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flybynite
Oct 23, 2003, 11:25 PM
What's the word on Panther's FontBook font management doftware? Does it have as many features as Suitcase and make it redundant?

Does it conflict with Suitcase (or ATM in Classic) in any way?

zim
Oct 23, 2003, 11:27 PM
From what I have seen, FontBook rocks! I will be happy to ditch my copy of suitcase, it has give me nothing but problems since day 1.

delta.hex
Oct 24, 2003, 12:00 AM
I wanna know too. I continued with Suitcase because it was still working. But if I can get rid of it, boot up time will be faster.

pjtro2
Oct 24, 2003, 12:56 AM
I'm not sure if it something that I'm doing... But I have been using Suitcase for a couple of years now... I begrudgingly switched from ATM when i changed over from 9 to X, so I was elated when I saw font book was added to Panther.

Font Book looks and feels like it should be as simple as anything, but after much testing a fiddling around, it seems the activation/deactivation controls are useless, I've tested it in Illustrator, and regardless of if I have them on or off, they still appear in the font dialogue box. (Which is killing me, as I put alot of fonts on my system....) I hope it is just some compatibility issues that will be addresses asap... but until then, don't hold your breath. I hope for everyones sake it is something I'm overlooking and it works fine!

pjtro2
Oct 25, 2003, 06:04 AM
Has anyone played around with font book yet?
From what I can tell, it MOVES your fonts from the selected location, and dumps them all together in either the main font library folder, or your home directory font folder (there's the option for either and for os 9 too) -- this is a complete nightmare, I have all my fonts neatly in their own folders, and I often have to send them off with design jobs. Suitcase lets you specify where they are activated from... Why doesn't FB have this?!

Oh Apple hear my plea....

Bear
Oct 25, 2003, 07:27 AM
...
Oh Apple hear my plea.... Apple has a feedback button on the Mac OS X page (as well as pages for the iApps). If you have an enhancement suggestion, use the form and submit it. It's the best way to make sure Apple here's your plea. And if multiple people suggest something (in their own words) it has a better chance of being fixed.

Nobs
Oct 25, 2003, 08:59 AM
I was really looking forward to dumping Suitcase in favor of Fontbook. I spent alot of time yesterday trying to get things going with FB last last night and early this morning.

Good: It is easler to use than Suitcase. I've always hated suitcase and it has caused my Mac to slow down and crash on several occasions ever since I put it on.

Bad: Font Book is not as robust as I would have liked. I don't understand the collections at all. I think you should be able to create collections and then be able to disable them to turn the font on. I don't need every one of my hundreds of fonts to load up everytime I start my mac. I want to create different collections for different jobs, but Font Book does not seem to behave as you would intuitively think it should.

That being said, with Suitcase off my system, it is running a lot better. Although there are some other issues with Safari and some other Apple apps, that seem to have corrected themselves with a restart.

I really hope Apple pays attention to this part of their system and comes out with upgrades on a regular basis. I have always hated third party products handling my fonts. Makes sense to have Apple take care of them for you.

HEY APPLE! Make Font Book better! PLEASE!

TheAnswer
Oct 26, 2003, 10:07 PM
My initial opinion of Font Book was not favorable...because I grew impatient and pulled a force quit after I tried to add all the fonts in my collection into Font Book using the Add Fonts... command.

After a force quit and some cleaning up of my hard drive...I went to sleep pretty disappointed (since Font Book was one of the big reasons I upgraded).

I manually installed some fonts for a job I was working on...then opened up Font Book and played around. They appeared and disappeared in Adobe Illustrator as I clicked the Enable/Disable option.

Manually installing Fonts and then using Font Book is also better as I tend to keep my Fonts organized in folders...something I noticed the Add Fonts... command didn't do.

Now I wonder...just how many fonts can I add and still have Font Book work effectively?

iEric
Oct 26, 2003, 10:32 PM
I dont even know what Font Book does..to me, it just shows me all the fonts and stuff. Is that all it does??

groovebuster
Oct 26, 2003, 11:32 PM
I tested Fontbook at the weekend and I was so thrilled that there would be build-in font management in Panther. But it is just a POS! It might be handy for amateur users, but not for professionals. Apple should be ashamed to put something so buggy and unfinished in a system like Panther (which overall is amazing)! Not only that all the fonts are copied to the fonts folder(s) and are always active, no matter what (very nice when you are having a few hundred fonts on your machine). It also just doesn't recognize some fonts. You install them but they never show up! It's a nice try, not more...

A 2 out of 10!

Welcome back suitcase!

groovebuster

e-coli
Oct 27, 2003, 12:20 AM
Gosh, how disappointing. I bought Panther just because of FontBook. Now I might not install it. I might stay with Jaguar. Bummer. :(

pjtro2
Oct 27, 2003, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by groovebuster
I tested Fontbook at the weekend and I was so thrilled that there would be build-in font management in Panther. But it is just a POS! It might be handy for amateur users, but not for professionals. Apple should be ashamed to put something so buggy and unfinished in a system like Panther (which overall is amazing)! Not only that all the fonts are copied to the fonts folder(s) and are always active, no matter what (very nice when you are having a few hundred fonts on your machine). It also just doesn't recognize some fonts. You install them but they never show up! It's a nice try, not more...

GB - Thanks for preserving my sanity, I seriously thought it was just me and FB was just so simple that I was overlooking something.
As you said, for a select market, it will suffice, but as a designer who relies heavily on font management, it is completely useless... Even ATM deluxe back in OS 9 could manage fonts from specified folders and not MOVE them to a system one. It would be bearable even if they just copied the fonts from their original location (and left my originals where they belong). Thank god I had a back up, it would have taken me DAYS to re-sort all my fonts back in to their respetive folders.
Two other points - There is clearly "activate & Deactivate" buttons on there, but they are simply not functioning.

Apple has a HUGE following within the design community and I daresay a large proportion of their sales derive from it.

I'm quite surprised Apple released this in it's current state, I mean it is a GREAT start, It is straightforward, showcases your fonts with 3 preview options, and most importantly, there is no visual intereference with a nasty interface. (Hello Suitcase) it has such potential and I look forward to a fully functioning version that professionals can utilize.

Someone mentioned in a previous post a feedback link for FontBook. Does anyone have the actual link? I can't seem to find it.

Thanks!

Macette
Oct 28, 2003, 11:26 PM
i know this is slightly off-topic, but since a lot of people in this thread are probably designers, BE CAREFUL with installing Panther. My Epson scanner is suddenly almost totally unusable (because the Epson branded scanner software doesn't run under Panther), and I'm forced to use Image Capture, which as any designer would know is not versatile enough for REAL scanning.

Just thought I'd mention it. I too am disappointed with FontBook.

blackbones
Oct 29, 2003, 12:16 AM
I too was looking forward to Font Book as i have never liked Suitcase... dont even get me started on FontResrve. But i must say that it is almost useless.

Being a user of Suitcase I promptly loaded all of my fonts up on Font Book (about 2500 fonts, alot of fonts but suitcase never seemed to mind). After waiting a good 45 mins for all of them too load up i began to fiddle around with it and found that, as was said before, there was no rhyme or reason to what fonts got activated in what program. Further more becuase of the amount of fonts i had loaded on FontBook the program itself became very sluggish. Even with only 10 or so of my fonts activated the program was a slow poke. Finally i decided to quit but it locked up my machine. I restarted and found that after my system loaded, it sat on my desktop with no finder for at least 15 mins before I was able to use it. Promptly went in, took out all the fonts i loaded and bam, back to normal.

I will most likely be going back to Suitcase until they figure this thing out. Oh ATM how i miss thee.

jamall
Oct 29, 2003, 06:59 AM
Ha, same thing happened to me. I loaded about 4000 fonts and my machine slowed to a crawl. Startup took about 20 mins, launching any apps took about 15 minutes, and Fontbook would lock up when I tried to remove them. In the end I reinstalled Panther. Is Suitcase still fully compatible, coz that's what I'll be using?

Nobs
Oct 29, 2003, 07:49 AM
Another complaint about FontBook...If you are on a machine with more than one user, and that user logs on, Font Book disables the user and Classic fonts (at least on my machine) for the original user.

This is taken care of with a restart, but what a pain. It should be able to remember from user to user what fonts to load.

I would consider putting Suitcase back on, but I really don't like that app. I have to say at the very least, Suitcase did what you were supposed to do. In many ways, Fontbook doesn't make any sense at all. :(

turk.o
Oct 29, 2003, 11:04 AM
same here. fontbook was a feature i was most looking forward to, but it has turned out to be a complete POS. it screwed up all my font orginazation (i hate all the other font managers so i do it myself) froze up my machine, and even eventually forced me to do a complete reinstall (glad i tested it on my laptop first and didn't give it the chance to f-up my work machine). also, the most simple features don't even work. for instance, i have two different version of caslon (now three with panther) adobe caslon, and caslon 3. they have differnt names and are in different folders, but whenever i try to disable one of them font book disables the other as well! f*n useless!

zero stars! :eek:

i'm waiting at least a year before i even open the damn program again.

t.o

bousozoku
Oct 31, 2003, 01:20 PM
I've been copying font files into the /Library/fonts directory after finding that allowing FontBook to add them meant that it moved them. I was glad to see that it allowed you to select whether the typefaces were to be available to everyone or just the current user.

It seems to have found quite a few font files that I'd forgotten, so I'll retrieve those later, but it really needs to be enhanced. Mind you, the average end user is not going to need to activate typefaces in Illustrator, Freehand, XPress, or InDesign, so it's not quite as big of a deal. Apple knows that third party solutions should remain and they're trying to stay out of that territory by creating a minimal product.

pjtro2
Nov 1, 2003, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by bousozoku
Apple knows that third party solutions should remain and they're trying to stay out of that territory by creating a minimal product.

I don't know if this to be entirely true. Just because Extensis has a product that has had the benefit of time to enhance it to its 11th revision, which IMHO, still has many flaws. There is no reason why Apple cannot and should not address the basic functionality issues that FB currently has. It makes sense that something like font management, which ties closely in with the OS, should be handled by the OS. Given some time, I honestly hope that Apple turn FB into what Suitcase *should* be.

Designers make up a large number of Mac users, (and home users becoming increasingly aware of the variety of fonts available) so it would make sense that Apple handle this. And I don't think the livelihood of third party developers should be a reason to stop a crippled product becoming a first rate one. This isn't the first time Apple have entered the realm of challenging 3rd party developers...

I am really surprised Apple released it in it's current state. I get the feeling, due to the Panther release date it was snatched from project managers in its incomplete state, just to make up their 150 New (and in very small print: imcomplete) Features...
Cant wait for Font Book 2. (or maybe 5)

pixelsmudge
Nov 1, 2003, 09:03 PM
So I did the same thing, copied all my fonts onto into Fontbook which resulted in turning my mac to a snail rather than a panther. Tried deactivating them - which I think deactivated some of the System fonts which doesn't help at all.
Can anyone tell me which basic sytem fonts should be in my system fonts folder and user fonts folder so I can ditch everthing and start again.
Oh yeah, and Font Book crashes when using certain fonts. POS!!!!!
Thanks
:mad:

areyouwishing
Nov 1, 2003, 09:07 PM
My biggest complaint with suitcase was that it remained in the dock, and i don't like a cluttered dock. As far as functionality I think its a great program, auto activation is really convenient.

Font book seems to work ok, its still not everything i need, but it does put all your fonts in one directory, personally i like this cause i can fix all my duplicate font issues that i've had in the past. This may be annoying to some users, and i would understand because im a neat freak myself when it comes to file organization.

All in all though, Im going to keep with font book and see how well it does in a production environment, and then go from there.

pjtro2
Nov 1, 2003, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by pixelsmudge
Oh yeah, and Font Book crashes when using certain fonts. POS!!!!!


That could be due to corrupt fonts. -- Even Suitcase craps its pants when you try to preview a corrupt font. (well at least on my system it does)

bousozoku
Nov 1, 2003, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by pjtro2
That could be due to corrupt fonts. -- Even Suitcase craps its pants when you try to preview a corrupt font. (well at least on my system it does)

At least, Suitcase includes Font Doctor. Hopefully, it works fine.

I was just wondering how many flaws Symantec introduced while they had Suitcase as a product. It seems back in the early days, Suitcase was a good product.

FontBook definitely needs some work just to compete but I'm still trying it to save the money I'd otherwise be spending.

While I was copying font files through Finder, I noticed an interesting 3D effect with the file icons. Perhaps, there's more to the Quartz Compositor in Panther.

DesignerMike
Nov 2, 2003, 09:14 PM
I've upgraded to 10.3. Font Book seemed promising but has been nothing but trouble.

Font activation is flaky. Forget about managing system fonts. No way to view fonts by type (PS, TrueType, etc.). Adding fonts doesn't always work. Fonts appear and disappear from Font Book for no reason. Lots of unexpected quits. Lots of long-spinning beach balls. No auto-activation in Quark or Illustrator.

But MOST irritating is that there's no way in Font Book to preserve your font folders (like if you organize your fonts by project or client) -- Font Book will either MOVE or COPY your fonts into your ~/Library/Fonts folder when added. I can't imagine why any serious graphic artist would use this utility. What was Apple thinking?

That said, I want to go back to Suitcase X1. But since I upgraded to 10.3, Suitcase has been having major problems. Does anyone know if there's a conflict? Can I uninstall Font Book? Should I do so? Suitcase was pretty reliable in 10.2, but no more with Panther. Anyone else having similar issues? Any advice?

bousozoku
Nov 3, 2003, 01:00 AM
My advice is always: when you depend on your machine for your pay, you wait until things have been worked out. Let other people be the testers.

Sure, it's not as much fun, but it's not as much of a headache either.

pixelsmudge
Nov 3, 2003, 07:45 AM
I've been experiencing loads of problems since aqdding some fonts into my User Library fonts folder. When I tried to open Printer Setup Utility, System Preferences User Accounts or iCal I just got spinning death beachballs, and Safari just kept bobing up and down in the dock endlessly without launching or reporting an error message.
Ok I thought, there must be a font in my user library fonts clashing with the system fonts... I decided to take all the fonts that were duplicated in System and User Library out of the User Library to see what would happen. I restarted to find that my apps were up and running properly again but Fontbook had disabled Classic fonts and User fonts. I have tried clicking on enable fonts for both but nothing happens, so now I only have system fonts available.
Any ideas how on earth I get my User Library and Classic fonts available again? Maybe I took something out that I shouldn't have... Can anyone tell me what basic fonts should be in the system and user library and I'll try starting from scratch.
Also, if you add fonts directly to your user library does fontbook automatically know this or do you have to add fonts through fontbook?

DesignerMike
Nov 3, 2003, 10:19 AM
As far as what fonts are needed by OS X and what fonts you can ditch, I found the following from Extensis to be very helpful:

<b>Which fonts are absolutely necessary by Mac OS X?

Mac OS X installs several fonts in the /System/Library/Fonts/ directory right off the bat. Guess what? You can't move these fonts. Nope, there's nothing you can do with them. There are good things about this and there are some bad things as well. The good part is that by not allowing you to muck around in this font folder, the OS is guaranteeing itself that the fonts that it needs are always available. That's a good thing. It's a bad thing if you happen to have a font with the name Helvetica though.</b>

And also...

<b>Font Management and Mac OS X

Here a Font Directory, There a Font Directory, Everywhere a Font Directory
Depending on software installation and the number of users on a particular machine, there are four or more Font folders in Mac OS X. If you don't use a font manager, you may install fonts by copying or dragging font files to any of the standard Font folders in Mac OS X. Depending on which folder the font is in, the font will be available or accessible by different users. The following table outlines the different Fonts folders and the access that each provides.

Type of Use Font Folder Font Description
User ~/Library/Fonts/
The tilde character "~" is used to represent a user's Home. Fonts located in this folder are available to that user. Fonts located here are not available to other users who may log into the same machine.
Mac OS X does not require that any fonts be located in this folder.
Local /Library/Fonts/ Fonts located in this folder are available to all local users of the machine. Only an Admin user can modify the contents of this folder. This is the folder where Apple suggests applications should install shared fonts.
Mac OS X does not require that any fonts be located in this folder.
Network /Network/Library/Fonts/ Fonts located in this folder are shared among all users on a local area network. Typically, this folder is used on a network file server that is controlled by a network administrator.
Mac OS X does not require that any fonts be located in this folder.
System /System/Library/Fonts Fonts located in this folder are required by Mac OS X for system use and displays.
Mac OS X requires these fonts and as such it is not recommended that the contents of this folder should be removed or altered in any manner.
Classic /System Folder/Fonts/ Fonts in this folder are used by the Classic environment. These fonts are available to Mac OS X applications even if the Classic environment is not running. Fonts located outside of this folder are not available to Classic applications.
Mac OS X does not require these fonts but will make them available to OS X applications. Please note that this System Folder should not be confused with the Mac OS X System folder.

You probably have a font in your collection that is named "Helvetica". It's okay, we all do. But guess what? So does Mac OS X's System folder and according to that little tidbit above under no circumstances should you modify the contents of the /System/Library/Fonts/ directory. So what are you going to do with that version of Helvetica that is sitting in your UserName/Library/Fonts/ directory? Fear not, Mac OS X resolves duplicates based on the order of precedence defined for the standard Fonts folders. The order of precedence (from highest to lowest) is outlined below.

1. User Fonts folder (~/Library/Fonts/)
2. Local Fonts folder (/Library/Fonts/)
3. Network Fonts folder (/Network/Library/Fonts/)
4. System Fonts folder (/System/Library/Fonts/)
5. Classic Fonts folder (/System Folder/Fonts/)

But what if youíve got more than one version of Helvetica in your personal font library? You canít have both of them sitting in your User Font folder. Thatís where Suitcase comes in. Below youíll find information on how Suitcase can solve these conflicts and much more.</b>

...Like you, I also ran into problems with fonts, spinning beach balls, etc. All of these occured after I had used Font Book.

I STRONGLY recommend you read the following page from Extensis:

http://www.extensis.com/products/2d.html

After a few attempts, I droppped Font Book like a bad habit. In my opinion it is not equipped to handle the demands of serious and reliable font management for graphic artists. It's not even close.

As for the spinning beach balls, etc... I had good luck using Disk Utility to Repair Disk Permissions. That usually fixed it... but the best thing I did was:

1) Re-install OS X 10.3 (Erase and Install)
2) Remove all fonts from /Library/Fonts
3) DO NOT TOUCH fonts in /System/Library/Fonts
4) DO NOT use Font Book
5) Place your basic "core" fonts in /Library/Fonts (inlcuding, say, PostScript Helvetica, PS Courier, PS Times, PS Symbol and PS Zapf Dingbats if you use them)
6) Get Suitcase X1. Install it and set up your fonts in it.
7) Repair Disk Permissions from time to time
8) If problems persist, go into /System/Library/Preferences, delete the Suitcase .plist file, and the Suitacse Preferences folder. Re-do all your font sets in Suitcase.

I hope SOMETHING above helps!!! Good luck!!!

pixelsmudge
Nov 3, 2003, 07:32 PM
Thanks a million Mike, very helpful! I took everything out of my user library fonts folder, kept just the basic data-fork font suitcases in my sytem folder and installed Suitcase. Will try Fontbook again someday when it actually works.

As for bouzouka's "My advice is always: when you depend on your machine for your pay, you wait until things have been worked out. Let other people be the testers." Give it a rest mate, why don't you just stick your tongue out and say, I told you so! Unless you've got something useful to offer to this thread then please do us all a foavour and keep your "advice" to yourself.

superfastaction
Nov 3, 2003, 08:04 PM
Same... thanks! My first day at a new job and bang... Font Book kicks me in the crotch. ;( I did the same as above and it did the trick. One thing to note: do NOT keep your fonts in the Users/username/Library/Fonts folder, or Font Book will keep an eye on them and mess you up. The rub is, while Suitcase has to be 'open' to function, Font Book doesn't (is it more of a control panel for the os??) so it will create conflicts. I had some really strange things going on...

My suggestion is to create a folder in your Home location and keep your fonts there. Thanks again for the help!!!

scan300
Nov 3, 2003, 09:23 PM
I've had a good look at fontbook, and I've decided to give it a serious go.

Fontbook is different to Suitcase, in that it uses the font folder to load fonts rather than faking the font folder system as all font management software has done in the past.

Fontbook uses the font collections preference files, introduced in Jaguar to disable fonts, but the font itself remains in the fonts folder. If you set your prferences to copy a font when you install a font you can avoid having it removed from your organised collections.

When I first installed my 1600 odd fonts, it activated the whole lot, slowing my layout and illustration software. I quickly selected all the fonts and disabled them. Luckily this doesn't disable all of the required system fonts, as they are protected, but a few necessary ones will need to be re-enabled.

I started to delete the existing sets I didn't require and create new sets of my own. The confusing thing was that my new set was enabled but the fonts in it were disabled. I discovered it was worthwhile to disable all of the sets first. In short, begin by turning off everything.

Then enable the sets you require. There is a pdf with some extra explanation of fontbook on the OSX fontbook page: http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/fontbook/

SOME THINGS TO AVOID: Don't add and/or remove fonts from any of the system or user font folders. This confuses Fontbook.

Don't use Fontbook and Suitcase or FontReserve together.

Don't install fonts procured from the public domain if you want a stable system. Install your fonts from their original disks, to weed out file corruption. Corrupt fonts, and badly encoded fonts are one of the greatest causes of system instability that I come across.

THINGS I LIKE ABOUT FONTBOOK: Full page vertical lists. (Suitcase X splits your font list and your set lists vertically, so you see less of your lists.)

Double click on a font to get a decent preview, without having to install it. (Option to install if you wish to)

Well designed preview pane.

System native software.

No requirement to keep application open.

Ability to turn off many of the preinstalled fonts that came with the system.

Great stability, (though slow) with 1,600 fonts open.

MY DISLIKES:
No auto-activation of fonts. (There is a possibility that applscript could be used to create some of this functionality in the future, but Fontbook is currently not scriptable).

Slow to open, if you have a sizeable collection installed. (Activated or not)

Not intuitive to begin with. (Easy to use once you get it going properly)

Everthing is on by default. (ie all fonts are activated when installed).

Too easy to make your system unstable if you fiddle with your fonts folder after using Fontbook.

bousozoku
Nov 3, 2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by pixelsmudge

...
As for bouzouka's "My advice is always: when you depend on your machine for your pay, you wait until things have been worked out. Let other people be the testers." Give it a rest mate, why don't you just stick your tongue out and say, I told you so! Unless you've got something useful to offer to this thread then please do us all a foavour and keep your "advice" to yourself.

Your tone is unnecessary. It's not a matter of saying I told you so. I adopted early and I'm feeling the pain, but I left one drive with 10.2.8 on it because I know what can happen. I also had to keep people at various companies from becoming early adopters just because of situations like this.