed patch.
2. At least they told us about it and acknowledged the delay. Unlike many other companies who would pretend they never gave a time frame...
3. Sounds to me like they are saying "2 weeks" just to be REALLY safe, so they don't have to push it back again. I bet it gets released before the next 2-week mark. I hope. And pray. Please...

kagharaht

Jan 30, 2008, 01:20 PM

As much as I want the update now. I would rather have it be solid.

Agreed. Now we can all relax and enjoy our ATV for what it can do now. Which is quite a bit already in its current revision.

/dev/toaster

Jan 30, 2008, 01:22 PM

I would rather the AppleTV update to be delayed, then the iPhone SDK :D

But hey, 2 weeks isn't too bad. Better then, delayed 2 months :)

tadunne

Jan 30, 2008, 01:22 PM

To make you feel better, the rest of the world could potentially have to wait until the end of the year (and still get less content for twice the price) before a big part of Apple TV will be useful to us.

Think yourself lucky it's only 2 weeks!

kagharaht

Jan 30, 2008, 01:25 PM

I would rather the AppleTV update to be delayed, then the iPhone SDK :D

But hey, 2 weeks isn't too bad. Better then, delayed 2 months :)

Or five years like Longhorn whatever? :p

kaioslider

Jan 30, 2008, 01:28 PM

Everyday, and sometimes twice a day, I have checked for the Apple TV software update. I bought mine right after THE keynote thinking that it was already shipping with the update. Yeah, so I missed that whole "in 2 weeks thing." As if that wasn't disheartening enough, now I've gotta wait another 2 weeks or so.

Sigh. :(

Actually, you're not the only one. I did the same thing, ordered mine thinking that this "update" was for "current" aTV owners. Of course at the time I - nor most people I think - was not aware that the hardware was exactly the same. When my aTV arrived I thought I had gotten a old version and jumped online to see what was going on. Turns out many people has the same impression. One person over on the Apple boards mentioned that he went and spoke with Apple Store employees and as it turned out they really didn't even know. I think this was intentional on SJ's part simply because of how he presented it; the whole thing with "current" users. I'm sure if I Q'd up the keynote again I'd see that technically he said it exactly as it's turned out to be, but then I'd be looking back, 20/20 right!

It's not that big of a deal, I would have gotten one either way, I had said over and over (as many did since it seemed obvious) that Apple was missed when it came to the aTV, not so much the device, but the content. It may have been all Apple could do a year ago. In SJ's keynote he basically summed it up, video (movies, tv media, etc.) is not music, most folk don't care to own b/c they just won't watch it more than once or a handful of times. Case in point, back in the VHS days I signed up for one of those movies for a penny deals, and bought movies on VHS every month. I threw them all out years ago, many lost most of the quality and they just took up space.

Anyways, really no point in fretting over the delay, once it's here no one will care about the delay.

niemo810

Jan 30, 2008, 01:33 PM

sminman

Jan 30, 2008, 01:34 PM

That is what I like about Apple...

They aren't going to release sloppy software or products because of consumer pressure, they take there time to make sure everything is flowing smoothly when it hits the market.

It's a bummer that the update isn't available yet but like I said...

bilbo--baggins

Jan 30, 2008, 01:36 PM

If it's a choice of not being finished but get it out anyway cos we said we would (a la Leopard) or waiting a bit longer, I guess I'd rather wait. Shame though.

soLoredd

Jan 30, 2008, 01:36 PM

ErikAndre

Jan 30, 2008, 01:41 PM

It seems everything at Apple is being delayed. :confused:

pounce

Jan 30, 2008, 01:42 PM

apple is really due to get some updates out already. even as an apple fan, i have to say a few things they've done software-wise have seemed unfinished.

the apple tv update will be the difference between it being pretty mediocre and being the replacement for on demand. i think i'll love my apple tv when the update comes out.

the leopard update to get things like airdisk with aebs is a big deal. i suspect that 10.5.2 will be the first version of leopard that feels properly finished and stable for me. i'm looking forward to it.

the iphone software updates. there are still a few popular items on everyones wish list that i'd like to see in my iphone. (i'm not going on about 3g and the like). maybe after the sdk is out and there is some development there it will feel a bit more mature. i love it, but it seems like it's 80% there now, not 100% there.

so for me this is all a mix of promised features that aren't there yet, and expectations about software maturity that i think are reasonable that are just starting to get there. and i would have thought the initial releases of the above would have been more mature and less unfinished feeling. ymmv.

i still like all of the above, and am happy to see the updates and development getting there. but i think all three of those came to market in slightly rougher than expected form. they are becoming as great as i hoped, but that requires some patience on our part.

DJAKO

Jan 30, 2008, 01:43 PM

It seems everything at Apple is being delayed. :confused:

I got the iRack when it came out, no delays here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw2nkoGLhrE

Spades

Jan 30, 2008, 01:44 PM

Which will come out first, :apple:TV software update or new MBP??? :mad:

The Powerbook G5 will come out first of course.

ariza910

Jan 30, 2008, 01:44 PM

i would agree except rentals are already here in itunes!?

The only difference between itunes on a computer and Apple TV is the HD content..

Not exactly - Movie studios are going to treat a PC/MAC differently than a set-top box like the AppleTV. While studios may agree on the terms for renting a movie on your computer screen they are going to be way more careful about what they do with their content aimed at the TV screen.

My guess is studios already have deals in place with cable, Dish, VOD, PPV etc to deliver content to TV screens and this AppleTV deal may be interfering with those previous deals.

Another theory is that Apple is trying to get studios to allow rentals initiated from the AppleTV to be transfered back to your Mac-PC and/or iPod. Currently you can only transfer rentals from iTunes to AppleTV but not the other way around. Since it is technically trivial it must have something to do with the studio contracts.

rtdunham

Jan 30, 2008, 01:45 PM

Agreed. Now we can all relax and enjoy our ATV for what it can do now. Which is quite a bit already in its current revision.

what's revised about it, other than the software that's not yet released? IS there a "current revision"?

bommai

Jan 30, 2008, 01:48 PM

I think Apple has bit off more than it can chew. The company's entrance into the consumer electronics market has seemed flaky. I just think they're trying to conquer too much to fast. Their products are great, but there are so many things going on. Leopard, xserves, MBAir, :apple:TV, iPhone, iPod Touch, etc, etc, etc...

I think Apple just needs to slow down and take things one at a time. The end result will be a lot less people being pissed off about details that Apple overlooked because the product was rushed. Quality takes time!

You are talking as if Apple is still a small company. For a company of Apple's size, they still have very few products. Have you seen how many different kinds of products Sony makes. I am sure it is still growing pains. Apple has several thousand employees for these projects and they are still hiring. Delays like this are very normal in the CE market place. See how many times the PS3 got delayed. The Denon Bluray player is delayed multiple times and now by a few months. etc. etc.

akadmon

Jan 30, 2008, 01:53 PM

Apple refers to the $1799 price of the MBA as "suggested". Does this mean I can go to an Apple store and suggest a lower price to the manager? More importantly, is there any chance such a suggestion would be positively received? ;)

cgray24

Jan 30, 2008, 01:54 PM

I think that was related to Flickr's servers, not the actual Apple TV software. I know I was watching Flickr feeds of people taking pictures during the keynote, and Flickr's Web site slowed to a crawl half-way through.

maybe so, my comment was more of a joke, but even still, the appletv should account for flickr server problems (its to be expected) and not locked up. Who knows how much more of flickr or ATV he wanted to demo, but the unit locked up and you could tell he was trying to get back to the home screen and then just went on with the presentation.

It was obviously not a stable build. I rather wait two more weeks to iron out the bugs.

netdog

Jan 30, 2008, 01:55 PM

Nothing has shipped to the UK. This blows.

Small White Car

Jan 30, 2008, 01:55 PM

i would agree except rentals are already here in itunes!?

The only difference between itunes on a computer and Apple TV is the HD content..

No, the difference is that it's on a TV. The 24-hour thing is to protect cable "on-demand" services. If it stays on the computer they really don't care. Once it's on TV it suddenly affects cable TV and DVD sales.

Putting rentals on the TV is going to stir up a lot of other things. I'm sure it's taking more time to work those details out than it takes to just put it on a computer.

petvas

Jan 30, 2008, 01:59 PM

I somehow expected that the new Apple TV update would be delayed. I think we'll see it sometime by the end of February...
It reminds me to the first delay of Apple TV when it was supposed to be released by the end of February and then Apple announced that it would be delayed to March (which indeed happened)

pondie84

Jan 30, 2008, 02:01 PM

John Purple

Jan 30, 2008, 02:01 PM

Which will come out first, :apple:TV software update or new MBP??? :mad:

iPhone, iPodtouch, iPodoutch, iPodxxx :eek:

eisnach41

Jan 30, 2008, 02:07 PM

Know what I think? I think Steve Jobs and Apple were looking at Macworld and wondering "What the hell do we have that we can present? We can't go with nothing." And so they came up with this AppleTV update, sprinkled in with the crappy iPhone update and the Touch upgrade. I think they had an idea of what they wanted to do with the AppleTV but were nowhere near finishing it. He just threw the 2 weeks out there.

I'm telling you, Apple has too much on the plate right now. Being ambitious is great but there is a time and place for it, not to mention there is a way of going about it.

there is NO way that the rental feature was thrown together in a few weeks. the ui, maybe. but getting every major studio on board for this type of undertaking took months. if you think that all of these studios rolled all over themselves to get on this, you are fooling yourself.

gotohamish

Jan 30, 2008, 02:10 PM

Appears Apple has software engineers who can't meet their schedules...boo
Has anything been on time in the last year?

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe they've been reading all the online responses and are adding features and fixing things so it launches as perfect as possible.

Sure, we're ALL disappointed, but with Apple it's usually worth waiting for. I hope.

benpatient

Jan 30, 2008, 02:18 PM

Not exactly - Movie studios are going to treat a PC/MAC differently than a set-top box like the AppleTV. While studios may agree on the terms for renting a movie on your computer screen they are going to be way more careful about what they do with their content aimed at the TV screen.

My guess is studios already have deals in place with cable, Dish, VOD, PPV etc to deliver content to TV screens and this AppleTV deal may be interfering with those previous deals.

MicroZoft has managed to get the studios to do this for the 360 download store with no problems...in HD.

I can't imagine that Apple would be less capable in negotiations than microsoft.

but then that would mean they just couldn't get the code right in time for their own announced deadline...and that would be in line with their recent software efforts.

Darkroom

Jan 30, 2008, 02:18 PM

i was under the impression that the MBAs needed 10.5.2 with air disc or whatever it's called... does this mean that apple is going to release 10.5.2 today?

Baron58

Jan 30, 2008, 02:21 PM

I'm telling you, Apple has too much on the plate right now. Being ambitious is great but there is a time and place for it, not to mention there is a way of going about it.

Riiiight... Now, remind me again what multi-billion dollar, zeitgeist-defining computer & consumer electronics company *you're* CEO of?

What time?
What place?
What way?

milo

Jan 30, 2008, 02:24 PM

It really is disappointing for customers who bought the product with the initial two week quote in mind.

If the update was so crucial to your use of a new aTV, why didn't you just wait until the update was out before buying the hardware?

timothyjay2004

Jan 30, 2008, 02:25 PM

Well, I am kind of upset about the delay. I bought the :apple:TV the new price point 2 weeks ago. I also rented a movie the next day in anticipation of being able to watch it on my HD TV yesterday. I have about 2 weeks left to watch it and I sure as hell hope that they release the update before the rental expires. I'll be upset if I have to watch it on a small screen verses my HD TV. I am a little disappointed that they haven't been meeting announced deadlines lately. Leopard, AppleTV update, and there is something else I am missing but I can't remember what. I hope that this isn't what the future holds for them. I don't want them to end up like M$ and keep pushing back more and more projects and release dates. I really hope that this update comes by this time next week...

Apple Corps

Jan 30, 2008, 02:27 PM

What are you talking about? Do you have an Apple TV. Even the current version of it is really cool.

Once the Rental Store is over I for one will never use OnDemand to rent a movie again. Talk about a poor and slow user interface.

As far as the library goes, at launch it will be much larger than many cable companies OnDemand (I'm referring to the movie rental portion) service.

In my opinion Apple as mastered the art of video DRM.

What I am talking about is the poor launch / sales performance / and confusing market segment that has plagued the Apple TV.

Can't comment on "cool" factor - thus far (may change) the Apple TV has been a disappointment for Apple. And NO - I do not own one and, like many others, will NOT own one until the feature set becomes attractive. I'm not a COMCAST fanboy but we have been renting HD movies for some time now w/o needing additional hardware and having the choice of MANY movies from the vast COMCAST library - it is 2008 and still no Apple HD online - Apple is still in a catch up mode with this thing.

pyramid6

Jan 30, 2008, 02:29 PM

i was under the impression that the MBAs needed 10.5.2 with air disc or whatever it's called... does this mean that apple is going to release 10.5.2 today?
I was thinking the same thing. How did the reviews do it? I'll be mad if it doesn't come out this week. I'm waiting on it to get a Mac Pro.

P6

gotohamish

Jan 30, 2008, 02:30 PM

filmguy15

Jan 30, 2008, 02:31 PM

MicroZoft has managed to get the studios to do this for the 360 download store with no problems...in HD.

I can't imagine that Apple would be less capable in negotiations than microsoft.

but then that would mean they just couldn't get the code right in time for their own announced deadline...and that would be in line with their recent software efforts.

They are for sure not less capable, BUT the studios seems to dislike Apple a great deal. Especially since they "ruined the music industry" and all...

timothyjay2004

Jan 30, 2008, 02:34 PM

i was under the impression that the MBAs needed 10.5.2 with air disc or whatever it's called... does this mean that apple is going to release 10.5.2 today?

The MBA has a special revision of Mac OS X 10.5.1 shipping on it. It is a different build than what you and I are using right now. The MBA's build will contain feature specific enhancements to it. 10.5.2 will bring everyone onto the same page/build again.

timothyjay2004

Jan 30, 2008, 02:35 PM

How upset? Really? Four whole dollars upset? Jeez, it's the price of a cup of coffee.

First of all, $4 to a college student is a lot of money. lol. And upset that when I come home from being at school all day and at work after that, I'd like to be able to lay on my bed and watch the movie from my TV, not my laptop.

Mindflux

Jan 30, 2008, 02:36 PM

How upset? Really? Four whole dollars upset? Jeez, it's the price of a cup of coffee.

Price of Coffee in coo-coo crazy Starbucks land. :rolleyes:

milo

Jan 30, 2008, 02:38 PM

I bought the :apple:TV the new price point 2 weeks ago. I also rented a movie the next day in anticipation of being able to watch it on my HD TV yesterday.

Why?

Especially why would you rent a movie knowing it would be at least two weeks until you could watch it?

I don't get it.

jnc

Jan 30, 2008, 02:40 PM

Grammar nitpick on http://www.apple.com/startpage/ - "...at it’s maximum height of 0.76-inches, it’s less than the thinnest point on competing notebooks."

:p

akadmon

Jan 30, 2008, 02:41 PM

I don't know if this has been said, but I'm hoping that the reason they have delayed the Apple TV refresh is because they're working hard on the new MBPs :cool:

gotohamish

Jan 30, 2008, 02:41 PM

First of all, $4 to a college student is a lot of money. lol. And upset that when I come home from being at school all day and at work after that, I'd like to be able to lay on my bed and watch the movie from my TV, not my laptop.

I hear you, but my point was more that you ran thank risk by renting it before the software was released, meaning it was always a possibility. it sucks, I know, I'm eager to try it out.

bilbo--baggins

Jan 30, 2008, 02:41 PM

I also rented a movie the next day in anticipation of being able to watch it on my HD TV yesterday. I have about 2 weeks left to watch it and I sure as hell hope that they release the update before the rental expires. I'll be upset if I have to watch it on a small screen verses my HD TV.

Disappointing - but there's no question they'll refund you if the Apple TV update doesn't arrive before your 30 days is up. In fact, I'm sure they'll do something for you even it comes out just before the 30 days is up.

I'm disappointed the update is delayed, and we won't even be getting movies (at all, rented or to buy) for quite some time in the UK...

gotohamish

Jan 30, 2008, 02:42 PM

Price of Coffee in coo-coo crazy Starbucks land. :rolleyes:

And most of Manhattanland, unfortunately, but only Joe (http://www.joetheartofcoffee.com/) is actually worth that price.

filmguy15

Jan 30, 2008, 02:43 PM

milo

Jan 30, 2008, 02:43 PM

I was thinking the same thing. How did the reviews do it? I'll be mad if it doesn't come out this week. I'm waiting on it to get a Mac Pro.

The MBA comes with an installer disk that will let any mac or PC share the optical drive. 10.5.2 may have that code, but the updated OS isn't needed.

What I am talking about is the poor launch / sales performance / and confusing market segment that has plagued the Apple TV.

There's no doubt that the original release was lackluster, but I suspect even apple knew that. Even if they did everything perfectly with the box itself, without content from the studios it wouldn't have done much.

A delay is just a delay. I think it's too early to judge whether version 2 gets it right.

err404

Jan 30, 2008, 02:43 PM

I bought last week in anticipation for v2, but frankly even at v1.1 is a very nice product at a great price.
However I am getting anxious to start converting my library of DVD's to h264, but until v2 comes out nobody knows for sure how 5.1 audio will be handled.
I find that right now it's a bit picky on some compression settings, so I'm afraid to run any conversion until the format support can be really analyzed.

Krevnik

Jan 30, 2008, 02:53 PM

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe they've been reading all the online responses and are adding features and fixing things so it launches as perfect as possible.

Sure, we're ALL disappointed, but with Apple it's usually worth waiting for. I hope.

As a developer myself... I can tell you it ain't features. No chance, no way, no how.

I bet you anything that what happened is that they were in the final test run against the code the week of MWSF. During that run they found a 'ship-stopper' bug, one that you cannot ship the device with (something that makes the software difficult to use, crashes, etc). Once they find such a bug, they have to put off shipping, scramble to fix it, and run the final tests all over again. It takes about 1-2 weeks for something like the Apple TV in terms of complexity, and dependant on if they find any new bugs they missed in the last pass.

Now, this doesn't mean they will find every bug, or that a nasty one won't slip through unfound... but usually the developers stop shipment of an update/etc if a big one is found, even right before sending it out the door.

timothyjay2004

Jan 30, 2008, 02:55 PM

$4 dollars is a lot to a college student?

Yet you own a laptop, an Apple TV, and an HDTV? Hmmmm....

HDTV was a gift. Laptop was graduation present 3 years ago. Apple TV was a present to myself, and I work hard for my money. So, yes, $4 is a lot to a college student. Thank you for your interest into my life.

roland.g

Jan 30, 2008, 02:58 PM

All the negative votes and posts whining about the delay. I wish it was here as expected, but so what it is not. Get on with your lives, a week or two is nothing. Get over yourselves.

sanford

Jan 30, 2008, 02:58 PM

Actually it's more than just the user interface.

They're moving it from Tiger (10.4) to Leopard (10.5) also.

The download itself should be quite large, which might be a part of the problem with the eminent release of 10.5.2. I'm not sure if the two releases are connected, but I wouldn't be surprised in the lease.

Expect it to be closer to one week than two, depending on 10.5.2 (it will be after that release).

Yeah, and what besides watching rented movies, and okay this flickr thing, can't you do with an AppleTV and a PC or Mac now? I mean, I know the interface may get a lot spiffier, and purchasing music/movies from the sofa and listening/watching right away without buying on a computer and then syncing will be nice. But you can pretty much do everything now, save watch rentals and the flickr thing, and the latter is kind of just candy, really.

I've had my ATV since the month they were released and I still can't figure out why so many people think they are so lacking even as they were first released. I have a Blu-ray player, so stepped-on downloadable HD content doesn't much impress me, as what I've seen via other HD downloads really looks no better than standard up-converted DVDs and little better than standard iTunes movies that my HDTV upscales with its own video processing unit. Yeah, 5.1 discrete channel digital audio support for movies will be nice, I'll give you that -- but you know most Apple TV owners are using composite audio connections, so that won't matter; they'll have to go optical or use a *real* HDMI A/V receiver -- about $1,000 for openers; the $500 models are just HDMI pass-through; they're HDMI *switches*, they don't strip and process the digital audio.

Anyway, I look forward to the update. But I've had no ATV qualms at all. It's just like any other home media-sharing device, except not so freaking complicated and it doesn't tend to stop working or "forget" its source for no reason.

timothyjay2004

Jan 30, 2008, 02:59 PM

Why?

Especially why would you rent a movie knowing it would be at least two weeks until you could watch it?

I don't get it.

Two weeks vs. 4 weeks ... that's the difference and why I'm upset. I downloaded it because I wanted to see how long it'd take on my connection. Surprisingly not very long. And I'd have 30 days to watch it. But, with how this is panning out, it'll be 28+ days until I am able to enjoy it how I want to. I mean, yes I can watch it on my laptop, but I'd much rather enjoy it on a larger screen and in a more relaxed state.

timothyjay2004

Jan 30, 2008, 03:00 PM

All the negative votes and posts whining about the delay. I wish it was here as expected, but so what it is not. Get on with your lives, a week or two is nothing. Get over yourselves.

I'm not bitching or complaining, I just wish it'd be here already. It'd be nice is all. And like, I said, I hope that they can get their deadlines back on track. Seems like they've been off ever since the iPhone. I'm sure that they'll get back on track, but I just didn't see it taking this long.

roland.g

Jan 30, 2008, 03:01 PM

Well they never should've said 'in just two weeks' if they weren't sure it was going to be two weeks. I'd say 'one or two weeks' probably means the latter (ie. another two week wait at least). It really is disappointing for customers who bought the product with the initial two week quote in mind.

It's not the end of the world and it's just tough luck to those who did purchase it, but it's hardly something Apple wants to be getting a reputation for, particularly with new customers and an already shaky product.

BTW, it is already a great product not a shaky one. As an :apple:tv owner since April last year, we use ours all the time. My wife loves watching photos on it while listening to music as well as movies and YouTube and trailers, etc. So the rentals are delayed and you just bought yours. Big deal. You should have waited till the software was available then. Or use it now and like it now.

2A Batterie

Jan 30, 2008, 03:03 PM

Why is everyone so grumpy about the Apple TV delay? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it a free update??? I'd rather have something that is free delivered as a quality product in four weeks as opposed to a buggy version in two weeks.

UberDuper

Jan 30, 2008, 03:03 PM

1. At least they are waiting until it's right, instead of giving in to fanboy pressure and releasing a half-a$$ed patch.

You weren't thinking Leopard as you typed this? I was thinking it as I read it. Not even 3 months have gone by since it's release and sp2 is eminent. I dunno about your experience with Leopard, but mine has been terribad. If 10.5.2 doesn't resolve the stability problems I'm headed back to Tiger.

So many Apple fans are completely blinded by their lust for Apple co^H^H products. Apple can, does, and will continue to do wrong by their customers. They will continue to make promises they can't, wont, or never intended to keep because they know they can count on their fans to make their excuses for them.

UD.

roland.g

Jan 30, 2008, 03:03 PM

milo

Jan 30, 2008, 03:09 PM

Yeah, and what besides watching rented movies, and okay this flickr thing, can't you do with an AppleTV and a PC or Mac now?

5.1 surround? People ripping their dvds are waiting on this release (along with an update to Handbrake).

I downloaded it because I wanted to see how long it'd take on my connection. Surprisingly not very long.

And you couldn't just wait and find that out when the new software shipped? You chose to rent time-limited content knowing that you wouldn't be able to watch it for at least half of the time limit. It just doesn't seem very smart to rent that early for no good reason.

timothyjay2004

Jan 30, 2008, 03:10 PM

It's a lose lose sitch. If they announce at MWSF and say February then everybody complains that it will be the end of the month and that it is taking forever. If they announce and say 2 weeks or so, then in 13.99999 days everybody is chomping at the bit, where is it already. But they have to use something major like MWSF to announce it.

I totally agree. There wasn't a better time to announce it than at MacWorld. And I agree that if they had said it'd be out in about a month people would be saying "wtf?". I guess that there are us who get excited and want it sooner than later. In complete honesty, I'd rather wait and have it be the best it can be, have it be a solid build. Than to have it crash or freeze or not work properly. It is a great product and I enjoy using it.

sanford

Jan 30, 2008, 03:11 PM

I'm not bitching or complaining, I just wish it'd be here already. It'd be nice is all. And like, I said, I hope that they can get their deadlines back on track. Seems like they've been off ever since the iPhone. I'm sure that they'll get back on track, but I just didn't see it taking this long.

This is like an illusion. How long have you used Macs? They used to announce products, say they'd be available next month, then it would be like three months before you could get one, minimum.

Leopard was delayed and so noted way in advance.
The iPhone 1.1.2 update everybody acted like it was delayed, but Jobs said "this month" and it was that month, just like the last couple days of that month.
Which other delay did you mention? Anyway two weeks announced delay for the ATV update is like some kind of miracle. They used to say "by the end of the month", and then that would come, no update, then the end of the next month, no update, and you'd be like, End of *which* month exactly?

bommai

Jan 30, 2008, 03:13 PM

Yeah, and what besides watching rented movies, and okay this flickr thing, can't you do with an AppleTV and a PC or Mac now? I mean, I know the interface may get a lot spiffier, and purchasing music/movies from the sofa and listening/watching right away without buying on a computer and then syncing will be nice. But you can pretty much do everything now, save watch rentals and the flickr thing, and the latter is kind of just candy, really.

I've had my ATV since the month they were released and I still can't figure out why so many people think they are so lacking even as they were first released. I have a Blu-ray player, so stepped-on downloadable HD content doesn't much impress me, as what I've seen via other HD downloads really looks no better than standard up-converted DVDs and little better than standard iTunes movies that my HDTV upscales with its own video processing unit. Yeah, 5.1 discrete channel digital audio support for movies will be nice, I'll give you that -- but you know most Apple TV owners are using composite audio connections, so that won't matter; they'll have to go optical or use a *real* HDMI A/V receiver -- about $1,000 for openers; the $500 models are just HDMI pass-through; they're HDMI *switches*, they don't strip and process the digital audio.

Anyway, I look forward to the update. But I've had no ATV qualms at all. It's just like any other home media-sharing device, except not so freaking complicated and it doesn't tend to stop working or "forget" its source for no reason.

While I broadly agree with your assessment, there are two factual errors.

1) "Composite cables" is not the term used for audio. Just say RCA stereo audio cables. For people using AppleTV to HDTV using HDMI, they don't need anything but HDMI cable. Still only stereo though.

2) HDMI audio processing receivers are pretty cheap now a days. About $400. Check for Sony 910, Onkyo 605, H/K 247, Yamaha 661, etc. These are low end receivers but they process multi channel audio through HDMI including PCM 5.1 (some 7.1). I prefer the H/K sound (I own a H/K 745).

compuguy1088

Jan 30, 2008, 03:15 PM

As a developer myself... I can tell you it ain't features. No chance, no way, no how.

I bet you anything that what happened is that they were in the final test run against the code the week of MWSF. During that run they found a 'ship-stopper' bug, one that you cannot ship the device with (something that makes the software difficult to use, crashes, etc). Once they find such a bug, they have to put off shipping, scramble to fix it, and run the final tests all over again. It takes about 1-2 weeks for something like the Apple TV in terms of complexity, and dependant on if they find any new bugs they missed in the last pass.

Now, this doesn't mean they will find every bug, or that a nasty one won't slip through unfound... but usually the developers stop shipment of an update/etc if a big one is found, even right before sending it out the door.

Agreed. It sounds like a show-stopper bug has delayed it to me as well.

christopher3071

Jan 30, 2008, 03:15 PM

Just like apple delayed Leopard's release to get the iPhone out on schedule I'm sure apple is putting more resources to get the newest update to Leopard for the Macbook Air support before people actually get their Macbook Airs or at least soon after. What good is being promised to borrow a disc drive from another computer when the OS doesn't support it yet? I'm sure apple is more worried about getting this done than making their update to appleTV. I realize at the same time that appleTV will also be very high on the priority list bringing in considerably large revenues as well but I think the issue at hand is the Leopard update first.

that's just my two cents.

sanford

Jan 30, 2008, 03:16 PM

5.1 surround? People ripping their dvds are waiting on this release (along with an update to Handbrake).

Milo, like real my full post, then point out what I missed.

"Yeah, 5.1 discrete channel digital audio support for movies will be nice, I'll give you that..."

Now, you do have an optical or *real* HDMI connection to a proper 5.1 A/V receiver, right? Cause if you're using composite to anything, or HDMI to your HDTV, or HDMI to one of these pass-through receivers, you'll be enjoying a lovely ProLogic II simulation, pretty much as you are now.

gotohamish

Jan 30, 2008, 03:16 PM

timothyjay2004

Jan 30, 2008, 03:17 PM

And you couldn't just wait and find that out when the new software shipped? You chose to rent time-limited content knowing that you wouldn't be able to watch it for at least half of the time limit. It just doesn't seem very smart to rent that early for no good reason.

Thing is, we can all watch it anytime we want to, which was another reason I wanted to see how well it'd download. I anticipated that I'd be able to enjoy it on a larger screen. That's how I'd LIKE to view it. If it doesn't happen that way, I'll be a little disappointed. But I can still watch it on my laptop. I guess upset is the wrong word. Disappointed is more appropriate.

pcorajr

Jan 30, 2008, 03:19 PM

Hopefully this means that the 10.5.2 is coming out soon since the Air is shipping? Don't the update bring support for Remote Disc drive?

pyramid6

Jan 30, 2008, 03:21 PM

For some of us there is missing functionality in software that we use. Others there are bugs that prevent the use of features/software. Yeah, we're grumping and yes we complain. We're freakin' customers. Why shouldn't we complain. Yes, we vote stuff down. A delay no matter how valid is a negative.

The only thing that pisses me off about Apple, is the lack of communication. I would rather have bad news, than no news. So announcing the delay is actually good for Apple.

P6

pyramid6

Jan 30, 2008, 03:22 PM

Hopefully this means that the 10.5.2 is coming out soon since the Air is shipping? Don't the update bring support for Remote Disc drive?
Question has already been asked and answered. No, it doesn't need it.

P6

KingPumpkin

Jan 30, 2008, 03:23 PM

UberDuper

Jan 30, 2008, 03:24 PM

Milo, like real my full post, then point out what I missed.

"Yeah, 5.1 discrete channel digital audio support for movies will be nice, I'll give you that..."

Now, you do have an optical or *real* HDMI connection to a proper 5.1 A/V receiver, right? Cause if you're using composite to anything, or HDMI to your HDTV, or HDMI to one of these pass-through receivers, you'll be enjoying a lovely ProLogic II simulation, pretty much as you are now.

I think those of us that care about this are hoping the AppleTV will realtime convert to ac3 just like the 360 does. The AppleTV does currently realtime convert to DPLII. If Apple switches containers on us so they can include an ac3 stream in rentals... well that will suck.
Does anyone not have a dolby digital receiver these days?

UD.

milo

Jan 30, 2008, 03:24 PM

Just like apple delayed Leopard's release to get the iPhone out on schedule I'm sure apple is putting more resources to get the newest update to Leopard for the Macbook Air support before people actually get their Macbook Airs or at least soon after. What good is being promised to borrow a disc drive from another computer when the OS doesn't support it yet?

You don't need 10.5.2 to share optical drives, the MBA comes with an install disk with that driver (mac and PC). And the two products have completely different teams working on them, it would make no sense to try and steal resources (other than just testers), especially for only a couple weeks.

MacAddict1978

Jan 30, 2008, 03:28 PM

i was under the impression that the MBAs needed 10.5.2 with air disc or whatever it's called... does this mean that apple is going to release 10.5.2 today?

MBA has its own software for its various functions, as do pretty much other models of MACS.

I think this is just wishful thinking on everyone's part.

The MBA is also the only Mac that will have the functionality of booting from another computers optical drive. I think people are confusing that with Airport Disk Mode that we all hoped to see in 10.5.2. (and rumored not be there.)

Still.... I hope it launches today!

milo

Jan 30, 2008, 03:31 PM

Now, you do have an optical or *real* HDMI connection to a proper 5.1 A/V receiver, right?

Yes, optical. And it does sound damn good.

As I said, not only is the 5.1 thing an issue for watching movies, it's making people wait on ripping their movies (and the developers of handbrake and other ripping apps). Not only is the feature not available yet, but people can't analyze how it works and format content for it.

I was under the impression that if you rented a movie on your computer that you would not be able to move it to the Apple TV. I thought the only way to get a movie rental on the Apple TV was via the Apple TV interface. I could be wrong, though.

You can go from computer to aTV, just not the other way around. I bet a major reason is because they'll be selling movies via aTV that have an ac3 track for the surround sound.

AppleMojo

Jan 30, 2008, 03:37 PM

If the update was so crucial to your use of a new aTV, why didn't you just wait until the update was out before buying the hardware?

I agree with you; all of the whiners in here in total amount to not much... but they sure can make it seem like there are a lot more of them than there really is. The loud minority...

It was pretty silly to throw down cash on a PR presentation comment about an update being available in a few weeks. Then, not take responsibility and blame Apple.

Then again, I am really not that surprised.

However, there are some who did buy it after the keynote, that aren't whining and are waiting patiently for the update.

Vorst

Jan 30, 2008, 03:38 PM

I feeling a bit like a fool answer on this thread but I do it anyway.
If seems that some people loosing complete the reality of what is acceptable. If somebody tells me I had to wait 1 years to get this promised solution had fully accept but if somebody cries that he had to wait another 2 weeks and lost 4$ dollars because of it!!!! You can say whatever you want on a forum and I'm the first one to keep it that way but I feel this is way over the edge in my mind.
Who is buying a red iPod to help the people who really need it? Global Fund to fight HIV/AIDS in Africa.
These guys most probably have to wait way longer to get some help from our sticky rich countries and they will accepted those delays with a smile.

christopher3071

Jan 30, 2008, 03:38 PM

You don't need 10.5.2 to share optical drives, the MBA comes with an install disk with that driver (mac and PC). And the two products have completely different teams working on them, it would make no sense to try and steal resources (other than just testers), especially for only a couple weeks.

I wasn't aware it shipped with a driver disk. My mistake.

twoodcc

Jan 30, 2008, 03:38 PM

wow. another delay? come on apple. you know we don't like delays.

at least the Air is shipping. in stores friday?

sanford

Jan 30, 2008, 03:41 PM

While I broadly agree with your assessment, there are two factual errors.

1) "Composite cables" is not the term used for audio. Just say RCA stereo audio cables. For people using AppleTV to HDTV using HDMI, they don't need anything but HDMI cable. Still only stereo though.

2) HDMI audio processing receivers are pretty cheap now a days. About $400. Check for Sony 910, Onkyo 605, H/K 247, Yamaha 661, etc. These are low end receivers but they process multi channel audio through HDMI including PCM 5.1 (some 7.1). I prefer the H/K sound (I own a H/K 745).

Yeah, yeah I know. But most audio cable packaging reads "composite", so most people who are connected to RCA audio inputs and think they have digital surround call them composite cables.

Sony, blech. I checked the Onkyo and can't find anything definitive indicating it's more than a switch, but I'll take your word for it. Plus it's 7.1 90 watts/channel, both of which are pointless in most listening spaces, so I'd feel like I was wasting money.

And you gotta tell me why the H/K 745? For the video processor? I mean I like the H/K sound just fine, but unless you just bought the thing recently after the price has dropped way low, for the $3,000 you would have paid not too long back, you're starting to head into Sunfire territory. Which of course no one can really hear the difference in Sunfire equipment, either, over a cheap 5.1 Onkyo, but at least you can say you own Sunfire, like owning a Lexus or something.

AppleMojo

Jan 30, 2008, 03:52 PM

Two weeks vs. 4 weeks ... that's the difference and why I'm upset. I downloaded it because I wanted to see how long it'd take on my connection. Surprisingly not very long. And I'd have 30 days to watch it. But, with how this is panning out, it'll be 28+ days until I am able to enjoy it how I want to. I mean, yes I can watch it on my laptop, but I'd much rather enjoy it on a larger screen and in a more relaxed state.

I'd have to say that was rather silly (in regards to the Apple TV portion).

If you think you are justified, then hey... what do we care? Just don't whine here about it.

lol - and all of this over less than $5... I will bet you have a lot of disappointments in your life that are similar to this.

I personally, make several poor decisions a year... but choose not to broadcast to the world my lack of judgement.

UMHurricanes34

Jan 30, 2008, 03:58 PM

Avatar74

Jan 30, 2008, 04:08 PM

Yeah, yeah I know. But most audio cable packaging reads "composite", so most people who are connected to RCA audio inputs and think they have digital surround call them composite cables.

But you weren't talking with most people when you said "composite audio"... Hey, just being fair. :D

Sony, blech. I checked the Onkyo and can't find anything definitive indicating it's more than a switch, but I'll take your word for it. Plus it's 7.1 90 watts/channel, both of which are pointless in most listening spaces, so I'd feel like I was wasting money.

"Sony, blech"? I've done professional 5.1 mixes certified to bear the Dolby trademark for meeting their analysts' fidelity criteria. I use a Sony ES receiver in my home theater. Onkyo I can't comment on...

And you gotta tell me why the H/K 745? For the video processor? I mean I like the H/K sound just fine, but unless you just bought the thing recently after the price has dropped way low, for the $3,000 you would have paid not too long back, you're starting to head into Sunfire territory. Which of course no one can really hear the difference in Sunfire equipment, either, over a cheap 5.1 Onkyo, but at least you can say you own Sunfire, like owning a Lexus or something.

Ok now I'm not sure who is on which side of the audiophile snob fence here...

You dismiss sony but simultaneously call Harman Kardon overkill? I'm not endorsing Sid Harman's junk (Infinity, JBL, HK, etc.) ... they have some good brands too like Lexicon and dbx on the pro side... but I don't get it.

Can you explain why you think Sony is junk and what you'd recommend instead?

jouster

Jan 30, 2008, 04:11 PM

Disappointing - but there's no question they'll refund you if the Apple TV update doesn't arrive before your 30 days is up. In fact, I'm sure they'll do something for you even it comes out just before the 30 days is up.

Why? You can watch it on your computer. They gave no guarantees on the exact time of the TV update.

Maccus Aurelius

Jan 30, 2008, 04:19 PM

How upset? Really? Four whole dollars upset? Jeez, it's the price of a cup of coffee.

$4 for coffee? Outrageous! :p

Anyway, it would've been considerably worse if the Air was delayed.

HLdan

Jan 30, 2008, 04:21 PM

Son of a! I bought the AppleTV after the keynote and have been waiting ever since.

I understand when you buy something you expect it to be as it's suppose to be but it's only been 2 weeks since Macworld. Be patient, it's a free update.

HLdan

Jan 30, 2008, 04:29 PM

First of all, $4 to a college student is a lot of money. lol. And upset that when I come home from being at school all day and at work after that, I'd like to be able to lay on my bed and watch the movie from my TV, not my laptop.

Hmm, if $4 is a lot to "college student" then what the hell does a "college student" doing with an AppleTV? You can rent movies for dirt cheap anywhere.
I wish you college students on the board stop acting like you are POOR victims. Many of you have Macbook Pros when all you really need is a basic Mac to get through school.
This "college student" crap is getting tired. There are people on this board less fortune than you, some people here support families and can't afford to go to college or buy Apple toys so pipe down.:p

pondie84

Jan 30, 2008, 04:30 PM

BTW, it is already a great product not a shaky one. As an :apple:tv owner since April last year, we use ours all the time. My wife loves watching photos on it while listening to music as well as movies and YouTube and trailers, etc. So the rentals are delayed and you just bought yours. Big deal. You should have waited till the software was available then. Or use it now and like it now.

I didn't mean shaky technically, I meant shaky commercially. I'm not aware the apple tv has been a great commercial success but please correct me if I'm wrong.

I didn't actually purchase the apple tv so I'm not 'whinging' or anything. While I personally don't own one I can see what the benefits of the product would be and have seriously considered it from time to time. I'm also not complaining about the rentals because I will never use that service in any case. I watch all my movies when they're on at the cinema and rarely see the need to watch them again.

There's really no need to be so rude just because I offered an opinion. You say 'Big deal' to me... well I did actually acknowledge it wasn't a big deal when I said 'It's not the end of the world'. However, I also offered my opinion as to why it's not good PR to announce a release and then have to announce a delay.

HLdan

Jan 30, 2008, 04:44 PM

Hopefully this means that the 10.5.2 is coming out soon since the Air is shipping? Don't the update bring support for Remote Disc drive?

Once and for all where did Apple ever say that 10.5.2 was required for Remote Disc? I was at Macworld and they were demoing Remote Disc and I personally checked the System Profiler and it said 10.5.1.

sanford

Jan 30, 2008, 05:20 PM

:)

You know, that was totally unfair. Pre-digital I had a Sony PL A/V I loved, for years. I have a Sony center and two surrounds. (I had two Sony full-size fronts, but in small cabinets, and they were on the floor; I had to get them up off the floor and had no place to put them. So I went shopping for a couple stands. All the stands these days are made for the little micro-size surround-kit loudspeakers. To get top platforms big enough for the fronts, it was $100 for the pair of stands. The audio store where I went for the stands had a few discontinued $250 a pop Polks in cabinets the perfect height, on get-rid-of-them-now clearance for $40 apiece, cheaper than the freaking stands. Plus these Polks have a bit more presence than the Sonys; you know, not *louder*, I just think I get a little more "detail" listening to music, especially LPs -- movies, nyah, I can't tell, but for a lot of music, a bit better.)

The "blech" came from one analog Sony PLII my wife had, still have around here somewhere. Sounded fine, really, it was just that it was like a damn desert on available inputs. It wasn't marketed to people who were going to connect more than a VCR and a CD deck, which was perfectly my wife before I married her. But that thing hassled me, though there was nothing wrong with it one bit for its target market. My Blu-ray players are Sony. I'm cool with Sony, I just have this bizarre hangover resentment against that Sony PLII receiver and its input shortage. The "blech" was just a personal thing; Sony isn't junk.

I like my clearance-price Onkyo 5.1 -- God bless HDMI for knocking the price of models without HDMI pass-through down into the dirt. Any comparable Sony I'd like just as much.

You'd like this: I was in one of these consumer electronics chains, Best Buy or Circuit City, some place like that, struck up a conversation with the "audio expert". He had what he swore was a 100 watts/channel, not 100 watts aggregate, receiver -- I mean I asked for clarification on that, and he swore *per channel* and no tomfoolery on the specs. He didn't like it so much because it was "a little underpowered". I asked him how much he was paying in rent to live on the field in the Astrodome. I don't think he got it, though.

Speaking of Sid Harman, I gotta admit Bob Carver and his Sunfire rap drive me bonkers, too. Sure his gear *looks* nice. Sure, a machine may tell the difference, but a human being? I mean today we have guys with the knack -- no, not the band, people -- producing major-label records in freaking GarageBand, and then lying about it and *no one can even tell*. At the same time you gotta drop two grand on an A/V receiver, minimum, or you won't get "the full audio experience today's technology brings you." Uh, yeah.

But you weren't talking with most people when you said "composite audio"... Hey, just being fair. :D

"Sony, blech"? I've done professional 5.1 mixes certified to bear the Dolby trademark for meeting their analysts' fidelity criteria. I use a Sony ES receiver in my home theater. Onkyo I can't comment on...

Ok now I'm not sure who is on which side of the audiophile snob fence here...

You dismiss sony but simultaneously call Harman Kardon overkill? I'm not endorsing Sid Harman's junk (Infinity, JBL, HK, etc.) ... they have some good brands too like Lexicon and dbx on the pro side... but I don't get it.

Can you explain why you think Sony is junk and what you'd recommend instead?

zedsdead

Jan 30, 2008, 05:25 PM

The Apple TV thing does suck, but what are you going to do.

Much more excited about the Macbook Air, but I have the SSD version and that still appears to not be shipping until Tuesday at the earliest.

macfan881

Jan 30, 2008, 05:28 PM

Hey stop whining please atleast you dont have to pay 20 bucks for new features....:p

EagerDragon

Jan 30, 2008, 05:43 PM

This reminds me of an old programming saying:
You can have the new software to be quality, fast, or cheap, pick two.

In other words you can have the software correct and complete or you can have it developed fast, or you can have it delivered within budget, pick two.

Unfortunately as we all seen Micro$oft only picks one and delivers none, the software takes forever to come out, is well over budget and is ussualy full of features/bugs.

Lately we seen Apple picking two and delivering only one or none. Many of the products lately are late, with incomplete features and full of significant bugs. They are rushing too much, not sure why, as they do not have that much competition in a lot of products since Apple a lot of times is offering something no one else can offer.

While competition is usually good for consumers, competition also causes companies to deliver less quality to ensure they get to market sooner and sometimes they also cut features out and deliver them much later.

IMHO this is what is happening, and we are the beta testers of their "production ready" software and hardware.

I like Apple a lot and I am a very entusiatic Mac fan, hardware and software systems are a lot more complex and Apple is not taking the time to deliver a quality product in every case.

The Intel transition is a very good example, lots of hardware issues every time they release a new product and then they release a software patch to mask or prevent the hardware issue. Then several months later they release the new logic board with the issue corrected after they get new chips that do not have the issue and run some new leads between some of the chips.

Lots of examples: iPhone speaker, iPhone reception, Leopard lots of bugs and features missing, Time Machine, Airport Extreme, Macbook case with staining and cracking, MacBookPro screens, LED off color, and many more.

If you look at all these I think you will agree that Apple seem to have limited talented personnel for some of the projects, needs more people in QA, needs better QA USE-Cases, and needs to allocate more time for the projects.

Some of you may disagree, but if you let it sink in before you flame me, I think you will come to a similar conclusion.:apple:

lkrupp

Jan 30, 2008, 05:45 PM

bilbo--baggins

Jan 30, 2008, 06:00 PM

Why? You can watch it on your computer. They gave no guarantees on the exact time of the TV update.

Like others have said, it's only $4.00. Apple aren't going to piss off their customers by standing firm on issues like this. IF someone complains that their computer crashed while watching a movie, or whatever else excuse I'm sure they'll just give a free download credit to keep their customers happy.

sanford

Jan 30, 2008, 06:13 PM

What's the big deal with the MBA shipping? Didn't every single poster in the known Mac universe rant that the MBA was DOA and that nobody would purchase them because (insert deal killing missing feature here)? So how could Apple ship any if nobody bought any because they're lacking so many show stopping features that are absolutely necessary for a laptop to have?

And yes, I'm being extremely sarcastic and condescending.:mad:

I think there are three camps, brother. Haters, lovers and the celibate monks of the laptop world. The haters hate for the feature trade-offs disregarding the fact it works and it's nice looking kit; the lovers are dying for it, explaining away, often with no logic at all whatsoever, valid usability concerns. The monks absolutely admit it's whizzy but for many, many people impractical as a second computer, and for just about every computer user, totally impractical as a one-and-only computer. You can figure how the haters and lovers vote. The monks vote, if you like it, you can deal with the limitations without major frustrations, you have the money and will not fail to feed your kids or the like to get this thing, then go for it. The MacBook Air is an $800 pair of off-the-rack shoes. Looks and style, but you wouldn't want to do much walking about town in them. But that doesn't mean you don't want looks and style on your feet from time to time; you cab it that night.

GQB

Jan 30, 2008, 06:48 PM

You weren't thinking Leopard as you typed this? I was thinking it as I read it. Not even 3 months have gone by since it's release and sp2 is eminent. I dunno about your experience with Leopard, but mine has been terribad. If 10.5.2 doesn't resolve the stability problems I'm headed back to Tiger.

So many Apple fans are completely blinded by their lust for Apple co^H^H products. Apple can, does, and will continue to do wrong by their customers. They will continue to make promises they can't, wont, or never intended to keep because they know they can count on their fans to make their excuses for them.

UD.

What a whiny load of crap. Sorry, but "promises they can't, wont, or never intended to keep" is just nonsense.

BWhaler

Jan 30, 2008, 06:51 PM

Kevin_B

Jan 30, 2008, 06:56 PM

While everyone is b!tching about the delay of the :apple:tv take 2 software update (myself included, being that I bought one last week), just think about how Apple must feel! I mean - every day they postpone the release is one day's less worth of movie rental revenue. Combined with the purchases that :apple:tv owners might be making that they wouldn't otherwise, and the net result is that they're loosing out on huge $$$ by postponing the update.

I'm not about to go as far as to say that we should applaud Apple for making "such a sacrifice" for the sake of stable software or whatever, but I think it's worth noting that it probably sucks a lot more for them than it does for us...

Cheers,

Kevin

GQB

Jan 30, 2008, 07:10 PM

This press release concerns me.

Kinda feels slimey and crappy big company to bury bad news like this.

At least Apple is not shipping a crappy product before it's ready. Yes, Leopard, I am looking at you.

Where is this "Leopard is crap" meme coming from?
I've been running it for 2 months of heavy use on 2 machines (high end and low) with zero issues. Really curious.
If there are some catastrophic issues with it, I'd like to know so that I can keep an eye out for them.
Or maybe 'crappy product' means "someone somewhere said something... I think".

sanford

Jan 30, 2008, 07:23 PM

Where is this "Leopard is crap" meme coming from?

I think it's the new "3D" dock. It's terrorized a lot of people, causes intractable vertigo, something like that. Otherwise, I couldn't tell you. Leopard all rock steady here.

iCeFuSiOn

Jan 30, 2008, 07:27 PM

I think it's the new "3D" dock. It's terrorized a lot of people, causes intractable vertigo, something like that. Otherwise, I couldn't tell you. Leopard all rock steady here.
You can change that with a defaults write command, problem solved.

zedsdead

Jan 30, 2008, 07:27 PM

I think it's the new "3D" dock. It's terrorized a lot of people, causes intractable vertigo, something like that. Otherwise, I couldn't tell you. Leopard all rock steady here.

Same with me...except for Back to my Mac...Apple failed big time on that one. Still is not working correctly.

SthrnCmfrtr

Jan 30, 2008, 07:59 PM

timothyjay2004

Jan 30, 2008, 08:10 PM

Hmm, if $4 is a lot to "college student" then what the hell does a "college student" doing with an AppleTV? You can rent movies for dirt cheap anywhere.
I wish you college students on the board stop acting like you are POOR victims. Many of you have Macbook Pros when all you really need is a basic Mac to get through school.
This "college student" crap is getting tired. There are people on this board less fortune than you, some people here support families and can't afford to go to college or buy Apple toys so pipe down.:p

First of all, I have a 1Ghz iBook G4. I don't have the privilege of owning a beautiful machine such as the macbook pro, or even a new macbook, so video doesn't do all too well on it. The AppleTV was bought using a gift card from friends (since they knew I wanted one) and a little extra from myself, nosey. I work to pay for school, so when I use the money I work for to buy something that was supposed to have an update by now, it's frustrating. No, realistically, $4 is not a lot of money (Who the ***** cares?), but it is to someone who works hard for the money that they do have and who has to put forth 99.9% of everything they make towards payments to school without loans, such as I. What the original point, which everyone is eluding to, was that it'd be nice to be able to watch the damn movie from something that has the ability to do so, more so than my iBook. That's my issue. Yeah, fine, maybe I should have waited to download the movie. Again, not the issue that I raised. The issue I raised was, if the software was released on time, then I'd be able to do so, which would have been nice. BUT, like I said earlier, I'd rather have the update be stable and work well than crash and not work.

My biggest wish is that Apple gets back onto the track they had pre-iphone. And I also hope that some people on here grow up. The "omg he thinks $4 is a lot of money" and the "how can he afford that stuff if he's so poor". You don't know me. You don't know my circumstances, nor how my life is or structured. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I voiced mine. And as a result, 4 people have acted like children over it. Wow...

whatever

Jan 30, 2008, 09:16 PM

What I am talking about is the poor launch / sales performance / and confusing market segment that has plagued the Apple TV.

Can't comment on "cool" factor - thus far (may change) the Apple TV has been a disappointment for Apple. And NO - I do not own one and, like many others, will NOT own one until the feature set becomes attractive. I'm not a COMCAST fanboy but we have been renting HD movies for some time now w/o needing additional hardware and having the choice of MANY movies from the vast COMCAST library - it is 2008 and still no Apple HD online - Apple is still in a catch up mode with this thing.

"Vast Comcast Library", unless your Comcast has a different list of movies than mine, we're talking about under 100 OnDemand Rental Movies (about 20 are in HD and when I say HD I'm not talking about 1080P (you won't find a channel on Comcast in 1080P), because Comcast does not specify, but trust me most of it is 720P (because that's what they consider to be HD).

And you do need additional hardware, it's called a digital cable box that you paying for. So let's pretend that box cost $10.00 a month, in two years that will cost you more than an Apple TV and guess what, you still don't own it and have to pay Comcast more whenever they decide to raise the price.

I do feel that if the Apple TV was independent of a computer upon launch it would have sold more, the fact that Apple is offering a pretty large update for free is pretty amazing. I for one know that if I had to buy a brand new Apple TV to get the new features I would, because the existing product was not a disappointment and the new features are worth the money.

whatever

Jan 30, 2008, 09:29 PM

HDTV was a gift. Laptop was graduation present 3 years ago. Apple TV was a present to myself, and I work hard for my money. So, yes, $4 is a lot to a college student. Thank you for your interest into my life.

Where do you live that $4.00 is a lot of money to you? In the US. I don't mean to be a jerk, but back in 1986 when I was in college and I worked part time washing pots at the school cafeteria, $4.00 wasn't a lot of money (granted I was making $4.50 an hour....).

AidenShaw

Jan 30, 2008, 10:22 PM

...but trust me most of it is 720P (because that's what they consider to be HD).

Apple also calls 720p "HD", and Apple even has the cajones to claim that 4 Mbps is "stunning HD".

The only thing "stunning" about a 4 Mbps stream is the fuzziness and the number of compression artifacts that you get to experience.

There's no doubt why no Blu-ray announcement happened at MacWorld - Apple would have been embarrassed if people could see a Blu-ray picture in the same building with the Apple TV II demos....

netdoc66

Jan 30, 2008, 10:29 PM

Apple TV is being delayed because Apple knows that the software update will most likely fail based on all the idiots pressing the update button. They figure let the software creep into people's ATV while they're not paying attention that way the strain on getting this software out to all the morons pressing the button will be lessen. Thanks moron's Apples making all of us wait because you all have the combined mental capacity of a single sperm cell:D

Qubits

Jan 30, 2008, 11:30 PM

The delay must be Steve's "One More Thing", it was missing from the original keynote. :rolleyes:

HLdan

Jan 30, 2008, 11:40 PM

And I also hope that some people on here grow up. The "omg he thinks $4 is a lot of money" and the "how can he afford that stuff if he's so poor". You don't know me. You don't know my circumstances, nor how my life is or structured. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I voiced mine. And as a result, 4 people have acted like children over it. Wow...

What a selfish sounding post. You need to grow up. You were the one that mentioned all the toys you have and stated that $4 was a lot to you. The fact remains that you paid for the movie rental so you have no one to be disappointed at but yourself.

Lastly dude, try to understand that others on this forum have 3 times the financial responsibilities as you so we are not joining your pity party. My rant is over, I'm done posting.

HLdan

Jan 30, 2008, 11:46 PM

While everyone is b!tching about the delay of the :apple:tv take 2 software update (myself included, being that I bought one last week), just think about how Apple must feel! I mean - every day they postpone the release is one day's less worth of movie rental revenue. Combined with the purchases that :apple:tv owners might be making that they wouldn't otherwise, and the net result is that they're loosing out on huge $$$ by postponing the update.

Kevin

Absolutely agree. Without posting the update Apple gets no movie rental revenue. They are not purposely holding back on the release, if that were true they would be hurting the company.

pondie84

Jan 31, 2008, 12:03 AM

Marinbob

Jan 31, 2008, 12:07 AM

Anyone know how long from prepared for shipment to the actual date of shipment takes?
Marinbob

AidenShaw

Jan 31, 2008, 12:19 AM

Thanks moron's Apples making all of us wait because you all have the combined mental capacity of a single sperm cell:D

But tests have shown that five out of seven sperm cells know that the correct punctuation of that sentence begins:

"Thanks, morons. Apple's making all of us..."

HLdan

Jan 31, 2008, 12:28 AM

Whether they're holding it back purposely or not is completely irrelevant. If a company states a product will be out by a certain time then they have to deal with customer dissatisfaction should they not be able to meet those timelines. In this case, the time delay is relatively minor. Still, any delay damages the reputation of a company and causes people to have negative impressions when they next watch a key note speech.

I'm sure Apple can live with that... but I wouldn't dismiss people's complaints.

Oh I'm not dismissing people's complaints. The people who are actually waiting for the update (not making purchases prematurely) have every right to be disappointed.
Unfortunately your analysis of this would make every company go out of business.
Microsoft should have been out of business years ago. Vista was delayed forever, service pack 1 still has yet to be released and Vista has been out a year as of today. Thank goodness Leopard is not in the hands of Microsoft or this forum would be trying to pull people together for lawsuits.

I remember when Dell announced the release of the m1330. People ordered it and Dell wasn't shipping for over 2 months. This is not unusual about a company.

I ordered the Time Capsule. Steve Jobs said they would be shipping in Feb. Well he certainly didn't say the end of Feb, because my shipping date is Feb 29th and delivery is for March 6th. I need it now but I ain't complaining, I'm sure Apple has reasons for it. They are not charging my credit card until the day it ships so I can be patient, this forum would be a lot less stressed out if they learned patience and not complain so much.

pondie84

Jan 31, 2008, 12:32 AM

Yes I agree with you overall. I just think Apple would be better off not giving time frames, or giving overly generous time frames (eg. in a few weeks, rather than 'in just two weeks').

I suppose in the end, the majority of their customers won't obsess over details such as this! Still, it would've made a lot more sense to have the update ready to go straight after the keynote. You have to wonder how hastily the idea was put together. I remember after the keynote people in my office were talking with interest about the itunes rentals (although not really understanding it). All the interest has died away now. What would've been smarter would've been having things all ready to go right away to try and capture the flash of interest.

Apple Corps

Jan 31, 2008, 01:01 AM

whatever - no additional hardware is needed - full cable service requires a converter and I have the HD version - only 1 piece of hardware for all the cable service. Our library is well beyond 100 - maybe Boston has a problem.

The sales of the Apple TV have been POOR - a generally accepted assessment. It has been a confusing offering and STILL NO HD as of today. Also - even when HD rentals arrive they will not be available in 1080 with Apple TV.

NOT one of Apple's better products / launches - stuck in a holding pattern for how long?

megatronbomb

Jan 31, 2008, 01:30 AM

Where do you live that $4.00 is a lot of money to you? In the US. I don't mean to be a jerk, but back in 1986 when I was in college and I worked part time washing pots at the school cafeteria, $4.00 wasn't a lot of money (granted I was making $4.50 an hour....).

Higher education costs have skyrocketed over the past few years. Comparing what you paid over 20 years ago to what's being paid today isn't really applicable.

MacFly123

Jan 31, 2008, 02:06 AM

Appears Apple has software engineers who can't meet their schedules...boo
Has anything been on time in the last year?

So you think that the new software for Apple TV will be Leopard based now instead of Tiger??? Maybe that is why. But if that is the case is the OS X team working on all this stuff, Leopard, 10.5.2, iPod, iPhone, Apple TV, or are there different teams for each product? They all run OS X now so how does that work? Either way it looks like they need to hire on some more software engineers.

AidenShaw

Jan 31, 2008, 10:10 AM

Also - even when HD rentals arrive they will not be available in 1080 with Apple TV.

Right, the "HD" from Apple is 720p at about 4 Mbps.

That means that you have about 3 times as many pixels as a DVD, at about half the bandwidth of a DVD.

A DVD up-converted to 1080p should be better quality than the Apple "HD" at 1080.... Not to mention that the DVD soundtrack won't be a 160Kbps AAC stream.

Too bad that "HD" seems to refer only to the pixel count of the image, not the quality of the movie.

NightStorm

Jan 31, 2008, 10:19 AM

Right, the "HD" from Apple is 720p at about 4 Mbps.

That means that you have about 3 times as many pixels as a DVD, at about half the bandwidth of a DVD.

A DVD up-converted to 1080p should be better quality than the Apple "HD" at 1080.... Not to mention that the DVD soundtrack won't be a 160Kbps AAC stream.

Too bad that "HD" seems to refer only to the pixel count of the image, not the quality of the movie.
You're not taking into account the improvements in compression going from MPEG2 to H.264.

Also, Apple has already stated that AC3 5.1 will be available on HD rentals. Plus, if you look at bitrates per channel, 160kbps (80kbps/channel) AAC is about on-par with what you would find in an AC3 stream (384kbps/6 = 64kbps per channel or 440kbps/6 = 73.3kbps per channel) -- albeit only with 2-channels, and again improvements in compression help here too.

In the end, the specification for HD is based on resolution only. So 1280x720 @ 250kbps is just as much HD as 1280x720 @ 18Mbps.

mrrory

Jan 31, 2008, 10:40 AM

Guess we can all stop hitting the software update button. :(

Yeh, that's so annoying though... I bought my AppleTV the day of the keynote and have been really looking forward to the update :( ho-hum...

filmguy15

Jan 31, 2008, 10:43 AM

Well, why don't we reserve judgement on Apple's HD quality until we actually see it on our TVs? We really don't have any room to comment until we see it. Anyway, to the "$4 Guy":

I wasn't attacking you with my comments, and I am sorry that it came off that way. Gotta love text...you can't hear the way I say things lol Just messing around. I too am in the same boat, I am in college and I own a new Mac Pro, Projector, Apple TV, iPhone....

Funny side note. It seems like the trend on my campus is to take out extra cash via student loans, and buy a new Apple product every year or so. Cause, you don't have to pay it back now, right? ;)

Son of Matrix

Jan 31, 2008, 11:40 AM

where the h*ck is the new Mac ProBoookkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk.................................

Krevnik

Jan 31, 2008, 05:00 PM

Apple also calls 720p "HD", and Apple even has the cajones to claim that 4 Mbps is "stunning HD".

720p is HD. Just that HD includes both 720 lines and 1080 lines in the spec as valid resolutions. You ain't gonna be streaming 1080p content anytime soon.

The only thing "stunning" about a 4 Mbps stream is the fuzziness and the number of compression artifacts that you get to experience.

Depends on the codec, the content, and the people doing the compression. I have a couple 720p encodes from 1080p source at under 4Mbps that turned out pretty darn good, considering. Took a fair amount of effort and tweaking of settings to pull it off though. A monkey in front of an encoder can't produce a one-button encode at 4Mbps with high quality, definitely not.

crjeong

Jan 31, 2008, 06:19 PM

Right, the "HD" from Apple is 720p at about 4 Mbps.

That means that you have about 3 times as many pixels as a DVD, at about half the bandwidth of a DVD.

A DVD up-converted to 1080p should be better quality than the Apple "HD" at 1080.... Not to mention that the DVD soundtrack won't be a 160Kbps AAC stream.

Too bad that "HD" seems to refer only to the pixel count of the image, not the quality of the movie.

Don't forget that DVDs are 480i anamorphic, where as Apple's HD will be 720p square pixels.

Even with the bit rate being lower than DVD, it will still contain many more pixels and will appear much crisper on your HDTV. DVDs will always look slightly blurry due to the fact that the image is stretched horizontally to make it widescreen.

rtdunham

Jan 31, 2008, 09:23 PM

...Apple also calls 720p "HD"...

What do I know? But i bet David Pogue knows. Here're excerpts from his New York Times column this week on HD. It's in the form of Q&A between him and a Best Buy salesperson Pogue thought he'd catch in misrepresentations, but whose answers he instead found accurate so he endorsed them and used them for the content:

"Q: OK, how about this one: 720p or 1080p?

"A: ...You’d think that 1080p is obviously better than 720p. Trouble is, you won’t get a 1080p image unless you feed it a 1080p signal — and that’s hard to come by. There’s no such thing as a 1080p TV broadcast (cable, satellite, anything), and won’t be for years. Even most games, like Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3, generally send out 720p (or less).

"So the *only* way to get a 1080p picture on a 1080p set is to buy a high-def DVD player (Blu-ray or HD DVD). That’s the only way.

"[D.P. adds: Even then, you won’t see any difference between 720p and 1080p unless you sit closer than 10 feet from the TV and it’s bigger than 55 inches or so.

"And even then, you’re not getting any additional sharpness or detail. Instead, as CNET notes, you’re just gaining the ability to move closer without seeing individual pixels: “In other words, you can sit closer to a 1080p television and not notice any pixel structure, such as stair-stepping along diagonal lines, or the screen door effect (where you can actually see the space between the pixels).”]

"Q: But a 1080p set costs a lot more than an identical 720p set, doesn’t it?

"A: Yeah.

"[D.P. adds: At this point, he showed me two plasmas, same brand, same size, same model line, mounted one above the other: one 720p, the other 1080p. The fancier set cost $2,000 more — and the image quality was pixel-for-pixel identical.]"

end-of-pogue excerpt. so are we to complain that :apple:TV only does 720? I don't think so.

AidenShaw

Jan 31, 2008, 09:41 PM

Don't forget that DVDs are 480i anamorphic, where as Apple's HD will be 720p square pixels.

Even with the bit rate being lower than DVD, it will still contain many more pixels and will appear much crisper on your HDTV. DVDs will always look slightly blurry due to the fact that the image is stretched horizontally to make it widescreen.

Not all DVDs are anamorphic, and the aspect ratio varies from movie to movie (1.85 to 2.35 is the common range).

As far as pixels and crispness, a high quality upscaled crisp DVD image can preserve much of the crispness - since the signal processing logic in the upscaling circuitry can do edge detection and "invent" a straight line in the upscaled image. These upscalers aren't like QUicktime player, where you press Ctrl-2 and every pixel becomes four - they are high performance image processing engines with a lot of intelligence.

Starting with a fuzzy over-compressed (but larger) image like Apple TV, it's hard to create upscaled straight lines that are missing from the original.

"So the *only* way to get a 1080p picture on a 1080p set is to buy a high-def DVD player (Blu-ray or HD DVD)."

And I did buy a Blu-ray player. Three, in fact, if you count the Blu-rays in the computers. And I rent or buy Blu-ray movies and documentaries (some amazing BBC and National Geographic stuff is out there). And I watched the demos at Macworld Expo - and they looked worse than upscaled DVDs.

Anyway, enough for now - enjoy your Apple TVs.

crjeong

Jan 31, 2008, 10:56 PM

Not all DVDs are anamorphic, and the aspect ratio varies from movie to movie (1.85 to 2.35 is the common range).

Actually all widescreen movies on dvd are anamorphic. The image is always contained within 720x480 (NTSC) or 720x576 (PAL) pixels then stretched to 864x480 or 1024x576 for playback.

The aspect ratio has nothing to do with how widescreen movies are stored on the disc, they are usually just matted up the top and bottom. In other words, wasted pixels (as they just show black).

finiteyoda

Jan 31, 2008, 11:47 PM

Actually all widescreen movies on dvd are anamorphic. The image is always contained within 720x480 (NTSC) or 720x576 (PAL) pixels then stretched to 864x480 or 1024x576 for playback.

The aspect ratio has nothing to do with how widescreen movies are stored on the disc, they are usually just matted up the top and bottom. In other words, wasted pixels (as they just show black).

Not all widescreen movies on dvd are anamorphic. Many early releases were non-anamorphic (the encoded video was interpreted as 4:3, and the black bars were part of the video signal). There's also not a set output size, it depends on the dvd player's capabilities. A 1080p upscaling dvd player will scale a 720x480 anamorphic signal to 1920x1080, for instance. There will be no wasted pixels in the original dvd signal, unless the movie is not exactly 16:9.

deetsnai

Jan 31, 2008, 11:57 PM

Happy Apple TV owner (as of yesterday) and new MacRumors poster. Although I have been reading for almost a year.:D

Anyway, I have been worrying about the quality of the 720p HD rentals and have been looking all over the internet for some official sample or at least a review from someone at Macworld saying it looked great. I have had no luck but I have taken peace of mind from the following:

1) Apple TV supports 5Mbps 720p not 4Mbps (I don't know why people are throwing the number 4 around in this thread.)

2) Go watch 720p trailers on apple.com. I watched the new Chronicles of Narnia trailer and looked great. I then clicked "Show movie info". It said "Bitrate: 5.5Mbps" and "Resolution:1280x544" (It's clearly a 2.35:1 movie)

finiteyoda

Feb 1, 2008, 12:06 AM

As far as pixels and crispness, a high quality upscaled crisp DVD image can preserve much of the crispness - since the signal processing logic in the upscaling circuitry can do edge detection and "invent" a straight line in the upscaled image. These upscalers aren't like QUicktime player, where you press Ctrl-2 and every pixel becomes four - they are high performance image processing engines with a lot of intelligence.

Starting with a fuzzy over-compressed (but larger) image like Apple TV, it's hard to create upscaled straight lines that are missing from the original.

Why do you think DVD is inherently crisper than 720p rentals on Apple TV? Video scalers can apply the same techniques to Apple TV output, as a DVD player's output. At the same bitrate, H.264/AVC clearly wins over MPEG-2 (just look at the early reviews of Blu-Ray MPEG-2 release, compared to their HD-DVD counterparts using AVC). 720p rentals will be 4mbps, most DVD's run 3-7mpbs, that's not a whole lot more.

I've watched several movies extensively already, both the iTunes rental and the DVD version, upscaled to 720p from a DLP projector, and while the DVD versions are still better, its not by much of a margin. Most of the issues are around color compression, high motion artifacts, and noise reduction, but to a level that I'd say 90% of viewers aren't going to notice. Even for me, 70-80% of the movie is not distinguishable from a DVD. CGI movies (like the Simpsons), its practically impossible to tell the difference. (Btw, I should mention I'm using Quicktime Player to view the rental movies, and its upscaling capabilities are quite up to snuff.)

So, I don't think we'll really know how good/bad the 720p rentals will be until they're available. They won't be anywhere near blu-ray quality, but saying their worse than upscaled DVD's is pulling the trigger a bit early...

finiteyoda

Feb 1, 2008, 12:15 AM

:)

You know, that was totally unfair. Pre-digital I had a Sony PL A/V I loved, for years. I have a Sony center and two surrounds. (I had two Sony full-size fronts, but in small cabinets, and they were on the floor; I had to get them up off the floor and had no place to put them. So I went shopping for a couple stands. All the stands these days are made for the little micro-size surround-kit loudspeakers. To get top platforms big enough for the fronts, it was $100 for the pair of stands. The audio store where I went for the stands had a few discontinued $250 a pop Polks in cabinets the perfect height, on get-rid-of-them-now clearance for $40 apiece, cheaper than the freaking stands. Plus these Polks have a bit more presence than the Sonys; you know, not *louder*, I just think I get a little more "detail" listening to music, especially LPs -- movies, nyah, I can't tell, but for a lot of music, a bit better.)

The "blech" came from one analog Sony PLII my wife had, still have around here somewhere. Sounded fine, really, it was just that it was like a damn desert on available inputs. It wasn't marketed to people who were going to connect more than a VCR and a CD deck, which was perfectly my wife before I married her. But that thing hassled me, though there was nothing wrong with it one bit for its target market. My Blu-ray players are Sony. I'm cool with Sony, I just have this bizarre hangover resentment against that Sony PLII receiver and its input shortage. The "blech" was just a personal thing; Sony isn't junk.

I like my clearance-price Onkyo 5.1 -- God bless HDMI for knocking the price of models without HDMI pass-through down into the dirt. Any comparable Sony I'd like just as much.

You'd like this: I was in one of these consumer electronics chains, Best Buy or Circuit City, some place like that, struck up a conversation with the "audio expert". He had what he swore was a 100 watts/channel, not 100 watts aggregate, receiver -- I mean I asked for clarification on that, and he swore *per channel* and no tomfoolery on the specs. He didn't like it so much because it was "a little underpowered". I asked him how much he was paying in rent to live on the field in the Astrodome. I don't think he got it, though.

Speaking of Sid Harman, I gotta admit Bob Carver and his Sunfire rap drive me bonkers, too. Sure his gear *looks* nice. Sure, a machine may tell the difference, but a human being? I mean today we have guys with the knack -- no, not the band, people -- producing major-label records in freaking GarageBand, and then lying about it and *no one can even tell*. At the same time you gotta drop two grand on an A/V receiver, minimum, or you won't get "the full audio experience today's technology brings you." Uh, yeah.

I never understand why people worry about receivers so much, and forget one of the most important components in a home theater system: the speakers. I get more improvements/changes out of swapping speakers in my system than any other component. I swear that all these new HD digital audio formats are a scheme to wring more money out of unwitting consumers. The advantages offered by many of these formats don't really become interesting until you've sunk about 50-100k into your home theater IMO (and that's not including the video side).

Besides, whatever HDMI receiver you buy today, it'll probably be obsolete in 6 months when they announce HDMI 1.3c or 1.4 or whatever... :rolleyes:

AidenShaw

Feb 1, 2008, 12:55 AM

Why do you think DVD is inherently crisper than 720p rentals on Apple TV?

...because I've watched the 720p Apple TV rentals. Fuzzy, with noticeable motion artifacts.

Video scalers can apply the same techniques to Apple TV output, as a DVD player's output.

You say "scalers", when in fact the upscaling engines are complex signal processors. Any fuzziness in the source limits the ability of the scaler to enhance the output. A crisp 720x480 input can scale to 1920x1080 better than a fuzzy 1280x720 source.

So, I don't think we'll really know how good/bad the 720p rentals will be until they're available. They won't be anywhere near blu-ray quality, but saying their worse than upscaled DVD's is pulling the trigger a bit early...

If you haven't had an upscaling Blu-ray player and a 46" 1080p LCD for a year or so, and you didn't go to Macworld - a reasonable position.

Me - yes, yes and yes. And IMO the Apple TV is definitely "Fake HD" compared to what is available.

finiteyoda

Feb 1, 2008, 04:21 AM

...because I've watched the 720p Apple TV rentals. Fuzzy, with noticeable motion artifacts.

How and where did you watch the 720p rentals? At MacWorld? I also see blu-ray setups at Best Buy or Circuit City all the time that look like total crap, doesn't prove a thing. And just because you see fuzzy video, doesn't mean everyone else will have the same objections. This service is being marketed to consumers, not videophiles (who will be using HD players anyway), so it might be good no to try to scare everybody before 720p rentals have even been released.

You say "scalers", when in fact the upscaling engines are complex signal processors. Any fuzziness in the source limits the ability of the scaler to enhance the output. A crisp 720x480 input can scale to 1920x1080 better than a fuzzy 1280x720 source.

<rant>I call them scalers, because that's what most video-people call them still. Hang out on AVS Forum for a bit, you'd learn this, and a lot more... Anyway, there's no measure of "fuzziness" in video. There's a notion of "lines of resolution" which is a common measure of detail (not to be confused with sharpness, that's something else). A scaler can't increase detail (and a good one won't decrease it either). What a scaler can do, however, is reduce aliasing and pixelation effects. Certain edge reconstruction algorithms, like Lanczos convolution kernels, have this effect, of reducing stairstepping artifacts, but they aren't increasing detail, not one bit. Really, what your claim is, is that the detail in a 4mbps h264-encoded 720p signal, is lower than in a DVD. It really has nothing to do with the scaler, or "fuzziness". Compression artifacts may lower detail, and 4mbps h264 will have more compression artifacts than 8mbps MPEG-2, for sure, but then the 720p video is starting with 720 lines of resolution, whereas the DVD started with 480. So, whether your claim is actually true or not, is unlikely, but also not provable until the rentals are available for people to watch and decide themselves. The compression artifacts might be more noticeable on the 720p than the DVD, because the bitrate is so low, and that might be a turn-off for some people, but it's a pretty good bet that the detail level will actually be higher on the 720p. Time will tell.</rant>

If you haven't had an upscaling Blu-ray player and a 46" 1080p LCD for a year or so, and you didn't go to Macworld - a reasonable position.

Me - yes, yes and yes. And IMO the Apple TV is definitely "Fake HD" compared to what is available.

You're entitled to your opinion, just don't parade it around as fact or universal for the rest of us. I don't need an upscaling blu-ray player or to have been at MacWorld. All I (or anybody) needs to do is wait for 720p rentals to become available, and for people to compare them side-by-side with DVD on the same type of setup. You haven't done this yet. You could at least start with maybe comparing 480p rentals and DVD, I don't know, take some screenshots or something showing us the horrible fuzziness of "Fake HD". Btw, just because 720p or 1080p is compressed doesn't mean it's "fake HD", what the heck do you think Blu-Ray is, uncompressed??