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View Full Version : New Longhorn Look Leaked!


Jonathan Amend
Oct 25, 2003, 11:21 PM
Check out http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=14694&category=main to get an idea of what Longhorn will look like (no, this doesn't have the new Aero stuff yet, although Microsoft is supposed to show that off at the PDC). I think it's pretty damned sexy, although I must admit it looks a wee bit like brushed metal. I especially like how the menu bar and address bar were integrated into the caption bar in the new Internet Explorer.

whocares
Oct 25, 2003, 11:30 PM
Four letters:
U-G-L-Y!

Jonathan Amend
Oct 25, 2003, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by whocares
Four letters:
U-G-L-Y!

Well I like it very much... and sorry for spelling the thread name wrong (Longhorn). There doesn't seem to be a way to fix that.

whocares
Oct 25, 2003, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan Amend
Well I like it very much... and sorry for spelling the thread name wrong (Longhorn). There doesn't seem to be a way to fix that.

Well it's subjective, I guess.
Though they have greatly improved the look, it's still too much "in your face" for my liking. I can just imagine all those pop-up "help" messages ŕ la office companion. Damn they annoy me :mad:


missed a few words ;)

P-Worm
Oct 25, 2003, 11:35 PM
I thought they were going to drop the whole PlaymobileŽ color scheme. Why does it still look like it belongs on Saturday morning cartoon shows? :confused:

P-Worm

shecky
Oct 25, 2003, 11:43 PM
thats repulsive looking. i don't think its a matter of opinion, thats the definition of ugly. i can only assume that will be toned way the hell down by the time its released.

Independence
Oct 25, 2003, 11:51 PM
windows seems to be getting worse. the interface just seems too complicated. things look more organized in KDE.

longhorn is something i'll never use. i'll be all mac/linux by the time it rolls around.

Powerbook G5
Oct 26, 2003, 12:07 AM
I swear, Windows just looks worse and worse with each revision. At least 3.1 had character. I miss those days...OS/2 was so much better, though.

beg_ne
Oct 26, 2003, 12:11 AM
Microsoft, king of wasted pixels. Does every window really need 200 pixles wasted. And whats with that lame sidebar still? Nothing like a 400 pixel wide sidebar for wow, of all things an analog clock...because I guess a digital one that takes up 1/20 of the space isn't good enough.

Why do all the windows have a giant blue back button or whatever? And what exactly does a star represent on the right side?

How are you supposed to get any work done with an OS like that? It's laughable to see all the windoze drones on that site get so excited, i guess they never actually have to do anything important with their computer other than download and install warezed versions of Photoshop so they can make "cool" lense flare graphics.

fraeone
Oct 26, 2003, 12:33 AM
Well that is ugly as hell, but in all fairness, the final product will probably barely resemble that. XP didn't get it's final (also ugly) look until late in the beta cycle, and Longhorn probably won't see daylight until 2006.

iJon
Oct 26, 2003, 01:04 AM
I think I am going to throw this on a slave drive and see how well it works, and I am assuming not very well.

iJon

alset
Oct 26, 2003, 01:08 AM
I have to admit that I actually think it's pretty catchy (for Windows). It's not for me, but I can see that many people will love it.

Dan

VIREBEL661
Oct 26, 2003, 01:32 AM
Looks like a mutant cross between XP and win2K.... I dunno, not at all impressive to me.

SeaFox
Oct 26, 2003, 01:47 AM
Looks awfully metallic. Not that it's a bad thing. It's a nice alternative to the garish colors in XP.

I like how much more muted the default grass wallpaper is. I guess It's supposed to be prarie grass (since I'm in Kansas I should know) but it looks like the picture in XP except the lawn is old and long,

...and brown and dead.

The new IE: YUCK! Simplified looking interface, buttons too big. If that's how it looks in the final release I am going to make Mozilla Firebird my default browser for Windows, despite the features I miss from IE.

mangoduck
Oct 26, 2003, 01:06 AM
they had to swipe the brushed metal, didn't they. aqua wasn't good enough for them. and i thought xp was a real screen space hog... damn. what the hell is that sidebar for? there's a sidebar in each window already, plus a taskbar to cram things in. why is this needed? probably the same reason only a third of a window displays what's in a given directory. why is there a picture in the sidebar? just sitting there? it's not enough to have something pretty on your desktop, there has to be a second picture in a space where nothing can be moved over it? are they ever going to implement a real graphics subsystem?? this is lame when compared to quartz. ms, the clowns of interface design. even after forgiving that it's an alpha, i'd bet it works just as bad as it looks.

worst. os. ever.

end of rant.

voicegy
Oct 26, 2003, 01:21 AM
One word: Wronghorn.:rolleyes:

dr_fate
Oct 26, 2003, 01:27 AM
Pretty nasty looking. You'd think they'd have learned from Xp that trying to be stylish a 'la Apple is not Microsoft's strongsuit. Come to think of it, I don't think microsoft has a strongsuit...

solvs
Oct 26, 2003, 02:15 AM
Sorry dude, but it doesn't look good. It looks terrible. Looks like my cheapy PC will be keeping 2000 on it for a little while longer. You can skin it all you want, ugly is ugly. My work PC is skinned to look more 2000, but it still bugs me.

If M$ would make a good OS, believe me, I'd use it.

BTW, I was at Night of the Panther in Bellevue, WA last night. I talked to a couple of guys who work at M$... they were buying Macs. Talking about walking around Redmond wearing their Apple shirts. Complaining about how much Windows sucks. :D

Yeah, I thought it was funny too.

One of the guys from Apple HQ was there, talking about the work they had done on 10.3 and showing us all some cool tricks. 10.2 was ok, but OMG 10.3 looks so amazing. Expose was reason enough, but THAT is how you do an OS.

edwinedillonjr
Oct 26, 2003, 03:50 AM
Nice find on the pictures, and I do appreciate them.

HOWEVER.

It amazes me how MS can package the same microkernel 12 different ways with their never-ending versions of windows. By the way, what IS the REAL difference between xp home and xp pro?

Longhorn doesnt look any different from XP with the exception of visual enhacements. I'm guessing usability still sucks.

Sure, there may be better things under the hood, but I view windows and pc's as a 83 datsun with 850 horsepower. Sure it's fast, but driving it just sucks. All this great hardware but the OS, well... you know.

edesignuk
Oct 26, 2003, 03:57 AM
This is the oldest news I have seen posted here in a long time :rolleyes:

robbieduncan
Oct 26, 2003, 04:09 AM
If we ignore the aesthetics and actually look at the functional aspect of this design then it's pretty bad. On every other version of Windows the menu bar appears directly below the title bar. Take a look a the explorer screenshot. The menu bar is 200px below the title bar. What is all that rubbish between? Why change the habits of a lifetime? I think that this look will probably change a lot before release anyway.

qoa
Oct 26, 2003, 04:11 AM
Hi. I signed up just to leave a comment.

To everyone slamming that UI,
It's a placeholder. It's not the UI they are going to use. It's just dressed up to not look like xp. It might be ugly, but it's a little early (2006 release date) to start slamming them like a few of your are. (mangoduck)
I think the sidebar is just as stupid as the next guy. But who knows.

Machead III
Oct 26, 2003, 04:20 AM
It's like Windows XP cross bred its self and had a deformed child that decided to repeatedly dunk it's head in low quality metallic paint.

One word: sucks...

byron_hinson
Oct 26, 2003, 04:34 AM
It certainly looks ugly to me right now, but then again in all fairness it is a couple of years away from final release and I'm sure there are some good things in it. Lets hope IE's look changes from this one as it is worryingly going the route of MSN Explorer. But it does look like they are trying to go the brushed metal style way of Apple, the only problem being that Apple designers have style, Microsoft's don't.

benixau
Oct 26, 2003, 06:57 AM
MS is making buisness for themselves.
REASONING:

1) MS makes mice
2) MS makes windows
3) Browse web and need to scroll 100 times more
4) Scroll wheel needs/wants replacing earlier
5) Go buy a new MS mouse with scroll wheel
6) GoTo item 3

5300cs
Oct 26, 2003, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by edwinedillonjr
...By the way, what IS the REAL difference between xp home and xp pro?


Home has some networking essentials taken out of it that cripple it in certain network environments (I'm pretty sure. Anyone wanna back me up?) Pro has all the bells and whistles.

Back in the days of NT 4, there was Server and Workstation. Someone found a little registry hack that would magically turn NT 4 Workstation into Server (Workstation being a lot cheaper.) A lot of people were pissed that WS & Server were bascially the same thing, so m$ yanked out some junk from XP Pro and called it Home.

Anyone remember W2K Home edition? I know there was one...

The windows series reminds me of Street Fighter II series- they just keep adding junk to it to make it look new & cool, but under the hood it's the same crap.

GulGnu
Oct 26, 2003, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by Jonathan Amend
Check out http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=14694&category=main to get an idea of what Longhorn will look like (no, this doesn't have the new Aero stuff yet, although Microsoft is supposed to show that off at the PDC). I think it's pretty damned sexy, although I must admit it looks a wee bit like brushed metal. I especially like how the menu bar and address bar were integrated into the caption bar in the new Internet Explorer.

Commenting on the looks of an OS two years from release is meaningless. My guess is that the current GUI is just a modded XP GUI, used as a "placeholder" - at this stage of development, focus is probably on the kernel and more "under the hood" type stuff. Well, that's my 2 cents at least.

Regards, GulGnu

PS.
Picking up Panther today - will be pretty sweet. =) No 2-year wait here, nope =P
DS.

kwajo.com
Oct 26, 2003, 09:02 AM
yeah, i don't think we should judge them quite yet, the GUI is not final at all. also, they are actually overhauling the base of windows, so it may end up better than you expect. what I am worried about is the "user-centric" design where stuff pops up all over the screen to help you, that and the implementation of DRM and product activation, some of it sounds pretty scary.


did you read some of the posts below the article, they really say alot about windows users, and why some of them would never go mac:
"cuz XP is stable.... stable = boring! I dunno bout you but my PC has gotten extra boring lately... news like this and new software def makes me loving being on my PC again... ...when your PC runs 50 days without reeboot or crash then that sux!"

see what I mean :rolleyes:

Powerbook G5
Oct 26, 2003, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by kwajo.com
yeah, i don't think we should judge them quite yet, the GUI is not final at all. also, they are actually overhauling the base of windows, so it may end up better than you expect. what I am worried about is the "user-centric" design where stuff pops up all over the screen to help you, that and the implementation of DRM and product activation, some of it sounds pretty scary.


did you read some of the posts below the article, they really say alot about windows users, and why some of them would never go mac:
"cuz XP is stable.... stable = boring! I dunno bout you but my PC has gotten extra boring lately... news like this and new software def makes me loving being on my PC again... ...when your PC runs 50 days without reeboot or crash then that sux!"

see what I mean :rolleyes:

So some people consider unstable crap to be an added feature of Windows instead of a drawback?

kwajo.com
Oct 26, 2003, 09:38 AM
i guess I have been living a boring life for years then, going outside, out with friends on the weekend instead of sitting fixing my computer troubles til the wee small hours of the morning, damn, I better get some "excitement":rolleyes:

LethalWolfe
Oct 26, 2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by 5300cs
Home has some networking essentials taken out of it that cripple it in certain network environments (I'm pretty sure. Anyone wanna back me up?) Pro has all the bells and whistles.

Back in the days of NT 4, there was Server and Workstation. Someone found a little registry hack that would magically turn NT 4 Workstation into Server (Workstation being a lot cheaper.) A lot of people were pissed that WS & Server were bascially the same thing, so m$ yanked out some junk from XP Pro and called it Home.

Anyone remember W2K Home edition? I know there was one...

The windows series reminds me of Street Fighter II series- they just keep adding junk to it to make it look new & cool, but under the hood it's the same crap.

Are you sure there was a Win2k Home Edition? Windows ME was what was shipping on home computers and Win2k Pro and Server were directed at corporate/business users. But enough users started using Win2k Pro as their "daily use" OS that software companies had to make sure they supported it. Of course there are still a number of games that won't run/run correctly on Win2k.


Lethal

iJon
Oct 26, 2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by edwinedillonjr
Nice find on the pictures, and I do appreciate them.

HOWEVER.

It amazes me how MS can package the same microkernel 12 different ways with their never-ending versions of windows. By the way, what IS the REAL difference between xp home and xp pro?

Longhorn doesnt look any different from XP with the exception of visual enhacements. I'm guessing usability still sucks.

Sure, there may be better things under the hood, but I view windows and pc's as a 83 datsun with 850 horsepower. Sure it's fast, but driving it just sucks. All this great hardware but the OS, well... you know. there isnt much difference in the operating system, just more pro features. like more networking support and dual processor support. thats why home is fine for most users and they can never tell the difference.

iJon

beefcake
Oct 26, 2003, 04:02 PM
K.I.S.S.

Microsoft needs to get back to the basics before I look into getting a PC again.

Jonathan Amend
Oct 26, 2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by mangoduck
they had to swipe the brushed metal, didn't they. aqua wasn't good enough for them. and i thought xp was a real screen space hog... damn. what the hell is that sidebar for? there's a sidebar in each window already, plus a taskbar to cram things in. why is this needed? probably the same reason only a third of a window displays what's in a given directory. why is there a picture in the sidebar? just sitting there? it's not enough to have something pretty on your desktop, there has to be a second picture in a space where nothing can be moved over it? are they ever going to implement a real graphics subsystem?? this is lame when compared to quartz. ms, the clowns of interface design. even after forgiving that it's an alpha, i'd bet it works just as bad as it looks.

worst. os. ever.

end of rant.

1) The sidebar will replace the taskbar by default, but for now the sidebar can't show task buttons yet so both are turned on at the same time.

2) The Explorer window is in thumbnail browsing mode, if you were to switch it to details a list of files would replace mose of the window.

3) The picture (slideshow) in the sidebar is just a placeholder until actually sidebar objects (sort of like widgets) are made.

4) They will impliment a new GUI-composing system that uses DirectX. It will be part of the new Aero interface and although it it was disabled in this build you can see demonstration screenshots of it at http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/longhorn_preview_2003.asp .

iJon
Oct 26, 2003, 04:22 PM
ill tell you guys about it later tonight after i install it, that is if everything goes well :)

iJon

Powerbook G5
Oct 26, 2003, 04:50 PM
Keep us posted, I'd like to know how this shapes up. My family is still using PCs and XP isn't the best performing OS, for sure. If Longhorn does become a decent OS, maybe it will be worth the money for an upgrade.

iJon
Oct 26, 2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Keep us posted, I'd like to know how this shapes up. My family is still using PCs and XP isn't the best performing OS, for sure. If Longhorn does become a decent OS, maybe it will be worth the money for an upgrade.
i like xp alot, but i think that is mainly because it isnt my main machine. i have a very nice pc strictly for games and it always updated no crap is put on there. and because of that it never crashes and performs very well. now on my mac os x machine i break loose and send it to hell and it still wont crash.

iJon

Powerbook G5
Oct 26, 2003, 05:00 PM
On our 2.8 GHz Dell, XP starts off pretty well, but it slows down and gets lagged real easily once you start doing multiple tasks and install software/customize it as if it were your primary system. For me, I keep it bare bones with all bells and whistles turned off, a slim registry, as little installed as possible, and the only things I have running are Norton Antivirus, Folding, the APC monitor, my router software, and whatever game I am using at the time.

As far as Longhorn goes, I just hope it ends up being as good as it is hyped up to be. Previous versions of Windows were not worth the $200+ price tag for upgrade, and upgrades were beyond annoying and impossible to do. I remember going from Windows 95 to Windows 98...that took me 4 1/2 hours to install and take care of a conflict with my video card, my audio card, and my ethernet. After that, it took a couple of more hours just to install all of my programs again and get to where I wanted.

iJon
Oct 26, 2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Powerbook G5
On our 2.8 GHz Dell, XP starts off pretty well, but it slows down and gets lagged real easily once you start doing multiple tasks and install software/customize it as if it were your primary system. For me, I keep it bare bones with all bells and whistles turned off, a slim registry, as little installed as possible, and the only things I have running are Norton Antivirus, Folding, the APC monitor, my router software, and whatever game I am using at the time.

As far as Longhorn goes, I just hope it ends up being as good as it is hyped up to be. Previous versions of Windows were not worth the $200+ price tag for upgrade, and upgrades were beyond annoying and impossible to do. I remember going from Windows 95 to Windows 98...that took me 4 1/2 hours to install and take care of a conflict with my video card, my audio card, and my ethernet. After that, it took a couple of more hours just to install all of my programs again and get to where I wanted.
yeah my pc is mainly my bittorrent machine and now my itunes machine becuse it less stuff i have to have open on my mac right next to me. and when i play a game on it. only thing its used for.

iJon

FightTheFuture
Oct 26, 2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Powerbook G5
If Longhorn does become a decent OS, maybe it will be worth the money for an upgrade.

2006 - thats quite a long time to plan for an upgrade man! personally, i think it looks ok. much better then xp. but its no os X. most windows users are a bit too naive to look at other operating systems.

it may be building a theme that lots of windows users thought were innovating. i hope micro$oft sticks with it. it'll at least look totally different from the mac os. the sidebar looks quite annoying, but it may make more sense in the end - what i'm afraid of is option overload. "make new folder here, add or remove programs here, folders, detailed view, search, stop, ah! :o

i know it would never happen, but it would be nice for apple to showcase and advertise os X 10.5 - or whichever it'll be by that time, before longhorn were to be released. it would dispell all of the "look the windows are animating! and the icons are so interesting to look at! and everything is right there in the sidebar!" aesthetic responses.

i liked one of the replies on the message board "For people like me who likes to fix stuff, when your PC runs 50 days without reeboot or crash then that sux!" ha! it is actually kinda fun to fix pcs every now and then. makes me feel like a genious! :p

Powerbook G5
Oct 26, 2003, 05:09 PM
I'd like to see Apple come up with "OS 12 Preview" with full voice activated holographic user interface to see how people react. "So is the Finder still brushed metal?" Remember when Steve said with 10.0 that Aqua will make you want to lick your screen? Well now you finally can!

Macco
Oct 26, 2003, 06:52 PM
Maybe by the time Longhorn is released, we'll have a two-button mouse.







Nah, I'm being too optimistic.

iJon
Oct 26, 2003, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Macco
Maybe by the time Longhorn is released, we'll have a two-button mouse.







Nah, I'm being too optimistic.
yeah i know, longhorn will never come out.

iJon

Jonathan Amend
Oct 26, 2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by iJon
yeah i know, longhorn will never come out.

iJon

I don't know what people have against a release date of 2006... has it ever occured to anyone that 2003 is just about over and late 2005/early 2006 isn't that far away for a new version of Windows?

iJon
Oct 26, 2003, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan Amend
I don't know what people have against a release date of 2006... has it ever occured to anyone that 2003 is just about over and late 2005/early 2006 isn't that far away for a new version of Windows?
no the funny thing is that microsoft keeps pushing back the date. thats why i wouldnt get to excited about the 2006 date quite yet.

iJon

krossfyter
Oct 26, 2003, 07:19 PM
is longhorn going to be a 64 bit os?

Jonathan Amend
Oct 26, 2003, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by iJon
no the funny thing is that microsoft keeps pushing back the date. thats why i wouldnt get to excited about the 2006 date quite yet.

iJon

AMD's Hammer line of processors was announced in late 1999 and wasn't supposed to ship much later but the Athlon 64 only came out in September of this year and it still kicks everything else's ass =)

Jonathan Amend
Oct 26, 2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by krossfyter
is longhorn going to be a 64 bit os?

There will be both a 32 bit and a 64 bit version of it.

iJon
Oct 26, 2003, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan Amend
AMD's Hammer line of processors was announced in late 1999 and wasn't supposed to ship much later but the Athlon 64 only came out in September of this year and it still kicks everything else's ass =)
you know what jonny boy, i looked through most of your posts and almost all of them were against the mac and how longhorn rules and amd is superior to everything. may i ask you your goal from being on this site?

iJon

Jonathan Amend
Oct 26, 2003, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by iJon
you know what jonny boy, i looked through most of your posts and almost all of them were against the mac and how longhorn rules and amd is superior to everything. may i ask you your goal from being on this site?

iJon

I already stated my intentions in a previous post, which you should have seen if you already went through them.

From http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41726, quoting myself:

Originally posted by myself
No, although that would be nice =)
I preferer PCs but I have nothing against Macs and I think both platforms have their strengths and weaknesses. I also don't think it would hurt these forums if someone were to have different opinions... Likemindedness doesn't make good conversation.

Edit: forgot a / in my vB code

iJon
Oct 26, 2003, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan Amend
I already stated my intentions in a previous post, which you should have seen if you already went through them.

From http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41726, quoting myself:



Edit: forgot a / in my vB code
whatever floats your boat, but when your on a mac site and all you talk about is amd and longhorn no one really cares, and its a waste of our time as well as yours. it would be like me going to my acura forum and saying my mom's bmw z3 is better than my tl (but its not :) ) although i have nothin against honda. why dont you go show a amd forum your love for amd.

iJon

Jonathan Amend
Oct 26, 2003, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by iJon
whatever floats your boat, but when your on a mac site and all you talk about is amd and longhorn no one really cares, and its a waste of our time as well as yours. it would be like me going to my acura forum and saying my mom's bmw z3 is better than my tl (but its not :) ) although i have nothin against honda. why dont you go show a amd forum your love for amd.

iJon

Am I not allowed to mention anything about AMD? I've given credit to Intel and the Pentium 4 where it was due, and I think mentioning a liking of AMD will stop such idiocies as "Wintel". Which reminds me, back in the early 90s it was AMD who was allowed to put the "Made for Windows" logo onto their chips, not Intel.

iJon
Oct 26, 2003, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan Amend
Am I not allowed to mention anything about AMD? I've given credit to Intel and the Pentium 4 where it was due, and I think mentioning a liking of AMD will stop such idiocies as "Wintel". Which reminds me, back in the early 90s it was AMD who was allowed to put the "Made for Windows" logo onto their chips, not Intel.
who cares but that wasnt my point. the fact is you are on a mac site and all you talk about it pc's. of course i cant stop you nor do i care. i was simply asking why do you come to a mac fan site to shed your love on amd pc's intel and longhorn. do you do it because you know questions like this will come up.

iJon

Jonathan Amend
Oct 26, 2003, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by iJon
who cares but that wasnt my point. the fact is you are on a mac site and all you talk about it pc's. of course i cant stop you nor do i care. i was simply asking why do you come to a mac fan site to shed your love on amd pc's intel and longhorn. do you do it because you know questions like this will come up.

iJon

Telling people that I like AMD is not my intent, and I made this Longhorn thread to gather Mac user's opinions on the new look. Frankly, I'm not surprised that most of them hate it, but they did make some good points (for example, I didn't notice just how much space the new caption bar wasted). I post on these forums to contradict those who are obviously and factually wrong, as well as to have interesting arguments with others that might know something I don't, since arguing is both fun and enlightening. I doubt I'd find any interesting conversations on a pc fan site (if such a thing even exists), as everyone would have the same general opinions as I do.

Powerbook G5
Oct 26, 2003, 08:16 PM
I don't mind having a few PC lovers on these boards as long as they don't troll. I dislike the PC platform as much as most others do, but you have to admit that AMD has always had some pretty impressive technology and their new processors really show that. As far as Windows goes, I just won't hold my breath. I've used Windows since switching from DOS to 3.1, and I'll tell you, from my experience, it hasn't really made much of an advancement to qualify it as "new" with any upgrade they've done...at least with Longhorn, Microsoft is finally letting go of a lot of the crap it's been recycling and trying something "new" for a change. As far as the release date...it seems like it will be released the same time Halo 2 will be released. Hasn't that game been pushed back a good 4 or 5 times already?

FightTheFuture
Oct 26, 2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan Amend
Frankly, I'm not surprised that most of them hate it, but they did make some good points (for example, I didn't notice just how much space the new caption bar wasted)

hey! i said i liked it! it does look pretty good. i thought xp looked and felt pretty good too. yeah, that was before i used osx, but good nonetheless. at least M$ is putting some effort into design and feel of an operating system, instead of simply revamping a design they already had in place.

I post on these forums to contradict those who are obviously and factually wrong, as well as to have interesting arguments with others that might know something I don't, since arguing is both fun and enlightening.

now, i don't think mac users are ignorant of what windows has to offer. most of them have to work on both systems on a daily basis. so its important for us to see what is progressing. and its not as if longhorn is a final build yet. so we can't be factually wrong about what is in development for windows. isn't it possible they may trash the sidebar? or the goofy little options all over the place? who knows!

and i agree that arguing is fun and enlightening, but that is only if it is based on a good argument. stating facts and backing them up with evidence is good. now is it true about the tech specs for longhorn though? i heard it required 1 gig of memory, 1ghz processor speed, and a 128bit video card! whoah!:eek: :eek: as for Halo 2, i think its supposed to be released on xbox first.

Macmaniac
Oct 26, 2003, 09:20 PM
Honstly I'm not going to bash here, after looking at Longhorn I must say I do see some attempts to look more Mac OS Xish. the color scheme looks familiar.
I also don't like how space is so poorly utilized, the whole UI looks very daunting to use.
It looks a lot like XP, and I must say overall I'm not impressed, I'm not going to bash but it is ugly.
No wonder their taking so long their waiting to get ideas from OS X.

Jagga
Oct 26, 2003, 11:59 PM
I really liked Mr. Job's presentation of a Panther vs. M$ XP and other OS desktops related to animals that just eat all day long waiting to be milked. Seems that just like M$ OS implementations over the years, 200 Pro, ME, XP Home, XP Pro, WIndows Server 2003 they all just eat more and more HD space along with resource space - selling to the masses just waiting to milk them; and their time in productivity. Believe me I know been using Microsoft products at every iteration (except NT versions) incl 2000Pro right now -hoping to upgrade to XP Pro as its the best yet and since I just started my new employment will be the very last - unless one used for work.

What exactly is a "Troll" when it comes to forums i.e. habits things they say or do?? I'm really not sure. I've heard the word thrown around so often just like 13-19 yr old avid gamers playing Counter Strike or Rogue Spear saying "oh man I just got gay'd or that's gay, he gay'd me.....blah blah blah" - almost mindless to hear it, but would like to know if it truely has any real meaning. (PS not saying anyone's mindless)

The skin or UIQ that M$ is planning to use IS going to look exactly like that. another site has some details mentioned on this site in another thread. The underpinnings will allow for new API's and will require certain hardware display's to take full advantage of it. Looks' like to fully enjoy Longhorn you'll need a 21" display no less, and when it finally is released to replace XP Pro/Home you'll need a 60" Plasma or something like it.

Personally, I think that it sucks. The side bar is just like the task bar & quick launch combined and is unecessary! It truely yet harribly, yes that's Harribly not horribly, imitates the dock.:p

mangoduck
Oct 27, 2003, 12:45 AM
To everyone slamming that UI,
It's a placeholder. It's not the UI they are going to use. It's just dressed up to not look like xp. It might be ugly, but it's a little early (2006 release date) to start slamming them like a few of your are. (mangoduck)
I think the sidebar is just as stupid as the next guy. But who knows.

i admit i was a bit harsh out of the gate, but such is the nature of a rant. however, this is the the second or third set of screenshots of longhorn that i've seen so far, each sporting a different appearance. how many times do they need to change it during alpha? don't they have other things to worry about before cosmetics? and why change the look of something if only so it doesn't look like the last product? says a lot of their marketing tactics.

1) The sidebar will replace the taskbar by default, but for now the sidebar can't show task buttons yet so both are turned on at the same time.

2) The Explorer window is in thumbnail browsing mode, if you were to switch it to details a list of files would replace mose of the window.

3) The picture (slideshow) in the sidebar is just a placeholder until actually sidebar objects (sort of like widgets) are made.

4) They will impliment a new GUI-composing system that uses DirectX. It will be part of the new Aero interface and although it it was disabled in this build you can see demonstration screenshots of it at http://www.winsupersite.com/showcas...review_2003.asp .

1. i don't see why a sidebar is needed as a separate element to begin with. can the taskbar not be further modified into the same thing while retaining options to keep it small and out of the way?

2. thumbnails, ok. but still, you have the title bar, a toolbar (that's way too tall for the functionality it offers), a menu bar, an info bar (huge!) that gives the same type of info as os x does in column view, and a space on the left side where the previous information currently resides in xp. not only are all these elements present at once and unnecessarily kept separate (the last 2 should be consolidated into one pane), but everything is big and clunky and circus-like. excessive, no?

3. this sort of function could be better accomplished as konfabulator does on the mac.

4. good to see they're taking this seriously (finally). looks like they're going about it the same way as apple by offloading graphic intensive tasks to appropriate hardware via directx. with a major difference - i give you this snippet from the same page:

The bare minimum Longhorn system will have to be able to display at least 1024 x 768 with 32-bit color, and it must include a hardware accelerated 3D video card with at least 64 MB of RAM. But this is the base requirement: To take advantage of the fun eye candy Microsoft has planned, you'll need advanced video hardware with at least 128 MB of RAM.

...vs the 32 megs (actually only 16) needed for quartz extreme. transforms and transparency are easy in 3d, but it says nothing of the quality of the images they're making flap around. have they developed anything underneath this that resembles display postscript? is there full alpha transparency and accurate (pdf quality, cleartype doesn't cut it) font rendering? quartz had this and more even before "extreme" came along.

i don't bash only to bash. if they can make a respectable interface and display system - professional, not fisher price - then hooray for them. but professional this is not.

krossfyter
Oct 27, 2003, 01:13 AM
whos fighting in here??


:p

qoa
Oct 27, 2003, 01:24 AM
Well, if they handed out a "beta of a new OS version" and it looked like the ugly classic windows or playschool xp after they got done bragging about that aero UI it would kind of look foolish. It's just a place holder. I wouldn't want to show off what it looked like either the way how the stylexp skinners and windows blinds skinners grab every screenshot they make and turn it into a skin. :rolleyes:

sparks9
Oct 27, 2003, 12:02 PM
Microsoft seems to be following Apple's colour style.
I don't think it's a coincidense that Longhorn is metallic.

Powerbook G5
Oct 27, 2003, 12:44 PM
Is it really supposed to be metallic? If it is, then it's a really ugly metallic skin they are using.

Jonathan Amend
Oct 27, 2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by sparks9
Microsoft seems to be following Apple's colour style.
I don't think it's a coincidense that Longhorn is metallic.

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Is it really supposed to be metallic? If it is, then it's a really ugly metallic skin they are using.

The new look is not metallic. The new look is called "slate" but I'd say it looks more like graphite (which is also not a metal).

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
...vs the 32 megs (actually only 16) needed for quartz extreme. transforms and transparency are easy in 3d, but it says nothing of the quality of the images they're making flap around. have they developed anything underneath this that resembles display postscript? is there full alpha transparency and accurate (pdf quality, cleartype doesn't cut it) font rendering? quartz had this and more even before "extreme" came along.


The mimimum requirements for Longhorn's new graphics suggest that you need a Radeon or a GeForce to run properly, which isn't really all that much. Chances are you can also turn Aero off to make Longhorn run on older hardware (My P166 is below Microsoft's minimum requirements for XP but I'm typing this post on it). Read the article more carefully, those aren't images flying around, but movie clips being played in real time. Windows doesn't use postscript and pdf is rarely used for anything (we hate having to install Acrobate Reader just as much as QuickTime). Ever since Windows 98 and Me, a lot of the Windows shell's components are entirely done in HTML. I think cleartype is pretty good at what it does, and vectored true type fonts can scale without limits. Windows 2000 and XP have full alpha transparency support, it just isn't used very much since it's not processed by the video card, making it slow. A feature which Longhorn's Aero will have that Quartz doesn't is scaling. All of the elements on the screen will be vectors instead of bitmaps so you can make things the same proportional size on a 60" plasma screen at a high resolution as a 17" at 1024x768 without anything pixelating.

wowoah
Oct 27, 2003, 03:53 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, but did anyone else think it was funny that the guy who posted the screenshots felt it necessary to post one of the Ctrl-Alt-Delete screen? Maybe he felt that since Windows users spend so much time there, they might as well start getting acquainted with it :D

Rower_CPU
Oct 27, 2003, 04:00 PM
Hmmm, graphite sounds familiar, Jonathan. ;)

manitoubalck
Oct 27, 2003, 04:15 PM
This Longhorn story has been floating around for quite a while and I'm still finding it hard to get a straight story.

I am under the assumption that longhorn is a 32-bit operating system? is this true.

Either way 'Windows XP 64 for Athlon 64' which is now in beta looks to be more of a milestone for the company than longhorn which has been in alpha for years.

Lizzard
Oct 27, 2003, 04:18 PM
I am a Windows user and i do think it's sad that Microsoft opted to copy OSX GUI.

Just look at the boot screenshots, just like OSX boots and there are several other things.

It's boring....

Jonathan Amend
Oct 27, 2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Hmmm, graphite sounds familiar, Jonathan. ;)

Please fill me in... I'm not a regular Mac user so my knowledge of its history has a few gaps in it (from what google tells me, it's the worst shade of iMac, ever).

Originally posted by manitoubalck
This Longhorn story has been floating around for quite a while and I'm still finding it hard to get a straight story.

I am under the assumption that longhorn is a 32-bit operating system? is this true.

Either way 'Windows XP 64 for Athlon 64' which is now in beta looks to be more of a milestone for the company than longhorn which has been in alpha for years.

I can't be 100% sure of this, but Longhorn will most likely have both a 32 bit and a 64 bit edition, since Intel probably won't even have any consumer 64 bit chips out by the time Longhorn ships. I don't know where you heard that Longhorn has been under developement for several years... the first alpha to be leaked was build 3683 and stage m3 (milestone 3) of the alpha process (it got the 3683 from the Windows Server 2003 build it was based on). It only leaked a few months ago and Microsoft has since bumped the build numbers to 4000+ to distance it from the Windows Server 2003 tree.

Originally posted by Lizzard
I am a Windows user and i do think it's sad that Microsoft opted to copy OSX GUI.

Just look at the boot screenshots, just like OSX boots and there are several other things.

It's boring....

Windows has booted with a scrolling bar ever since 95. "Slate" does look a bit like brushed metal but there are distinct differences (for one, it's not metallic, and second, it's not brushed). I don't see how Microsoft copied Apple's look before either, as Luna (Windows XP blue) doesn't look anything like Aqua. It's not like Apple got a general patent on "not grey".

iJon
Oct 27, 2003, 05:42 PM
longhorn being leaked a couple of months ago. i had an early build almost a year ago on my pc. it sucked so i took it off.

iJon

Rower_CPU
Oct 27, 2003, 05:46 PM
Graphite is both an iMac color as well as an appearance "theme" for the OS X GUI.

manitoubalck
Oct 27, 2003, 06:42 PM
So do I hear right, Longhorn is 32-bit with some 64-bit extensions like Panther for the apple?

benixau
Oct 27, 2003, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Graphite is both an iMac color as well as an appearance "theme" for the OS X GUI.

and any advanced uesr of os x will probably use graphite for the scheme and as a background. Well, I do and i do video + image editing so the greys dont interfere (not that it matters much on the pro apps).

manitoubalck
Oct 27, 2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I'd like to see Apple come up with "OS 12 Preview" with full voice activated holographic user interface to see how people react. "So is the Finder still brushed metal?" Remember when Steve said with 10.0 that Aqua will make you want to lick your screen? Well now you finally can!

An interesting concept, however unlikley

Jagga
Oct 27, 2003, 07:28 PM
A little more info on Longhorn, and why I was dissing it. This site seems to update regularly on the conference: Windows Network (http://www.winnetmag.com/windowspaulthurrott/Article/ArticleID/40623/windowspaulthurrott_40623.html) .

A qoute: Well, we've spent several hours playing with Longhorn build 4051, and while we're still not overly impressed--tomorrow's Gates keynote better kill or these guys have some explaining to do--we have at least gotten the gist of what's going on in this build. First, it's a dog on any system with less than 512 MB of RAM, so consider that a base amount (up from 256 in Windows XP). The new content aggregator Libraries are more usable in this build than in previous alphas, and it's clear that a lot of what we're seeing now are just placeholders for future refinements. For example, you can dynamic scale the icons in any Explorer window, like you can in Mac OS X: There's just one difference: Longhorn's icons are currently the junky old bitmapped versions we've all used before and they don't scale well at all. We think the new Aero UI will fix that. Contacts are now integrated directly into the file system, which makes sense when you consider the file system's new database capabilities. The digital image stuff is very much enhanced with simple image red eye removal and quick fix features in Image Preview, and a new zooming mode in Paint (yes paint) that makes that app truly usable. Oddly, Outlook Express 7 has been dramatically improved to more closely resemble MSN 8.5, and Internet Explorer 6.05 (which will surely be at least version 7 in the final build) includes pop-up ad blocking and a download manager.

512MB of memory MINIMUM that's Bloated nasty nachos eating M$. Integrating contacts into the file system of the OS; Hmm that also sounds familiar to what Apple has already done. I guess the only "innovation" to speak of would be We're getting updates on Microsoft's platform strategy, Web services architecture, Visual Studio .NET, Dynamic Systems Initiative (DSI), and Security. Well except for the security things, lol. I'm hoping that M$ efforts into Visual Studio .NET would prompt Apple further into XML into programming language; then again XCODE looks like the Shiznit!

applemacdude
Oct 27, 2003, 07:45 PM
Yuck!

Jonathan Amend
Oct 27, 2003, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by manitoubalck
So do I hear right, Longhorn is 32-bit with some 64-bit extensions like Panther for the apple?

No. There will be two seperate editions of Longhorn, as there are of Windows XP (actually, there's a 64 bit edition for the Itanium and a 64 bit edition for the Athlon 64, which makes it three).

Originally posted by Jagga
A little more info on Longhorn, and why I was dissing it. This site seems to update regularly on the conference: Windows Network (http://www.winnetmag.com/windowspaulthurrott/Article/ArticleID/40623/windowspaulthurrott_40623.html) .

A qoute:

512MB of memory MINIMUM that's Bloated nasty nachos eating M$. Integrating contacts into the file system of the OS; Hmm that also sounds familiar to what Apple has already done. I guess the only "innovation" to speak of would be Well except for the security things, lol. I'm hoping that M$ efforts into Visual Studio .NET would prompt Apple further into XML into programming language; then again XCODE looks like the Shiznit!

Windows XP runs optimaly with 256 MB of ram, but it works with as little as 64 MB. Microsoft is only starting to experiment with Longhorn and optimization isn't on the top of their list right now. Apple lost the right to call Microsoft products bloated, since XP is usuable with 64 MB of ram while Mac OS X has a minimum of 128 MB. Don't forget, Longhorn is coming out in 2006, by which having gigs-of-ram will hopefully be widespread thanks to 64-bitness. And what has Apple already done? They tried a database-driven file system in the mid 80s but it was cancelled. Mac OS X still uses a completely flat file system.

Jagga
Oct 27, 2003, 11:09 PM
Actually there will be various editions:

1st something like XP Home/Pro, then an update for Server 2003, then an AMD IA-86 with 64-bit extensions, then a pure 64-bit version, and lastly, one for TabletPC (not the 2004 but later) = all in Longhorn fashion.

just junk. thats it for me.

rhpenguin
Oct 28, 2003, 01:57 AM
The look is a definate improvement over XP. I think that there is still a lot of things that need polishing (beta tested Whistler AKA XP) and it wasnt very polished till roughly beta 2. I would assume that they will iron it out and make it look atleast better that xp does. Its just odd that there is themes for xp that look better than what microsoft could do.

One other thing is for sure it really looks like Microsoft is taking their time and working this one out right. I think they are making a lot of moves in the right direction.

Give me OS X with aqua and smoothstripes anyday though.

aethier
Oct 28, 2003, 05:32 AM
Hmm, Microsoft does not seem to talk about its "Palladium" feature Longhorn will have built in. Is it because they do not want you to know how limited your computing experience will be with Longhorn, after all witht that feature the DRM, is highly implimented.

aethier

suzerain
Oct 28, 2003, 01:51 PM
OK...three things.

(1) The use of space makes me cringe. It seems like things were just thrown on the screen hapharzedly. I can only guess that this UI is ************, and that it will go through many more iterations. Still, a first shot from a UI designer ought to be better than this.

(2) Can anyone tell me what the deal is with the lack of Antialiased fonts? Is it a user preference, or has Microsoft just not implemented it system-wide? Because it makes the whole OS look so clunky and 1998. I take antialiased fonts as a given these days; using my XP box really makes the designer in me cringe.

(3) Can you imagine what Mac OS X will be like by 2006? Sheesh. Apple's so much better poised to make improvements, since the whole OS is designed to be modular and easily updateable from a programming perspective.

Cheers!

Jonathan Amend
Oct 28, 2003, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by aethier
Hmm, Microsoft does not seem to talk about its "Palladium" feature Longhorn will have built in. Is it because they do not want you to know how limited your computing experience will be with Longhorn, after all witht that feature the DRM, is highly implimented.

aethier

Actually, Microsoft put it on the list of 7 major enhancements in Longhorn that they released 2 weeks ago. Palladium won't limit your computer experience. It is designed to stop malicious code from running on your computer (as in, viruses) so all future programs will either have to be signed by Microsoft/Verisign or a trusted third party or you yourself will have to trust it. Unfortunately, since Windows is the most widespread OS out there, it is the target of most hackers, script kiddies, and virus writers. Microsoft has learned its lesson of such things as previously giving user accounts full privileges (like "root") by default and not restricting what programs can and can't do to the system. Palladium will be no more of nuisance that having to give users the rights to run some applications or logging in as/impersonating root to change certain system settings or installing certain programs. DRM is also a good thing, as it limits piracy when properly implemented.

aethier
Oct 28, 2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan Amend
. DRM is also a good thing, as it limits piracy when properly implemented.

You do not seem to think so, at school, you constantly say iTunes music store is pointless to PC users, due to KazAa. You are one of the last people to support DRM. not to mention all the otther ***** *** *****

aethier

Jonathan Amend
Oct 28, 2003, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by suzerain
OK...three things.

(1) The use of space makes me cringe. It seems like things were just thrown on the screen hapharzedly. I can only guess that this UI is ************, and that it will go through many more iterations. Still, a first shot from a UI designer ought to be better than this.

(2) Can anyone tell me what the deal is with the lack of Antialiased fonts? Is it a user preference, or has Microsoft just not implemented it system-wide? Because it makes the whole OS look so clunky and 1998. I take antialiased fonts as a given these days; using my XP box really makes the designer in me cringe.

(3) Can you imagine what Mac OS X will be like by 2006? Sheesh. Apple's so much better poised to make improvements, since the whole OS is designed to be modular and easily updateable from a programming perspective.

Cheers!

1. This is already the second theme of Longhorn, and I doubt it will be the last. Windows XP also had a theme during Beta 1 which was supposed to be kept until the end but then in Beta 2 Luna came along.

2. Both Windows XP and Longhorn have "anti-aliased" fonts, except Microsoft called it ClearType. It is (for now) disabled by default, but you can enable it by going to display properties > appearance > effects and setting "Use the following method to smooth edges of screen fonts" to ClearType.

3. I'm guessing, since it's two years away, that you'll have Mac OS 10.5 and that it will have 300 (2 x 150, according to Apple) new features... and it will only cost you around 2 x $129 USD.

Originally posted by aethier
You do not seem to think so, at school, you constantly say iTunes music store is pointless to PC users, due to KazAa. You are one of the last people to support DRM. not to mention all the otther ***** *** *****

aethier

Yes, I do prefer Kazaa, but that's because current implementations of DRM aren't all that... I still have the CDs to most of my MP3s, and I plan on buying those to which I don't. iTMS doesn't even work yet in Canada and I'm not aware of any alternatives (maybe Napster 2.0 will be friendly to the people of the north). I also disagree with having to download bulky and slow media players (iTunes, QuickTime) which think they have to be integrated into every part of the Windows system just to support the formats of a company which likes to "Think Different". WMA was a DRM standard (and not closed, contrary to what most people believe) before iTMS came around, but god forbid Apple should use it, being made by the evil company known as Microsoft and all...

Rower_CPU
Oct 28, 2003, 03:17 PM
Please provide some info about WMA as an "open standard" from one of the standards groups to back up your claim.

Jonathan Amend
Oct 28, 2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Please provide some info about WMA as an "open standard" from one of the standards groups to back up your claim.

I didn't say it was an open standard, but instead that it was public and free to use by anyone that wants to.

the_mole1314
Oct 28, 2003, 04:39 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that some of those images looks REALLY photoshoped? Look at the registration screen and the boot!

Rower_CPU
Oct 28, 2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan Amend
I didn't say it was an open standard, but instead that it was public and free to use by anyone that wants to.

You said: "WMA was a DRM standard (and not closed, contrary to what most people believe)".

Not closed equals...?

WMA is a closed standard owned by one company, and cannot be advanced by the contributions of others and can be changed at any time without anyone else's input. The reason we have the MPEG, IEEE, etc. groups is to agree upon formats, distribution etc. of standards. MS cannot declare standards on their own.

aethier
Oct 28, 2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan Amend



3. I'm guessing, since it's two years away, that you'll have Mac OS 10.5 and that it will have 300 (2 x 150, according to Apple) new features... and it will only cost you around 2 x $129 USD.



Well 300 new features, in two years is not too bad if you ask me..

Yes, I do prefer Kazaa, but that's because current implementations of DRM aren't all that... I still have the CDs to most of my MP3s, and I plan on buying those to which I don't. iTMS doesn't even work yet in Canada and I'm not aware of any alternatives (maybe Napster 2.0 will be friendly to the people of the north). I also disagree with having to download bulky and slow media players (iTunes, QuickTime) which think they have to be integrated into every part of the Windows system just to support the formats of a company which likes to "Think Different". WMA was a DRM standard (and not closed, contrary to what most people believe) before iTMS came around, but god forbid Apple should use it, being made by the evil company known as Microsoft and all...

yess... iTunes, and QuickTime, are two very bulky, and slow (/sarcasm) iTunes on Windows, is like a god, compaired to Windows Media Player, that is one crappy very bulky (the PC version) piece of software if you ask me, and a lot of other people.

aethier

Jonathan Amend
Oct 28, 2003, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by the_mole1314
Am I the only one who thinks that some of those images looks REALLY photoshoped? Look at the registration screen and the boot!

You're the only one... this leaked OS is quite widespread now and it looks exactly the same for everyone else.

aethier
Oct 28, 2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan Amend
You're the only one... this leaked OS is quite widespread now and it looks exactly the same for everyone else.

yup, because most Photoshop artists are talented. They would not make something real looking like that, so ugly.

aethier

aethier
Oct 28, 2003, 04:46 PM
I still like the original theme for Longhorn a lot better then "Slate"

aethier

Jonathan Amend
Oct 28, 2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
You said: "WMA was a DRM standard (and not closed, contrary to what most people believe)".

Not closed equals...?

WMA is a closed standard owned by one company, and cannot be advanced by the contributions of others and can be changed at any time without anyone else's input. The reason we have the MPEG, IEEE, etc. groups is to agree upon formats, distribution etc. of standards. MS cannot declare standards on their own.

I'm sorry... what I meant was that it's free for anyone to use. This site: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/create/licensing.aspx also shows that WMA is much cheaper to license for a device than AAC (although I'm not sure if iTunes falls into the free use catagory). WMA is not a declared standard but it is the format of choice of the RIAA, MPAA, etc. Microsoft even submitted WMV to the SMPTE to be be an open standard.

Originally posted by aethier
Well 300 new features, in two years is not too bad if you ask me..



yess... iTunes, and QuickTime, are two very bulky, and slow (/sarcasm) iTunes on Windows, is like a god, compaired to Windows Media Player, that is one crappy very bulky (the PC version) piece of software if you ask me, and a lot of other people.

aethier

How would you know? You don't own a single PC and you hate Windows too much to ever use it. Windows Media Player can be slow sometimes (on a P166 anyways) but it's much faster than iTunes and neither of them compare to my favorite, which is Winamp. Other than iTMS (for Americans anyways), iTunes doesn't have a single advantage over WMP.

aethier
Oct 28, 2003, 05:10 PM
gee, i seem to remeber you showing me WMP, and there were a bunch of ugly buttons on the side, and lots of other wasted space. whereas iTunes, is simple, clean, and efficient, and if you want to know some advantages of iTunes of WMP, AND music match, then watch the presentation Steve Jobs made, with the introduction of iTunes for Windows.

aethier

Rower_CPU
Oct 28, 2003, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan Amend
I'm sorry... what I meant was that it's free for anyone to use. This site: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/create/licensing.aspx also shows that WMA is much cheaper to license for a device than AAC (although I'm not sure if iTunes falls into the free use catagory). WMA is not a declared standard but it is the format of choice of the RIAA, MPAA, etc. Microsoft even submitted WMV to the SMPTE to be be an open standard.

All AAC licenses are included in the OS purchase. Since MPEG4 is based on QuickTime, you can output to any MPEG4 format, including AAC, for free.

The page you link to is info for content distributors, not end users. Doesn't really apply to the discussion at hand. Also, links to info about the RIAA and MPAA would be helpful, but again, adoption by 3rd parties doesn't make it a standard.

Originally posted by Jonathan Amend
How would you know? You don't own a single PC and you hate Windows too much to ever use it. Windows Media Player can be slow sometimes (on a P166 anyways) but it's much faster than iTunes and neither of them compare to my favorite, which is Winamp. Other than iTMS (for Americans anyways), iTunes doesn't have a single advantage over WMP.

Easy there. Now who's making unfounded accusations? ;) [edit- OK, you seem to know each other.]

Last I checked, WMP still charged extra for the ability to encode MP3. There's a big advantage.

5300cs
Oct 28, 2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan Amend
I'm sorry... what I meant was that it's free for anyone to use. This site: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/create/licensing.aspx also shows that WMA is much cheaper to license for a device than AAC (although I'm not sure if iTunes falls into the free use catagory). WMA is not a declared standard but it is the format of choice of the RIAA, MPAA, etc. Microsoft even submitted WMV to the SMPTE to be be an open standard.



How would you know? You don't own a single PC and you hate Windows too much to ever use it. Windows Media Player can be slow sometimes (on a P166 anyways) but it's much faster than iTunes and neither of them compare to my favorite, which is Winamp. Other than iTMS (for Americans anyways), iTunes doesn't have a single advantage over WMP.

I'm sorry for such a direct confrontation, but if you think Windows Media Player is faster than iTunes, you are out of your mind. WMP is as crappy as Word; bulky, slow and WMP's UI was designed by a total beginner. They should've stuck with version 6.x when it was still useable. I've used every version of windows since 3.1 and WMP is one for the "Recycle Bin" (too bad IE can't be trashed either, but that's another 6-page discussion.)

I have a Celeron 650 w/XP and WMP humps it do death when loading whereas iTunes loads quite quickly.

Jonathan Amend
Oct 28, 2003, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by aethier
gee, i seem to remeber you showing me WMP, and there were a bunch of ugly buttons on the side, and lots of other wasted space. whereas iTunes, is simple, clean, and efficient, and if you want to know some advantages of iTunes of WMP, AND music match, then watch the presentation Steve Jobs made, with the introduction of iTunes for Windows.

aethier

Yes, I showed it to you, but you've never used it yourself, so you can't know how fast or slow it is. The buttons on the left do pretty much the same thing as iTunes (and I just noticed "Premium Services", which lets you sign up to stuff like Napster 2, CinemaNow, and MusicNow, so iTMS isn't an advantage either). WMP can also, like iTunes, go into compact mode, as well as a taskbar mode and skin mode (yes, skinning, as in something iTunes can't do). I'd watch the presentation but it's a QuickTime mov so I'll have to pass.

aethier
Oct 28, 2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by 5300cs
I'm sorry for such a direct confrontation, but if you think Windows Media Player is faster than iTunes, you are out of your mind. WMP is as crappy as Word;

UHOH, i am not taking sides, but how could you insult any Office suite program, they are all amazing and beat the crap out of any Apple competition. and i am as big of a mac fan as the other guy, but i have both PowerPoint, and Keynote, and well. Powerpoint is installed and gets used. Keynote is collecting dust.

aethier

aethier
Oct 28, 2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan Amend
I'd watch the presentation but it's a QuickTime mov so I'll have to pass.

I have observed a patern, that whenever somebody recomends something as prove to contradict your flawed argument (like the lack of iTUnes advanteges) you simply use the exuse that uses QuickTime not to watch it.

aethier

5300cs
Oct 28, 2003, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by aethier
UHOH, i am not taking sides, but how could you insult any Office suite program, they are all amazing and beat the crap out of any Apple competition. and i am as big of a mac fan as the other guy, but i have both PowerPoint, and Keynote, and well. Powerpoint is installed and gets used. Keynote is collecting dust.

aethier

Well, I'm not at all proud of it, but I do use Word- it doesn't mean that I like it though (I don't want to use X11 just to use an Office suite.) It's just about the only app on my machine that'll quit unexpectedly (besides Safari :rolleyes: but w/Panther it's been OK)
I totally agree, AppleWorks it pretty crappy (if that's what you're talking about.) Sorry Apple, but get to work on improving AW or give it away for free. I like Keynote, but since I never do presentations, it's gathering dust as well.

Jonathan Amend
Oct 28, 2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by aethier
I have observed a patern, that whenever somebody recomends something as prove to contradict your flawed argument (like the lack of iTUnes advanteges) you simply use the exuse that uses QuickTime not to watch it.

aethier

OK... find another statement of mine that fits this pattern. I don't know why people are saying iTunes for Windows is faster then Windows Media Player for Windows. Maybe iTunes is faster on a Mac than WMP for the Mac, but that doesn't mean it's the same way in Windows. Anyways, I'm in the rather slow process of installing iTunes (and QuickTime, which is lovingly bundled with it) now. And 5300cs, Windows Media Player 6.4 is still part of Windows XP, and it can do everything WMP 9 can, just without the fancy UI. Internet Explorer can also be "uninstalled" ever since Windows XP SP1, it just can't be completely removed since lots of the Windows GUI uses HTML.

aethier
Oct 28, 2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by 5300cs
Well, I'm not at all proud of it, but I do use Word- it doesn't mean that I like it though (I don't want to use X11 just to use an Office suite.) It's just about the only app on my machine that'll quit unexpectedly (besides Safari :rolleyes: but w/Panther it's been OK)
I totally agree, AppleWorks it pretty crappy (if that's what you're talking about.) Sorry Apple, but get to work on improving AW or give it away for free. I like Keynote, but since I never do presentations, it's gathering dust as well.

Oh ok, anyways if you do not like Office, you do not need X11, there is a version of OpenOffice for the Mac.

aethier

Powerbook G5
Oct 28, 2003, 07:17 PM
Word and Office in general run really quickly for me. The only problem is that there are quite a few graphical glitches whenever you move text around or cut text and get artifacts remaining from the original text in Word. If anyone doesn't want Keynote, they surely could give it to me, though. :)

iJon
Oct 28, 2003, 07:21 PM
well i have longhorn installed now, so fire away with any questions. so far it seems the same as xp, just more brown.

iJon

5300cs
Oct 28, 2003, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by aethier
Oh ok, anyways if you do not like Office, you do not need X11, there is a version of OpenOffice for the Mac.

aethier

Thanks for the pointer, but I'm not seeing it when I go to openoffice.org. All I see is "Mac OS X (X11)" :confused:

Is ThinkFree Office any good? Anyone here used it?

DHagan4755
Oct 28, 2003, 08:11 PM
If that new interface doesn't make people switch, I don't know what will. ****, that's ugly.

iJon
Oct 28, 2003, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by DHagan4755
If that new interface doesn't make people switch, I don't know what will. ****, that's ugly.
i like it, its very clean and they did great with the anti aliasing. just little things here and there look better. now i know it wont be enough for people to upgrade, but still looks nice.

iJon

Supa_Fly
Oct 28, 2003, 11:09 PM
What is the minimum requirements to run Longhorn??

iJon How much HD space, memory, and CPU must you need to run it.

iJon
Oct 28, 2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Prom1
What is the minimum requirements to run Longhorn??

iJon How much HD space, memory, and CPU must you need to run it.
i dont know, but it is pretty sluggish on my p4 2ghz, 512 ram, geforce 4 ti4400. i installed it on a slave 30gb hard drive and it says now 11% taken up. so i guess around 3 gb. and i was disappointed to find out itunes doesnt work so i will be switching back to xp soon on my main drive. text is much nicer and smoother on longhorn, made me feel on i was on OS X :eek:

iJon

Supa_Fly
Oct 28, 2003, 11:24 PM
Well thats exactly the same kind of system I'm using right now; P4 2Ghz with 40G HD with 400Mhz system bus and 512MB 266DDR SDRAM.

Think I'll move onto WinXP Pro.....until next year when I'll be able to move onto Panther and a PowerMac G5.

iJon
Oct 28, 2003, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by Prom1
Well thats exactly the same kind of system I'm using right now; P4 2Ghz with 40G HD with 400Mhz system bus and 512MB 266DDR SDRAM.

Think I'll move onto WinXP Pro.....until next year when I'll be able to move onto Panther and a PowerMac G5.
yeah definently, xp is a great system and i enjoy it very much. i just wanted to see what longhorn was like. it is nice and it didnt surprise me that it is sluggish, it i still 3 years away from primetime. really all it felt like was xp witha new color and rearanged stuff here and there. but once you get a g5 and panther no windows system will ever compare. windows xp is great for windows and pc's. but if you compare it to panther...well there really is no comparison.

iJon

aethier
Oct 29, 2003, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by 5300cs
Thanks for the pointer, but I'm not seeing it when I go to openoffice.org. All I see is "Mac OS X (X11)" :confused:

Is ThinkFree Office any good? Anyone here used it?

Here (http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/9602) you go. This does not seem to be X11.

aethier

stcanard
Oct 29, 2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by 5300cs
Thanks for the pointer, but I'm not seeing it when I go to openoffice.org. All I see is "Mac OS X (X11)" :confused:

Is ThinkFree Office any good? Anyone here used it?

I did some poking around on the site, and they don't plan an aqua openoffice.org until the new interfaces are hammered out for 2.0 (it makes sense, why spend a lot of effort porting a version that's already hitting eol). That's scheduled for about the longhorn release, but I would assume the alpha / beta versions will be fairly usable.

I haven't used the X11 version on OSX much, but playing around it seemed stable. In general the 1.x series of OOo will do everything 90% of the populace needs. If you use styles and automatic formatting heavily, you might get a bit frustrated.