Apple Extending Trademark to Include Hand Held Gaming [Archive]

MacRumors

Feb 10, 2008, 04:59 PM

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Trademork notes (http://www.trademork.com/apple/) that Apple has filed to extend their Apple trademark into new areas, covering: Toys, games and playthings, namely, hand-held units for playing electronic games; hand-held units for playing video games; stand alone video game machines; electronic games other than those adapted for use with television receivers only; LCD game machines; electronic educational game machines; toys, namely battery-powered computer gamesThe filing took place on February 5th, 2008.

Apple's iPods have always contained a few built-in games, but in 2006, Apple extended this to allow 3rd party developers release (http://www.macrumors.com/2006/09/12/ipod-updated/) downloadable games through iTunes. The trademark application, however, will certainly reignite rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/02/14/apple-serious-about-games/) that Apple is seriously pursing its own game development or even its own game console.

Apple has been known to be recruiting game developers back in 2006, and has authored a number of the existing iPod games. In the mid 90's, Apple did launch a short lived game console called Pippin.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/02/10/apple-extending-trademark-to-include-hand-held-gaming/)

toxicbomber

Feb 10, 2008, 05:01 PM

Please just dont be like the Pippin. :eek:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Pippinfront.jpg/200px-Pippinfront.jpg

Astro8973

Feb 10, 2008, 05:02 PM

i really couldnt care less if apple goes into the gaming market. i aint a gamer. now bring on a 32gb 3g iphone with ichat built in!

w_parietti22

Feb 10, 2008, 05:06 PM

Sky Blue

Feb 10, 2008, 05:08 PM

dual64bit

Feb 10, 2008, 05:08 PM

Could just be some patent for their recent "let the games begin" e-mail, more and more games on iPod

far out though

mixel

Feb 10, 2008, 05:11 PM

A games machine is only as strong as it's games.. So I hope they have some good developers on board (ie, YES to Id, "Meh" to EA)..

Saying that, itunes store as a channel for distrbuting "DS-like" games would be excellent, handheld games are stupid, tiny, inconvenient, easily lost things, and an online distribution model suits them down to a tee.. PSP suffers most from that, but the UMD is still pretty killer for putting big games on a tiny handheld. Apple would just bung an ipod HD in there though and make UMD look stupid.

I'm sure Nintendo have realised all this already though.. Well, I hope so for their own sake..

chuckles:)

Feb 10, 2008, 05:13 PM

I don't think its likely that apple will release an entirely different device for gaming. More likely is apple developed games for iPhone/iPod Touch which could be pretty cool with the use of the accelerometer.

Ya, the iPhone and touch are probably pretty simmilar to what Nintendo's next handheld will probably be like, using both motion controls and a touch screen. If you think about it, they have a great game platform possibility on their hands.

MadDoc

Feb 10, 2008, 05:13 PM

I agree with the above. I reckon it's to tie in with the release of the iPhone/iTouch SDK - Apple are probably hoping for an increase in the number of offline games (as am I).

MadDoc,

drummerlondonw3

Feb 10, 2008, 05:29 PM

Well this is my first post :D:D:D:D

I used to think that the games for the ipods were pretty useless but after getting a new nano I have to say they are really playable. Ofcourse its not going to beat my psp or ps3 but they are good time wasters and could be something that will be a good revenue stream for apple

M!K

Feb 10, 2008, 05:30 PM

The idea of Apple making its own home console / handheld is awesome!!! I would just love that!!!

Knowing Apple, it would be sooo beautiful and sooo technologic.

manhattanboy

Feb 10, 2008, 05:32 PM

Please just dont be like the Pippin. :eek:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Pippinfront.jpg/200px-Pippinfront.jpg
Maybe they will have a new game called NBA classics starring Pippin
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:PFn7pW82v2MWqM:http://starbulletin.com/97/07/17/features/donn2.gif
LOL:p

Kar98

Feb 10, 2008, 05:35 PM

iPlaywithmyself! The first handheld game console with touchscreen ever! I just press this one button here, and BOOM! I lose! Isn't that cool?

cyberjunky

Feb 10, 2008, 05:37 PM

Hehehehe anyone seen the iBox spoof on youtube? i love that..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D_KxN0Nepus

I seriously doubt that apple would ever make a games console, but if they ever did then i can say if its anything like the Nintendo Wii i shall hate it, Wii is for kids, i like REAL games.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_iYBmAVuBns

MacTheSpoon

Feb 10, 2008, 05:39 PM

Apple might be planning to add games to the Apple TV. That would be a cool idea, I think. All they need is a graphics chip that can output Wii-quality graphics, right? That probably wouldn't add too much to the price.

iTeen

Feb 10, 2008, 05:41 PM

The idea of Apple making its own home console / handheld is awesome!!! I would just love that!!!

Knowing Apple, it would be sooo beautiful and sooo technologic.
Yea I would so totally buy it!

MacTheSpoon

Feb 10, 2008, 05:45 PM

Ya, the iPhone and touch are probably pretty simmilar to what Nintendo's next handheld will probably be like, using both motion controls and a touch screen. If you think about it, they have a great game platform possibility on their hands.

I still don't know about the touch screen for action games... I think it'd work great for RPGs, though.

But if they added a controller you could plug into the docking port, that would open up the touch/iPhone to any kind of game. If Apple doesn't, then maybe when the SDK is released, this will become possible for 3d parties to create??

mcarnes

Feb 10, 2008, 05:46 PM

It would be nice if Apple got into the "develop Aperture and other pro apps" market instead of all this stupid kid stuff.

timmillwood

Feb 10, 2008, 05:47 PM

I think they are just covering the themselves for iPhone and iPod games.

Mainly iPhone because the SDK is out soon, thus bringing many first and third party games.

If the main reason was iPod games why didnt they do it back in 2006?

s.hoz

Feb 10, 2008, 05:49 PM

Yeah, same here. Apple wouldn't create the next "Wii".
Rather, they're just going to upgrade the iphone/itouch so it can play regualr rpg/multi-touch games you download and save onto your handheld through the newly renamed iTunes=iStore (Maybe you can rent them as well)....Macworld 2009?

AoWolf

Feb 10, 2008, 05:51 PM

Cool I hope we get some games for the touch.

badNameErr

Feb 10, 2008, 05:57 PM

I think they are just covering the themselves for iPhone and iPod games.

Yeah, this is just lawyers doing what lawyers do.

Move along, nothing to see here.

Alphadorian

Feb 10, 2008, 06:00 PM

Why can't Apple focus more on gaming for the Mac? Is there really a bigger market for these handheld games?

diamond.g

Feb 10, 2008, 06:11 PM

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A93 Safari/419.3)

Why can't Apple focus more on gaming for the Mac? Is there really a bigger market for these handheld games?

Considering the DS just recently outsold the PS2 lifetimes sales. I would say yes.

drummerlondonw3

Feb 10, 2008, 06:18 PM

I could see them branching out to this but I would not think that they would move into a new hardware market. It would have to be as an add on to some current platform not as a new product

Pandaboots

Feb 10, 2008, 06:22 PM

Is it just me or does the Pippin look an awful lot like the Xbox? Look at the shape of the controller, the color, the material used and the unit itself. Seems Microsoft even copied Apple's design on this too..Wow!

twoodcc

Feb 10, 2008, 06:24 PM

i hope they do get into video games. and i also hope that they release some iPhone games as well

Sky Blue

Feb 10, 2008, 06:26 PM

Job description for full time game producer/designer:

http://jobs.apple.com/index.ajs?BID=1&method=mExternal.showJob&RID=10680&CurrentPage=1

cyberjunky

Feb 10, 2008, 06:28 PM

Perhaps apple are looking to create a dedicated game development branch for themselves, much like some of Microsoft's dedicated subsidiaries.

angstmann

Feb 10, 2008, 06:29 PM

Here's a game I would LOVE to see on the iPhone/iPod Touch:
http://www.locoroco.com/

A revamped version that makes use of the accelerometer and I could see it flying off the iTunes Store's virtual shelves!

synth3tik

Feb 10, 2008, 06:29 PM

Pippin 2.o

Oh how I miss Pippin:(

manhattanboy

Feb 10, 2008, 06:37 PM

iPlaywithmyself! The first handheld game console with touchscreen ever! I just press this one button here, and BOOM! I lose! Isn't that cool?
That's funny, I use the joystick and win everytime;)

Fast Shadow

Feb 10, 2008, 06:37 PM

No offense to Apple, but they have no hope to take on Nintendo in this market. The DS is an absolute juggernaut, it is to handheld gaming (and video gaming on the whole) what the iPod is to music. The BEST Apple could hope for is a level of success against the DS relatively equal to the success Microsoft has had with the Zune vs. the iPod.

rekoil

Feb 10, 2008, 06:42 PM

From the job description:

"Propose innovative, fun game ideas / designs targeted to a broad casual gamer audience."

That screams "iPod/iPhone games" to me, or possibly games for the AppleTV?

Yixian

Feb 10, 2008, 06:44 PM

Perhaps apple are looking to create a dedicated game development branch for themselves, much like some of Microsoft's dedicated subsidiaries.

Would be a great idea.

iPhone could be to your Mac what the GBA was to the GameCube etc...

(only more so plz ;) )

oldwatery

Feb 10, 2008, 06:46 PM

It would be nice if Apple got into the "develop Aperture and other pro apps" market instead of all this stupid kid stuff.

I agree, this whole consumer electronics kick is very worrying.

inkswamp

Feb 10, 2008, 06:59 PM

I always shudder a little bit whenever I see headlines about Apple and gaming. I mean, every time Apple makes some kind of move in gaming, it looks like a strategy that a grandparent dreamed up. Apple's way ahead when it comes to computers and iPods, but when it comes to games, they're about 15 years behind everyone.

I'd love to see Apple acquire a couple of really good game development companies and start cranking out some kick-ass Mac-only titles, just to see what happens. But every time they make any kind of move toward games, it's always these tame little puzzle games or clever strategy things. Yawn.

inkswamp

Feb 10, 2008, 07:01 PM

From the job description:

"Propose innovative, fun game ideas / designs targeted to a broad casual gamer audience."

That screams "iPod/iPhone games" to me, or possibly games for the AppleTV?

Which further translates to "boring."

jfull15

Feb 10, 2008, 07:13 PM

I don't think its likely that apple will release an entirely different device for gaming. More likely is apple developed games for iPhone/iPod Touch which could be pretty cool with the use of the accelerometer.

exactly, or maybe this iphone sdk will actually open up the entire ipod line to software development? Obviously, the games on regular iPods wouldn't be as intense, but developers could really open up the possibilities of what applications could go on the iPod line, it would be great to see the iPod evolve as really a device that would handle more than just your media, a few people might take ahold of the iPod's disk mode, but more so than not, it's probably not that widespread. More Apps/Features that could be added to the iPod line, especially the iPhone/iPod touch, would put it 20x ahead the competition, as we've already seen that these tiny portable devices are the future of mobile computing. Opening up the iPod and iPhone development would certainly help Apple against recent claims about how it is too controling, (iPhone 1.1.1, bricking,) etc. It would be a step for Apple to open up these successful platforms to third parties, and still keep it protected.

As far as Apple creating its own gaming console, I think it's a terrible idea. Apple really doesn't need to go there. Now, if Apple Partnered with Nintendo to bring some sort of merger product of Apple TV/iPod/Wii/DS/etc. integration, I could really see that taking off. That would help Apple gain a hand in the market, without falling knee deep in a thriving industry that it has no experience in. You definitely don't want Apple to get greedy and start testing the waters in every market it can, look at Sony. Sony isn't failing, but it's definitely not reigning on top as high as it was.

I also think that Apple is really trying to pump up the AppleTV, and it is going to be the next big thing, we've already seen TiVo do this. So, the more they can do to innovate the AppleTV the better.

chuckles:)

Feb 10, 2008, 07:14 PM

Job description for full time game producer/designer:

http://jobs.apple.com/index.ajs?BID=1&method=mExternal.showJob&RID=10680&CurrentPage=1

That job description specifically mentions casual games, so it will probably just be more of the same ipod stuff we have seen b4 in the future.

Tallest Skil

Feb 10, 2008, 07:15 PM

2012.

PS4... Xbox 720... Uss... Pippin 2.

mixel

Feb 10, 2008, 07:18 PM

Gamers are loser, I could think of a thousand better things to do with my time.
Apple shouldn't focus on gaming.
Do you listen to music? Read books? Watch movies? Read rumor boards? No difference, welcome to loserville. I can think of a thousand "better" things to do with MY time too, but oddly enough we (gamers) have time to do non-mission-critical things too! Things that ooh, might just be enjoyable for the sake of it. (not to dismiss the artistic and narrative merits of the games industry either..)

Anyway, I'm sure if Apple do focus on games it won't be to the detriment of their other projects. I'm all for them branching out, providing they make good content (or try their hardest at least)

diamond.g

Feb 10, 2008, 07:22 PM

The idea of Apple making its own home console / handheld is awesome!!! I would just love that!!!

Knowing Apple, it would be sooo beautiful and sooo technologic.Like the Pippin was right? ;)

Is it just me or does the Pippin look an awful lot like the Xbox? Look at the shape of the controller, the color, the material used and the unit itself. Seems Microsoft even copied Apple's design on this too..Wow!The Xbox stole more from the Dreamcast than the Pippin.

Nintendo owns the portable casual gaming market. There as many DS's as there are iPods and the DS has only been out for 3 or 4 years!

nagromme

Feb 10, 2008, 07:27 PM

I'm a Mac gamer and glad to see games getting whatever attention Apple wants to give them--MAYBE even making the shocking move of putting some GAMES on their demo units :p

But for the games I play, the best things Apple can probably do are sell more Macs to create a bigger software market, and work harder for better video drivers from Intel, ATI and nVidia.

I hope this is about iPhone/Touch games though. They have tilt, multitouch and vibrate (iPhone), allowing for some real innovative game play. I don't just want old games adapted to new controls like on the wheel iPods. I want NEW kinds of handheld games that leverage the unique mobile OS X platform. Other bug companies might be slow to step in with real innovation using multitouch, so I'd say Apple themselves--and also small shareware authors--would be the likely source of some fun new games.

barijazz

Feb 10, 2008, 07:33 PM

i really couldnt care less if apple goes into the gaming market. i aint a gamer. now bring on a 32gb 3g iphone with ichat built in!

I'm not a gamer either, but a main reason windows stays popular is because of the gaming market, big market there. Hopefully EA will keep its promise and start developing mac games. The games aren't what excites me, it's the fact that apple's market share is growing and more and more software companies will have to realize that, starting with games, and apple is just trying to jump start that.

barijazz

Feb 10, 2008, 07:37 PM

That job description specifically mentions casual games, so it will probably just be more of the same ipod stuff we have seen b4 in the future.

I think you're right, apple isn't going to be competing with crysis or halo. More like wii games, fun and easy to use. Apple doesn't want the gamer stereo type tied to their title like microsoft does.

Stridder44

Feb 10, 2008, 07:42 PM

Gamers are losers you say? perhaps people who insult other people based on their hobbies are loosers? Live and let be, failing that your just as much a looser.

Loser. Not Looser. Lose = to lose a game/lose something. Loose = to loosen a knot/bow.

On that note, I agree with you. But I highly doubt this is anything more than lawyer stuff. The gaming market is pretty saturated right now, though the handhelds could probably use a newcomer...someone to knock Nintendo off their feet. However, if Apple were to make a game console to compete with the big boys (PS3, 360...the Wii, well...heh), I'd be curious to see how they'd combine/interact with other Apple products.

diamond.g

Feb 10, 2008, 07:54 PM

someone to knock Nintendo off their feet.

Like Sony did right? ;)

However, if Apple were to make a game console to compete with the big boys (PS3, 360...the Wii, well...heh), I'd be curious to see how they'd combine/interact with other Apple products.
I would be interested in seeing if Apple could compete with the "big boys" and not sell their system at a loss like the "big boys" do (well with the exception of the Wii).

kewo

Feb 10, 2008, 08:01 PM

Time to buy sony stock?

Mega Merger (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_pesek&sid=aBUsWjRX0foE)

sterlingindigo

Feb 10, 2008, 08:13 PM

Pippin from Lord of the Rings fame?

Syrus28

Feb 10, 2008, 08:16 PM

Like Sony did right? ;)

I would be interested in seeing if Apple could compete with the "big boys" and not sell their system at a loss like the "big boys" do (well with the exception of the Wii).

Yes, Nintendo needs some competition. However, if Apple decides to compete, they will go for the "casual" route. Competing directly with the Playstation/Xbox brand would cost them a lot more money than they might be
willing to loose. They would have to come up with something "innovative" [Which Apple shows no sign of in the Gaming World] to offer a reason to switch, or they would get swept under the rug. Its a tough market.

pomus

Feb 10, 2008, 08:20 PM

I still don't know about the touch screen for action games... I think it'd work great for RPGs, though.

But if they added a controller you could plug into the docking port, that would open up the touch/iPhone to any kind of game. If Apple doesn't, then maybe when the SDK is released, this will become possible for 3d parties to create??

Why add buttons externally when the buttons could be on a screen? :eek:

Remember, its not just a touch screen, its a MULTItouch screen. Think of the possibilities.:cool:

Syrus28

Feb 10, 2008, 08:23 PM

Why add buttons externally when the buttons could be on a screen? :eek:

Remember, its not just a touch screen, its a MULTItouch screen. Think of the possibilities.:cool:

Yes, but how many fingers can you fit on a 3-inch screen, without blocking the view? Gaming needs precision.

TuffLuffJimmy

Feb 10, 2008, 08:26 PM

Why add buttons externally when the buttons could be on a screen? :eek:

Remember, its not just a touch screen, its a MULTItouch screen. Think of the possibilities.:cool:

Go play the NES emulator on an iPod...

jfull15

Feb 10, 2008, 08:30 PM

What if we even saw an AppleTV + Wii ultra compatibility? Each system could play off of each other to create one of the most amazing home theater experiences. The possibilities are endless. Or, a an Apple-TiVo partnership.

It is much smarter for Apple to feed off of and partner up with established companies that are leaders in their field. Instead of trying to take down these companies, Apple should join them. Otherwise, if they try and do everything themselves, Apple loses sight of itself as a Company. However, partnering with companies to bring establshed Apple products, technologies, and software to other devices such as gaming consoles, Apple could have a hand in and ties to almost every technological industry without stretching its company.

diamond.g

Feb 10, 2008, 08:32 PM

Yes, Nintendo needs some competition.

I take it Nintendo didn't need competition when Sony was cleaning their clock in the PS2/GC days huh? So only now since Nintendo has hit the nail on the head do they need competition?

What if we even saw an AppleTV + Wii ultra compatibility? Each system could play off of each other to create one of the most amazing home theater experiences. The possibilities are endless. Or, a an Apple-TiVo partnership.

It is much smarter for Apple to feed off of and partner up with established companies that are leaders in their field. Instead of trying to take down these companies, Apple should join them. Otherwise, if they try and do everything themselves, Apple loses sight of itself as a Company. However, partnering with companies to bring establshed Apple products, technologies, and software to other devices such as gaming consoles, Apple could have a hand in and ties to almost every technological industry without stretching its company.

I just don't see Apple and Nintendo getting along. Nintendo doesn't need Apple at all. They are doing just fine. Plus I can't see Apple (nor Nintendo) giving up profits or control. I mean honestly how is Apple going to expand Nintendo's market? What can Apple bring to the table that is going to double the DS's userbase? If Apple could bring something to the table, why haven't they created their own system? Why rely on Nintendo (the same Nintendo that burned Sony back in the SNES days)?

pomus

Feb 10, 2008, 08:34 PM

Yes, but how many fingers can you fit on a 3-inch screen, without blocking the view? Gaming needs precision.

Don't think of buttons as big bulky buttons that cover your screen area; of them more as interactive icons/items that are a part of the navigational system.

e.g. think of your finger touching an icon (ammo, sword) which could be compared to the pointer in the wii.

and, pick items up or interact with them by touching them. Heck you could probably navigate by touching where you want to go.

again, don't think big bulky buttons. ;)

s.hoz

Feb 10, 2008, 08:42 PM

mixel

Feb 10, 2008, 08:43 PM

Don't think of buttons as big bulky buttons that cover your screen area; of them more as interactive icons/items that are a part of the navigational system.

e.g. think of your finger touching an icon (ammo, sword) which could be compared to the pointer in the wii.

and, pick items up or interact with them by touching them. Heck you could probably navigate by touching where you want to go.

again, don't think big bulky buttons. ;)
Sounds feasable but largely impractical and a giant step backwards as a control scheme for most genres of games.

Might be fun for an RTS though.. "you guys.. go.. there" *prod prod* - and would definitely work on something like Myst, lol. Hmm, point and click adventures could make a come-back, but with real pointing! :D

Prof.

Feb 10, 2008, 08:45 PM

iGame, anyone? That seems like an appropriate name.:p

davekarn

Feb 10, 2008, 08:47 PM

I think iPlay would be a good name choice too...I don't know, just my two cents.

EagerDragon

Feb 10, 2008, 08:47 PM

Gamers are loser, I could think of a thousand better things to do with my time.
Apple shouldn't focus on gaming.

The biggest trouble that switchers have is that there are few games for the Mac. A lot of people coming from the PC side are gamers. Having the iMac as a premier gaming system will help Apple sell more Macs and grow their business.

Having said that ..... I don't think they will make a Mac a stronger gaming system than what it is now. Likely this is for :apple:TV iPhone and iPods.

Syrus28

Feb 10, 2008, 08:48 PM

I take it Nintendo didn't need competition when Sony was cleaning their clock in the PS2/GC days huh? So only now since Nintendo has hit the nail on the head do they need competition?
Uhh... Im talking Hand-held Gaming. Now rethink your statement.

I just don't see Apple and Nintendo getting along. Nintendo doesn't need Apple at all. They are doing just fine. Plus I can't see Apple (nor Nintendo) giving up profits or control. I mean honestly how is Apple going to expand Nintendo's market? What can Apple bring to the table that is going to double the DS's 100 million+ userbase? If Apple could bring something to the table, why haven't they created their own system? Why rely on Nintendo (the same Nintendo that burned Sony back in the SNES days)?
I agree. Nintendo is the only platform who's 1 source of income is gaming. Now look at Apple, they could care less about gaming. How would the two mix? Just because they both have products with similar aesthetics doesn't mean they would be a perfect mix. What would Apple bring that Nintendo doesn't have? It definetly isn't their gaming expertise. They have brand recognition down... So... I think Nintendo should stay as is.

We Healthy

Feb 10, 2008, 08:49 PM

touch controlled warcraft III and starcraft using wimax to play online and multitouch for both right and left click and touchable button to bring up keyboard to chat and that won't work until apple puts the silverthorne processor into the iphone/ipod touch for x86 cuz it uses an ARM chip atm

RexTraverse

Feb 10, 2008, 08:52 PM

Don't think of buttons as big bulky buttons that cover your screen area; of them more as interactive icons/items that are a part of the navigational system.

e.g. think of your finger touching an icon (ammo, sword) which could be compared to the pointer in the wii.

and, pick items up or interact with them by touching them. Heck you could probably navigate by touching where you want to go.

again, don't think big bulky buttons. ;)

The biggest obstacle to this kind of system is where is the button feedback? Sure, it'd be cool to have a constantly changing keypad to adapt to whatever if going on in the game, but you want to keep your eyes on the screen, not on the keypad. Plus, in the heat of gameplay, tactile button feel is critical or you might find yourself hitting the wrong keys as the keypad as moved or adjusted. in your hands.

A totally touch keypad also loses a the biggest innovation in gaming control over the last decade - analog control - both in the analog stick and analog buttons.

sterlingindigo

Feb 10, 2008, 08:54 PM

Syrus28

Feb 10, 2008, 08:58 PM

I have no doubt Apple could succeed at making a portable/system game that would rival or top PSP and Wii. I would be the first to buy. Strange that most games are dev'd for pc, not mac and no games yet for iPhone.
Especially considering Apple's expertise in that area... Oh wait...

Im going to go on a limb and say you don't play console/hand held games. Am I right? Its a lot more complex than those iPod pong games they've been coming out with. [Although Im getting a sense of sarcasm from this post. I just may not be able to detect it...]

diamond.g

Feb 10, 2008, 09:00 PM

Uhh... Im talking Hand-held Gaming. Now rethink your statement.

Ah, yeah. So far the PSP is decent competition (well they are doing better then the others did). At this point Apple would have to wait to release a handheld system when Nintendo releases their next handheld system. There isn't any way Apple would be able to topple the DS right now. Even if Apple could trojan horse the iPod as the handheld device only the last 2 generations (maybe 3 I am not that sure) can play games. That isn't a big enough user base to attract tons of developers (IMO). The DS would be the better choice as the purchaser of the device is at least guaranteed to buy one game (unlike the iPod).

scrambledwonder

Feb 10, 2008, 09:01 PM

Please just dont be like the Pippin. :eek:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Pippinfront.jpg/200px-Pippinfront.jpg

I've been a devoted Mac user since the late '80s and I seriously can't remember the Pippin at all.

Syrus28

Feb 10, 2008, 09:03 PM

Ah, yeah. So far the PSP is decent competition (well they are doing better then the others did). At this point Apple would have to wait to release a handheld system when Nintendo releases their next handheld system. There isn't any way Apple would be able to topple the DS right now. Even if Apple could trojan horse the iPod as the handheld device only the last 2 generations (maybe 3 I am not that sure) can play games. That isn't a big enough user base to attract tons of developers (IMO). The DS would be the better choice as the purchaser of the device is at least guaranteed to buy one game (unlike the iPod).

And don't forget that no one has still been able to top Nintendo in the hand held department. Even the behemoth known as Sony, who was riding off of the success of PS2, couldn't even take 'em.

diamond.g

Feb 10, 2008, 09:03 PM

I've been a devoted Mac user since the late '80s and I seriously can't remember the Pippin at all.

Count your blessings. :D

Syrus28

Feb 10, 2008, 09:14 PM

Count your blessings. :D

Apple didn't actually sale the Pippin under their own did they? I thought Bandai did.

DanB91

Feb 10, 2008, 09:15 PM

diamond.g

Feb 10, 2008, 09:27 PM

Apple didn't actually sale the Pippin under their own did they? I thought Bandai did.
No Bandai and another company sold it. Apple just licensed the OS and hardware design.
why do people keep bringing up the pippin? this was pre-jobs, when apple was failing. it wouldnt be ANYTHING like the pippin (in terms of failure). i would love for apple to go the hardcore gaming approach but i wouldnt mind a casual route (which is prob the way they are gonna go)

but hopefully they mix the 2 up :)

ive always wanted apple to get into the gaming business and hopefully they do so now :)

it amazes me there are people voting this negative.

Microsoft has spent 6 billion getting into the gaming industry. What makes anyone think Apple would just waltz right in and compete with Sony and Nintendo? Apple would have to court developers for the system (handheld or otherwise). They would have to have something to draw people to the system. iTunes, downloading games, may or may not cut it, it depends, can we download the game as many time as we want (like XBL)? How are online games handled, do we need to pay $99 a yr like .mac or will it be free? Will there be no online play?
Is Apple going to go for the PSP/360/PS3 crowd (the folks with large disposable income) or the DS/Wii crowd? Can Apple get parts sourced cheap enough to have constant price drops yet still turn a profit?

It all seems like too much work for an unknown reward for Apple.

Syrus28

Feb 10, 2008, 09:29 PM

why do people keep bringing up the pippin? this was pre-jobs, when apple was failing. it wouldnt be ANYTHING like the pippin (in terms of failure). i would love for apple to go the hardcore gaming approach but i wouldnt mind a casual route (which is prob the way they are gonna go)
Apple...Hardcore gaming... No way. If so, they better be ready to lose some money. Which is totally against everything Apple does. They sell their products at a premium, which is something they just can't do in the hardcore gaming business.

sony isnt competing against nintendo and neither is M$. nintendo is its own thing and should not compare to the media centers/video game systems like the ps3 or 360. it has always been sony vs M$
(plus the ps3 is getting better and better ;))
What is the PSP competing against? What was the PS2 competing against? Both Nintendo. Just because the Wii is suddenly going after a different crowd doesn't mean they never competed.

Sony competed directly with Nintendo with the PS1. Sony competed directed with Nintendo with the DS. Microsoft competed directly against Nintendo with the Xbox.

DanB91

Feb 10, 2008, 09:41 PM

Like Sony did right? ;)

I would be interested in seeing if Apple could compete with the "big boys" and not sell their system at a loss like the "big boys" do (well with the exception of the Wii).

Apple...Hardcore gaming... No way. If so, they better be ready to lose some money. Which is totally against everything Apple does. They sell their products at a premium, which is something they just can't do in the hardcore gaming business.

What is the PSP competing against? What was the PS2 competing against? Both Nintendo. Just because the Wii is suddenly going after a different crowd doesn't mean they never competed.

Sony competed directly with Nintendo with the PS1. Sony competed directed with Nintendo with the DS. Microsoft competed directly against Nintendo with the Xbox.
im srry i didnt make my self clear. when i said nintendo i mean wii lol
yes the n64 competed w/ the ps1 and the GC competed w/ the Xbox and PS2. but this generation they have their own market and are not competing w/ anyone.

diamond.g

Feb 10, 2008, 09:49 PM

im srry i didnt make my self clear. when i said nintendo i mean wii lol
yes the n64 competed w/ the ps1 and the GC competed w/ the Xbox and PS2. but this generation they have their own market and are not competing w/ anyone.

Wii : 5-99 yr old
360: 18-34 yr old
PS3: 18-34 yr old

Seems to me that the Wii competes with the 360/PS3 unless you are saying the Wii is 5-17, 35-99.

You don't see more games like No More Heroes on the Wii due to how much of a suprise it was. E3 2005 the Wii was a joke. The PS3 was basically going to win the war. Same sentiment E3 2006. It wasn't until E3 2007 that the Wii was showing signs of becoming a juggernaught. Now everyone wants to make a game for the Wii. More and more mature games will show up, just give it time. It takes about 12-18 months to crank out games so we should start seeing stuff this year.

The sad truth of the matter? The 360 still sells more software than the Wii and PS3 combined, it's attach rate is like 7 or 8 games per system.

Syrus28

Feb 10, 2008, 09:57 PM

Wii : 5-99 yr old
360: 18-34 yr old
PS3: 18-34 yr old

Seems to me that the Wii competes with the 360/PS3 unless you are saying the Wii is 5-17, 35-99.
Yep. As long as somewhere out there someone is contemplating whether to get a Wii or 360/PS3, the systems will compete.

You don't see more games like No More Heroes on the Wii due to how much of a suprise it was. E3 2005 the Wii was a joke. The PS3 was basically going to win the war. Same sentiment E3 2006. It wasn't until E3 2007 that the Wii was showing signs of becoming a juggernaught. Now everyone wants to make a game for the Wii. More and more mature games will show up, just give it time. It takes about 12-18 months to crank out games so we should start seeing stuff this year.
Don't forget that the 360 has such a high rate of profit for hard core games that much of the attention goes toward that also. And the multiplatform games which include the Wii usually leave the Wii getting the shaft.

The sad truth of the matter? The 360 still sells more software than the Wii and PS3 combined, it's attach rate is like 7 or 8 games per system.
Yep. The 360's attach rate for accessories is higher than both combined too. Partly because the PS3 just has no software, and because the Wii is more casual.

AngryLeprechaun

Feb 10, 2008, 10:38 PM

Did they say Apple toys?

All new Steve Jobs Action Figure! Now with kung-fu grip!

Kar98

Feb 10, 2008, 11:11 PM

Don't think of buttons as big bulky buttons that cover your screen area; of them more as interactive icons/items that are a part of the navigational system.

e.g. think of your finger touching an icon (ammo, sword) which could be compared to the pointer in the wii.

I'm thinking I'm thinking...nonetheless, I'm just about crushing the gamepad when I'm playing Gran Turismo 4, I'd leave pick and drag marks on the screen if it wasn't for the screen protector playing Bejeweled or Solitaire, and you don't even wanna know what I'm doing with the pistols on that arcade game at the local theater... :D

Also, I did play with some iPhones and iTouches, and St. Jobs and his apostles can ramble on til the end of times, it's a fiddly imprecise UI barely fit to take notes or enter a URL. Games? Sure, whatever. Pong maybe, or Dope Wars, or things of that level.

Dreamer2go

Feb 10, 2008, 11:23 PM

As much as I love apple, I don't think they'll win in the gaming console market....
DS and Wii are too...grand to beat even with super duper graphics capability like the PS3.
Apple needs a lot of ideas to beat Nintendo at the moment...

Who knows what the successor of DS would look like...

happydude

Feb 10, 2008, 11:26 PM

maybe apple and nintendo will combine forces and create the iWii!!!

Dreamer2go

Feb 10, 2008, 11:29 PM

maybe apple and nintendo will combine forces and create the iWii!!!
I always wanted that to happen.
Win Win situation.

jfull15

Feb 11, 2008, 12:13 AM

Uhh... Im talking Hand-held Gaming. Now rethink your statement.

I agree. Nintendo is the only platform who's 1 source of income is gaming. Now look at Apple, they could care less about gaming. How would the two mix? Just because they both have products with similar aesthetics doesn't mean they would be a perfect mix. What would Apple bring that Nintendo doesn't have? It definetly isn't their gaming expertise. They have brand recognition down... So... I think Nintendo should stay as is.

yeah, i don't think Apple would fit into the gaming market, but if they did it would be reasonable for them to partner up. The other two big names are Sony & Microsoft, which are huge competitors. So the only big company I can see them partnering up with is Nintendo. Besides aesthetics, Nintendo is also revolutionizing video games and I can see Apple and Ninetendo coming together with some sort of Wii + Mac deal. Im not sure. Im just saying that if Apple were to ever get into the gaming industry, which I don't think would be that great of a move, their best option is to partner up with a company like Ninetendo who is focussed solely on gaming, and so forth. Sony and Microsoft partnerships would never go down as easily.

w00master

Feb 11, 2008, 12:18 AM

maybe apple and nintendo will combine forces and create the iWii!!!

I always wanted that to happen.
Win Win situation.

Keep dreaming, because it will never happen. I'd *love* to be proven wrong, but knowing what I know about both Apple and Nintendo, this is simply a pipe dream.

I really think this trademark thing is related to Apple's comments on the iPod Touch/iPhone in that these have created a "new platform." I also think that this will bring casual gaming to AppleTV, but a full blown gaming console? I really doubt it.

w00master

Syrus28

Feb 11, 2008, 12:39 AM

Why would Nintendo ~merge~ with Apple? What does Apple have to offer Nintendo?

1.) Nintendo is a household name with much more weight than Apple around the world. Especially in the Gaming world.

2.) Nintendo is rolling in $$$$ from its personal cash printing machines known as the Wii and DS.

3.) Nintendo has the "design aesthetics" down with the DS Lite.

4.) Nintendo is the king of hand-helds. Always has been. Always will be.

So, Again, why?

And the gaming world isn't just something you jump in to without willing to loose a couple billion dollars. If Apple were to buy Nintendo, they should have did it 2 years ago. That's right. Nintendo's market Value is $85 Billion. They are Japan's 2nd biggest company behind Toyota. They are worth more than Sony. Apple couldn't buy them now if they wanted to...

AdiFish

Feb 11, 2008, 01:19 AM

First post! :)

Normally I don't post as someone usually mentions what I want to say .. but not this time.

As a hard core gamer I think you're all missing a bit of the bigger picture .. I have a 24" iMac, which I bought a couple of months ago. I love OSX but I still use bootcamp for WinXP. Why? To play games. What games do I play? Anything on Steam (http://steampowered.com). What's Steam? It's an online gaming distribution platform for games like Half-Life 2, Call of Duty 4, Quake Wars and the number of games on it is increasing all the time.

Now, we've already read that Apple have approached Valve (The owners of Steam) on more than one occasion to ask them to develop Steam for the Mac platform. I believe a figure of 1 million was mentioned. Apple didn't want to play. But hang on a minute, doesn't Apple already have an distribution platform of their own? Which could be used for gaming? Yes, it's called iTunes!!

If Apple really wanted to get into games on the Mac, it really wouldn't take much. They just need to get developers on board, which haven't they already done with id and EA. Increase the number, add to iTunes and away they go!!

Oh, and improve the gfx hardware a little bit too :p

bigjohn

Feb 11, 2008, 01:31 AM

Can we finally get that sit-down arcade game that has Wavy Navy &
Lode Runner on it?

Also, a Mac version of Rescue Raiders would be appreciated.

Thank You,

Syrus28

Feb 11, 2008, 01:39 AM

First post! :)
If Apple really wanted to get into games on the Mac, it really wouldn't take much. They just need to get developers on board, which haven't they already done with id and EA. Increase the number, add to iTunes and away they go!!

Oh, and improve the gfx hardware a little bit too :p

Well I don't know about id and EA being enough to carry the platform. And I don't think the other big-name devs would be to quick to jump on a platform so poorly designed for gaming. When I say that, I mean that the only computer capable of playing most of the games the big name developers produce is the Mac Pro and maybe the MacBook Pro. And on top of that, the Mac platform tops out at around 8% of the computer industry. Its just not that attractive for them.

AdiFish

Feb 11, 2008, 01:49 AM

Well I don't know about id and EA being enough to carry the platform. And I don't think the other big-name devs would be to quick to jump on a platform so poorly designed for gaming. When I say that, I mean that the only computer capable of playing most of the games the big name developers produce is the Mac Pro and maybe the MacBook Pro. And on top of that, the Mac platform tops out at around 8% of the computer industry. Its just not that attractive for them.

While it's true that it's not the best gfx out there, the iMac is able to play quite happily games like HL2 and Quake-Wars with the highest settings ... I know because I play them :)

Even Crysis, which is regarded as one of the hardest games on gfx power can be played on an iMac .. Yes, I have to play it on fairly low settings, but it can be played and enjoyed at full 24" goodness :)

I agree id and EA can't do it all by themselves, but it's a start in the right direction. Oh, and it's a chicken and egg scenario isn't it? Gaming companies won't develop for the Mac platform until there are enough people, and gamers won't come to the Mac platform until there are games. Someone may as well break the deadlock and it might as well be Apple. Perhaps starting off with the smaller/easier/cheaper games and building from there.

Beric

Feb 11, 2008, 02:19 AM

The way apple has neglected games on macs, it's hard to believe they would go into the handheld-gaming market. They'll being putting some games on the Ipod touch/iPhone, but don't expect anything big. You guys are getting excited over nothing.

ringmod82

Feb 11, 2008, 02:36 AM

Apple has created the best portable MP3 player and mobile phone. Why not create the best handheld gaming device as well? Why not make the Apple TV capable of playing games? Hmmmmmm......... :D

koobcamuk

Feb 11, 2008, 02:59 AM

Gamers are loser, I could think of a thousand better things to do with my time.
Apple shouldn't focus on gaming.

List them. Then PM me with that list.

jhsfosho

Feb 11, 2008, 03:00 AM

I just don't see this being a good move for apple. I have a 360 and love it. Besides, like many I've already made my console purchase for this generation. If apple comes in next generation then maybe, but how will I play my large library of 360 games?

Anyways, good luck apple.

matthewlesh

Feb 11, 2008, 04:33 AM

I'd love to see it, and i'd be first in line to buy one if it came out...

But to be truthful i don't see it happening anytime soon...

But if it where to happen i'd be thinking about 26FEB as a likely date.

hhaeschen

Feb 11, 2008, 05:46 AM

So far Apple has developed great things as they were concentrating on their core competence. But now it seems they want to be on every market there is out there just for the sake of it. Thus they neglect more important stuff (like releasing an OS that actually does what they promised it would do...). Not good for us, their customers, not good for Apple.

What's next? The iOvenMitt??

Bonte

Feb 11, 2008, 06:00 AM

Why can't Apple focus more on gaming for the Mac? Is there really a bigger market for these handheld games?

Sure is, iPod/iPhone games may well get much bigger than the Xbox360.

In 2 years and 7 months the Xbox sold 17 million consoles and the games cost $50-60, Nintento moves about 40 million Game Boy Advance handhelds per year and games cost $40-50.

Imagine minimum 30 million high-end iPod and iPhone sales per year and games that cost $5, gaming will be huge and Apple's toys may well become more popular than de Gameboy. The growth potential is enormous, AAPL can easily quadruple over the next few years.

FleurDuMal

Feb 11, 2008, 06:33 AM

*I don't game so this must be rubbish*

diamond.g

Feb 11, 2008, 06:41 AM

Sure is, iPod/iPhone games may well get much bigger than the Xbox360.

In 2 years and 7 months the Xbox sold 17 million consoles and the games cost $50-60, Nintento moves about 40 million Game Boy Advance handhelds per year and games cost $40-50.

Imagine minimum 30 million high-end iPod and iPhone sales per year and games that cost $5, gaming will be huge and Apple's toys may well become more popular than de Gameboy. The growth potential is enormous, AAPL can easily quadruple over the next few years.
I am not sure where you are from, but DS games aren't 40-50 dollars. You may be thinking of the PSP.

I also know that game developers will want to charge more than 5 dollars for some games.

I would be very impressed if Apple could ever topple Nintendo in the handheld game market. No one has been able to in the two decades that Nintendo has been playing in the market.

Otaviano

Feb 11, 2008, 07:01 AM

I really hope all this talk is unfounded. I feel like Apple is already stretched and neglecting some of their base.

Bonte

Feb 11, 2008, 07:12 AM

I am not sure where you are from, but DS games aren't 40-50 dollars. You may be thinking of the PSP.

I also know that game developers will want to charge more than 5 dollars for some games.

I would be very impressed if Apple could ever topple Nintendo in the handheld game market. No one has been able to in the two decades that Nintendo has been playing in the market.

Last year Apple sold more iPods than Nintendo's Gameboy, all it needs now is a big selection of games. Gaming will be concentrated on the iPhone and touch so we may need some extra time and a pricecut but Apple will be big in handheld gaming, that's for sure.

I don't think the $5 pricepoint is a problem, big games can be split into smaller episodes. Combine these games and other apps with the iTunes store and sales will skyrocket.

Bonte

Feb 11, 2008, 07:22 AM

I really hope all this talk is unfounded. I feel like Apple is already stretched and neglecting some of their base.

I think we all agree Apple won't dominate the PC market with the Mac, combining hard- and software wasn't the winning solution. The playground with handheld computing is something totally different, Apple has a big opportunity in this market and does everything it can to conquer the market. It will grow bigger than the PC and ultimately will also benefit the Mac and osX, its very important for Apple to be in that space and they are doing a fine job.

ert3

Feb 11, 2008, 07:23 AM

Maybe a handheld video game console is this new hardware that is supported by the iPhone firmware.

Aeolius

Feb 11, 2008, 07:53 AM

I'd settle for Macintosh compatibility for the online component of the new 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons coming this June:

"The D&D game table and the character builder are windows applications driven by a 3D-engine (DirectX based). The character sheet, dungeon builder and encounter builder will be standard windows application."

diamond.g

Feb 11, 2008, 07:55 AM

Last year Apple sold more iPods than Nintendo's Gameboy, all it needs now is a big selection of games. Gaming will be concentrated on the iPhone and touch so we may need some extra time and a pricecut but Apple will be big in handheld gaming, that's for sure.

I don't think the $5 pricepoint is a problem, big games can be split into smaller episodes. Combine these games and other apps with the iTunes store and sales will skyrocket.

I just don't see it. Of course Apple sold more iPods than Gameboys, Nintendo really isn't cranking them out anymore. I would even buy that Apple sold more iPods than DS's. The real question is how many games did those iPods sell versus how many games did the DS sell. I think you will find that the iPod didn't sell squat for games in comparision to the DS.

What is a big game to you? Somehow I don't see a Final Fantasy selling for less then 20 dollars And I don't see how you can split FF up and still maintain a good game. I also don't see Apple allowing us to download the games we paid for more than once, which could be problematic.

If the iPod was such a great handheld gaming platform we should have seen more games for it by now.

koobcamuk

Feb 11, 2008, 08:56 AM

I just don't know how the president of Nintendo and Jobs will see eye-to-eye.

Jobs has been annoying me of late. Apple have annoyed me of late.

Maybe I am not the corporate whore I once was...

Bonte

Feb 11, 2008, 09:03 AM

If the iPod was such a great handheld gaming platform we should have seen more games for it by now.

The iPod Touch/iPhone is clearly the best gaming platform Apple has but all in good time, first the SDK and a large enough userbase to start with.

Popeye206

Feb 11, 2008, 09:12 AM

Why can't Apple focus more on gaming for the Mac? Is there really a bigger market for these handheld games?

I think there is a huge market for mobile gaming and I think Apple recognizes that the Touch and the iPhone is potentially a very good gaming platform. As for gaming on PCs.... personally, with the exception of games like Worlds of Warcraft and other on-line games like this, gaming platforms like the Wii, PS3 and XBox are way better suited for true gamers. If I were Steve Jobs... I'd be putting my gaming resources on the iPod Touch and iPhone. Apple TV I think needs to be more of a Media Center type device for on-demand and interactive programing.

:-) Fun times ahead!

guzhogi

Feb 11, 2008, 09:28 AM

Please just dont be like the Pippin. :eek:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Pippinfront.jpg/200px-Pippinfront.jpg

I think the Pippin looked cool, but you're right. On Wikipedia, it says that Apple tried to make the Pippin a low powered computer rather than a game console. Wrong way to do it IMO.

lazyrighteye

Feb 11, 2008, 09:34 AM

I seriously doubt that apple would ever make a games console...

<precoffee posting>
While iPhone & touch gaming could be nifty (aka: lucrative... and something this iPhone owner happily welcomes), I get the feeling any 'console' talk makes more sense in a future :apple:TV - as opposed to a(nother) stand-alone box.

Should that happen, I think Apple would give the PS3 a serious run for the money. And before the impassioned 'what about Blu-ray?!?" posts start pouring in: if an :apple:TV/gaming console did exist, it would never offer Blu-ray. Ever. It would kill any iTunes Store aspirations. And we all know Apple is pushing an online distribution model, void of any physical media.

But that's a lot of shoulds, coulds and ifs.
As you were.</precoffee posting>

JohnHawkins

Feb 11, 2008, 09:47 AM

i really couldnt care less if apple goes into the gaming market. i aint a gamer. now bring on a 32gb 3g iphone with ichat built in!
the secret of my heart...(but I do like the gaming)

cyberjunky

Feb 11, 2008, 09:54 AM

What is all this rubbish about apple and nintendo, its not a win win situation, its completely stupid, Nintendo are self sufficient and as far as im concerned have no need to partner up, with nothing what so ever to gain from such a partnership. In turn this would cost apple more in such a relationship than what they could receive, the end result will be apple branded games but if they are for a console then they wont play on the mac will they? When have you ever played an xbox game on a PC (not talking about re-release, im talking about xbox disc). So this leaves us right where we initially stood

-Apple still wont have anymore games on the mac from the deal.
-Nintendo will have lost some of their market share for no reward.
-Apple will still be dependant on Nintendo to maintain their market share in the console market.

So what did it achieve? nothing what so ever...All this crap about a win win situation, seriously people stop talking crap.

Sonic

Feb 11, 2008, 10:49 AM

Loser. Not Looser. Lose = to lose a game/lose something. Loose = to loosen a knot/bow.

Hmmm, the grammar police strike back. I never understand why people can't be happy just knowing you know the correct spelling / grammar. Sorry to single you out, but I find the phenomenon very odd, because I'm sure most people don't dome online looking for English lessons.

This is not a very serious post, so don't take offence! ;)

rubberduck007

Feb 11, 2008, 10:50 AM

krye

Feb 11, 2008, 10:54 AM

There is no new device.

The iPod and the iPhone already are a gaming platform. Apple legal is just looking to cover their asses. They get suid for everything. It's only a matter of time before someone sues them for games on the iPod.

Also, with the release of the upcoming iPhone SDK, I'm sure you'll see a huge boom in games for the iPhone/Touch. So don't be surprised if the SDK does contain something specific to game development.

ebouwman

Feb 11, 2008, 11:04 AM

It would be nice if Apple got into the "develop Aperture and other pro apps" market instead of all this stupid kid stuff.

What do a lot of those pro apps do for us? They support the entertainment and gaming industry. So if there is no gaming industry for macs, then create one. You really are short sighted.

i hope they do get into video games. and i also hope that they release some iPhone games as well

I think if they can get into games it'll really help them, especially in the long run. I know so many people who will never buy a mac because of the lack of proper games for OSX.

gkarris

Feb 11, 2008, 11:20 AM

aprilfools

Feb 11, 2008, 11:24 AM

sterlingindigo

Feb 11, 2008, 11:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sterlingindigo
I have no doubt Apple could succeed at making a portable/system game that would rival or top PSP and Wii. I would be the first to buy. Strange that most games are dev'd for pc, not mac and no games yet for iPhone.

Especially considering Apple's expertise in that area... Oh wait...

Im going to go on a limb and say you don't play console/hand held games. Am I right? Its a lot more complex than those iPod pong games they've been coming out with. [Although Im getting a sense of sarcasm from this post. I just may not be able to detect it...]

Sure, I play games. Not the kind you are worried about though. :eek: I wasn't being sarcastic.

I don't think Apple's previous experience (Pippin-if that's what you're referring to, or even iPod games for that matter) or even lack thereof will prohibit Apple from coming out with a successful hand held or console gaming device now or in the future.

As for previous experience, consider ROKR may not have been a success but iPhone certainly is. As for lack thereof, consider how iPod has replaced the Walkman.

gkarris

Feb 11, 2008, 11:35 AM

Yes, I am an old man in my mid forties and think that electronic games (no matter what the device the games are played on) are a HUGE waste of time. But, I realize Apple must focus on the youth of today, so that their is an Apple ten years from now. I still hate games though.

I'm in my mid forties and love gaming... I started with Coleco Telegames Pong and Mattel Electronics "Battlestar Galactica" handheld!

SinfonianShrek

Feb 11, 2008, 11:36 AM

My two cents:

Apple doesn't have a hope of toppling any of the seated console manufacturers... Yet.

Here's the hot and fresh muffin of perspective. Casual games, especially the simple 2-D ones are cheap and easy to develop, not to mention that they start making the publisher an almost immediate profit. Look at Pop Cap: they're worth MILLIONS because of the casual gaming market. Stores can't keep Wii's on the shelves, even now, because of the allure of casual gaming. It's a big-buck market if Apple would just put in a bit more work.

The in-house development of casual games for the range of Apple hardware coupled with the already existing cheap and easy means of publication through the iTunes store would mean the potential for big bucks should Apple actively pursue it. If nothing else it would be a relatively low overhead avenue of income for the company.

I highly doubt Apple wants to tackle the traditional gaming market and pit themselves against the entrenched goliaths of Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft. Though I do think it would be neat to see Apple buy out Sony, like some article earlier in the thread suggested, though the growing pains and resulting transformations would probably sour the whole deal for the first couple years. Though hopefully it would mean an end to the lurching monstrosity of the PlayStation brand and the reinvention of the console as we know it.

Will it happen? My money's on no.

diamond.g

Feb 11, 2008, 11:55 AM

<precoffee posting>
While iPhone & touch gaming could be nifty (aka: lucrative... and something this iPhone owner happily welcomes), I get the feeling any 'console' talk makes more sense in a future :apple:TV - as opposed to a(nother) stand-alone box.

Should that happen, I think Apple would give the PS3 a serious run for the money. And before the impassioned 'what about Blu-ray?!?" posts start pouring in: if an :apple:TV/gaming console did exist, it would never offer Blu-ray. Ever. It would kill any iTunes Store aspirations. And we all know Apple is pushing an online distribution model, void of any physical media.

But that's a lot of shoulds, coulds and ifs.
As you were.</precoffee posting>

At the price point the PS3 is sold at, Apple couldn't give Sony a run for it's money. Apple has an adversion to selling hardware at a loss. With this being known how is Apple going to put toghter a system that can rival the PS3 and be able to sell it for a profit?

farmboy

Feb 11, 2008, 12:18 PM

I beg to differ. I am a gamer, but certainly not a loser.

Obviously your mum or dad never gave ya a gameboy as a child. Sheesh.

Well, unlike many of the posters here, a huge percentage (about 100%) of the adult population actually went outside and played. Hard to believe, I know, in the rain, snow, heat, mud. None of the stuff required a power adapter or batteries. No adult supervision was needed. A bike (NO HELMETS--any nobody ever died because of this omission) or any kind of ball was enough to get started--no manuals (make up your own rules as you go) and scores were kept in your head. We could travel UNACCOMPANIED to other neighborhoods far, far away. None of it proved fatal, and no parental abuse lawsuits were filed as a result of these activities. THAT was fun.

So e-games aren't my thing, but I'm happy Apple may be addressing a different generation of fun things to do. I still think going outside is better than staying inside, but ce la vie.

gkarris

Feb 11, 2008, 12:21 PM

At the price point the PS3 is sold at, Apple couldn't give Sony a run for it's money. Apple has an adversion to selling hardware at a loss. With this being known how is Apple going to put toghter a system that can rival the PS3 and be able to sell it for a profit?

And by the time Apple is ready for all their stuff (probably in the fall), the PS3 will drop again to $299... good luck competing against that.

ebouwman

Feb 11, 2008, 01:18 PM

Apple won't be able to compete with the handheld gaming companies or the consoles for that matter.

Definitely add games to iTunes to be played on your computer, iPhone, or iPod, and maybe the next version of AppleTV? (or current version with a way of using the USB port for the controller).

You can also buy games on the iTunes store without a computer.

Definite possibility. The iPhone/iPod Touch games are great - has anyone played iPinball? AMAZING!

I think that apple could absolutely thrash the handheld competition. Apple has so many people with iPods who carry them everywhere. Now why don't people carry their nintendo DS everywhere? Because they're huge.

What apple can do is draw on it's market of iPod users for a kind of user base. What everybody wants is a device that can do everything, it worked for the iPhone because people want their iPod and phone as one. I'm sure that there is a large market of people who want their handheld and iPod to be one device. I know i do.

So apple could create an iPhone/gameboy type device, it would be quite an interesting breed.:D
To be honest though, i really don't see this happening.

I don't think Apple's previous experience (Pippin-if that's what you're referring to, or even iPod games for that matter) or even lack thereof will prohibit Apple from coming out with a successful hand held or console gaming device now or in the future.

As for previous experience, consider ROKR may not have been a success but iPhone certainly is. As for lack thereof, consider how iPod has replaced the Walkman.

It does seem like apple is good at ********** up then many years later taking those same ideas and reusing them, like you said, the rokr, as well as the newton.

At the price point the PS3 is sold at, Apple couldn't give Sony a run for it's money. Apple has an adversion to selling hardware at a loss. With this being known how is Apple going to put toghter a system that can rival the PS3 and be able to sell it for a profit?

I don't know what kind of margins apple makes, but you should know that there is slim to no profit at all for retailers on most apple products.

Also, who says that apple will be competing with the PS3? How about the wii, it's kind of in it's own category.

diamond.g

Feb 11, 2008, 01:36 PM

I think that apple could absolutely thrash the handheld competition. Apple has so many people with iPods who carry them everywhere. Now why don't people carry their nintendo DS everywhere? Because they're huge.

Still doesn't answer the question of how come there isn't an attach rate of at least 1 with respect to games and the iPod. Plus everyone said the same thing about Sony, didn't happen. I would love to eat my words, but I think Apple just couldn't compete with Nintendo in the game department.

What apple can do is draw on it's market of iPod users for a kind of user base. What everybody wants is a device that can do everything, it worked for the iPhone because people want their iPod and phone as one. I'm sure that there is a large market of people who want their handheld and iPod to be one device. I know i do.

Let me put it this way, Nokia once thought that since everyone carries a phone why not make the phone a gaming system. It was called the NGage. It tanked, even though it had decent (sounding) games for it.

So apple could create an iPhone/gameboy type device, it would be quite an interesting breed.:D
To be honest though, i really don't see this happening.

Like I said before, no one has ever toppled Nintendo's handheld reign. Sony is the closest. I just don't see Apple being able to translate iPod users into enough game players to make it a worthwhile thing.

It does seem like apple is good at ********** up then many years later taking those same ideas and reusing them, like you said, the rokr, as well as the newton.

I don't know what kind of margins apple makes, but you should know that there is slim to no profit at all for retailers on most apple products.

Also, who says that apple will be competing with the PS3? How about the wii, it's kind of in it's own category.
Who said anything about retailer margins? I was talking about Apples margins. You know the PS3 cost 400 dollars to make, If they sell it to you for 399 how much are they making? (Hint: not a whole lot) Apple has never sold a device at a loss. Ever. Why would they start?

No the Wii is in the same category as the 360 and the PS3 the 5-99 category includes the 18-34 folks as well. But for the sake of the argument lets say Apple is going up against the Wii. Now what can Apple bring to the table that is going to best the Wii?

AJsAWiz

Feb 11, 2008, 01:52 PM

Good news if it comes to fruition!

diamond.g

Feb 11, 2008, 01:54 PM

Good news if it comes to fruition!

Where are my analog nubs!? :p (and start, select, sholder buttons, etc)

Quillz

Feb 11, 2008, 02:05 PM

The idea of Apple making its own home console / handheld is awesome!!! I would just love that!!!

Knowing Apple, it would be sooo beautiful and sooo technologic.
The Pippin was neither. Judging by history, Apple's game consoles aren't so brilliant.

w00master

Feb 11, 2008, 02:09 PM

I think that apple could absolutely thrash the handheld competition. Apple has so many people with iPods who carry them everywhere. Now why don't people carry their nintendo DS everywhere? Because they're huge.

There are many more with DS and Gameboys. DS may be huge, but it's the right size for gaming. That's the key thing here, the device has to suit the medium and imho an iPod (classic) is a terrible formfactor for gaming.

iPod Touch/iPhone, on the other hand is a better form factor, so there are possibilities here. HOwever, once again you've segmented your audience. DS/PSP users vs. iPod Touch/iPhone? Not even close here.

People also forget the Nintendo fanbase. It's just as fervent (perhaps more so) than the Apple fanbase. I'd like to believe that Apple could crack that, but as of right now I just can't see it.

Ultimately, what I'd really like to see Apple doing is speak with game developers and come up with some games that are unique to Apple as well as come out with a number of games that target to different gamer "demographics": Casual, Mature, Kid-Friendly, Family, Hardcore. Without these moves, I just can't take any news about Apple getting into gaming seriously.

The real way to get a gamer's attention is content and a "killer must have game."

w00master

akadmon

Feb 11, 2008, 02:15 PM

OK, first things first: release the goddamn MBP, Apple! Do that, and you can work on busting the Cabbage Patch Dolls market, I don't care.

-Noodles

Feb 11, 2008, 02:17 PM

I'd love to see Apple acquire a couple of really good game development companies and start cranking out some kick-ass Mac-only titles, just to see what happens.

Now that apple is picking up market share with their computers it's only a matter of time before they will need to make a move on the last pillar of the youth market, namely games (the others being movies, and music). While an iMac may not be apple to compete with a pc for bleeding edge hardware it certainly trumps an xbox or playstation and that may be good enough for apple's purposes. If I were apple I would do exactly as you are proposing and buy some developers to do mac-only games once the user base was large enough to entice other developers to come and do the same.

Of course a mac game could be uniquely different from others in that some of the game content could be ported to an ipod to be played, then uploaded when attached back to the computer. Games within games so to speak.

Apple will not be able to ignore games forever.

w00master

Feb 11, 2008, 02:17 PM

OK, first things first: release the goddamn MBP, Apple! Do that, and you can work on busting the Cabbage Patch Dolls market, I don't care.

So, are you equating gamers to the "Cabbage Patch Dolls market?"

Whatever dude.

w00master

Bertmg

Feb 11, 2008, 02:24 PM

I don't think its likely that apple will release an entirely different device for gaming. More likely is apple developed games for iPhone/iPod Touch which could be pretty cool with the use of the accelerometer.

I agree... but like with MacBook Air, Apple may be thinking that if they make a shinny product with their brand on it, blind Apple fans will buy it too.:eek:

Bertmg

Feb 11, 2008, 02:30 PM

Unless Apple is seriously thinking about changing the whole gaming experience (which I doubt will be hard to beat now days), they should stick with closing the gaming gap between OSs and encouraging developers to develop games for exclusive Apple products like iPhone and iPods and also make sure that in the platform area, they develop the games for MS in tandem for OS X.:cool:

SthrnCmfrtr

Feb 11, 2008, 02:47 PM

I think the Pippin looked cool, but you're right. On Wikipedia, it says that Apple tried to make the Pippin a low powered computer rather than a game console. Wrong way to do it IMO.

Yeah, what a stupid idea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox).

Well, unlike many of the posters here, a huge percentage (about 100%) of the adult population actually went outside and played. Hard to believe, I know, in the rain, snow, heat, mud. None of the stuff required a power adapter or batteries. No adult supervision was needed. A bike (NO HELMETS--any nobody ever died because of this omission) or any kind of ball was enough to get started--no manuals (make up your own rules as you go) and scores were kept in your head. We could travel UNACCOMPANIED to other neighborhoods far, far away. None of it proved fatal, and no parental abuse lawsuits were filed as a result of these activities. THAT was fun.

And after you walked to school barefoot six miles in a blizzard, did your teacher read to you from the Good Book?

diamond.g

Feb 11, 2008, 03:10 PM

Now that apple is picking up market share with their computers it's only a matter of time before they will need to make a move on the last pillar of the youth market, namely games (the others being movies, and music). While an iMac may not be apple to compete with a pc for bleeding edge hardware it certainly trumps an xbox or playstation and that may be good enough for apple's purposes. If I were apple I would do exactly as you are proposing and buy some developers to do mac-only games once the user base was large enough to entice other developers to come and do the same.

Of course a mac game could be uniquely different from others in that some of the game content could be ported to an ipod to be played, then uploaded when attached back to the computer. Games within games so to speak.

Apple will not be able to ignore games forever.

Buying developers could be a bad thing for both Apple and the developers. If the games don't sell well how is Apple going to recoup the purchase of a dev house, especially a higher profile dev house?

Bonte

Feb 11, 2008, 03:18 PM

At the price point the PS3 is sold at, Apple couldn't give Sony a run for it's money. Apple has an adversion to selling hardware at a loss. With this being known how is Apple going to put toghter a system that can rival the PS3 and be able to sell it for a profit?

Apple indeed doesn't subsidize the hardware but neither is Nintendo, high-end hardware is not the end-all for console gaming.

Having a large library of games at $5 is also extremely competitive and the hardware has to be "good enough". The market for casual gaming on general purpose electronic devices is much bigger than the hardcore gaming we see on PS3 and 360. I agree we won't see much gaming on the AppleTV (unless we can run 3P apps) but the Touch and iPhone are perfect, dwarfing the PSP is almost a given and maybe we'll even beat the Gameboy.

High-end console gaming is a niche dominated by Sony and MS, indeed not a market for Apple.

diamond.g

Feb 11, 2008, 03:30 PM

Apple indeed doesn't subsidize the hardware but neither is Nintendo, high-end hardware is not the end-all for console gaming.

Having a large library of games at $5 is also extremely competitive and the hardware has to be "good enough". The market for casual gaming on general purpose electronic devices is much bigger than the hardcore gaming we see on PS3 and 360. I agree we won't see much gaming on the AppleTV (unless we can run 3P apps) but the Touch and iPhone are perfect, dwarfing the PSP is almost a given and maybe we'll even beat the Gameboy.

High-end console gaming is a niche dominated by Sony and MS, indeed not a market for Apple.

I don't think anyone else could do what Nintendo did and come out unscathed. Not even Nintendo thought what they did was going to work. But now that it did here comes people saying that Apple could do it better. I just don't get it, if they could why didn't they?

I am not sure what kind of games you are looking at that would sell for 5 dollars, but I am pretty sure games as complex as the DS/Wii games I have seen would have to go for at least 15 dollars. I am still unconvinced that Apple could do a better job than Nintendo. I keep looking at how the iPod has been able to play games for what 2 years now? How well have the games been selling?

What advantage does the iPhone/ iPod Touch bring that is sorely missing from the DS?

neoelectronaut

Feb 11, 2008, 03:35 PM

Cygnus311

Feb 11, 2008, 04:28 PM

Gamers are loser, I could think of a thousand better things to do with my time.
Apple shouldn't focus on gaming.

Like make insulting posts on a geek-laden message board about them? Spoken like a true tool.

-Noodles

Feb 11, 2008, 06:45 PM

Buying developers could be a bad thing for both Apple and the developers. If the games don't sell well how is Apple going to recoup the purchase of a dev house, especially a higher profile dev house?

They may not recoup the cost. However if their market share is wide enough it would be the most logical direction for them to go in for a couple reasons.

Anything they do with video games is almost guaranteed to not make money for some time, so going in this direction is not a reflection of the need to make a profit so much as a need to widen their appeal, image, audience, longevity etc. (besides with 16bil in the bank they can afford to take risks) Realizing this, the question becomes where will the investment make the most impact, be most beneficial etc. In asking this I don't see much point to a console. The market is already crowded with competitors and a failure there could be a black eye for the brand as a whole.

However, the iMac is an all in one system of sorts. Taking the price of a ps3 plus the cost of a screen and you've practically got the cost of an iMac. If apple took charge with some mac only games followed up by developer interest, it could increase its already great appeal.

Finally having osx as with a solid stable of game development is the last blow to making apple a complete alternative to the pc. Apple may not offer the uber video cards but assuming its market share has grown wide enough it won't matter as long as it is able to keep a healthy crop of titles developed for it. There is certainly both the need and demand.

Syrus28

Feb 11, 2008, 06:51 PM

It seems like some people cringe at the though of a competitor that Apple can't beat.

Now that apple is picking up market share with their computers it's only a matter of time before they will need to make a move on the last pillar of the youth market, namely games (the others being movies, and music). [B]While an iMac may not be apple to compete with a pc for bleeding edge hardware it certainly trumps an xbox or playstation and that may be good enough for apple's purposes. If I were apple I would do exactly as you are proposing and buy some developers to do mac-only games once the user base was large enough to entice other developers to come and do the same.
Misconception. The average gamer is age 33. That's hardly a "youth market." And after the Wii, games will be even more "mainstream". A computer such as an iMac can certainly not outperform a PS or Xbox, unless your talking about the last generation machines, which are OLD. The Xbox is almost 6 years old, while the PS2 is from the 90's. If thats an accomplishment, then Apple should stay out of this business. Apple can't be serious about gaming and only sell 1[maybe 2] computer that can seriously play these games. PC games are all about performance. And developers want games that sell. The Mac Platform is a already small, and their best selling machine has integrated graphics. Not a good sign.

Of course a mac game could be uniquely different from others in that some of the game content could be ported to an ipod to be played, then uploaded when attached back to the computer. Games within games so to speak.
The only controls the iPod has is a scroll wheel. Its just not good enough for your ideas, unless Developers only plan on developing games such as pong or Brick for their Macs/iPods

Syrus28

Feb 11, 2008, 07:00 PM

They may not recoup the cost. However if their market share is wide enough it would be the most logical direction for them to go in for a couple reasons.

Anything they do with video games is almost guaranteed to not make money for some time, so going in this direction is not a reflection of the need to make a profit so much as a need to widen their appeal, image, audience, longevity etc. (besides with 16bil in the bank they can afford to take risks) Realizing this, the question becomes where will the investment make the most impact, be most beneficial etc. In asking this I don't see much point to a console. The market is already crowded with competitors and a failure there could be a black eye for the brand as a whole.
True, but is Apple really willing to dump billions of dollars for Gaming? It goes against everything they've did to get where they are now. Sell a product at a loss? Go for market share over profit? I can't see it happening.

However, the iMac is an all in one system of sorts. Taking the price of a ps3 plus the cost of a screen and you've practically got the cost of an iMac. If apple took charge with some mac only games followed up by developer interest, it could increase its already great appeal.
Comparing a PS3 to a iMac in this regard is silly. A PS3 is $400 and offers vastly better graphics than anything an iMac can throw at it. And most people have screens you know, they are called TV's. Also, game development costs these days are skyrocketing. The only developers that would be able to pony up a Mac only game are people like EA or Activision. The money just isn't there.

Finally having osx as with a solid stable of game development is the last blow to making apple a complete alternative to the pc. Apple may not offer the uber video cards but assuming its market share has grown wide enough it won't matter as long as it is able to keep a healthy crop of titles developed for it. There is certainly both the need and demand.
If your talking Mac-only titles, again, I can't see it happening. Games costs million and billions of dollars to develop, and who would be willing to vastly limit their success just to cater to the Mac crowd? No one. I can imagine some lower budget titles happening, but that really wouldn't establish the Mac platform as a alternative to PC. Also, the Mac crowd is kinda different than the PC crowd. These are people who are use to a closed system, with very little user upgradable parts, and were willing to give up the "Gaming" to go to the Mac. It just doesn't scream supply and demand for gaming.

Bonte

Feb 11, 2008, 07:28 PM

What advantage does the iPhone/ iPod Touch bring that is sorely missing from the DS?

Millions buy a Touch or iPhone, presumably 20 million before 2009 starts. This alone makes it more popular than the Gameboy, i say it has more than one advantage over the DS except for the games. A nice game library is all it needs to be a successful game console, we already have the users and now we only have to wait for the SDK and the games.

Apple will never promote it as a game console because it degrades the device, people expect a console to be cheap.

-Noodles

Feb 11, 2008, 07:38 PM

It seems like some people cringe at the though of a competitor that Apple can't beat. [Besides M$]

Misconception. The average gamer is age 33. That's hardly a "youth market." And after the Wii, games will be even more "mainstream".

The average age of a gamer doesn't really say anything against what younger people spend their time doing which is still largely divided between music, movies, and video games. Any product that tries to sell itself on brand identity will typically want to market a portion of themselves to younger audiences hoping they will retain these customers for life. Think Nike, McDonalds, etc. I was simply trying to say that games may represent a way for apple to do this. Although admittedly I'm not sure what that "young" target age group would be for them specifically.

A computer such as an iMac can certainly not outperform a PS or Xbox, unless your talking about the last generation machines, which are OLD....

I was talking about the current generation, and on this I agree as is they probably done but given that games are ported instead of natively written for mac I take it, in its current state it's not quite a fair comparison as is compared to what might be. Also I assume the graphics card in the current iMac or mac pro is ahead of the 2 or 3 year old xbox 360, so there's at least potential in the way of updated technology.

PC games are all about performance. And developers want games that sell. The Mac Platform is a already small, and their best selling machine has integrated graphics. Not a good sign.

Again this is a what is scenario. We're speculating that apple will do something with games so perhaps their working on these types of issues. To describe their current state as a barometer for what's to come is not to allow for progress.

The only controls the iPod has is a scroll wheel. Its just not good enough for your ideas, unless Developers only plan on developing games such as pong or Brick for their Macs/iPods

I was actually thinking of something like final fantasy's card game where you discover cards within the game that you can then use to play a separate card game with. But yes there are limits I agree.

-Noodles

Feb 11, 2008, 08:03 PM

True, but is Apple really willing to dump billions of dollars for Gaming? It goes against everything they've did to get where they are now. Sell a product at a loss? Go for market share over profit? I can't see it happening.

Comparing a PS3 to a iMac in this regard is silly. A PS3 is $400 and offers vastly better graphics than anything an iMac can throw at it. And most people have screens you know, they are called TV's. Also, game development costs these days are skyrocketing. The only developers that would be able to pony up a Mac only game are people like EA or Activision. The money just isn't there.

If your talking Mac-only titles, again, I can't see it happening. Games costs million and billions of dollars to develop, and who would be willing to vastly limit their success just to cater to the Mac crowd? No one. I can imagine some lower budget titles happening, but that really wouldn't establish the Mac platform as a alternative to PC. Also, the Mac crowd is kinda different than the PC crowd. These are people who are use to a closed system, with very little user upgradable parts, and were willing to give up the "Gaming" to go to the Mac. It just doesn't scream supply and demand for gaming.

Talking about profitability is a game of numbers and it's not very reasonable to make such bold generalizations as you're doing with out having them.

What can be said generally is that thus far apple's user base has been wide enough to support a small market of games to be ported to its platform. Second it's recent history has shown a dramatic increase in its market share along with its projected market share. Given this there may be a tipping point at which apple realizes there is increased demand for games and tries to develop this aspect of its business further.

Noticing the rumor today we may assume they have taken such notice and are working towards something, what? - who can say. But to carry the notion that apple will continue in the same direction indefinitely in regard to games is out of step with what we know.

Syrus28

Feb 11, 2008, 08:21 PM

Millions buy a Touch or iPhone, presumably 20 million before 2009 starts. This alone makes it more popular than the Gameboy, i say it has more than one advantage over the DS except for the games.
uh? More popular than Gameboy? Lets take a look at some numbers

Original Game Boy: 70 million units
Game Boy Color: 50 million units
Game Boy Advance: 80 million units

Nintendo DS: 65 million units
Nintendo DS Lite: 46 million units

A nice game library is all it needs to be a successful game console, we already have the users and now we only have to wait for the SDK and the games.
Not true at all. It needs good controls, looks, and stability. The 360 by far has the best game library yet it was quickly surpassed by the Wii, who's game library can be considered lackluster. In Europe, the PS3 is outselling the 360 also, despite its lackluster game library.

As they don't release iPod touch #'s separate, and the iPhone has about 4 million users, what numbers are you talking about? Its nothing compared to the DS's 46 million and growing. Lets not forget how poor the controls of the iPod touch/iPhone lend itself to simply games such as Mario Bros. Have you tried the NES emulator? No tactile feedback is horrible.

Apple will never promote it as a game console because it degrades the device, people expect a console to be cheap.

I don't really see how a game console is degraded as apposed to a PMP [assuming your talking about the Touch, the iPhone i can understand] The game industry is a $17 billion dollar industry after all.

Syrus28

Feb 11, 2008, 08:37 PM

Talking about profitability is a game of numbers and it's not very reasonable to make such bold generalizations as you're doing with out having them.
Well we can take a look at Microsoft. They have lost a total of $6 billion dollars since the Xbox debuted in 2002. However, in that time the established the behemoth known as Halo, mainstreamed online console gaming, and established a very recognizable brand. Now, for the first time in 6 years, the Xbox division turned a profit last quarter. Some $531 million dollars.

What Im saying is that Apple has shown NO history of ever selling a product at a loss of profit, or ever trading profit for market share [think Macs]. Im not saying they are no capable of it, but I can't imagine Apple just dumping billions of dollar into something that's not guaranteed to return a profit. That's just not what Steve Jobs does. For example, without Halo, Microsoft probably would have still been in the red for their Xbox division.

What can be said generally is that thus far apple's user base has been wide enough to support a small market of games to be ported to its platform. Second it's recent history has shown a dramatic increase in its market share along with its projected market share. Given this there may be a tipping point at which apple realizes there is increased demand for games and tries to develop this aspect of its business further.
I totally agree. I just don't think that their market share is nearly high enough to create high quality games exclusive to the Mac like you proposed earlier. Really, Apple's Mac OS X Market share has grown what, like 300% since 2003? Its when you put it in perspective, Mac still only has 8% of the PC business, that it starts to look less attracting. At that, only a portion of the existing Macs are really suited to gaming.

Noticing the rumor today we may assume they have taken such notice and are working towards something, what? - who can say. But to carry the notion that apple will continue in the same direction indefinitely in regard to games is out of step with what we know.
I agree.

Syrus28

Feb 11, 2008, 08:58 PM

The average age of a gamer doesn't really say anything against what younger people spend their time doing which is still largely divided between music, movies, and video games. Any product that tries to sell itself on brand identity will typically want to market a portion of themselves to younger audiences hoping they will retain these customers for life. Think Nike, McDonalds, etc. I was simply trying to say that games may represent a way for apple to do this. Although admittedly I'm not sure what that "young" target age group would be for them specifically.
Ahh, well... I agree then. :D

I was talking about the current generation, and on this I agree as is they probably done but given that games are ported instead of natively written for mac I take it, in its current state it's not quite a fair comparison as is compared to what might be. Also I assume the graphics card in the current iMac or mac pro is ahead of the 2 or 3 year old xbox 360, so there's at least potential in the way of updated technology.
Im not so hot on Graphics card, but I cannot imagine that the iMac's graphics card can produce better graphics than the 360. As for the Mac Pro, I would hope so as it starts at $2800. However, Im still not so sure. But as proven by the PC gaming industry, even with comparable specs, the console industry has been edging it out with its ease of use, and tighter performance.

Again this is a what is scenario. We're speculating that apple will do something with games so perhaps their working on these types of issues. To describe their current state as a barometer for what's to come is not to allow for progress.
I agree, however, Im looking at the NOW as a base for what's to come. If Apple really wants to get serious about it (which im not so sure they are), then get ready to change their ways. The integrated graphics will have to go, and get ready to "invest" a couple billion dollars to make it work [in the case of hand held/console]

I was actually thinking of something like final fantasy's card game where you discover cards within the game that you can then use to play a separate card game with. But yes there are limits I agree.
Im not too sure I know what you mean.

diamond.g

Feb 11, 2008, 09:11 PM

Millions buy a Touch or iPhone, presumably 20 million before 2009 starts. This alone makes it more popular than the Gameboy, i say it has more than one advantage over the DS except for the games. A nice game library is all it needs to be a successful game console, we already have the users and now we only have to wait for the SDK and the games.

Apple will never promote it as a game console because it degrades the device, people expect a console to be cheap.

You do realize that the DS ≠ Gameboy right?

So what you are saying is as a gaming device they don't offer anything better than what the DS does. So you expect it to do better at games when its main focus isn't games. Your expecting a general purpose device to do better than a dedicated one? Um, the PSP says hi.

I am excited about iPhone games, but I am also pretty sure it won't put any sort of dent in the Nintendo handheld space.

ringmod82

Feb 12, 2008, 01:38 AM

Apple has no future in gaming unless you go buy the games that are available. So go buy some games, you knuckleheads.

If you want games to come to OSX, then stop using Boot Camp for gaming.

I think that Apple has no intention of "going big" here. I think that the AppleTV could very well grow into a good gaming system if it is supported enough by it's users..... so um, go buy one when they start offering downloadable iTunes games. Don't expect BioShock or Unreal Tournament to be on your iPhone or AppleTV though. This will be baby-steps into the gaming industry, peoples. I'm thinking more like most of the indy games you see on the apple.com action games downloads section. Family stuff. An easy to use family friendly ALL IN ONE home entertainment system. Apple has always made the best all-in-one. I think this all about improving the all-in-one by adding a few good games.

Bonte

Feb 12, 2008, 02:39 AM

uh? More popular than Gameboy? Lets take a look at some numbers

Original Game Boy: 70 million units
Game Boy Color: 50 million units
Game Boy Advance: 80 million units

Nintendo DS: 65 million units
Nintendo DS Lite: 46 million units

The GB SP is part of GB Advance?
ok, Nintendo has there past sales but the numbers are fairly close when we look at the projected US sales for 2008, the iPhone isn't available everywhere.

Nintendo DS/Lite sold 6 million units in the VS in 2006 and 10 million in 2007. US Touch and iPhone sales will surpass this in 2008 or be really close.

As they don't release iPod touch #'s separate, and the iPhone has about 4 million users, what numbers are you talking about? Its nothing compared to the DS's 46 million and growing. Lets not forget how poor the controls of the iPod touch/iPhone lend itself to simply games such as Mario Bros. Have you tried the NES emulator? No tactile feedback is horrible.

We're talking about casual games, the PSP has arguably better controls than the DS but the stylus interface proved more popular aka the brain games and Nintendogs. I played Bond 007 on the DS and the controls are horrible, Brain Train is perfect and these few games accounted for the DS success. All we need is a few good games that show off the touch capability's.

diamond.g

Feb 12, 2008, 07:12 AM

Nintendo DS/Lite sold 6 million units in the VS in 2006 and 10 million in 2007. US Touch and iPhone sales will surpass this in 2008 or be really close.

But how many games will a DS sell versus how many games will the iPhone/Touch sell. That is where it matters. I have no doubts that the iPhone/Touch could outsell the DS hardware wise. But software wise? IMO, no contest. The DS will win bar a wide margin. In the respect to games, think of the iPhone/Touch as the Zune.

eldeecee

Feb 12, 2008, 03:21 PM

I am hoping that Capcom will get onboard and port Phoenix Wright to the
iPhone/iPod Touch.

:D

Bonte

Feb 13, 2008, 05:50 AM

But how many games will a DS sell versus how many games will the iPhone/Touch sell. That is where it matters. I have no doubts that the iPhone/Touch could outsell the DS hardware wise. But software wise? IMO, no contest. The DS will win bar a wide margin. In the respect to games, think of the iPhone/Touch as the Zune.

I Googled half an hour but can't find game unit sales for the US, Nintendo sold 8,5 million DS consoles in the VS (2007) but no word on the game sales in units.

diamond.g

Feb 13, 2008, 07:47 AM

I Googled half an hour but can't find game unit sales for the US, Nintendo sold 8,5 million DS consoles in the VS (2007) but no word on the game sales in units.

This is only a sub section, but you can look at the media create (http://www.gamegrep.com/industry_news/7195-media_create_012108_012708_japanese_sales_the_week_before_the_storm/)numbers (which are weekly) to get an idea of how well the DS is diong (at least in japan).

I found Decembers NPD (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229157) but the breakdown isn't exactly like Media Creates.

BongoBanger

Feb 13, 2008, 08:05 AM

Well, unlike many of the posters here, a huge percentage (about 100%) of the adult population actually went outside and played. Hard to believe, I know, in the rain, snow, heat, mud. None of the stuff required a power adapter or batteries.

But it was also fun to play with the LCD games we used to have or listen to our Walkmen.

No adult supervision was needed.

Rubbish. I was in the scouts in the 80's and we needed adult supervision for most things.

A bike (NO HELMETS--any nobody ever died because of this omission)

A guy at our school actually did.

or any kind of ball was enough to get started--no manuals (make up your own rules as you go) and scores were kept in your head. We could travel UNACCOMPANIED to other neighborhoods far, far away. None of it proved fatal, and no parental abuse lawsuits were filed as a result of these activities. THAT was fun.

Actually they were sometimes - about as often as they are today. You need to take off those rose tinted specs and realise the 70s and 80s (when I was a kid) were not the paradise you fondly recall.

So e-games aren't my thing, but I'm happy Apple may be addressing a different generation of fun things to do. I still think going outside is better than staying inside, but ce la vie.

See, I actually do both. I played the Atari, the Spectrum, Doom and Quake when they came out, CS, webbrowser games and a whole host of other things. I also achieved my Chief Scout Award, played rugby for my district and for my clubs for years and had a very active social life.

You can actually do both, you know. It's called 'balancing your life'.

BongoBanger

Feb 13, 2008, 08:06 AM

As for mobile gaming, the success of any device is entirely down to its software catalogue and ease of use. If you can't get developers to build for you then you're wasting your time.

diamond.g

Feb 13, 2008, 11:21 AM

As for mobile gaming, the success of any device is entirely down to its software catalogue and ease of use. If you can't get developers to build for you then you're wasting your time.

True, I think Apple would do well in the cell phone game market. But you won't get a toppling of Nintendo in the handheld one.

w00master

Feb 13, 2008, 01:31 PM

Not true at all. It needs good controls, looks, and stability. The 360 by far has the best game library yet it was quickly surpassed by the Wii, who's game library can be considered lackluster. In Europe, the PS3 is outselling the 360 also, despite its lackluster game library.

Not to start a debate on numbers, but where are you getting this stat from?

Still overall in worldwide sales, PS3 is in a *distant* third.

w00master

darkblu

Feb 13, 2008, 02:15 PM

a gaming platform does not need to be successful by nintendo DS standard for it to be successful per se.

the iphone/touch needs neither DS' install base, nor DS library volume to be a viable gaming platform - the PSP, which has been pummeled in sales by the DS for a couple of years now in every territory, is still doing well (actually is gaining momentum in JP). as the game industry has proven again and again, a gaming platform needs have one or two 'killer' titles to create a market (google for 'console system sellers').

bottom line being, apple are taking a natural step by the trademark expansion. there will be games on the platform, and plenty of that, regardless of who reigns the gaming handheld market.

Bertmg

Feb 13, 2008, 03:05 PM

cyberjunky

Feb 13, 2008, 03:30 PM

Instead of reinventing the wheal, Apple should buy Nintendo...And put Nintendo DS games in iPhone and merge Nintendo DS with iPod Touch and Nintendo Wii with Apple TV... (Imagine the market share for Apple and product possibilities) but I guess it may be too obvious for Apple to get into this... they are very proud stubborn people.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Its not to do with pride, steve jobs once hit on something quite important once during a keynote a long time ago. He said that apple could go and spread out making everything they need and everything customers needs and do it all themselves, but he knew that if they did they would loose the focus of whats really important. Apple sticks what what it does best, creating all in one solutions through a marriage of hardware and software, designed to simplify and enhance our lives. That said they achieve this through distributing a lot of the work to other companies of say hardware, they buy in components and make very little hardware wise except the Motherboard and cases, keyboards/mice, they make their own software but keep things like processors to intel and certain software to other companies.
Apples business model has never accounted for games, it might be able to adapt but apple is Steves baby, i just dont see him having room or time for games, he makes a vein effort merely to please the customers but i doubt he has any interest in it.

Games dont really fit the profile of simplifying and enhancing our lives.

darkblu

Feb 13, 2008, 05:58 PM

Games dont really fit the profile of simplifying and enhancing our lives.

wow.

Syrus28

Feb 13, 2008, 08:31 PM

Instead of reinventing the wheal, Apple should buy Nintendo...And put Nintendo DS games in iPhone and merge Nintendo DS with iPod Touch and Nintendo Wii with Apple TV... (Imagine the market share for Apple and product possibilities) but I guess it may be too obvious for Apple to get into this... they are very proud stubborn people.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Apple can't afford Nintendo. Nintendo's current market value is around $85 billion. That is some $35 billion more than Sony, and is only behind Toyota as biggest company in Japan... Apple, with a market value of $113 billion and about $13 billion in cash, would be EXTREMELY [impossible really] hard pressed to finance such a large purchase like Nintendo That's how much the Wii/DS has done for them. I posted a link a page back I think.

Now, 2 years ago, Apple could have bought them. They were worth some $17 billion then [5x less than now]. To put it in perspective, They would have to cough up more than about twice as much as Microsoft is offering Yahoo.

Not to start a debate on numbers, but where are you getting this stat from?

Still overall in worldwide sales, PS3 is in a *distant* third.
PS3 is still being outsold by 360 worldwide, but in Europe (where the Playstation brand is pretty strong), the PS3 has outsold the 360 for the last couple of weeks. [which is what i should have said] Here's a 6-page article that breaks down console sales for the year of 2007. Kinda interesting that the 360 gave the Wii some serious competition during the end of the year. LINK (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8750&Itemid=2)

Syrus28

Feb 13, 2008, 08:53 PM

Its not to do with pride, steve jobs once hit on something quite important once during a keynote a long time ago. He said that apple could go and spread out making everything they need and everything customers needs and do it all themselves, but he knew that if they did they would loose the focus of whats really important. Apple sticks what what it does best, creating all in one solutions through a marriage of hardware and software, designed to simplify and enhance our lives. That said they achieve this through distributing a lot of the work to other companies of say hardware, they buy in components and make very little hardware wise except the Motherboard and cases, keyboards/mice, they make their own software but keep things like processors to intel and certain software to other companies.
Apples business model has never accounted for games, it might be able to adapt but apple is Steves baby, i just dont see him having room or time for games, he makes a vein effort merely to please the customers but i doubt he has any interest in it.

Games dont really fit the profile of simplifying and enhancing our lives.
Uhh...someone has indeed drunk the Kool-Aid.

Sorry to break it to you, but Apple is in business to make money,nothing more. If their primary purpose was creating all in one solutions through a marriage of hardware and software, designed to simplify and enhance our lives. then why sell their products at a premium?

Apple is a publicly traded company, which means they are controlled by the shareholders, not Mr. Steve. This would lead me to believe that making money for the stockholders is more important than, say, simplifying and enhancing our lives And the truth is that the Video game industry is worth some $18 billion dollars, which has to look attractive to any company such as Apple.

VicMacs

Feb 14, 2008, 12:09 AM

the patents are there and a lawyer I know told me its coming

Bertmg

Feb 14, 2008, 07:50 PM

Uhh...someone has indeed drunk the Kool-Aid.

Sorry to break it to you, but Apple is in business to make money,nothing more. If their primary purpose was creating all in one solutions through a marriage of hardware and software, designed to simplify and enhance our lives. then why sell their products at a premium?

Apple is a publicly traded company, which means they are controlled by the shareholders, not Mr. Steve. This would lead me to believe that making money for the stockholders is more important than, say, simplifying and enhancing our lives And the truth is that the Video game industry is worth some $18 billion dollars, which has to look attractive to any company such as Apple.

As much as an Apple fan I am, I am not blind. Well put, Apple is very aggressive about making money mainly offering solutions to simplify your life at a costly premium. The gamming industry is quite attractive for them too.

But they need to come up with a solution that makes it attractive to "All" consumers, not just Apple purists. The top game business models are already pretty good at what they do and figting each other, Xbox and PS3, why get into that fight. Instead, Nintendo has it's own niche with no competition (affordable, simpler gamming which is also portable). Sounds more like something Apple can easily get into, specially if we recognice that gamming is one of teh areas Apple is waaaay behing on (you ourists out there I am not arguing, is MHO), here is where I see Apple making a dent. They can easily use what they already have in teh market and push it even further. If Apple cannot buy Nintendo they should either create a partnership or get Nintendo game developers to also play in iPhone and iPod Touch, or Apple TV or at least think about hitting that non competitive "niche".

Isn't some of Apple OS platform open Unix based, Darwin? or are they closing up their doors and becomming another Microsoft fortress?. I think a great winning strategy is to open and accept more third party developers to create more functionality for its products (that is how Facebook and Google are growing at enourmous steps) ;)