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My worst nightmare: 10.5.2

M

maximus06

macrumors regular
Original poster
I had been thinking about the whole "apple is getting as bad as MS" thing, and it seems this is becoming more and more a reality. The 10.5.2 update was a complete disaster for my 3 month old white macbook. Before the update, I had minor issues (see list), none of which were fixed by the update. The biggest thing is that my wireless has been completely killed, some days it works mostly, other days (like today) it is totally unusable.

By the way, for those of you wondering, I'm writing this from the very same macbook but IN WINDOWS XP via bootcamp. 0 wireless problems. Funny thing too, I have an apple 'airport' router. Clearly the 10.5.2 update was a disaster for many people.

I find this really sad because unlike microsoft who have to make sure that their software runs on every possible computer configuration, apple only has to make sure that it works on a few systems which they themselves configured. Epic fail, and in my anger I've lost a great deal of respect for apple. You've worked on this piece of crap for months, have fixed nothing and made everything 10x worse.

List of problems:
-connection drops, today it happens every 5 seconds, been doing this for hours even after 2 restarts (totally unusable)
-password box gone after wake-up (needs a 2nd wakeup to appear)
-VLC crashes/freezes randomly
-cpu whine not 'controllable anymore' (could be eliminated 100% by only running on one cpu core)
-desktop still freezes after monitor switches (carried over from 10.5.x)
-dvd player still has same 'graphic problems' (carried over from 10.5.x)
-when ejecting disc, it doesnt eject and isnt visible in the OS anymore (carried over from 10.5.x)

I am beyond angry. I'm going to try and find a 10.5.1 disc and reinstall. I thought I would never have to do this again after leaving windows, but clearly I was mistaken. Very, very disappointed.

I could have lived with the "not fixing anything" part of the update, but the fact that it destroyed my OS is insane. Not even MS managed to do that with their updates. Yes there will be people saying "but it fixed x and y for me" or "it works flawlessly" - well let me tell you something, an update is supposed to fix existing problems, it is NOT SUPPOSED to introduce new ones as serious as this. Now everyone who doesn't have an install disc and/or backups can spend their time trying to get their working OS back. Thanks for nothing apple.
 
hopefully reinstallation will solve your problem.

I would like to know how many people have problem with leopard (percentage wise) before making judgement.

But at least people need to be sober about apple's developing quality.
 
I have great sympathy for you. My iMac and girlfriend's C2D Macbook are pretty much the same - i.e. the airport issue has NOT gone away - and this is Apple's own airport extreme doing the damage here! When I plug in the ethernet cable it's connected, guaranteed. My GF runs a business so when the internet connection drops it is seriously frustrating for her and has financial implications too.
Although I love Macs you will certainly not get an apology or often even an acknowledgement that problems exist.
Your solution would be to take it to see a 'genius'. Good luck.
 
When I read posts like this a couple of things pop into my mind:
1. Did you call Apple with any of these problems?
2. Much of your list sounds like aberrations that aren't really normal for most users. I suspect either corrupted hard drive or some preferences problem. Have you tried creating another login and seeing if these problems persist?
 
My experience has been similar to yours in the sense that Leopard has proven the first Mac nightmare I've had. I used Windows computers before switching to Macs - at least at home - five years ago. We have six now. Installing the original Leopard was a disaster for two of them, both relatively new at the time (less than six months old). Leopard 10.5.1 was painless, but 10.5.2 has failed on three of my six machines, with different problems on each one. The AppleCare I paid a premium for on each machine has been all but worthless: it might be worth it for the extended hardware warranty but Apple's online tech support is the worst I've encountered (and that's been since day one when I bought my original Mac, a TiBook).

I don't remember having any worse experiences with Windows, just many similar ones. At this point, for the premium price required by the Apple platform, I'm starting to feel I might as well head back to Vista and save a few bucks.
 
Well, in all fairness I have been very very happy with my mac, with leopard in general. It is a beautiful OS, and it surely blows windows out of the water, even though there are (as mentioned) a few annoying bugs, that aren't a deal breaker though.

But these wireless problems (which 10.5.2 introduced for me) are so bad, so absurd. Networking is one of the most important functions of an OS, and it was working so well before. This should be their only concern right now - forget the iPhone, iPod and MBA, FOCUS ON THE FREAKING WIRELESS problems that so many users (have been, or are just now) experiencing. Really, really frustrating to know that they probably won't even try to fix it until the 10.5.3 release, which could be 3 months away.
 
dkeninitz said:
At this point, for the premium price required by the Apple platform, I'm starting to feel I might as well head back to Vista and save a few bucks.
Click to expand...

let us know how this works out for you and I'm not kidding. I'd like to read some posts of how someone switched back to Windows XP/Vista and how it's better. I'm no computer genius but I've installed, built, troubleshot Win 95/98/2000/2000 Server/XP and Vista and I've used Mac OS for 20 years. I'm not sure if I've just been very lucky but Mac OS especially X has been so easy to deal with and the only hardware problem I can think of is the annoying fan noise on the Rev A intel MBP (non-Apple hardware including Alienware/Dell/Gateway have resulted in multiple hard drive failures, permanent failure of ports, and multiple optical drive failures). The only wireless drops I've had on our Macs have been with developer builds. And when I've had any problems with OSX machines I couldn't solve myself, I've asked someone who knows more and the answers have been so simple it made me embarrassed I didn't think of it myself (I can think of 2 times this has happened). So I'd love to hear how a Vista experience is better. I have Vista on 2 machines currently and only leave it there out of laziness because if I had a choice I'd install OS X on them, but being that I'm sure I'd have hardware incompatibilities and it's not legal, I'd rather use XP for limited needs.
 
cohibadad said:
When I read posts like this a couple of things pop into my mind:
1. Did you call Apple with any of these problems?
2. Much of your list sounds like aberrations that aren't really normal for most users. I suspect either corrupted hard drive or some preferences problem. Have you tried creating another login and seeing if these problems persist?
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing. I didn't have any problems with the update.
 
forafireescape said:
I was thinking the same thing. I didn't have any problems with the update.
Click to expand...

Be reasonable, please. Noone should have any issues as serious as this with an update, yet MANY people do.

What do you think applecare is going to do if I call them? Press a button and the issue will magically resolve itself? This is SOFTWARE related, applecare won't be able to do a thing.
 
cohibadad said:
let us know how this works out for you and I'm not kidding. I'd like to read some posts of how someone switched back to Windows XP/Vista and how it's better. I'm no computer genius but I've installed, built, troubleshot Win 95/98/2000/2000 Server/XP and Vista and I've used Mac OS for 20 years. I'm not sure if I've just been very lucky but Mac OS especially X has been so easy to deal with and the only hardware problem I can think of is the annoying fan noise on the Rev A intel MBP (non-Apple hardware including Alienware/Dell/Gateway have resulted in multiple hard drive failures, permanent failure of ports, and multiple optical drive failures). The only wireless drops I've had on our Macs have been with developer builds. And when I've had any problems with OSX machines I couldn't solve myself, I've asked someone who knows more and the answers have been so simple it made me embarrassed I didn't think of it myself (I can think of 2 times this has happened). So I'd love to hear how a Vista experience is better. I have Vista on 2 machines currently and only leave it there out of laziness because if I had a choice I'd install OS X on them, but being that I'm sure I'd have hardware incompatibilities and it's not legal, I'd rather use XP for limited needs.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying Vista is better, I'm simply saying that my experiences with Leopard 10.5 and 10.5.2 have been as bad as anything I ever encountered in using DOS/Windows for nearly 20 years before switching to Mac five years ago, about the time OS X first came out. I've loved my experience with Macs up until now, but it has come at a premium price. If I'm going to begin going through the same aggravation with Macs that I grew accustomed to with Windows machines, I may as well do it on a cheaper platform, and one where I don't have to wait an extra six months to a year for upgrades to the software applications I use most (Office and Photoshop, for example).

It's just a theory, but I think Steve Jobs is lot more concerned these days about the iPhone and the iPod than he is OS X. Witness the six-month delay in the release of (a buggy) Leopard so that the developers could concentrate on the iPhone.
 
maximus06 said:
Be reasonable, please. Noone should have any issues as serious as this with an update, yet MANY people do.

What do you think applecare is going to do if I call them? Press a button and the issue will magically resolve itself? This is SOFTWARE related, applecare won't be able to do a thing.
Click to expand...

I would think software related problems are exactly what applecare is able to troubleshoot unless you are saying that this is due to buggy software for which only a new build will solve. I'd disagree with that. So maybe it would help if you would describe the steps you have taken to troubleshoot these problems.
 
maximus06 said:
Be reasonable, please. Noone should have any issues as serious as this with an update, yet MANY people do.

What do you think applecare is going to do if I call them? Press a button and the issue will magically resolve itself? This is SOFTWARE related, applecare won't be able to do a thing.
Click to expand...

Since it's SOFTWARE related it could also be USER related and the Apple SUPPORT (not hardware applecare) people might walk you through basic steps you might not be aware of like the aforementioned creation of a troubleshooting user or telling you to delete the receipt for the update and try to download and install it again; you know SOFTWARE troubleshooting steps.

Not EVERYONE is having problems; either let Apple try and help you fix it, put Tiger back on, or sell it and get a windows box. One thing you are probably right about though, the issue will probably not just magically resolve itself...
Good Luck.
 
maximus06 said:
Be reasonable, please. Noone should have any issues as serious as this with an update, yet MANY people do.

What do you think applecare is going to do if I call them? Press a button and the issue will magically resolve itself? This is SOFTWARE related, applecare won't be able to do a thing.
Click to expand...

Based on my experiences with them, here's what AppleCare will tell you to do:

- Repair your disk permissions; if that doesn't work, then:
- Reset your PRAM; if that doesn't work, then:
- Boot into safe mode; if that doesn't work, then:
- Finally, do an archive & install (or an erase and install).

If you've done all that already, you're on your own, like many of us.
 
the wireless airport now is a total mess!!!!!!
when i close the macbook lid and opens it up later, in 10.5.1 it connects back to my AP instantaneously.
and now it takes at least a minute to connect back to the same router!!! 😡

i also have that desktop freezing problem. i use a remote timer to put the computer to sleep after a download finishes. when i wake the computer up the desktop FREEZES. i have to force quit and restart finder. this is so buggy! you don't even get this in windows (but i hate that OS enough that's why im on mac).
 
I love the mac platform, would never go back to Windows. But I do sympathize with people who have wireless problems due to updates. My wireless would go out requiring a hard reset after 10.4.7 on a core duo iMac revision A. I posted it to death on this forum, and a "cure" was never discovered, even by the savvy mac code warriors who knew about the problem elsewhere on the internet.

Leopard fixed my wireless woes, but now 10.5.2 has introduced the minor inconvenience of the wireless intermittently going out. All of my wireless problems occurred while connected to apple routers.

It seems that wireless connectivity has been a downward trend on the macintel platform. I can put up with the birth pangs of switching chips, but I really wish Apple would take more responsibility to recognize the problem considering all the people who post about it on their own support forums.

Far better than Windows, I agree, but like a poster said above, stable network connectivity is vital. No company should just pretend that the problem doesn't exist.
 
dkeninitz said:
My experience has been similar to yours in the sense that Leopard has proven the first Mac nightmare I've had. I used Windows computers before switching to Macs - at least at home - five years ago. We have six now. Installing the original Leopard was a disaster for two of them, both relatively new at the time (less than six months old). Leopard 10.5.1 was painless, but 10.5.2 has failed on three of my six machines, with different problems on each one. The AppleCare I paid a premium for on each machine has been all but worthless: it might be worth it for the extended hardware warranty but Apple's online tech support is the worst I've encountered (and that's been since day one when I bought my original Mac, a TiBook).

I don't remember having any worse experiences with Windows, just many similar ones. At this point, for the premium price required by the Apple platform, I'm starting to feel I might as well head back to Vista and save a few bucks.
Click to expand...

The original poster, and yourself, along with anyone else having problems with Leopard, need to look at your own software set-up for the answers, not Apple. get rid of ALL third party Apps/addons and Haxies, and THEN do a clean erase and install.

The vast majority of users are having great success with Leopard, and, like myself, are very happy. Going back to Vista won't save you any money, but it will at least reduce the number of, "It's all Apples Fault " posts on this and other Apple forums.

And as far as Apples online support is concerned, it's miles ahead of the online support provided by Microsoft, and in my opinion, is first class.

I have been on Apple computers since 2001. number of visits to a tech for repairs, one.
Cost of repair, none.

In closing. If you have the Applecare protection plan, then pick up that phone and use it. From experience, if you present your problem/issue clearly and maintain your cool, 80-90% of software issues can be solved by them. If you are not happy with the fellow taking your call, then ask to be put through to senior support.
 
Reading this makes me wonder why some people have problems and some dont.Before .2 i had all sorts of small issues,the only big issue i had was wifi dropouts but since .2 my wifi has'nt dropped
once
 
silverdreamer said:
The original poster, and yourself, along with anyone else having problems with Leopard, need to look at your own software set-up for the answers, not Apple. get rid of ALL third party Apps/addons and Haxies, and THEN do a clean erase and install.
Click to expand...

Your arrogance is exceeded only by your ignorance. Of course, ALL Leopard problems are the fault of the users. There couldn't possibly be any problems with software from a company as pure as Apple; only Microsoft produces imperfect software.

FYI, I have no haxies on my machines. I do have mainstream applications like Office and Photoshop. That is - after all - why I own the machines in the first place. If by "third-party" software you mean any applications not made by Apple, then you must be a shill for them. Apple's software applications, with a few exceptions like Logic Studio, are hardly robust. I doubt Apple wants to make the claim that its machines only run successfully when utilizing Apple-authored software applications. That would be the death knell for the platform.

silverdreamer said:
The vast majority of users are having great success with Leopard, and, like myself, are very happy.
Click to expand...

And you know this exactly how?

silverdreamer said:
Going back to Vista won't save you any money
Click to expand...

Yes, it will. The hardware is significantly cheaper, as is the extended care offered by companies such as Dell. If the aggravation factor is going to be the same, there's no reason to spend the extra money. Not having to deal with the aggravation factor is why I switched in the first place.

silverdreamer said:
...but it will at least reduce the number of, "It's all Apples Fault " posts on this and other Apple forums.
Click to expand...

True, dissatisfied Apple "switchers" deciding to switch back to Windows platforms will certainly reduce the number of posters reporting problems with Leopard, though hardly for reasons Apple will find desirable. Fewer users does indeed equal fewer complaints. If that's the math Apple wants, it may soon get it. It seems to care more about the iPhone anyway, so maybe their intention is to gradually jettison the computer business.

silverdreamer said:
As far as Apples online support is concerned, it's miles ahead of the online support provided by Microsoft, and in my opinion, is first class.
Click to expand...

The first accurate statement you've made: in YOUR opinion. Mine is vastly different. What makes yours special?

silverdreamer said:
have been on Apple computers since 2001. number of visits to a tech for repairs, one.
Cost of repair, none.
Click to expand...

Good for you. I've only been using them since 2003. Cost of repairs since then for machines outside the AppleCare warranty, about $1,500.

silverdreamer said:
In closing. If you have the Applecare protection plan, then pick up that phone and use it. From experience, if you present your problem/issue clearly and maintain your cool, 80-90% of software issues can be solved by them. If you are not happy with the fellow taking your call, then ask to be put through to senior support.
Click to expand...

I have picked up the phone, repeatedly, to no avail. I've been at all levels of support. They haven't managed to help me successfully get 10.5.2 working on even one of my three machines that failed the update, much less all three (the other three managed it uneventfully). They acknowledge that others are reporting the same experience with, for example, the missing desktop and Finder bar, but say they don't have a solution. Thanks for your trite and officious suggestions nonetheless.
 
I have exactly the same problem reported by isamurai (when i close the lid and reopen my 2.2 blackbook my internet connection is not available for 15 to 30 seconds) With .1 my wireless did not have any problem at all and connectio was immediately available. This is definitely a software problem and Apple should fix it
 
I agree that Leopard (10.5.0, 10.5.1. and 10.5.2) is the worst Mac OS update ever. I don't remember one single update in the last 23 years that caused so much trouble. I had more unexpected application shut downs in the last months than I had "bombs" in the early days of Mac OS. And all that other stuff I and others wrote a lot on different threads on this site 😡
 
Quality Control FTL.....

It's just a cold hard fact people are going to have to accept that Leopard will need to be at at least 10.5.4 before it is out of 'beta' status.

Jobs poured way too many resources into the damn iPhone while simultaneously improperly (not) forecasting the company's growth and hiring more people. And one of the major casualties of Jobs' missteps is Leopard.

Most people have problems with wireless on Leopard they never had on Tiger. Has anyone have yet to successfully repair permissions on Leopard without error messages? Didn't think so. Anyone's permisisons repair take the same amount of time as on Tiger? What's that you say? Much longer? Thought so.

While we're on the topic of software, Logic 8 is completely jacked up. No matter what type of system you have, you are going to get a system overload message. Just Google Logic 8 overload. iMovie 08?? Enough said on that one..... Of course there are many "missing" posts on the Logic 8 topic over at the Apple forums because any time there is a widespread problem, that topic is summarily deleted. Same thing happened with the 20" iMac screen issues. Topic deleted. These aren't the droids you're looking for.

On to hardware, the iMacs had freezing video cards because the iMac wasn't tested properly. The iMac has/had screen issues. Some users report condensation beneath the glass. CONDENSATION!! Are you kidding me? Many people with the new 2008 Mac Pros can't get their machines to wake up properly. The Mac Pros decide to reboot after sleep, no matter how long/short the sleep was. Owners of the '2600xt' card on the Mac Pro have come to find out that it's actually a severely underclocked card. I'm pretty sure Apple isn't supposed to market it as a 2600xt if it does not, in fact, run at XT speeds. Hop over to the Macbook Air forum and you'll find people reporting that their brand new Air can't play video without locking up and overheating.

The list goes on and on and on........ Fanboys flame away, but at the end of the day you will be wrong. Quality Control at Apple is non-existent these days. And with 14 billion in the bank there really is NO excuse for this lapse in quality, across the entire company. Sure, many people with iPhones report no problems. But that's because Jobs naively pooled all of his resources into that blasted thing and didn't properly staff his company to meet the growing demand for Apple products. And by staffing I don't mean Apple Store employees.

The writing was on the wall when they changed their name from Apple Computer to Apple Inc. 😡
 
I got similar wireless problems on my new iMac, the internet sharing dosent work half the time, you have to turn it off and on again! Which would be sort of OK for the moment I suppose, except im not a admin and you need to be one to turn the internet sharing off and on again!
 
My macs work great. This guy is just angry. Take you mac in to a store. Their service is top notch. Oh a be prepared for the " I'm not taking it's too far bla bla"
 
While i sympathize with people who are having problems Id just like to say I have a mac book and a macbook pro, and my dad has an imac all intel, all within since nov 2006 and mac osx has been great! The reason I switched to mac was because i was tired of fiddling with xp to keep it running good! I have enough to do with out maintenance to my comp. During my brief exposure to mac i have had only a fraction of the problems that plagued my windows machine! The most annoying one i have had is on occasion i do have to shut off airport wireless and turn it back on, it however is not very frequent and i didnt even think much of it til now.

It is funny how fast people become accustomed to an operating system and it suddenly becomes the base line and when any little thing happens people start to freak out and hate apple etc etc ... Take a couple days and go back to your windows box, remind yourself of where you came from ...

Granted osx is not perfect, it is the closest thing available ... 🙂 I will not be switching in any foreseeable future ....

I have a buddy, he smokes a lot of well something, he is the only one i personally know of that has problems of any severity with osx, but again compared to windows, it is still a fraction ... some people shouldnt be allowed near computers lol, or at least not be allowed to have admin privileges HAHA 🙂
 
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