My views on what a computer is, just got flipped...

[bluedoggiant]

Today, I think of computers differently. We are learning about computers in class, and well, they seem much different now. I know understand how the binary system works and stuff, I still find it astonishing how a processor works, its really something.

[Jade Cambell]

Yes, human beings really are the strangest of all creatures. We are infinitely times more intelligent than elephants or chickens, and yet we are the only animal that wages wars against each other and commits mass murder. Chickens are more civilized and enlightened than us in many ways, and yet it would take another ten billion years before a chicken could evolve to the point of inventing a micro processor.

[iMpathetic]

Yes, human beings really are the strangest of all creatures. We are infinitely times more intelligent than elephants or chickens, and yet we are the only animal that wages wars against each other and commits mass murder. Chickens are more civilized and enlightened than us in many ways, and yet it would take another ten billion years before a chicken could evolve to the point of inventing a micro processor.

That was one of the most creepy experiences of my short life. But, good, and CREEPY, point.

[motulist]

we are the only animal that wages wars against each other and commits mass murder.

That's not true at all. There are tons of species that kill each other in large numbers and with great cruelty and malice. Packs of animals will routinely ambush and kill all the members of another pack merely because they are territorial and don't like the fact that the other pack is walking on their turf. Many species have incredibly brutal mating rituals where they horribly maul one another, and sometimes they maul one another even just so they can big the big tough guy in town.

Humans are exactly the same.

[juanm]

That's not true at all. There are tons of species that kill each other in large numbers and with great cruelty and malice. Packs of animals will routinely ambush and kill all the members of another pack merely because they are territorial and don't like the fact that the other pack is walking on their turf. Many species have incredibly brutal mating rituals where they horribly maul one another, and sometimes they maul one another even just so they can big the big tough guy in town.

Humans are exactly the same.

But you've got to admit that doing so while at the same time being rational is a remarkable (although not admirable) feat! :p

[Sun Baked]

Wow, skip the "me bang rocks" and the Luddites and go straight to making this a thread fit for the political section.

[MikeTheC]

Wow, skip the "me bang rocks" and the Luddites and go straight to making this a thread fit for the political section.
Here, here. Tell me about it.

[bluedoggiant]

Wow. The evolution of this thread is funny:p

Continue.

[pianoman]

what amazes me is that 15 years ago my family had a computer with 2MB of total disk space. today, i can fit 2000 times that on a device smaller than my thumb.

[motulist]

what amazes me is that 15 years ago my family had a computer with 2MB of total disk space. today, i can fit 2000 times that on a device smaller than my thumb.

I think you're confused about something, because in 1993 hard disks were already WAY bigger than 2 MB. Perhaps you're thinking 2 MB of RAM?

[MikeTheC]

Let's see...

My first hard drive I bought in 1988. It was a Seagate 5 1/4" SCSI-interfaced external hard drive, and was 80MB in size. (Paid about $650 for it, BTW.)

By the very early 90s, 100+MB HDDs were relatively common, IIRC.

My first Mac, a Mac Plus, came with 1MB of RAM, which I upgraded around the same time I got the HDD to a whopping 4MB. And yes, I had to clip that resistor. Talk about living on the edge!

[pianoman]

I think you're confused about something, because in 1993 hard disks were already WAY bigger than 2 MB. Perhaps you're thinking 2 MB of RAM?

no i definitely mean 2MB hard disk. it must've been before 1993. i'm not good with estimating time back that far.

[4JNA]

Wow. The evolution of this thread is funny:p

Continue.

there is no evolution. only jesus. :confused: :o :p

just kidding. please evolve as you will... me, i'm headed out to peel some fishy stickers off my neighbors mini-van.

[MikeTheC]

no i definitely mean 2MB hard disk. it must've been before 1993. i'm not good with estimating time back that far.
Well, by 1993 it would have been attached via SCSI, assuming this is a Mac we're talking about. To my knowledge, there were no sub 10MB SCSI HDDs out there in the retail chain.

In fact, I *think* the first external HDDs Apple offered for Macs were 10MB or 20MB units that connected via the external floppy drive port.

What kind of computer was this? How did the HDD connect? Tell us more! Inquiring minds want to know.

[iMpathetic]

Well, by 1993 it would have been attached via SCSI, assuming this is a Mac we're talking about. To my knowledge, there were no sub 10MB SCSI HDDs out there in the retail chain.

In fact, I *think* the first external HDDs Apple offered for Macs were 10MB or 20MB units that connected via the external floppy drive port.

What kind of computer was this? How did the HDD connect? Tell us more! Inquiring minds want to know.

Maybe it was an eMachines. :p

[ErikCLDR]

Yes, human beings really are the strangest of all creatures. We are infinitely times more intelligent than elephants or chickens, and yet we are the only animal that wages wars against each other and commits mass murder. Chickens are more civilized and enlightened than us in many ways, and yet it would take another ten billion years before a chicken could evolve to the point of inventing a micro processor.

Chickens don't have lawsuits over the natural pecking order.

Maybe we are just some alien's computer program running. And we are all complex and can make our own choices, or maybe they make our decisions for us? Maybe all other animals are just programmed to do simple things, over and over again.

[John Jacob]

it would take another ten billion years before a chicken could evolve to the point of inventing a micro processor.

Certainly not ten billion years. It could easily happen in fifty million years or so.

The factor controlling intelligence is generally considered to be the brain/body mass ratio (ratio of brain size to body size). Our ancestors fifty million years ago (primitive mammals) would have had a brain/body ratio similar to that of a chicken, and yet we have evolved from them. Similarly, a chicken could evolve to a comparable level of intelligence in another fifty million years or so. Of course, that doesn't mean it will happen.

[Zwhaler]

Certainly not ten billion years. It could easily happen in fifty million years or so.

The factor controlling intelligence is generally considered to be the brain/body mass ratio (ratio of brain size to body size). Our ancestors fifty million years ago (primitive mammals) would have had a brain/body ratio similar to that of a chicken, and yet we have evolved from them. Similarly, a chicken could evolve to a comparable level of intelligence in another fifty million years or so. Of course, that doesn't mean it will happen.

Yeah, but chickens aren't mammals, so things might go much differently than they did for us mammals.

[Phat Elvis]

Maybe we are just some alien's computer program running. And we are all complex and can make our own choices, or maybe they make our decisions for us? Maybe all other animals are just programmed to do simple things, over and over again.

Douglas Adams? Is that you? I thought you died?

[ctt1wbw]

How many years would it take for those same chickens to invent a macbook air with a firewire drive? That's what *I* want to know. :D

[bluedoggiant]

Now this thread is really getting funny:D:D


Continue.:cool:

[pianoman]

What kind of computer was this? How did the HDD connect? Tell us more! Inquiring minds want to know.

it was not a Mac. i don't remember how the HDD connected - this was long before i became interested in/knowledgeable about computers. i wish i could remember but i don't!

[sushi]

Chickens are more civilized and enlightened than us in many ways
And they taste great, depending on how they are prepared! :p

[PlaceofDis]

just imagine all the work that the os does that we don't see to get all the apps running smoothly. even windows. its quite an achievement when you realize that everything is seen on the hard drive and by the process as either a 1 or a 0 in some order.

[7on]

I thought the part that connects to the monitor is filled with leperchans...:confused:

[galganog]

If you looked a billon chickens in a room with a billion computers for 5 years would they write the greatest novel in the world?

A: No way all you would get is chicken scratch!

[bluedoggiant]

just imagine all the work that the os does that we don't see to get all the apps running smoothly. even windows. its quite an achievement when you realize that everything is seen on the hard drive and by the process as either a 1 or a 0 in some order.

God yes. We had to learn about that and actually do so. I believe its 0 means off, and 1 means on. Like for instance, the number "11" in "computer" language is "1011". Please correct me if im incorrect. number "12" would be "1100"


128___64___32___16 ___ 8 ___ 4 ___ 2 ___1

Using the number's above can you see how I did it? remember, 0 means off, and 1 means on, see how for instance i made 12 into 1100. Took me a while to get it, but, thats binary code.

I can't believe how this thread about me talking about my achievement of learning the binary code, and my learning of how the computer started, turned in to a fight about chickens:confused::confused:

Oh well, its quite funny.

Continue :p

[ryannel2003]

Interestingly enough, I learned binary last week. It's very interesting, and it was so cool to learn that pictures aren't actually transmitted as a picture. It's just 0's and 1's. Pretty damn awesome. Now we are learning to use Windows 98 SE with no drivers, and we have to figure out how to get internet connection without any help from a CD or the teacher. It's gonna become interesting... :rolleyes:

[PlaceofDis]

God yes. We had to learn about that and actually do so. I believe its 0 means off, and 1 means on. Like for instance, the number "11" in "computer" language is "1011". Please correct me if im incorrect. number "12" would be "1100"


128___64___32___16 ___ 8 ___ 4 ___ 2 ___1

Using the number's above can you see how I did it? remember, 0 means off, and 1 means on, see how for instance i made 12 into 1100. Took me a while to get it, but, thats binary code.

i think its a bit longer than that. but i'm not sure i don't know binary, just the concept of it. but i used a 'translator' and

11 = 00110001 00110001

linky (http://www.paulschou.com/tools/xlate/)

[bartelby]

s, and yet we are the only animal that wages wars against each other and commits mass murder. .

:rolleyes:

I haven't read all the thread but you are totally wrong.

When a male lion takes Alpha male spot he'll kill any cubs in the pride.

Chimpanzees will attack rival troops over territory.

Female dolphins will attack and kill another's calf, for reasons unknown (at the moment).

[bluedoggiant]

i think its a bit longer than that. but i'm not sure i don't know binary, just the concept of it. but i used a 'translator' and

11 = 00110001 00110001

linky (http://www.paulschou.com/tools/xlate/)

Sorry. That looks incorrect.

Anyone else?

Ok, below this text in white ill be writing how (highlight)

So 1 means on, and 0 means off. so how did i get "12" for example. well using the number's above. what number's do i add to get twelve? it would be 8 and 4. is the starting number, its the largest that isn't larger than 12. so 8 is on, which makes it "1". "4" is on as well, so its another "1". But since 8 is the starting number in this example, all the number that are smaller than it is part of the "code". so "2" and "1". are off since they are not included in the equation to make 12. so they are "0" which all together, is how i got 1100 as for 12.

Did you understand that?

[ChrisA]

Today, I think of computers differently. We are learning about computers in class, and well, they seem much different now. I know understand how the binary system works and stuff, I still find it astonishing how a processor works, its really something.

Keep with it. Every time you _think_ you know how it works then in the next class they go down on more layer and you learn that what you've been told was the "simplified version".

For example, At one point I thought I knew what a digital signal was, a voltage on a wire that was either "high" or " low" with low typically ground and hight at Vcc. Then later I find that there are no digital signals, there are only analog voltages and wire is not "wire" but a "transmition line" that has a characteristic impedance. It doesn't end there either....

[Antares]

Since people are writing HDD, is there a difference between Hard Disk Drive (HDD) and Hard Drive (HD)?

Remember this (very) old Chicken Computer page?

http://www.beeker.net/humor/jokearchive/msg00142.html

[Counterfit]

No, most people just drop the "Disk".

There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Ones that understand binary, and ones that don't.



1+1=10

[PlaceofDis]

Since people are writing HDD, is there a difference between Hard Disk Drive (HDD) and Hard Drive (HD)?

no, people write HDD to distinguish it from HD which is used mainly for High Definition.



and i don't know enough about binary to know what i'm talking about. :p

[ChrisA]

what amazes me is that 15 years ago my family had a computer with 2MB of total disk space. today, i can fit 2000 times that on a device smaller than my thumb.

Back in the 1970's there was a computer at UCLA in the Comp Sci department. The machine had a full megabyte of RAM. This was in about 1974. Not many people had
ever seen a machine with 1 MB RAM. The box that held the RAM was a 10 foot per side cube. There were eight sections inside the cube that were on wheels, Like RAM sticks but so large they came on there own set of pneumatic tires. They kept a 9th spare section in the room. I think I only knew of one person who had his own computer in 1975.

Now each of us likey owns three dozen computers. They are inside cars, microwave ovens, automatic door openers and even my company ID badge has one embedded.

[whooleytoo]

what amazes me is that 15 years ago my family had a computer with 2MB of total disk space. today, i can fit 2000 times that on a device smaller than my thumb.

Wow. Amazing how much bigger thumbs have grown in 15 years.

Isn't evolution great.. :p

[bluedoggiant]

No, most people just drop the "Disk".

There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Ones that understand binary, and ones that don't.



1+1=10

That's one way of explaining it, but confusing.




and i don't know enough about binary to know what i'm talking about. :p

You didn't see my post, i explained how!!

[todd2000]

Interestingly enough, I learned binary last week. It's very interesting, and it was so cool to learn that pictures aren't actually transmitted as a picture. It's just 0's and 1's. Pretty damn awesome. Now we are learning to use Windows 98 SE with no drivers, and we have to figure out how to get internet connection without any help from a CD or the teacher. It's gonna become interesting... :rolleyes:

So you have to write your own drivers for the Modem, and/or NIC Card?? That seems a tad excessive. What kind of class is this?

[atszyman]

Binary is really simple when you realize how all number systems work

134 = 10^2*1+10^1*3+10^0*4

so the number

xyz in base w is

x*w^2+y*w^1+z*w^0

available digits for x, y, and z go from 0 through w-1, so binary (base 2) gets 0 and 1, decimal (base 10) gets 0-9, octal gets 0-7, and so on.

11 decimal is 1011 binary, B in hexadecimal, 13 in octal, etc.

i think its a bit longer than that. but i'm not sure i don't know binary, just the concept of it. but i used a 'translator' and

11 = 00110001 00110001

linky (http://www.paulschou.com/tools/xlate/)

Your translator is going from text (ASCII characters) to binary so every character is 8 bits (1 byte) and the ASCII codes for the numbers 0-9 is "0011" appended to the left of the 4-bit binary value for that digit. which in the case of 11 is "0001" and "0001"

[bluedoggiant]

Binary is really simple when you realize how all number systems work

134 = 10^2*1+10^1*3+10^0*4

so the number

xyz in base w is

x*w^2+y*w^1+z*w^0

available digits for x, y, and z go from 0 through w-1, so binary (base 2) gets 0 and 1, decimal (base 10) gets 0-9, octal gets 0-7, and so on.

11 decimal is 1011 binary, B in hexadecimal, 13 in octal, etc.



Your translator is going from text (ASCII characters) to binary so every character is 8 bits (1 byte) and the ASCII codes for the numbers 0-9 is "0011" appended to the left of the 4-bit binary value for that digit. which in the case of 11 is "0001" and "0001"

I guess nobody read my full description:mad:

128___64___32___16 ___ 8 ___ 4 ___ 2 ___1 (there are more numbers, this is just basic)

So 1 means on, and 0 means off. so how did i get "12" for example. well using the number's above. what number's do i add to get twelve? it would be 8 and 4. is the starting number, its the largest that isn't larger than 12. so 8 is on, which makes it "1". "4" is on as well, so its another "1". But since 8 is the starting number in this example, all the number that are smaller than it is part of the "code". so "2" and "1". are off since they are not included in the equation to make 12. so they are "0" which all together, is how i got 1100 as for 12.


I mean i posted it not long ago. its on this page, just look up, its in white.

[atszyman]

I guess nobody read my full description:mad:

128___64___32___16 ___ 8 ___ 4 ___ 2 ___1 (there are more numbers, this is just basic)

So 1 means on, and 0 means off. so how did i get "12" for example. well using the number's above. what number's do i add to get twelve? it would be 8 and 4. is the starting number, its the largest that isn't larger than 12. so 8 is on, which makes it "1". "4" is on as well, so its another "1". But since 8 is the starting number in this example, all the number that are smaller than it is part of the "code". so "2" and "1". are off since they are not included in the equation to make 12. so they are "0" which all together, is how i got 1100 as for 12.


I mean i posted it not long ago. its on this page, just look up, its in white.

I read it, and understood it, but of course I've been doing digital design work for the past 10+ years, binary has never been problematic. I was just offering a little more in-depth perspective, and relating it back to the decimal system everyone else is familiar with in order to help clarify some people's confusion with an alternate explanation.

[whooleytoo]

I think the easiest way to explain binary, is to explain it with old-style abacuses. (For those people old enough to remember them!)

Remember how when you were counting with an abacus, every time you reached nine 'beads' and added one more, you'd push the 9 back, and add 1 instead to the next, higher "row"? (9 + 1 = 10, or 99 + 1 = 100)

Well, in binary, when you've reached one bead, and add one more, you push the one back, and add 1 to the next, higher row (1 + 1 = 10, or 11 + 1 = 100)

In octal, when you have 7 beads, and add 1, you push the 7 back, and add 1 to the higher row: (7 + 1 = 10, 77 + 1 = 100)

Hexadecimal is the same principle, but since it uses letters as well as digits I'm not going to confuse people any further.

Still though.. peaceful chickens, eh?

[atszyman]

Hexadecimal is the same principle, but since it uses letters as well as digits I'm not going to confuse people any further.


That's when you have to get past the definitions of numbers and letters and how we're used to seeing them in the standard decimal system, we could just as easily use . | V triangle, square, pentagon, ... etc to represent numbers and use that. The reason hex had to use letters is there is not a single digit representaion of our decimal values 10-15 that can easily be applied for hexadecimal.

The polygon system works up through about base 11 when the shapes all start to look like circles....

[ntrigue]

Yes, human beings really are the strangest of all creatures. We are infinitely times more intelligent than elephants or chickens, and yet we are the only animal that wages wars against each other and commits mass murder. Chickens are more civilized and enlightened than us in many ways, and yet it would take another ten billion years before a chicken could evolve to the point of inventing a micro processor.

Are you campaigning? You offer an incomplete sentence in reaction to the OP's post.

[whooleytoo]

That's when you have to get past the definitions of numbers and letters and how we're used to seeing them in the standard decimal system, we could just as easily use . | V triangle, square, pentagon, ... etc to represent numbers and use that. The reason hex had to use letters is there is not a single digit representaion of our decimal values 10-15 that can easily be applied for hexadecimal.

The polygon system works up through about base 11 when the shapes all start to look like circles....

I blame evolution for limiting us to just 10 fingers and thus burdening us with the primitive decimal system. Not to mention shoe-makers for preventing us using base-20 instead of base-10! ;)

Isn't it funny how 'natural' we now are maths in decimal; if given the number 3471 we can immediately visualise it, but if told that number was in base-9 we'd all be reaching for calculators as non-decimal maths just confuses us.

[atszyman]

Isn't it funny how 'natural' we now are maths in decimal; if given the number 3471 we can immediately visualise it, but if told that number was in base-9 we'd all be reaching for calculators as non-decimal maths just confuses us.

A common system does have it's advantages. Without one I could tell you that 3471 is base 8 or greater, but that gives me 3 options if we only use numeric digits, if there are other characters/symbols involved for all I know it's base 1 billion....

[Judo]

If you looked a billon chickens in a room with a billion computers for 5 years would they write the greatest novel in the world?

A: No way all you would get is chicken scratch!

or Windows ME.


I'm still bitter about that OS.

[sushi]

I guess nobody read my full description:mad:
<snip>
Yes, we read your description.

It all depends on the system that you are using. In your case, you are showing how to encode 12 (Base10) using 8 binary digits.

So 00001100 would be correct.

However, if you were representing 12 (Base10) in BCD (Binary Coded Decimal) format, it would be:

0001 0010

Your translator is going from text (ASCII characters) to binary so every character is 8 bits (1 byte) and the ASCII codes for the numbers 0-9 is "0011" appended to the left of the 4-bit binary value for that digit. which in the case of 11 is "0001" and "0001"
To add, here are the numbers 0-9 in ASCII code:

0 --> 00110000
1 --> 00110001
2 --> 00110010
3 --> 00110011
4 --> 00110100
5 --> 00110101
6 --> 00110110
7 --> 00110111
8 --> 00111000
9 --> 00111001

Binary math and manipulations are so cool. So is programming in Assembly language. :)

There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Ones that understand binary, and ones that don't.
One of my favorite jokes.

A long time ago, I used to wear a sticker that said, "Byte my Baud". :D

Remember this (very) old Chicken Computer page?

http://www.beeker.net/humor/jokearchive/msg00142.html
Pretty good! :)

[Cassie]

Now we are learning to use Windows 98 SE with no drivers, and we have to figure out how to get internet connection without any help from a CD or the teacher. It's gonna become interesting... :rolleyes:

You better not plan to graduate if that's your final exam. :p

[sushi]

You better not plan to graduate if that's your final exam. :p
That's cold!

[Mammoth]

what amazes me is that 15 years ago my family had a computer with 2MB of total disk space. today, i can fit 2000 times that on a device smaller than my thumb.

15 years ago my mom had a 2GB hard drive in her Dell and I weighed like 7 lbs. :cool:

[Zwhaler]

I wonder how long it would take a bunch of chickens to make a Powerbook G5

sorry I had to say it

[gnasher729]

i think its a bit longer than that. but i'm not sure i don't know binary, just the concept of it. but i used a 'translator' and

11 = 00110001 00110001

linky (http://www.paulschou.com/tools/xlate/)

That is something different. You didn't translate the number eleven into binary, you translated the text "11". Here you have two characters, each displayed as "1". In the ASCII code (and in many other codes), the code for digits "0" to "9" are 48 to 57 (letters "A" to "Z" are 65 to 90, "a" to "z" are 97 to 122 and so on). So "11" is twice the code 49. And 49 in binary is 00110001.

[atszyman]

Binary math and manipulations are so cool. So is programming in Assembly language. :)

Yeah, it gets really fun when you get into signed arithmetic and finally realize that if you create a binary adder that works then signed and unsigned arithmetic both work without modification (provided you're using standard 2s compliment notation) and know whether or not the numbers are supposed to be signed. I've had to convince my coworkers on multiple occasions that a counter that had no knowledge of sign worked in both directions if the increment value was set as positive or negative since it's all a matter of interpretation of the results.

I've always been a person that has preferred the lowest level I can get to for programming, luckily right now I program logic devices so I'm at the bit manipulation stage, if I have to move up hopefully I can get to play with Assembly language, especially once you start playing with processor simulators and pipelining to make sure as many operational units on a processor are active every clock cycle.