Can US automakers ever return to glory days?

[JesseJames]

I would like to own a car by an American automaker but the products just don't appeal to me.
I have seen some of the prototype designs that they are considering and they do appeal to me. But for the life of me why don't they ever bring them to market?
Take the Chevrolet economy class cars: Aveo. Now here is a car that begs to be revamped. I have watched a show where they actually showed the industrial design shop where they were considering something to challenge the Toyota Scion line of cars. Hip, cool, and in your face, yes it is economy but damn cool attitude. But that was a few years ago. Nothing new on the roads though. Nothing. Boggles the mind.
Ford is still trying to get its act together, and Chrysler has just been bought by a private equity firm- or at least a good chunk of it. GM has posted record losses.
As has been posted here. They try to appeal to a sense of nostalgia with retrodesigns. To me it smacks of desperation.
I will not be surprised if we are down to only one American auto manufacturer in the near future if this keeps up.

[Unspeaked]

They'll never return to their glory days because it's simply a different economy. No one can have the strangle hold they once enjoyed in the industry.

That being said, chances are the Toyota you see at their dealership has more American parts and labor in it than the Ford. So don't use "American Made" as a purchasing decision.

The irony is that companies like Ford offer some really great cars overseas that would sell really well if they ever made them in the US, but for several factors they don't. These are small, economical models marketed at the Asian and European countries.

[ErikCLDR]

The biggest thing I think they can do is to continue pumping out well finished cars with good gas mileage. That along with good reliability will put them on the tops of charts and then people would buy them. I think they should also stay away from ugly designs that try to be revolutionary- chevy HHR, dodge magnum, etc.

This is my advise for GM- DROP BUICK and PONTIAC in the US. In American culture no one wants a Buick. Its like the quintessential old person car. It doesn't matter how cool or nice looking you make it, it has the Buick name and thats 1/2 the reason people buy a car. Pontiac isn't doing so hot and they have nothing really to offer except the solstice. No one really wants one either In the place of this brand they should make an affordable premium brand. Chevy makes the cheap cars, the new company would handle the sports luxury cars, and caddi would be their premium. They need to also get rid of their stupid re-badging. I.E. the envoy, trailblazer, rainier, bravada, 9-7x, and Isuzu Uplander are all the same car.

Ford is going to regret selling Land Rover, they're doing better than ever and I see tons of new Land Rovers on the road. Selling Jaguar probably isn't a bad idea although the XF looks like a very cool, very original car. They're going to lose the police car market if they don't revamp the crown victoria and they have no plans do so (they've stopped selling it). Lincoln doesn't have much to offer other than the Town Car for limousine services. The Navigator isn't a cool car anymore and everyone would rather have an Esclade.

Chysler/Dodge/Jeep- Makers of the ugliest cars in the world, the worst transmissions, and the most unreliable air conditioning systems. Jeep used to be good but they've been ruined with their ugly styling. The commander is supposedly being discontinued soon. Everybody loved the Cherokee, everybody loved the 99-04 style grand cherokee, no one likes the new stuff aside from the Wrangler. Chysler/Dodge used to have the minivan market, but now all the soccer moms have Toyota's or Hondas.

[rockthecasbah]

My problems with "American" cars is frankly, they are not American! It is the foreign car companies like Toyota, Subaru, Hyundai, etc, who are truly making "American" cars because real Americans are assembling them in newly built plants. They are the companies supporting the American economy and providing employment to American citizens, not the "domestic" companies like GM and others who outsource to cheaper labor markets like in Mexico. With the labor issue and the simple facts of higher quality/performance/styling and design of the vehicles, i find foreign cars much more appealing in general.

[Chromako]

If they actually, um... consistently make cars that a person can count upon to start up in the morning and not have to be fixed all the time, [edit: like the Japanese, they don't have to be fixed that much] sure... but even if they do (or have been and I've been living in a box), they have squandered decades of goodwill and that will be hard to get back. no?

[ErikCLDR]

If they actually, um... consistently make cars that a person can count upon to start up in the morning and not have to be fixed all the time like the Japanese, sure... but even if they do (or have been and I've been living in a box), they have squandered decades of goodwill and that will be hard to get back. no?

Are you on crack, or just actually living in a box? :confused:

Japanese Cars are the most reliable on the road right now. I would say in general american cars are pretty reliable but it doesn't matter because parts cost zip for them.

I think the problem with American cars are
1) Styling in most cases
2) Name


Volkswagens are made in Mexico. Some BMW's are made in the US. Pray that Land Rovers and Jaguars won't be made in India.

[Hankster]

In reality there is no true "American" car. All cars these days are manufactured here in the states with half the parts made over seas. All the makers are the same, it's just different in terms of who came up with the models :)

[FrankBlack]

My problems with "American" cars is frankly, they are not American! It is the foreign car companies like Toyota, Subaru, Hyundai, etc, who are truly making "American" cars because real Americans are assembling them in newly built plants. They are the companies supporting the American economy and providing employment to American citizens, not the "domestic" companies like GM and others who outsource to cheaper labor markets like in Mexico. With the labor issue and the simple facts of higher quality/performance/styling and design of the vehicles, i find foreign cars much more appealing in general.

Agreed.

My Legacy was manufactured at Subaru's plant in Lafayette, Indiana. I've owned Subes for awhile now, and a Toyota truck before that.

Everyone I know who has "bought American" over the past ten years has regretted the decision, with one notable exception: One man I work with, who bought one of the 2-seat Thunderbirds. But,,It's not his daily driver. He bought it for a "fun car", and it probably gets driven about three thousand miles per year, if that. His daily driver is a Toyota Camry.

[Chromako]

Are you on crack, or just actually living in a box? :confused:

Japanese Cars are the most reliable on the road right now. I would say in general american cars are pretty reliable but it doesn't matter because parts cost zip for them.

I think the problem with American cars are
1) Styling in most cases
2) Name


Volkswagens are made in Mexico. Some BMW's are made in the US. Pray that Land Rovers and Jaguars won't be made in India.

hehheh.... oops.
I meant Like the Japanese as in the Japanese are reliable. doh.

[tennisplaayer11]

Well, these days more and more foreign cars are more energy efficient. With all the buzz about emissions and global warming, along with rising gas prices, domestic car manufacturers are going to have to come out with more hybrids to keep up with Toyota, Honda, etc. While Ford and some others have released a few hybrids, it doesn't really compare to what Toyota has done with the Prius, for example.

[Abstract]

The irony is that companies like Ford offer some really great cars overseas that would sell really well if they ever made them in the US, but for several factors they don't.

Maybe they have considered this numerous times, examined the situation, and understand the general car buyers mentality better than you.

There's a reason they sell different cars in different markets. If what you said was the case, it would save Ford a lot of time and money if they standardized their car range across the entire world. However, they don't, and the reason is likely something you haven't looked in to.

[biturbomunkie]

i've never been interested in american cars, but my next purchase will mostly likely be american (all my cars have been german and most recently japanese). i think that american automakers will make a comeback if they can rectify their identity crisises.

with UAW/health insurance haunting GM, i'm not surprised that it's losing money. but you can see lutz is working hard to improve GM's products. for example, the new CTS's interior is far more elegant than audi/lexus, and the new CTS-V will most likely outperform its rivials. in addition, cadillac's art and science theme look better than some of the designs from deutschland/nippon. aesthetically, i'd take a XLR-V over a 650i. i used to joke that pontiac's slogan was "we build excrement" (instead of excitement for you non car geeks ;)), but the solstice changed my thought. and the GTO proved that GM does have some decent designers/engineers overseas. the G8 seems like another promising product from holden.

however, i still think GM needs to strengthen buick's products, brand, and dealership experience in order to really go after lexus. they should also reposition pontiac as a cheap bmw alternative that is more exciting than the japanese by introducing a new GTO and killing dreadful products like the g5, vibe and torrent. pontiac needs to be a true excitement division, let saturn be the vanilla toyota/honda alternative. while the trailblazer SS is a fun vehicle considering what it is, GM needs to stop slapping the SS badge on vehicles like the silverado and malibu. the SS badge needs to be earned, not by dumping a mediocre engine on some aging platform. lastly, GM needs to learn from ford - GM needs to stop repeating x-type's fatal mistake with saab. making "cars" like the 9-2x/9-7x will only alienate the enthusiasts and further dilute the brand. instead, safety should be saab's emphasis so GM can use that to target volvo.

i'm not too familiar with all of chrysler's products. but i know that the company was doing okay until it got screwed by daimler AG, royally and without lube. =\

[MikeTheC]

Unless they change their attitudes and business models, not a chance.

My next car will not be from the American auto industry. More likely than not, it will be a Honda or a Hyundai.

[KingYaba]

I have observed most Americans do not go get their oil changed every 3,000 miles like those with the Japanese vehicle (just an example). Those Hondas and Toyotas are treated better by the consumer while the American vehicle is held to somewhat unrealistic expectation and often neglected proper maintenance. The notion American cars are inferior is perceived.

[Abstract]

I have observed most Americans do not go get their oil changed every 3,000 miles like those with the Japanese vehicle......(snip).......The notion American cars are inferior is perceived.

Hmmm.....

[keith032001]

OMG!!! have you seen the new corvettes, CTS', Escalades, HUMMERS, 300Cs and Callangers or Chargers?? go google those then tell come back...

[quagmire]

As already said, no they won't. Too much competition now. But, they're slowly coming back.

GM- New products like the Malibu, Aura, CTS, Astra, G8, etc shows that they are changing. Right now, GM is in the best shape out of the Big 3. The $34 billion loss was only caused by a freak tax issue and without it the loss would be in the millions in 2007 instead of the billions. So they're getting better.

Ford- is getting there as well. Not as fast as GM, but getting there. Fusion is decent. The new Focus is a joke, but Ford admits it was a mistake not to bring the Euro Focus over. The new Focus ended up more expensive then it would of cost to bring it over the pond.

Chrysler- Execs just sitting there going, " WTF?????????" They are in the worst shape. Sebring, Avenger, Compass, Patriot, etc are all JOKES. Daimler royally screwed them over. Viper is dead come 2011. Looks like Cerberus is starting the carving as there are talks of selling Jeep to an Indian company. RIP Chrysler.

[MikeTheC]

Looks like Cerberus is starting the carving as there are talks of selling Jeep to an Indian company. RIP Chrysler.
[Over-The-Top fake Indian accent] Would you be liking a slurpee with the new car which you are purchasing in the store of Crysler? [/accent]

Yeah, I can just imagine that.

[iAthena]

OMG!!! have you seen the new corvettes, CTS', Escalades, HUMMERS, 300Cs and Callangers or Chargers?? go google those then tell come back...

Gas guzzlers all. I hope that US companies aren't banking on those to pull them out of the slump they are in. They should be looking at why people are buying Civics, Camrys, Prius and Minis like they were going out of style.

[protozoa]

I own two Toyotas and a Mazda. I doubt I'd ever own another "American brand" car.

However, every now and then they get close to getting things right. A recent example that I can think of is the Pontiac Solstice (and its Saturn cousin). Also, I have a fondness for the Jeep Wrangler that causes me to take one out on a test drive every few years (I owned a Wrangler back in the early '90s).

[IJ Reilly]

By "glory days" do you mean when GM made half of the cars sold in the US, and the other US manufacturers made almost all of the other half? I do believe that's a rhetorical question. Right now, the question more about survival than a return to any sort of glory days.

[Stampyhead]

OMG!!! have you seen the new corvettes, CTS', Escalades, HUMMERS, 300Cs and Callangers or Chargers?? go google those then tell come back...

Yes. The word that comes to mind is 'fugly.' I will never buy a car from an American car company, ever.

[FrankBlack]

What do car buyers in their 20's to early 30's want to buy, when they are considering cars? They don't buy Buicks.

I'm glad Cadillac has a hit on their hand with the CTS, but is it enough to save GM?

[ryannel2003]

Times have definitely changed from GM's heyday in the 50's and 60's. At the time, they had over 50% market share with strong competition from Ford and Chrysler, even AMC. They hit an extreme rough patch in the 80's putting out cars that were not up to standards, even at that time. They were taking Oldsmobile's, rebadging them as Cadillac's and adding $5k to the sticker. GM has a tendency to take a good thing to far, similar with the new Lambda triplets. I don't see the need for the Outlook, Acadia, Enclave, and now the Traverse. This kind of rebadging is dangerous in my opinion; if I were running GM, I would drop the Outlook due to slow sales, and make a different kind of crossover for Chevy. The Acadia and Enclave are doing very well, so no need to mess with them. I would also do a complete image rebrand with Buick, as sales on them continue to decline. I would re-introduce Park Avenue, Regal, and LeSabre as those cars sold well even in the last years of life. As for Pontiac, drop the Torrent and do a complete re-design of the G6. It has the goods and style, but with a horribly cheap interior and average drivetrains, they can't compete with Camry, Accord, or even the General's own Malibu. I would also re-introduce Trans-Am to spice up the lineup a bit, even though the new G8 looks promising.

As for Chevy, they are doing well right now. The Malibu has won praise from every magazine I have read so far. The FWD Impala is going away in 2009 or 2010, and supposedly going to be replaced with a new RWD model to compete with Dodge's Charger. Saturn is a bit of a sore spot, with the new Aura and Outlook not selling to expectation. The Aura has the goods, amazing looks, powerful engine, but I guess the Saturn badge scares some people away.

Cadillac is perfectly fine right now. CTS is amazing, Escalade is selling well, and the SRX is doing decent. As for STS and DTS, they are both being replacing in 2010 with a all new sedan, which sounds like a great idea. However, GM is dropping development of a Northstar replacement, so I'm not sure how that will go over. Might start using LS engines, which are pretty damn reliable and have decent fuel economy and wouldn't cost GM so much money to translate into a Caddy.

As for Hummer... get rid of 'em. Sell them off or create a whole new kind of image for them.

[Unspeaked]

Maybe they have considered this numerous times, examined the situation, and understand the general car buyers mentality better than you.

Please don't try to lecture me saying that because a company is large and has money behind it, it knows what it's doing and knows what people want. Making the wrong decisions and not knowing what people want is exactly what's gotten the US automakers in their mess in the first place (plus pensions, but that's a whole other issue...).

I hate to break it to you, but large corporations are capable of making mistakes...

Also, at least one person gets what I'm saying:

Ford- is getting there as well. Not as fast as GM, but getting there. Fusion is decent. The new Focus is a joke, but Ford admits it was a mistake not to bring the Euro Focus over. The new Focus ended up more expensive then it would of cost to bring it over the pond.

[Naimfan]

To answer the question posed by the thread, no.

[ryannel2003]

My problems with "American" cars is frankly, they are not American! It is the foreign car companies like Toyota, Subaru, Hyundai, etc, who are truly making "American" cars because real Americans are assembling them in newly built plants. They are the companies supporting the American economy and providing employment to American citizens, not the "domestic" companies like GM and others who outsource to cheaper labor markets like in Mexico. With the labor issue and the simple facts of higher quality/performance/styling and design of the vehicles, i find foreign cars much more appealing in general.

It's quite unfortunate Toyota is getting a lot of their work done here in the USA, because new Toyota vehicles (especially the new Camry) is not up to the quality previously set by the car. The Japanese built Camry's (from what I have seen) are much tighter built cars and don't have the problems the USA Cam's do. I still love Toyota, but they need to work on their quality issues (and thankfully, most of them have been fixed).

[Counterfit]

My Legacy was manufactured at Subaru's plant in Lafayette, Indiana.

Everything on my Impreza was made in Japan. That includes the wheels (my OEM wheels were made by Enkei), tires (Bridgestone), and DBW throttle sender (DENSO). The only exception are the headlight bulbs, which are Sylvania, so probably made in the US.

[Phazotron]

Speaking as a native Michigander, Michigan being the center of the crumbling US auto industry, the answer is no, or at least not for a long time. Saddled by a variety of problems, including boring products, questionable reliability (go check ConsumerReports.org to see, and my own experience with my '95 Ford Taurus), and fat support for union workers (GM wasn't called Generous Motors for nothing), American car companies are hosed. The stress they are under financially is just too great, just look at what GM and Ford are doing - desperate to cut costs, they are buying out the union workers by the tens of thousands.

I think for too long American car manufacturers thought people would buy American out of loyalty, but when your car breaks every 6 months and your neighbor's Honda just kept going, you sit up and take notice. Suddenly that loyalty is costing you a lot of money, money most people can't afford to lose.

The only American car I would consider would be a Ford Escape Hybrid, and that's about it, and I would worry about its reliability if I did get it.

My next car will be a Honda or Subaru, most likely, unless I win the lottery in which case I'll flip a coin between a BMW and a Lexus.

[faintember]

By "glory days" do you mean when GM made half of the cars sold in the US, and the other US manufacturers made almost all of the other half?I agree in the term "glory days" is very ambiguous. To me, the glory days of US auto makers was the 50's, 60's and early 70's (pre-gas regulations/unleaded gas). This may be because of good design (aesthetically pleasing and/or reliable transportation), "coolness factor" generated by muscle cars or a product of America having finally moved out of the Great Depression, having been victorious in WWII, etc. While America was moving on after 1945 (baby boom, economy growth, 50's housing boom as well as a surge in confidence asa country) most of Europe as well as Japan were rebuilding both literally and figuratively.

VW was the first real "attack" against the American auto makers, as VW offered inexpensive cars that were efficient (decent mpg/air cooled) and reliable. In the 1970's fuel became more of an issue combined with the strains of Vietnam, thus the inexpensive and efficient VW gained a larger foothold in the USA, while also opening the market to the Honda bikes. Instead of changing strategy in the 80's, US auto makers kept on going in the same direction as the 70's, producing big, poorly designed, inefficient cars with the "best" example of American cars being the minivan. The 90's didn't offer much in the way of change in American cars other than a welcome change (in regards to the 80's) in exterior design. Honda, Toyota and other companies were "new" to the US market and offered decent vehicles that were economic and reliable. With US automakers not changing their strategy it is not surprising to see them in the predicament they are in now.I do believe that's a rhetorical question. Right now, the question more about survival than a return to any sort of glory days.I totally agree once again. A return to making reliable, affordable, attractive cars while increasing fuel efficiency is the only way I can see American automobiles returning to the "glory days". I guess my other question is: Was the glory days of the American auto a product of the American auto industry itself, or rather a byproduct of the American economy in comparison to the rest of the world?

Yes, I have always driven American cars, and with the exception of one car they all are from what I think of as the glory days of American autos (50's-early 70's).

[quagmire]

Times have definitely changed from GM's heyday in the 50's and 60's. At the time, they had over 50% market share with strong competition from Ford and Chrysler, even AMC. They hit an extreme rough patch in the 80's putting out cars that were not up to standards, even at that time. They were taking Oldsmobile's, rebadging them as Cadillac's and adding $5k to the sticker. GM has a tendency to take a good thing to far, similar with the new Lambda triplets. I don't see the need for the Outlook, Acadia, Enclave, and now the Traverse. This kind of rebadging is dangerous in my opinion; if I were running GM, I would drop the Outlook due to slow sales, and make a different kind of crossover for Chevy. The Acadia and Enclave are doing very well, so no need to mess with them. I would also do a complete image rebrand with Buick, as sales on them continue to decline. I would re-introduce Park Avenue, Regal, and LeSabre as those cars sold well even in the last years of life. As for Pontiac, drop the Torrent and do a complete re-design of the G6. It has the goods and style, but with a horribly cheap interior and average drivetrains, they can't compete with Camry, Accord, or even the General's own Malibu. I would also re-introduce Trans-Am to spice up the lineup a bit, even though the new G8 looks promising.

That is what GM is doing. Chevy just released the Traverse which is Chevy's Lambda CUV meant to replace the Trailblazer. Come the next generation the Outlook is dead. The Traverse came because of the death of the Trailblazer. GM had planned to redesign the Trailblazer and Chevy was never meant to get a Lambda. With rising gas prices, GM scrapped the next gen Trailblazer and gave them a Lambda. The Outlook was only greenlighted due to the Lambda program was extremely over budget so they approved it to help recoup the cost.

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/02/0000traverse_chi-(1).jpg

As for Chevy, they are doing well right now. The Malibu has won praise from every magazine I have read so far. The FWD Impala is going away in 2009 or 2010, and supposedly going to be replaced with a new RWD model to compete with Dodge's Charger. Saturn is a bit of a sore spot, with the new Aura and Outlook not selling to expectation. The Aura has the goods, amazing looks, powerful engine, but I guess the Saturn badge scares some people away.

RWD Impala= dead. Thanks to CAFE GM got scared putting a high volume nameplate on a RWD platform. So the next Impala will most likely be on an extended version of the Epsilon II platform. There are still talks of a RWD Chevy so it can remain low volume so it won't effect CAFE under maybe the Chevelle nameplate.

Cadillac is perfectly fine right now. CTS is amazing, Escalade is selling well, and the SRX is doing decent. As for STS and DTS, they are both being replacing in 2010 with a all new sedan, which sounds like a great idea. However, GM is dropping development of a Northstar replacement, so I'm not sure how that will go over. Might start using LS engines, which are pretty damn reliable and have decent fuel economy and wouldn't cost GM so much money to translate into a Caddy.

Cadillac still needs help. Everyone is distracted by the Escalade's and CTS's success that they are blind to the horrible mess that is STS and DTS. Also the poor selling SRX( even though it is a good product. It won C&D's best luxury SUV 3 years in a row). The new CTS is beautiful. 3.6 DI engine producing 304 HP, an amazing interior, and the front end styling is amazing. Now the CTS-V with the LSA producing 550 HP 550 lb of torque is going to give the M5 a run for its money. There lies the other problem with Cadillac. The CTS is confused to which car it competes against. The 3 series or 5 series? Price and feature wise it competes with the 3. Weight, performance, and size wise it competes with the 5. Luckily and hopefully( CAFE!!!!) the Alpha platform will bring a smaller Caddy to compete with the 3 series and then can effectively move the CTS up market.

[ErikCLDR]

See, Toyota can survive on top with 2 car companies- Toyota and Lexus.

GMC is hardly getting by and they have GMC, Chevy, Cadillac, Buick, Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer, Daewoo, Holden, Opel, Vauxhall, Isuzu, and Saab (am I forgetting anyone). What is that 13 car companies?

GMC needs to drop their extra weight. Seriously, why do they try to restore these old car companies whose names have gone to crap. They spend money trying to revolutionize these companies but no one cares. It's the history of poor fit and finish and just the name that hurts their sales I believe.

I dunno about you guys but when ford hits rock bottom I am investing in them. There is no way they'll go out of business. There are too many people employed.

[ryannel2003]

That is what GM is doing. Chevy just released the Traverse which is Chevy's Lambda CUV meant to replace the Trailblazer. Come the next generation the Outlook is dead. The Traverse came because of the death of the Trailblazer. GM had planned to redesign the Trailblazer and Chevy was never meant to get a Lambda. With rising gas prices, GM scrapped the next gen Trailblazer and gave them a Lambda. The Outlook was only greenlighted due to the Lambda program was extremely over budget so they approved it to help recoup the cost.

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/02/0000traverse_chi-(1).jpg

RWD Impala= dead. Thanks to CAFE GM got scared putting a high volume nameplate on a RWD platform. So the next Impala will most likely be on an extended version of the Epsilon II platform. There are still talks of a RWD Chevy so it can remain low volume so it won't effect CAFE under maybe the Chevelle nameplate.

Cadillac still needs help. Everyone is distracted by the Escalade's and CTS's success that they are blind to the horrible mess that is STS and DTS. Also the poor selling SRX( even though it is a good product. It won C&D's best luxury SUV 3 years in a row). The new CTS is beautiful. 3.6 DI engine producing 304 HP, an amazing interior, and the front end styling is amazing. Now the CTS-V with the LSA producing 550 HP 550 lb of torque is going to give the M5 a run for its money. There lies the other problem with Cadillac. The CTS is confused to which car it competes against. The 3 series or 5 series? Price and feature wise it competes with the 3. Weight, performance, and size wise it competes with the 5. Luckily and hopefully( CAFE!!!!) the Alpha platform will bring a smaller Caddy to compete with the 3 series and then can effectively move the CTS up market.

I think GM will be able to pull it off, but it all depends on what the Traverse price is gonna be. From what I read, somewhere between Outlook and Acadia. Personally, the Acadia looks the best in my opinion. But the Chevrolet will most likely have the higher sales due to Chevy being GM's highest selling divison.

Of course, the damn government will kill what was most likely going to be an awesome car. I do like the current Impala, especially in SS form. But, it still doesn't have the handling to match the power. Torque steer on the SS is insane, and it just handles like a big car. It's unfortunate when I think my Camry LE is a better handling car, but then again, the Impala platform dates back to the early 90's.

The STS (in my opinion) was a downgrade from what the Seville STS was of the late 90's. People were too distracted by the RWD and excellent handling to notice the cheap interior or bloated CTS design. I have never been a huge fan of the STS, while I always loved the Seville. Same with DTS; the exterior is better looking, but the interior is too similar to Impala and Lucerne to be worth the $2-3K over the cost of a Lucerne CXS. The SRX has always been a great product, even when the original version had a average interior. With the '07 redesign, it just made that crossover much better. But the public doesn't see how great of a car it is, and it has never sold well.

CTS is amazing. Just sitting inside of one makes me feel like a million bucks. The materials, the design, the execution, and the power just makes it seem like a completely different vehicle from the first generation. The CTS-V also looks kick ass, and that engine is a screamer. But i have never completely understood where Cadillac wants that car to compete: 3 or 5 series category? I believe if (and when) Cadillac brings over the BLS platform from Europe, they'll figure out which goes where.

[quagmire]

^^ Cough Scion cough. ( at Eric)

Opel, Holden, Vauxhall are all fine. They're GM's Australian and European brands which will sell their products here in the US under Pontiac( Holden, CAFE might kill it though) and Saturn(Opel/Vauxhall). Isuzu was never fully owned by GM, but partially owned and then sold off. I can only see Pontiac being killed, Hummer/Saab sold, and removing Buick from NA( Buick is extremely successful in China). GMC won't be killed. Even though GMC are mostly rebadged Chevy's, they are loyal to GMC and brings in money for GM since GMC has a low R&D cost. And look at what happened with Oldsmobile. Again, nothing but dressed up Chevy's, but when GM killed Olds, where did the buyers go to? The imports. GM will lose customers if they kill a brand right now. Hummer is profitable and being positioned as GM's Jeep competitor. Saturn won't be killed because out of GM's homegrown and heritage brands, Saturn has the best image out of all of them( even though it doesn't reflect sales wise).

[ryannel2003]

See, Toyota can survive on top with 2 car companies- Toyota and Lexus.

GMC is hardly getting by and they have GMC, Chevy, Cadillac, Buick, Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer, Daewoo, Holden, Opel, Vauxhall, Isuzu, and Saab (am I forgetting anyone). What is that 13 car companies?

GMC needs to drop their extra weight. Seriously, why do they try to restore these old car companies whose names have gone to crap. They spend money trying to revolutionize these companies but no one cares. It's the history of poor fit and finish and just the name that hurts their sales I believe.

I dunno about you guys but when ford hits rock bottom I am investing in them. There is no way they'll go out of business. There are too many people employed.

Ehhh... as we all know GM isn't too happy with dropping an nameplate that was once profitable. They did themselves a huge disfavor when they dropped Oldsmobile, a company that (I believe) would have done a fine job in today's time, but instead kept around Pontiac or Buick, two companies that aren't doing so hot right now.

[IJ Reilly]

I guess my other question is: Was the glory days of the American auto a product of the American auto industry itself, or rather a byproduct of the American economy in comparison to the rest of the world?

Some of both, I'd say. During the '50s and '60s the US auto industry feasted off of awesome economies of scale, the growing disposable income of the American consumer, the expansion of the interstate highway system and suburbia, and virtually no foreign competition. The oil shocks of the '70s changed all of that forever. The foreign manufacturers were far better prepared to respond to a demand for more fuel-efficient cars, and this is also the period during which the American working class began a long, slow slide into downward mobility. Remarkably, all these decades later, the US manufacturers still haven't quite figured out how to respond to the products offered by the foreign makers.

[blitzkrieg79]

Some of both, I'd say. During the '50s and '60s the US auto industry feasted off of awesome economies of scale, the growing disposable income of the American consumer, the expansion of the interstate highway system and suburbia, and virtually no foreign competition. The oil shocks of the '70s changed all of that forever. The foreign manufacturers were far better prepared to respond to a demand for more fuel-efficient cars, and this is also the period during which the American working class began a long, slow slide into downward mobility. Remarkably, all these decades later, the US manufacturers still haven't quite figured out how to respond to the products offered by the foreign makers.

Pretty much I agree with you, and to answer the original question, I don't think any of the US car makers will ever return to glory days in sense of total market dominance like GM in pre-1970s. They should become profitable within 3-4 years but as far as market share is concerned there is too much competition plus there will be even more of it from China and India. US will have to adjust to it somehow but as IJ Reily mentioned, US manufacturing hasn't really recovered from the 1970s manufacturing attack from Europe and now Asia.

World War II really helped US become the superpower it still is today as it's main land was virtually unaffected by the war (except Pearl Harbor and few Japanese bombs that landed in Cali and Washington state). So while after WW2 most of the world was rebuilding destroyed towns/separated families, US took advantage of it and rebuilt it's economy. I don't think US would be a superpower that it is today if WW2 took a hit on our land like it did in Europe or Asia, I know we live in 21st century and people today are different than people 60 years ago but just take a look at our rebuilding process of New Orleans or WTC, US probably would have fallen apart if it would suffer the damage of WW2 Europe/Asia.

Anyway, back to the topic, US car companies,after they will restructure the UAW contracts, will become profitable again. Toyota/Honda and other non-US automakers that have factories on US soil are profitable because they don't have a burden of Unions. And Ford won't bring European products to USA until the value of dollar will rise and Euro be less competitive against it. As an example, GM imports the new Saturn Astra from Europe at a loss, same thing with Chrysler and Crossfire, another loss. Importing cars from Europe by American companies currently is not cost efficient. And to bring over a platform and set up a factory in US that will produce European models also takes a lot of time and money and might be not as cost efficient considering that Americans do have a bit different car tastes than most Europeans.

[quagmire]

I think GM will be able to pull it off, but it all depends on what the Traverse price is gonna be. From what I read, somewhere between Outlook and Acadia. Personally, the Acadia looks the best in my opinion. But the Chevrolet will most likely have the higher sales due to Chevy being GM's highest selling divison.

The Traverse is supposed to be the cheapest of the bunch. ~$25K. But, that is due to feature stripping. Like it has regular halogens with optional projectors, but no HID's. Where the other Lambda's has projectors standard with HID's optional.

[ryannel2003]

The Traverse is supposed to be the cheapest of the bunch. ~$25K. But, that is due to feature stripping. Like it has regular halogens with optional projectors, but no HID's. Where the other Lambda's has projectors standard with HID's optional.

That sounds a lot more promising than what I had originally heard. We'll see how it does in the market. That class has gotten so confusing its hard to follow what goes where.

[carbonmotion]

America is a mature automotive market. The real question is, who will win in China, India, the Middle East, and Africa. These emerging car markets have the real potential. GM is presently kicking ass on the global front.

[ziwi]

I would think that it would only be possible with a severe paradigm shift. GM or Ford would have to turn the auto industry on their head and that will not be a design thing - it will have to be a power thing a new way to get cars to move that is so far ahead of the competition. That is the only way - so no it will never happen since the corporate espionage and actual possibility of the shift happening are slim to none.

[faintember]

Some of both, I'd say.<snip>Remarkably, all these decades later, the US manufacturers still haven't quite figured out how to respond to the products offered by the foreign makers.I tend to gravitate towards this answer as well. Though the lack of change of American auto makers is shocking. If one of the Big Three popularizes/improves hybrid/alternative vehicles then we may see a true glory days return. I am not holding my breath.

[ChrisA]

The problem is that they are always looking at the nest quarter financial reports. Just 90 days into the future. Short term is the only thing that matters to them. For years and years they have resisted making smaller cars. The reason is that it costs not much more to make a small vs. a large car. (After all they have about the same number of parts.) But buyers will pay more for a larger car. So the large cars are far more profitable to build and sell. They held onto this model for far to long. One way to fix this would be to pay the execs only in stock that does is only vested in 10 years

Another think that hurt the American car campaniles badly was the import quota. They paid congress to pass a quota limiting the number of imported cars. So what the Japanese did when told they could sell only so many cars was to switch to selling much more expensive models. In the long run this turned out to be a gift to the Japanese auto makers because it forced them for move away from enco-boxes to upscale.

[ErikCLDR]

Let me ask you a question...

Would you rather have a buick or a toyota. I'm not specifying models or years. Just a simple question.

[IJ Reilly]

I tend to gravitate towards this answer as well. Though the lack of change of American auto makers is shocking. If one of the Big Three popularizes/improves hybrid/alternative vehicles then we may see a true glory days return. I am not holding my breath.

Another area where the US makers have conceded leadership to the Japanese manufacturers. Lest we forget though, the US auto makers have cup holders nailed. They could sure teach the Asian and European manufacturers some lessons on that design subject.

[carbonmotion]

Let me ask you a question...

Would you rather have a buick or a toyota. I'm not specifying models or years. Just a simple question.

If would only pick a Toyota if the Toyota was a fully loaded Camry or better.

[faintember]

Lest we forget though, the US auto makers have cup holders nailed.When I read this I cued up my iTunes track of the Star Spangled Banner, put my hand over my heart and sang along! Something to be proud of! But seriously, I did try to look up some international drunk driving statistics, just to see if there was a "correlation" between superior US auto cup holders and the inferior foreign ones. Unfortunately I couldn't find many international comparisons via a few google searches.

[quagmire]

Let me ask you a question...

Would you rather have a buick or a toyota. I'm not specifying models or years. Just a simple question.

Reliability wise, Buick. Tied with Lexus for #1. Driving dynamics, neither. Both suck at everything. The only Buick I would buy now would be A) the Chinese Buick Park Avenue and B) the Enclave. Those are some nice looking Buicks.

[ryannel2003]

Let me ask you a question...

Would you rather have a buick or a toyota. I'm not specifying models or years. Just a simple question.

Depends... if I wanted a luxury car, Buick. If I wanted something that people wouldn't laugh at me uncontrollably in, Toyota.

As for Toyota... they don't suck at everything. :rolleyes:

[quagmire]

Depends... if I wanted a luxury car, Buick. If I wanted something that people wouldn't laugh at me uncontrollably in, Toyota.

As for Toyota... they don't suck at everything. :rolleyes:

Name one Toyota currently in production that is actually fun to drive. You can only make the argument for the Camry V6. But, even that will fail. Then again, driving a BMW would sort of skew my expectations. :p

[ryannel2003]

Name one Toyota currently in production that is actually fun to drive. You can only make the argument for the Camry V6. But, even that will fail. Then again, driving a BMW would sort of skew my expectations. :p

Haha, I will give you that. The Camry SE V6 is supposed to be a great compromise between handling and ride. I've personally never driven one, but I hear they are great. But you have to make the Camry better, i'm gonna add an aftermarket TRD swaybar and that will give much better handling in the corners.

As for driving a BMW, yeah i would think that would even sway me a little bit. :D

[FrankBlack]

I owned a Toyota Truck before I became a Sube owner. It was a fun truck to drive, and the right vehicle at the time. If I wanted to own a truck again, I'd go with Toyota. Keep in mind, a truck is not for everyone, and a Toyota 4x4 rides like a,,,well, like a truck.

To answer the OP's original question, my answer is no, U.S. auto makers will never return to the glory days of the 50's and 60's. For the most part, young buyers are simply not buying what they're selling.

As others have noted, people in their 20's do not buy Buicks and Pontiacs. The only people I see driving Buicks are folks in their 60's and up. Pontiac tried to bring back the GTO a few years ago, but it didn't sell well and was dumped.

I've heard that Ford is going to stop selling the Crown victoria to the general public, and it will only be sold to police departments and cab companies. Pretty much the only people buying it now. Anyone know anything about this?

[ErikCLDR]

I've heard that Ford is going to stop selling the Crown victoria to the general public, and it will only be sold to police departments and cab companies. Pretty much the only people buying it now. Anyone know anything about this?

Yup, that's true. They have no plans on revamping the car. The dodge magnum/charger are now being offered to police departments and I know the state police here in CT are starting to use them.

[quagmire]

Yup, that's true. They have no plans on revamping the car. The dodge magnum/charger are now being offered to police departments and I know the state police here in CT are starting to use them.

The Magnum won't last long as it is dead. Out of the products they have killed, only one deserved it and that is the PT. The Pacifica was decent, just needed a refresh/redesign. Crossfire was sweet. Viper, enough said. Magnum, ultimate sleeper( along with the '04-'06 GTO).

[SactoGuy18]

Surprisingly, one automaker that could really make a comeback in the USA is Ford.

Ford makes excellent trucks, and with the likelihood of Ford using a lot of turbodiesel engines that meet the EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions standard, that could save sales of the F-150 truck for many years to come. Also, I think Ford is very likely going to essentially go to worldwide platforms for all their models, which essentially means over the next 5-7 years the Fiesta, Focus and Mondeo models sold in Europe will be assembled here in the USA also. With interest in smaller cars here in the USA, even the upcoming second-generation Ford Ka could be sold here.

[biturbomunkie]

The Pacifica was decent

that's the problem. the automobile industry is very competitive. DCX knew that soccer moms would prefer SUVs with car-like handling. however, they decided to come up with a product that looks like a bloated minivan. pacifica's interior is better than decent, though.

Crossfire was sweet.

imho, it is an ill-fated car from the start. while i happen to think the controversial exterior styling is acceptable as long as it's a SRT-6 with the right price, no one in his/her right mind will pay so much $$$ for this crossdresser with hand-me-down last gen SLK platform, MB reliability and chrysler's nameplate. with a name that signifies the DCX marriage, the company chose to cut corners and reuse R170's parts for the entire interior to remind people that this supposedly halo car is indeed an OLD SLK. when you get into a mark V, you know it's a VW, not an old TT based on the A4 platform. when you get into a crossdresser, you are instantly greeted by silver hard plastic with paint that'll chip off eventually, and big old knobs and buttons that characterized every MB's center console in the late '90s. when a halo vehicle needed to be sold on overstock.com, you know its days are numbered.

Magnum, ultimate sleeper( along with the '04-'06 GTO).

RS4/6 is a sleeper, a hearse on steroid aka magnum is not a sleeper. also, GM made the GTO.

[quagmire]

RS4/6 is a sleeper, a hearse on steroid aka magnum is not a sleeper. also, GM made the GTO.

I know the GTO was made by GM. Just stating that they are sleepers. Sure a car person that knows anything about cars will know how fast they are. But, when it comes to the avg. person, they will see a wagon and think it will be a slow POS. Then with the GTO, they will see a 90's like Grand Prix and again underestimate it. The only thing that will give these people clues is the rumble of the Hemi and LS V8's.

[dogtanian]

http://www.stevemarshallfordcampbellriver.com/images/07fordf150/07F150_tease.jpg

in answer to the op's question... probably not, esp with these things

[quagmire]

http://www.stevemarshallfordcampbellriver.com/images/07fordf150/07F150_tease.jpg

in answer to the op's question... probably not, esp with these things

While people buy pick ups for the hell of it and not use it for its designed purpose, doesn't mean the F-150 is what is wrong with the US automakers. More appropriate vehicles to show what is wrong with US automakers are these:

http://www.autounleashed.com/images/2008_ford_focus_us.jpg

http://thumbs.automart.com/imgs/ag/automart/autodata/pictures/VEHICLE/2008/Chrysler/thumb/80CDGEG1-E0420031530011000.jpg

http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop-460x345/2009_Pontiac_Vibe_7_5w.jpg

[mr.light]

Surprisingly, one automaker that could really make a comeback in the USA is Ford.

Ford makes excellent trucks, and with the likelihood of Ford using a lot of turbodiesel engines that meet the EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions standard, that could save sales of the F-150 truck for many years to come. Also, I think Ford is very likely going to essentially go to worldwide platforms for all their models, which essentially means over the next 5-7 years the Fiesta, Focus and Mondeo models sold in Europe will be assembled here in the USA also. With interest in smaller cars here in the USA, even the upcoming second-generation Ford Ka could be sold here.

I agree. The transition to worldwide platforms will be key in turning this around. Ford does indeed make excellent trucks. The Tundra has always been a copy of the F150. At one point they looked so similar I thought you could exchange panels. To say that the F !50 is what is wrong with the North American Auto industry is ludicrous at best. If that were the case the Japanese Makers would not even have pickups on the market.

[JesseJames]

You are right about that new Ford Focus. I don't know what Ford was thinking about that. Maybe just to fill that category with a product.
As for GM, I think they are slowly turning things around. But think about this, I do believe now that even Hyundai is beating them at their own game. Remember when owning a Hyundai was pretty much a joke? Who's laughing now?
A friend of mine owned one a while back. I wasn't too impressed at the time but I thought it was peppy little runabout. Solid means of transportation. I knew Hyundai was on the rise. Now they have a state-of-the-art design and manufacturing works here and they mean business. I am sure Toyota and Honda are looking over their shoulders.

[4JNA]

Can US automakers ever return to glory days?

not with high school grads making $60+ an hour. not going to happen.