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miniConvert
Feb 4, 2008, 03:04 AM
Hi,

I run OS X Server (Tiger) and, eventually, I'm going to need to upgrade to Leopard.

Has anybody done this yet? If so, how did you go about it?

I don't know what options you're given to do the upgrade - is it literally Upgrade, Archive and Install and Erase and Install like normal?

If so, I'm assuming Upgrade is suicide, lol, but I'd need to ensure that my LDAP directory carries over correctly and continues to work with all the user home areas and shared areas that are stored on a separate disk in the Mac Pro.

Basically I need major reassurance. OS X Server (Tiger) 'just works' at the moment, and I'd need to be 100% sure about the upgrade path before attempting it. Does the upgrade come with xx days of Apple telephone support? It rather annoyed me when I bought my Mac Pro with OS X Server (Tiger) that, despite having Applecare, my OS support was only for a matter of days and that outside of that period it would cost a squillion pounds to buy more.



gr8tfly
Feb 4, 2008, 03:32 AM
I'm about to go from Jaguar > Tiger. I'm sure it's a lower effort going from Tiger > Leopard, but I'm very interesting in seeing what the possible pitfalls might be.

My Jaguar services are pretty minimal, so to start, I only need to get DNS, Mail, and Apache. But, I had to do some manual editing of http.conf and httpd_macosxserver.conf to get virtual domains working properly. It's also my router, so again had to do some ipfw configuration for port forwarding. That stuff has probably been integrated long before Tiger server (in Panther), but it's those type of configuration issues I'm looking out for when upgrading.

miniConvert
Feb 4, 2008, 03:54 AM
I guess I'm fortunate in that all mine really does is manage user accounts and file storage using LDAP.

Ah, it does also act as the CVS server... it'd be good if that carried over to the new installation also. Mhmm.

zed2
Feb 4, 2008, 08:37 AM
Well I upgraded Tiger to Leopard... and now:

- web server doesn't work
- Software Update doesn't work
- FTP server is spotty

But other than that it worked fine :P Oh and Apple Tech support are of no help!

A clean install on another server worked just fine.. my advise... if you can do a clean install then do it.

--Zed

bigandy
Feb 4, 2008, 09:56 AM
I've got to head down to Engerland at the end of the month to do an upgrade to Leopard on a bunch of G5 Xserves which are currently all running 10.3.9....

Apart from the fun that's going to be ( :rolleyes: ), I've started to realise, via Remote Desktop, that they're all so badly in need of a complete clean up, that I'm probably going to have to rebuild them from scratch.

So I've come up with a few external Firewire drives, and I'm going to install a base Leopard install on each, then configure them over a weekend while the office is closed, meaning I can make changes and fiddle about until the cows come home - all without stuffing anything up permanently.

Once it's all working properly, I can just CCC (http://www.bombich.com/software/ccc.html) the images on to the primary internal disks.

I think the best way to do it is always CCC it off to a second disk, upgrade there, and test the installation. Once it's working, drop it back on to the main drive. ;)

Nugget
Feb 4, 2008, 03:10 PM
I upgraded mine from Tiger to Leopard and it was a total disaster. The upgrade from Apache 1.3 to 2.mumble didn't work and the web services (wiki, mailing list web interface, etc) never worked right. I ended up having to wipe the box and do a fresh Leopard install before things were proper and functioning.

The impression I'm left with is that unless you're using your server in "Simple" mode, an upgrade is going to cause you grief.

xparaparafreakx
Feb 4, 2008, 03:17 PM
Its best to just do a reinstall then an upgrade.

I plan to do 10.5 but I will wait then the school year is over and then do it. Im going to have to add new students to the list anyway.

Random Chaos
Feb 4, 2008, 11:54 PM
Also, Tiger LDAP servers cannot talk to Leopard LDAP servers. So the only way you can import LDAP data is export/import if you are changing physical machines.

Seems messed up to me...

miniConvert
Feb 5, 2008, 03:37 AM
I guess it might be a good time for me to upgrade the stock primary drive that my Mac Pro runs on... I can see me getting a new drive, putting Leopard Server on it, and then importing the Open Directory stuff from backups and copying over my files. Hell, that'll be a weekends work for sure... but at least if I can't get Leopard sorted I can put the Tiger drive back in.

Hmph. In any case, I think it might be a good idea if I waited a bit longer... at least until after the next OS update.

Thanks for all of your stories, the more the merrier.

macnrg
Feb 5, 2008, 07:46 AM
Leopard Server from Tiger Server upgrades are AWFUL!!! iCal Server especially is virtually unuseable, and Open Directory has too many issues. Also, there is a MAJOR AFP connection bug.

Leopard Server 10.5.1 out of box seems OK, although iCal Server is hosed on one of our clients, even out of box!

Wait for 10.5.2!

x19
Feb 5, 2008, 08:10 AM
We have a couple of services running on 10.5.1, but they certainly have their bugs. I recommend waiting if you can for 10.5.2 which shouldn't be too far away. Either way, do not upgrade....clean install.

artinstructor
Feb 5, 2008, 10:01 AM
Hi,

New to this. I'm a graphic design teacher and have to do most of my own IT. So this has been a pain in the butt! I upgraded from Tiger. Now I'm having the unknown error from Appletalk. It says -5019 error. Even after a clean install!

I have worked with Apple on the phone and paid an Apple Tech to come in. Neither fixed the problem.

So I think it would be easier to downgrade back to Tiger and wait for the 10.5.2 upgrade or this common Appletalk problem to be fixed.

Am I nuts? Should I downgrade? I currently have users with Tiger and Leopard OS. I want them all to run Leopard.

Will that work - Leopard OS users with Tiger Server?

Thanks for any input! :)

crackpip
Feb 5, 2008, 10:06 AM
I second the replies for a clean install. My OD database was messed up, several of the services didn't work right or at all (wiki, SU, iCal, Web, etc). I dumped it and went back to Tiger until I had the time to do a clean install.

Everything basically works now, but I have been bitten by some weird bugs with the clean install, like AFP not authenticating properly, thus network accounts didn't work. I fixed it by archiving my OD database, then switching to a stand-alone server. Then I switched back to an OD master and restored the database. Seemed to fix my Kerberos and AFP issues. It definitely doesn't like it when you change IP addresses. I guess the devs should spend some more time with the `changeip` command.

I can't imagine actually using this in a production environment. I use it on my home network to help keep my machines in sync and to screw around with the different features. Hopefully 10.5.2 will make many of the problems go away, though I'm not optimistic.

crackpip

miniConvert
Feb 5, 2008, 06:03 PM
Ok, yeah, really grateful for all of these comments. I'll definitely delay upgrading for the time being, and make sure I have both time and redundancy when the time does come along (after some more OS updates!). I'll also be sure to go down the clean install route.

I think Apple should have delayed the release of Leopard Server for 6 months or so after the desktop OS release and taken the time to get it right. If I'd have upgraded before now and ran into all of these issues I'd have been livid!

KGoetz
Feb 6, 2008, 10:06 AM
Upgrading MacOS server is a very hazardous undertaking.

In general, I think that upgrading from MacOS 10.4 to 10.5 is a serious problem. For commercial MacOS client boxes, doing the "archive and install" is pretty clearly the way to go.

Doing the default upgrade leaves MacOS with a lot of bad stuff.

It has been explained elsewhere that upgraded MacOS systems (both server and client variants of the OS) leave one with stale man pages. This problem can be corrected simply by deleting the old pages which allows the new (10.5) pages to be used.

There are more serious issues.

After I upgraded a number of Intel Xserves (upgrading from 10.4.10 to 10.5.0), I found that their lights off management (LOM) seemed broken in several ways. I noticed that the Server Monitor app was also broken. Investigation (both on my own and with Apple's tech support) revealed that the problem stemmed from an old kernel extension (kext). The problem could be corrected by doing a clean 10.5 server install (and then a full system reconfiguration). For MacOS server, there is NO "archive and install" option. The problem could also be corrected by moving the correct kext package (AppleBMC.kext) from a clean install to the troublesome upgraded box(es).

But here is something I think is deeply disturbing.
My upgraded boxes don't just have the one old kext.
They have have many many old kext's!

If you go to the extensions folder on upgraded and freshly installed MacOS Server systems, there are tons of differences. On my upgraded system, all (at least many many) of the kernel extensions are old whereas the same extensions have 2007 dates in the fresh installation. Since kernel extensions are essential low-level pieces of the OS, one has to imagine that they're important and that using old versions is bad and maybe dangerous.

For example, the extension autofs.kext exists in both trees. On the upgraded tree, its date is 10/29/06, its size is 166,989B and its version is 1.0.0d1. On the fresh install, its date is 10/9/07, its size is 166,525B and its version is 2.0.0.

As another example, there is an extension named AppleI2S.kext. On the upgraded tree, its date is 10/29/06 and its version is 1.0.0. On the fresh install, its date is 10/9/07 with a version of 1.0.1.

These are just two of many examples.

In many cases, the kexts seem to be the same (e.g. they have the same size and version numbers) even when the dates are different. In many many cases though, the files are different.

As a solution to my LOM issue, Apple's advice was to do a clean install. Of course this is something of an undertaking on a large set of Xserves.

As more general advice though, doing a clean install of 10.5 seems like the only way to go!

This seems more than a little worrisome and suggests very serious issues with Leopard upgrades!

My $.02,

K

alarcon
Feb 8, 2008, 01:41 PM
Leopard Server from Tiger Server upgrades are AWFUL!!! iCal Server especially is virtually unuseable, and Open Directory has too many issues. Also, there is a MAJOR AFP connection bug.

Leopard Server 10.5.1 out of box seems OK, although iCal Server is hosed on one of our clients, even out of box!

Wait for 10.5.2!

I had identical issues (minus iCal 'cuz not using it). Luckily i got free AppleCare support and was on the phone for days...really, 24hrs+. AFP still is giving me problems...I have to reboot about every other day and it's getting annoying!

Anybody know when 10.5.2 is coming out and if it is going to fix the AFP issues...along with all the other ones?

bigandy
Feb 8, 2008, 01:46 PM
Upgrading MacOS server is a very hazardous undertaking.

...no change on 10.4 -> 10.5 then :rolleyes:

tersono
Feb 8, 2008, 01:50 PM
Hell, upgrading ANY server OS tends to be rather fraught - and is something I try to avoid doing unless there is a pressing need. I generally don't upgrade unless I'm also upgrading the hardware it's running on (that goes for Windows server too - of which I've had ample experience lately, let me tell ya...)

My own Tiger server machine is staying that way - I'll upgrade to Leopard server when I buy a new box, and not before =]

x19
Feb 8, 2008, 03:32 PM
Hi,

New to this. I'm a graphic design teacher and have to do most of my own IT. So this has been a pain in the butt! I upgraded from Tiger. Now I'm having the unknown error from Appletalk. It says -5019 error. Even after a clean install!

I have worked with Apple on the phone and paid an Apple Tech to come in. Neither fixed the problem.

So I think it would be easier to downgrade back to Tiger and wait for the 10.5.2 upgrade or this common Appletalk problem to be fixed.

Am I nuts? Should I downgrade? I currently have users with Tiger and Leopard OS. I want them all to run Leopard.

Will that work - Leopard OS users with Tiger Server?

Thanks for any input! :)

What are you trying to do that causes that error? Connect to a network share? Login? etc.

Without knowing anything about your setup I'd say you need to ditch AppleTalk and use a more modern protocol for file-sharing/networking. Depending on what your trying to do, Bonjour may work, or AFP.

somemacadmin
Feb 13, 2008, 02:43 AM
I tried to install in many ways for ten days and an upgrade never worked; the only way I know of getting Leopard Server to work in the least is to set it up from scratch and hand-configure everything including accounts from scratch. We use ACLs, AFP, OD, DHCP, DNS, at times FTP and Print. The OD account import doesn't work, the max. I got was to import the Archive, then import the users from WGM, and then change all their passwords form crypt to OD, needing to assign new passwords to all users; seems to be related to ACLs somehow. Since you probably don't know all users and groups and sharepoint settings out of the top of the head you need a dedicated machine with a dedicated network to peak at the old running installation, because changeip doesn't work properly neither any more, for me it never got over updating local node, I had to run each tool separately that changeip calls and for lack of feedback am not sure if each one really did what it was supposed to do. If you think you found a way to upgrade, just wait, eventually you will find a major fault with it and need to start over. The DNS has a major bug, too, if you don't know how to hand configure bind, read up on the reports on the web, don't hit the save button before changing the domain to what you want it to be, or you can start over. This was with a 10.5 install DVD, I don't think 10.5.1 or 10.5.2 is any better though.
Btw, Leopard users on Tiger Server work fine also with OpenDirectory, we use it in our office without any problems, but the Server Admin tools do not work, so your best bet --should you have an admin machine with leopard-- is to install ARD Admin and log on to the 10.4 server and manage it quasi-locally with its own 10.4 Admin tools. Of course, if you need no GUI just log on through ssh and use the CLI.

freddiel
Mar 9, 2008, 04:56 PM
Reading the tread with interest…..

I have tried Apple upgrades in the past and always had to resort to a clean install. However this time I have a new server, brand new 10.5 updates to 10.5.2 and I can't brows it from MACOS9. I can mount it using the IP address, but can really use it as Sherlock fails to search, so I can't find the files I need...

I am possibly facing putting the good old 10.3 server software on instead.

Any ideas or is this "just as expected"??
Maybe I should just be happy....:confused:

GavCam
Apr 25, 2008, 10:05 AM
I’m just about to do this with 10.3.9 servers. I found that the standard POSIX permissions on are not compliant in 10.4 and 10.5. This is not a major issue in 10.4 but is for 10.5 clients, they just can't read standard POSIX structure because of ACLs. This problem shows it's self in QuarkXpress 6.5 by locking the file to Stationary Pad. (Use QXP7.3 to fix)
So what I've done is build a 10.5 Master Directory server on an old G5 and started migrate my key services one by one. Once I’m happy the 10.3 Servers will just be file servers. I'll just install clean copies of 10.5 and re-share. I'll upgrade the clients with an image using CCC.
It's a plan?

kfetzer
May 18, 2008, 05:04 AM
I’m just about to do this with 10.3.9 servers. I found that the standard POSIX permissions on are not compliant in 10.4 and 10.5. This is not a major issue in 10.4 but is for 10.5 clients, they just can't read standard POSIX structure because of ACLs. This problem shows it's self in QuarkXpress 6.5 by locking the file to Stationary Pad. (Use QXP7.3 to fix)
So what I've done is build a 10.5 Master Directory server on an old G5 and started migrate my key services one by one. Once I’m happy the 10.3 Servers will just be file servers. I'll just install clean copies of 10.5 and re-share. I'll upgrade the clients with an image using CCC.
It's a plan?

If I understand you correctly, this may explain the problem I just started having... my big concern is that I have new Macs on order and they'll all be running Leopard. We're in the process of moving to InDesign, but will still be using Quark 6.5 for several months with the new Macs. I'm trying to determine if the issue has to do with just Leopard working with Quark 6.5 files, or if it has to do with the Quark files being on my server running 10.3.9.

Is the issue with files from a server or even with just Quark 6.5 files on a stand-alone Mac running Leopard?

Don't really want to upgrade all Quark's to 7.3 when moving to InDesign in the Fall anyway.

Thanks.

GavCam
May 19, 2008, 04:33 PM
Hi kfetzer,
I have found a problem with QXP6.5 files in Leopard's filing structure. You can save to a Leopard Server from Panther client as long as you set Leopard's POSIX permissions correctly. But Leopard clients want to apply ACL permissions and this is what messes everything up and QXP6.5 does not like it. We are also moving over to InDesign CS3 but have also upgraded to QXP7.3 as well because the production problems are so great. My main problem is Panther clients can't read Leopard's profile so it won't be directed to users Home folder. So I will have to upgrade 24 users all at the same time I do the servers, unless I can crack this problem. and so it goes on. Good luck to anyone else doing this upgrade.

kfetzer
May 20, 2008, 02:06 AM
Hi kfetzer,
I have found a problem with QXP6.5 files in Leopard's filing structure. You can save to a Leopard Server from Panther client as long as you set Leopard's POSIX permissions correctly. But Leopard clients want to apply ACL permissions and this is what messes everything up and QXP6.5 does not like it. We are also moving over to InDesign CS3 but have also upgraded to QXP7.3 as well because the production problems are so great. My main problem is Panther clients can't read Leopard's profile so it won't be directed to users Home folder. So I will have to upgrade 24 users all at the same time I do the servers, unless I can crack this problem. and so it goes on. Good luck to anyone else doing this upgrade.

My current plan is to run Leopard clients (we have new Macs on order and don't want to downgrade them to Tiger), upgrade our QXP 6.5s to 7.3s and keep running Panther Server.

From what I understand, QXP 7.3 will resolve the problem of Quark running on Leopard clients. As best I can tell, these clients running QXP 7.3 and Leopard will be able to save to my Panther server still.

Does this sound right to you?

I'm holding off upgrading the server to Leopard because (A) it just works, (B) the expense, and (C) I read so many accounts of people running Leopard server and reverting to Tiger Server due to problems still.

Thanks.
Kfetzer

freddiel
May 20, 2008, 03:11 AM
I recently installed a MacPro with Server 10.5 and three MACmini 10.5 at a client (upgrading from G3/G4 and 9.2....) All patched with latest updates both for OS and Quark 7.3 and Creative Suit CS3... It makes me cry to see how poorly this setup works even though it is brand new hardware and brand new software. File sharing issues especially when saving makes it pretty unusable working from the server. Apple direct was not helpful as they just stated that since it work with their plain text editor it was all OK. The Apple supplier suggests “to not work direct on the server, save locally and then drag back to server”. The client previous solution with a 10.3 Server and 9.2 on some crappy old G3/G4 worked like a dream... This upgrade to new software and hardware is a nightmare created by Apple and Software vendors totally ignoring the users....
I am considering re-installing with Server 10.4 or 10.3 (if the Hardware allows me). I have already tried to downgrade the MACmini to 10.4 but it will only accept 10.5
I have other client running the same setup but with 10.4 both on Server and Desktop and they have no issues. (Maybe I am just jinxed or crap…) I never though I would have to consider moving a Mac client to a Microsoft or Linux platform.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated (even just to state that I am silly and need to tick this box…)
I wish we could get the old Apple ANS 700 server back…. At least they just sat in the corner working their socks of… and looked great too..

Sky Blue
May 22, 2008, 08:39 PM
.

freddiel
May 23, 2008, 02:34 AM
Don't bet on being able to downgrdae new MAC's.
I just tried this with a pair of brand new MACmini running 10.5.
They will not downgrade to 10.4 using a Apple DVD. I don't know if it is possible to force an image onto the MACmini in targetmode or using a Utility.

GavCam
May 26, 2008, 04:29 PM
Don't bet on being able to downgrdae new MAC's.
I just tried this with a pair of brand new MACmini running 10.5.
They will not downgrade to 10.4 using a Apple DVD. I don't know if it is possible to force an image onto the MACmini in targetmode or using a Utility.
Yes this is correct. If the system ware is not Intel compliant, then it will just will not happen. Leopard is the only System from Apple that will work on both Power and Intel Macs.

My current plan is to run Leopard clients (we have new Macs on order and don't want to downgrade them to Tiger), upgrade our QXP 6.5s to 7.3s and keep running Panther Server.

From what I understand, QXP 7.3 will resolve the problem of Quark running on Leopard clients. As best I can tell, these clients running QXP 7.3 and Leopard will be able to save to my Panther server still.

Does this sound right to you?

I'm holding off upgrading the server to Leopard because (A) it just works, (B) the expense, and (C) I read so many accounts of people running Leopard server and reverting to Tiger Server due to problems still.

Thanks.
Kfetzer

Hi Kfetzer'
Yes QXP 7.3 will save to Panther servers, but check your POSIX permissions. I will be still runnung a Panther servers with AFP service and I'm alowing evryone access also a Suitcase and QLA Server on a Panther server. The QLA will need to be upgraded to Ver.4. (I'm not sure if thts will work, I'll have to see when I do it.) I'm only upgrading the Open Directory server. Getting the Leopard Client image right will be the the main work but I'm waiting for Apple to getting around to sending me a 30 user client licence. (What takes them so long, Microsoft will send you their MS Cals the next day. APPLE!!!)
Does this sound helpfull?

freddiel
May 27, 2008, 12:46 AM
These MACmini's are brand new, supplied with 10.5 but will not take 10.4 downgrade.

This is a block in the firmware of the MAC's and nothing to go with Intel or G4/5 processors.

This is a typical manufacturer forcing the end-user having to use their latest disaster. Not even Bill Gates does this, because they don't control hardware and software.

kfetzer
May 27, 2008, 01:43 AM
Yes this is correct. If the system ware is not Intel compliant, then it will just will not happen. Leopard is the only System from Apple that will work on both Power and Intel Macs.



Hi Kfetzer'
Yes QXP 7.3 will save to Panther servers, but check your POSIX permissions. I will be still runnung a Panther servers with AFP service and I'm alowing evryone access also a Suitcase and QLA Server on a Panther server. The QLA will need to be upgraded to Ver.4. (I'm not sure if thts will work, I'll have to see when I do it.) I'm only upgrading the Open Directory server. Getting the Leopard Client image right will be the the main work but I'm waiting for Apple to getting around to sending me a 30 user client licence. (What takes them so long, Microsoft will send you their MS Cals the next day. APPLE!!!)
Does this sound helpfull?

Yes it does. Should be getting the QXP 7.3 upgrades within a couple weeks. I basically just run the server for AFP, so hoping that can keep at Panther for a while.

Where do I check my POSIX permissions though? I'm familiar with setting privileges for a Share Point in the Workgroup Manager, but it sounds like there's a concern about QXP 7.3 saving files with unwanted permissions even on a Panther Server? What is the concern with POSIX permissions?

Thanks for the help.