PDA

View Full Version : Macbook or Dell XPS convince me!




G8AMB
Feb 8, 2008, 03:51 AM
Hello

After many years of using Microsoft o/s's I have recently bought a mac mini to test the water on the osx side. I have to say I have been impressed. A few annoyances but generally happy with it.

Anyway I am in the market for a new laptop, I would love a macbook pro, but just can't justify the extra cash. Although the LED screen and graphics card are attractive.

Anyway, after some research I have shortlisted a couple of specs one from either side of the o/s fence.

Macbook - 2.2Ghz, 1GB, 120GB - £829
250GB Hard drive upgrade - £150
APP - £199
Total - £1,028
plus an after market memory upgrade to 4GB - £72.84 (Crucial)
Grand total £1,100.84

Dell XPS 1530 - £729
2.2 GHz processor - £70
2 yr warranty - £109.65
4GB memory - £70
Total - £978.67

The Dell has a larger 15.4" screen be it at the same resolution as the Macbook.
The Dell also has a graphics card of the same spec as the high end macbook pro.

I know the APP is for 3 years, but I only really need 2 and the Dell warranty can be up'd for about £40 anyway.

I am not really a gamer - but do occasionally play COD on my XP desktop - so I might be tempted to use the gaming ability of the XPS - but that is not really what I want a laptop for.

I will use it mainly for email, surfing, photo editing and some video editing. I have a couple of small apps which are windows only so I will end up putting Vista on the macbook anyway (adding another £70, plus more is I go for vmware fusion).

As you can probably tell my brain is leaning towards the Dell, but my heart the Mac. Convince me otherwise!

Also is their likely to be a new macbook in the next couple of months - I can wait a couple of months?



mbrydone
Feb 8, 2008, 04:04 AM
although you will pay more a MacBook, it will last longer and not become obsolete as quickly

applecare is awesome whereas dell's customer service (in india) is horrible

With a dell you will also be getting vista which not only is a pain to use, but is much more suceptible to viruses...

although the graphics may be better it really isnt all that noticable...

Once you go Mac you never go back!

apple90
Feb 8, 2008, 04:05 AM
wait couple weeks not months and you might find a new macbook pro with a completely new redesign (my speculation) with other goodies

tjcampbell
Feb 8, 2008, 04:17 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A93 Safari/419.3)

Simply put, its your loss if you go with a Dell. I actually feel sorry you people. You don't know what your missing.

phjo
Feb 8, 2008, 04:22 AM
The macbook is a great computer (I have the first generation core duo, and it is my first mac...) and I wouldn't hesitate a second. (Be it only for the keyboard, I would choose a macbook over a macbook pro any day...)

Now to put the prices closer to the dell, you should know that with the macbook (not the macbook pro), changing the harddrive is the easiest thing, so I would rather stick to the stock 120Gb drive and buy a second 250Gb if you really need it... You'll save probably 75£ and have a second harddrive to put in an external case for some backups. (An empty case for SATA 2,5" drive should be something like 20£)

You already know that you shouldn't buy the ram from apple, which is a good thing...

Applecare can be bought cheaper on ebay and you don't have to buy it at the same time you'll be buying your macbook... You can save another 100£ there... (I saved even more for my mac pro...) Just check the feedback for the seller to make sure it is legitimate.
Just make sure to buy applecare during the first year of warranty (so you don't have to spend too much money right now...)

Now it is a no brainer, isn't it ?

phjo

ashjamben
Feb 8, 2008, 04:55 AM
the only problem i can see is if you're really serious about your video editing.

if it's simple chop up and replace editing then the macbook will be fine, any more intense and i don't think the integrated graphics card will be much fun

bigbadnewill
Feb 8, 2008, 05:01 AM
Let me buy the macbook for you with my HE discount! :D Then it's definately a no brainer as you can get applecare for free!! (Well, it is 3 year parts warranty for free) and if you want the phone support for 3 years that costs £40!

I'd get the macbook, i just bought one, they're great!!

gazfocus
Feb 8, 2008, 07:17 AM
I'm in the same position apart from my Mac choice would be the Macbook Pro.

I too need help :(

skyrider007
Feb 8, 2008, 07:23 AM
buy whatever you want

MadGoat
Feb 8, 2008, 07:28 AM
It's your money, spend it the way you want. One does not need convincing to buy a Mac.

Cabbit
Feb 8, 2008, 07:42 AM
Not going to convince you ether way, your money your life. make your own mind up.

ChadBrommer
Feb 8, 2008, 07:42 AM
What do you mean Applecare for free with HE discount?

Tymmz
Feb 8, 2008, 07:43 AM
The times are over where people "need" to convince others to buy Mac. If people are happy with Windows why not stick to it?

You had your experience with OS X and Windows.

I personally would never hop on the Windows train again, as long as I don't have to.

Go with the MacBook!

gazfocus
Feb 8, 2008, 07:45 AM
What do you mean Applecare for free with HE discount?

When you buy a computer from the HE Store, you get a 3 year warranty as standard, (The AppleCare extends a 1yr warranty to 3 years plus 1 year phone support). Therefore, you don't need the AppleCare

Plutor
Feb 8, 2008, 07:48 AM
although you will pay more a MacBook, it will last longer and not become obsolete as quickly

applecare is awesome whereas dell's customer service (in india) is horrible

With a dell you will also be getting vista which not only is a pain to use, but is much more suceptible to viruses...

although the graphics may be better it really isnt all that noticable...

Once you go Mac you never go back!

I've used Dell desktops for the past 10 years, and the service has been outstanding.

Umbongo
Feb 8, 2008, 07:50 AM
The Dell has a larger 15.4" screen be it at the same resolution as the Macbook.
The Dell also has a graphics card of the same spec as the high end macbook pro.

The graphics card isn't quite the same as the MBP as it uses slower GDDR 2 memory, however that is alot less noticable than the graphics performance between the macbook and the dell. If you want to play games or want the larger screen then get the Dell, if you want OSX then get the macbook.

Even if a new macbook came in a few months, the issues would still be the same.

ChadBrommer
Feb 8, 2008, 07:50 AM
Really? So, you don't even have to do anything, it just comes with? THat's valid in the US right?

mr.light
Feb 8, 2008, 07:54 AM
Mac OS X vs. Visa? Mac OS X thank you very much. Not much convincing needed really.

Macjames
Feb 8, 2008, 08:01 AM
I would say Macbook anyday, it's the most amazing computer i have ever owned and i'm so glad i switched last november. I know its not really ment for games but i have age of empires 3 and unreal tornament 2004 demo and it stands up very well. The preinstalled iLife suite is a joy to use, I also bought iwork and i have produced some amazing pages documents that have gone down a storm a work. I will never choose a windows computer ever again.

But like others have said, its up to you, dont feel pushed into buying a mac do your research first.

dimme
Feb 8, 2008, 08:15 AM
Mac OS X vs. Visa? Mac OS X thank you very much. Not much convincing needed really.

Mac OS X vs. Visa? that is the question From a hardware view they are both good machines. Both company make great products. IMO it comes down to the software you want to use. If you are buying the mac and are going to use bootcamp most of the time then get the Dell.

akadmon
Feb 8, 2008, 08:49 AM
When you buy a computer from the HE Store, you get a 3 year warranty as standard, (The AppleCare extends a 1yr warranty to 3 years plus 1 year phone support). Therefore, you don't need the AppleCare

What's "HE"? Is that the same as the Education Store in the US? If so, does anyone know if the same deal is offered in the US?

ChadBrommer
Feb 8, 2008, 08:54 AM
I guess that was what I was trying to say... Can you ge the same warranty from the Education store in the US and the HE store in the UK?

Hankster
Feb 8, 2008, 08:58 AM
Hee, you're not going to get unbiased feedback here...this is an Apple message board :p This is like going to a Republican message board and convincing them to vote for Clinton or Obama.

But, since I use both PC and Mac...with what you're comparing both PCs will work for you. It really depends on your OS preference. If you're not going to game with the laptop I'd go with the MacBook as it doesn't have as many issues (crashes, blue screen, bugs, viruses, etc) than the XPS would. But, if you were to use the laptop for major processing I'd go with the XPS.

gazfocus
Feb 8, 2008, 08:59 AM
What's "HE"? Is that the same as the Education Store in the US? If so, does anyone know if the same deal is offered in the US?

'HE' means 'Higher Education' (i.e. University). Not sure if the same offer applies to US. Try having a web chat with the Apple team.

ChadBrommer
Feb 8, 2008, 09:02 AM
How do I do that?

skyrider007
Feb 8, 2008, 09:05 AM
How do I do that?

Go to this website from ur uni network

http://promo.euro.apple.com/edu/hed/routing/uk/index.php

Consultant
Feb 8, 2008, 09:05 AM
Resale value of MacBook will be higher than that of Dell.

If you run geekbench, you'll find Dell will only have about 85% processing power of MacBook due to windows.

Windows will slow down considerably after 6 months, OS X will not show as significant drop in performance.

ZacUSNYR
Feb 8, 2008, 09:06 AM
Work with dells on a daily basis for a couple years and that'll convince you never to buy one.

Good luck with your choice. Mine is for the :apple: ;)

djinn
Feb 8, 2008, 09:08 AM
although you will pay more a MacBook, it will last longer and not become obsolete as quickly

applecare is awesome whereas dell's customer service (in india) is horrible

With a dell you will also be getting vista which not only is a pain to use, but is much more suceptible to viruses...

although the graphics may be better it really isnt all that noticable...

Once you go Mac you never go back!

The XPS Support isn't in India. Its the other product support that is in India.

johnlvx
Feb 8, 2008, 10:13 AM
Resale value of MacBook will be higher than that of Dell.

If you run geekbench, you'll find Dell will only have about 85% processing power of MacBook due to windows.

Windows will slow down considerably after 6 months, OS X will not show as significant drop in performance.

For the sake of objective fact, the above comment is pure conjecture. And to add in some of my own conjecture, I love macs... but so far Leopard has been a buggy crashing problem. Vista IMO is faster and more stable. I wish 10.5.2 would come out to address some of the issues.

Roba
Feb 8, 2008, 11:08 AM
The video card in the XPS m1530 uses GGDR 3 memory and not 2. The Inspiron 15 inch line used the slower GDR 2 memory.
The graphics card isn't quite the same as the MBP as it uses slower GDDR 2 memory, however that is alot less noticable than the graphics performance between the macbook and the dell. If you want to play games or want the larger screen then get the Dell, if you want OSX then get the macbook.

Even if a new macbook came in a few months, the issues would still be the same.

sterlingindigo
Feb 8, 2008, 11:16 AM
When you buy a computer from the HE Store, you get a 3 year warranty as standard, (The AppleCare extends a 1yr warranty to 3 years plus 1 year phone support). Therefore, you don't need the AppleCare

Is that only for the UK? I just checked my school in the US and it only said 90 day complimentary phone support with one year parts/labor.

RaceTripper
Feb 8, 2008, 11:18 AM
I had a 1st generation XPS laptop. The overheating problems were so bad they had to replace it. They gave me a XPS M170. It had 15 catastrophic hardware failures in as many months.

They replaced that with a brand new Precision M90, but by that time I gave up on Dell having even a marginally competent machine and bought a MBP. The M90 has been fine since I got it July 07, but I only use it for accessing corporate Outlook Exchange email via a VPN connection.

In the meantime I have a team of developers using 9 Dell Precision M1330. Already two have had hard drive failures and another one is about to fail.

If you get a Dell laptop, enjoy your time with help desk support in India. There will be plenty of it.

RaceTripper
Feb 8, 2008, 11:20 AM
The XPS Support isn't in India. Its the other product support that is in India.That is not correct. I had 2 XPS laptops and easily 95% of my (many) calls went to India, and I used the XPS support number. Originally they promised dedicated support by experienced gamers. That was a steaming pile of B.S.

ZacUSNYR
Feb 8, 2008, 11:28 AM
For the sake of objective fact, the above comment is pure conjecture. And to add in some of my own conjecture, I love macs... but so far Leopard has been a buggy crashing problem. Vista IMO is faster and more stable. I wish 10.5.2 would come out to address some of the issues.

Poor Windows XP/Vista experiences are usually because of poor useage habits.

There are tons of exploits, trojans, advertising spyware that target Windows machines. There is also a lot of tricks of the trade to get people to "willingly" install those.

If 9/10 people drove the same car, that car would be the highest stolen automobile. Not because it isn't secure, or even in demand, it's just it is every where and is easily targetted.

heatmiser
Feb 8, 2008, 11:32 AM
Poor Windows XP/Vista experiences are usually because of poor useage habits.

There are tons of exploits, trojans, advertising spyware that target Windows machines. There is also a lot of tricks of the trade to get people to "willingly" install those.

If 9/10 people drove the same car, that car would be the highest stolen automobile. Not because it isn't secure, or even in demand, it's just it is every where and is easily targetted.

Bingo. People steal iPods not because they're the bestest players ever, but because they're by far the most popular mp3 players out there, with the largest market share. No different with Windows. In fact, you could even say Zune users who spend all of their time flaming iPods are the media player equivalents of Apple users who spend all of their time flaming Windows.

Chrysaor
Feb 8, 2008, 01:04 PM
Dell.

Macnator
Feb 8, 2008, 01:22 PM
I would go for the Macbook. I purchased one last Saturday and it is an amazing machine! (Got 4GB of RAM last night! running quicker... haven't noticed the full affect yet) I highly recommend getting the Macbook. (Plus the black one is super sexy!:cool:) I have a Dell Desktop.. its a good computer.. starting to slow down.. few years old, 1GB of RAM.... its a fairly decent machine. But all I know is that my next desktop will be an :apple: one. iMac to be exact. All said.. Go for the MacBook!

Roba
Feb 8, 2008, 01:22 PM
You seem to have had a lot of problems.

I started out as a PC user and then switched to Mac when i bought a MBP in Feb 06 and then i bought other Mac laptops. I then sold them all and bought a Dell XPS M1330. I wanted a smaller powerful notebook. My hard drive was making some clicking noises but i set it on acoustic settings in the bios and that took care of that problem for me. When i reported this problem to Dell they decided to replace my HD anyway and they had a upgraded HD delievered to my house the next day for me to install myself as that was what i wanted. I think that this clicking noise is a problem with the HD manufacturing company and not really Dell's fault as such. I was allowed to hold onto my old HD. Apple have also had some problems with HD's in some of their notebook lately.
I haven't had any problems with my notebook really. It is a lovely notebook.

I want to sell it though as Penryn is going to be released any day and i think that i want to downgrade also i always thought that i needed a dedicated video card but i think i could possibly live with an integrated card now. I probably would get a MB if they released a Penyrn version this week but i cannot wait. I also do miss MacOSX and ideally i would like to use both operating systems. I am considering getting a 12 ibook or Powerbook also and a mini PC. I tend to swap and change my computers often. I need to decide what to do soon anyway i am also considering getting a cheaper PC laptop as well.

OP in my opinion i would not buy a Santa Rosa based C2D laptop now unless it was a decent price. If you can wait i would suggest that you should wait for Penyrn. I don't know if Dell are even offering Penyrn yet on the M1530 notebook yet. Also the video card is due a refresh soon in this notebook. With Dell also if you ring up to place your order i don't know if you know this but you can often get money knocked of your order by bargaining with them.




I had a 1st generation XPS laptop. The overheating problems were so bad they had to replace it. They gave me a XPS M170. It had 15 catastrophic hardware failures in as many months.

They replaced that with a brand new Precision M90, but by that time I gave up on Dell having even a marginally competent machine and bought a MBP. The M90 has been fine since I got it July 07, but I only use it for accessing corporate Outlook Exchange email via a VPN connection.

In the meantime I have a team of developers using 9 Dell Precision M1330. Already two have had hard drive failures and another one is about to fail.

If you get a Dell laptop, enjoy your time with help desk support in India. There will be plenty of it.

Consultant
Feb 8, 2008, 01:31 PM
For the sake of objective fact, the above comment is pure conjecture. And to add in some of my own conjecture, I love macs... but so far Leopard has been a buggy crashing problem. Vista IMO is faster and more stable. I wish 10.5.2 would come out to address some of the issues.

Google: windows slow down
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=windows+slow+down&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

2.3 milliion hits.

akadmon
Feb 8, 2008, 01:32 PM
Work with dells on a daily basis for a couple years and that'll convince you never to buy one.

Good luck with your choice. Mine is for the :apple: ;)

I have a Latitude 620 (running XP Pro), and it's fine, other than the battery starting to lose capacity. Then again, it will cost me nothing to replace the battery, since it's a work computer.

Wish people would just lay off Dell. IMHO, unless you're dead set against Vista, XPS M1530 is a much better deal than a MacBook on specs (duh, that's not what it is competing with), and a hell of a lot better deal than the 15" MBP on price (which it is competing with).

gkarris
Feb 8, 2008, 04:36 PM
I've used Dell desktops for the past 10 years, and the service has been outstanding.

Kidding right?

The last 10 service calls for work and people I know that own them, 8 of them the tech had to return because the Dell replacement part was bad.

Everyone in the industry knows that Dell uses defective spares...

djinn
Feb 8, 2008, 04:47 PM
Kidding right?

The last 10 service calls for work and people I know that own them, 8 of them the tech had to return because the Dell replacement part was bad.

Everyone in the industry knows that Dell uses defective spares...

I disagree about Defective spares. In fact my wife was having issues with her XPS M170 and one simple call got her a new Dell XPS M1710. So far she loves it for her WOW playing etc.

lost eden
Feb 8, 2008, 04:59 PM
This forum is one of THE worst places on the Internet to get an un-biased opinion on which machine to go for. Either you are stupid & don't realise this, or you are trying to affirm that you should get the MacBook & so posted in a forum where you knew the consensus would be to go for the MacBook.

I would recommend that you go & ask the same question on a general computer forum, where the replies might actually be useful. As you live in the UK, I would recommend the forums over at Hexus (www.hexus.net).

jmchen3
Feb 8, 2008, 05:01 PM
if i were you i would go for the macbook
1. look alot better than dell
2. almost everyone has a dell
3. if you really like windows you can use bootcamp and dual boot both osx and vista or xp

RaceTripper
Feb 8, 2008, 06:18 PM
I disagree about Defective spares. In fact my wife was having issues with her XPS M170 and one simple call got her a new Dell XPS M1710. So far she loves it for her WOW playing etc.I've had techs come with defective spares on several occasions, including LCD laptop displays and video boards. Wish I had a nickle for every time I was left with no functionality for nearly a week despite paying for "Next Day, Nights, Weekends" onsite service...
:rolleyes:

kashik
Feb 8, 2008, 06:36 PM
although you will pay more a MacBook, it will last longer and not become obsolete as quickly

How does a MacBook not become obsolete at the same rate as a PC based laptop? If anything, the MacBook will be obsolete sooner due to its hardware being older than the Dell's.

thejadedmonkey
Feb 8, 2008, 06:39 PM
Simply put, its your loss if you go with a Dell. I actually feel sorry you people. You don't know what your missing.

You're brainwashed:confused:
The only reason I would recommend the Macbook is if you're going to be heavily into video editing.. otherwise the Dell is obviously the best deal.

Of course there's more to using a computer then just getting the cheapest ;)

slick316
Feb 8, 2008, 07:38 PM
I think the biggest difference between the two would be the OS.

I was thinking about getting a Dell also if new MBP updates didn't wow me, but the only reservation I have to do this is Vista.

I know that SP1 should be out soon, but I still don't know if I can handle Vista as my daily OS. I have a "gaming" PC that runs Vista, and considering that I use it once or twice a week, and only to play games on, its a fine OS.

But the other day, I was trying to put a pre release Windows Mobile 6.1 OS Rom on my AT&T Tilt phone (sorry, no more iPhone here folks) and my god, what a horrible experience!!

Why is it, when I am logged in as an administrator, does Vista tell me that I do not have sufficient admin privileges to run an app? It gets annoying very quick. Needless to say, I did what I needed to do to my phone today, at work, on a PC running XP.

I have no idea how secure Vista is, or its other advantages (I'm sure there are people that do like the OS), but I can't use it as a daily OS for web searching and email and what not.

If SP1 makes some huge changes, I might reconsider the Dell, otherwise I am sticking my current MBP or a new one.

As for the hardware in a Dell, I have several friends and relatives with Dell's. Some are new, most are old. They all love their Dell's. Looks aside (and for the record, those XPS laptops do like nice in my opinion), hardware is the same or better.

heatmiser
Feb 8, 2008, 07:38 PM
How does a MacBook not become obsolete at the same rate as a PC based laptop? If anything, the MacBook will be obsolete sooner due to its hardware being older than the Dell's.

You need to take your Apple pill, buddy. 1+1=3 on this forum when comparing PC laptops that run OS X to PC laptops that don't. :D

Quillz
Feb 8, 2008, 08:17 PM
How does a MacBook not become obsolete at the same rate as a PC based laptop? If anything, the MacBook will be obsolete sooner due to its hardware being older than the Dell's.Don't even bother, Apple fanboys live in another world where logic doesn't exist.

kabunaru
Feb 8, 2008, 08:18 PM
MacBook will do you fine. :)

McGiord
Feb 8, 2008, 08:23 PM
We don't need to convince you, you will decide what is better for you.

Be able to run MacOSX and all the good stuff without virus, malware, adware...and also be able to run MS Windows or Linux with the MacBook.

OR...

get the Dell to only be able to run MS Windows or Linux.

You know what you want and what you'll be getting.

gkarris
Feb 8, 2008, 08:41 PM
I disagree about Defective spares. In fact my wife was having issues with her XPS M170 and one simple call got her a new Dell XPS M1710. So far she loves it for her WOW playing etc.

I think you've proved my point... stay away from dHell...

Dsr1205
Feb 8, 2008, 08:50 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A93 Safari/419.3)

Simply put, its your loss if you go with a Dell. I actually feel sorry you people. You don't know what your missing.

hey i got both mac and pc and i prefer pc. i can use both easily i just like windows more. Mac fans are so hard core when it comes to this argument. truth be told they are both equal and excel in certain areas. from what you seem to want to do, the photoediting etc. go mac unless your familiar with some good photo editing stuff for windows but macs have that crap built int for easy access. Can you get a macbook pro specced XPS, yes. for 2/3 the price of a MBP? yes indeed but will it be a mac nope. The graphics are pretty horrible so even a little might be too much for a macbook. I personally think your should but the baseline macbook pro and bootcamp it up. I think thats the best of both worlds in this case. Powerful windows and mac in one. sorry for the long post but im going through the same what laptop should i buy quest. I got a eee pc to bide my time. good luck. sorry for the ***** spelling

Smoothie
Feb 8, 2008, 09:29 PM
I returned two 15 inch MBPs last summer due to poor display quality. Ultimately, I received a refund. It was a disappointment for me since I'd been a Windows user all my computing life and wanted to try the Mac OS. (I never had problems with XP, and found it to be a stable OS.)

I've had two Thinkpads running XP and both have been completely reliable. I just bought a Dell XPS M1530 with a 1440x900 LCD panel, and the display is much better than the display I had on the two MBPs. The M1530 cost me less than $2,000 for a 2.2 GHz CPU, 3 GB of RAM, a 256 MB dedicated graphics card, a 200 GB 7200 rpm drive, Windows Vista Ultimate and a three year warranty that covers accidents. The keyboard is excellent and it runs cooler than the MBP. It also seems to load programs much faster than the MBP.

I have a Dell XPS desktop that's been running XP for the past 3 years. Both the OS and the hardware have been rock solid. I have a Dell D630 laptop at my office that runs 10 hours a day and has performed flawlessly.

I haven't give up on Apple yet. Someday, I may try again. But comments about Windows crashing more than the Mac OS are really just folklore and marketing hype at this point. And comments about Apple's hardware being better than Dell can't be substantiated by reading posts of individual experiences. My own experience has been the opposite.

McGiord
Feb 8, 2008, 09:34 PM
Does the Dell you mention has something like Front Row and the remote? Has Dolby 5.1 audio so you can connect it to your Home Theater?

Smoothie
Feb 8, 2008, 09:47 PM
Does the Dell you mention has something like Front Row and the remote? Has Dolby 5.1 audio so you can connect it to your Home Theater?

The Dell M1530 has an HDMI output and comes with a remote which fits in the expresscard slot when not used. I haven't tried it yet, but there seems to be a 5.1 option. Someone with more knowledge about it can discuss whether the software on the Dell is comparable to Front Row.

johnlvx
Feb 8, 2008, 11:18 PM
Google: windows slow down
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=windows+slow+down&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

2.3 milliion hits.

Using the same logic, Space aliens are in New York!
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=aliens+in+new+york&btnG=Search

2.1 million hits.


In terms of learning how to tell what is real and not real... start here. It is a good book:
http://www.amazon.com/Being-Logical-Guide-Good-Thinking/dp/0812971159/ref=pd_bbs_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202534206&sr=8-10

heatmiser
Feb 8, 2008, 11:23 PM
Using the same logic, Space aliens are in New York!
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=aliens+in+new+york&btnG=Search

2.1 million hits.


In terms of learning how to tell what is real and not real... start here. It is a good book:
http://www.amazon.com/Being-Logical-Guide-Good-Thinking/dp/0812971159/ref=pd_bbs_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202534206&sr=8-10

HAHAHA. :D

Macsleuth
Feb 8, 2008, 11:54 PM
I was looking at getting A Dell XPS M1530 r 15.4" MBP.
I work on PCs for a living (last 11 years anyways).
My personal systems are a combination of PCs and Macs.
XP Pro is a great OS (now, it's stable, Vista getting better as long as you buy it on a new system, upgrades always bad).
I've got a Dell inspiron laptop (6 years old, built from spare parts), works great most of the time.
My new MBP is going to replace my Dell laptop.
If you're buying a pc laptop, I'd recommend getting a Dell. Warranty, best in industry. ( I've have to deal with most computer manufactures for warranty).
That's not to say that there's been times when Dell support was totally f*cked, but that's with most support.
I've had great support from Dell and Apple.
I like the MBP, because if I need the windows enviroment, I can boot into it or run it in VM. Either way I'm covered.
One thing to think about, wth a PC, you will NEED anti-virus, spyware software should be considered too.
One day, maybe Apple will need Anti-virus, but for now, they can toute that as an advantage.
The MBP might be a tad more expensive (didn't allow that to sway my decision one way or another).
The other PC laptop I would've considered was from Alien-Ware (now owned by Dell, I cried that day).
Dell is the giant, and yes, the replacement part can come from new/used/opened (re-furbished) bins.
But I love their completecare warranty.
Hmm, too much thought and not enough typing went into this comment.
G

goblue97
Feb 9, 2008, 10:51 AM
I've exclusively owned macs for a number of years now, along with associated ipods, nanos, iphones, etc... I usually get a new laptop every two years, right after the holidays. I have a job that requires me to use Wordperfect and word on a daily basis. Thankfully, my wife owns a macbook that I use all the time for work stuff (with xp).

This year, I was looking to upgrade from my powerbook g4 12". I planned on waiting until the new MPB's were released to consider my options but found a dell special on a M1330. I was hesitant because I use windows xp at work and heard bad things about vista. Nevertheless, with the discount, I was able to get a 2.2ghz, 320 HDD, LED, 3gb ram, 3 year warranty for less than the basic macbook with a combo drive. Nothing I found from Apple could touch the price. The "HDMI out" sold me on it and I pulled the trigger. I have had it now for a few weeks and do not regret my purchase. Vista isn't bad. In fact, it has remarkably mac-like features and the m1330 is much faster than my wife's macbook or my old powerbook. Plus, my tivo works better. Certainly, I prefer some things about mac but stability and speed haven;t been issues so far. Plus, vista works great with my airport extremes and my connected printers.

I love apple and I wish they had released something spectacular in the 13.3" size at macworld. I would have gobbled it up. But they didn't and, with my tivo, I needed more cpu power and space than the MBA could offer. I considered a 15.4 MBP and a 13.3 MB, but I wanted a bigger hdd and I simply couldn't justify the extra expense to upgrade when I know I will replace whatever I bought in two years (despite the 3 year warranty).

Dell (and Vista) may not be for everyone, but my M1330 is flat out the best computer I have ever used.

logube
Feb 10, 2008, 04:26 PM
the real difference to me is the OS, first of all because it's Unix, second because it works, third because it works a lot better than microshaft windoze, third because it comes with a lot of useful software like mail , ical, address book, fourth because of the level of integration, engineering and stablity etc.. etc.
true, apple hardware too is beautiful outside and quite good inside and perhaps even better engineered.
but if it wasn't for mac os and ultimately for Unix, it would be just junk!

McGiord
Feb 10, 2008, 07:05 PM
Hardware and Software = Body and Soul

mosx
Feb 11, 2008, 01:54 AM
Does the Dell you mention has something like Front Row and the remote? Has Dolby 5.1 audio so you can connect it to your Home Theater?

Modern Windows notebooks have been coming with HDMI outputs since the Santa Rosa platform was introduced, and even some before that.

If you look at the MacBook, you need a mini-DVI to DVI connector, a DVI to HDMI connector, and then you need an optical cable with a mini-TOSlink to TOSlink adapter.

Then you have to connect the HDMI cable to the TV or receiver. If you connect it to the receiver, then you have to go through the trouble of setting up the receiver to accept audio from the optical cable rather than the HDMI cable which, on some receivers, is next to impossible or very difficult to do.

It's basically the same for the MBP, you just need the DVI to HDMI adapter instead of both it and the mini-DVI adapter.

With the Dell (and others) you get HDMI. You just plug the HDMI cable into the computer, plug it into your receiver, and you're good to go. HDMI passes both digital video and digital audio over one cable. If you're watching DVDs, it will pass the Dolby Digital and DTS signal to the receiver for decoding.

Also, if you have one of the modern dedicated GPUs (even the lowly GeForce 8400M GS that Apple should put in the MacBook), that HDMI output will be HDCP certified and the GPU will have full hardware support for VC-1 and H.264. Meaning you can get an HD DVD, blu-ray, or combo drive that does both and use your notebook to play HD movies on your TV.

Windows Vista Home Premium and Ultimate both come with Windows Media Center. Sorry, but Media Center simply blows away Front Row in terms of looks and functionality. You can get yourself an analog, or digital, or both, TV Tuner in ExpressCard or USB form and (assuming its a Media Center tuner) it will have the full "Media Center" remote, which includes a breakout box with IR blaster that can take full control of a digital cable or digital satellite box. Or it can pull in OTA HD signals.

Media Center really is a great program, especially for recording TV. I use it with DirecTV. I have XP MCE 2005 on my HP (very similar to Vista Media Center, minus the much prettier eye candy) and the HP ExpressCard TV Tuner with the USB breakout box for the IR Media Center remote and IR blaster that controls my DirecTV box. While I'm gone, I just set the HP to fall asleep after 1 minute, after setting up the TV shows I want recorded. During the day, or whenever, it wakes up and records the show and falls back asleep after 1 minute.

Front Row is more like an extremely limited preview of what Media Center can do on Windows.

Plus, if you're using it for DVDs, the built-in DVD decoder in Vista Home Premium and Ultimate takes full advantage of GPU video features. So you get full hardware MPEG-2 decoding, deblocking, hardware upscaling, etc. Essentially, the image quality blows away what you get in Front Row or DVD Player as long as your Windows system has a modern GPU (again, the lowly GeForce 8400M GS that Apple should put in the MacBook can do this, but OS X would have to be reworked to finally take advantage of these features).

jhsfosho
Feb 11, 2008, 02:30 AM
buy the macbook for os x. the macbook gets my vote. and i think dells aren't built to last like macs are.

mosx
Feb 11, 2008, 02:43 AM
buy the macbook for os x. the macbook gets my vote. and i think dells aren't built to last like macs are.

Heh, I find that hilarious.

I've had 2 MacBooks with build quality issues now. One had discoloration issues and both had issues with separation. The second was coming apart where the lid makes contact with the "top case" when close, and the first was coming apart around the hinge due to heat.

I also know friends with MBPs that are experiencing similar separation and warping issues.

Macs of the past may have been built to last, but the current crop are far from stable and not even guaranteed to last a year from my experience. I wouldn't be surprised if I end up on my 3rd MacBook in less than a year due to build quality and Flextronics repair issues.

Fossie
Feb 11, 2008, 02:50 AM
the xpsm (red) are insanely good. I'm considering them now aswell. The 13XX is now sporting a 2.5Ghz Penryn, 4Gb ram...etc etc...all in a 13.3" package.

skyrider007
Feb 11, 2008, 03:21 AM
the xpsm (red) are insanely good. I'm considering them now aswell. The 13XX is now sporting a 2.5Ghz Penryn, 4Gb ram...etc etc...all in a 13.3" package.

The red one is hot!

fakhir
Feb 11, 2008, 05:58 AM
Hi All,
I am from India.
Can anyone tell me the price of Macbook white in Malaysia with 2.2 GHz speep, 120 gb Ram and a DVD burner...

Pls. also advice if buying from Malaysia is worth.
Actually one of my friends is about to visit Kuala lumpur...

Thanx,

Regards,

Fakhir

skyrider007
Feb 11, 2008, 06:08 AM
Hi All,
I am from India.
Can anyone tell me the price of Macbook white in Malaysia with 2.2 GHz speep, 120 gb Ram and a DVD burner...

Pls. also advice if buying from Malaysia is worth.
Actually one of my friends is about to visit Kuala lumpur...

Thanx,

Regards,

Fakhir

Expect the price to be 10-30% above US base price.

tanjacob
Feb 11, 2008, 06:59 AM
I had a 1st generation XPS laptop. The overheating problems were so bad they had to replace it.

I agree. My Dell XPS m1210 is a capable system, but it runs very hot. Even when running old games like Baldur's Gate II the GPU temperature goes up to about 90 deg Celsius (about 190+ deg Fahrenheit) and the rest of the laptop heats up. Running Oblivion drives the heat output over the cliff.

Stianu89
Feb 11, 2008, 07:39 AM
Go for the macbook pro!

I switched from a windows computer to a mbp 17" and its the best thing i have done in many years!

It´s not all about the specs, but when you are getting a mac you are also getting av VERY nice machine! You pay some extra cash for the nice look and all of those small things that make a mac truly great!

And you already are a user of OS X it will be a boost from your macbook and you wont regret it, i know i dont! It´s maby kinda stupid, but everything just works!

And the magsafe adapter is great! On my xps my power connector got bent because i was putting to much pressure on it and i had to replace the powerplug in the dell. and that took a while :P

And performance wise, i think os x operates much smoother than xp or vista. It´s like my mac know what programs i am about to open and it opens in like notime! :P Depends what you are going to use your computer for. if you are a gamer, maby the xps will be nicer if you dont use bootcamp on your mac! (not that many games for osx YET)

lost eden
Feb 11, 2008, 12:54 PM
It´s maby kinda stupid, but everything just works!
No, it really doesn't. My MacBook arrived broken & even after repairs it still doesn't close flush. The OS is far from perfect too; still, even after reinstalling it, iTunes crashes every time I plug in my Shuffle. If Apple can't make their own program work on their own OS on their own computer with their own MP3 player, I don't know if I have any faith left at all!

On my xps my power connector got bent because i was putting to much pressure on it and i had to replace the powerplug in the dell. and that took a while :P
Yeah, that was your fault, not Dell's.

It´s like my mac know what programs i am about to open and it opens in like notime!
This one is genuinely funny, because Vista actually does precache often used files & programs to make them faster at loading, whilst OS X doesn't! But hey, placebo is a good enough reason to buy a Mac, right?

darfel
Feb 11, 2008, 01:07 PM
You have a Mac Mini, what more convincing do you need? It's not about how much either Dell or Apple costs, but the value to you. If the Dell has more value to you then you'll be happy.

It's amazing how people get use to dealing with problems, that they have a hard time letting go of the problem(s) when offered something else.

iPhelim
Feb 11, 2008, 01:12 PM
The UK HE store is just a part of the several different Education stores that you can use to purchase in the UK. I have no idea if the same applies in the US.
I found only recently that i have 3 years of warranty on my MacBook for free, its in its second year and i almost want it to die so i get a new one!



Yeah, that was your fault, not Dell's.

Well yes it may have been the persons fault, but Apple have a solution for it don't they.


This one is genuinely funny, because Vista actually does precache often used files & programs to make them faster at loading, whilst OS X doesn't! But hey, placebo is a good enough reason to buy a Mac, right?

OS X does cache, AppleInsider mentioned this today:

"Mac OS X aggressively caches data to allow the slower HDD to launch its applications nearly as fast on a second try."


Windows Vista Home Premium and Ultimate both come with Windows Media Center. Sorry, but Media Center simply blows away Front Row in terms of looks and functionality.

abahshh! LOOKS!? Compare this: http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/image-files/media-center-edition-2005.jpg

with this: http://atinyblip.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/frontrow_20071016.jpg

And as you said, only the two top, most expensive versions come with it. Compare that with one, substantially cheaper, version which contains all.


Plus, if you're using it for DVDs, the built-in DVD decoder in Vista Home Premium and Ultimate takes full advantage of GPU video features. So you get full hardware MPEG-2 decoding, deblocking, hardware upscaling, etc.

Now i'm really no DVD expert...but...did you just make some of those terms up :D

iPhelim
Feb 11, 2008, 01:15 PM
Bingo. People steal iPods not because they're the bestest players ever, but because they're by far the most popular mp3 players out there, with the largest market share. No different with Windows. In fact, you could even say Zune users who spend all of their time flaming iPods are the media player equivalents of Apple users who spend all of their time flaming Windows.

Except for the fact that there are fewer Zune users, that iPods are good and Windows is crap compared to OS X.

lost eden
Feb 11, 2008, 05:44 PM
Well yes it may have been the persons fault, but Apple have a solution for it don't they.
A solution for stupidity? If you're stupid enough to pull your power cable so tight that you actually damage the plug/socket, firstly you shouldn't be let near a computer & secondly what's to stop you doing the same for the USB/firewire/monitor/audio/etc? The magnetic connector is a neat idea for the most part, but I've lost count of how many times somebody has brushed past it & knocked it out. Not to mention that if you have just one other cable connected, it completely loses it's benefits over a cylinder plug. It also prevents cheap 3rd-party accessories like universal power adaptors, external battery packs, etc. & forces you to buy any replacements needed from Apple.

OS X does cache, AppleInsider mentioned this today:
Caching after an initial launch of an application/file for faster subsequent launches isn't the same as what Vista does which helps faster initial launches (no, I haven't read TFA so I will politely concede this point if somebody who gives a damn wants to fight it & find links).

and Windows is crap compared to OS X
Anybody who makes a claim like this with absolutely no support is clearly a complete & utter smacktard & should be completely ignored.

mosx
Feb 11, 2008, 10:27 PM
abahshh! LOOKS!? Compare this: http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keat...ition-2005.jpg

with this: http://atinyblip.files.wordpress.com...w_20071016.jpg

And as you said, only the two top, most expensive versions come with it. Compare that with one, substantially cheaper, version which contains all.

First, have you SEEN Media Center in action? Yeah it looks a lot better. Also makes you wonder where Apple got the idea for the UI for Front Row ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdpt8jcQjUo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjoyXh2LNuw&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfjE6MTJFOE&feature=related

Sorry, but Front Row has nothing on Media Center ;) Nothing at all. The UI isn't as good, the functionality isn't as good, even the eye candy isn't as good.

Most expensive versions? Vista Home Premium can be had for less than Leopard. You can pick up Vista Home Premium (full version) at newegg for $111.49 (64-bit) or the 32-bit edition for $109.99. Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 is $114.99.

Now i'm really no DVD expert...but...did you just make some of those terms up

Nope, I did not. You're more than welcome to search nVidia, Intervideo, Cyberlink, and Microsoft's own websites to see what I'm talking about. http://www.nvidia.com/page/purevideo.html there you go. Some of their products listed have slightly different feature sets compared to their comparison list. For example, the GeForce 8400M GS HP uses IS capable of deblocking (the feature is there in the drivers and moving the slider has a noticeable impact on image quality).

mrtune
Feb 11, 2008, 10:36 PM
I'm in full agreement with mosx. Vista's media center (not to be confused with the one that xp media center uses) is miles ahead of front row. I'm an ex vista user (used it for a year before switching to a mac) and I've got to say, frontrow feels like a downgrade compared to what I used to use.

heatmiser
Feb 11, 2008, 11:22 PM
Except for the fact that there are fewer Zune users, that iPods are good and Windows is crap compared to OS X.

See, this is where fanboy blindness kicks in. You prefer OS X. That's cool. But your subjective preference doesn't make OS X objectively superior to Windows. Sort of like how my subjective preference of the iPod doesn't make the player objectively superior to the Zune. And there being fewer Zune users agrees with my point, as there are far fewer Apple users than Windows users. For the most part, people use iPods and people use Windows. A small percentage of people use Zunes and Macs. The overwhelming percentage of people in both groups (iPods, Zunes, Windows, and OS X) use them without disparaging their "competition". The small percentage of people who don't are called...wait for it...FANBOYS. You as an Apple user flaming Windows are no different from a Zune user flaming iPods. It looks silly to everyone else in the real world who uses whatever they use to get the job done without flaming gear they don't use. :D

UnclePaulie
Feb 15, 2008, 01:21 PM
Since you're looking at the 13" MacBook, have you considered the Dell XPS M1330? That's about the same size/weight as a MacBook but has faster processor options, LED backlit screen, nVidia graphics card, etc. I am currently an owner of a 15" 2.4 MBP and the M1330. I'm selling the MBP though, as much as I like OS X I bought too expensive of a computer for what I need. I was considering switching over to the MacBook, but I'd rather have a good Windows machine than a slower OS X one.

Shackler
Feb 15, 2008, 02:25 PM
See, this is where fanboy blindness kicks in. You prefer OS X. That's cool. But your subjective preference doesn't make OS X objectively superior to Windows. Sort of like how my subjective preference of the iPod doesn't make the player objectively superior to the Zune. And there being fewer Zune users agrees with my point, as there are far fewer Apple users than Windows users. For the most part, people use iPods and people use Windows. A small percentage of people use Zunes and Macs. The overwhelming percentage of people in both groups (iPods, Zunes, Windows, and OS X) use them without disparaging their "competition". The small percentage of people who don't are called...wait for it...FANBOYS. You as an Apple user flaming Windows are no different from a Zune user flaming iPods. It looks silly to everyone else in the real world who uses whatever they use to get the job done without flaming gear they don't use. :D

WOW! you just slapped a bunch of Apple Fanbooys in the face with this right here. i COMPLETELY agree, as much as i LOVE everything APPLE and hate windows with a passion, this is so true.

as for a OP i feel ur pain. i just wish i could run OSX on a Dell XPS:rolleyes:...legally.

ayeying
Feb 15, 2008, 02:37 PM
Nope, I did not. You're more than welcome to search nVidia, Intervideo, Cyberlink, and Microsoft's own websites to see what I'm talking about. http://www.nvidia.com/page/purevideo.html there you go. Some of their products listed have slightly different feature sets compared to their comparison list. For example, the GeForce 8400M GS HP uses IS capable of deblocking (the feature is there in the drivers and moving the slider has a noticeable impact on image quality).

Its capable, but that also requires a BETTER video card to run it. If you tried something similar to a machine such as the macbook, macbook air, mac mini, it'll lag if they used the GPU for those features. Therefore, it relies on a seperate component to do the SAME THING without requiring maxed out specs on the VIDEO CARD or CPU.

I'm not saying Macs are better then PCs because PCs usually have the upper hand when it comes to upgrade/repair. However, OSX is far superior to Windows Vista or XP in many different ways that we don't use normally so we don't notice it. Its just the little things that people tend not to even bother mentioning and just go ahead with the major stuff such as GUI or bundled programs.

Furthermore, unless your watching a blue-ray or HD-DVD movie on a HDTV with an HDMI thats connected to your laptop, people can easily say that default DVD player program that came with OSX are more then enough in terms of picture quality and sound quality.

mosx
Feb 15, 2008, 04:10 PM
Its capable, but that also requires a BETTER video card to run it. If you tried something similar to a machine such as the macbook, macbook air, mac mini, it'll lag if they used the GPU for those features. Therefore, it relies on a seperate component to do the SAME THING without requiring maxed out specs on the VIDEO CARD or CPU.

Well, OS X actually is NOT capable of this feature.

Neither are the GMA 950 or GMA X3100s used in the Mac minis and MacBooks.

However, all of the dedicated GPUs Apple has been using for the last few generations of computers have been. Even the old Radeon 9200 used in the now old iBook G4s and Mac minis were capable of full MPEG-2 decoding and deblocking. But OS X does not take advantage of these features.

Also, those features don't require "maxed out specs". Nvidia and ATI/AMD's GPUs have been doing things like this for generations now, and even their integrated GPUs have had similar capabilities for quite some time.

The lowest models of the GeForce 8400M family can even have these features, and be configured with only 64MB of video memory if Apple chooses to do so.

The thing is, even modern low-end hardware is capable of features beyond what Apple includes in their "low-end" hardware that has a premium price.

Thats why its possible for low-end PC hardware well under $1,000 to be able to play blu-ray and HD DVD discs, as well as modern games.

I'm not saying Macs are better then PCs because PCs usually have the upper hand when it comes to upgrade/repair. However, OSX is far superior to Windows Vista or XP in many different ways that we don't use normally so we don't notice it. Its just the little things that people tend not to even bother mentioning and just go ahead with the major stuff such as GUI or bundled programs.


OS X being "superior" to Windows is also a matter of opinion. While OS X might have the advantage in say... UI or the way you install software, Windows is far more flexible and has better software variety and DirectX gaming walks all over what OS X can do with OpenGL. Also, OS X has no equivalent to software like WinDVD, PowerDVD, Media Center (Vista), and Nero.

Furthermore, unless your watching a blue-ray or HD-DVD movie on a HDTV with an HDMI thats connected to your laptop, people can easily say that default DVD player program that came with OSX are more then enough in terms of picture quality and sound quality.

Spoken like someone who has never used a good DVD player in Windows with a good GPU ;) Tiger and below had DVD Players that were just terrible. Not even worth mentioning. But Leopard's is better. However, it is still a night and day difference comparing it to WinDVD, PowerDVD, or Vista's built-in decoder. Especially if your hardware is doing all of the work as far as deinterlacing, deblocking, etc. is concerned. When it comes to audio, there is no comparison. You get boomy and funky sounding bass with DVD Player in OS X, thanks to the EQ and the LFE channel (the .1 in 5.1) being discarded. WinDVD and others in Windows can decode the LFE and send it through to headphones or speakers. That makes the difference between boomy bad sounding bass and a good set of headphones hitting as low as a subwoofer and vibrating on your head ;)

For the most part, OS X vs. Windows is subjective. There are areas where both have advantages over others. It really depends on what you're willing to sacrifice. With OS X you have to sacrifice video quality, gaming, software choice, and (lately) hardware build quality, but you gain great built-in software and a beautiful UI and some really cool features. With Windows you have to sacrifice a great pack-in software package and a much better UI, but you gain better hardware, better video, and more overall flexibility.

ayeying
Feb 15, 2008, 11:16 PM
Spoken like someone who has never used a good DVD player in Windows with a good GPU ;) Tiger and below had DVD Players that were just terrible. Not even worth mentioning. But Leopard's is better. However, it is still a night and day difference comparing it to WinDVD, PowerDVD, or Vista's built-in decoder. Especially if your hardware is doing all of the work as far as deinterlacing, deblocking, etc. is concerned. When it comes to audio, there is no comparison. You get boomy and funky sounding bass with DVD Player in OS X, thanks to the EQ and the LFE channel (the .1 in 5.1) being discarded. WinDVD and others in Windows can decode the LFE and send it through to headphones or speakers. That makes the difference between boomy bad sounding bass and a good set of headphones hitting as low as a subwoofer and vibrating on your head ;)

In all seriousness, there's always something better in a few weeks/months/years. So what's the point of having the best right now anyways? If you want a sharper picture on your DVDs, fine, I don't care. But watching a 2 hour movie in ultra high quality or regular DVD quality is still the same thing. I personally care about the story line more then if I can see the pores on the actors face. If I wanted that, I'll goto an Art Museum, that's way better and way better quality (depending on art) then anything on screen.

Vista's built-in decoder is a piece of junk. Sure it has it, I don't deny that, but they don't work. At least for me, I still have to install something such as PowerDVD to make use of the built-in decoder. For OSX, even if you think its crappy, the majority average users are fine with the built in DVD Player. It plays the DVDs they need to watch.

No matter which OS you use, the method of decoding/interlace and such are still the same. Vista take advantage more then what OSX or Apple provides, but 90% of the users using a PC or Mac could care less. All they want, is that "It Works" and not in Vista or any other windows that requires third-party install of software and such.

Also, the specs still need to be higher then what Apple provides for their lower end MacBook or Desktop systems. Running a 8400M card vs running an Integrated X3100 or GMA950 does mean something in terms of other stuff, such as battery life, portability, instead of watching movies/DVDs.

And I agree some of the "lower" end, according to computer knowledged people, will be able to play HD-DVD/Blu Ray. Actually, last time I saw something like this in action, this company's demo of a HD-DVD movie played on a 42" HDTV w/ HDMI, it had somewhere around the specs of a 2.2GHz C2D, 2GB Ram, and a 128MB 8400 vid card and it lagged during the demo.

mosx
Feb 15, 2008, 11:33 PM
In all seriousness, there's always something better in a few weeks/months/years. So what's the point of having the best right now anyways? If you want a sharper picture on your DVDs, fine, I don't care. But watching a 2 hour movie in ultra high quality or regular DVD quality is still the same thing. I personally care about the story line more then if I can see the pores on the actors face. If I wanted that, I'll goto an Art Museum, that's way better and way better quality (depending on art) then anything on screen.

Well, there is the issue of quality. DVD Player in Tiger and below was so bad that going fullscreen resembled high quality streaming internet video. Not even close to what you got on PCs in the 90s.

Leopard brings DVD quality up to where Windows was at the end of the last decade/beginning of this one. But it still has a long way to go.

It's very distracting when that DVD you're watching on your $1400 computer doesn't even look as good as it does on a $500 Wal-Mart system or even a $25 Cyberhome player connected to a 27" TV via S-Video.

Vista's built-in decoder is a piece of junk. Sure it has it, I don't deny that, but they don't work. At least for me, I still have to install something such as PowerDVD to make use of the built-in decoder. For OSX, even if you think its crappy, the majority average users are fine with the built in DVD Player. It plays the DVDs they need to watch.

You're using Vista Business, according to your sig. Which means you do NOT have the built-in decoder. Only Home Premium and Ultimate have the built-in decoders. Besides, you have a MacBook, it wouldn't matter if it did have the built-in decoder because it wouldn't be able to take advantage of the hardware features. However, if you're using PowerDVD, it has software based features that will still improve the image quality above what DVD Player offers.

No matter which OS you use, the method of decoding/interlace and such are still the same. Vista take advantage more then what OSX or Apple provides, but 90% of the users using a PC or Mac could care less. All they want, is that "It Works" and not in Vista or any other windows that requires third-party install of software and such.

To those of us who care about quality, and want our $1400 computer to perform as good as a $500 system from Wal-Mart, this is very important. Theres no excuse for systems that generally have a $700-$1,000 premium tacked on them to come with such shoddy software that isn't even up to what was offered on rival platforms many years ago.

The decoding and deinterlacing process is pretty different on Macs and PCs. Just look at the CPU use ;) With a good GPU on Windows, a DVD will come in around 4% CPU time (2GHz C2D) on a Mac with DVD Player (2.16GHz C2D) you generally clock in around 30% CPU time. 720p H.264 video ramps the Windows system up to 6% and the Mac up to 60%

Also, the specs still need to be higher then what Apple provides for their lower end MacBook or Desktop systems. Running a 8400M card vs running an Integrated X3100 or GMA950 does mean something in terms of other stuff, such as battery life, portability, instead of watching movies/DVDs.

Battery life and decreased portability have been proven to be false myths. A GeForce 8400M GS is capable of clocking down to 100MHz on the core and 100MHz on the memory. Apple could even write the driver so that the dedicated memory only gets activated during games and have it syphon memory via the PCI Express bus from the system RAM. Also, look at the Dell XPS M1330. Roughly the same size as the MacBook yet it has the GeForce 8400M GS and gets roughly the same battery life in real world situations.

And I agree some of the "lower" end, according to computer knowledged people, will be able to play HD-DVD/Blu Ray. Actually, last time I saw something like this in action, this company's demo of a HD-DVD movie played on a 42" HDTV w/ HDMI, it had somewhere around the specs of a 2.2GHz C2D, 2GB Ram, and a 128MB 8400 vid card and it lagged during the demo.

First of all, people need to stop using the term "lag" when describing frame drops. "Lag" always has been and always will be when there is internet connection speed interruptions during online gaming. Not frame drops.

Anyway, if that system was experiencing frame drops then there was something wrong with their configuration. My HP (2GHz C2D SR, 2GB of RAM, GeForce 8400M GS) plays all HD content without a single frame drop and the CPU never goes above 10%, it's all done by the GPU.

Cinner
Feb 16, 2008, 08:37 AM
I recently sold my 17" MacBook Pro (latest version) and intend to replace it with a Dell XPS M1330. I've had it with the numerous hardware issues me and my friend both experienced with Mac computers. But other than that, I want that little Dell because it fits cutting edge hardware in a lovely, tiny form factor. I'm also going to love the HDMI output, and multimedia on Windows is so much better than on a Mac. I think Mac is years behind on that aspect.

What I will miss is Leopard, which is why I'll try to get that working on the Dell (OSx86).

angrygolfer
Feb 16, 2008, 08:59 AM
I've used Dell desktops for the past 10 years, and the service has been outstanding.

I'll have to second this. I just ordered a Dell XPS m1330 with the 2.5 6MB Penryn. A buddy at work bought one 4 weeks ago but the Penryn was not an option. He was ticked off one he found out I was getting the Penryn so he called and Dell is sending him a brand new replacement laptop with the Penryn AND and extra gig of RAM wich they just offered to him (he didn't ask). Dells return policy is 21 days. He is outside of that. Thats pretty good service if you ask me.

Shua
Feb 16, 2008, 09:02 AM
No, You are hopefully a sensable human being, or a close Proximation to one.

You have a brain! Use it.

stevenfarrisohi
Feb 19, 2008, 11:33 PM
I wanted a Dell XPS M1530 and had waited for months for their arrival. They look sleek but in person they feel cheap. Look at the reviews on the Dell site. What I don't understand is people mention that they key covers fall off, the screens are cracked, the fingerprint reader is temperamental, the paint is chipping, and they give it such a high rating? Once I touched a MBP - I feel in love. The quality if palpable!

dj420118
Feb 20, 2008, 11:17 AM
I wanted a Dell XPS M1530 and had waited for months for their arrival. They look sleek but in person they feel cheap. Look at the reviews on the Dell site. What I don't understand is people mention that they key covers fall off, the screens are cracked, the fingerprint reader is temperamental, the paint is chipping, and they give it such a high rating? Once I touched a MBP - I feel in love. The quality if palpable!

That is so true...all Dell's feel like a big piece of plastic. I can only think that they are cheaper because they don't use the same quality material that Apple uses in their laptops. Apple all the way!!!:D

ChrisN
Feb 20, 2008, 11:25 AM
Well I have a macbook and love it, the only thing i dont like are the integrated graphics, I also play cod( actually cod:uo) and it runs ok, I am actually thinking of getting a macbook pro because of the screen size, processor, hd space and ofc the graphics card.
Like you I dont have $2000 to spend which is why I am gonna get a refurb model so I think you should look into that because they give you 1 year warrenty and the only thing you dont get is the fancy box.

tremendous
Feb 20, 2008, 11:25 AM
didn't see anyone mention this but they might have...anyway

1) just buy a new HD and upgrade yourself = cheaper.
2) applecare for students/those with educational discount in the UK is around £53. it is not free (unless something has changed since last week when i was in the apple store asking about it)

oh and i care not a jot which computer you buy.

ElMaN25
Feb 21, 2008, 10:12 AM
MaC>Dell

:)

tremendous
Feb 21, 2008, 10:57 AM
MaC>Dell

:)

phew, i was worried you weren't going to appear and let us know your thoughts on the situation.

angrygolfer
Feb 21, 2008, 10:58 AM
MaC>Dell

:)

Not...
I just received my new Dell XPS M1330. I'd tak it over a MBP, MB, or MBA anyday. It's absolutely beautiful. Like most I thought I was getting a plastic machine, but it's mostly all aluminum. It has the 2.5Ghz 6MB cache Penryn. 160GB HDD 4GB RAM, wifi, bluetooth, etc. I am very impressed. It came with a really nice fake leather binder with the manuals, disc sleeves for the restore CD's and a nice little pocket with a microfiber cloth for cleaning.

I like macs too so don't get me wrong. If you're ok with running Vista (which I am and I don't see what all the fuss is about) then I'd say get the XPS.

It came in at $2065 with tax and shipping. included in that price is a second power supply 3yr warranty WITH accidental damage and 3yr Lojack, Adobe Photoshop Elements and Premiere elements.

deputy_doofy
Feb 21, 2008, 11:06 AM
Until the Windows malware problem is solved, 1 core and some RAM will always be wasted on real-time scans of everything. Therefore, when the Penryn MBP comes out, it will be more efficient.

Please, no comments from the "we have been running Windows since 1800 and never had a virus and never used anti-virus software" people. You're the exceptions, not the rule.

angrygolfer
Feb 21, 2008, 11:14 AM
Until the Windows malware problem is solved, 1 core and some RAM will always be wasted on real-time scans of everything. Therefore, when the Penryn MBP comes out, it will be more efficient.

Please, no comments from the "we have been running Windows since 1800 and never had a virus and never used anti-virus software" people. You're the exceptions, not the rule.

Are you serious? You really think it takes a whole core for real-time scanning? Geez, what did I do before dual core processors?? what an idiot fanboy...

Killyp
Feb 21, 2008, 11:19 AM
Are you serious? You really think it takes a whole core for real-time scanning? Geez, what did I do before dual core processors?? what an idiot fanboy...

He's right actually. AntiVirus takes up a lot of processing power, particularly with things like video and games.

Before dual core processors, about 40% of your processing power was going towards Windows' built in real-time scanning provisions. Windows compensates for this in the task manager so you don't notice any difference (other than a loss of performance).

angrygolfer
Feb 21, 2008, 11:23 AM
He's right actually. AntiVirus takes up a lot of processing power, particularly with things like video and games.

Before dual core processors, about 40% of your processing power was going towards Windows' built in real-time scanning provisions. Windows compensates for this in the task manager so you don't notice any difference (other than a loss of performance).

Interesting... I have been in the IT Infrastructure business since 1992 and that is the first time I have ever heard of "Windows' built in real-time scanning provisions". So you're basically saying that any Windows user that has anti-virus software installed with real time scanning only has the ability to use 60% of their processor? Wow!

Killyp
Feb 21, 2008, 11:26 AM
Interesting... I have been in the IT Infrastructure bussiness since 1992 and that is the first time I have ever heard of "Windows' built in real-time scanning provisions".

I can't remember exactly how you get to it, but right click on My Computer > Properties and Performance (can't remember the exact tab layout at the top) and there's a tick box somewhere. Breaks AVG though, gets stuck in a continuous loop of crashing and re-opening...

angrygolfer
Feb 21, 2008, 11:35 AM
I can't remember exactly how you get to it, but right click on My Computer > Properties and Performance (can't remember the exact tab layout at the top) and there's a tick box somewhere. Breaks AVG though, gets stuck in a continuous loop of crashing and re-opening...

Stop it now! There is nothing for that under performance...

HLdan
Feb 21, 2008, 11:37 AM
Not...
I just received my new Dell XPS M1330. I'd tak it over a MBP, MB, or MBA anyday. It's absolutely beautiful. Like most I thought I was getting a plastic machine, but it's mostly all aluminum. It has the 2.5Ghz 6MB cache Penryn. 160GB HDD 4GB RAM, wifi, bluetooth, etc. I am very impressed. It came with a really nice fake leather binder with the manuals, disc sleeves for the restore CD's and a nice little pocket with a microfiber cloth for cleaning.

I like macs too so don't get me wrong. If you're ok with running Vista (which I am and I don't see what all the fuss is about) then I'd say get the XPS.

It came in at $2065 with tax and shipping. included in that price is a second power supply 3yr warranty WITH accidental damage and 3yr Lojack, Adobe Photoshop Elements and Premiere elements.

Wow, you paid too much. Sorry dude, I have to disagree, I was at Best Buy just last weekend and saw the new XPS 1330 and 1530's and at first sight they looked nice. After I put my hands on one I totally see why the price is cheaper on the Dell. Nothing has changed. The only metal used on that machine is the cheap looking brushed metal palm rests. The rest of the computer is of low quality plastics and the keyboard has what looks to be metallic spray painted keys and the paint on the lid is of low quality as well.
The one thing nice about the all aluminum MBP's is that they will have a much higher resale value down the line.
I have had a Powerbook G4 aluminum since 2003 and it still looks like I just took it out of the box. The Dell's not gonna look like that after a couple years of ownership. A couple of friends of mine have Dell XPS notebooks that they have had for a year and they look worn and they take care of their computers very well.
The truth of the matter is when it comes time to sell your old computer the Dell XPS will have a much lower resale value than the aluminum MBP.

Another thing for the OP (if he hasn't bought is notebook yet) is that a dual boot machine like the Macintosh will always be a plus when it comes to resale value. Many people prefer to try OS X but are stuck using Windows and just the fact that your MBP can do both (supported) you'll get more money for it.

murc585
Feb 21, 2008, 11:46 AM
haha, so many fanboys are talking out if their bums. I was actually in the same debate and I was going to go for the xps M1330. I chose the macbook about two weeks ago. I've had powerbook G4 12" before and OSX is just a much more pleasant laptop environment. My roomates all have dell laptops with vista and they always have a problem i need to fix for them. Their dells always have problems like dvd drives not working, the screen will hardly stay up, their battery life is 15 min, blah blah blah. even my family all have dell laptops.

Apple laptops IMO have a much greater quality, my powerbook lasted 5 years and the battery was still good when I sold it and it was running leo decently nicely for an 867mhz processor. If you are looking to game, forget the Macbook though but if you already have pc, why not get a mac? OSX wakes up right away when you sleep the laptop, vista takes my roomates ages they always end up having to restart their computers cause their wireless screw up. In OSX you don;t have to worry about buying antiviruses every year and scanning every week. The Dells feel very floppy as well and the macs just look so clean and they are so thin. Its also not fun having t spend the first hour of usage of your new dell removing all the junk software they pack in there

The MacBook keyboard is sick, spaces is key for a laptop, the screen is nice and bright, the software for a mac is fun, as stupid as it sounds, I highly enjoy frontrow and I jsut hooked up my guitar to garageband and its so sweet. Its nice to have a change from windows and not having to call india whenever you have a technical issue, which for me is a huge deal. If you already have a windows desktop, jsut get the MacBook, its worth the extra money. I always have my vista powerhouse for gaming and whatever else i need windows for.

ruinfx
Feb 21, 2008, 12:14 PM
oh look another fanboy talking out of their bum :o

angrygolfer
Feb 21, 2008, 12:20 PM
Wow, you paid too much. Sorry dude, I have to disagree, I was at Best Buy just last weekend and saw the new XPS 1330 and 1530's and at first sight they looked nice. After I put my hands on one I totally see why the price is cheaper on the Dell. Nothing has changed. The only metal used on that machine is the cheap looking brushed metal palm rests. The rest of the computer is of low quality plastics and the keyboard has what looks to be metallic spray painted keys and the paint on the lid is of low quality as well.
The one thing nice about the all aluminum MBP's is that they will have a much higher resale value down the line.
I have had a Powerbook G4 aluminum since 2003 and it still looks like I just took it out of the box. The Dell's not gonna look like that after a couple years of ownership. A couple of friends of mine have Dell XPS notebooks that they have had for a year and they look worn and they take care of their computers very well.
The truth of the matter is when it comes time to sell your old computer the Dell XPS will have a much lower resale value than the aluminum MBP.

Another thing for the OP (if he hasn't bought is notebook yet) is that a dual boot machine like the Macintosh will always be a plus when it comes to resale value. Many people prefer to try OS X but are stuck using Windows and just the fact that your MBP can do both (supported) you'll get more money for it.

I will agree with the resale value part. That is with any PC. However I tend to disagree with you on the Dell quality aspects. It's my first Dell so I can't speak to longevity. I have had several Macs and as I said in my prior post I do like them, but for portability and flexibility and what the machine comes with, I don't see how you can say the machine I got was over priced or as you stated a rip-off. Also considering you will never give a PC a copmplement just because you prefer mac.

angrygolfer
Feb 21, 2008, 12:23 PM
haha, so many fanboys are talking out if their bums. I was actually in the same debate and I was going to go for the xps M1330. I chose the macbook about two weeks ago. I've had powerbook G4 12" before and OSX is just a much more pleasant laptop environment. My roomates all have dell laptops with vista and they always have a problem i need to fix for them. Their dells always have problems like dvd drives not working, the screen will hardly stay up, their battery life is 15 min, blah blah blah. even my family all have dell laptops.

Apple laptops IMO have a much greater quality, my powerbook lasted 5 years and the battery was still good when I sold it and it was running leo decently nicely for an 867mhz processor. If you are looking to game, forget the Macbook though but if you already have pc, why not get a mac? OSX wakes up right away when you sleep the laptop, vista takes my roomates ages they always end up having to restart their computers cause their wireless screw up. In OSX you don;t have to worry about buying antiviruses every year and scanning every week. The Dells feel very floppy as well and the macs just look so clean and they are so thin. Its also not fun having t spend the first hour of usage of your new dell removing all the junk software they pack in there

The MacBook keyboard is sick, spaces is key for a laptop, the screen is nice and bright, the software for a mac is fun, as stupid as it sounds, I highly enjoy frontrow and I jsut hooked up my guitar to garageband and its so sweet. Its nice to have a change from windows and not having to call india whenever you have a technical issue, which for me is a huge deal. If you already have a windows desktop, jsut get the MacBook, its worth the extra money. I always have my vista powerhouse for gaming and whatever else i need windows for.

Ummmmm. I'm the fanboy? I was simply posting my opinion for the OP. I also said that I too like the macs. So how does that make me a fanboy? Maybe you should read your own posts and realize who the REAL fanboy is.

dejo
Feb 21, 2008, 12:27 PM
Stop it now! There is nothing for that under performance...
Maybe they're thinking of My Computer > Properties > Advanced tab > Performance Settings > Data Execution Prevention?

Roba
Feb 21, 2008, 12:46 PM
angrygofler i don't know what the rest of the specs of your notebook are did you get the LED screen, 8400GS card and the 7200rpm HD?
If you did and you compare that to the price of a MB it makes the MB appear rather expensive for the specs that it is.
I thought about downgrading to a MB but when i priced one up price wise it was just not worth it and i would end up paying more to buy the MB compared to what i bought my notebook for and my notebook has better specs.

I own a XPS M1330 one with a glossy white lid and i think it looks great. I don't have a problem at all with Vista but it is nice to be able to run both operating systems. I don't even have any anti virus software installed anymore and i doing just fine without it. I am careful about the sites i visit and what i download.


As to the resale value of the Intel Macs they are not so good as the PPC Macs used to be. The best way that you can get a good return for your money is to sell just before Apple refresh a line and to buy a student model also. If you pay full rrp your hit won't be that far of how it would be if you bought the more expensive end notebooks like Sony or the XPS notebooks.
I bought a MBP and then Apple updated the line the market price of my notebook when i bought it was £1,700 about four or five months down the line when i was trying to sell it i was struggling to even get £1,000 for it and i saw some going on ebay for less than that. I was so happy when Apple took it back and exchanged it for a new model as my hit would have been to great for me.

I don't know that many people who pay full rrp to Dell if i sold my notebook now i wouldn't lose to much on it because i got it for a very good deal in the first place.

lost eden
Feb 21, 2008, 12:53 PM
I know I'm probably going to get tempbanned for this, but this guy is so full of lies I have to straighten some things out.

My roomates all have dell laptops with vista and they always have a problem i need to fix for them. Their dells always have problems like dvd drives not working
You'll find that Dell & Apple probably use DVD drives from the same manufacturer; pretty much all laptops use Matsushita drives now. Also, when was the last time you tried inserting an 8cm CD or a business card CD into your Mac? Yeah you can't, whilst your Dell friends have no problems. And what happens when your DVD drive breaks, or you want to upgrade it? Not a chance, yet fairly trivial for Dells. Lightscribe, BluRay? Not in a Mac anytime soon.

the screen will hardly stay up
Complete BS. On the other hand, my MacBook arrived with a busted screen.

their battery life is 15 min
More BS.

even my family all have dell laptops.
What, now you're attacking your own family?

my powerbook lasted 5 years and the battery was still good when I sold it
You are so full of crap it's making me laugh. Even if you shelved a li-ion battery for 5 years without any use at all it would still be substantially degraded. Also, again, Apple batteries use the same cells as most other batteries (Sony, Sanyo, etc.).

If you are looking to game, forget the Macbook though but if you already have pc, why not get a mac?
Maybe because the PC handles everything just fine? What the hell is the point in buying a Mac if your PC does everything just fine?

OSX wakes up right away when you sleep the laptop, vista takes my roomates ages
My Vista machine wakes up instantly from sleep.

in OSX you don;t have to worry about buying antiviruses every year and scanning every week.
You know why nobody writes viruses for OS X? Because nobody cares. It's not worth it.

Its also not fun having t spend the first hour of usage of your new dell removing all the junk software they pack in there
When I got my MacBook I had to spend several hours removing all the crap Apple junked in there; I removed over 6GB of rubbish. Buy a PC from a decent company & it'll be more streamlined than any Mac.

The MacBook keyboard is sick
It's frickin' useless for coding.

spaces is key for a laptop
OS X was about a decade late in introducing that feature.

I highly enjoy frontrow
Frontrow has nothing on Windows MCE.

Its nice to have a change from windows and not having to call india whenever you have a technical issue, which for me is a huge deal.
Not everybody is as dumb as you. Also, in my personal experience, I have never had a problem with Microsoft's call centres, whereas Apple's call centres have lied to me & insulted me.

deputy_doofy
Feb 21, 2008, 12:58 PM
Are you serious? You really think it takes a whole core for real-time scanning? Geez, what did I do before dual core processors?? what an idiot fanboy...

You show your ignorance. A properly configured anti-malware program will scan all things real-time, including files, web pages, etc. Just because today's CPUs are blazing does not mean they don't get wasted on things like this. Calling me a "fanboy" does not change the truth.

I should also add that I don't know that it takes up that much processing power, but the fact is, it takes some processing power. Watch a program like Avast constantly scan as you're simply surfing the web. You may never notice the hit on a current processor (solo, duo, or quad), but the small hit is there. So yes, the same processor in a Mac will be slightly more "efficient," since none of its threads are wasted scanning every little thing you do.

thejadedmonkey
Feb 21, 2008, 01:01 PM
I personally like Vista. If i had to go back and do it all over again, I might have to say that I'd have gone with an XPS.. actually, my next laptop will probably be the XPS1330.

I hate to admit it, but if MS could get rid of the bugs with Vista (which will happen, either by SP2 or Windows 7), it'll be about on par with Tiger.

angrygolfer
Feb 21, 2008, 01:08 PM
angrygofler i don't know what the rest of the specs of your notebook are did you get the LED screen, 8400GS card and the 7200rpm HD?
If you did and you compare that to the price of a MB it makes the MB appear rather expensive for the specs that it is.
I thought about downgrading to a MB but when i priced one up price wise it was just not worth it and i would end up paying more to buy the MB compared to what i bought my notebook for and my notebook has better specs.

I own a XPS M1330 one with a glossy white lid and i think it looks great. I don't have a problem at all with Vista but it is nice to be able to run both operating systems. I don't even have any anti virus software installed anymore and i doing just fine without it. I am careful about the sites i visit and what i download.


As to the resale value of the Intel Macs they are not so good as the PPC Macs used to be. The best way that you can get a good return for your money is to sell just before Apple refresh a line and to buy a student model also. If you pay full rrp your hit won't be that far of how it would be if you bought the more expensive end notebooks like Sony or the XPS notebooks.
I bought a MBP and then Apple updated the line the market price of my notebook when i bought it was £1,700 about four or five months down the line when i was trying to sell it i was struggling to even get £1,000 for it and i saw some going on ebay for less than that. I was so happy when Apple took it back and exchanged it for a new model as my hit would have been to great for me.

I don't know that many people who pay full rrp to Dell if i sold my notebook now i wouldn't lose to much on it because i got it for a very good deal in the first place.

I did get the LED screen 8400GS with 128MB and I did get the 160GB 7200RPM drive. I really love the thing

angrygolfer
Feb 21, 2008, 01:16 PM
I know I'm probably going to get tempbanned for this, but this guy is so full of lies I have to straighten some things out.

THANK YOU !!! BTW the Sonatas are sweet cases. I love Antec gear.

DaveF
Feb 21, 2008, 01:25 PM
You show your ignorance. A properly configured anti-malware program will scan all things real-time, including files, web pages, etc. Just because today's CPUs are blazing does not mean they don't get wasted on things like this. ...

I should also add that I don't know that it takes up that much processing power, but the fact is, it takes some processing power. Watch a program like Avast constantly scan as you're simply surfing the web. You may never notice the hit on a current processor (solo, duo, or quad), but the small hit is there. So yes, the same processor in a Mac will be slightly more "efficient," since none of its threads are wasted scanning every little thing you do.While you've got some concepts right, your conclusions are incorrect. Anti-virus software requires a nearly negligible amount of CPU time on current computers -- as they have for some years.

The error you make is assuming that real-time scanning means constant (CPU intensive) scanning. This is not so. When an email arrives, it is scanned in real-time, as you say. But that takes a fraction of a second. And there's not a constant flood of emails that keeps the scanner busy, dominating the CPU. Likewise, checking a webpage requires a tiny bit of the CPU; web pages are refreshed every few seconds at most so this pings the AV software quite infrequently.

An AV program is going to be largely dormant, as there's normally not much going on that needs its attention. Sure it takes a bit of CPU, but it's of no concern during normal Office work, and even for the vast majority of engineering and science applications.

One reason I bought a Mac is because there is (currently) no actual virus risk -- I don't even run AV software. But Windows computers certainly aren't bogged down by AV software. That's just wrong information that shouldn't be spread.

Consultant
Feb 21, 2008, 02:29 PM
While you've got some concepts right, your conclusions are incorrect. Anti-virus software requires a nearly negligible amount of CPU time on current computers -- as they have for some years.

...

One reason I bought a Mac is because there is (currently) no actual virus risk -- I don't even run AV software. But Windows computers certainly aren't bogged down by AV software. That's just wrong information that shouldn't be spread.

Yup Macs are good. No need for anti-virus.

If you are unfortunate to have to deal with windows in a consistent basis, you would know that almost all anti-virus programs has: scheduled daily scans. The computer slows down noticeably when that happens.

Also, run benchmark on the computers. Same computer, same processors, same ram, same harddrive, running windows xp scored only 85% as the running under OS X. [geekbench]

deputy_doofy
Feb 21, 2008, 02:40 PM
While you've got some concepts right, your conclusions are incorrect. Anti-virus software requires a nearly negligible amount of CPU time on current computers -- as they have for some years.

The error you make is assuming that real-time scanning means constant (CPU intensive) scanning. This is not so. When an email arrives, it is scanned in real-time, as you say. But that takes a fraction of a second. And there's not a constant flood of emails that keeps the scanner busy, dominating the CPU. Likewise, checking a webpage requires a tiny bit of the CPU; web pages are refreshed every few seconds at most so this pings the AV software quite infrequently.

An AV program is going to be largely dormant, as there's normally not much going on that needs its attention. Sure it takes a bit of CPU, but it's of no concern during normal Office work, and even for the vast majority of engineering and science applications.

One reason I bought a Mac is because there is (currently) no actual virus risk -- I don't even run AV software. But Windows computers certainly aren't bogged down by AV software. That's just wrong information that shouldn't be spread.

I'm ok with that assessment. I wasn't even suggesting that it used a lot of CPU power and, with multi-core, it becomes less of an issue altogether.
I am merely suggesting that, because it is always on, there's always a small amount of CPU and memory dedicated to the purpose of anti-virus.

Besides, if you're on this board, you're on the nerdy side of computing. Everybody seems to need that extra bit of speed. They need that 2.6GHz chip because the 2.4GHz isn't cutting it. They need that 800MHz FSB because that 667MHz bus is just too slow. That being the case, they should also need that extra bit of memory and CPU back from the anti-virus program, since it could be put to much better things, like GarageBand or Adobe CS3. :p

Shackler
Feb 21, 2008, 02:57 PM
This is all opinions. you ppl are saying dell is better at the same things that others are saying that macs are better at. everything depends on your individual experiences and the computer you got off the assembly line and that doesnt represent the entire company.
It comes down to your needs and wants. If a budget is a main concern a pc is better option clearly. get your hands on each potential computer, play around with it, use the programs that you will use everyday on it and see what is better for you.

skyrider007
Feb 21, 2008, 03:12 PM
buy an ACER

djinn
Feb 21, 2008, 03:13 PM
No way.. Buy a Packard Bell.

thedudeAbides
Feb 21, 2008, 03:35 PM
I just placed an order for a refurbished xps 1330. with a wife and two kids, cost is huge. additionally, the xps 1330 has a graphics card. well, here is what i got:

2.0 C2D (T7250)
2 GB RAM
160 GB hard drive
128 graphics card
CCFL screen (2.0 mp camera)
1 year warranty

all for $1029. i could have spent another $100 and picked up the 2.2 C2D with more cache, but honestly i doubt i will be able to tell a difference most of the time.

at home i have a 1.6 CD mini which i love, no doubt about it. but for work, i have to run native windows apps all of the time. and the xps is actually a half pound lighter than the macbook.

check out the dell outlet, you can save a few hundred dollars at least. the dull edge of technology is much cheaper than the bleeding edge (because this is a mac forum i suppose i have to point out that "dull" is not a reference to a similarly named PC manufacturer).

thedudeabides

Shackler
Feb 21, 2008, 03:46 PM
I just placed an order for a refurbished xps 1330. with a wife and two kids, cost is huge. additionally, the xps 1330 has a graphics card. well, here is what i got:

2.0 C2D (T7250)
2 GB RAM
160 GB hard drive
128 graphics card
CCFL screen (2.0 mp camera)
1 year warranty

all for $1029. i could have spent another $100 and picked up the 2.2 C2D with more cache, but honestly i doubt i will be able to tell a difference most of the time.

at home i have a 1.6 CD mini which i love, no doubt about it. but for work, i have to run native windows apps all of the time. and the xps is actually a half pound lighter than the macbook.

check out the dell outlet, you can save a few hundred dollars at least. the dull edge of technology is much cheaper than the bleeding edge (because this is a mac forum i suppose i have to point out that "dull" is not a reference to a similarly named PC manufacturer).

thedudeabides

where did u get this from?
do u have a link?

lost eden
Feb 21, 2008, 03:47 PM
Also, run benchmark on the computers. Same computer, same processors, same ram, same harddrive, running windows xp scored only 85% as the running under OS X. [geekbench]
Even if that is true (which I doubt; you don't cite your source & I expect that even if you did I would soon find that it was an extremely superficial analysis rather than an in-depth comparison of a wide range of PCs & Macs) it's completely irrelevant as for the same price you get much more powerful hardware from a PC than a Mac!

Mac Mini - £399
1.83GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
1GB memory
80GB hard drive
NO monitor

Dell Inspiron 530s - £399
2.2GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB memory
250GB hard drive
19" LCD

I sure as hell know which one I'd choose!

RaceTripper
Feb 21, 2008, 04:23 PM
I personally don't care about comparisons between processing power because they don't consider usability, and usability plays a large role in productivity. Arguments about hardware and OS performance alone are probably more relevant for servers.

I'll choose Mac OS X over Windows XP/Vista any day. I currently have both Core 2 Duo based MacBook Pro and Dell Precision M90 laptops. The Precision M90 (running XP) sits mostly idle these days. Even if it were a lot faster than my MBP (it isn't), I still wouldn't favor it.

DaveF
Feb 21, 2008, 04:45 PM
If you are unfortunate to have to deal with windows in a consistent basis, you would know that almost all anti-virus programs has: scheduled daily scans. The computer slows down noticeably when that happensBut you schedule those for 3am, so you're never bothered by them :)

heatmiser
Feb 21, 2008, 04:50 PM
AV cycles are such a non-issue if you use the right software (or modern processors) that they don't bear consideration for most users. The main advantage the Macbook offers in this department is that you don't need any AV software for the OS X side. If I went back to Windows, though, it would literally be a 5-minute affair to set up AVG, and from there, I'd spend as much time thinking about AV on XP as I do on OS X--none whatsoever.

thedudeAbides
Feb 21, 2008, 06:57 PM
where did u get this from?
do u have a link?

it is from the dell outlet.

dell.com/outlet

or

http://outlet.us.dell.com/ARBOnlineSales/topics/global.aspx/arb/online/en/InventorySearch?c=us&cs=22&l=en&lob=INSP&MODEL_DESC=XPS%20M1330&s=dfh

delphi ote
Feb 21, 2008, 07:47 PM
Yup Macs are good. No need for anti-virus.
As they become more popular, it's only a matter of time before serious malware starts appearing in the wild for Macs. In fact, there have been some recent developments in this area.

http://www.phrack.org/issues.html?issue=64&id=11#article
http://www.phrack.org/issues.html?issue=63&id=5#article

DO NOT get lulled into a false sense of security. No system is 100% safe.

forafireescape
Feb 21, 2008, 08:28 PM
As they become more popular, it's only a matter of time before serious malware starts appearing in the wild for Macs. In fact, there have been some recent developments in this area.

http://www.phrack.org/issues.html?issue=64&id=11#article
http://www.phrack.org/issues.html?issue=63&id=5#article

DO NOT get lulled into a false sense of security. No system is 100% safe.

But I think it's pretty safe to say that they're safer than PCs in this aspect...

HLdan
Feb 21, 2008, 08:34 PM
I know I'm probably going to get tempbanned for this, but this guy is so full of lies I have to straighten some things out.


You know why nobody writes viruses for OS X? Because nobody cares. It's not worth it.


When I got my MacBook I had to spend several hours removing all the crap Apple junked in there; I removed over 6GB of rubbish. Buy a PC from a decent company & it'll be more streamlined than any Mac.


It's frickin' useless for coding.


OS X was about a decade late in introducing that feature.


Frontrow has nothing on Windows MCE.


Not everybody is as dumb as you. Also, in my personal experience, I have never had a problem with Microsoft's call centres, whereas Apple's call centres have lied to me & insulted me.

Why do you Windows users come to a Mac forum for? I mean really what for?? I understand that it gets pretty boring discussing Windows on their forums but to come here? What are getting out of this forum more than wreaking havoc.

Now to reply to your most idiotic comments. The most idiotic one of all is totally laughable. Nobody wants to write viruses for OS X huh? Well IMHO that's a deal maker for the OP. Why would anyone prefer to buy a system with an OS that virus writers prefer to write viruses for? That's the deal breaker!! Having no one bother to write viruses for Macs is a Deal Maker. Dude your point was really dumb there. :p


Um 6GB of rubbish preinstalled on Macs? If you're talking about the iLife suite I can't count how many posters on MR that are Windows users that keep wishing Apple would port their proprietary software over Windows, it ain't gonna happen! :D

Windows Media Center is dying an early death. It is actually a very good media center and the only reason that it eats Apple's Front Row for lunch because it's been out for 3 years ahead of Front Row, It should be better but as I said with the invention of AppleTV, TIVO and even the Xbox, WMC is dying an early death, nobody uses it, it's just a novelty. Your point is moot.

Funny how you tried to talk ish about Apple customer support. I wonder why Consumer Reports rates Apple's service above the rest including Dell? CR did say Dell's service was borderlining K-Mart quality. So why did CR say Apple was tops? well, it might be because Apple IS BETTER so you're fulla BS.:D

HLdan
Feb 21, 2008, 08:40 PM
I will agree with the resale value part. That is with any PC. However I tend to disagree with you on the Dell quality aspects. It's my first Dell so I can't speak to longevity. I have had several Macs and as I said in my prior post I do like them, but for portability and flexibility and what the machine comes with, I don't see how you can say the machine I got was over priced or as you stated a rip-off. Also considering you will never give a PC a copmplement just because you prefer mac.

Show me anywhere that I said "Rip Off". If you are trying to ad lib my words then what I actually said must have offended you. Oh well. Also I did give a PC a complement, " I said and I quote, "I was at Best Buy just last weekend and saw the new XPS 1330 and 1530's and at first sight they looked nice"

My opinion was different after I touched the machine so I call them as I see them, sorry if can't handle that. :p

mosx
Feb 21, 2008, 09:12 PM
He's right actually. AntiVirus takes up a lot of processing power, particularly with things like video and games.

Before dual core processors, about 40% of your processing power was going towards Windows' built in real-time scanning provisions. Windows compensates for this in the task manager so you don't notice any difference (other than a loss of performance).

Wow, it's amazing what kind of crap people will believe!

That statement could not even be farther from the truth.

IF you have anti-virus (and you don't need it as long as you don't visit shady sites or run suspicious software), real-time scanning would add an extra 1-2% of CPU time for opening that file. The only time you have any REAL performance loss is when you do a full drive scan.

Seriously, this kind of stuff is pure FUD. It's absolutely untrue and when Mac fans use it as an argument against Windows, it makes ALL of us who own Macs look like fools. So quit with this nonsense so those of us who do have common sense do not look as foolish as those who fall for these kinds of lies.

You show your ignorance. A properly configured anti-malware program will scan all things real-time, including files, web pages, etc. Just because today's CPUs are blazing does not mean they don't get wasted on things like this. Calling me a "fanboy" does not change the truth.

I should also add that I don't know that it takes up that much processing power, but the fact is, it takes some processing power. Watch a program like Avast constantly scan as you're simply surfing the web. You may never notice the hit on a current processor (solo, duo, or quad), but the small hit is there. So yes, the same processor in a Mac will be slightly more "efficient," since none of its threads are wasted scanning every little thing you do.

Actually, you show your ignorance. I run Windows on my HP and Mac without any anti-virus or anti-spyware software. How do I get along safe? Well, I don't visit shady websites and I don't install any software. IE7 and FF warn me about any software that wants to install and I can choose whether or not to install it. But the great thing is, I don't visit any sites that would be potentially harmful (why would I visit those sites anyway?) so I don't even have to begin to worry about these kinds of things. Outlook in XP and Windows Mail in Vista do NOT autorun attachments, plus most people use webmail these days and Gmail, Yahoo, Hotmail, etc. all do virus scanning on the fly.

So as long as you don't do anything that you probably shouldn't be to begin with, you'll be just fine.

Also, run benchmark on the computers. Same computer, same processors, same ram, same harddrive, running windows xp scored only 85% as the running under OS X. [geekbench]

Is there any other proof besides one synthetic benchmark? Because I see software like Handbrake, DVD playing apps, and games ALL running faster on my Santa Rosa based 2GHz Core 2 Duo than they run on my 2.16GHz MacBook. Obviously the games run faster for other reasons :rolleyes:

Windows Media Center is dying an early death. It is actually a very good media center and the only reason that it eats Apple's Front Row for lunch because it's been out for 3 years ahead of Front Row, It should be better but as I said with the invention of AppleTV, TIVO and even the Xbox, WMC is dying an early death, nobody uses it, it's just a novelty. Your point is moot.

rofl, nobody uses Windows Media Center? You can't be serious with that ridiculous comment. Head over to AVS. Theres about half a million people there who disagree with you. Most people use Windows Media Center, especially with Vista. WMC makes it easy to pop a TV tuner in and be up and recording TV from any source, satellite and digital cable included, in a matter of minutes.

Windows Media Center is far more capable, and much better looking, than Front Row ever is and ever will be.

For those with notebooks, especially those sold within the last year, they can pop in an ExpressCard TV tuner, record their favorite TV shows either in high def from over the air signals or from their DirecTV or cable box, and they can simply plug an HDMI cable into their notebook and hook it up to their HDTV.

Windows Media Center also makes it easy to stream media to your Xbox360. Recorded TV, etc all get streamed easier.

Media Center is here to stay and offers much more functionality and (in the case of DVD and HD DVD/blu-ray playback) much more quality.

lost eden
Feb 22, 2008, 05:12 AM
Why do you Windows users come to a Mac forum for? I mean really what for?? I understand that it gets pretty boring discussing Windows on their forums but to come here? What are getting out of this forum more than wreaking havoc.
1.) Look at my sig jackass, I own a MacBook.
2.) I'm not 'a Windows user'; I spend >85% of my time in Linux, maybe 14% of my time in OS X & the remaining 1% in Windows (maybe once a month or so when I need to natively run a Windows app).

Nobody wants to write viruses for OS X huh? Well IMHO that's a deal maker for the OP. Why would anyone prefer to buy a system with an OS that virus writers prefer to write viruses for? That's the deal breaker!! Having no one bother to write viruses for Macs is a Deal Maker. Dude your point was really dumb there. :p
No, you are 'really dumb' for not reading more into my point. The reason that nobody bothers to write virueses for OS X isn't because it's better, isn't because it's more secure, it's because the user base is too small. What's the point in writing a virus that can only ever hope to infect 6% of the market? What you failed to appreciate is what this also says about OS X & it's user base; it's not juse the virus writers that don't care, it's the general public - the consumers. If Macs & OS X are so great, why do they only hold such a pathetically small market share? And it's not just virus writers that don't care, just look at the number of software houses that don't care about OS X; games are the most obvious area but there are many others in addition. You should also appreciate that, a point raised in a recent post, if OS X ever does increase it's market share to a substantial percentile, then the viruses will come; OS X isn't immune to viruses, there's just no point writing them yet.

Um 6GB of rubbish preinstalled on Macs?
I'm talking about the multiple gigs worth of printer drivers, multiple gigs worth of translations even though I bought from an English store, multiple gigs worth of GarageBand loops, multiple gigs worth of PPC code even though I bought a C2D machine, etc. All of what I removed should have been left on the install DVD as extras that could be installed by the user if & when they are required, except for the PPC code which should never be there.

If you're talking about the iLife suite I can't count how many posters on MR that are Windows users that keep wishing Apple would port their proprietary software over Windows, it ain't gonna happen! :D
That's pretty much the only reason Apple turns a profit. If they allowed their software & OS to be run on any platform, nobody would buy their overpriced hardware & they would probably go bust.

Windows Media Center is dying an early death... ...and even the Xbox... ...nobody uses it, it's just a novelty.
You've got to be kidding; try doing some research before speaking out you ass. Oh & remind me again who makes the Xbox?

Funny how you tried to talk ish about Apple customer support. I wonder why Consumer Reports rates Apple's service above the rest including Dell?
I don't give a flying ******* about what 'CR' says, I base my opinions upon my own experiences, as should everybody else. You've probably read my story before, but Apple took 2 entire weeks to deliver me a faulty laptop then refused to send a technician or courier & forced me to take 2 days out of my time to travel 500+ miles (costing my £35+ in train tickets) to visit my 'local' Apple store where they took a full 2 weeks to repair it & didn't offer me a replacement for that time. I have NEVER had such God awful service from ANY company before or again. OTOH when my friend came to me for help with his Dell, they sent a technician round the very next day at 9am sharp & he had it fixed in under an hour.

Roba
Feb 22, 2008, 05:29 AM
I do think that is a bit of a silly question. What i have been mainly reading in this thread is open debate and i think that is a good thing and maybe you cannot handle that.
I have owned a few Macs in the past. Are you a switcher do you even own a Mac yet?
Anyway i am interested in Mac hardware still (and interested about future product launches) even though i don't own a Mac right now. I don't hold a real bias to any side i just speak things as i see them.


Why do you Windows users come to a Mac forum for? I mean really what for?? I understand that it gets pretty boring discussing Windows on their forums but to come here? What are getting out of this forum more than wreaking havoc.

tuxtpenguin
Feb 22, 2008, 06:56 AM
I've had good Dells and bad Dells in the past. I haven't had any troule with my Mac laptop yet. (Knock on wood).

lost eden
Feb 22, 2008, 07:10 AM
I do think that is a bit of a silly question. What i have been mainly reading in this thread is open debate and i think that is a good thing and maybe you cannot handle that.
I have owned a few Macs in the past. Are you a switcher do you even own a Mac yet?
If you're referring to me, then like I said yes I do own a MacBook. It is my first Mac & will also be my last Mac. Also IMHO 'switching' completely from one OS to another is a rather silly thing to do; taking the best from each OS is the best thing you can do & is what I do. I run OS X, Vista, Archlinux & FreeBSD. All have their benefits, all have their drawbacks; but, for me at least, Linux & the associated hardware has many more benefits & many fewer drawbacks than OS X & it's associated hardware.

Roba
Feb 22, 2008, 07:21 AM
Hi no i was not referring to you i was referring to the forum member who i quoted.
If you're referring to me, then like I said yes I do own a MacBook. It is my first Mac & will also be my last Mac. Also IMHO 'switching' completely from one OS to another is a rather silly thing to do; taking the best from each OS is the best thing you can do & is what I do. I run OS X, Vista, Archlinux & FreeBSD. All have their benefits, all have their drawbacks; but, for me at least, Linux & the associated hardware has many more benefits & many fewer drawbacks than OS X & it's associated hardware.

delphi ote
Feb 22, 2008, 07:59 AM
But I think it's pretty safe to say that they're safer than PCs in this aspect...
It's precisely this mentality that makes them an attractive target, though. Someone could stick a root kit on your box and count on the fact that you'll never even bother to look for it. They probably won't be able to string together much of a bot net out of macs only, but hiding a key logger on a box someone thinks is invincible would be fruitful (especially considering the credit limit of the typical Mac user!)

Macsleuth
Feb 22, 2008, 11:59 PM
My god you guys get excited in here over nothing!
People speculate over when new/refreshed product is going to be released and people lose it.
LOL
I make a pretty good (excellent), living fixing PC/networks for companys.
I use Apple producs at home because I don't have the time to be fixing my own stuff too.
I like to tell people who ask. Apple is like the Lexus of Computers and PC, is like the Ford/Chevy/Chrysler/etc.
95% of market (roughly) drives PC. The rest of us drive a small variety of hi-end compuers, Mac, Linux etc. (the lexus, BMW and Mercedes).
You certainly don't see everyone driving those.
Nothing wrong with filling the masses.
I prefer it that way and hope it stays like this a long time.
This should open up the clowns for some blasts my way.
LOL
Seriouly, settle down.
We can argue both ways till the cows come home.
In the end, makes no difference.
Guys who like to tinker and play games on the systems will use pc.
(have my own PC gaming system).
Guys who can afford all the consoles that are out there and would rather tinker on $50K muscle cars, well we use Apples.
LOL
Flame on!
Gary

mosx
Feb 23, 2008, 01:27 AM
That's pretty much the only reason Apple turns a profit. If they allowed their software & OS to be run on any platform, nobody would buy their overpriced hardware & they would probably go bust.

Thats basically it.

But even OS X isn't enough for most people to overcome the price.

Last night I was helping my friend pick out a new PC. For $950 she has a Turion64 X2 2.1GHz (almost on par with a 2GHz C2D), 3GB of RAM, 250GB HDD, 256MB GeForce 8400M GS, DVD writer, HDMI output, etc. She sacrificed a little on processor speed but made up for it with a decent GPU for the price, very good amount of RAM and a nice large HDD.

Now why should she pass up on that and spend $1400 on a MacBook that comes with a 120GB HDD, 1GB of RAM, and a pathetic GPU? As well as a screen that is 2" smaller.

I look at how much my MacBook cost and realize that I did get ripped off. $1400 for 1GB of RAM and the lowest end GPU out there (both the GMA 950 and X3100 are on equal grounds in real world performance)? What the hell was I thinking?

Sure, OS X is nice. But Windows and OS X do the same things, just differently. The hardware in the PC is much more capable and flexible and most of the parts are user replaceable.

I'm sure glad I have a system thats very similar to what she bought or else I'd be extremely jealous.

Apple really needs to get their prices in line, or else this new found popularity they have will not last.

The iPods and iPhone are all great. But their computers are terribly over priced.

zeiter
Feb 23, 2008, 02:48 AM
Thats basically it.

But even OS X isn't enough for most people to overcome the price.

Last night I was helping my friend pick out a new PC. For $950 she has a Turion64 X2 2.1GHz (almost on par with a 2GHz C2D), 3GB of RAM, 250GB HDD, 256MB GeForce 8400M GS, DVD writer, HDMI output, etc. She sacrificed a little on processor speed but made up for it with a decent GPU for the price, very good amount of RAM and a nice large HDD.

Now why should she pass up on that and spend $1400 on a MacBook that comes with a 120GB HDD, 1GB of RAM, and a pathetic GPU? As well as a screen that is 2" smaller.

I look at how much my MacBook cost and realize that I did get ripped off. $1400 for 1GB of RAM and the lowest end GPU out there (both the GMA 950 and X3100 are on equal grounds in real world performance)? What the hell was I thinking?

Sure, OS X is nice. But Windows and OS X do the same things, just differently. The hardware in the PC is much more capable and flexible and most of the parts are user replaceable.

I'm sure glad I have a system thats very similar to what she bought or else I'd be extremely jealous.

Apple really needs to get their prices in line, or else this new found popularity they have will not last.

The iPods and iPhone are all great. But their computers are terribly over priced.

+1

lost eden
Feb 23, 2008, 06:53 AM
Apple is like the Lexus of Computers and PC, is like the Ford/Chevy/Chrysler/etc.
95% of market (roughly) drives PC. The rest of us drive a small variety of hi-end compuers, Mac, Linux etc. (the lexus, BMW and Mercedes).
I see 2 glaring problems with this analogy;

1.) your Lexus will have a better engine, transmission, steering, etc. than your Ford/Chevy/Chrysler. However your Mac has exactly the same CPU, RAM, hard drive, etc. as your (cheaper) PC.

2.) Linux & Windows computers are exactly the same thing.

Maagus
Feb 23, 2008, 07:13 AM
But even OS X isn't enough for most people to overcome the price.

Last night I was helping my friend pick out a new PC. For $950 she has a Turion64 X2 2.1GHz (almost on par with a 2GHz C2D), 3GB of RAM, 250GB HDD, 256MB GeForce 8400M GS, DVD writer, HDMI output, etc. She sacrificed a little on processor speed but made up for it with a decent GPU for the price, very good amount of RAM and a nice large HDD.

Now why should she pass up on that and spend $1400 on a MacBook that comes with a 120GB HDD, 1GB of RAM, and a pathetic GPU? As well as a screen that is 2" smaller.

I look at how much my MacBook cost and realize that I did get ripped off. $1400 for 1GB of RAM and the lowest end GPU out there (both the GMA 950 and X3100 are on equal grounds in real world performance)? What the hell was I thinking?



Different people = different needs ? Maybe that is the reason ;) ? For example I don't want bigger notebook than 13.3, I want notebook that last 5 - 6 hours on standard battery (I don't want battery that is bigger than the bay because it is difficult to carry in the bag).
So I look at my Macbook and realize how good buy it has been.

stevenfarrisohi
Feb 23, 2008, 08:23 AM
As consumers we are becoming more content with mediocrity in our service and product array. PC vendors - Including Apple and their ridiculous RAM prices - Need to hear from us!!!

XPS vs. MBP -
This is recent feedback from a consumer that recently bought a Dell XPS - This person gave Dell an outstanding rating???!???!???!???

I ended up with two of these because the first one shipped with the wrong screen. The first one came with a perfect fit and finish, however the fingerprint scanner worked less than 50% of the time. The volume controls are touch sensitive by design, and seemed to not be sensitive enough (causing me to mash the buttons multiple times just to get the machine to recognize the fact that I was trying to adjust the volume). On the second machine the volume controls were much more sensitive, and the fingerprint scanner worked flawlessly, however the fit and finish were horrible. The hinges creak and make a grinding noise when opening and closing the screen, and the plastic across the top of the keyboard (above the F keys) was warped. Mind you, I'd much prefer a machine that works over one that looks good, but it left me wondering why I cant have both.
All in all, I'm very happy with the machine. I'm an avid gamer, and the 256 meg Nvidia card handles everything I throw at it wonderfully. It's slim and sleek, and the red exterior is sexy as heck.

scienide09
Feb 23, 2008, 08:51 AM
This thread is still going, I see. I monitored it for a while, but left off. Now I'm back.

My wife was recently given a XPS 1530 for business use, while our MBP now remains at home. Hands down, both of us prefer the MacBook Pro.

The MBP is physically more user-friendly. (Stray button presses, awkward positioning of mouse/buttons on XPS).
Overall, OS X is superior software. (I've been using XP for 5+ years, and believe this).

DaveF
Feb 23, 2008, 11:23 AM
But even OS X isn't enough for most people to overcome the price.

Last night I was helping my friend pick out a new PC. For $950 she has a Turion64 X2 2.1GHz (almost on par with a 2GHz C2D), 3GB of RAM, 250GB HDD, 256MB GeForce 8400M GS, DVD writer, HDMI output, etc. She sacrificed a little on processor speed but made up for it with a decent GPU for the price, very good amount of RAM and a nice large HDD.

Now why should she pass up on that and spend $1400 on a MacBook that comes with a 120GB HDD, 1GB of RAM, and a pathetic GPU? As well as a screen that is 2" smaller. Not everyone considers price the primary factor when buying certain things.

What's most annoying is the pernicious thinking that "You don't do things the way I do things, therefore you're wrong!"

lost eden
Feb 23, 2008, 11:24 AM
Different people = different needs ? Maybe that is the reason ;) ? For example I don't want bigger notebook than 13.3, I want notebook that last 5 - 6 hours on standard battery (I don't want battery that is bigger than the bay because it is difficult to carry in the bag).
So I look at my Macbook and realize how good buy it has been.
You've got some serious delusions; the MacBook doesn't last 5 hours let alone 6, even if you leave it idling on the lowest backlight with no wifi.

Also, "different people = different needs" is not an excuse to pay more for inferior hardware. If you don't need a powerful graphics card, then you buy a laptop without a powerful graphics card & you save money over the similar model with the powerful graphics card. However with the MacBook you pay more to get a machine without the powerful graphics card!

Maagus
Feb 23, 2008, 12:18 PM
You've got some serious delusions; the MacBook doesn't last 5 hours let alone 6, even if you leave it idling on the lowest backlight with no wifi.

Also, "different people = different needs" is not an excuse to pay more for inferior hardware. If you don't need a powerful graphics card, then you buy a laptop without a powerful graphics card & you save money over the similar model with the powerful graphics card. However with the MacBook you pay more to get a machine without the powerful graphics card!

Oh, my experience must be wrong then :-) Wifi on, internet browsing and word typing, backlight between 1/4 and 1/2, time on battery : around 5:40 hours. Battery is only couple of cycles old.
I did some serious market research before buying Macbook. There was no cheaper laptop suitable for my needs. Dell XPS M1330 (which has been the only closest competitor) is more expensive at the same spec than middle Macbook in my country. Would you be so kind and show me 13.3 notebook with slot-in, bluetooth, magnetic latch (mechanic latch often breaks, I have worked in IBM and Dell repair center), standard battery life 4+ hours that is cheaper than 1299 USD and is built by some at least mediocre brand (ie. no Acer, MSI, UMAX, VBI) ?

deputy_doofy
Feb 23, 2008, 12:47 PM
Actually, you show your ignorance. I run Windows on my HP and Mac without any anti-virus or anti-spyware software. How do I get along safe? Well, I don't visit shady websites and I don't install any software. IE7 and FF warn me about any software that wants to install and I can choose whether or not to install it. But the great thing is, I don't visit any sites that would be potentially harmful (why would I visit those sites anyway?) so I don't even have to begin to worry about these kinds of things. Outlook in XP and Windows Mail in Vista do NOT autorun attachments, plus most people use webmail these days and Gmail, Yahoo, Hotmail, etc. all do virus scanning on the fly.

Ok, so don't go to shady sites and don't install anything. Thanks for the lesson.
Now, off to the real world. People DO visit shady sites on PCs and Macs and they do download and install stuff. The difference is, on the PC, you will have every STD on the planet. Some might even install themselves behind the scenes.
On the Mac, you MIGHT get a trojan if you download and provide admin info to do the install.
YOU can surf the PC safely. A lot of people on this site can surf the PC safely. However, in the real world, the same people bring me their re-infected PCs.

Common Sense on a PC = probably not infected
Common Sense on a Mac = definitely not infected

heatmiser
Feb 23, 2008, 12:52 PM
Common Sense on a PC = probably not infected
Common Sense on a Mac = definitely not infected

Nah. With common sense, you don't get infected on either, no "probably" about it. The difference between OS X and Windows is that few bother to write malware for OS X because so few people use it. This doesn't make OS X superior to Windows any more than the fact that Zunes are less likely to get stolen than iPods because so few people know what they are makes Zunes superior to iPods.

aiterum
Feb 23, 2008, 01:07 PM
Nah. With common sense, you don't get infected on either, no "probably" about it. The difference between OS X and Windows is that few bother to write malware for OS X because so few people use it. This doesn't make OS X superior to Windows any more than the fact that Zunes are less likely to get stolen than iPods because so few people know what they are makes Zunes superior to iPods.

This. I hate the argument of "OSX is better because it doesn't get viruses." Anyone with common sense on a windows machine will never get a virus. OSX protects itself by being such a small and obscure percentage of computer users

lost eden
Feb 23, 2008, 02:32 PM
Oh, my experience must be wrong then :-) Wifi on, internet browsing and word typing, backlight between 1/4 and 1/2, time on battery : around 5:40 hours. Battery is only couple of cycles old.
I did some serious market research before buying Macbook. There was no cheaper laptop suitable for my needs. Dell XPS M1330 (which has been the only closest competitor) is more expensive at the same spec than middle Macbook in my country. Would you be so kind and show me 13.3 notebook with slot-in, bluetooth, magnetic latch (mechanic latch often breaks, I have worked in IBM and Dell repair center), standard battery life 4+ hours that is cheaper than 1299 USD and is built by some at least mediocre brand (ie. no Acer, MSI, UMAX, VBI) ?
I'm not even going to bother searching, because you have childishly posed the question knowing full well that probably no other brand uses a slot-laod optical drive (because they are less functional than tray drives) nor magnetic latches (again, because they are less functional than mechanical latches; & anybody who treats their laptop with even the slightest respect will never experience a broken latch).

deputy_doofy
Feb 23, 2008, 02:52 PM
This. I hate the argument of "OSX is better because it doesn't get viruses." Anyone with common sense on a windows machine will never get a virus. OSX protects itself by being such a small and obscure percentage of computer users

And I hate THIS argument. Everyone likes to talk about how nobody will write malware because Mac's marketshare is too small. This is BS. There are multi-millions of Macs being used and the marketshare has been growing gradually every year. Surely, somebody must want to put me in my place by now? Since using OS9 and then 10.1, I have never used anti-malware programs. I've been to some shady sites over the last number of years. NOT ONCE have I been infected. Surely, someone must think it's worth it to infect all those rich, arrogant Mac users?
When programs start auto-installing on my Mac, I'll eat my words. Until then, your words are empty.

G.I. Joe
Feb 23, 2008, 02:53 PM
You've got some serious delusions; the MacBook doesn't last 5 hours let alone 6, even if you leave it idling on the lowest backlight with no wifi.

Also, "different people = different needs" is not an excuse to pay more for inferior hardware. If you don't need a powerful graphics card, then you buy a laptop without a powerful graphics card & you save money over the similar model with the powerful graphics card. However with the MacBook you pay more to get a machine without the powerful graphics card!

I mainly agree with you. But I think Apple products also have an emotional factor on the purchase. We often buy things we don't need. For instance people buy huge SUV's, cars that can go beyond 330km/h, engines with 300hp or more. My question now is what for? Bigger is better? That's so primitive thinking.. How many times will you be able to go over 300km/h on a road? Why do you need engines with so much hp that consume so much gas if you follow limit speeds (or not)? I bet alot of people would buy an old beaten up ferrari instead of buying a new cheaper VW just because it's a ferrari.

My point is, people often don't make reasonable life decisions let alone a computer purchase.

HLdan
Feb 23, 2008, 03:11 PM
And I hate THIS argument. Everyone likes to talk about how nobody will write malware because Mac's marketshare is too small. This is BS. There are multi-millions of Macs being used and the marketshare has been growing gradually every year. Surely, somebody must want to put me in my place by now? Since using OS9 and then 10.1, I have never used anti-malware programs. I've been to some shady sites over the last number of years. NOT ONCE have I been infected. Surely, someone must think it's worth it to infect all those rich, arrogant Mac users?
When programs start auto-installing on my Mac, I'll eat my words. Until then, your words are empty.


Totally agreed. The ignorance and stupidity of the comments made by some posters saying Macs aren't worth the hackers time to write viruses for is outrageous!
Yawn, this is the same argument from 5 years and ago and since then Apple's computers have had a dramatic increase in market share and nothing has happened still.
Yeah, I read everyday how Mac users are really arrogant so why hasn't a hacker tried to rain on our arrogant parade? One word, Unix.

I'm sorry that people running a very insecure system such as Windows are in denial that the Mac OS X system is built upon a very secure system and they just can't stand the fact that Windows is beyond repair and will never be as secure as Mac OSX.

I don't care what kind of anti-virus/spyware that's installed on a PC I would never do online banking. Anyone that has done online banking on a PC well, let's just say your info has already been stolen. :p

lost eden
Feb 23, 2008, 03:18 PM
And I hate THIS argument. Everyone likes to talk about how nobody will write malware because Mac's marketshare is too small. This is BS. There are multi-millions of Macs being used and the marketshare has been growing gradually every year. Surely, somebody must want to put me in my place by now? Since using OS9 and then 10.1, I have never used anti-malware programs. I've been to some shady sites over the last number of years. NOT ONCE have I been infected. Surely, someone must think it's worth it to infect all those rich, arrogant Mac users?
No. Using the term 'multi-millions' is useless. What you should be looking at is the percentage market share; about 6%, or far too small to be worth the bother of virus/malware writers. I can't imagine OS X becoming a viable target for these groups unless Apple can increase their market saturation to maybe >25%. Anybody who thinks that OS X is virus free for any other reason than it's pathetically small market share is deluded; it's a commercial operating system popular with dumb consumers, as soon as there are enough of them the viruses will come.

Maagus
Feb 23, 2008, 03:23 PM
I'm not even going to bother searching, because you have childishly posed the question knowing full well that probably no other brand uses a slot-laod optical drive (because they are less functional than tray drives) nor magnetic latches (again, because they are less functional than mechanical latches; & anybody who treats their laptop with even the slightest respect will never experience a broken latch).

Yes, that is correct, it was childisly posed just to make a point that there may be some people who don't look only at the HW spec (like you do) but are interested in added value (overall design, battery life, operating system, additional apps etc.). It means that some people may have (and they probably have, at least I do) different tastes and needs than you. I seriously don't care much about HW specs because for the work I do, it doesn't matter if it has couple GHz more or if it has powerful graphic card. What matters to me is operating system (Mac OS), battery life, size.
Another example is that I prefer slot-in optical drive because it makes loading CDs easier for me (l don't have to worry about breaking the tray), I don't use mini CDs so I don't mind that they won't fit in the slot-in optical drive.
So do you still think that different people don't have different needs and priorities and that they are being irrational when their preffered key product features don't match yours ?

mosx
Feb 23, 2008, 04:30 PM
Different people = different needs ? Maybe that is the reason ? For example I don't want bigger notebook than 13.3, I want notebook that last 5 - 6 hours on standard battery (I don't want battery that is bigger than the bay because it is difficult to carry in the bag).
So I look at my Macbook and realize how good buy it has been.

You really believe the MacBook gets 5-6 hours of real world battery life?

Not even close. With wifi on and browsing the web using a reasonable screen setting (about 50% brightness) you'll get around 4 hours. Which is only about 30 minutes more than HP's and Dell's with 6 cell batteries on 15.4" screens get.

The only way you're going to get between 5 and 6 hours of battery life is if you set the screen to the lowest setting and turn wifi and bluetooth off and do some light typing in TextEdit.

Not to mention the MacBook only comes with a gig of RAM and the "new" GPU actually performs worse than the previous generation.

Don't get me started on the build quality of the MacBook either.

Overall, OS X is superior software. (I've been using XP for 5+ years, and believe this)

That's definitely a matter of opinion. OS X may be nice, but flexibility and the ability to choose from software and use high quality software is more important than a nicer OS that doesn't let you do as much.

Not everyone considers price the primary factor when buying certain things

Price should always be a consideration. It is absolutely ridiculous that Apple gets away with selling a system for around $1400 after taxes that only includes the worst of the worst GPU and 1GB of memory, when those selling for $400-$500 less have twice the HDD space, 2-3x as much memory, DVD writers that not even the $1100 Mac includes, similar battery life, bigger screens, better build quality, etc.

Wifi on, internet browsing and word typing, backlight between 1/4 and 1/2, time on battery : around 5:40 hours. Battery is only couple of cycles old

The timer in the menu bar is far from accurate. Theres been plenty of times where it told me I had more than 7 hours of battery life left when just booting up my system. Then an hour later it would fluctuate between 3:45 and 5 hours remaining. That timer is far from accurate.

Would you be so kind and show me 13.3 notebook with slot-in, bluetooth, magnetic latch (mechanic latch often breaks, I have worked in IBM and Dell repair center), standard battery life 4+ hours that is cheaper than 1299 USD and is built by some at least mediocre brand (ie. no Acer, MSI, UMAX, VBI) ?

The magnetic latch causes as many problems as an actual latch. Haven't you read all of the reports of the plastic around the LCD chipping off because of people having to use force to lift the lid? Or how about the plastic/rubber on the "top case"/wrist rest that gets broken due to the force of the magnetic latch?

Most Windows PCs don't even have latches any more. They just close. My HP doesn't have a latch.

Slot loading drive? That is a NEGATIVE. On most Windows PCs, a drive replacement consists of taking a single screw out and sliding the drive out. They also cost around $50-$60. On a Mac, you have to perform surgery and rip the entire system apart and put in a part that costs upwards of $200. Or you have to get it professionally repaired for $275 or more.

Again, the battery timer is NOT accurate. Real world will be around 4 hours of battery life. Which is hardly any more than what most 6 cell battery based notebooks get.

Apple doesn't build their notebooks either. They contract the same people that most other companies use as well, like Asus and Quanta.

Ok, so don't go to shady sites and don't install anything. Thanks for the lesson.
Now, off to the real world. People DO visit shady sites on PCs and Macs and they do download and install stuff

Well, if people are visiting shady "adult" sites or clicking through sites on their google search for "free software downloads" then they deserve what they get. The same people who do that would be the same type of people who manage to screw up their OS X install as well.

The difference is, on the PC, you will have every STD on the planet. Some might even install themselves behind the scenes.

Firefox has never allowed software to install without the users knowledge. This problem has been fixed for YEARS with Windows XP SP2 as well.

Any person who doesn't run Windows Update, or automatic updates in Windows, will be just as vulnerable on a Mac. Viruses won't be their problem on a Mac, but their own stupidity.

When programs start auto-installing on my Mac, I'll eat my words. Until then, your words are empty.

Seeing as how I've never been infected, nor any of my friends, in the 17 or so years I've been using Windows, AND XP SP2 and Vista do NOT allow background installations, your words mean absolutely nothing either.

I don't care what kind of anti-virus/spyware that's installed on a PC I would never do online banking. Anyone that has done online banking on a PC well, let's just say your info has already been stolen

See, now thats just ignorant.

The only way a Windows PC can be infected with anything is if the user lacks any amount of common sense and infects it themselves. The days of security holes that let software auto install are long gone.

Even with Internet Explorer. I don't mean IE7 either.

Yes, that is correct, it was childisly posed just to make a point that there may be some people who don't look only at the HW spec (like you do) but are interested in added value (overall design, battery life, operating system, additional apps etc.)

Added value?

Such as?

There isn't anything that OS X does that Windows can't do. Sure, iLife is a nice bundle. But, aside from iTunes and iPhoto, how often do you use the built-in applications?

I've used iDVD ONCE. I've only opened iMovie to see what it looks like. Garage Band I have played with maybe three times.

The design of the MacBook is nice, but it's offset by awful build quality and the fact that it can simply start to come apart at several points. Plus the system can crack at multiple points because of heat and an extremely poor cooling system. Then theres discoloration, chipping plastic, etc.

Once again, the battery life is not that great.

"Added value" comes from getting your moneys worth. For the price, the MacBook should at least come with 2GB of RAM, 160GB HDD, DVD writer standard, and a dedicated GPU.

Another example is that I prefer slot-in optical drive because it makes loading CDs easier for me (l don't have to worry about breaking the tray), I don't use mini CDs so I don't mind that they won't fit in the slot-in optical drive.

Breaking the tray? Sure, if you hit it with a sledgehammer while its open. But the tray will have no problem absorbing the normal amount of "force" it receives from securing a disc.

A tray drive is almost always user upgradeable or replaceable as well. A $50 replacement if it dies. Not $200 for the drive and then $75 for labor. Or you can just upgrade it. With some companies shrinking the size of blu-ray and HD DVD drives down to standard sizes, it won't be too long before you can buy a blu-ray reader for your notebook and just pop it in. For the uninformed, systems today that ship with HD DVD or blu-ray drives built in (notebooks, not desktops) have slightly larger and non-standard size drives.

delphi ote
Feb 23, 2008, 04:34 PM
Anybody who thinks that OS X is virus free for any other reason than it's pathetically small market share is deluded; it's a commercial operating system popular with dumb consumers, as soon as there are enough of them the viruses will come.
In a previous post in this thread, I already pointed out published vulnerabilities and a rootkit. Macs are being targeted with the market share they have already. Users with deputy_doofy's delusions of invincibility are only insuring that they'll never even know if their machine is infected.

lost eden
Feb 23, 2008, 05:10 PM
Yes, that is correct, it was childisly posed just to make a point that there may be some people who don't look only at the HW spec (like you do) but are interested in added value (overall design, battery life, operating system, additional apps etc.). It means that some people may have (and they probably have, at least I do) different tastes and needs than you. I seriously don't care much about HW specs because for the work I do, it doesn't matter if it has couple GHz more or if it has powerful graphic card. What matters to me is operating system (Mac OS), battery life, size.
Another example is that I prefer slot-in optical drive because it makes loading CDs easier for me (l don't have to worry about breaking the tray), I don't use mini CDs so I don't mind that they won't fit in the slot-in optical drive.
So do you still think that different people don't have different needs and priorities and that they are being irrational when their preffered key product features don't match yours ?
I don't think I made myself clear enough, so I'll try approaching from a different angle. I fully appreciate that different users have different requirements; I have lost count of how many computers I have specced & built for myself, my family, friends & even on contract. Where Apple machines dismally fail wrt this respect is that they offer virtually no choices of hardware & whatever choice you go for you know that you will be paying far too much for it. You may not need a fast processor, but if you buy an Apple you will be forced to get one & also be forced to pay too much for it. Why pay such a premium for something you don't need?

Maagus
Feb 23, 2008, 05:16 PM
You really believe the MacBook gets 5-6 hours of real world battery life?

Not even close. With wifi on and browsing the web using a reasonable screen setting (about 50% brightness) you'll get around 4 hours. Which is only about 30 minutes more than HP's and Dell's with 6 cell batteries on 15.4" screens get.

The only way you're going to get between 5 and 6 hours of battery life is if you set the screen to the lowest setting and turn wifi and bluetooth off and do some light typing in TextEdit.

It was actual time until it turned off. And yes it was light word processing / adium chatting, with bluetooth off, wifi on. Mainly the tasks I am doing when I am running from battery (ie. in college / café etc.)

The magnetic latch causes as many problems as an actual latch. Haven't you read all of the reports of the plastic around the LCD chipping off because of people having to use force to lift the lid? Or how about the plastic/rubber on the "top case"/wrist rest that gets broken due to the force of the magnetic latch? Most Windows PCs don't even have latches any more. They just close. My HP doesn't have a latch.

Yes and as repair guy of supposedly superior notebook brands Dell and IBM I have lost any illusions about those brands and their build quality. Mechanical hatches were one of the common faults. So were faulty optical drives.

Slot loading drive? That is a NEGATIVE. On most Windows PCs, a drive replacement consists of taking a single screw out and sliding the drive out. They also cost around $50-$60. On a Mac, you have to perform surgery and rip the entire system apart and put in a part that costs upwards of $200. Or you have to get it professionally repaired for $275 or more.

Again, the battery timer is NOT accurate. Real world will be around 4 hours of battery life. Which is hardly any more than what most 6 cell battery based notebooks get.

Apple doesn't build their notebooks either. They contract the same people that most other companies use as well, like Asus and Quanta.

I am aware of that. And despite that I still prefer the comfort of slot-in optical drive. If my optical drive gets faulty, I'll have it repaired under warranty (planning to buy AppleCare anyway). And from my experience most of the optical drives fails within first year.

Added value?

Such as?

There isn't anything that OS X does that Windows can't do. Sure, iLife is a nice bundle. But, aside from iTunes and iPhoto, how often do you use the built-in applications?

I've used iDVD ONCE. I've only opened iMovie to see what it looks like. Garage Band I have played with maybe three times.

The design of the MacBook is nice, but it's offset by awful build quality and the fact that it can simply start to come apart at several points. Plus the system can crack at multiple points because of heat and an extremely poor cooling system. Then theres discoloration, chipping plastic, etc.

Once again, the battery life is not that great.

"Added value" comes from getting your moneys worth. For the price, the MacBook should at least come with 2GB of RAM, 160GB HDD, DVD writer standard, and a dedicated GPU.

And I am using iMovie and iPhoto and iDVD regularly. Added value for me means the things mentioned in my post + the Mac philosophy. I don't want to care about drivers any more (I have had that enough from win 3.11 to vista), I want periferals to work after they are connected.
For example Creative Live External, for XP there are working drivers, for Vista there are half working drivers (only stereo), in Leopard I just connect it and it works. So does my camera and videocamera, printer and other periferals I am using on regular basis.

Csmitte
Feb 23, 2008, 05:19 PM
wait couple weeks not months and you might find a new macbook pro with a completely new redesign (my speculation) with other goodies

My speculation is I think all you guys who talk about new MBP's bumped your heads.:p

Maagus
Feb 23, 2008, 05:21 PM
I don't think I made myself clear enough, so I'll try approaching from a different angle. I fully appreciate that different users have different requirements; I have lost count of how many computers I have specced & built for myself, my family, friends & even on contract. Where Apple machines dismally fail wrt this respect is that they offer virtually no choices of hardware & whatever choice you go for you know that you will be paying far too much for it. You may not need a fast processor, but if you buy an Apple you will be forced to get one & also be forced to pay too much for it. Why pay such a premium for something you don't need?

Because I do not pay for HW spec, I pay for the value that it has for me above other notebook brands. Except the features I mentioned, I started liking better the philosophy that something works and I don't have to care about that much and that is something I am willing to pay for, it saves me time.

G.I. Joe
Feb 23, 2008, 05:32 PM
...


Your post may be a controversial one even more on this forum community. But in my opinion a sensible post. Worth reading it.

HLdan
Feb 23, 2008, 05:48 PM
Price should always be a consideration. It is absolutely ridiculous that Apple gets away with selling a system for around $1400 after taxes that only includes the worst of the worst GPU and 1GB of memory, when those selling for $400-$500 less have twice the HDD space, 2-3x as much memory, DVD writers that not even the $1100 Mac includes, similar battery life, bigger screens, better build quality, etc.



While I do agree with some of your argument especially in terms of the lower end Macbook not having a Superdrive but for the love of pete name one notebook that cost less and has more features than the Macbook that has better build quality. Name just one.

Shackler
Feb 23, 2008, 05:56 PM
My speculation is I think all you guys who talk about new MBP's bumped your heads.:p

So true. most sensible post yet. week after week they tell ppl to wait just one more week for updates...im glad i didnt hold my breath.

While I do agree with some of your argument especially in terms of the lower end Macbook not having a Superdrive but for the love of pete name one notebook that cost less and has more features than the Macbook that has better build quality. Name just one.

better build quality is relative. everyone has different opinions and experiences with computers. as much as you probably dont agree with my post, this very agrument is proof of that.

DaveF
Feb 23, 2008, 06:00 PM
Price should always be a consideration. It is absolutely ridiculous that Apple gets away with selling a system for around $1400 after taxes that only includes the worst of the worst GPU and 1GB of memory, when those selling for $400-$500 less have twice the HDD space, 2-3x as much memory, DVD writers that not even the $1100 Mac includes, similar battery life, bigger screens, better build quality, etc. No one said it wasn't a consideration, just not always the most important consideration. Your proposed PC could be free, but it still wouldn't run OS X. And if running OS X is a purchase requirement, then price difference is secondary. You seem unwilling to understand that some people have different buying priorities than you.

Put another way, if you can sell us your cheaper computer running OS X, then you'll have a lot of interest. People love getting what they want for less. How about it?

ruinfx
Feb 23, 2008, 06:02 PM
While I do agree with some of your argument especially in terms of the lower end Macbook not having a Superdrive but for the love of pete name one notebook that cost less and has more features than the Macbook that has better build quality. Name just one.

i just went over to lenovo and specd out a 14inch t61. id argue the thinkpad has at least equal if not better build quality.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9745/t61ya6.jpg

that gets you:

Intel® Core™ 2 Duo processor T7500 (2.2GHz 800MHz 4MBL2)[1]
Genuine Windows XP Professional[12]
14.1 WXGA TFT
Intel GMA X3100 GM965
2 GB PC2-5300 DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM)
UltraNav (TrackPoint and TouchPad)
250 GB Hard Disk Drive, 5400rpm[4]
DVD Recordable 8x Max Dual Layer, Ultrabay Slim[5]
ThinkPad 11a/b/g Wi-Fi wireless LAN Mini-PCIe US/EMEA/LA/ANZ[10]
6 cell Li-Ion Battery[60]
7658: 1 Year Depot Warranty - Express

same price as a stock 2.2 white book

kashik
Feb 23, 2008, 06:06 PM
Well I've been waiting since December for Apple to update their MBP line to specs that more closely mirror its price tag. It is getting harder and harder each day to wait for this. At this point, without a price drop, it no longer makes sense to pay $2000 for a outdated machine.

I was looking forward to switching to a Mac notebook but, as before, they seem unable to satisfy (some) customer needs beyond a given time after release.

It's for this reason that I'm leaning towards convincing the OP to go with something other than an Apple product (I'm not so sure about Dell's quality).

HLdan
Feb 23, 2008, 06:31 PM
i just went over to lenovo and specd out a 14inch t61. id argue the thinkpad has at least equal if not better build quality.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9745/t61ya6.jpg

that gets you:

Intel® Core™ 2 Duo processor T7500 (2.2GHz 800MHz 4MBL2)[1]
Genuine Windows XP Professional[12]
14.1 WXGA TFT
Intel GMA X3100 GM965
2 GB PC2-5300 DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM)
UltraNav (TrackPoint and TouchPad)
250 GB Hard Disk Drive, 5400rpm[4]
DVD Recordable 8x Max Dual Layer, Ultrabay Slim[5]
ThinkPad 11a/b/g Wi-Fi wireless LAN Mini-PCIe US/EMEA/LA/ANZ[10]
6 cell Li-Ion Battery[60]
7658: 1 Year Depot Warranty - Express

same price as a stock 2.2 white book

Meh that's nice however I have been to Office Depot and they sell Lenovos for around $1000 and the plastics are quite cheap and creaky. This is not to say that all Lenovo's are built cheaply because from what I have heard not all of them are however I can't see or touch or feel the Lenovo you are referring to so your argument is moot.

By now you should know that Dell has made quite a bit of money by selling sight unseen and then when people receive it they are less then excited to find out that they have poor build quality. Thank goodness for best buy or I would never know how poorly built the Dell XPS 1530 is.
You can easily go into a Best Buy, Fry's or an Apple store and touch and feel Apple's machines and I beg to differ that anyone would say that Apple's notebooks have poor fit and finish.

cohibadad
Feb 23, 2008, 06:31 PM
The difference between OS X and Windows is that few bother to write malware for OS X because so few people use it.

I'd like to hear someone actually explain this comment with more than just "well it sounds logical" but you can't because it's not true. Don't believe everything you read on the internet :p

ruinfx
Feb 23, 2008, 06:49 PM
Meh that's nice however I have been to Office Depot and they sell Lenovos for around $1000 and the plastics are quite cheap and creaky. This is not to say that all Lenovo's are built cheaply because from what I have heard not all of them are however I can't see or touch or feel the Lenovo you are referring to so your argument is moot.

By now you should know that Dell has made quite a bit of money by selling sight unseen and then when people receive it they are less then excited to find out that they have poor build quality. Thank goodness for best buy or I would never know how poorly built the Dell XPS 1530 is.
You can easily go into a Best Buy, Fry's or an Apple store and touch and feel Apple's machines and I beg to differ that anyone would say that Apple's notebooks have poor fit and finish.

how is my argument moot just because you cant touch or feel it? thinkpads are not only well built, but you asked for a laptop that could compete with the macbook feature and price wise and i gave you one. just because i produced a laptop that had better specs for the same price doesnt mean you get to write it off because you cant go to a store and feel it. i found what you asked for, deal with it.

deputy_doofy
Feb 23, 2008, 06:58 PM
In a previous post in this thread, I already pointed out published vulnerabilities and a rootkit. Macs are being targeted with the market share they have already. Users with deputy_doofy's delusions of invincibility are only insuring that they'll never even know if their machine is infected.

Apparently, I have delusions of invincibility. All you people with your stories of rootkits and viruses are telling just that - stories. I know how to run my utilities and make sure that all threads running are legit threads. Therefore, I would know if something was running that should not be. I also don't install things blindly. I understand the concept of trojans and how dangerous they can be, regardless of OS. Once again, people are pointing out a "low" marketshare of up to 6%, but I stress that Apple has been selling increasing millions of computers every year. Supposedly, Mac users have a higher purse to steal, or that's the thought anyway by the PC world. Why hasn't one PC hacker/virus writer taken the time to attack the multi-millions of Macs in the world to steal those stupid Mac user's bank accounts, since Mac users are smug about security? Your arguments are running dry.

heatmiser
Feb 23, 2008, 07:01 PM
I'd like to hear someone actually explain this comment with more than just "well it sounds logical"

Hey, you don't have to believe it if you don't want to. If you'd prefer to think OS X is ignored by spyware because it's impervious to spyware, go ahead. Lots of folks here still believe a Macbook is something other than a budget PC with an Apple logo and a TPM chip.

deputy_doofy
Feb 23, 2008, 07:09 PM
Hey, you don't have to believe it if you don't want to. If you'd prefer to think OS X is ignored by spyware because it's impervious to spyware, go ahead. Lots of folks here still believe a Macbook is something other than a budget PC with an Apple logo and a TPM chip.

Spyware is only possible via a trojan at this point and time. So far, NOBODY has been successful at self-propagation. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if that awful day comes where it's possible, I'll load up with the Mac Slomin shield. Until then, my security streak has been untouched on Mac OS 10.x since 2001.

HLdan
Feb 23, 2008, 07:35 PM
how is my argument moot just because you cant touch or feel it? thinkpads are not only well built, but you asked for a laptop that could compete with the macbook feature and price wise and i gave you one. just because i produced a laptop that had better specs for the same price doesnt mean you get to write it off because you cant go to a store and feel it. i found what you asked for, deal with it.

LOL, deal with it...what a funky attitude. I don't have to deal with it you know why? It doesn't run OS X. You deal with that!
I still don't see why Windows users visit this forum? They seem to want to convince a Mac forum to go the Windows way, it ain't gonna happen.

murc585
Feb 23, 2008, 07:46 PM
It all comes down to personal preference. Obviously you will pay more for a mac, you just have to weigh the pros and cons. In my personal experience, Macs have been better laptops for my needs, OSX is a perfect laptop environment, and when **** hits the fan, it's nice to know you have AppleCare since laptops go through hell.

My PC with Vista has been a pleasure, and havn't really had any major issue, but IMO when it comes to a laptop, no thank you.

ruinfx
Feb 23, 2008, 08:14 PM
LOL, deal with it...what a funky attitude. I don't have to deal with it you know why? It doesn't run OS X. You deal with that!
I still don't see why Windows users visit this forum? They seem to want to convince a Mac forum to go the Windows way, it ain't gonna happen.

im a windows user that is waiting to buy a new MBP. in the mean time i will straighten out as many delusional fanboys as i can.

HLdan
Feb 23, 2008, 09:27 PM
im a windows user that is waiting to buy a new MBP. in the mean time i will straighten out as many delusional fanboys as i can.

I would highly recommend being cool with that word "fanboy" it's not only unappreciated by this forum and the moderators don't accept it. If you think I'm kidding try my bluff and your postings will be deleted.
Also you've done nothing but speak against Macs and your buying one? Yeah right.:rolleyes: You're just here to wreak havoc on a Mac forum because Windows forums never have anything interesting to talk about.

ruinfx
Feb 23, 2008, 09:50 PM
I would highly recommend being cool with that word "fanboy" it's not only unappreciated by this forum and the moderators don't accept it. If you think I'm kidding try my bluff and your postings will be deleted.
Also you've done nothing but speak against Macs and your buying one? Yeah right.:rolleyes: You're just here to wreak havoc on a Mac forum because Windows forums never have anything interesting to talk about.

if you think just because this is a mac forum that you can make demonstrably false statements and have nobody call you out on it i think you are delusional. i cant help it that you make it so easy for me to call you out on your bs.

the fact is that in the end you can buy a windows laptop that will have better specs than a macbook for the same price. thats not up for debate. so what it comes down to in the end, like you mentioned, is getting better specs and running windows or running OS X (not to say the hardware is bad just that you could have more for your money elsewhere). this is a personal preference that everyone will feel differently about it.

now there are some that price is the deciding factor, and others that can afford the mac and are willing to pay extra for OS X. to me most of these threads just seem to be people that have the money to buy a mac but come here to have other apple owners help justify spending the extra money to get the macbook when they could get a windows laptop with better specs (not that there is anything wrong with that). in the end thats what it comes down to and just because this is a mac forum doesnt mean that people cant try and persuade the OP to buy the windows laptop. you dont like that then you dont have to read my posts.

for the record i think the quote that comes to mind is "i dont hate macs, just people like you that own them". i will hopefully be buying a new MBP when they come out, and i can buy a mac and still defend windows from silly people like you. what a crazy world.

cohibadad
Feb 23, 2008, 09:58 PM
Hey, you don't have to believe it if you don't want to. If you'd prefer to think OS X is ignored by spyware because it's impervious to spyware, go ahead. Lots of folks here still believe a Macbook is something other than a budget PC with an Apple logo and a TPM chip.

wow. you came up with a more convincing argument than I would have imagined. touche.

Frozonecold
Feb 23, 2008, 10:02 PM
WOW. Children, why can't we all play nice?

delphi ote
Feb 23, 2008, 10:05 PM
I know how to run my utilities and make sure that all threads running are legit threads. Therefore, I would know if something was running that should not be.
You have no idea what a rootkit is.

heatmiser
Feb 23, 2008, 10:06 PM
Spyware is only possible via a trojan at this point and time. So far, NOBODY has been successful at self-propagation. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if that awful day comes where it's possible, I'll load up with the Mac Slomin shield. Until then, my security streak has been untouched on Mac OS 10.x since 2001.

Hey, I agree. Right now, I enjoy using Tiger over XP simply because Tiger doesn't require an AV program. We were just debating over how much that had to do with Apple's smaller market share. I'm in the camp that figures that's the lion's share of why OS X is unaffected. The other guy's in the camp of OS X being an inherently better operating system.

thejadedmonkey
Feb 23, 2008, 10:07 PM
WOW. Children, why can't we all play nice?

Every now and again, I pop in here to see how it's going.. Wow what happened? I agree with Frozonecold. Can't we all smoke some hookah and get along?

deputy_doofy
Feb 23, 2008, 10:34 PM
You have no idea what a rootkit is.

We can argue all day long. I know what a rootkit is on a basic level and I can wikipedia it if I want/need details. Unless I install the rootkit myself, I still fail to see how I become infected with it. There have been ZERO successful, self-propagating, self-installing Mac viruses to date. Does that mean it can't happen? No. I'm not naive enough to believe it's impossible. I think we're safer since Unix has more security and history behind it than Windows. I also don't believe it has to do with "small" marketshare because a SMART criminal would have gone after the DUMB Mac users who surf banks without any anti-malware software.

When true viruses show up, I'll be downloading Avast for Mac (now beta). Until then, I'm not worried.

mosx
Feb 23, 2008, 11:11 PM
It was actual time until it turned off. And yes it was light word processing / adium chatting, with bluetooth off, wifi on. Mainly the tasks I am doing when I am running from battery (ie. in college / café etc.)

So, somehow your MacBook lasts about an hour longer than the average MacBook in the same situation and more than 2 hours longer than Apple's own estimates. Right.

I've had 3 different MacBook batteries (gotta love that Apple build quality!) so far and none of them have been able to last that long in real world use.

The current battery has 3 cycles on it. The capacity is currently at 5404 and in a real world situation with reasonable settings (screen below 50% is unusable), no bluetooth, wifi, chatting, and light browsing I'll get 4 hours max. If I drop the screen down to the lowest I can get 4.5 hours.

Yes and as repair guy of supposedly superior notebook brands Dell and IBM I have lost any illusions about those brands and their build quality. Mechanical hatches were one of the common faults. So were faulty optical drives.

Considering that the trend among Windows PC manufacturers in the last couple of years has been to not use a latch, it's somewhat difficult to believe you. On the one PC I did have that had a latch, it was a very simple device. It would be next to impossible to break that latch. It would have taken real physical abuse to break it.

Where my MacBook has received no physical abuse and very little physical movement and both have essentially fallen apart.

Oh, and you realize that the Matsushita (Panasonic) drives in the MacBooks are even worse quality than the LG and TSSTCorp drives used in HPs and others, right?

I am aware of that. And despite that I still prefer the comfort of slot-in optical drive. If my optical drive gets faulty, I'll have it repaired under warranty (planning to buy AppleCare anyway). And from my experience most of the optical drives fails within first year.

Actually, most optical drives can last for thousands of hours of use.

But you want to know what its like to have your optical drive replaced by Apple? I'll tell you, because my first MacBook's "SuperDrive" died.

The drive couldn't write DVD media (regardless of manufacturer) above 2x reliably. It also had small problems mounting discs. Also, the case was discoloring and the plastic on the hinge was starting to bubble and come apart due to heat (great build quality again!). So I sent it in for repair. What happened? Optical drive was ignored. Entire outer case was scratched to all hell and back. The "top case" that was discoloring was replaced, but the mouse button no longer functioned properly. System was sent BACK out to Apple. Optical drive had a "re-alignment" performed on it that rendered it unable to both read and burn discs. The outer casing was replaced and scratched even worse than the original case was. The mouse button still didn't work. Apple replaced the system.

The optical drive in my HP was bad out of the box. What did HP do? Have me send it back? Send it in for repair? Both of those options would have left me without a computer for a week or so. What did they do? The day after I called, I had a new drive at my door step. It literally took less than a minute to swap the drive out, then another 2 to schedule the FedEx pickup to send the prepaid package back to them containing the dead drive.

The MacBook that Apple replaced my old one with also had build quality issues. The battery started to warp and the case became unsealed around the edges. So I sent it out for repair. It came back with a new "top case" that was also not sealed, the system was scratched up to all hell again, it was weak (being able to be pushed into breaking points at several points) and it was dirty! So it went back out for repair. I was informed that the case had to be replaced twice to get it done right, the person at Apple dealing with my case had to inform them how to properly reseal and put the case on so it wouldn't get scratched. The current case is not "perfect" but at least its finally sealed and its not so soft that I could break it by putting it in a case with any kind of pressure.

Not only does Apple sell you a poorly built computer, but their repair depots will beat the living crap out of it while "repairing" it and then deny they did anything, so you have to hope you had the sense to take pictures and film it before it was shipped out!

And I am using iMovie and iPhoto and iDVD regularly. Added value for me means the things mentioned in my post + the Mac philosophy.

iMovie and iDVD can easily be substituted by many other pieces of software in Windows, and iPhoto is easily equaled by Picassa.

What "Mac philosophy" is that? "It just works"? Funny how I've had OS X crash more times (Tiger and Leopard, two different systems) than Windows in 17 years. Windows hasn't even crashed ONCE on either Mac.

I don't want to care about drivers any more (I have had that enough from win 3.11 to vista)

You act as if drivers are a bad thing. Drivers are a good thing, especially when it comes to videocards. People even remotely interested in PC gaming can tell you what kinds of performance enhancements and features you get from upgrading drivers. Yet with OS X you have to cross your fingers every time there is a point revision and hope Apple updated that drivers.

For example Creative Live External, for XP there are working drivers, for Vista there are half working drivers (only stereo), in Leopard I just connect it and it works. So does my camera and videocamera, printer and other periferals I am using on regular basis.

You can blame Creative for that. They're known for terrible support.

Anyway, drivers in Windows add all kinds of features. Let's look at my HP Photosmart printer as an example. In OS X I connect it and it "works", but none of the special features of it work. Unless I download and install a couple hundred megabytes worth of drivers. In Windows, the standard install brings all of its functionality. Automatic transferring of images back and forth from the printer's internal drive, the special buttons on it that have different features, the built-in editing software, etc. In OS X, none of that works unless I (gasp) install drivers. Same goes for my all-in-one. OS X can't even access the scanner on it unless I download drivers for it, despite having gigabytes worth of pre-installed printer drivers.

Your post may be a controversial one even more on this forum community. But in my opinion a sensible post. Worth reading it.

Thank you. I'm not an Apple hater. I do believe that my faith in Apple during the PowerPC days, before the iPod reached mass popularity it has now, was well placed. Systems then were generally well built (well, except some known iBook motherboard issues) and Apple took care of their customers. Now is not the case. They overcharge, their build quality has dropped dramatically, their customer support is no longer 24/7 and their repair depots do not properly repair or even handle systems with respect.

I just want people to be able to make an informed decision, free of the wool that some Apple fans try to pull over peoples eyes.

While I do agree with some of your argument especially in terms of the lower end Macbook not having a Superdrive but for the love of pete name one notebook that cost less and has more features than the Macbook that has better build quality. Name just one.

My HP dv6500t (now 6700t) has better build quality and it is cheaper. Much cheaper. The plastic along the bottom that covers the components is stronger and thicker than the plastic on the MacBook. It has a proper cooling system! The plastic lid/LCD is actually far less "bendy" than the MacBook is, and the plastic feels strong (yes I am feeling it right now). The "top case" with the palm rests is made out of a soft, but NOT flexible, plastic. It will NOT discolor.

There are no seems that can simply fall apart like the MacBook. The lid does not have a magnetic connector that puts pressure on the case, casing cracking and falling apart. The system has a proper cooling system with many open vents, so it's not possible for it to crack due to heating issues like the MacBook. Theres also not a single spot on it that can discolor.

If I hold both with one hand each, the MacBook's lid has a noticeable flex under my grip. The HP has no flex and feels completely sturdy. I can pick it up from any angle and not worry about any kind of pressure points. With the Mac, I fear picking it up from the front, because I don't want to two "feet" to push down on the case even more and wear down the "top case" and cause it to crack and come apart like it has for far too many people.

As for features.. well, my system was about $1,000. Core 2 Duo 2GHz (Santa Rosa), 2GB of RAM, 160GB HDD, GeForce 8400M GS, finger print reader, HDMI output, a LightScribe capable DVD writer (with the option to buy an HP blu-ray or HD DVD drive later on), a full size ExpressCard slot, a memory card reader, Media Center remote control that fits in the ExpressCard slot, and a 1.3MP camera. For under $1,000 you can get basically the same thing, but you'll need to up the RAM to 2GB yourself. Thats with a design that actually LOOKS better than the MacBook and has a bigger screen. Oh, it has S-Video and VGA outputs too! No expensive adapters needed. I also get 3.5 hours of real world battery life. Thats with the screen set to the lowest setting, but thats equal to the MacBook screen at about 50%.

If you go with the AMD system, you can get the same specs for about $850. Or you can go to $960 or so and get the same build quality, but a faster AMD processor, 3GB of RAM, 250GB HDD, GeForce, etc.

Your proposed PC could be free, but it still wouldn't run OS X. And if running OS X is a purchase requirement, then price difference is secondary. You seem unwilling to understand that some people have different buying priorities than you.

Put another way, if you can sell us your cheaper computer running OS X, then you'll have a lot of interest. People love getting what they want for less. How about it?

I don't see why running OS X would be a requirement.

OS X can be considered "nicer", but Windows gives you more flexibility in both software choices and hardware choices AND hardware capabilities. When was the last time an Apple computer came with a memory card reader, HDMI output, finger print reader, user replaceable drives, etc?

You can easily go into a Best Buy, Fry's or an Apple store and touch and feel Apple's machines and I beg to differ that anyone would say that Apple's notebooks have poor fit and finish.

Apple's computers are designed to give a great first impression. Their flaws do not show up until well after you have purchased and can no longer return them. Look at the MacBook's issues with case cracking (both from heat and other issues, like the magnetic "latch") and discoloration. The MacBook Pro has issues with warping from heat and becoming unsealed, as well as being extremely easy to dent and scratch.

In my personal experience, Macs have been better laptops for my needs, OSX is a perfect laptop environment, and when **** hits the fan, it's nice to know you have AppleCare since laptops go through hell.

Until your system comes back from Flextronics in worse shape then it went out, and you have to provide proof to Apple (such as videos and pictures like me) that your system was NOT beat up and falling apart when you shipped it out to them. Oh, and you have to send it in multiple times for them to finally fix the problem too, along with all of the issues they cause themselves.

murc585
Feb 23, 2008, 11:16 PM
Until your system comes back from Flextronics in worse shape then it went out, and you have to provide proof to Apple (such as videos and pictures like me) that your system was NOT beat up and falling apart when you shipped it out to them. Oh, and you have to send it in multiple times for them to finally fix the problem too, along with all of the issues they cause themselves.

what are you talking about? you can just go to your local apple retailer and they will fix your computer for free on the spot, it's amazing, ready to go the next day.

I hear people talking about their battery cycles, how do you find that out?

heatmiser
Feb 23, 2008, 11:28 PM
I hear people talking about their battery cycles, how do you find that out?

Download the iStat pro widget (google it).

Animalk
Feb 23, 2008, 11:47 PM
Download the iStat pro widget (google it).

:apple: button in top menu-> click About This Mac -> click More Info... -> select Power in left hand side list -> scroll to bottom of right frame to cycles

Lots of childish bigotry in this thread. I rarely see this on this board but this is quite out of hand. :(

HLdan
Feb 24, 2008, 12:58 AM
the fact is that in the end you can buy a windows laptop that will have better specs than a macbook for the same price. thats not up for debate.

to me most of these threads just seem to be people that have the money to buy a mac but come here to have other apple owners help justify spending the extra money to get the macbook when they could get a windows laptop with better specs (not that there is anything wrong with that). in the end thats what it comes down to and just because this is a mac forum doesnt mean that people cant try and persuade the OP to buy the windows laptop. you dont like that then you dont have to read my posts.

for the record i think the quote that comes to mind is "i dont hate macs, just people like you that own them". i will hopefully be buying a new MBP when they come out, and i can buy a mac and still defend windows from silly people like you. what a crazy world.

Then why in hell are you contradicting yourself? You are evangelizing Windows laptops as a better value but then you say you are buying a MBP. Something's wrong with you and I am done with this discussion with someone that tries to create a compelling argument but contradicts themselves in the end.

I'll save my arguments for someone that's worth it. :p

mosx
Feb 24, 2008, 01:07 AM
what are you talking about? you can just go to your local apple retailer and they will fix your computer for free on the spot, it's amazing, ready to go the next day.

I hear people talking about their battery cycles, how do you find that out?

Well, I talked to Nate Doss about that when he was handling my case. Hes part of Apple's "Executive Customer Relations".

He said that Apple Authorized Repair Centers and even Apple Stores can ONLY repair mobile systems if they are "mobile certified".

Now when you're like me and live in an area where no place like that exists, you have to send your system in.

murc585
Feb 24, 2008, 01:16 AM
Well, I talked to Nate Doss about that when he was handling my case. Hes part of Apple's "Executive Customer Relations".

He said that Apple Authorized Repair Centers and even Apple Stores can ONLY repair mobile systems if they are "mobile certified".

Now when you're like me and live in an area where no place like that exists, you have to send your system in.

ah, thats no fun then. I only have a 10 minute drive.

ajx22
Feb 24, 2008, 01:31 AM
:eek: Wow - this thread went to H3LL fast.

Crap like this simply should be closed as they serve no purpose but to allow children to bicker...

Blue Velvet
Feb 24, 2008, 03:57 AM
Thread closed due to dead horses piling up without enough whips to pass around.