Xserve RAID Discontinued?

[dillacom]

the Xserve RAID is gone.

[hob]

I just noticed this too! Amazing.

http://www.apple.com/server/storage/ - Promise RAID

http://www.apple.com/uk/xserve/raid/ -XServe RAID

Why are they getting rid of the nice looking one?! :p

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Along with the announcements today of the iPod Shuffle capacity bumps (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/02/19/apple-drops-ipod-shuffle-to-49-adds-2gb-model/) and XSan 2 (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/02/19/apple-introduces-xsan-2/), some users are realizing that Apple's Xserve RAID solution has completely disappeared from Apple's online store.

In addition, the Xserve RAID product page (http://www.apple.com/xserve/raid/) now redirects to http://www.apple.com/server/storage/, which promotes a 3U external RAID enclosure by Promise. Apple has added the Promise RAID solution to its store and now presents it as the external RAID choice when configuring an Xserve.

External Storage
For massive storage needs, connect a Promise VTrak E-Class Fiber Channel RAID subsystem to your Xserve. The VTrak E-Class provides high performance and high availability through 4Gb Fiber Channel and dual active/active controllers. An Apple Fibre Channel card for connectivity is required.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/02/19/xserve-raid-discontinued/)

[DocStone]

Wow...what's next? The mini?

Isn't there supposed to be a media event soon? Anyone know the date of that?

[Eidorian]

It's the same thing on Higher Education. Kinda sad to see it go.

[markfc]

Yep that was a great looking piece of hardware....RIP

[cohibadad]

I had a hard time finding it on their site a month ago like they were hiding it. I must have bought about the last one.
Yep that was a great looking piece of hardware....RIP
It is beautiful with all it's lights on but NOISY.

[kaisdaddy]

...but so did the cube.

RAID storage is one of those markets where you have to be quick on your feet. Apple is not generally known for adjusting to the market in a hurry.

There are just too many other options out there that are either faster, cheaper or both. Granted, none of them probably look as good as Xserve (although the Pro DQ from Dulce systems is nice looking), but when you're spending that much money on storage, aesthetics are probably not at the top of your list of must-have features.

Reliable, cheap and fast are very sexy in this market, and not necessarily in that order. ;)

[SwiftLives]

Wow...what's next? The mini?

Isn't there supposed to be a media event soon? Anyone know the date of that?

There's no media event officially (or - to my knowledge - unofficially) scheduled in the near future.

[Stella]

There's no media event officially (or - to my knowledge - unofficially) scheduled in the near future.

There's rumoured to be one next week... iPhone SDK announcement.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/02/07/rumor_possible_apple_event_brewing_for_late_february.html

[cohibadad]

Apple promotes the mini as the headless mac solution for video use in podcast production for their leopard server. As there is no other mac to fill this role I doubt the mini will go unless it is replaced with something equivalent.

[Diode]

Makes sense ... with so many great SAN solutions out there already why choose apple?

Apple's RAID solution was outdated compared to competition.

[aaarrrgggh]

I've actually seen a lot more XServe RAID's in data centers than the XServe itself. So much for my hoping that Apple would try to push into the corporate world.

Likely not a bad thing, but I would have expected a product that would be styled more like an XServe.

[tivoli2]

They don't want to sell any Promises (heh) right away, apparently... the "Buy Now" button is broken.

[Toe]

I find it hard to believe that it is entirely gone. Perhaps it is just on a break?

The Xserve RAID was very popular even with non-Mac installations as a class-leader in RAID hardware. I can't see why they would want to kill that market.

If they kill the RAID, they might as well go ahead and kill off other high-end enterprise things like... Xsan. Which obviously they aren't doing.

The Xserve's drive modules were a full two generations behind the Xserve. Maybe they're just updating it.

[BenRoethig]

With the rumors floating around that apple has put the Pro Apps and now this, I'm starting to wonder about Apple's commitment to professional and business markets. They can be boring and not particularly innovative at times and those are the kinds of things that Jobs can lose interest in.

[tivoli2]

I don't get it, you can still purchase it on Apple's website? Or are we talking about the actual RAID bay system?

XServe (http://store.apple.com/AppleStore/WebObjects/BizCustom?qprm=78313&node=home/shop_mac/family/xserve)

The RAID is what's gone. It must have been hindering the creation of widgets for the iPhone.:rolleyes:

[Toe]

I find it hard to believe that it is entirely gone. Perhaps it is just on a break?
Then again, after looking at the Promise RAID further (I didn't realize it was on the Apple descriptive site, not the Store), I am not so sure. Huh.

[funkyp56]

They don't want to sell any Promises (heh) right away, apparently... the "Buy Now" button is broken.

Very true, I tried it!

[darthraige]

The RAID is what's gone. It must have been hindering the creation of widgets for the iPhone.:rolleyes:

Yea, that's what I figured. lol So I deleted what I said after realizing I didn't dig deeper on this. lol

[guzhogi]

When the xServe was upgraded to have SAS, I remember wondering why the RAID wasn't. Apparently, Steve Jobs doesn't like the Enterprise market.

[parapup]

... at least from Apple perspective. I am not sure that the XServe RAID sales were significant and there is no strategic reason for Apple to keep that product alive.

Wonder they will do the same thing for XServe itself? Sure it is a nicely designed product with reasonable price but not many people want to run OS X Server - compatibility, performance, training reasons etc.

I think Apple should start supporting 3rd party operating systems on the Xserve (much like how Sun does - sure they would like you to buy Solaris but don't want to lose a sale if you are a Linux or Windows shop) and see the sales picking up - there is nothing lacking in that product apart from OS Vendor Support.

[frijole]

I've actually seen a lot more XServe RAID's in data centers than the XServe itself. So much for my hoping that Apple would try to push into the corporate world.

Likely not a bad thing, but I would have expected a product that would be styled more like an XServe.

Yup. For its lack of adaptability (still ATA drives, maxed out at 750 per, when SATA goes to 1TB and beyond, and no SAS; 2GB/s Fibre Channel (when you could get a 4GB card), etc), it was still pretty inexpensive per-GB and worked well with ADIC's Stornext (what XSan is based on) on other platforms.

At NC State, a few years ago, they home-built a Linux cluster practically for the change they found in the lounge sofas in the CS buildings, and they used XServe RAIDs for storage.

[docpsycho]

Have you looked at the prospective of 3rd party manufactures are coming on board in supporting X server platforms? Sure if You get your nerd on and tweak a box sure, but ready to go options? Far and few.

And it is officially apple sanctioned...... but thats another thread.:p

[subgenius]

When the xServe was upgraded to have SAS, I remember wondering why the RAID wasn't. Apparently, Steve Jobs doesn't like the Enterprise market.

I disagree, I have a Xsan deployment at work that I admin. And let me tell ya, no matter how much storage you give your end users, they will fill it. So switching to a Storage System that allows for direct expansion of the Raid Sub System instead of the switch just ROCKS!

Steve Jobs must love the enterprise!. When I had the max number of XServe Raids on my Q-logic switch, i got to go spend another 5K on a second switch and then 600 on another set of interconnect cables. Now you can just add to the Sub System and from the looks of it (i have not read the detailed tech specs yet) it maybe being done via ESAS as expansion, thus the 12Gb back plane to the expansion subsystem.

So to sum this up, the 18K I spent a year ago to a a Xserve Raid and switches, would now be just a Expansion Chassis with drives. That 5K for the switch would become more storage, not more cables and points of failure.

The only thing I wish that apple would do, is alter the pricing scheme for the Xsan Software Package, for ever Node an extra 1000$. When your a MTV or Universal that maybe fine, but when your a start up, that can hurt to add 12 editors to your San.

:cool:
-SubGenius

[Will_reed]

I hope they bring them back in a newer better form or something cause I always wanted an Xserve RAID just never had the cash to get one.
Those Promise things look too generic.

[Unspeaked]

Though I agree it's a bad thing the XRAID is gone, I don't understand the arguments that it was so great looking and the Promise solution isn't.

These are server components we're talking about. 9 times out of 10 - maybe more - they're in a rack somewhere in some closet or server room and never seen by human eyes.

This isn't an iMac or MacBook that gets looked at constantly. I don't really care what my RAID looks like, as long as it works.

That being said, the XRAID works pretty well :)

[GekkePrutser]

I had a hard time finding it on their site a month ago like they were hiding it. I must have bought about the last one.

It is beautiful with all it's lights on but NOISY.

All big Raid arrays are noisy. Packing so many fast and hot drives together with only tiny gaps between them for cooling needs some serious cooling fans.. The Dell Powervaults we have at work are the exact same.

Too bad Apple's dropping them though, they really look well with the xServe.

[4God]

Wonder if that has anything to do with the delay of Final Cut Server?

[Virgil-TB2]

Yup. For its lack of adaptability (still ATA drives, maxed out at 750 per, when SATA goes to 1TB and beyond, and no SAS; 2GB/s Fibre Channel (when you could get a 4GB card), etc), it was still pretty inexpensive per-GB and worked well with ADIC's Stornext (what XSan is based on) on other platforms.

At NC State, a few years ago, they home-built a Linux cluster practically for the change they found in the lounge sofas in the CS buildings, and they used XServe RAIDs for storage.The thing that bugs me the most about this story (if it's true), is the feeling it gives you that *all* Apple of products are just a coin toss away from being discontinued. It really rocks one's faith in the company in general, when you hear of products that weren't really in trouble, disappearing without warning.

The optics on this is that Apple is prepared to chuck pretty much any product that doesn't give them a market leader position with a huge margin to boot. If they can discontinue the X-Serve Raid, then anything they make could be gone tomorrow; not because it's not making money, but because it's not making enough money or isn't the very best in it's class.

That is exceedingly unsettling.

[Toe]

Wonder they will do the same thing for XServe itself? Sure it is a nicely designed product with reasonable price but not many people want to run OS X Server - compatibility, performance, training reasons etc.
I don't think that's the case. OSXS has several solid markets.

First, it and the Xserve are a great way for a small business to grow and keep their Macs that they started out on (and to hire more non-technical staff before they have to start ramping up an I.T. department). Just like Apple did in the education market, they are getting businesses when they are young. That's a solid long-term strategy.

For bigger businesses, OSXS is a nice flavor of unix that runs on really solid hardware from a leading manufacturer. Most enterprises aren't ready to fill all their racks with Xserves, but they can certainly see benefits to running some Xserves or some clusters of them.

OSXS is also a fantastic workgroup server for graphics and multimedia departments. I imagine that's where the majority of OSXS implementations are.

[tivoli2]

The thing that bugs me the most about this story (if it's true), is the feeling it gives you that *all* Apple of products are just a coin toss away from being discontinued. It really rocks one's faith in the company in general, when you hear of products that weren't really in trouble, disappearing without warning.

The optics on this is that Apple is prepared to chuck pretty much any product that doesn't give them a market leader position with a huge margin to boot. If they can discontinue the X-Serve Raid, then anything they make could be gone tomorrow; not because it's not making money, but because it's not making enough money or isn't the very best in it's class.

That is exceedingly unsettling.

Does anyone think this has any real implications or foreshadowing for professional level Apple technology, or am I just being a nervous ninny? Don't want to turn this into an "i"gadgets rant, I'm just saying I've been nervous since the whole iPhone thing and how it seemingly pushed all else to the sidelines. Hopefully I'm mistaken and my perceptions are unwarranted. :confused:

[guzhogi]

I disagree, I have a Xsan deployment at work that I admin. And let me tell ya, no matter how much storage you give your end users, they will fill it. So switching to a Storage System that allows for direct expansion of the Raid Sub System instead of the switch just ROCKS!

Steve Jobs must love the enterprise!. When I had the max number of XServe Raids on my Q-logic switch, i got to go spend another 5K on a second switch and then 600 on another set of interconnect cables. Now you can just add to the Sub System and from the looks of it (i have not read the detailed tech specs yet) it maybe being done via ESAS as expansion, thus the 12Gb back plane to the expansion subsystem.

So to sum this up, the 18K I spent a year ago to a a Xserve Raid and switches, would now be just a Expansion Chassis with drives. That 5K for the switch would become more storage, not more cables and points of failure.

The only thing I wish that apple would do, is alter the pricing scheme for the Xsan Software Package, for ever Node an extra 1000$. When your a MTV or Universal that maybe fine, but when your a start up, that can hurt to add 12 editors to your San.

:cool:
-SubGenius

Good point, but, if true, why didn't Apple do that with the xServe RAID?

[foidulus]

Not so much what they did(I will have to wait to get my hands on one to really comment on the efficacy of the move) but how they did it. No warnings, they just completely stopped selling the old model and announced the new model which is different enough that it could cause headaches. One of the biggest differences seems to be monitoring the thing. They each have a built in web server(which makes me cringe when I think of the potential security implications) and are probably not compatible with the old RAID admin software.

So now companies that used Apples products either have to scramble to make sure they have all the RAIDs they are going to need for a while or commit resources to testing and implementing the new ones that they previously did not think they needed. The same kind of thing happens all the time on the consumer end, but consumers put up with it because they really like Apple's products and the difference in terms of user experience and testing between today's iMac and the next gen are minimal. However, many corporate users like to plan things out years in advance and have to throughly test all new products. They cannot just throw new RAID systems into the mix willy nilly because Apple felt like today was a good day to do so.

Just more evidence that Apple is doing everything in its power to drive corporate customers AWAY from their products....

[twoodcc]

well, i guess apple knows best. kinda sad to hear the news though.

[Toe]

The thing that bugs me the most about this story (if it's true), is the feeling it gives you that *all* Apple of products are just a coin toss away from being discontinued. It really rocks one's faith in the company in general, when you hear of products that weren't really in trouble, disappearing without warning.

The optics on this is that Apple is prepared to chuck pretty much any product that doesn't give them a market leader position with a huge margin to boot. If they can discontinue the X-Serve Raid, then anything they make could be gone tomorrow; not because it's not making money, but because it's not making enough money or isn't the very best in it's class.

That is exceedingly unsettling.
And that's why enterprise I.T. hates Apple.

It seems like the only solution is for Apple to make Apple Enterprise a major division of the company, almost but not quite separate from the rest of the iApple brand. That (sub)company would have to be much more open about product timelines. It would need it's own limited line of (low-cost, low-feature, expandable) hardware so that they don't have to reveal what's coming up in the consumer line of hardware. And it would have to branch OS X Server further from Client so that they could be forthcoming about the future of Server without giving away too much about Client.

And it also seems like Apple just isn't going to make Apple Enterprise anything but a minor branch of their sales department. Because they aren't ready to make that big of a commitment to Enterprise when they get so much more money from the consumer market. And they don't want consumers buying cheapo/utilitarian business Macs.

That's a shame, since they have such a kickass server system. Everything they have (with the extremely notable exception of low-cost client computers) makes for an incredibly appealing enterprise lineup. OS X Server's unlimited-users-for-everything license makes it vastly more appealing than Windows for so many applications. Not to mention the stability, the full UNIX compliance, the great suite of bundled applications, the security, and the excellent hardware to run it all on.

[Nicky G]

The Xserve RAID was already a dead product, it was several years behind the curve technology-wise, and was an embarrassment to Apple in the pro markets. They should have done something like this years ago -- find a good, cutting-edge manufacturer of fibre channel RAIDs to "qualify" for Xsan, and move on. I am psyched, I will sell a ton of these to my clients. Finally I can feel really good about Xsan again. And Xsan 2.0 hopefully will be very nice, just the Spotlight support has been much-needed for a long time. I pray it's not too buggy.

[gcliv]

Wow this is really rough for me. I'm an IT Manager for a manufacturing company and I love the snot out of my XServe RAID unit. I have it connected to a Dell 1U server. I was just getting ready to fill up the rest of the slots in out first one and budget for a second one in the next 6-9 months.

[Toe]

Not to mention the stability, the full UNIX compliance, the great suite of bundled applications, the security, and the excellent hardware to run it all on.
...which apparently doesn't include the Xserve RAID anymore. :) Seeing as it was Ultra-ATA, I guess it was getting rather long in the tooth.

[BenRoethig]

And that's why enterprise I.T. hates Apple.

It seems like the only solution is for Apple to make Apple Enterprise a major division of the company, almost but not quite separate from the rest of the iApple brand. That (sub)company would have to be much more open about product timelines. It would need it's own limited line of (low-cost, low-feature, expandable) hardware so that they don't have to reveal what's coming up in the consumer line of hardware. And it would have to branch OS X Server further from Client so that they could be forthcoming about the future of Server without giving away too much about Client.

And it also seems like Apple just isn't going to make Apple Enterprise anything but a minor branch of their sales department. Because they aren't ready to make that big of a commitment to Enterprise when they get so much more money from the consumer market. And they don't want consumers buying their cheapo/utilitarian business Macs.

That's a shame, since they have such a kickass server system. Everything they have (with the extremely notable exception of low-cost client computers) makes for an incredibly appealing enterprise lineup. The unlimited-users-for-everything license for OS X Server makes it vastly more appealing than Windows for so many applications. Not to mention the stability, the full UNIX compliance, the great suite of bundled applications, the security, and the excellent hardware to run it all on.

To be honest, I've been thinking Apple should have have an independent professional brand for a while now. Jobs and Ive are the masters at pretty looking consumer machines, but their approach doesn't work with Pros.

[Sayer]

Makes sense. I am sure there was a lot of pushback from Enterprise/Science customers about having to use Xserve RAID or some such nonsense. Single-vendor solutions usually get frowned upon in the big leagues (unless that vendor is Microsoft).

So why spend the Hardware R&D resources (time/money/people) on a niche product for a niche platform when there are tons of other vendors that you can support through software and open(-ish) standards?

Mac users are funny; they piss and moan when Apple makes an end-to-end solution (iTunes MS, iPod, iPhone) and then piss and moan when Apple realizes it can better serve customers by providing open, compatible solutions that work with lots of 3rd party hardware vendors *cough* Xsan 2 *cough*.

Crazy stuff.

[foidulus]

And that's why enterprise I.T. hates Apple.

It seems like the only solution is for Apple to make Apple Enterprise a major division of the company, almost but not quite separate from the rest of the iApple brand. That (sub)company would have to be much more open about product timelines. It would need it's own limited line of (low-cost, low-feature, expandable) hardware so that they don't have to reveal what's coming up in the consumer line of hardware. And it would have to branch OS X Server further from Client so that they could be forthcoming about the future of Server without giving away too much about Client.

And it also seems like Apple just isn't going to make Apple Enterprise anything but a minor branch of their sales department. Because they aren't ready to make that big of a commitment to Enterprise when they get so much more money from the consumer market. And they don't want consumers buying their cheapo/utilitarian business Macs.

That's a shame, since they have such a kickass server system. Everything they have (with the extremely notable exception of low-cost client computers) makes for an incredibly appealing enterprise lineup. OS X Server's unlimited-users-for-everything license makes it vastly more appealing than Windows for so many applications. Not to mention the stability, the full UNIX compliance, the great suite of bundled applications, the security, and the excellent hardware to run it all on.

It isn't the price that really bothers me, its the fact that Apple seems to value secrecy above everything else, even in cases where secrecy makes about 0 sense, like here. I mean, how much would Apple have actually lost if they decided a few months ago to give enterprise users a warning, "We are transitioning away from the XServe RAIDs, for the next 3 months, or while supplies last, we will still sell the RAIDs, but are transitioning to the Promise VTrack RAID system." and sold both side by side for a few months. Instead, Apple has this culture of secrecy for secrecy's sake, and it doesn't seem to matter to them how many customers they alienate, as long as they can maintain secrecy.

That will always be the #1 reason why you will not see Apple's corporate offerings get more than a sliver of the market. After all my experiences with Apple's corporate stuff, I will never EVER recommend an Apple product to be used as a server or anything else for that matter. If they want to play games, they can play games without my money or my customer's money.

I can live with the expense, I can live with the limited selections of workstations, but I cannot live with being unable to plan out more than a week in advance because Apple might arbitrarily change something tomorrow seemingly because they just feel like it.

[iFrankie]

We have two maxed out Xserve RAIDs in our server cabinets. They are awesome.

It's a sad day for Apple if they stop selling this great product.

[MacCapt]

Xsan 2. The SAN file system for Mac OS X.
- http://www.apple.com/xsan/
biggest feature: MultiSAN
- Now a single workstation or server can access multiple Xsan volumes simultaneously.
- Each volume is independently hosted, so a failure of any one volume does not affect another.
- Users can copy data between Xsan volumes directly over Fibre Channel.
- Spotlight support
- pricing the same
- qualified RAID list is not yet up but will include Promise to start
- http://www.apple.com/xsan/features/multisan.html

[ChrisA]

I think economy of scale drove this. This is just a box and power and an interface. Apple really had nothing to offer. Boxes don't run software or do much. So an Apple branded box does not do anything special. They are likely better off partnering with a 3rd party.

[foidulus]

http://www.apple.com/uk/xserve/raid/ -XServe RAID


I love the fact that they didn't even bother converting the cost per gig to pounds for the UK description, they left in $

[foidulus]

I think economy of scale drove this. This is just a box and power and an interface. Apple really had nothing to offer. Boxes don't run software or do much. So an Apple branded box does not do anything special. They are likely better off partnering with a 3rd party.

Actually Apple had some really nice RAID admin tools, made it easy to monitor lots of RAIDs at once, and had some really nice status lights that allowed you to monitor the RAID just by looking at it(you could also estimate how hard it was being hit)

From what I read on the product description page, the monitoring software for the new RAID is web based, and it doesn't look like the status lights are as nice....

No idea if it will be compatible with Apple's RAID admin software.

[simag]

Xsan is third party.
Storage is now third party.
A virtual OSX server has been demo-ed on VMware/Parallels.

Prediction: Xraid will go too and be replaced by a "virtual appliance" which will run on generic Intel hardware. While I'd tend to think a vendor such as Sun might be the partner of choice, it could be some other unknown small time player like Promise. Yesterday would have been a good day to buy into Promise.

[minik]

We have a couple Xserve RAID here in the school. Boy, it's classy. Sad to see it goes.

[bazzers]

Could this be a sign that ZFS is coming to Xserve after a revamp? I think existing Xserve's can't run ZFS. But ZFS is wonderfully easy to admin, and is unique among file systems with "end-to-end data integrity" via plenty of checksumming.
Check this comment from Apple on ZFS and storage...
From:
http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199903525
====
ZFS "is only available a read-only option from the command line," according to an Apple spokesperson.

In a follow-up interview today, [Brian] Croll [Croll, senior director of Mac OS X Product Marketing] explained, "ZFS is not the default file system for Leopard. We are exploring it as a file system option for high-end storage systems with really large storage. As a result, we have included ZFS -- a read-only copy of ZFS -- in Leopard."
[...]
Asked whether ZFS might be implemented for Apple's Xserve rack mountable server line, Croll said, "Where we head in the future, we're not able to talk about.
====

[Toe]

- qualified RAID list is not yet up but will include Promise to start
On http://www.apple.com/xsan/specs.html

Qualified RAID storage
Xserve RAID, Promise VTrak E-Class RAID Subsystem

[dtemp]

I called up Apple and got a quote for the Promise RAID unit. I got a quote through my education store, so it will be even higher if you aren't ordering for an educational institution!

The minimum amount of storage you can order with it is 8x750GB drives. The cost for this unit with about 5.4TiB of storage in the educational store is $11,999.

Great. Thanks Apple for providing a solution that is even more expensive than the already stupidly expensive XServe RAID! Looks like I'm going to have to buy the other unit I was looking at that costs $4K without drives.

[JesterJJZ]

...and I was waiting for the day when I could actually afford one of those...:(

[KevanDual2.5]

Just spoke to UK Apple Store Business guys. XServe RAID 100% gone. UK Store will likely be updated overnight.

[chubad]

But I am sure the IT departments are thrilled at the iPod Shuffle price reduction.:rolleyes:
As others have said this is why Apple will NEVER make inroads into Enterprise.
They need to have long term commitment to their products, not just zap them off their site one day.
The odd thing is that the X-Serve RAID has been installed in many installations where that is the only Apple product. It offered huge storage at a very aggressive price. It was not state of the art but not everyone needs that. Sometimes just huge amounts of storage at a reasonable price fill the bill.
They just killed their X-Serve sales with this move as well. No IT department is going to trust them not to wake up one morning and decide that it is not making enough money, so goodbye.
Apple has just shown they have ZERO interest in making inroads into Enterprise. Sad.

[Toe]

Apple: The iPhone Company that also makes computers.

Apple: The iPod company that now also makes phones! (Oh yeah, and maybe something about computers or something.)

[chubad]

I called up Apple and got a quote for the Promise RAID unit. I got a quote through my education store, so it will be even higher if you aren't ordering for an educational institution!

The minimum amount of storage you can order with it is 8x750GB drives. The cost for this unit with about 5.4TiB of storage in the educational store is $11,999.

Great. Thanks Apple for providing a solution that is even more expensive than the already stupidly expensive XServe RAID! Looks like I'm going to have to buy the other unit I was looking at that costs $4K without drives.

The X-Serve RAID was one of the least expensive solutions per GIG! What are you talking about? The price for 10TB on an X-Serve RAID was equal to 5.4 on the Promise.

[whatever]

Though I agree it's a bad thing the XRAID is gone, I don't understand the arguments that it was so great looking and the Promise solution isn't.

These are server components we're talking about. 9 times out of 10 - maybe more - they're in a rack somewhere in some closet or server room and never seen by human eyes.

This isn't an iMac or MacBook that gets looked at constantly. I don't really care what my RAID looks like, as long as it works.

That being said, the XRAID works pretty well :)

Yeah, most of the people (not all) who are commenting on this has never even seen or heard the Xserve Raid in person. And you are 100% right, those of us who use this product have it tucked away on a rack in either a closet or a computer room.

It's basically a product that other companies that focus on this type of technology can do cheaper and better than Apple.

[whatever]

Does anyone think this has any real implications or foreshadowing for professional level Apple technology, or am I just being a nervous ninny? Don't want to turn this into an "i"gadgets rant, I'm just saying I've been nervous since the whole iPhone thing and how it seemingly pushed all else to the sidelines. Hopefully I'm mistaken and my perceptions are unwarranted. :confused:

Yes, they are 100% unwarranted. See my previous post, this type of product can be done better and cheaper by another company.

[supremedesigner]

Ugly promise website... I'm expecting them to redesign their webiste soon. No one want to buy products from fugly website. IMO.

[Toe]

Yes, they are 100% unwarranted. See my previous post, this type of product can be done better and cheaper by another company.
And see my previous posts saying they are entirely warranted. Sure they can be done by other companies (better/cheaper? not sure.), but enterprise I.T. isn't ever happy with surprises, and Apple simply can't resist this sort of nasty surprise. It wreaks havoc with planning and budgeting.

(And yes, I've "seen" an Xserve RAID before... and worked with them along with every Xserve from the original ear-shattering G4 to the present.)

[Zargot]

Xserve itself is gone as well on K-12 Store... What's up with that?

[lazyrighteye]

RAID storage is one of those markets where you have to be quick on your feet. Apple is not generally known for adjusting to the market in a hurry.

There are just too many other options out there that are either faster, cheaper or both. Granted, none of them probably look as good as Xserve (although the Pro DQ from Dulce systems is nice looking), but when you're spending that much money on storage, aesthetics are probably not at the top of your list of must-have features.

http://tinyurl.com/2ohu2g

[ManchesterTrix]

Xserve itself is gone as well on K-12 Store... What's up with that?

No. It's still there.

[ManchesterTrix]

http://tinyurl.com/2ohu2g

If I replaced my XServe RAID with one of those, I'd be fired.

[Compufix]

Xserve itself is gone as well on K-12 Store... What's up with that?

It is there if you do a product search, just not on the main page and no link on the main page for Server products...and so on and so on and so on.

[JonasLondon]

...
Wonder they will do the same thing for XServe itself? Sure it is a nicely designed product with reasonable price but not many people want to run OS X Server - compatibility, performance, training reasons etc.

I think Apple should start supporting 3rd party operating systems on the Xserve (much like how Sun does - sure they would like you to buy Solaris but don't want to lose a sale if you are a Linux or Windows shop) and see the sales picking up - there is nothing lacking in that product apart from OS Vendor Support.

I'm not so sure about this. We upgraded to a "Intel" XServe Quadcore, 4 GB RAM 1x SAS + 2x 750 GB SATA drives last year. Let me tell you it is the best ever machine to admin. My parents could easily do my job when it comes to setting up a website or new users and mail accounts. Remore Management Tools are awesome (coming from Windows boxes in the last 7 years), fast and it just runs for months(!) on end. No restart every two weeks for some service patch crap. This thing just runs and runs and runs.

Never a non-Apple Server for us... :-)

dit: That being said: A SAN box is not much more than a power supply with lots of drives - THAT does not require massive "Apple" technology etc. It's like a printer or a scanner - doesn't have to come from Apple as they could not keep up with the cheap end, and why should they. Considerung marketing efforts required to pump out a box full of drives as technologically advanced... nah. Focus on the XServe, that is one hell of a hot machine. Btw. if I sound like a hyper-geek, I'm not really. Just very pleased with our XServe so far. The iPhone is still my favourite "gadget"...

[AidenShaw]

If I replaced my XServe RAID with one of those, I'd be fired.

If I were told to replace SAN storage with a toy Drobo, I'd quit. :eek:

[sixth]

My personal opinion as far as Apple is concerened in regards to moving more in the Enterprise, being an Admin myself of a Windows Server Network the only way Apple has a chance to make more of a headway into the Enterprise is by letting you install Mac OS X Server on ANY peice of hardware. There is NO WAY anyone planning on 'switching' to a Mac based network is going to purchase a Xserve and a 'Promise' SAN for the price they want for the hardware. Just my thoughts...

[AidenShaw]

... and it just runs for months(!) on end. No restart every two weeks for some service patch crap...

"Patch Tuesday" is a monthly event, not every two weeks. That bit of exaggeration costs you a lot of credility.... Why not say the truth? [typo - "credibility"]
Windows servers also stay up for month after month - one doesn't apply patches for software that's disabled or not used on a server.

[ManchesterTrix]

If I were told to replace SAN storage with a toy Drobo, I'd quit. :eek:

I don't know, such a situation would be hilarious enough that I might stick around.

[guzhogi]

Pretty much every time Apple discontinued a device, people have said it was b/c the device wasn't selling well enough or was selling too well and was cannibalizing the sales of another Apple device.

I remember the cube and people saying that it was too expensive for a consumer product but not expandable enough to be a pro computer. That's a recurring problem I see w/ Apple: while their designs are awesome, they charge too much and do too little/don't have enough options. Most current case is the MacBook Air.

But, we have to remember, the average consumer is not as well technically minded as most of you reading this so they don't really know the difference is SSD and HDD are, much less care. They just care about something that works for them. How it does it, they don't really care.

Also, it seems that Apple has a conflict of interests: on the one hand, it wants high market share. On the other hand, they want to make the really fancy, high class devices. Unfortunately, they're all fairly expensive. Plus, isn't something like 60% of the world's wealth is in 1% of the people? So a lot of people can't afford to buy Apple products.

[Riot_Mac]

I just bought an Xserve and an XRAID. I received the Xserve, but I haven't gotten the RAID yet. I wonder if this is what is holding up the RAID. Time to contact my Rep.

[parapup]

Never a non-Apple Server for us... :-)


May be for your needs OSX Server works well - but the market has voted against it. And I wasn't complaining about the hardware part of the Xserve, that part is good from price, performance and design PoV - I was saying Apple would have to kill that product like the Xserve RAID if there are few takers (that includes you and others ;) ) due to the non availability of support for popular "Enterprise" operating systems.

I mean why not give people an <i>option</i> of other more mainstream OSes - there is no point in forcing OS X Server on people if it cannot work for them. (The problems aren't just performance and stability related - software availability is also a big thing.)

[Unspeaked]

Pretty much every time Apple discontinued a device, people have said it was b/c the device wasn't selling well enough or was selling too well and was cannibalizing the sales of another Apple device.

I remember the cube and people saying that it was too expensive for a consumer product but not expandable enough to be a pro computer. That's a recurring problem I see w/ Apple: while their designs are awesome, they charge too much and do too little/don't have enough options. Most current case is the MacBook Air.

The difference between this and the Cube is the Cube was gone fairly quickly. It was available for just under a year.

The RAID, on the other hand, has been on sale in one form or another since early 2003 - five full years of availability.

So... it wasn't just a product they were testing out and decided not to sell, like the Cube.


But, we have to remember, the average consumer is not as well technically minded as most of you reading this so they don't really know the difference is SSD and HDD are, much less care. They just care about something that works for them. How it does it, they don't really care.

Also, it seems that Apple has a conflict of interests: on the one hand, it wants high market share. On the other hand, they want to make the really fancy, high class devices. Unfortunately, they're all fairly expensive. Plus, isn't something like 60% of the world's wealth is in 1% of the people? So a lot of people can't afford to buy Apple products.

Ironically, Apple's RAID was actually less expensive than most similar products and if anything, may have failed because it was viewed at as too cheap and not upscale enough :)

[parapup]

"Windows servers also stay up for month after month - one doesn't apply patches for software that's disabled or not used on a server.

To the GP - if the other OSes didn't run stable for months and did not have good admin tools and ease of use, people won't be running them - Windows Server and Linux along with IBM z/OS take the most share of server OS market and OS X Server doesn't even register in IDCs Server OS data.

All I am saying is Apple is killing a nice hardware product just because they want to push an OS no one is willing to use.

[Unspeaked]

I mean why not give people an <i>option</i> of other more mainstream OSes - there is no point in forcing OS X Server on people if it cannot work for them. (The problems aren't just performance and stability related - software availability is also a big thing.)

But why even sell the XServe if you're going to let it run anything?

I think the subset of businesses running non-Apple server environments that would want to run Apple hardware is very, very small.

[Zargot]

It is there if you do a product search, just not on the main page and no link on the main page for Server products...and so on and so on and so on.

Finally found it...

What's the point of having it so hidden? It used to be right on the front page.

[parapup]

But why even sell the XServe if you're going to let it run anything?

I think the subset of businesses running non-Apple server environments that would want to run Apple hardware is very, very small.

Offering other supported OSes along with OSX Server continues to serve the existing Apple/OSX environments and opens up the gates for the huge mainstream market.

I don't see how it is beneficial for Apple to continue selling a negligible amount of Xserves when the hardware is mostly bog standard, the price is very close to other mainstream products and there is nothing 'niche' to speak of. Previously at least if you needed a PPC server platform Apple was in a unique position - that no longer applies.

[ij3ffy]

Wow, this is a huge defeat for apple on the hardware side. The promise replacement doesn't look nearly as nice either.

[Toe]

What's the point of having it so hidden? It used to be right on the front page.
To purchase from Apple Enterprise, one used to have to basically manually place an order with a sales rep. Recently, they have been pushing enterprise clients toward company-customized versions of the Store.

Maybe they actually are starting to build an Enterprise brand as a very separate thing from their consumer channel. Just maybe.

[MacAddict1.0.1]

:( that really sucks
__________________________________________________________________
www.youtube.com/mcontherocks

[whatever]

And see my previous posts saying they are entirely warranted. Sure they can be done by other companies (better/cheaper? not sure.), but enterprise I.T. isn't ever happy with surprises, and Apple simply can't resist this sort of nasty surprise. It wreaks havoc with planning and budgeting.

(And yes, I've "seen" an Xserve RAID before... and worked with them along with every Xserve from the original ear-shattering G4 to the present.)

People are treating this like HD-DVD dying. I'm sure if Apple was selling hundreds of these units a week Apple wouldn't be pulling this item off the shelves.

Enterprise IT see companies come and go and product lines disappear all of the time.

[guzhogi]

I remember a few months ago in another thread someone said that for Apple, the money is in the hardware, but the value is in the hardware/software interaction. If Apple wants $$$, it should make good hardware. For people to actually want it and be able to do great things w/ it, make the software work great w/ the hardware. Unfortunately, Apple doesn't have the hardware. Also, the xServe RAID was WAYYYYYY behind the xServe in terms of hard drives. I don't think the RAID was ever updated other than for larger hard drives. It always used PATA drives while the xServe got SATA and then SAS hard drives. Way behind the times. Since I don't know anything about this new system, I will wait to pass judgement on it. But I'm sad that Apple isn't selling its own RAID now.

[AidenShaw]

The promise replacement doesn't look nearly as nice either.

I can't believe all the whining about the styling of the Xserve RAID - but in the end, the styling was about the only distinguishing feature of it.

It was a cheap, limited solution for a niche market.

Apple is smart to go with a third party - compare the features of the Promise E-class and the Xserve RAID and you'll see that the Promise is a far, far better system (except for people specifically looking for a cheap, limited solution).

[sterlingindigo]

The thing that bugs me the most about this story (if it's true), is the feeling it gives you that *all* Apple of products are just a coin toss away from being discontinued. It really rocks one's faith in the company in general, when you hear of products that weren't really in trouble, disappearing without warning.

The optics on this is that Apple is prepared to chuck pretty much any product that doesn't give them a market leader position with a huge margin to boot. If they can discontinue the X-Serve Raid, then anything they make could be gone tomorrow; not because it's not making money, but because it's not making enough money or isn't the very best in it's class.

That is exceedingly unsettling.

I agree, exactly what I was thinking! Very cavalier with their loyal fan base sometimes. I am seeing more and more of this lately.

[sterlingindigo]

It isn't the price that really bothers me, its the fact that Apple seems to value secrecy above everything else, even in cases where secrecy makes about 0 sense, like here. I mean, how much would Apple have actually lost if they decided a few months ago to give enterprise users a warning, "We are transitioning away from the XServe RAIDs, for the next 3 months, or while supplies last, we will still sell the RAIDs, but are transitioning to the Promise VTrack RAID system." and sold both side by side for a few months. Instead, Apple has this culture of secrecy for secrecy's sake, and it doesn't seem to matter to them how many customers they alienate, as long as they can maintain secrecy.

That will always be the #1 reason why you will not see Apple's corporate offerings get more than a sliver of the market. After all my experiences with Apple's corporate stuff, I will never EVER recommend an Apple product to be used as a server or anything else for that matter. If they want to play games, they can play games without my money or my customer's money.

I can live with the expense, I can live with the limited selections of workstations, but I cannot live with being unable to plan out more than a week in advance because Apple might arbitrarily change something tomorrow seemingly because they just feel like it.

Another very good point!

[AidenShaw]

I agree, exactly what I was thinking! Very cavalier with their loyal fan base sometimes. I am seeing more and more of this lately.

All of Apple's transitions are sudden - for example when one day the PowerMac had only PCI-X slots, and the next day it had only PCI Express slots. A real shock for those people with specialized PCI-X cards.

In the rest of the Intel world, systems usually have both PCI and PCIe slots, or they give you the option of PCI-X or PCIe - the transition is less jarring.

[Nicky G]

Very few people here have any idea what they are talking about when it comes to RAIDs. Xserve RAID was an old, way underperforming product. The new Promise RAIDs offer:

• 4Gbit fibre channel (two ports per controller)

• True active-active failover controllers, this is HUGE and is why it costs more money than Xserve RAID

• MUCH greater performance than Xserve RAID, my guess is about 3x the read and write performance per controller/LUN

• Very decent pricing when you max out a unit w/ 16 drives

• SATA AND SAS drive support!!!

This is excellent news, and if you disagree you really don't know much about this market. I have sold many dozens of Xserve RAIDs and other fibre channel RAIDs into Mac and Xsan environments, and believe me, this is GREAT news for me and my clientele.

[Consultant]

I had a hard time finding it on their site a month ago like they were hiding it. I must have bought about the last one.

It is beautiful with all it's lights on but NOISY.

All enterprise server / storage are noisy, due to fans spinning on high to circulate air.

[simag]

• True active-active failover controllers, this is HUGE and is why it costs more money than Xserve RAID


For me this is the key. Without this no one in the enterprise market will take a storage vendor seriously.

[^squirrel^]

Must say i didn't see this coming! It's a superb bit of kit and i will be really lost when it comes to upgrading our storage next time.

I hope they release something to replace it one day.

[ManchesterTrix]

I can't believe all the whining about the styling of the Xserve RAID - but in the end, the styling was about the only distinguishing feature of it.

It was a cheap, limited solution for a niche market.

Apple is smart to go with a third party - compare the features of the Promise E-class and the Xserve RAID and you'll see that the Promise is a far, far better system (except for people specifically looking for a cheap, limited solution).

The XServe RAID wasn't really all that cheap. I mean the low end one was 6000 dollars and was only equipped with 4 ATA 250 gig drives. That's not cheap, you can by unpopulated arrays with better performance for cheaper. We bought ours years ago, but there's no way I'd pick one up today.

[AidenShaw]

It's a superb bit of kit.

Yes, the Promise E-Class is superb!


The XServe RAID wasn't really all that cheap. I mean the low end one was 6000 dollars and was only equipped with 4 ATA 250 gig drives.

Of course it was expensive compared to a four drive unit.

For a populated 14 drive unit, though, it was a good deal.

[MacsRgr8]

I think we can summarise now.

Feature- and performance- wise we think it is a good move. IMHO Apple's expertise has never been in this kind of hardware development. The Xserve RAID was more of a cheap choice that performed okay, and looked terrific next to an Xserve. ;)
So getting a 3rd party RAID system gives Apple better hardware to sell their Xsan...

OTOH, if Apple really cared about their Xserve RAID customers and potential new costumers in this market, they could (and should have) announced their discontinuing a few months earlier, and mentioned them teaming up with Promise.
It feels slightly unprofessional to have ordered an Xserve RAID one day, and waking up the next to find out it suddenly has been discontinued.

Keeping iPhones, MacBooks Airs, iLife etc. secret is fun, cool and good marketing... but why the Xserve RAID...?
Like others have said, it does give you the feeling Apple can (and probably) will do the same in the near future.... Drop the Xserve, and let 3rd parties virtualise OS X Server on their hadware...?
I am sure many IT departments would like to know this in advance to be able to set their strategy regarding their Apple based servers...

[ManchesterTrix]

Of course it was expensive compared to a four drive unit.

Not at all what I was talking about. The array was overpriced for what it provided. An unpopulated VTrak E-class is cheaper than the low-end XServe RAID. You buy low-storage modules for the E-class and you're at roughly the same cost with much more performance and options.

[Unspeaked]

Very few people here have any idea what they are talking about when it comes to RAIDs. Xserve RAID was an old, way underperforming product. The new Promise RAIDs offer:

• 4Gbit fibre channel (two ports per controller)

• True active-active failover controllers, this is HUGE and is why it costs more money than Xserve RAID

• MUCH greater performance than Xserve RAID, my guess is about 3x the read and write performance per controller/LUN

• Very decent pricing when you max out a unit w/ 16 drives

• SATA AND SAS drive support!!!

This is excellent news, and if you disagree you really don't know much about this market. I have sold many dozens of Xserve RAIDs and other fibre channel RAIDs into Mac and Xsan environments, and believe me, this is GREAT news for me and my clientele.

Exactly.

Mac OS Server hardware and software existed before the XServe RAID and will continue to exist without the XServe RAID.

The main difference between this solution and Apple's discontinued RAID is that this one is better.

No downside. It simply means Apple didn't want to keep up with the RAID technology, which is fine by me. It says nothing about Apple's commitment to the enterprise or their server product.

[AidenShaw]

Not at all what I was talking about. The array was overpriced for what it provided. An unpopulated VTrak E-class is cheaper than the low-end XServe RAID. You buy low-storage modules for the E-class and you're at roughly the same cost with much more performance and options.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I also haven't tracked the price of the Xserve RAID.

In the beginning, it was a great bargain (when populated).

[ManchesterTrix]

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I also haven't tracked the price of the Xserve RAID.

In the beginning, it was a great bargain (when populated).

It definitely was a great bargain, I'm still using 5 of them and probably will be for a few years yet.

On another note, it's interesting how Promise's site has slowed to a crawl since this announcement. And if Apple would get the iscsi target/initiators done for Leopard, there'd be some other nice Promise products for people who don't need the full capability of the 4Gb Fibre Channel

[legacyb4]

Check out Coraid with their AoE solution.

I called up Apple and got a quote for the Promise RAID unit. I got a quote through my education store, so it will be even higher if you aren't ordering for an educational institution!

The minimum amount of storage you can order with it is 8x750GB drives. The cost for this unit with about 5.4TiB of storage in the educational store is $11,999.

Great. Thanks Apple for providing a solution that is even more expensive than the already stupidly expensive XServe RAID! Looks like I'm going to have to buy the other unit I was looking at that costs $4K without drives.

[mkwilson68]

The XServe RAID is a really excellent product - everyone I know who has one (myself included) are very happy with them, and compared them to many others before choosing them. I'd be surprised, given the importance of the video markets (and XSan) to Apple if it went away - it makes it harder for them to sell turnkey solutions.

Hopefully, this is just the prelude to an update - it is a product that has remained largely unchanged for quite a while.

[Toe]

All of Apple's transitions are sudden - for example when one day the PowerMac had only PCI-X slots, and the next day it had only PCI Express slots. A real shock for those people with specialized PCI-X cards.

In the rest of the Intel world, systems usually have both PCI and PCIe slots, or they give you the option of PCI-X or PCIe - the transition is less jarring.

You can still get new Xserves with one PCI-X riser and one PCI-e (or two PCI-e).

For me, who hadn't been following the evolution of PCI, the jarring part was distinguishing between "PCI X" and the almost identical sounding "PCI Express." :rolleyes: The former sounds like an abbreviation of the latter.

[Chisholm]

The floor of NAB is littered with folks offering SAN solutions. A TerraBlock rep came for a demo last week and a compelling feature he mentioned was the almost instant formatting of the drives. All the editors in the room had a collective gasp.

NAB should be interesting this year with both Avid and Apple not being there. At least they won't be shouting over each other's presentations.

[agdickinson]

I've been checking and the Xserve RAID is still available in the Apple online UK Store.

The 1Tb has a 6-8 week ship, 3.5Tb 7 days shipping, and 7Tb 7 days shipping, so still looks like there is a lot of inventory in Europe. Just checked also the BTO 10Tb is ready to ship in 7 days too.

So I'm wondering what is happening here?

[AidenShaw]

A TerraBlock rep came for a demo last week and a compelling feature he mentioned was the almost instant formatting of the drives. All the editors in the room had a collective gasp.

HP has had this for many years on their internal RAID controllers, as well as fibre - even conversions, you can "instantly" convert a RAID-0 set to a RAID-6 set, for example. (Others have it too...)

Did TerraBlock mention any caveats, such as the real formatting takes place in the background, and performance is a bit off until it's done?

(I assume that you're talking about "formatting" the raw spindles into a volume on the SAN controller, not the "format" (or "mkfs") command at the OS that puts the filesystem meta-data on the volume)

[winterspan]

... at least from Apple perspective. I am not sure that the XServe RAID sales were significant and there is no strategic reason for Apple to keep that product alive.

Wonder they will do the same thing for XServe itself? Sure it is a nicely designed product with reasonable price but not many people want to run OS X Server - compatibility, performance, training reasons etc.

I think Apple should start supporting 3rd party operating systems on the Xserve (much like how Sun does - sure they would like you to buy Solaris but don't want to lose a sale if you are a Linux or Windows shop) and see the sales picking up - there is nothing lacking in that product apart from OS Vendor Support.

I assume it wouldn't be too hard to run a BSD or Linux distro on the Xserve...
Does anyone have experience doing this? Or know if there is driver support for all the hardware?

[bigandy]

sad to see it go - one of my clients has a bunch of them - but i've been thinking this would happen for quite some time. it was really needing an update, and for al the positive points, i guess it just wasn't work investing in the R&D for an updated one. :(


"Patch Tuesday" is a monthly event, not every two weeks. That bit of exaggeration costs you a lot of credility.... Why not say the truth?

Windows servers also stay up for month after month - one doesn't apply patches for software that's disabled or not used on a server.

very good point, but i must ask, what's credility?


;) :p

[AidenShaw]

...but i must ask, what's credility?


;) :p


Something that you don't get by making a statement that's well known to be untrue.

------

:o ...just noticed the typo, sorry!

(Google gets 1600 hits on "credility", and Yahoo gets 2060... Unfortunately dictionary.com gets 0 ;) )

[Amuraivel]

credulity
believability

[Chisholm]

HP has had this for many years on their internal RAID controllers, as well as fibre - even conversions, you can "instantly" convert a RAID-0 set to a RAID-6 set, for example. (Others have it too...)

Did TerraBlock mention any caveats, such as the real formatting takes place in the background, and performance is a bit off until it's done?

(I assume that you're talking about "formatting" the raw spindles into a volume on the SAN controller, not the "format" (or "mkfs") command at the OS that puts the filesystem meta-data on the volume)

Well, the words came out of the salesman's mouth and the engineer didn't correct him. I have a general mistrust for salesmen when peddling expensive SANs to editors that know nothing of how hardware works. I suppose if you whip an engineer enough they will become compliant and keep their mouth shut.

There was no mention of anything in the background. I fortunately had an important phone call (ahem) and had to leave 10 minutes into the demo.

[morespce54]

...It's basically a product that other companies that focus on this type of technology can do cheaper and better than Apple.

Yeah, like, I don't know, compters! ;) just kidding!

[AidenShaw]

Well, the words came out of the salesman's mouth and the engineer didn't correct him. I have a general mistrust for salesmen when peddling expensive SANs to editors that know nothing of how hardware works. I suppose if you whip an engineer enough they will become compliant and keep their mouth shut.

There was no mention of anything in the background. I fortunately had an important phone call (ahem) and had to leave 10 minutes into the demo.

My point is just that the "format these 32 drives into two RAID-6 volumes with 4 hot spares" command is "instant" on many RAID arrays and controllers.

"Instant" in the sense that the volume can have a filesystem put on it and used right away. It will take some time for the volume to reach full performance, though.

RAID-0 can be truly instant - but any RAID with redundancy or parity must either be written to a known consistent state, or the controller must keep track of where data has been written and "do the right thing". The HP controllers do both - in the background the entire volume is written, but it "does the right thing" with read/write requests that come in while the formatting is in progress.

[parapup]

I assume it wouldn't be too hard to run a BSD or Linux distro on the Xserve...
Does anyone have experience doing this? Or know if there is driver support for all the hardware?

Sure Linux can be made to run on any hardware :) - but that wasn't my point. I was talking about Linux/Solaris/Windows as supported OSes on the Xserve. For example if you look at Sun's x64 servers (http://www.sun.com/servers/x64/x4600/os.jsp) - they sell you Solaris pre-installed but you could also buy certified and supported Windows and Linux OSes for that hardware.

For businesses the support and certification is crucial.

[Toe]

(Google gets 1600 hits on "credility", and Yahoo gets 2060... Unfortunately dictionary.com gets 0 ;) )
Here I was thinking maybe it was a Scottish spelling or something... I'll bet you could have gotten away with that. ;)

[AidenShaw]

Here I was thinking maybe it was a Scottish spelling or something... I'll bet you could have gotten away with that. ;)

But wouldn't I lose credility if I tried (and was caught)?

[drsmithy]

I mean why not give people an <i>option</i> of other more mainstream OSes - there is no point in forcing OS X Server on people if it cannot work for them. (The problems aren't just performance and stability related - software availability is also a big thing.)

Why would you buy an Xserve except to run OS X ?

[AidenShaw]

Why would you buy an Xserve except to run OS X ?

Masochism?

But you have a point - there is so much choice in Intel/AMD rackmount servers, why would one be attracted to one of the handful of SKUs that Apple would sell?

[parapup]

Masochism?

Ugh. Give me a break. Running OSX Server would be Masochism for many.

Choice of good hardware is never a bad thing for anyone if supported software is available.
The Xserve is good product which is also competitively priced - so why not?

[parapup]

Why would you buy an Xserve except to run OS X ?

As a customer any one would like to have more choices - Xserve would make a good competition even for the saturated x86 server market. The price is right, the design is good - so why not?

[Toe]

As a customer any one would like to have more choices - Xserve would make a good competition even for the saturated x86 server market. The price is right, the design is good - so why not?

The industrial design of the Xserve is great, assuming you want a 1u server with no more than three internal drives, and you're not interested in using much in the way of PCI cards.

But presumably some of what you are paying is for OS X Server, which you're going to throw away to install a free OS (or pay again for another OS?). The Xserve seems like a good value, but I doubt many people buy it to run other OSes.

However, I can imagine that people who buy a lot of non-Apple servers might buy some Xserves to run specific applications on OS X Server. The configuration of Leopard Server is awfully simple compared to many Linux implementations. If a high-paid technician has to set up a server for several hours, was it really worth the few bucks saved on the hardware? They could just buy an Xserve and have a robust wiki server (or whatever) in a ten minutes (plus software updates).

[Toe]

But wouldn't I lose credility if I tried (and was caught)?

Good point. The internet is a highly-backed-up archive of everything everyone has posted to it.

That's something society (including myself) hasn't fully grasped, I suppose.

[AidenShaw]

The industrial design of the Xserve is great, assuming you want a 1u server with no more than three internal drives, and you're not interested in using much in the way of PCI cards.

"Styling" isn't on the check list for most server purchases. :D

A ProLiant DL360g5 (http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/en/WF04a/15351-15351-3328412-241644-241475.html) is a 1U server with six drive slots, builtin RAID with 256 MiB cache and battery backup, iSCSI acceleration built into two GbE NICs, and a bunch of other availability features.

Even better, it has a 2U brother - the DL380g5 (http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/en/WF04a/15351-15351-3328412-241644-241475.html). Basically the same motherboard, but 8 internal drives and up to 5 slots.

Need more, then the DL580g5 (http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/en/WF05a/15351-15351-3328412-241644-3328422-3454575.html). 16 core (quad quads), upto 256 GiB RAM, 16 internal drives, eight slots standard: (4) full length PCI-E x8, (1) full length PCI-E x4 and (3) half length PCI-E x4 slots; optional card adds (3) PCI-X or (3) PCI-E x8.

There's even a smaller brother, the DL320g5 (http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/en/WF04a/15351-15351-3328412-241644-241475.html). This is a cheaper 1U or 2U with a single socket.

The point isn't to knock the Xserve itself, but to show how limited Apple's choices are. Having a compatible family of machines is an important purchasing factor for many companies. People expenses are higher than machine costs, and people get more done when all the systems look and act the same, and share common parts (hot swap disks, PCIe cards, memory,...) and utilities.

Apple's not going to get far into the enterprise by offering a single reasonably-priced mid-range 1U server - regardless of its merits.

It's clear that Apple's Xserve main target is the people who want rack-mount OSX workstations for render farms (embarrassingly parallel grid applications), and those looking for a strong file/web server for OSX-based design workgroups. It's good for those, but it's not going to break open the glass computer room.

And their sudden product cancellations and redirections won't help either. How would you like to be running the Virginia Tech cluster now with its 1100 PowerPC Xserves? (http://www.apple.com/science/profiles/vatech2/)

[greentree_uk]

well Like others the End of the current xraid has long been on the cards. I always expected a new xraid to come along. Apple brought to us a cheap at the time, affordable raid solution that was guaranteed to work with Apple machines. as a Reseller it also brought part availability to us. these raid boxes are not cheap and i'm sure a spare parts kit isn't either! I knew RAID 6 is going to be needed. large volumes of data need that redundancy. The Xserve RAID brought true raid solutions to places it hadn't been before and for that I'm thankful. However I am concerned that like the RAID Apple's cinema Displays are also an ageing breed. will apple dump these aswell? am I the only one who sees the similarity?

[MikeTheC]

My guess is that this is a stop-gap measure. It'll give them the time to re-assess whether or not this is a market they feel they can likely compete in and win.

However, at this point most of the people and companies I know who have and run servers are either using Linux or Win2xxx Server solutions, and not anything from Apple. I think they missed the point that what the server market seems to want is either cheap hardware in large volume, or premium-priced solutions with the premium price point due to 24x7 on-call service and support, not "designer-label" pricing.

There's no denying Apple's enclosures are beautiful and some of the most visually pleasing, but (no offense) IT and MIS folk aren't exactly known for their aesthetic sensibilities.

[AidenShaw]

My guess is that this is a stop-gap measure. It'll give them the time to re-assess whether or not this is a market they feel they can likely compete in and win.

However, at this point most of the people and companies I know who have and run servers are either using Linux or Win2xxx Server solutions, and not anything from Apple. I think they missed the point that what the server market seems to want is either cheap hardware in large volume, or premium-priced solutions with the premium price point due to 24x7 on-call service and support, not "designer-label" pricing.

I believe that this is a permanent exit from the SAN storage business - for all the reasons in your second paragraph.

Partnering with a company that specializes in storage is a smart move - it's just part of Apple's transition from a computer company to an electronic gadget company.


There's no denying Apple's enclosures are beautiful and some of the most visually pleasing, but (no offense) IT and MIS folk aren't exactly known for their aesthetic sensibilities.

And those who do have an artistic flair don't see the point in considering "stying" in a device that will be in a rack in a locked computer room. ;)

[mdriftmeyer]

I believe that this is a permanent exit from the SAN storage business - for all the reasons in your second paragraph.

Partnering with a company that specializes in storage is a smart move - it's just part of Apple's transition from a computer company to an electronic gadget company.




And those who do have an artistic flair don't see the point in considering "stying" in a device that will be in a rack in a locked computer room. ;)

They aren't exiting this business. They are using XSan to be the Microsoft of Storage Network Hardware Vendors.

[Toe]

And those who do have an artistic flair don't see the point in considering "stying" in a device that will be in a rack in a locked computer room. ;)

Industrial design is more than just styling, though. When people talk about Apple's great designs, they also mean the way things are put together. Granted designs like the mini and the iMac are somewhat cramped, but the Xserve RAID was an extremely well-put-together machine in every sense.

Well, except for the need to lock it or risk destroying your data by bumping into it. That's a bit... uncool. Even if you rarely go near the thing.

[AidenShaw]

Industrial design is more than just styling, though. When people talk about Apple's great designs, they also mean the way things are put together.

Check out the HP ProLiants. Also excellent design (in that sense), with toolless installation, front panel diagnostic lights and a little blue light with a switch front and back.

HP also comes with ILO standard - there's an extra ethernet port that you can use to contact the maintenance controller and power cycle remotely, or grab the console input/output.

Anyway, my earlier point that "Apple's not going to get far into the enterprise by offering a single reasonably-priced mid-range 1U server - regardless of its merits" is key.

The Xserve isn't bad, but some people like to scale up as well as out. "One size fits all" doesn't work for a lot of businesses.

[MikeTheC]

^-- And this simply proves Apple is not that serious about enterprise business. Sad to say, but true.

[AidenShaw]

They aren't exiting this business. They are using XSan to be the Microsoft of Storage Network Hardware Vendors.

That's funny. XSan is software, for starters.

They did just exit the fibre storage manufacturing business, and instead chose to partner with a company with superior products.

[Jackal-Head]

http://tinyurl.com/2ohu2g

"Connections: Hi-Speed USB"

Thanks for the laugh. Even the 2,5" 250GB pocket drive I bought last week supports FireWire 800 with 3-4 times the effective bandwidth of Hi-Speed USB. And FW800 would still look funny on a professional RAID that can saturate several multi-gbps Fibre Channel or InfiniBand links.

[Toe]

"Connections: Hi-Speed USB"

Thanks for the laugh. Even the 2,5" 250GB pocket drive I bought last week supports FireWire 800 with 3-4 times the effective bandwidth of Hi-Speed USB. And FW800 would still look funny on a professional RAID that can saturate several multi-gbps Fibre Channel or InfiniBand links.

If the original point was to find a cool-looking RAID other than the Xserve RAID, one doesn't have to look far. The Apple product was somewhat sleek, but heck, Medea (I guess Avid now) has them beat on the looks.
http://www.avid.com/products/videoRAID/

As for why one would ever care about how a RAID looks... Well, it's a long shot, but I suppose there are traveling racks, particularly of a/v equipment for doing digital processing on-site at an event. But I still am not sure why a/v techies would need their hardware to be particularly cool-looking, even if the public is going to see it.

That said... given a choice, plenty of geeks will opt to put something cool looking on their rack if it is otherwise the same as something boring. If nothing else, it impresses the suits on their bi-annual visit to the nerd cave.

;)

[AidenShaw]

That said... given a choice, plenty of geeks will opt to put something cool looking on their rack if it is otherwise the same as something boring.

On the other hand, two great styles might clash if put in the same rack....

[diamond.g]

On the other hand, two great styles might clash if put in the same rack....

Why not replace those Compaqs with Apples XServe? You know make your rack look uniform.

[AidenShaw]

Why not replace those Compaqs with Apples XServe? You know make your rack look uniform.

I would guess that:


Linux isn't supported on the Xserve
The ProLiants have 6 drive slots
The ProLiants have builtin hardware RAID to protect the system and data drives (it's hard to get a computer repairman during the winter)

[diamond.g]

I would guess that:


Linux isn't supported on the Xserve
The ProLiants have 6 drive slots
The ProLiants have builtin hardware RAID to protect the system and data drives (it's hard to get a computer repairman during the winter)

I should have included a smiley. I was only kidding. We use Compaqs for our DC's and mail servers. Of course we connect them to a SAN (EMC Clariion) but you get the point.

[greentree_uk]

I actually have a client with an xserve running linux. I asked him why, he said because he could....... it's a noisy bugger tho. no fan control. it was a g5 xserve.

[AidenShaw]

(it's hard to get a computer repairman during the winter)

Nobody asked why winter service was an issue....


Xserve RAID storage installed at South Pole (http://alienraid.org/article.php?story=icecuberaid)