Aperture 2 Coming, Maybe Next Week?

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Speculation regarding Apple's photo applications hit an all-time high this past week when Sr. Product Line Manager for Photo Applications Joe Schorr posted in Apple's Discussion forums (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1293740&tstart=0) the following:

As I'm sure many of you know, it's not Apple's policy to provide a public "ETA" on future releases, so I can't post anything like a timetable for when support for the newest RAW camera formats will become available.

But I can tell you this. We at Apple are ACUTELY aware of the pressing need to get support for the newest round of camera into your hands as soon as possible. This is a top priority. We have members of our own team using these cameras, so you can imagine how interested we are in seeing this support integrated into the Mac OS and our photo applications!

We fully intent to give our customers what they need in this regard.

While we hesitate to draw too many conclusions solely from that post alone, independent reports from some tipsters are indicating that Aperture 2 may indeed be drawing near. Indeed, one uncorroborated tip has gone so far as to indicate that the update may come next week. However, our confidence currently is thin on the matter, and we post the above "intel" to page 2 for interest only.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/02/02/aperture-2-coming-maybe-next-week/)

[Nermal]

I don't use Aperture or even own a camera, but doesn't the camera support come from the OS rather than Aperture itself? I suspect that this is confirmation of 10.5.2 rather than an Aperture update.

[ducky]

I don't use Aperture or even own a camera, but doesn't the camera support come from the OS rather than Aperture itself? I suspect that this is confirmation of 10.5.2 rather than an Aperture update.

Agreed. PMA 2008 is finishing up today, and it'd be madness for Apple to release an Aperture update right after the biggest photography trade show of the year.

[joseph2166]

Agreed. PMA 2008 is finishing up today, and it'd be madness for Apple to release an Aperture update right after the biggest photography trade show of the year.

Yeh - although it's poss that a small aperture update could come out anytime. Also it might make sense to release the MacBook Pros alongside a pro-app update - although again releasing Aperture 2 AFTER a large tradeshow would seem mad.

[tadunne]

Yeh - although it's poss that a small aperture update could come out anytime. Also it might make sense to release the MacBook Pros alongside a pro-app update - although again releasing Aperture 2 AFTER a large tradeshow would seem mad.

Yep the RAW support is an operating system thing, so this means 10.5.2 which should have come by now :(

[GroundLoop]

...although again releasing Aperture 2 AFTER a large tradeshow would seem mad.

I sincerely hope that you are correct. The fact that Aperture wasn't updated at PMA is one of the reasons I finally ordered the software. It'll be arriving at my doorstep on Tuesday.

Hickman

[joseph2166]

I sincerely hope that you are correct. The fact that Aperture wasn't updated at PMA is one of the reasons I finally ordered the software. It'll be arriving at my doorstep on Tuesday.

Hickman

Either that or hope that it gets updated REALLY soon so you can still send it back! Anyway the current software is still very good imho - i'd be interested in how they'd improve it enough for a 2.0 release - although they'll find a way i'm sure!

[RoDe]

Didn't they introduce the MBP 17" at the PMA in 2006/7? Alongside the Aperture 1.5 update?

I might be mistaken here.

If this were the case maybe Apple is trying to get them to be introduced at the same time. But probably one of the two isn't ready!?

Just a thought.

[RoDe]

I'm really looking forward to the Aperture 2 update, can't wait to see what Apple has done to make it a better program, compared to the current version and to Adobe's lightroom

[GroundLoop]

Either that or hope that it gets updated REALLY soon so you can still send it back! Anyway the current software is still very good imho - i'd be interested in how they'd improve it enough for a 2.0 release - although they'll find a way i'm sure!

My working assumption though is that the 2.0 update will arrive around Photokina in September. My new MP is not arriving until late february, so if there is an update in the near-term, let it be before then. Then I could still return the unopened package.

Hickman

[juanm]

How much can we expect the upgrade to cost on a $300 software? Will the teacher discount work on such an upgrade?

[melchior]

I don't use Aperture or even own a camera, but doesn't the camera support come from the OS rather than Aperture itself? I suspect that this is confirmation of 10.5.2 rather than an Aperture update.

Yep the RAW support is an operating system thing, so this means 10.5.2 which should have come by now :(

First of all, there is not RAW support for these cameras in 10.5.2, seems strange doesn't it? Moving beyond that idle speculation and following actual logic we have this...

There was some hope that having RAW updates with the OS had been identified as a stumbling block to PRO piece of software and that 2.0 would be released which eliminated this dependence on software updates. At this point, with PMA over, this is definitely not the case. There could be a minor point update to Aperture, but definitely not the major revision we in the photographic community were hankering for.

Both Aperture 1.0 in 2005 and 1.5 in 2006 have been laid out at photographic trade shows, but photokina isn't until september and I don't know of anything else going on between now and then.

An update is obviously inevitable, but I doubt it would be a major one, otherwise they would announce it at PMA and ship it in a month or so if necessary. Very disappointing indeed, along with the MBP situation...

[joseph2166]

An update is obviously inevitable, but I doubt it would be a major one, otherwise they would announce it at PMA and ship it in a month or so if necessary. Very disappointing indeed, along with the MBP situation...

Yeh agree - would have made sense (even if they were not coming for another month or so) for them (both an aperture and/or RAW update, plus the mbpros) to have announced them this/last week.

[longofest]

If the update doesn't come soon, then I agree that its most likely coming at Photokina.

Yes, the RAW updates are posted to the OS itself, but 10.5.2 does not contain any updates for RAW.

[bmat]

It's so very odd what Apple's doing here. The Apple chatter on their discussions creates the expectation that there will be a real update to aperture, but it wouldn't make sense to do it after PMA. On the other hand, waiting until September to update RAW support for the new Nikons would be beyond the suicide that Apple has already engaged in with this product. I think no matter what they do, current aperture users are going to be dissatisfied with whatever update there is.

[guzhogi]

Yes, the RAW updates are posted to the OS itself, but 10.5.2 does not contain any updates for RAW.

Maybe RAW updates are in the 10.5.2 update, but no one said anything. I don't know. I haven't seen a pre-release version so I wouldn't know.

I'll admit, I'm not a photographer so I don't know much (read: anything) about these trade shows, but when is CES? Maybe Apple will release it then?

[Kaptajn Haddock]

I really hope thats true. Aperture 1.5 is really great, but still lacks a lot of features found in latest iPhoto (books etc.) and is still to heavy on the system. Bring it on!!!

[Roy Hobbs]

Maybe RAW updates are in the 10.5.2 update, but no one said anything. I don't know. I haven't seen a pre-release version so I wouldn't know.

I'll admit, I'm not a photographer so I don't know much (read: anything) about these trade shows, but when is CES? Maybe Apple will release it then?

CES, was in early January so if Aperture 2.0 is coming "soon" it won't be at next years CES. I don't even think Apple attends CES. Macworld as CES are usually very close if not over laping each other

[juanm]

Now, let's dream:
Maybe they're about to do something I've always wanted: a dedicated ExpressCard 34 with hardware support of RAW, which would make working with RAW a breeze.

It's so very odd what Apple's doing here. The Apple chatter on their discussions creates the expectation that there will be a real update to aperture, but it wouldn't make sense to do it after PMA. On the other hand, waiting until September to update RAW support for the new Nikons would be beyond the suicide that Apple has already engaged in with this product. I think no matter what they do, current aperture users are going to be dissatisfied with whatever update there is.

There could still be hope. Aperture is very well known as a hardware (Mac Pro and MacBook Pro) seller.
The Mac Pro was just updated. Both the MacBook Pro AND Aperture are craving an update. If Aperture 2.0 didn't come with the Mac Pro, it should be announced in the next few weeks with a new MacBook Pro.

[juanm]

I really hope thats true. Aperture 1.5 is really great, but still lacks a lot of features found in latest iPhoto (books etc.) and is still to heavy on the system. Bring it on!!!

It does have books! Although I agree it's too heavy on the system, but I doubt this is going to change in a positive way.

[pyramid6]

According to some on the internet, 10.5.2 does have support for D3/D300. If it does not have D3/D300 support, they might as well scrap Aperture. No one will uses it for new cameras anymore. It's great software, but the lack of camera support is a problem. The lack of communication is a bigger problem.

P6

[twoodcc]

well hopefully it will be here soon, along with 10.5.2

[Kaptajn Haddock]

It does have books! Although I agree it's too heavy on the system, but I doubt this is going to change in a positive way.

I meant the new books that came with iLife 08, only available to iPhoto users.

[CalfCanuck]

Both Aperture 1.0 in 2005 and 1.5 in 2006 have been laid out at photographic trade shows, but photokina isn't until september and I don't know of anything else going on between now and then.

An update is obviously inevitable, but I doubt it would be a major one, otherwise they would announce it at PMA and ship it in a month or so if necessary. Very disappointing indeed, along with the MBP situation...
Yes, you are right that not announcing at PMA (so far!) is a real problem. As a pro user who bought into Aperture 1.0 back in 2005, I've watched (and participated) in the ongoing discussions of AP and it's development. But what is different now is the huge frustration level (seen on the Aperture Discussion threads at Apple Support.)

Though they are deleting the threads as fast as they can, they have a real crisis (hence the unusual post by Joe, the manager in charge of the application) with long time users leaving, and leaving full of ill-will towards Apple. Myself, I have been hard pressed to recommend the application to anyone else for a while now. Some great things, but some poor implementations as well. I just got the new MP Pro with 10 GB RAM and 2.3 TB of HD's and it runs better, but to expect every users to have to have that kind of setup for decent performance is just crazy. And the keyword searches are just a joke!

The biggest issue for Aperture, even unlike other pro applications like FCP or Photoshop, is that you are not only manipulating digital files for current use - a large amount of your time is spent keywording and sorting for FUTURE use, maybe 2-3 years down the road. So users invest 100's of hours of current time in the hope that this will make you more productive down the road. But once you start doubting the future of the software (due to limited upgrades, non-supported RAW formats, etc) the house of cards falls quickly. Since you can't easily export that metadata (and all those hours you've invested) to other programs, you start getting nervous about "wasting" the hours. I find myself doing MUCH less keywording than I should, as a hedge against moving to another application.

I do have some theories about what Apple is waiting for.

- there may be something in the 10.5.2 update that the new Aperture team needs to really run Aperture 2.0.

- Apple may wait until "Update Tuesday", the last day of PMA and after the press has finished covering the new Nikons, Canons, etc to steal the headlines and announce something (Aperture 2 with a 10.5.2 upgrade).

- Maybe Apple wanted to release something, but the software is still too buggy. So better to skip all the photo shows, get something stable to show, and then roll it out later (at a non-photo even). If nothing comes at PMA, APple can't wait until Sept without losing a lot of early adopters.

[kabunaru]

So, is this a sign that Apple might release Mac OS 10.5.2 this coming week?

[Kaptajn Haddock]

No matter what, it has taken to long for Apple to update Aperture. As many others state, I'm starting to lose confidence in the future of Aperture when it is soon to be 3 years since version 1.0.
1.0 was so extremely buggy, that I'm still having a hard time figuring out what the hell Apple were thinking. Getting into a new market for pro photographers and losing their confidence with the first release is plain suicide, and maybe thats why Apple has forgotten Aperture, because sales are too low.

[CalfCanuck]

No matter what, it has taken to long for Apple to update Aperture. As many others state, I'm starting to lose confidence in the future of Aperture when it is soon to be 3 years since version 1.0.
1.0 was so extremely buggy, that I'm still having a hard time figuring out what the hell Apple were thinking. Getting into a new market for pro photographers and losing their confidence with the first release is plain suicide, and maybe thats why Apple has forgotten Aperture, because sales are too low.
Yes, Apple needs to address the lack of confidence they have now created in using Aperture. I understand that Pro apps need a few iterations to grow, and I bought Aperture 1.0 with the belief it would follow a similar development path as Final Cut Pro. FCP had initial potential in 1.0, but lots of issues for pros. Each new version slowly addressed those, until it became one of the industry standards for smaller productions.

FCP was introduced in 1999, and by 2001 it was on version 3. Aperture is now at 2.25 years and still stuck in v1!

FCP release history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Cut_Studio

[synth3tik]

I don't use Aperture or even own a camera, but doesn't the camera support come from the OS rather than Aperture itself? I suspect that this is confirmation of 10.5.2 rather than an Aperture update.

Totally agreed. I use Aperture 1.5. I really like it however a new version that would be more intuitive would be great. Camera support however is from the OS. I seem to recall something similar to this at the start of the 10.5.2 update talk.

[Grimace]

I'm not sure we'll see anything along the lines of Aperture 2.0. All Apple needs to do is add RAW support for the new PMA cameras. The fact that a 2.0 update wasn't introduced at PMA makes me think that this will be Aperture 1.5.x.

[chubad]

I really hope this rumor is true. Sadly Aperture is dying a not so slow death due to Apples lack of updates. It has potential to be great, but sadly does not live up to any where near it's potential. The hardware demands on the system are just plain silly. I have a G-5 Quad with 8 gigs of RAM and the mid-level Ge-Force 7800GT. I have a 10k raptor boot drive as well. From the start Aperture just plain struggled on this system. For those of you who say "but that's an old system" , go into an Apple retail store. Launch Aperture on an 8 core Intel Mac Pro. Select an image and start editing in full screen mode. You will STILL get lags and spinning beach balls. I use Final Cut Studio 2 as well and editing Video is more responsive than Aperture! WTF?!
Apples use and promotion of Core Image falls flat when used on multiple files. Aperture never modifies the originals nor does it make a copy. It applies the Image settings to each file and renders them on output. So when you are scrolling through thousands of images the computer is frantically reading settings and displaying the thumbnails. The result is simply scrolling through images is a slow jerky process that taxes the graphic card until the fans kick in and start blasting.
I had high hopes for Aperture to follow in the footsteps of Final Cut and become a solid app that pros could count on.
My only hope is that they have been using this time to completely overhaul Aperture. Sorry but a small point release just wont cut it. It needs major surgery or it will be on life support real soon. Adobe Lightroom is FAR faster and camera updates are constantly being released. I am seriously thinking of switching but I have had faith that Apple would step up to the plate and get Aperture up to the level it should be. They better do it soon or Adobe will be so far entrenched that Aperture simply wont matter.

[Roller]

If I were a pro, I'd only use Aperture if I'd already committed a great deal of work to it. Otherwise, why use an app that clearly doesn't have many resources behind it and derives RAW support for new cameras from infrequent OS updates?

I'm not a pro, but I'm seriously considering dropping Aperture in favor of Lightroom. I like Aperture's feature set and I'm used to its workflow, but I can't shoot RAW and use my Nikon D300 with it. Speed is another issue - Aperture doesn't feel much faster on my dual 3 GHz Mac Pro than it does on my two-year-old Core Duo iMac.

[0tim0]

It's been 15 months since Aperture has had a major update. The more I think about it, it probably means one of two things:

1) Aperture is a low priority for Apple and they've pulled their resources off to work on something else (i.e. iPhoto for the iPhone :) ) We'll get a 1.5.x release (or maybe a 1.6 release) and camera support and that will mostly be that.

2) They've realized that they must improve performance and so they've taken a lot of time and effort to rework a lot of the internals. They want to build a solid foundation for the product because they expect the market for these products to grow. Since they had quality issues with 1.0 of Aperture they are really careful about releasing it before it is ready (maybe they planned to show it at PMA and decided to hold off to tighten it down even more). But soon enough they'll give us 2.0 which will be much more performant (with some cool new features, I'm sure) and they will have a solid foundation for future releases (hopefully quelling the fears of the current user base).

Obviously I hope the answer is #2. And if you take the long view of the market, that would be the most prudent approach (releasing a 2.0 that has new features, but suffers from the same performance problems, etc as the 1.5 would probably be worse than waiting). On the other hand, after seeing Leopard delayed for the iPhone -- and with some serious quality issues -- I wouldn't be too surprised if the answer is #1.

--t

[John Purple]

I'm not a pro, but I'm seriously considering dropping Aperture in favor of Lightroom. I like Aperture's feature set and I'm used to its workflow, but I can't shoot RAW and use my Nikon D300 with it. Speed is another issue - Aperture doesn't feel much faster on my dual 3 GHz Mac Pro than it does on my two-year-old Core Duo iMac.

Does anyone know whether Adobe is working on an application to switch from Aperture to LightRoom?

[EagerDragon]

Agreed. PMA 2008 is finishing up today, and it'd be madness for Apple to release an Aperture update right after the biggest photography trade show of the year.

A little odd for Apple not releasing Aperture V2 at PMA.
I guess not yet ready. Too bad I was the perfect time as most photographers were tuned to PMA.

[Kaptajn Haddock]

Wow!!!

http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=6478954#6478954

[juanm]

And in human years, how much is Apple's "soon"?
I'm specially curious about the exciting other features...

Good news nonetheless...

[pyramid6]

Wow!!!

http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=6478954#6478954

Despite his assurances, I'm waiting for Lightroom 2. Had I already not spent the money, I would get Lightroom. What am I going to do for the next camera that comes out? Wait over three months for them to just say something.

Apples arrogance astounds me.

P6

[aliquis-]

I'm really looking forward to the Aperture 2 update, can't wait to see what Apple has done to make it a better program, compared to the current version and to Adobe's lightroomI've tested both a little and I prefer Apertures one screen approach instead of jumping back and forward, using the adjustments are more or less the same, I think the way to change shadow and highlighting levels and such are a little bit better in Lightroom eventually and it's faster (probably mostly because Apple is retarded and put 128MB vram in my mbp.)

In any case, one feature I really want is to be able to rescan a folder for new images since I would like to sort my images in normal folders instead so it will get easier to get them out again so to speak.
Slimmer vram usage would be nice aswell considering the retarded specs of their machines but I can't see that happen or why it should. Imho they should use lots of vram where benefical and equip the machines with more instead.

I really hope thats true. Aperture 1.5 is really great, but still lacks a lot of features found in latest iPhoto (books etc.) and is still to heavy on the system. Bring it on!!!That is one feature I want aswell, beeing able to use the same library, I want my iPhoto to show my aperture images but with the fixed version, I'm not sure how that would happen without saving the modified images but anyway ;D.
iPhoto seems better for viewing images so it suck that it's worse for editing ;D

Since you can't easily export that metadata (and all those hours you've invested) to other programs, you start getting nervous about "wasting" the hours. I find myself doing MUCH less keywording than I should, as a hedge against moving to another application.Why can't the be stored in some more standard format/way so that iPhoto and Lightroom would understand the same thing?
Should one use lightroom instead because it's "safer"?

[bmcgrath]

I really hope this rumor is true. Sadly Aperture is dying a not so slow death due to Apples lack of updates. It has potential to be great, but sadly does not live up to any where near it's potential. The hardware demands on the system are just plain silly. I have a G-5 Quad with 8 gigs of RAM and the mid-level Ge-Force 7800GT. I have a 10k raptor boot drive as well. From the start Aperture just plain struggled on this system. For those of you who say "but that's an old system" , go into an Apple retail store. Launch Aperture on an 8 core Intel Mac Pro. Select an image and start editing in full screen mode. You will STILL get lags and spinning beach balls. I use Final Cut Studio 2 as well and editing Video is more responsive than Aperture! WTF?!
Apples use and promotion of Core Image falls flat when used on multiple files. Aperture never modifies the originals nor does it make a copy. It applies the Image settings to each file and renders them on output. So when you are scrolling through thousands of images the computer is frantically reading settings and displaying the thumbnails. The result is simply scrolling through images is a slow jerky process that taxes the graphic card until the fans kick in and start blasting.
I had high hopes for Aperture to follow in the footsteps of Final Cut and become a solid app that pros could count on.
My only hope is that they have been using this time to completely overhaul Aperture. Sorry but a small point release just wont cut it. It needs major surgery or it will be on life support real soon. Adobe Lightroom is FAR faster and camera updates are constantly being released. I am seriously thinking of switching but I have had faith that Apple would step up to the plate and get Aperture up to the level it should be. They better do it soon or Adobe will be so far entrenched that Aperture simply wont matter.


You should try a 2.0ghz Core Duo Macbook Pro with 2gig of ram.
They really do need to get their act together on making the app more speedy on their hardware. I also noticed since I upgraded to Leopard that Aperture tends to crash a bit now. Never ever had that problem with Tiger!

[Shaktai]

I do have some theories about what Apple is waiting for.

- there may be something in the 10.5.2 update that the new Aperture team needs to really run Aperture 2.0.

- Apple may wait until "Update Tuesday", the last day of PMA and after the press has finished covering the new Nikons, Canons, etc to steal the headlines and announce something (Aperture 2 with a 10.5.2 upgrade).

- Maybe Apple wanted to release something, but the software is still too buggy. So better to skip all the photo shows, get something stable to show, and then roll it out later (at a non-photo even). If nothing comes at PMA, APple can't wait until Sept without losing a lot of early adopters.

I think you are on to something. A few key points. PMA is mostly a hardware show, so there is no big surprise if they chose not to release it there. If RAW updates are not included in 10.5.2, which would be a surprise to me, it is possible that in order to provide more timely RAW updates, which is needed, that 10.5.2 may incorporate code that allows them to seperate RAW updates from the system updates. May still be system based but a modular function, so that RAW updates can be released at any time when ready. This would make more sense while holding to their current system-wide (all apps) plan.

If so, then 10.5.2 would be required before a new Aperture update could be released. It is also possible that they simply chose not to include RAW data profiles in the beta releases for testing, if they are not needed for that purpose.

Of course this is all speculation. Rumors about a near term release are rampant, and I suspect we might know something within the next two weeks. Then again we might not hear anything which would not benefit Apple. Aperture 2.0 is likely to be a "major overhaul" of the original Aperture codebase. Not necessarily a revamp of how it works but specifically of the code behind it to provide better performance and smaller size. Hopefully it will also include some "useful" new features.

[micxmac]

Apple obviously has a big problem on it's hands with this product. It has two clear structural design flaws that it's competitor does not. Horribly sluggish processing speed and an inability to upgrade the raw import on a timely basis for important new cameras that enter the marketplace. (Nikon announced the cameras last August).

Well, in my case, Aperture would have an $8,000 computer hardware premium plus I could still not enjoy my 3 month old D300?

The Lightroom update came out the same week as the camera and it runs seamlessly with no beach balls on my G5 1.6 and my MBP 1.83.

[hayesk]

If I were a pro, I'd only use Aperture if I'd already committed a great deal of work to it. Otherwise, why use an app that clearly doesn't have many resources behind it and derives RAW support for new cameras from infrequent OS updates?

Huh? Apple's OS updates are more frequent than most app updates, including Aperture.

That's an arbitrary reason not to use a piece of software.

[yeroen]

Huh? Apple's OS updates are more frequent than most app updates, including Aperture.

That's an arbitrary reason not to use a piece of software.

Good point.

I think many people misunderstand and overestimate the implications of bundling RAW support into 'the OS' rather than within the application. All this involves is updating a dynamic library somewhere, like the RawCamera bundle in CoreServices. It does not mean a recompile of the Mac OS X kernel, which would be troubling indeed, but fortunately that isn't the case.

At most, the difference in the two approaches (apart from the superficial issue of which minor revision number you're incrementing, Leopard's or Aperture's?) boils down to an 'OS' RawCamera bundle update requiring more regression tests with applications that use that service, like iPhoto and Preview.

Furthermore, implementing RAW support in the CoreImage 'system' layer should have no significant effect with respect to the frequency of updates to that support.

[manu chao]

At most, the difference in the two approaches (apart from the superficial issue of which minor revision number you're incrementing, Leopard's or Aperture's?) boils down to an 'OS' RawCamera bundle update requiring more regression tests with applications that use that service, like iPhoto and Preview.


I think you've nailed it. Being able to integrate the raw decoding into an OS has advantages in terms of optimisations and synergies between apps but makes updating it a bit more cumbersome.

Microsoft does not suffer from this problem as it is in no competitive position regarding raw decoding (well maybe with Apple) and therefore does not really have to care about it.