3G iPhone preview at WWDC, Release July 11 - Who, When Where, What, Why & how much [Archive]

t0mat0

Feb 20, 2008, 12:54 PM

Edit: It's been a long thread, but as of the keynote - the keynote gave a preview of the 3G iPhone, which may or may not have more features than shown when launched on July 11 in 22 countries.

//Previous initial post below.

I'm starting this thread to look into these again, as I think the 3G is pretty close, but wanted to get some accurate info on dates and such.

Reasons why no 3G iPhone yet: Battery life, 3g chips that hog battery, and the U.S. having eff all 3G i.e. being behind Europe, Japan, etc on 3G cover.

Battery: Incremental update, the 3G iPhone will have a slightly better amount of charge it can hold. Battery life is also related in large part to the use of internet, EDGE and 3G

3G chip: Broadcom BCM21551 - It's the 3G iPhone's saviour chip.

http://www.broadcom.com/products/Cellular/3G-Baseband-Processors/BCM21551
http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/21551-PB02-R.pdf

3G iPhone will, if it goes with the BCM21551 and doesn't sneak some bespoke Broadcom chip it's been secretly working on will finally have FM radio! Up to 5Mpixel camera, Stereo head set. A bonus? An FM radio transmitter (for car stereo music playback).
Optional extra chips compatible: GPS: BCM4750 Single-Chip AGPS Solution
Mobile multimedia, Mobile TV, & Mobile Power Management, DVB: BCM2940

BCM21551 was early access Oct 2007, and said to be available large amounts in 6 months. Which pegs it at March - May max, unless Apple wants to drag it out. Priced at $23.00 in large quantities, and gives decent efficiencies being a System on a Chip.

Contenders
(I'm still looking, but most are 3Q 2008. E.g. 4th edition S60 (which won't be called 4th edition) will be coming out by late 2008, and announced mid 08
(which will tbe finger and stylus sensitive)

Seeing as no other manufacturer is saying they're using them this summer, Apple might have carte blanche to grab as many as it can now.

Seeing as how Apple's iPhone is "a year ahead" and all, you'd think
a) They'd want to retain that lead ahead of competitors rushing out touchscreens this year
b) Only tech parts and controlled timings of product releases hold them back

So people - what events hold Apple back from announcing the 3G iPhone FCC trials next Tuesday? They could keep it secret for a while, but Apple will have to pre-launch it before FCC to get a decent product launch.

http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8838596703.html

Edit: Watch for rumours on Japan or Portugal release dates.
Edit: Currently 2Q is the best bet. Do they lose sales by waiting till June? Are they held up by hardware or software till then? As long as announcement to shipping time is short, they won't lose too many sales in the meantime, and actually make a lot more once it's shipping (that'd be all those people waiting for 3G first).

dj420118

Feb 20, 2008, 12:57 PM

So when will i have my 3G iPhone:(

KD7IWP

Feb 20, 2008, 01:14 PM

Heck, when will I have my iPhone! (canada....)

TXCraig

Feb 20, 2008, 01:32 PM

So people - what events hold Apple back from announcing the 3G iPhone FCC trials next Tuesday? They could keep it secret for a while, but Apple will have to pre-launch it before FCC to get a decent product launch.

http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8838596703.html

Don't think you will see an early announcment for a 3G version of the phone as it will KILL new iPhone sales. Steve said they have commited to selling 10 million iPhones by the end of this year and will not make an "pre-launch" speach that would stop the current sales of the phone.

I like how you outlined the inforamtion in the OP but Apple has not said it would use the Broadcomm chipset yet. They may be working with another vendor and it will not be announced until it shows up in the iPhone.

I would not hold your breath on a 3G iPhone in 2008.]

I do think you will see AT&T / O2 / T-Mobile continue to lower tariffs on the phone to attract new customers... and prices to continue to fall on the iPhone itself.

t0mat0

Feb 20, 2008, 02:10 PM

Don't think you will see an early announcment for a 3G version of the phone as it will KILL new iPhone sales. Steve said they have commited to selling 10 million iPhones by the end of this year and will not make an "pre-launch" speach that would stop the current sales of the phone.
...Apple has not said it would use the Broadcomm chipset yet. They may be working with another vendor and it will not be announced until it shows up in the iPhone.
I would not hold your breath on a 3G iPhone in 2008.]
I do think you will see AT&T / O2 / T-Mobile continue to lower tariffs on the phone to attract new customers... and prices to continue to fall on the iPhone itself.

Early announcement - I don't see it either. What i'm saying is that Broadcom chip usage will come out late 2008 afaik by other Cellphone providers - which will massively eat into the iPhone lead in touch screen phones.
Apple will want the 3G iPhone out as soon as they can after FCC shows it's testing it. If they could they'd want even that silenced till it comes out.

Apple haven't said they'll use it -but from all the reports, it's the first one that does 3G without draining the battery like crazy. That was one of the main reasons we didn't see 3G apparently.

Japan's getting iPhone in 2008 - They don't do EDGE - Ergo it has to be a 3G. So there will be a release in Japan but not the US? As above, they'll want to get the 3G version out to all markets, otherwise the sales would immediately seize up as people wait for their local 3G release.

As for price releases - yes.

I'm going to see if I can find anything that rivals it, and look into the current tear down chips in the iPhone, but as I said, the Broadcom SoC just kicks everyone elses ass right now. Unless Apple's in cahoots with a secret R&D SoC with Samsung etc, then Broadcom is it.

nantucketlooper

Feb 20, 2008, 02:50 PM

So where are all the 16 gb iphones? The South Fla stores are sold out.

Island Dog

Feb 20, 2008, 02:55 PM

How many more threads about 3G?

drb6

Feb 20, 2008, 03:13 PM

I would not hold your breath on a 3G iPhone in 2008.

I think its almost certain we will see 3G in 2008, when exactly...is the debate in my opinion. Summer and Fall are the big events so I assume apple will announce those then with availability about 2 months later after the FCC approve (6 week process I hear)

I don't think apple can go more than a year and a half without releasing a new version. Sure there are problems with getting 3G on the iPhone but I don't think they are so insurmountable that essentially 18 months since the original release they have made no progress.

And make no mistake, people at apple have been working on a 3G model since then if not before.

JoelT00

Feb 20, 2008, 03:20 PM

A friend of mine that works with AT&T says April. Don't hold me to that though.

dangleheart

Feb 20, 2008, 03:26 PM

natejohnstone@g

Feb 20, 2008, 03:42 PM

10 Million iPhones doesn't mean Gen1, it means total. In fact, they'll sell far more when the Gen2 (i.e. 3G) iPhones come out!

I think they should announce early, but not 6 months out. Announce 2 months out and then discount the current models so that those who don't need 3G can gobble them up cheap (and they will).

But it needs to have:

3G
32GB

And it should have:

Stylus optional
iSight (1st even true Video Phone baby!!)
SD card slot
"Word" compatible program (read and right, saves in Word format)
Better battery life
Games! (REAL games, not crappy arcade games but ports from PSP or DS)

I just hope they announce it soon. I need to get a new iPod, and would rather upgrade to an iPhone than buy another Nano. But I can't wait for long.

Skilgannon

Feb 20, 2008, 04:03 PM

Games! (REAL games, not crappy arcade games but ports from PSP or DS)

I guess you also want Crysis to run on your iPhone?

Keeping it short you want:
-32 Gb;
-3G;
-Video-recording (I assume 5 Mp camera)
-And able to run PSP games.

A cellphone with 30 minutes of lifetime, wow.

About the 3G only coming out in Q3 2008, it is an almost proved rumor that the iPhone will reach the Portuguese market this March and we don't have EDGE either... we have ony 3G and GPRS.

lscottiv

Feb 20, 2008, 04:12 PM

Isn't one of the issues the lack of AT&T 3G in the US?

anthonymoody

Feb 20, 2008, 04:14 PM

The date is easy - it'll be announced by Steve in his keynote this June at the WDC for release a couple months after that, call it September. This gives a 2+ month cushion for the device to go through the FCC's all-too-revealing process, which not even el-Jobso can silence.

t0mat0

Feb 20, 2008, 05:38 PM

This is one of the more intelligent threads on 3G. Kudos to t0mat0. Very good reasoning, whether it pans out or not. So let us keep going. Stop polluting this thread with silly and unintelligent wisecracks :p

Merci. I'm a fan of silly and intelligent wisecracks hehe. Worst thing is for the last page to miss out on the thread of the thread, so devolve to offtopic slanging.
Anyhow. A reply:

Japan

Japan's the key. It dictates things. It's going to be 2008, but I have to backtrack - I relooked at Japan material, and it's vaguerer than I thought about date - it could shift to Q3 :/

Alternative chips
Liberty4all did a nice post on a possible alternative - the Samsung

I wrote it off initially, but seeing as it's Samsung... Who do the NAND for iPhone(8-Gbyte MLC NAND flash (K9MCG08U5M)) & the NAND for nano iPod - it's a slap in the face for Q2.5 optimism (i.e. a 3G on iPhone's birthday). Jobs might hold the 3G iPhone till a nice launch on a suitable conference too.

Samsung, supplied the main microprocessor chip for the current iPhone (which is stamped with an Apple logo, but with a serial # that matches closely a chip that Samsung sells. The core design is based on ARM (it liscenses nowadays 0- a Newton Apple irony if you know the history).The Samsung chip features a three stacked die package containing the S5L8900 processor and two 512 Mbit SRAM dies.

It's beyond me at this point as to what the main chip on the current iPhone does versus the new Broadcom chip.

The Samsung chip could get rid of the Infineon PMB8876 S-Gold 2 multimedia engine with advanced EDGE functionality. The Broadcom could get rid of the BlueCore 4 ROM (a Bluetooth component) (and maybe the Marvell 88W8686 (a is a 90-nm Wireless LAN device)).

Samsung's ARM-based S3C6410 "mobile application processor" :
- At the heart of the 65nm manufactured chip is an ARM1176 processor core.

The kicker: "The S3C6410 processor is expected to be available in sample quantities in May, with mass production scheduled for the 3Q of 2008."

That means that if Apple took the chip, its only able to manufacture and get to store by 3Q. And Nokia et al are aiming for that window too. Now the N96 might be a "throw everything at it" phone, but it's a contender in that ring, and the S60 4th edition will be out around then too.

Follow the SDK
The SDK may show up what's in line for the 3G iPhone - Apple you would think would want to make sure every programmer doesn't have to do a rewrite of code a few months down the line just because Apple wanted to keep the 3G quiet.

Could it be Broadcom? Well, Apple does use Broadcom in a limited capacity in the iPhone already (BCM5973A chip in the current iPhone). But it's a major leap to go from the BCM5973A chip to the main stage 3G iPhone SoC fun, frolics & meat&veg provider chip.

My search has gone cold at the moment. Anyone hear who got the second 7 million unit shipment from Balda's touchscreen dept? Apple, or Nokia?

http://blogs.cnet.com/8301-13924_1-9...?tag=nefd.only
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/07/02/iphone_video_teardown_reveals_samsung_intel_balda_design_wins.html
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=431982

Keeping it short you want:
-32 Gb;
-3G;
-Video-recording (I assume 5 Mp camera)
-And able to run PSP games.

A cellphone with 30 minutes of lifetime, wow.

About the 3G only coming out in Q3 2008, it is an almost proved rumor that the iPhone will reach the Portuguese market this March and we don't have EDGE either... we have ony 3G and GPRS.

If you looked at the stats of the Broadcom chip in my post, you'd see that the above specs are highly feasable bar the PSP - i'd imagine a simulator will get some older games running anyhow (I think they'll be more than Sonic soon). The 3G will def have 32Gb, will be £G and there will be a camera bump. Any main chip will have video capacity by then - heck the iPhone's been modded to do video already, it's just a software issue afaik.

So now we have Japan and Portugal to watch :)

As an aside - I never knew reverse engineering went so far: http://www.semiconductor.com/resources/reports_database/view_report.asp?pid=4807

Sobe

Feb 20, 2008, 05:47 PM

teaser thread titles suck.

natejohnstone@g

Feb 20, 2008, 06:22 PM

If you looked at the stats of the Broadcom chip in my post, you'd see that the above specs are highly feasable bar the PSP - i'd imagine a simulator will get some older games running anyhow (I think they'll be more than Sonic soon). The 3G will def have 32Gb, will be £G and there will be a camera bump. Any main chip will have video capacity by then - heck the iPhone's been modded to do video already, it's just a software issue afaik.

I DID notice that which I why I posted. The same chip could be used for a PSPhone I'll bet. Apple did file that patent recently for a "gaming device," and although I doubt that they are planning to release a dedicated iPlay or something like that, having more gaming functionality on the iPhone would be sweet. No I don't mean Crysis, but some PSP or DS ports would be awesome. That is a pretty big market nitche that Apple would do well to snag before someone else does (Sony).

As far as video, you're saying they'd simply have to add the full "iSight" functionality to it software wise? That would be sweet. I personally won't use the internet functionalities all that much, but I would use Video Chat a lot because, well, who doesn't want a video phone? It's like a Sci-Fi nerd's wetdream.

And yes AT&T has 3G already in many areas of the US (though not mine) and plans to increase it. But for me, the iPhone 2's real advantage is that I could (hopefully!) switch it to a Japanese or European carrier next year when I am ordered overseas.

t0mat0

Feb 20, 2008, 06:38 PM

Apple did file that patent recently for a "gaming device," and although I doubt that they are planning to release a dedicated iPlay or something like that, having more gaming functionality on the iPhone would be sweet.
As far as video, you're saying they'd simply have to add the full "iSight" functionality to it software wise? That would be sweet. I personally won't use the internet functionalities all that much, but I would use Video Chat a lot because, well, who doesn't want a video phone? It's like a Sci-Fi nerd's wetdream.

And yes AT&T has 3G already in many areas of the US (though not mine) and plans to increase it. But for me, the iPhone 2's real advantage is that I could (hopefully!) switch it to a Japanese or European carrier next year when I am ordered overseas.

The Samsung supports an iSight - i.e. it's got the legs to do video calls. Apparently it can show and record video at the same time - Qik and Mogulus might have a new ring leader :) not sure about the Broadcom's capabilities on that front (it has USB somewhere - miniUSB out ftw?)

Video phoning hasn't yet hit a critical mass. heck - i got a N73 for the reason i could video call my girlfriend, but it never worked out. never used my front
cam since. Do you know anyone who actually uses it? I'd imagine it'd come more popular if you could start using Skype video calls :D

Good point about the carrier - An unlocked 3G iPhone has a lot more attractiveness in any 3g market, e.g. Britain. Throw in a local SIM and you're laughing. Makes U.S. to UK/Europe trips easier too potentially.

CalmEnvy

Feb 20, 2008, 06:42 PM

Heck, when will I have my iPhone! (canada....)

When Roger's will come to an agreement with Apple about the Data Plans. Basically never since Roger's sucks (I feel your pain, I want an iPhone to).

convergedworld

Feb 20, 2008, 07:20 PM

BCM21551 was early access Oct 2007, and said to be available large amounts in 6 months. Which pegs it at March - May max, unless Apple wants to drag it out. Priced at $23.00 in large quantities, and gives decent efficiencies being a System on a Chip.

The time from sampling to commercial handsets is much longer than six months. Broadcom has indicated that the first handsets based on this chipset wont be out until 2009 and I think the 2nd half is more likely than the 1st.

t0mat0

Feb 20, 2008, 07:57 PM

The time from sampling to commercial handsets is much longer than six months. Broadcom has indicated that the first handsets based on this chipset wont be out until 2009 and I think the 2nd half is more likely than the 1st.

So if you can cite a reference, that's a plus towards Broadcom not being the main chip. How would Broadcom know the turnaround of the chip to handset release? I'm curious, as I haven't seen anything from Broadcom yet saying they're falling back to not release in quantity until say Q3 3008.
You've got to also wonder - if Broadcom *was* getting Apple's trade, they wouldn't really flaunt that. Companies have been been hurt for doing less to Apple. It would be an indication of the next gen's specs, and also a very good eta to market, if you know the turnaround time.

I thought it was open to earyl access customers. Wouldn't Apple potentially fall into that category?

natejohnstone@g

Feb 20, 2008, 08:25 PM

I think your theory sounds very plausible, but I hope the timetable is a bit sooner. If they released early Q3, then maybe we could get an announcement a couple months earlier (due to the FCC issues), which could put us at this Spring!

Maybe they will wait until the June conference, but I don't think they need to. That's useful for new products, but this is really a major update more than a new product. Honestly, a year is a VERY VERY long time in the mobile phone game, I"m surprised they have been able to hold out this long to tell the truth.

I'm guessing we'll see another price drop soon so that they can start to move some inventory, then an announcement followed by another price drop to clear out/keep sales going until the next version.

It's not like they don't keep selling MacBooks a month before a "known" update is coming. Maybe not as many, but still.

jbellanca

Feb 20, 2008, 08:58 PM

Isn't one of the issues the lack of AT&T 3G in the US?

No, not really. AT&T has 3G coverage in over 200+ markets, which kinda covers every metro area and then a whole bunch. I use 3G with AT&T traveling every week for work and get coverage everywhere I've been the last year (except the real rural areas).

kdarling

Feb 20, 2008, 09:26 PM

Apple haven't said they'll use it -but from all the reports, it's the first one that does 3G without draining the battery like crazy. That was one of the main reasons we didn't see 3G apparently.

But which for some reason doesn't stop the zillions of 3G phones already being made.

I think Piper Jaffray had it right in their original article on the iPhone... it would've added too much to the cost for an initial model. (They also got the price drop right.)

Jan 2007 Article (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/01/30/piperjaffray_takes_a_closer_look_at_apples_iphone.html)

Hummer

Feb 20, 2008, 09:28 PM

Justinerator

Feb 20, 2008, 10:02 PM

I have a question. If Verizon said yes, what was Apple going to do? Were they just going to give us 3G and say too bad for the battery life and form factor? Or would we even have received iPhones by the time we did?

interesting question. I would figure they would have released it at the same time, but possibly with a larger charge capability to counter the excess drainage... just my .02

JBaker122586

Feb 20, 2008, 10:02 PM

And it should have:

Stylus optional

Will NEVER happen.

iSight (1st even true Video Phone baby!!)

Will not happen for YEARS.

SD card slot

Will NOT happen.

"Word" compatible program (read and right, saves in Word format)

Can easily happen without a hardware update.

t0mat0

Feb 20, 2008, 10:08 PM

The time from sampling to commercial handsets is much longer than six months. Broadcom has indicated that the first handsets based on this chipset wont be out until 2009 and I think the 2nd half is more likely than the 1st.

Doing EDGE then 3G allowed Apple to crawl and walk with the iPhone (remember the iPhone preproduction was looking ropey very close to the keynote for example). The selling point of Internet in your pocket would have been blown out of the water if 3G had originally been there, as nonoptimised power usage of the 3G chip, combined with the higher use of the internet in comparison to nearly any other mobile device, would have lead to flat batteries way too quickly.

Going back to convergedworld's point: I tracked down the article in question (sort of - it's syndicated to other EE's). First thing to note, it's from October 2007. There's been a recent major mobile phone convention since then, and 4 months.

http://www.eeproductcenter.com/micro/brief/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=202402764

The specific wording is needed, as it can imply things:
Mike Civiello, senior director of marketing at Broadcom's Mobile and Wireless business unit: "We have engineering samples and we anticipate that HSUPA phones targeting the mid-tier price market using the part will be on sale during the first half of 2009"

"Mid tier price market" So if the iPhone was classified as High tier, it could ship earlier. Note that Broadcom's already noted that that the BCM21551 is "available now to early access customers".
The quote:

"on their introductory conference call they indicated that the chip they have now is the first tape-out and billed it as "Version 0 Rev A," and not yet completely verified. That indicates to us that general sampling is probably not before the second half of 2008. Broadcom said that the device would be shipping in cellphones "in 2009," but we assume that's the second half of 2009, since a typical handset design-in takes about 18 months."

comes from the mouth of EE - and not Broadcom. In the same article, another interesting lead - It might not just be a race between Samsung and Broadcom:

"Infineon [who it's noted had chips in the iPhone see diagram below] (IFX) is also developing a single-die UMTS/HxPA solution, and is currently shipping single-die GSM/GPRS chips to a number of customers, in volume. We have confirmed that IFX is now producing "conventional" UMTS baseband chips for at least two cellphone companies, one of which appears to be Samsung and the other may be for Apple's HSDPA iPhone. Since IFX is the supplier of the EDGE baseband and RF transceiver for apple's iPhone, the follow-on idea is not a stretch. Besides, IFX is currently the only volume merchant vendor of a UMTS RF transceiver (other than Qualcomm) and is having one of the most advanced RF roadmaps including WiMAX and LTE, driving 65 nm and beyond.

So, it also appears that Samsung may be breaking away from Qualcomm's WCDMA iron grip with UMTS basebands from both Broadcom and Infineon.

Last year, Comneon, a wholly-owned subsidiary of IFX, and InterDigital (IDCC) expanded cooperation to include IDCC's 3G (WCDMA, HSDPA & HSUPA) protocol stack with the IFX GSM/GPRS/EDGE baseband IPR. IFX, in turn, has also licensed the 3G stack to, of all companies, Broadcom."

Your thoughts?

In terms of styluses - the only problem with fingers is that they're not seethrough. Styluses are thin. Symbian S60 4th Edition will be doing finger and stylus. We may see Jobs espouse stylii (?) yet (iTablet, future Apple product lore tells it...)

convergedworld

Feb 20, 2008, 11:02 PM

"Mid tier price market" So if the iPhone was classified as High tier, it could ship earlier. Note that Broadcom's already noted that that the BCM21551 is "available now to early access customers".

I believe that my source for the 2009 date came out of a conference call that Broadcom held on the day that the chip was first announced. A 18-24 month lag between sampling and commercial handsets isnt particularly unusual....I believe that Qualcomm had a similar schedule for their MSM7500 chipset.

FWIW, I posted my thoughts on the possible source/timing for the 3G iPhone chipsets on my blog.

http://convergedworld.blogspot.com/2008/02/joining-hunt-for-3g-iphone.html

I see Infineon and Samsung repeating their design wins as the most likely scenario...which would probably mean a summer launch.

bubba316

Feb 20, 2008, 11:11 PM

3G iPhone isn't coming out until at least Q3 or Q4, most likely Q4. Apple will not obsolete a product that's only been out seven months so soon.

natejohnstone@g

Feb 20, 2008, 11:29 PM

3G iPhone isn't coming out until at least Q3 or Q4, most likely Q4. Apple will not obsolete a product that's only been out seven months so soon.

I disagree. By Q3 it will be a full year old. One year in the world of cell phones is a VERY long time. The Sony Walkman phone I have now was brand new in Dec. 06 for $350 pre-discount, and by June 07 (6 months later) I got a $100 gift card just for taking the phone for free! Since then, 2 Sony Walkman successors have come, and another will be out Q4 of this year.

The cell phone world is nothing like the consumer electronics world (although even that is beginning to change more rapidly than in the past). Things turn over very quickly. The current iPhone will be laughably outperformed by the competition by Q4 of this year (in many cases it already is, as we're already discusses here).

The iPhone has grabbed a lot of Apple fanboys and others looking for the "cool factor." But to move beyond that and hit 10M units (which they are WAY off pace right now based on the Macworld stats) they need to generate buyers from the smartphone market, the younger market, the business market, etc.

I for one would love to get an iPhone--I've literally wanted one for about 2 years now--but I need a phone that can work with carriers in Europe and Japan because I will be moving to one of those places next year and can't afford a bricked phone.

All the markets that :apple: needs to penetrate with iPhone will be gobbled up by all the other 3G phones and devices soon--and with 2-year contracts.

1) There is no way :apple: will sell 10M of the current iPhones by the end of the year

2) If :apple: waits until the Holiday season or even Q4 for iPhone 2 they will have missed out on too much of the market...like me.

3) If Jobs really is going to stick to his 10M promise, they'll HAVE to either come out with a new 3G iPhone (with other good additions too in order to generate sufficient buzz) or drop the prices on the current iPhones by $100 NOW and then by another $100 in Q3

--The deal-breaker in all this is that if they release ANOTHER type of iPhone in Q4 along with an update of the current one. A cheaper iPhone Nano or some other sub $200 version would be priced to move a lot of units.

bubba316

Feb 20, 2008, 11:47 PM

I think they can grab support from some of those people you mentioned through software updates. I got my iPhone last month after 1.1.3 came out. The my location feature addition got me into the store. Add MMS, stereo bluetooth, and other things through software and sales might accelerate.

I agree the cell phone market is rapidly changing, but the beauty of the iPhone is that it can keep up without a change in hardware.

wizard

Feb 21, 2008, 12:06 AM

I'm going to see if I can find anything that rivals it, and look into the current tear down chips in the iPhone, but as I said, the Broadcom SoC just kicks everyone elses ass right now. Unless Apple's in cahoots with a secret R&D SoC with Samsung etc, then Broadcom is it.

Some time ago Apple was rumored to be working with Intel on custom chips. Many think that was the chip that went into AIR but I'm not to sure. If Intel was to offer up true custom chips they would likely be grown around Silverthorne. Intel is very interested in going after ARM based devices and you have to be willing to do custom and SOC for that market. So I see potential for Apple to get away from ARM.

Otherwise your evaluation is correct the Broadcom chip is really just the nuts. In a way I do wish Apple would go that route but then on the other hand I see Apple as in a position to leverage a custom chip at this point. The goal there would be to put iPhone specific tech right into the SOC.

Unlike others here I do believe the 3G iPhone is nearer than many suspect. I'm not sure if it will be the iPhone 2 everyone is talking about or simply an upgrade of the current unit. Admittedly many would call a 3G on the current platform iPhone 2 anyways.

dave

I disagree. By Q3 it will be a full year old. One year in the world of cell phones is a VERY long time.
Very true, I think Apple is under a to of pressure in certain markets to get 3G out.

he current iPhone will be laughably outperformed by the competition by Q4 of this year (in many cases it already is, as we're already discusses here).

Apple's software takes performance out of the equation. As long as they can flesh out the OS and the apps they will keep interest high.

The iPhone has grabbed a lot of Apple fanboys and others looking for the "cool factor." But to move beyond that and hit 10M units (which they are WAY off pace right now based on the Macworld stats) they need to generate buyers from the smartphone market, the younger market, the business market, etc.

Funny but the only things that keeps me off iPhone is the AT&T contract and seeing how the OS evolves. There are certain software features that I need to see in an iPhone before I buy. I still hope that Apples long term vision for Mobile OS and my vision correspond.

All the markets that :apple: needs to penetrate with iPhone will be gobbled up by all the other 3G phones and devices soon--and with 2-year contracts.

You must believe that 3G is of more value than Apple software. I don't believe it to be so, Apple would do wonders sales wise if it got its software act together. That means flesh out the OS and respond to consumer demand. The hardware is otherwise fine.

1) There is no way :apple: will sell 10M of the current iPhones by the end of the year

Why not I actually thought they where more than on track. At least a third of the way there.

2) If :apple: waits until the Holiday season or even Q4 for iPhone 2 they will have missed out on too much of the market...like me.

You are not much of a market and for that matter neither am I. Apple can't deliver what it doesn't have component to build. They need the hardware and frankly it looks like the pickings are rather thin right now.

3) If Jobs really is going to stick to his 10M promise, they'll HAVE to either come out with a new 3G iPhone (with other good additions too in order to generate sufficient buzz) or drop the prices on the current iPhones by $100 NOW and then by another $100 in Q3

If iPhone sales where really hurting I think we would have seen a price drop by now. They haven't which means one of two things; either they are selling well or they are ready to release an update.

--The deal-breaker in all this is that if they release ANOTHER type of iPhone in Q4 along with an update of the current one. A cheaper iPhone Nano or some other sub $200 version would be priced to move a lot of units.

I was very much surprised to find that Apple released nothing "iPhone Nano" wise at MWSF. The most obvious thing in the world, to me anyways, is that Apple needs a PRODUCT LINEUP.

In any event I'm going out on a limb here to say that by the end of March we should see another iPhone model. Might not be 3G, but Apple need to add to the line up. Personally I think we will see a revival of the old Nano form factor for the low end iPhone, mainly because it is longer and can function as a phone held to the head.

Thanks
Dave

dangleheart

Feb 21, 2008, 01:18 AM

The iPhone has grabbed a lot of Apple fanboys and others looking for the "cool factor." But to move beyond that and hit 10M units (which they are WAY off pace right now based on the Macworld stats) they need to generate buyers from the smartphone market, the younger market, the business market, etc.

That is quite inaccurate. yeah, fanboys who can afford it bought it and others bought it for the cool factor. But there are not 2 to 3 million peole in those two categories.

You are right about the pace of turn over in the cell phone industry but the turn over is not that high in the high end smart phone line up. And Apple delivers new features to the iPhone without releasing a new Rev of the iPhone. Like, for example, with other carriers/manufactureres, if they want to support buying music off wi-fi it would be a new phone model. I am surprised that Apple Marketing is not emphasizing that point. I think it will be a differentiating factor if they just mouth off the 5 or 6 new things they have added in the past 5 months.

Having said all that, I would support a price reduction or a tie in with AT&T for a reduced price model for the high end plans. This is a good time to do this before this price war of the carriers get quite rough. It is all good for us consumers.

t0mat0

Feb 21, 2008, 05:51 AM

My main contention is that the delay to getting a 3G iPhone out is the 3G component Wizard. We're seeing equivalent price drops, plan upgrades - these are things being used to actually keep sales up at the moment. Think that 1/4 of all iPhones are unlocked. Extrapolating that level of consumer knowledge, there are even more that would know about 3G and it's benefits and might use that as a criteria to get a (nother) iPhone.

Reasons for Q2 08
Apple will want to get
- Jobs loves suprises.
- Last keynote was mute - it felt/rumored something was pulled last minute. Apple will want a conference platform to announce the 3G iPhone (e.g. WDC in June)
- FCC may take 2 months. If it's by summer, we'll have heard by March
- Extrapolating the RAM updates and price drops. There's a minimum for these models. Beyond that a new model would be expected.
- Balda got a ~7 million unit of touchscreens in Q4 07.
- What else have the hardware folks been working on? They don't do wiggly icon research...
- Random sporadic "I want my 3G iPhone now" posts. No reasoning, logic. Just a simple expectant demand.

Reasons for by Summer 08
- It's been a year.
- Jobs' 10 million target. Not going to do that with EDGE. (Peak times to release before: Back to school and Christmas. I'm sure students would go bezerko if a 3G dropped before term restarts after summer. (Hello loan cheque!))
- The iPhone will be rediculously underspecced in certain areas in 6 months time (e.g. see N96)
- They'll want users to upgrade their contract with a few months to spare, to keep retention high.
- Japan and Portugal launches both require 3G.
- Symbian S60 4th Edition will be out before 3G iPhone otherwise. Apple's lead to market is effectively lost (the gap is hidden in the inferior OS of competitors, but they've put out touch screen 3G phones by Q4 08)
- Early adopters have had enough time to think about ponying up for another iPhone
- If Apple can string together an iPhone in such a short space of time, the refinements, and hardware additions shouldn't be as much of a problem. They're got an easier learning curve now.
- They do 3G early, they can discount/bump for Christmas.

Reasons for 09
iPhone is mid-tier, and Broadcom has announced mid-tier handsets with BCM21551 will release Q1 09, sampling to release takes 18-24 months (Oct 07-> March 09??)

Main 3G chip provider contenders
1) Samsung S3C6410 3Q '08
2) Broadcom BCM21551 (Mid tier Q1 09 so Q2-4 '09 logically if iPhone seen as top tier)
3) Intel (Silverthorne = very quiet atm (did the prototype or Infineon (Infineon's UMTS/USDPA single die already shipped in numbers (Oct 07). Samsung's already got them, Apple's the other logical receiver.
4) Infineon - From Convergedworld's tip via his blog - their update to their baseband chip for the iPhone currently (S-GOLD3 HSDPA) processor will be in volume production 2Q 08.

The Broadcom chip is the nuts. However, Apple might 3G first, then a 3G SoC "with benefits" i.e. get the 3G out of the door, then have the capability to change up once the other chips come to market.

SDK will tell us some more, but the providers are kept unidentified (just the serial number, nonbranded) on current set of chips, so expect more of the same. Bonus If it's Infineon - We might see WiMax??

Best bets
1) FCC Announcement by April for June WDC release
2) FCC Announcement June at WDC. Release Late July.

3G has a lot more value when the marketplace has already had it. Think CD player (3G) as standard, versus non replaceable cassette player with audio in jack (EDGE with wifi).

As an aside - is there an even spread with people on contracts by month, or do some months have more people coming off them? e.g. from starting at christmas, so finishing June...

Playing devil's advocate, if you think that 3G is the only think holding the 3G iPhone back - have a look at this list of features that users have asked for (hardware is shown here, the list is primarily software)

Flash, 802.1n support, GPS, Haptic feedback, 5Mp cam, Voice dialing, Video recording, removable battery, xenon camera flash, A2DP, FM Radio.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=5007755&postcount=348

Side note: Does the US/UK providers have exclusivity to the 3G iPhone?

Knowledge that would help
- Example of the time FCC took to pass a 3G version of a previously EDGE phone version.
- Some information on Infineon
- Estimates or ideas as to what's happening with Silverthorne
(Wizard: Silverthorne chips I thought they were slated for 09, plus they were more medium sized MIDs. Has Intel done 3G before? Wouldn't have thought it's its area of expertise, unless it hooked up with either Infineon or Samsung. Intel does however have a good level of secrecy e.g. MacBook Air's CPU.
- Broadcom eta - is the time from sampling to market that long?
- Portugal and Japan rumoured release dates. A first step would be finding the networks, then any rumoured dates (O2's confirmation came a while before, through their customer support etc).

mark34

Feb 21, 2008, 08:54 AM

I for one have been waiting for next version of iPhone... just because timing was such that i did not get an iPhone right away, might as well wait at this point. I have the iPod Touch and cant wait for the phone.

My only data point on this battery life issue is my Samsung Blackjack. 3G is fast and I have 3G coverage most of the time... seamlessly kicks over to Edge if necessary. Pretty cool phone, but OMG the battery life is abysmal. Most days I do not make it through the day without switching to the second battery. If Apple is seeing the same in the iPhone then I applaud them for waiting. I usually ignore battery specs because I assume I will have at least well over 1 day and know I will charge every night. But man, with the Blackjack, it is frustrating to die by evening.

natejohnstone@g

Feb 21, 2008, 11:43 AM

I do think that 3G is more important than :apple: software for many people. If looking at 3G phones--i.e. all things being equal--then I think that :apple:'s software, form factor, and coolness will entice a lot of people.

As far as being on track for the 10M mark, here is the situation:

As of the end of December, Apple had sold just over 3.7M iPhones. That's great and all, but in order to hit the 10M mark they will have to do BETTER than they have done each quarter, plus have a BETTER holiday season than last year. In June the iPhone will be a year old. When--pray tell--have you seen 1-year-old cell phones sell BETTER than they did the first year? Again, all the early adopters are in, and I'd wager many who had been waiting on price are in as well.

Even if they sold 1.3M this quarter (which would be BETTER than the quarter of the price drop) they'd still need to move 5M units of a 1-year-old handset in 3 Quarters. And remember--all of those units go to AT&T customers or converts (unless the 10M includes Canada and Europe--but it hasn't sold too well there anyway). That's a large number of fish to snag in a small pond UNLESS SOMETHING CHANGES.

Look, I like the iPhone and will get one as soon as one exists that meets my needs (works with carriers in Europe and Japan). And I think that selling 10M would be great. But I simply don't see :apple: moving that many units of an old device, even with storage and software improvements.

They need a price drop and/or a new product. I agree that coming out with a non-3G Nano at a $199 price point would be a great idea. I'd suggest putting out a 3G iPhone first, however. Grab that market asap, then go for those who don't need 3G or as heavy-duty hardware but want an iPod phone at a cheap price. Basically--a full iPhone product linup.

sjo

Feb 21, 2008, 01:07 PM

Like, for example, with other carriers/manufactureres, if they want to support buying music off wi-fi it would be a new phone model. I am surprised that Apple Marketing is not emphasizing that point. I think it will be a differentiating factor if they just mouth off the 5 or 6 new things they have added in the past 5 months.

maybe because it's not true? you might familiarize yourself eg with nokia's ovi music etc store.

Having said all that, I would support a price reduction or a tie in with AT&T for a reduced price model for the high end plans. This is a good time to do this before this price war of the carriers get quite rough. It is all good for us consumers.

price reduction is not that straight forward for apple, it'd cannibalize ipod sales.

I was very much surprised to find that Apple released nothing "iPhone Nano" wise at MWSF.

1. it would cannibalize ipod sales.

2. the main sale arguments of iphone are the user interface, itunes integration and, for some, safari. for ipnano, these would reduce into itunes integration, resulting in a) cannibalized ipod sales b) unfavorable comparison to offerings of other manufacturers that have way superior models in other regards.

1) There is no way will sell 10M of the current iPhones by the end of the year

it's actually 10m during 2008.

natejohnstone@g

Feb 21, 2008, 01:16 PM

it's actually 10m during 2008.

LOL, then there is absolutely no way! 3.7M in '07, and they think they'll sell 10M in 'O8? Twice as much sales time in that window, but with an old model...no way at all unless something changes as I said.

wizard

Feb 21, 2008, 02:18 PM

I do think that 3G is more important than :apple: software for many people. If looking at 3G phones--i.e. all things being equal--then I think that :apple:'s software, form factor, and coolness will entice a lot of people.

I would have to say that the people who covet 3G over Apple's software is a very small minority. Sure there are any number of people who realize that for their specific usages it is mandatory, but I believe for a large number of people they have no idea or are happy with WiFI.

As far as being on track for the 10M mark, here is the situation:

As of the end of December, Apple had sold just over 3.7M iPhones. That's great and all, but in order to hit the 10M mark they will have to do BETTER than they have done each quarter, plus have a BETTER holiday season than last year.

Well the factors at work right now, that have an impact on Apples sales, are not going to be impacted by 3G. If the economy is in the dumpster then sales of luxuries will be down. People at the higher end of he economic ladder will not be impacted but then again buying a phone for them doesn't involve financial risk or strain.

In June the iPhone will be a year old. When--pray tell--have you seen 1-year-old cell phones sell BETTER than they did the first year? Again, all the early adopters are in, and I'd wager many who had been waiting on price are in as well.

I believe the smart phone market is different enough that people don't see them as disposable. In any event with each new software release Apple's phones have gotten newer. Apple may not be good at getting this word out but it is a fact and many consumers do recognize the new features.

Even if they sold 1.3M this quarter (which would be BETTER than the quarter of the price drop) they'd still need to move 5M units of a 1-year-old handset in 3 Quarters.

I don't see hwy they couldn't do even better than 1.3M this quarter.

And remember--all of those units go to AT&T customers or converts (unless the 10M includes Canada and Europe--but it hasn't sold too well there anyway). That's a large number of fish to snag in a small pond UNLESS SOMETHING CHANGES.

While Apples single carrier deal is probably one of the most stupid things they have done in years it isn't effectively impacting sales. In a world where all carriers could reasonably be considered bad actors, going with one that has the phone you want isn't any more of a problem than staying with the current carrier.

Look, I like the iPhone and will get one as soon as one exists that meets my needs (works with carriers in Europe and Japan). And I think that selling 10M would be great. But I simply don't see :apple: moving that many units of an old device, even with storage and software improvements.

Funny but the reason I don't have a iPhone, or Touch for that matter, is very much an issue of software. 3G just isn't going to mean a lot to me. Sure it is a bit faster than EDGE but frankly isn't going to edge out WiFI anytime soon for large file transfers. Considering that some software doesn't work over EDGE and likely won't work over 3G I don't see a big draw for me. Like wise I don't think the whole community is going to fall for the idea that 3G is the best thing since sliced bread.

They need a price drop and/or a new product. I agree that coming out with a non-3G Nano at a $199 price point would be a great idea. I'd suggest putting out a 3G iPhone first, however. Grab that market asap, then go for those who don't need 3G or as heavy-duty hardware but want an iPod phone at a cheap price. Basically--a full iPhone product linup.

The price drop is key. The combination of the high price of the iPhone and the corresponding AT&T contact are a big disincentive. To be perfectly honest though I would have preferred that Apple kept the priced and unlocked the phone. That is sell it as a device that can be used anywhere. In a nut shell the iphone isn't that bad of a deal if you are free to go with the network of your choice, otherwise it needs to become a lot cheaper.

Apple needs to release hardware as soon as it is technically possible with in the engineering goals for the device. Due to that I don't want them to release a 3G phone with a 2 hour battery time. Same thing with the Nano phone, do it when all the technology comes together but not sooner. That is like stating the obvious but there are examples of rushed products that are hardly usable due to battery constraints or other issues.

In any event we are very much on agreement with respect to the need for a full product line up. As stated before I'm surprised that Apple did not flesh out the phone line up at MWSF, nor any of the recent trade shows. It actually casts a bad light upon Apple as a corporation that is able to play successfully in this market.

Dave

wizard

Feb 21, 2008, 02:40 PM

price reduction is not that straight forward for apple, it'd cannibalize ipod sales.

YOu loose ten points right off the bat for using that word.

1. it would cannibalize ipod sales.

Apple has absolutely no choice in the matter. If they don't do it somebody else will and then they end up with no sales. Markets change and companies have to learn to respond. One issue there is that people don't want to carry around a huge bag of various electronic devices. The company that can get a very low cost cell phone and MP3 player out onto the market will have an advantage. In Apple's case it is actually a bigger advantage for them as it ties into the popularity of iTMS.

Since we already have companies building such devices I honestly believe Apple is effectively behind the eight ball so to speak. Apple needs to respond or have a lot of customers end leaving iTunes.

2. the main sale arguments of iphone are the user interface, itunes integration and, for some, safari. for ipnano, these would reduce into itunes integration, resulting in a) cannibalized ipod sales b) unfavorable comparison to offerings of other manufacturers that have way superior models in other regards.

What are you trying to say that Apple can't make a superior product?

Look I fully understand that integration reduces to iTunes. In a sense though that is the whole point an iPod with a Cell Phone. It is not a device to take away sales from other Apple products but rather a device to protect Apple from a reduction in sales due to offerings from other manufactures. All Apple really needs is a device with the equivalent storage of a NANO with cell connectivity. That is it, we are not talking a power house of communications here. At best you would be adding $25 to $35 dollars to the user cost of the device. That I believe people would pay for.

it's actually 10m during 2008.

Funny I thought it was by the end of 2008. Doesn't really matter as i looks like things just are not swinging Apples way.

In any event look for them to become really aggressive with respect to sales in the next month or two. Frankly they have to succeed here as the whole iPod business is at risk if they can't get the hardware out that consumers want. With the advent of DRM free download sights and better cell phones/MP3 players from other actors, Apple needs viable products. Products it doesn't currently have.

I look at it this way the iPhone is a nice product for what it is but it however isn't the product that a lot of people are interested in for carry as a cell phone / MP3 player. Deal with that and Apple might stay in the business.

Dave

t0mat0

Feb 21, 2008, 03:10 PM

1. it would cannibalize ipod sales.

it's actually 10m during 2008.

I've heard analysts say this. It's a bit of a cop out though. Oh noes! We can't bring out any new products similar to our other ranges? Why? Because people would buy them instead of the other ranges...
"And another thing" - An iPhone IS A iPod. Jobs is on record as saying it's Apple's BEST iPod to date. If someone doesn't buy a iPod classic, but buys a iPhone, Apple rubs its hands in glee: There's a healthy profit margin from the phone (which may well be more than other iPod ranges) and then there's profit from the carrier if the person gets a year or so's contract.

The best thing they can do is add value here. Why is Garmin doing the Nuvi? Because you can bet your ass it's market is going to be encroached upon by the mobile market. heck, it's outrageous that it hasn't already been opened up through the iPhone. (e.g. have a iPhone dock in the car, pop it horizontal, and that software upgrade to voice dialling suddenly becomes voice activated zip/post code from to instructions, and google/other pops a nice map interface on). If Apple don't do it due to not wanting to step on shoes, someone else sure will (Why hasn't Apple added slingbox like features? Probably due to keeping relations with the movie companies to an extent).

Why hasn't iPhone/ phones in general encroached more on
- the portable movie player market? Screen size for one.
- the GPS Sat Nav In car Navigator? GPS receiver size battery life and software integration
- Wireless music sharing, sports GPS products....

The "in, during, up to 2008 etc" debate is a bit of a murky one. I'd go with the easier figure being reached, because Jobs can always claim he meant the larger figure if it's reached.

natejohnstone@g

Feb 21, 2008, 03:24 PM

Okay, I'll buy the idea that there are not actually 5 million people waiting just for iPhone to get 3G. But the 3G issue is bigger than the tech itself.

iPhone was billed as "the best phone ever." Whether or not that's fair, that's what people think it should be. Now to some, it already is that. So be it. But as soon as the iPhone was announced, you heard people screaming about "No 3G? Piece of crap with a nice screen." Is that fair? Of course not. Do most people really care or even know if they need it? I doubt it. My current area doesn't even have 3G!

But when people are looking at a premium priced item, they want it to be the best. If they are expected to suffer through 2 years of AT&T plus shell out a ton of cash for this thing, then the IDEA that the hardware isn't even as good as the competition is a roadblock for people.

When buying a newly updated MBP, people know that they are getting pretty much the top of the line hardware plus the Apple OS, etc. They are willing to pay more because of that. But the idea is out there with the iPhone that it's a fancy iPod that you can make calls on. The iPhone is MUCH more than that, but for those on the fence the idea of the current model not being "future-proof" scares them off. I"m not saying this is logical (obviously there is no such thing as future-proof), but this is the case with many that I've talked to and much of what I've read on forums. They want to be able to justify their expense and 2-year contract by saying that this is the most advanced phone on the market.

And don't say that this doesn't matter because the iPhone is geared towards the "wealthy" market, because those are the professionals who may actually need 3G to begin with, or need other PDA-type software items that iPhone does not currently offer (a Word document reader/writer, for example).

But I agree with everyone that :apple: needs to do a much better job of publicizing it's software updates/programs.

dangleheart

Feb 21, 2008, 03:26 PM

Companies spend tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars for this kind of strategy sessions.. Apple is getting this all for free..:p

sjo

Feb 21, 2008, 03:46 PM

YOu loose ten points right off the bat for using that word.

huh? that's what the phenomenon is called...

Apple has absolutely no choice in the matter. If they don't do it somebody else will and then they end up with no sales. Markets change and companies have to learn to respond. One issue there is that people don't want to carry around a huge bag of various electronic devices. The company that can get a very low cost cell phone and MP3 player out onto the market will have an advantage. In Apple's case it is actually a bigger advantage for them as it ties into the popularity of iTMS.

you (and the guy replying after you) read more into what i wrote than what i meant. apple absolutely needs to replace most of the ipod line with phone enabled version. no disagreement there. the question is in timing.

ipod sales have more or less reached their peak, apple will milk those sales as long as they can, and only introduce phone enabled models when they need to.

what's the time span for the replacement? mwsf was way too early to introduce an ipnano. i'd take a cue from the lenght of their att exclusive deal and say that they're planning to replace the ipod line with phone enabled devices during about 4 years, model at a time.

What are you trying to say that Apple can't make a superior product?

actually i'm not saying that. i'm saying that if you take the large screen and safari out of iphone, there's really not that many reasons for consumers to buy the device...

thus they need to find something new, i'm sure they will, but apple's development resources are pretty stretched as it is, and it takes time to expand those, so again i think ipnano this year is way too early. in next couple of years, sure.

Funny I thought it was by the end of 2008. Doesn't really matter as i looks like things just are not swinging Apples way.

steve wasn't very clear during the introduction. apple's cfo peter oppenheimer clarified the issue during the earnings conference call of f3q07 (you can google to find the transcript). he stated that apple's target is to reach about 1% market share of global cell phone unit sales during 2008, a year ago about 1b cell phones a year were sold, thus 10m. on the other hand going by the 1% would require 13-14m iphones to be sold in 2008.

natejohnstone@g

Feb 21, 2008, 06:55 PM

Companies spend tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars for this kind of strategy sessions.. Apple is getting this all for free..:p

Seriously! As compensation we should all get...free iPhone2s :)

t0mat0

Feb 21, 2008, 08:13 PM

I'll fill this post in later, but some things to add

- GPS modules by gomite, Global Locate and a Broadcomm connection, A-GPS
- Interdigital's deal - details (was the At and t only 1st phone exclusive?)
- Infineon's chipset
- Partfoundry - have they got the SDK bug like gomite?
- 3G Touchscreen RIM Crackberries?
AT&T's 3G expansion rate and coverage
- Innolux - shipping touch screens fo 2Q for summer release? (As opposed to Wintek,

wizard

Feb 21, 2008, 10:06 PM

huh? that's what the phenomenon is called...

Nope. Not in this case where Apple had to introduce product to protect its share of MP3 players. Apple introduced the iPhone not because they wanted to be in the cell phone business but because they didn't want to loose their iPod business to more capable cell phones.

Frankly it is the same thing for Garmin and their announced cell Phone. I don't think Garmin would really want to be producing cell phones if it could be avoided. The problem is they can't ignore the continued advancements in the cell phone and GPS industries. Garmin either had to enter the market or loose a significnat amount of business to the cell phone manufactures.

Garmin and Apple are in the cell phone business for the same reasons. Different product yes but ignoring the technology would leave both companies shells of their former selves otherwise. So in Apples case they need iPhone, IPhone Nano, and IPhone 2 to maintain a competitive position and avoid loss sales to other manufactures.

When it comes right down to it, I can make a good argument that Apple is already loosing sales due to lack of a divers product line up. So frankly they need to get cracking.

you (and the guy replying after you) read more into what i wrote than what i meant. apple absolutely needs to replace most of the ipod line with phone enabled version. no disagreement there. the question is in timing.

As you may have gathered from my reply above I believe they are already running late. They have started to respond some with the shuffle price cuts which I believe are making way for adjustments in the rest of the line up. Except for the memory bump this is not new hardware so they still are behind the eight ball.

ipod sales have more or less reached their peak, apple will milk those sales as long as they can, and only introduce phone enabled models when they need to.

One would have to be pretty blind not to see that they need to respond to the competition right now.

what's the time span for the replacement? mwsf was way too early to introduce an ipnano. i'd take a cue from the lenght of their att exclusive deal and say that they're planning to replace the ipod line with phone enabled devices during about 4 years, model at a time.

No not at all Apple needs to release viable cell enabled products at least every four months until the product line is fleshed out and they have reasonably competitive models for every price segment. Apple should have 3 distinct models of cell phones available by now.

The fact that they don't should worry any stock holder of the company.

actually i'm not saying that. i'm saying that if you take the large screen and safari out of iphone, there's really not that many reasons for consumers to buy the device...

For some iTunes would be fine. In any event isn't the wide screen and Safari the whole point of Apples smart phone? Such apps show case the units power and technology.

Which is all well and good but that doesn't mean that Apple can do without 'dumber" phones. The need these simply to protect the whole iPod business.

thus they need to find something new, i'm sure they will, but apple's development resources are pretty stretched as it is, and it takes time to expand those, so again i think ipnano this year is way too early. in next couple of years, sure.

This just blows my mind this idea that Apple is stretched thin. We are talking about a company with huge cash reserves and a reputation that attracts the best. If they wanted to be successful or expand the business they could do so easily.

.

Yeah but those are projections from another year and another economy. Things have changed rapidly. The cell phone industry will be lucky to get out of 2008 without any contraction of the market.

Dave

natejohnstone@g

Feb 21, 2008, 10:37 PM

So, basically ditto to the wizard, lol.

The electronics market is changing faster than it has in years past, and the cell phone market has always had a much faster "refresh rate" yet.

We all expect Apple to release a new line this fall with potentially modified prices, because that's what they always do. But guess what--the competition knows that too and plans accordingly. Apple started to lose HUGE marketshare / potential marketshare to MP3 cell phones. That's why the iPhone was born.

No longer can people say ":apple: will release another version of the iPod next year because that's what they always do." If :apple: cannot adapt, they don't deserve to continue reaping the huge profits that they did last year. If for one think they are smarter than that. They realize that things are changing, and that they need to adapt.

I also think that the "unusual" Shuffle repricing is the beginning of a complete iPod line price adjustment. I don't personally remember seeing this before accept right before the Zune was released.

The iPhone is a hit, obviously, but it has not yet done what :apple: needs it to do, and by that I mean the iPhone product line, not the current iteration. For :apple: to continue dominating the world of digital music, they need to carve out a huge niche in the MP3 cell phone market. They have a tiny share now.

iPod + cell phone = AWESOME

Let's face it, most MP3 phones were trying to beat :apple: to the punch. They capitalized on the major market demand for MP3 players and added them to devices that people already needed and used all the time. It's a perfect match (you've always got your phone with you!) and people have responded to MP3 phones in a big way.

The current iPhone is TOO MUCH for most for most people, or rather, more than they need. :apple: needs to release an iPhone version that is simply iPod + cell phone. If they can release these 4GB and 8GB iPhone Nanos at a low enough price, they will make a freaking killing. I have always thought that such a device would far and away outsell the uber-phone concept.

I totally disagree that these phones would "canabalize" iPod sales. Worst case scenario, someone buys one of these instead of an iPod--:apple: has lost nothing. I don't know if research has been done on this, but I'll bet you that most people who have MP3 phones still have a dedicated MP3 player anyway, so I don't think :apple: will really loose anything, they'll simply grab a new market.

But the idea that this new phone you're considering COULD replace your iPod would be a compelling factor to most people. That's why the idea of the iPhone was so exciting. It's not that iPhone failed to deliver, it's that it delivered (and subsequently cost) far more than many knew what to do with.

I'm not saying that :apple: ditch the uber-phone concept--far from it. But they need to augment the line with a cheap and simply iPod + cell phone device. The sooner the better.

t0mat0

Feb 22, 2008, 11:31 AM

Why 3G matters to some
- Those who use it know it's advantages. Think using something ubiquitous, using broadband, and going back to 56k modem; having a mobile, then having to use only landlines. If you're naive to the next gen tech, you don't mind. The Fon movement, WiMax movement might sort 3G non-availability in the medium term.

Known unknowns
The contract exclusivity - Is it only to the current iPhone and 3G iPhone isn't covered?

Convergence and where everyone's going
SatNav e.g. Garmin - Ahead on Mapping (Sea, Air, Land)
Computer e.g. Apple - Ahead on OS, mp3, styling
Graphics e.g. NVidia - Ahead on graphics
Cellphone e.g. Nokia - Ahead on # of functions in 1 phone, "3G&GPSness"

Those in the cellphone market are busting out, those out are busting in, converging into a smorgasboard of Swiss Army knife smart phones.

Apple's OS on the iPhone. A rushed port, of a behind schedule OS. And it's 9-12 months ahead (bear in mind US mobile tech is a 12 months behind Europe (which is behind Korea/Japan etc).
Competitors will cut corners to get a competeting device out (N96, touchscreen S60 4th Edn, Experia, Nuvi).

Future
NVidia: depth perception/similar control of a dveice that does 720p HDTV direct from a handset! NVIDIA spokesman Oscar Clark "What this shows is the iPhone didn't go far enough. Nokia's UK MD: Nokia is becoming: ""a Web 2.0 company, and no longer just a device company" Vids at mobilementalism.com).
Apple: The iTablet/MacBook Air v2 comes out with an inbuilt projector. We all go paroxycismic.

Apple iPhone lineup
Non 3G phone, nano v1 iPhone, 3G iPhone aka iPhonetastic

Apple is Apple. The lineup will not cater for all, but cater to the high end. (Case in point - midsized mac tower anyone?) and slightly slow/late in updating. They make money from not updating too soon.

Different uses have different optimal form factors, put simply. The nano iPod could be longer and sport GPS. There will still be a demand for non-phone mp3 players - e.g. nano iPod shape is non-phone compatible and is one of the most useful shapes for sports. And now it's square, it could also work with a GPS map loaded bolt on :D (Nike+Extreme; MotionBased/other rival? I dream)

The market in the US UK might be getting saturated by current generations of phone, but don't forget there are other markets - China etc that is crying out for iPhones (400,000 and counting unlocked ones). But, Apple can't do too much all over. Apple's resources could be outstretched btw - if you look at the size of the company and it's employee number, they're doing more for less people. Apple might not want too many things that forces them to expand that much. If you don't think overstretching is possible, why was the OS Leopard release late? Engineers moved to help out on the iPhone.

Apple can sell the new 3G iPhone not so much as a iPod replacement, but as the PC/internet in your pocket. By having all the options, people can find a compelling factor within the iPhone (it's got a few! :)

Going back to the original thread -
Info on timings of the 3G iPhone (and its features):

Windows & Apple, Nokia, Nintendo are all going to possibly hit multiple user interface capability in their next big OS releases.

GPS
Nokia: Sept 06 the Nokia N95 came out with GPS, then got a A-GPS bump in Oct 07 (and ate up Navteq mapping company and gate5's Smart2go research). It's catch? You get worldwide street level info that you can pull from the cellnet/net, and or keep on your expansion card, but you pay for navigation. Expect A-GPS in more thinner models from Nokia.
RIM: 3G Touchscreen RIM GPS enabled Crackberry 9000
Google/Android:Google's android platform designed to tightly work with a GPS receiver. Unreleased.
Sony: Sony Ericsson XPERIA X1
Apple:
- Gomite will be doing click in GPS modules as soon as the SDK comes out.
- Broadcom ate up Global Locate, so Broadcom has a chip to do A-GPS. Global locate worked with Infineon in 2007 to make the smallest GPS receiver... And Apple was apparently in talks with Global Locate. So it looks like Assisted GPS (Single chip A-GPS Solution BCM4750)
- Partfoundry - have they got the SDK bug like gomite? They were another GPS first player
So GPS add ons are being held back till SDK release (in gomite's words: "we won't know for sure what we can and can't do until Apple releases their Software Developers Kit (SDK) in February.")

Intel, Silverthorne, Apple

Silverthorne is part of Intel’s “Menlow” Mobile Internet Device MID platform. It is aimed more for the intersection of cellphone and laptop (ultraportables/ ultraslims/tablets/things with miniprojectors/Flashbook/touchNewton...). Rumors are of "multiple products" with it in 2008. Consuming currently 0.5-2W of power, versus iPhone's ~0.280 Watts. However if you look at the prototype, its iPhone thin, just double length (For reference, a Core2Duo notebook processor draw 35W).

So Moorestown possibly in 2009 for the iPhone. Big fat no for Silverthorne for the iPhone in 2008. Interestingly, Intel shows intention to move into the Wifi, 3G, WiMax areas - in Sept 07 they announced plans to offer UMPC builders the option to build this into their Menlow-based chip packages, such as Silverthorne.

Moorestown? CPU, graphics, video and memory controller all on a single piece of silicon, on a chip that will increase battery life an order of magnitude by reducing idle power by 10x compared to Menlow," (Chandrasekher). Samsung has a year to keep busy!

2Q 08 timing: http://www.electronista/ EDN rumors -
Innolux begin shipping touchscreens to Apple in 2Q for a summer launch.
- iPhone and iTouch drop in production.
- Interdigital's deal - details (was the At and t only 1st phone exclusive?)
- Infineon's chipset
- AT&T's 3G expansion rate and coverage
- Innolux - shipping touch screens for 2Q so that's a summer release? (As opposed to Wintek)
- The Spanish launch about a Q2 launch is all based on one source - Sevenclick who claims to have spoken to someone in Telefonica (Spanish carrier).
- If the iPhone can't currently support streaming radio then that's indicative of a 3G feature, though from the front page today, it was a website, that is usable by current iPhones.
- If i've got this right (i may need to check) InterDigital, has penned a 7 year licensing deal with Apple. This may well cover 3G technologies. iPhone uses SGOLD2-8876, which can only do EDGE, though it's platform MP-EU supports UMTS (3G WCDMA FDD).
Total cost of MP-EU & the 2 IFX chips in iPhone? $16.

http://wirelessanalyst.blogspot.com/2007/09/iphone-v1-and-infineon.html

natejohnstone@g

Feb 22, 2008, 12:20 PM

I love that outlook. With the new tech update, iPhone really will be the BEST CELL PHONE ON THE MARKET. Equal in terms of tech, far superior in terms of OS and software, as well as ease of use and form factor.

But the more I think about it, the main "killer" of the iPhone is really AT&T. Their phone network is really sub-par (#3 or #4 overall), though their customer's service is pretty good actually (much better in my experience than Sprint of T-Mobile). But for many the idea of switching from, say, Verizon to AT&T just to get an iPhone is prohibitive. No matter how much the tech might meet their needs an how much they might want one for all the other reasons.

Is there a chance of :apple: ending it's deal with AT&T sometime soon? Does anyone know how long of a "pact" they signed?

OR:
It would be sweet if an iPhone Nano (iPhone Lite?) i.e. iPod + Cell Phone device came out that DID NOT require a 2-year contract with AT&T. Maybe it's still AT&T only, but you can buy it without the "iPhone Plan" because it's just an iPod plus a phone and not an internet uber-device. I'm thinking 8GB in a form factor just like the current iPhone but 40% smaller or so. Put it out for $199 and NO contract or maybe only a 1-year contract.

This would be smart for both AT&T and :apple:, because it would entice those who are reticent to switch carriers. Once they experience the awesomeness of iPhone Lite, the next time around they may well upgrade to the full iPhone and not quibble about the 2-year contract.

Am I dreaming? :apple: and AT&T have already broken a lot of rules about the carrier-manufacturer relationship, why not keep going?

kster

Feb 22, 2008, 01:01 PM

t0mat0

Feb 22, 2008, 02:15 PM

the iPhone is exclusive to AT&T for 5 years.
2012

Which doesn't stop jailbreaking one bit. Unless Apple and AT&T either are draconian in stopping unlocking or AT&T offers something very competitive, there is a reason to say there will be a *lot* more hacked 3G iPhones. As for percentage unlocked? Speculation either way.
But being 3G opens up a lot more options for using it on a network provider not intended (e.g. in UK Vodaphone, 3G, Orange vs O2).

natejohnstone@g

Feb 22, 2008, 02:29 PM

Which doesn't stop jailbreaking one bit. Unless Apple and AT&T either are draconian in stopping unlocking or AT&T offers something very competitive, there is a reason to say there will be a *lot* more hacked 3G iPhones. As for percentage unlocked? Speculation either way.
But being 3G opens up a lot more options for using it on a network provider not intended (e.g. in UK Vodaphone, 3G, Orange vs O2).

So I've heard a lot of stuff about hacked iPhones not working or not being full-featured. Neither I nor yourself is endorsing this of course, but I am wondering what does and does not work on an iPhone that has been unlocked by whatever program.

t0mat0

Feb 22, 2008, 02:36 PM

So I've heard a lot of stuff about hacked iPhones not working or not being full-featured. Neither I nor yourself is endorsing this of course, but I am wondering what does and does not work on an iPhone that has been unlocked by whatever program.

I wouldn't go so far as to not endorse it ;)

You break visual voicemail, and warranty for starters, and gain a lot more.
v2 3G may well see a big shift as you're dealing with an SDK to officially get apps out - Apple has probably been reading up on Microsoft's folly in security and how it made itself more secure, and learnt that like Nokia, it might have to go down the authorised app route. Whether (or if you're a hacker when) a viable route to unlock comes through for the 3G iPhone is another matter. Porbably play it by ear. I'd imagine that everyone will wait till it settles, and the all clear is given before people start unlocking, or relocking etc.

The SDk will be for the current iPhone and the 3G iPhone, so you'd expect the behaviour to be similar over both in this respect.

I'd say there would be
less of an incentive for people to be unlocked, as apps can go through the SDK
more incentive to unlock if there are more apps coming out, and you can access them without being locked (as it allows you to be non AT&T, O2 etc)

kster

Feb 22, 2008, 04:27 PM

pacohaas

Feb 22, 2008, 04:33 PM

natejohnstone@g

Feb 22, 2008, 07:50 PM

i heavily considered hacking the iphone too - to remain on tmobile.
however - i chose to go to AT&T and do it the ''right'' way because:

-when :apple: release new firmware, i dont want to wait for a 3rd party group to hack it a few weeks later. when the update is out, i want it.

search this board, numerous individuals are reporting various issuses with hacked phones. when ur ****ing around with it, dont be surprised. risk of bricking, no thanks.

-paying the same price of an iphone, with no visual voicemail. i dont care how many ppl say ''you dont need it''. if im paying full price, i expect all the features advertised. period.

-far too complicated to hack the iphone. search it on youtube. now i'm capable of following directions - but its WAY too much hassle than its worth to do a new set of complicated instructions when new firmware is released

I had these same hesitations. So here's my plan at this point:

Buy a 3G iPhone whenever it comes out. Summer of 2009 I will be shipped abroad, but I just learned from AT&T that they have a "Military Suspension Plan" which essentially puts your contract on hold until you return from overseas. So that's cool and solves my AT&T dilemma--no need to "hack" the iPhone before i leave.

My hope is that I"ll be stationed in a country that has an official iPhone carrier. If so, I'm hoping that I can simply get a contract with them and use my iPhone as I did in the US. Is this possible? Do you think US released iPhones will be compatible with European or Japanese carriers/networks (assuming the next version will be 3G)?

If that doesn't work, then I'd have to hack it when I'm abroad to use it, which I"m guessing would be even harder to pull of/figure out than if I were in the US. That's the big risk, then.

My fall-back is simply to buy a PSP instead and just use Skype while I'm overseas.

t0mat0

Feb 25, 2008, 06:48 AM

Just as a thought, would it be technically possible to make a bolt on that had a 3G chip in, with A-GPS in as well? So you could upgrade your iPhone to 3G if wanted?

natejohnstone@g

Feb 25, 2008, 10:52 AM

Just as a thought, would it be technically possible to make a bolt on that had a 3G chip in, with A-GPS in as well? So you could upgrade your iPhone to 3G if wanted?

It's certianly not possible for ME to do that, lol. Honestly I doubt anyone could pull that off and keep it fully functional while not looking like you taped a random thing to the back of your phone. But I could be wrong.

Now if iPhone had an SD slot...so much would be possible...

t0mat0

Feb 26, 2008, 01:40 PM

Possibilities for a haptic screen display?

Today's news is of a concept from Glasgow. The leader, and the one with the patents is Immersion (immersion.com) who liscences out to companies like Samsung, who's already using touch-screen haptic tech

Competing theories
- Balda got an order for 6-8 million touch-screens from an unnamed "leading mobile manufacturer," starting in April 2008. (They've also got financial, issues, and may have been dropped).
- Innolux struck a deal with Apple to ship t touchscreens in 2Q 2008? (EDN source)

t0mat0

Feb 28, 2008, 08:39 AM

Another day, another line of rumors:
9to5mac quotes Macworld, which quotes Fox business, which quotes UBS.

And UBS say:
German chipmaker Infineon Technologies AG will likely be supplying the new systems solution to Apple Inc.'s next-generation iPhone

No ****.
"The broker said this is not yet the consensus view and could be a positive catalyst for the stock."
"It also believes that 3G-enabled iPhones will be released by mid-year and that the current EDGE iPhone platform is being ramped down earlier than expected to "clean" inventories."
3 cheers for the "analysts that get paid for this stuff.

The detail? Motorola has already paid Infineon to make it a custom 3G transceiver chip based on its existing Smarti UE device. Said to be shipping 4Q 2008 to selected customers.
http://www.dspdesignline.com/news/202101487 Infineon tunes its 3G transceiver for Motorola

Other 3G chip players? Broadcom, TI, Samsung, Qualcomm, EMP, Freescale, Infineon, Philips, Agere...

skittlez

Feb 28, 2008, 07:47 PM

So no one's postively sure? =[

t0mat0

Feb 28, 2008, 07:52 PM

So no one's postively sure? =[

Well, put it this way: Macrumors on Page 1 put a quote of a quote of a quote of an analyst saying there isn't a consensus on it, but he thinks Infineon might have a chip in the next one.

Infineon had a chip in the last one, and are main forerunners in the lineup.

In a word - no. If we did, it'd be big news.

Mister9

Mar 3, 2008, 10:40 AM

Wimax

Justinerator

Mar 3, 2008, 04:48 PM

Wimax

apple wouldn't make a jump like that.... To the OP, the new silverthorne processors (now called ATOM processors) have been anounced to specifically run on mobile devices (laptops, phones, etc.). Wouldn't there be a better chance of intel and apple announcing an ATOM processor in the iphone?

Here's the link in case you were wondering where I got that... (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/03/02/intels-silverthorne-ultra-mobile-proecessor-now-called-atom/)

t0mat0

Mar 3, 2008, 08:02 PM

apple wouldn't make a jump like that.... To the OP, the new silverthorne processors (now called ATOM processors) have been anounced to specifically run on mobile devices (laptops, phones, etc.). Wouldn't there be a better chance of intel and apple announcing an ATOM processor in the iphone?

Here's the link in case you were wondering where I got that... (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/03/02/intels-silverthorne-ultra-mobile-proecessor-now-called-atom/)

No, not yet - the link you have above gets it all wrong in my opinion.
Silverthorne aka Atom now still runs about 0.5W which is more than twice what the current chip runs on. Basically Apple said yes they'll have Atom chips in kit shipping in 2008 (Think late 08 Apple Air/iTablet/new kit).
Eventually, yes Intel may have a contender chip, but at the moment, a chip that would be useable in an iPhone would be earliest mid 09 at a rough guess. By that time, who knows where Infineon, Samsung, general ARM chips will be. Broadcomm too.

We'll see. Intel might suprise us, but the current timeframes it's given suggest 2009 earliest for a Atom Inside iPhone.

Justinerator

Mar 3, 2008, 08:57 PM

so infineon it is!

right?...

t0mat0

Mar 4, 2008, 06:59 AM

so infineon it is!
right?...

Most probably.

In other news, http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/02/sony-ericssons-xperia-x1-delayed-until-next-year-we-think-hop/
The Sony Xperia X1 might be delayed until 2009. (It was slated to be one of the first touchscreen S60 4th gen phones...) We'll see if other 4th gen phones slip their dates too.

kdarling

Mar 4, 2008, 08:26 AM

...The Sony Xperia X1 might be delayed until 2009. (It was slated to be one of the first touchscreen S60 4th gen phones...) We'll see if other 4th gen phones slip their dates too.

The rumored delay was a typo on their website. It's still slated for second half 2008.

And it's not an S60 phone, it's Windows Mobile, which is why it's such big news (besides the slick front end UI and 800x480 screen).

t0mat0

Mar 4, 2008, 09:22 AM

The rumored delay was a typo on their website. It's still slated for second half 2008.

And it's not an S60 phone, it's Windows Mobile, which is why it's such big news (besides the slick front end UI and 800x480 screen).

Ooops - my bad. I hadn't read the update on the typo.

Hmm, anyone read
http://blogs.msdn.com/roberdan/archive/2008/03/04/nokia-to-bring-microsoft-silverlight-powered-experiences-to-millions-of-mobile-users.aspx
Nokia & Silverlight? Interesting. Apple hasn't shown how it's going to handle the SIlverlight, Prism, AIR issue yet, and it soon needs to...

kdarling

Mar 4, 2008, 11:18 AM

Ooops - my bad. I hadn't read the update on the typo.

Not your fault. Rumors fly too fast around the blogosphere these days :-)

Silverlight on Nokia

MS makes me crazy. Where is Silverlight for WM first?

Silverlight is what makes me think, like you, that Apple might have something up their sleeve to combat it and AIR.

IlliniDude

Mar 4, 2008, 12:50 PM

In a research note today following a series of meetings with Taiwanese electronics companies, Citigroup’s Richard Gardner says “several sources confirmed the introduction of a new 3G iPhone” in calendar Q2. He says that iPhone and iPod units “may disappoint again” in the March quarter, but says that should be offset by “solid PC momentum and sharp declines in DRAM and NAND pricing.” He advises buying the stock on weakness ahead of the 3G iPhone’s arrival.

t0mat0

Mar 4, 2008, 04:55 PM

In a research note today following a series of meetings with Taiwanese electronics companies, Citigroup’s Richard Gardner says “several sources confirmed the introduction of a new 3G iPhone” in calendar Q2.

Aye, what we've been saying, and Macworld's been saying before that. It's good to know accurately though. bet's on for an Apple expo/announcement by June.

SilentLoner

Mar 4, 2008, 05:14 PM

what price point will it be at in the UK?

t0mat0

Mar 5, 2008, 06:29 PM

what price point will it be at in the UK?

I'd say price points. I hope they have learnt their lesson of putting the price up too high, though they may well do the same, cream off the 3G fanatics, then price drop for Back to school / Christmas.

t0mat0

Mar 6, 2008, 06:51 PM

June it is? Still in the 2Q. Looks like it from the SDK announcements etc.
Boooom.

neiltc13

Mar 6, 2008, 07:08 PM

MikeDTyke

Mar 7, 2008, 06:38 AM

I'm not sure why people aren't noticing this trend. When Apple says something will ship in a certain month or year, they usually mean they'll do it at the last possible minute. When they say Time Capsule ships in February, they ship them on the 29th. When they say iPhone arrives in June, it comes right at the end of the month. When they say 3G iPhone in 2008 they definitely, 100% do not mean that it will be out before people get the best reason to buy the first generation yet.

Think about it, why on earth would Apple release a new iPhone when the old iPhone is just about to get a crapload of new functionality which will drive sales through the roof?

You are confusing months with years.

When Apple states something is coming out in a particular month, that's what they're aiming for. But what with the vagaries of software development it sometimes slips a week or two. That's pretty good. The Leopard delay was an obvious painful exception and was due to the fact Apple did not have enough OS engineers to do it and the iPhone OS.

Apple gave an estimate of late 2008. That was to hedge their bets as at the time Jobs said that, the two potential 3G chipsets they could use had not been officially announced nor, their shipping timeline.

As it happens, both chips are available now for sampling and ramp up of manufacturing is targetted at Q2, (that's what i know, i bet Apple has a more accurate date).

Apple knows it's hurting for sales in certain markets because it doesn't have 3G. It's not going to hold off on delivering that, just cos they've got a big software bump. 3G is coming as soon as they can humanly deliver it! END OF.

M.

t0mat0

Mar 12, 2008, 05:22 PM

I'm not sure why people aren't noticing this trend. When Apple says something will ship in a certain month or year, they usually mean they'll do it at the last possible minute.
<snip>
When they say 3G iPhone in 2008 they definitely, 100% do not mean that it will be out before people get the best reason to buy the first generation yet.
Think about it, why on earth would Apple release a new iPhone when the old iPhone is just about to get a crapload of new functionality which will drive sales through the roof?

1) Apple has a nice big conference coming in June with developers, the world's press, lay consumers - all watching, listening, getting out their wallets. It can release on its own turf, to an anniversary of a successful v1.0 iPhone.

2) You're missing part of the reason of this thread - we're looking at the earliest feasibility of an assembled 3G iPhone, then looking at clues for component orders, assemblage, and shipping of 3G iPhones etc.
By your logic, it'd come out the last work day of December, completely missing the peak of Christmas sales. So you'd then have to back-track, using the logic that they'd do it earlier so they'd get peak sales. So why not take that further, and say they'd release when they can, before peak shopping times (in this year, pre-back to school, pre-Christmas sales for example).

And maybe do it at a time when they have lots of Apple developers and the press there. And maybe on an anniversary for the product. Maybe as soon as they can like they did the SDK. When's the SDK go from beta to full SDk again?

3) The last part hurts me. You're saying that Apple won't release a new iPhone because the old one has sustained functionality.
That's akin to saying that pre-Leopard release that Apple wouldn't release the MacBook Air/new MBPs, because the old MacBooks are about to get a lot more functionality from the new Leopard release.

Apple will release an update before people's contracts run out from the start, they'll want the Japanese, Europe market on board asap. They want 10 million. People are to an extent aware of market cycles on phones. A year is a long time (Apple has 1 iPhone, not a proper range of handsets.)

toute suite, and the tooter the sweeter.

More information in a bit when i've edited the text down

Edit:
As understood previously - Intel's behind in the game, but things hot up in 2009.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/03/12/more_evidence_of_apples_iphone_eventually_going_intel.html

Moorestown is the chip for a future iPhone, but the telling quote is this:
last fall as executives for the chipmaker flaunted an unnamed Moorestown processor, describing it as the "chip the iPhone would have wanted."

So that's the chip Apple would have wanted in 2007, available in 2009.
(The future = bottom of x axis in the picture, hence Smartphone being big market and in the future, in 2nd gen "Moorestown/Future"...)

Right. Happily Infineon and Broadcomm R&D amongst others, have had more time to tinker and currently trounce Intel Atom chip power usage.

I'll trawl to see if there's anything about dates for 3G iPhone shipping June, but ain't seen anything recently...

JBaker122586

Mar 12, 2008, 05:33 PM

I'm not sure why people aren't noticing this trend. When Apple says something will ship in a certain month or year, they usually mean they'll do it at the last possible minute. When they say Time Capsule ships in February, they ship them on the 29th. When they say iPhone arrives in June, it comes right at the end of the month. When they say 3G iPhone in 2008 they definitely, 100% do not mean that it will be out before people get the best reason to buy the first generation yet.

Think about it, why on earth would Apple release a new iPhone when the old iPhone is just about to get a crapload of new functionality which will drive sales through the roof?

Thank you. I 100% agree with this post.
Apple want to make as much money from the iPhone as possible. The 2.0 update will boost sales of the phone through the roof. All from first time iPhone purchasers.

When a 3G version is released, sales will once again get a huge boost. Many from first time iPhone purchasers, but also many from people who already own an iPhone (including those who bought their first iPhone after the 2.0 update).

If they released the 3G iPhone at the same time as the 2.0 update, they'd cost themselves quite a bit of money. It's not like they're losing money by not having 3G compatibility and release in some foreign markets right now. An extra 5 or 6 months wait in those territories won't drive consumers away. They'll still be there in November.

And to those saying "Apple will get us a 3G iPhone the moment it is physically possible," you are kidding yourselves.

Apple could have given us a 3G iPhone on June 29, 2007.

t0mat0

Mar 12, 2008, 06:15 PM

It's not like they're losing money by not having 3G compatibility and release in some foreign markets right now. An extra 5 or 6 months wait in those territories won't drive consumers away. They'll still be there in November.

And to those saying "Apple will get us a 3G iPhone the moment it is physically possible," you are kidding yourselves.
Apple could have given us a 3G iPhone on June 29, 2007.

They're losing potential sales through not having 3G i'd wager. I don't think now is the time for Apple to sit on its laurels. The consumers will still be there in November. So will the general release of 3G SoC to other handset makers. By then, it's estimated you'll also have 4th generation touchscreen Sybian Nokia phones for example.

I think it's fair to ask a date if you don't think it's late June or thereabouts. It seems you're saying September?

Not when it's physically possible (Ooh, the N95 - how nice to see you. Made it to the US yet?) I myself am hedging on saying Apple will give us 3G when it's realistic.

Apple could have given us 3G already. And for sound reasons, they didn't. That given reason (power consumption) is now addressed through the current 3G chips. That power efficiency is there, to rival the current iPhone.
Those chips are producing in quantity. They're ready to be put in devices for shipping come late 2Q or thereabouts.

You're saying that Apple would have the relevant hardware ready months and then sit on it for 5 months?

What's that Engadget? http://feeds.engadget.com/~r/weblogsinc/engadget/~3/246966759/
WWDC ~June 8th. Add FCC time after that, and it's shipped.

Now we could all be wrong - we've seen Apple take it's sweet ^*(^$ %^^ing time with chipset/CPU upgrades on both Mac Pro and laptop lines. I'd imagine that Apple would want to ship for the back to school and Christmas time, right?

JBaker122586

Mar 12, 2008, 06:33 PM

Apple wouldn't DARE announce a 3G iPhone for the future in June. Talk about cannibalizing sales...

My bet is an announcement mid-August to early September (around the time of the iPod Touch announcement) with a release in November.

I'm not saying that they're just sitting on completed hardware. I'm saying they haven't put an incredible amount of effort into getting 3G in the iPhone yet like a lot of you are assuming. It won't be hard for them to just pop a 3G chip in the iPhone and ship it when the time comes.

t0mat0

Mar 12, 2008, 07:08 PM

Apple wouldn't DARE announce a 3G iPhone for the future in June. Talk about cannibalizing sales...

If they had a 3G iPhone ready - and announced it, and then a user buys the 3G iPhone instead of the most recent one, how is that "cannabilising sales"? Apple has the sale. Can you explain what you mean by cannabilising in this context?

I'm not saying that they're just sitting on completed hardware. I'm saying they haven't put an incredible amount of effort into getting 3G in the iPhone yet like a lot of you are assuming. It won't be hard for them to just pop a 3G chip in the iPhone and ship it when the time comes.

And neither are we. They ain't doing the R&D on the 3G chip. As you say - "It won't be hard for them to just pop a 3G chip in the iPhone and ship it when the time comes."
Apple's said it's been waiting for a decent 3G chip, before it puts one in. That chips here. All we're saying. It's being produced, being shipped. We're just disagreeing on whether the time is nearer June or nearer November.

Does Apple have anything to gain in waiting for other handset manufacturers to catch up? Wouldn't they want to keep that multi-year lead ahead of other handset producers?

My bet is an announcement mid-August to early September (around the time of the iPod Touch announcement) with a release in November.

Why then?

JBaker122586

Mar 12, 2008, 07:17 PM

If they had a 3G iPhone ready - and announced it, and then a user buys the 3G iPhone instead of the most recent one, how is that "cannabilising sales"? Apple has the sale. Can you explain what you mean by cannabilising in this context?

I said that if they ANNOUNCE it in June and release it later, they'd cannibalize sales significantly. As most are speculating, they'd have to gain FCC approval before releasing the handset. Apparently this is about a 2 month process, and is public record. Therefore, they'd have to submit it for FCC approval pretty soon if they want to release it in June. They'd make an official announcement about it so some kid reading through the FCC website wouldn't be the first to get the news out about a new iPhone. With the 2.0 update coming in June, why have one marketing event and sales increase when you can have two?

Does Apple have anything to gain in waiting for other handset manufacturers to catch up? Wouldn't they want to keep that multi-year lead ahead of other handset producers?

Why then?

Apple doesn't have a multi-year lead in terms of Internet capability. They're behind most smartphones, in terms of 3G capability at least. The reason the iPhone is so far ahead of everything else out there is the GUI, and that's not going to change. An August/September announcement and November release makes the most sense, because sales will inevitably slow down between the 3G announcement and release. Why not have that slowdown when you expect sales to be a bit sluggish anyway, and the sales boost at the time most money is spent on consumer goods all year?

kdarling

Mar 12, 2008, 08:35 PM

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/03/12/more_evidence_of_apples_iphone_eventually_going_intel.html

Moorestown is the chip for a future iPhone, but the telling quote is this:
last fall as executives for the chipmaker flaunted an unnamed Moorestown processor, describing it as the "chip the iPhone would have wanted."

That doesn't mean the iPhone will use that chip.

Their comment is as useful as the other pictures in that PowerPoint slide. Ever make one of those for business? I've made hundreds. You grab whatever pictures look cool on the page.

And look closer. They say the chip is good for "Premium Smartphones", and then they show the iPhone as just a "Smartphone".

JTrain23

Mar 12, 2008, 08:37 PM

Heck, when will I have my iPhone! (canada....)

America Jr. wants an iPhone??!! LMAO

t0mat0

Mar 12, 2008, 09:10 PM

I guess on the flipside they might reckon having 2 months of sales of lower level is worth it (run down the stock, sell off refurb/ reduced price etc) for the chance to have 2 months of build up?
They're going to lose some sales whenever the FCC news hits, unless they can have a really small FCC releace to shipping time period.

I take your point about having 2 events. The flipside of that is having a *huge* event. It'd make more sense if you wanted to have a softer release of a 3G iPhone - use the 1st version to iron out the bumps in terms of the Application store, SDK etc, then have a solid line up ready for a smoother new iPhone release.

But doesn't Apple risk losing it's key selling points. I totally agree Apple is several years ahead in terms of OS - but that is a deeper thing, and sometimes cosmetic views can deceive consumers.
I'd say that Apple has the lead in terms of accessibility to the internet, but not the speed (by the metrics, the internet data usage of the iPhone is much higher than most other handsets).

Wouldn't Apple want the chance to cement in the public's view, that the iPhone is amazing, and it's new version has some great new updates?
If the GUI isn't going to improve much more, and there will soon be lots of touchscreen rivals, why not push further, and get the brand out there - so that user prerequisites, expectations, have been increased to not only touch screen, but music store (ipod capabilities, iTunes like app) and also Application store. By getting people hooked/aware of the apps out there by June, it'd weaken other handset manufacturers key selling points.

Having moved on from the GUI, and move to wanting/automatically making a prerequisite of rivals to have not only touch screen, but also be a rival in terms of music, and in terms of games, and applications -
The SDK talk seemed to show that the iPhone has so much potential to kick ass in many new areas (Games, business and non business apps).

However, i'll admit, the above doesn't necessarily need a 3G model to push it through. One problem would be, that if you did have a spike in sales come June time, then you'd have more people kicking themselves for buying just before a hardware upgrade came (5Mpixel cam with video, 3G, better battery life etc). If you launch both, you don't have that problem. So that'd mean potentially as you say, an FCC Apple announcement ~April to give 2 months so they're on sale Come the end of the keynote at WWDC.

If you announce in June, you can release August, before back to school? If the sales (the phone, and if it's not hacked, the monthly slice from the network) are spread out financially over a length of time, then financially the sooner the you've got customers, the better, no?

I guess we'll see :) Fun to spar over it - hope you don't mind my slightly opposing view on timings - it's all conjecture from my side hehe

Good grief. Saying that doesn't mean the iPhone will use that chip. Their comment is as meaningless as the other pictures in that PowerPoint slide. Ever make one of those for business? I've made hundreds. You grab whatever pictures look cool on the page.
And look closer. They say the chip is good for "Premium Smartphones", and then they show the iPhone as just a "Smartphone".

The slide is painful I agree! - Intel's got some work to do, but I don't doubt it'll try to muscle in on the larger MID/ tablet market with their new chips come 2009. The labelling is dodgy too - might make more sense after hearing the presentation, who knows.

fteter

Mar 12, 2008, 09:20 PM

Okay, so today was the day I went down to the local ATT store today with the intent of buying an iPhone. No more waiting...just do it! Got to admit though, that this thread was in the back of my mind as I drove down there.

Walked into the store and right up to the demos on display. Still liked the way it felt in my hand. Still liked the nifty user interface. Things were looking good. Hmmm, the demo was running on EDGE. I'd never tried one of these without the WiFi so, with all the stuff I've read in this forum about EDGE v 3G, let's give it a try...

So I tried loading up CNN. After waiting and watching the iPhone try to load for 4 minutes, the phone went dark. Never did load the front page to CNN. Hey, there's a bookmark here for Yahoo, let's try that! 4 minutes later, dark phone - never did get to Yahoo. Tried to load eWeek...took a little nap...woke up to the same result. Called over a sales guy, told him my experience, he suggested we back out of Safari and try something on YouTube. Okay, let's load a list of today's most viewed...salesman goes :eek: "that's way too much for an EDGE connection" - turns out he was right about that. Salesman calls more senior sales guy over, who looks at demo phone and tells us we should turn the WiFi back on. When I mention web surfing with EDGE, he tells me to stick to phone calls when there's no WiFi. Youch! I thanked both sales reps for their time and suggested they call me when the 3G model comes out...NO SALE!!!

Your mileage may vary depending on your circumstances and your use of the iPhone, but my experience with a demo in the ATT store indicates that the speed of the EDGE network...well, let's just say "speed" and "EDGE" are mutually exclusive terms ;) Think molasses running...uphill...in the winter...and that'll give you a feel for what we're talking about here. And if it's that bad as a demo in the ATT store, imagine what it'll be like under less than ideal conditions, which would be almost everywhere else!

Having experienced EDGE for myself, now I get the fuss over 3G for the iPhone. Using an iPhone on the EDGE network to access the web is not too far removed from a dial-up modem...and a darned expensive dial-up modem at that. Still want the iPhone in a bad way. Love the iPhone look and feel. However, that EDGE thing... I mean, please send all my best to those happy with the iPhone and EDGE network, but I'll wait for 3G myself. PUHLEEZE let it be June!!!

SleepingSicknes

Mar 12, 2008, 09:24 PM

i don't understand what 3G is:confused:

AGSHender

Mar 12, 2008, 09:34 PM

1) Edit:
As understood previously - Intel's behind in the game, but things hot up in 2009.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/03/12/more_evidence_of_apples_iphone_eventually_going_intel.html

Moorestown is the chip for a future iPhone, but the telling quote is this:
last fall as executives for the chipmaker flaunted an unnamed Moorestown processor, describing it as the "chip the iPhone would have wanted."

So that's the chip Apple would have wanted in 2007, available in 2009.
(The future = bottom of x axis in the picture, hence Smartphone being big market and in the future, in 2nd gen "Moorestown/Future"...)

Not a chance. You put far too much stock into Intel. If a future iPhone revision ever gets one of Intel's new chips designed for ultramobile devices such as a smartphone, it won't be until the third or fourth revision (iPhone, Intel chip, take your pick) at the very least, and that's literally four or five years out. Why? Power. Not speed, but rather how much power it draws. ARM's RISC processors are the 800-lb. (or 1 lb.) gorilla to be dealt with in terms of performance versus power draw at the moment, and a recent AnandTech article (linked on the main MacRumors page regarding this very issue) downplays Intel's positioning of themselves into this market for years to come.

Intel wants to make itself a player, but they're so far behind ARM, it's going to take them years to position themselves as a competitor. Is it folly to completely discount Intel chips inside a future iPhone? Of course. Is it reasonable to suggest it won't be for four or five years? Based on Intel's first and probable second generation products, absolutely.

Seriously, do you think the iPhone needs to be "faster" anyway?

steve jr.

Mar 12, 2008, 09:50 PM

Let's think about this. If Apple was working on iPhone 2 years before we all seriously considered it, why wouldn't Apple build and test the phone on every network and on every service, including 3G? I'm sure they tried all the chips and found what they found. And more than likely they even had (or did it themselves) someone build them a custom 3G chip and test it until it met their specs.

I'm confident the 3G iPhone exists and has. It's in their roadmap and was all done at once. All they have to do is pull the trigger and start manufacturing in bulk.

-Steve

t0mat0

Mar 12, 2008, 10:10 PM

If Apple was working on iPhone 2 years before we all seriously considered it, why wouldn't Apple build and test the phone on every network and on every service, including 3G? I'm sure they tried all the chips and found what they found. And more than likely they even had (or did it themselves) someone build them a custom 3G chip and test it until it met their specs.
All they have to do is pull the trigger and start manufacturing in bulk.

Hence the discussion with JBaker122586 about timings. The power efficient 3G chip hasn't been out yet - it's only really as far as we know even made small samplings last autumn. Shippin in quantity around now, so Apple's had access i'd say to the 3G chip it'd pretty much use for going on >6 months, but not 2 years.

AGSHender - I agree - I don't think Intel competes. It has to fight through the tablet and laptop market first, then larger Mobile internet devices. And yes. Faster. Much faster. Hehe. Well, if it's going to take till Sept/November, at least it's guaranteed to have a 32Gb model :)

It seems to have gone quiet on the 3G iPhone's timing front

olternaut

Mar 12, 2008, 10:20 PM

i don't understand what 3G is:confused:

Google it dude. It was "next gen" when it came out a few years ago in europe. Its a wireless standard for cell phone signals a third generation standard or "3G" standard.
Correct me if I'm wrong someone. Anyway it was supposed to usher in broadband type of connections with some even touting video conferencing. Never happened. But it certainly faster than EDGE thats for sure.
Personally, I'm much more interested in "4G" wimax or LTE solutions for city-wide always on broadband. Then we will see some video conferencing ala "tekwar" anybody remember those cool sci-fi telemovies that William Shatner did? :)

kdarling

Mar 12, 2008, 10:38 PM

Let's think about this. If Apple was working on iPhone 2 years before we all seriously considered it, why wouldn't Apple build and test the phone on every network and on every service, including 3G?

They wouldn't need to worry about CDMA, of course. They apparently only approached Verizon aside from ATT. Once those year long talks fell through, Apple knew they only had to build and test for ATT's GSM network.

As for 3G, it's possible that they built a large breadboard version, but decided it would cost too much to implement, along with worries about the extra user data plan price. (ATT probably only agreed to the $20 data plan because it was limited to EDGE.)

They didn't get seriously started on it until late 2005. By all reports, they barely got the iPhone working properly before its announcement, so it's doubtful they had any extra time to spend on anything else.

gowanis

Mar 13, 2008, 09:55 AM

So I tried loading up CNN. After waiting and watching the iPhone try to load for 4 minutes, the phone went dark. Never did load the front page to CNN. Hey, there's a bookmark here for Yahoo, let's try that! 4 minutes later, dark phone - never did get to Yahoo. Tried to load eWeek...took a little nap...woke up to the same result. Called over a sales guy, told him my experience, he suggested we back out of Safari and try something on YouTube. Okay, let's load a list of today's most viewed...salesman goes :eek: "that's way too much for an EDGE connection" - turns out he was right about that. Salesman calls more senior sales guy over, who looks at demo phone and tells us we should turn the WiFi back on. When I mention web surfing with EDGE, he tells me to stick to phone calls when there's no WiFi. Youch! I thanked both sales reps for their time and suggested they call me when the 3G model comes out...NO SALE!!!

i shared your concerns. i've been on verizon (Treo 700w) with data for 2 years. Speeds were decent (200-800 kbps), usually around 300kbps. but i grew tired of the tiny square screen and low memory. i was only able to load certain low intensity web sites - anything graphics intensive would lock up the phone and require a soft reset.

Last weekend i bit the bullet for iPhone. I was tired of waiting for 3G. I'll be saving $50/month (Verizon was costing me $110/month) so i figure if a 3G iPhone takes 6 months, my savings alone will cover most of the cost of getting another iPhone.

EDGE is SLOW, no doubt about it. It really depends on your location. Sadly, where I work EDGE is really lousy, and i get anywhere from 70-110 kbps. Elsewhere, i get a solid 200. 200 kbps is fine - when you combine it with a good device (iPhone) and broswer (Safari). Data speed is not everything - the device and how it renders pages is important. Safari is light years ahead of Pocket IE on the Treo.

I'm happy for now. the iPhone allows me to carry one device instead of a large phone and an ipod. For me its worth it even with the slower EDGE.

SFC Archer

Mar 13, 2008, 10:11 AM

This subject has been really beat to death, but as I have stated in other threads...IMHO no one will see iPhone 2 until October.

The SDK was predicted for February. Was one week late in release of Beta but no one gets to use it until June...4 month wait.

Major software update...iTunes Store...version 1.1.1 (I believe) was released roughly 4 months after the iPhone went on sale.

16gb iPhone released roughly 4 months after the major software upgrade, same time period as SDK beta release.

June comes around and has release of new 2.0 software, bolsters and renews current iPhone to empty current inventories of remaining 8gig and 16gig iPhones.

iPhone 2 released 3-4 months later to take advantage of marketing strategies and empty inventory of old model to increase the chance to reach predicted sales of 10m units. If they release software update 2.0 & iPhone 2 at the same time, they risk the chance of not reaching the sales goal. If they spread it out over two different release opportunities, they increase the odds of reaching the goal. Released in time for holiday shopping and Oct is also the start of the Fiscal Year (marketing/sales).

This is my prediction and opinion.

Mister9

Mar 13, 2008, 02:56 PM

its gonna be just like february again this June... will it be an iPhone or MBP on said Tuesday?? Apple knows how to get attention.

t0mat0

Mar 13, 2008, 07:34 PM

IMHO no one will see iPhone 2 until October.

June comes around and has release of new 2.0 software, bolsters and renews current iPhone to empty current inventories of remaining 8gig and 16gig iPhones.

iPhone 2 released 3-4 months later to take advantage of marketing strategies and empty inventory of old model to increase the chance to reach predicted sales of 10m units. If they release software update 2.0 & iPhone 2 at the same time, they risk the chance of not reaching the sales goal. If they spread it out over two different release opportunities, they increase the odds of reaching the goal. Released in time for holiday shopping and Oct is also the start of the Fiscal Year (marketing/sales).

This is my prediction and opinion.

Is the SDK enough of a "landmark event. In more ways than one" ?

I'd imagine Apple wouldn't want to announce iPhone in new markets too close to the upgrade to a 3G iPhone.

So.... thoughts?

Justinerator

Mar 14, 2008, 02:02 AM

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

IMHO no one will see iPhone 2 until October.

June comes around and has release of new 2.0 software, bolsters and renews current iPhone to empty current inventories of remaining 8gig and 16gig iPhones.

iPhone 2 released 3-4 months later to take advantage of marketing strategies and empty inventory of old model to increase the chance to reach predicted sales of 10m units. If they release software update 2.0 & iPhone 2 at the same time, they risk the chance of not reaching the sales goal. If they spread it out over two different release opportunities, they increase the odds of reaching the goal. Released in time for holiday shopping and Oct is also the start of the Fiscal Year (marketing/sales).

This is my prediction and opinion.

Is the SDK enough of a "landmark event. In more ways than one" ?

I'd imagine Apple wouldn't want to announce iPhone in new markets too close to the upgrade to a 3G iPhone.

So.... thoughts?

I believe only time will tell. The only other thing i will say is that it makes complete sense for apple to release new hardware along with new software

needthephone

Mar 14, 2008, 05:54 AM

To the people who are saying why would apple obsolete a product when its selling so well.

OK true for the US, but in vast swathes of this planet which have kept with the programme and have modern cell phone networks a non 3g iphone will be ridiculed and will simply not sell as 3g is so heavily marketed.

despite the beautiful gui apple MUST have 3g for these countries.

Watch out for the progress of the Sydney apple store when they let people up the glass staircases in June chances are they'll be going down them again with 3G iphone 2's

SFC Archer

Mar 14, 2008, 02:42 PM

Is the SDK enough of a "landmark event. In more ways than one" ?

I'd imagine Apple wouldn't want to announce iPhone in new markets too close to the upgrade to a 3G iPhone.

So.... thoughts?

I deffinetly believe it is a major landmark event. Look at when the orginal announcement of an SDK was made public. It made media headlines all over the world, got more users interested and increased sales and expectations for February. Look at how much rif raf came about when it was only a week late. Look at the excitement in just these forums alone when the beta was finally released. The anticaption is huge, the market will be huge and along with the release of the 16gig (very smart move to get people to buy thinking they will need the space for native apps) was a landmark event. Currently, it is hard to find 16 gig iPhones and then watch in May when all of a sudden there will be plently of 16 gig phones to buy right before the release of SDK, another sales spike. This whole SDK is unpressedent and is setting a new standard for cell phones. They are expanding new markets (two today) every month for the next 3 months...they would not do that if they were going to release a 3G. There will be a 4-6 month gap in opening new markets before offering version 2...this is common sense otherwise the anger would be something fierce in those countries as it happened here with the price reduction.
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

I believe only time will tell. The only other thing i will say is that it makes complete sense for apple to release new hardware along with new software

It does not make perfect sense, not if you want to sell more of your product. The sense is to sell as many as you possibly can of the current product, refresh it with software/native apps and sell more. And, as stated above, if you are going to expand your market, you are deffinetly not going to release a new version within 4-6 months of what you just offered to that market. It makes complete sense to break apart your products to always get new customers and to catch some of that market you already posses to always keep their loved product fresh. They will not release at the same time IMO

t0mat0

Mar 18, 2008, 07:42 PM

Having read a member on the boards say that'd he'd heard from an O2 rep that there was something coming August time, it might be fun to substantiate that.

That timeframe of an August announcement...
SDK, plus FCC ruling? They could do a price hit come June, then have the new 3G iPhone come August post FCC/UK equvalent etc.

Having thought more about it, and read up on some articles on app development for mobiles, the SDK in June *is* big :) I would imagine Gates will be able to bring on a fair few BIG names showing their apps that they've built to be ready come WWDC. And what with the court case finished, unless there's another hearing for an time dragging appeal, McCartney might be able to finally get some Beatles music ready for WWDC? Gotta dream.

Interesting estimate: ~85 % of Japanese handset owners are on 3G models, with no 2G handsets sold at the start of 2008.
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/03/17/docomo_dump_2g_2012_january/

Kristijan

Mar 18, 2008, 11:05 PM

Having thought more about it, and read up on some articles on app development for mobiles, the SDK in June *is* big :) I would imagine Gates will be able to bring on a fair few BIG names showing their apps that they've built to be ready come WWDC. And what with the court case finished, unless there's another hearing for an time dragging appeal, McCartney might be able to finally get some Beatles music ready for WWDC? Gotta dream.

I'm guessing you mean Jobs :P

-Kristijan

t0mat0

Mar 18, 2008, 11:17 PM

I'm guessing you mean Jobs :P

-Kristijan

hehe. Quite possibly ;)

Tadros86

Mar 19, 2008, 12:37 PM

wesk702

Mar 19, 2008, 01:15 PM

August 23rd

t0mat0

Mar 19, 2008, 05:19 PM

August 23rd

A saturday. How... exotic :D

kuliand

Mar 19, 2008, 05:55 PM

t0mat0

Mar 19, 2008, 06:23 PM

Any idea if the iphone 2/3g will have gps built in? this is an essential feature for me i know the iphone now has that cell tower based system but i can't see that being very accurate certainly not much use for in car navigation heck gps could do with being more accurate sometimes.

It's open for discussion. Currently, Apple uses Google maps, and uses cell triangulation, with any wifi hotspot information. But it's not GPS accuracy at all really.

Seeing as there's convergence in many markets (GPS, Cellphone, mp3 players) Apple has an opportunity/need to get in on this.
They could incorporate it across the whole line, make it optional, or have it as an external accessory. With the new hardware coming for A-GPS, they could just about fit a chip internally, but are more likely to offer external plug in devices - like a dock/charger for cars that already has the GPS chip in, or a small 1/2 matchbox sized/Nike Plus sized plug in. A stand alone chip'll most likely be marketed come the SDK launch - it's feasable, as prototypes have already been shown.

Nokia already has A-GPS in it's N95, though Nokia has the maps know how to go with this - Apple doesn't.

Short answer - yes, by Autumn there will be a plug in hardware option. Like 3G battery usage, GPS is still seen as a battery drainer, so it might be v3 before we see it as an option. Once Infineon/Broadcomm start offering it as part of their all in one chip for phones, it's much more likely.

TheMadBrewer

Mar 20, 2008, 01:16 AM

of course there is this... (http://www.electronista.com/articles/08/01/30/garmin.nuviphone/) GPS, maps, 3G, etc. Still vaporware but it would give the iPhone some serious competition if it works.

iStefmac

Mar 20, 2008, 03:19 PM

Enjoy these last few days of relative privacy before GPS is forced upon iPhone users. The absolutely useless function for the retarded will be making its way to the iPhone, I'm sure by its very next version.

Quite a life, the GPS-user has.

- Has no idea where they are, ever. (Why else would you need a tool to fix this in your pocket?)

- Has no concern for letting large corporations provide them with GPS technology.

I fear for every one of you. To upgrade to 3G would be nice, but since I'm sure GPS will be forced upon us, I won't get to benefit. Oh well.

BoJaNgLes19

Mar 20, 2008, 10:36 PM

hi im new here, and I am a big Apple supporter. The one thing thats driving me crazy right now is what to do with the iPhone. I mean now you can get them for $250 refurbished! The only thing holding me back is the fact there is an "unknown" factor in the second gen iPhone, in hardware and network capabilities. Its such a hard decision to make. Not only that, but what if I wait all this time and then plans change in AT&T? I am considering selling my touch, but if I have to wait until the holidays to get a second gen iPhone forget selling it. As of now, my best guess is like what many think, a release/announcement sooner rather than later. I would say it would be out by late summer early fall at the latest, especially since sources point in the direction of Asia getting the phone soon, which would indicate a 3G model. I am as much interested in hardware as the upgrade to 3G, but will I see much of a difference?

If someone could, these are things I would like to get insight on specifically (rumor-wise, lol):
The likelihood of
- a better camera (as in pixels/flash)
- actually seeing a difference in connection speed (obviously it varies where you are, but in general)
- a better resolution screen
- more capacity
- price???

I dont want to see a new phone come out with just an updated 3G network. Id like to see some other new hardware updates as well.

Obviously we do not have many facts to go on, but any insight would be great. I am new to forums and last night read a bunch and I have been wanting to talk about this with others for so long. I had no idea there was this much of a community for this sort of thing. Thanks and sorry if I disappointed all of you watching this thread for new info.

t0mat0

Mar 20, 2008, 11:14 PM

If someone could, these are things I would like to get insight on specifically:
The likelihood of
- a better camera (as in pixels/flash)
- actually seeing a difference in connection speed (obviously it varies where you are, but in general)
- a better resolution screen
- more capacity
- price???

No worries about joining in the debate :)
Whilst you could simply bolt upgraded components in, there will be certain constraints until you start upgrading other parts in the phone. Due to this, there well may be additional hardware perks linked in to 3G capability, such as a higher resolution camera capability than currently. Will it be Samsung's ARM-based S3C6410 (estimate Mass production 2Q 08) Or Broadcomm's BCM21551 (Painfully a 09 estimate currently afaik) Or other? We don't know really...

A higher capacity is pretty much a given - seeing as the new round of baseband/3G System on a chip parts take less space = for the same form factor you have more space for things such as memory (and volume for a Gb is shrinking too).
If you have 3G you'll be likely to see a difference, more likely if it's a decent sized download, rather than a spurt to get a simple website page.

In terms of pricing - It's up for grabs really.
In terms of the screen - possible - they made a big deal of the Nano's screen - I'm sure if they could find a way they'd bump the resolution.
In terms of flash - Xenon maybe. I could see Ives tensing at the mere thought of integrating an LED flash in...

BoJaNgLes19

Mar 20, 2008, 11:31 PM

Well, like most I would love to hear something soon. Some sort of concrete evidence, FCC, Apple, something. Anyway, I'm excited nonetheless. Its not a matter of if I will get the iPhone, but when. For when I get it dictates the model, and price :/

Instant gratification vs. long-awaited anticipation haha. I can only trust that a second gen on such a revolutionary device will live up to our expectations :)

piecinitup

Mar 21, 2008, 01:55 AM

Edwardz

Mar 21, 2008, 02:10 AM

I concur with you, mi hombre. I've been saying this all along; and, it might be absurd to predict it, but it is a legitimate prediction. Also, this legitimate prediction will be proved correct in middle-late June. Hopefully.

I think the iPhone 2 will be out sooner than later. Apple is a horrible cellphone company, why? Cellphones get updated every few weeks, not software updates, HARDWARE! Sidekick 3 has had 3G for how long now? I know I am waiting for 3G, and more space. I think its hurting Apple more than helping not having 3G out right now. And points have been made that other companies will be further ahead then Apple if they wait. Heck Apple is already pretty far behind. So I say April-May latest June.

I do not agree with your statement about Apple Inc. being a terrible cell phone company. Apple is not like LG or Nokia. Apple is a broadband incorporation with regards to their products. Apple did not release 3G not due just to the draining of the battery, but he and his associates knew and believed that they could reach the profit goal with using just EDGE. However anyone looks at them as a cellular company, the bottom line is that it's a strategic, smart way to release a revolutionary product. The software updates are a revolution in itself, and bringing them out once every few months is enough for people to hold over for a new hardware update. Cellular phones do not get updated hardware-wise every couple of weeks; therefore, Apple will not either. I believe the iPhone will be released sometime in June, latest August. June is more of a probable, rational prediction due to the SDK release. However, debates and controversies will rise about the reason why Apple would release it parallel with SDK. The time will come when the time comes; I am just waiting very patiently for it.

rockstarjoe

Mar 21, 2008, 07:51 AM

One thing I considered is this:

Apple released the iTunes WiFi store, obviously because downloading music over edge would be ridiculous. When they release the App Store, you'll be able to download apps over wifi or the cell network. For me, a jailbreaker using installer app, i've tried downloading apps over edge, it's a disgrace. I just find it stupid to let iphone customers download apps over both and not music on itunes. That being said, 3G iphone in June with the app store is my prediction.

I hadn't thought of this before but this is a very good point! I also think at this point there are a whole lot of annecdotal signs pointing to a new iPhone coming in June. Probably announced at WWDC and available the last week of June. Here's to hoping, because I have been waiting since last January to get one of these guys! :)

t0mat0

Mar 21, 2008, 09:04 AM

I think the iPhone 2 will be out sooner than later. Apple is a horrible cellphone company, why? Cellphones get updated every few weeks, not software updates, HARDWARE! Sidekick 3 has had 3G for how long now? I know I am waiting for 3G, and more space. I think its hurting Apple more than helping not having 3G out right now. And points have been made that other companies will be further ahead then Apple if they wait. Heck Apple is already pretty far behind. So I say April-May latest June.

I think that Apple has a different style than say Nokia or Motorola etc. Apple does a few things well, and does this specifically: puts a few products out in areas of their choice, refines them and updates them, and creates product lines around.

The refresh rate for any particular model in say Nokia's range isn't weeks, but months (e.g. the launch of the N95, and it's successor the N96)

Seeing as currently there is only 1 style of iPhone (there's no iPhone Nano/Clamshell/tablet etc) refreshes have currently been bumps in capacity 8Gb-> 16Gb ->-> 32Gb soon

Painful though it is, Apple did get it right to not have 3G in at the start- the baseband chips were just to much of a hog for the kind of use they'd go through. Also it has to be remembered that they paved the way to an extent in terms of contracts with the networks, and a 3G iPhone will spark a huge data usage and data plans for this I'd imagine will start looking more like low end broadband connections than a few Mb data plan. How do you do a reasonable "All you can eat" data plan, if the customers suddenly were able to eat 5 times as fast, and eat say 20 times more? Apple will at some point soon have to crack that problem.

Apple did not release 3G not due just to the draining of the battery, but he and his associates knew and believed that they could reach the profit goal with using just EDGE. However anyone looks at them as a cellular company, the bottom line is that it's a strategic, smart way to release a revolutionary product. The software updates are a revolution in itself, and bringing them out once every few months is enough for people to hold over for a new hardware update. Cellular phones do not get updated hardware-wise every couple of weeks; therefore, Apple will not either. <Snip> The time will come when the time comes; I am just waiting very patiently for it.

They've reached it so far, but it might be below expectations, as tech savvy users are aware of the value of 3G. Unfortunately, I know of no decent polling of people (O2 could easily do an exit poll from the shop of customers) to show the level of knowledge, and the reasons for purchase or in this case non-purchase due to lack of 3G.
I'd agree that Apple's had to do a lot of strategic decisions. As Ford I think was quoted “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” Apple does things like enforcing no background usage of applications, so the phone is usable and doesn't drain due to programmers' resource greed.

Apple is breaking new ground, and they need time to do it. Popping a 3G chip in aint hard, it'll give them physical space. Whether they will wait a bit longer to have other components to pop in there is another matter.

Tadros86

Mar 21, 2008, 09:50 AM

I wasn't being completely serious with what I said haha. Sidekicks get upgraded like what once a year? iPhones gonna be year old in June, hence I think it'd be perfect time to update it. I didn't think I'd want an iPhone when it first came out, but after seeing all these new features I def changed my mind, I would like at least a 32GB option and 3G before I dive in though as I have about 30 GB of music and I love surfin the web. To my knowledge iPhone is supposed to pride itself on its internet and not having 3G is umm not flying for me lolol I would even like to see a 64GB, I would def jump on that, but I dunno how the flash chips are doing in heat and power consumtion and size. I don't follow that. Video option would def be awesome, and better camera would too, even though, iPhone already has the best camera I've seen in a cell phone. Games, aside from iPod designed games I don't see it happening any time soon, but one can dream. I still stand behind what I said about the release date being in the next few months. Sure software updates are basically like updating the phone, but hardware needs some updates every year at least. That's my two cents.

BoJaNgLes19

Mar 22, 2008, 12:58 AM

so i have another question for someone willing to answer...

what does everyone think the likelihood of at&t charging more for the 3g iPhone? I am on a family plan so minutes are taken care of and I only have to pay $20 a month on top of the plan to run the current iPhone. Does anyone see that price going way up?

Edwardz

Mar 22, 2008, 04:36 AM

Their revenue would drop sharp is they did that. Just because a carrier is changing speeds of their phone does not mean they'll charge more on top of what they're charging now. It'll be the same exact price, but the hardware might be something different.

joeshell383

Mar 22, 2008, 05:00 AM

but in vast swathes of this planet which have kept with the program and have modern cell phone networks a non 3g iphone will be ridiculed

Like the U.S.?

brian250

Mar 22, 2008, 10:23 AM

Im currently running an 8GB iPhone on O2 UK (jailbroken and unlocked for usage in Ireland too). I've had five different 3G handsets, two Nokias and two sony ericssons and a motorola. 3G was marketed as being great for downloads and video calling. I used video calling twice in 4 years. The connectivity of these handsets was so limited by the networks it was useless.

My iPhone on the other hand is fantastic. Its not blisteringly fast, but I promise you its faster than I have experienced on 3G. The awful thing about 3G is many networks will not allow you to fall back on GPRS/EDGE, which they should do. This is from my experience on numerous networks in Ireland and the UK. At the end of the day iPhone is not a replacement for your laptop or desktop, its fantastic on the move though and wi-fi is far, far more powerful then 3G will ever be.

Seriously, I dont fell like I am missing anything by not having 3G capability.

t0mat0

Mar 22, 2008, 11:28 AM

Seriously, I dont fell like I am missing anything by not having 3G capability.

True, 3G capability might not affect everyone that much - they won't necessarily suddenly feel they've got blistering data speeds.

However - By upgrading components to get 3G, on the back of this, the native and potential capability of the iPhone goes up - If they want to Apple could put a better camera in, provide video recording and so on.
I'm sure people would enjoy the capability of video recording. Having used qik a bit - the potential to simply hit private/public record, stream that out, publish your video to qik, kyte, mogulus, youtube - it'd be a great tool in giving the ease of use and power of making your own media, and sharing.
The potential is big, and this is just one use
- Sports training, Scoble style interviews, add a mike and you could do voice only interviews and so on.

The SDK provides potential, upgrades to the hardware expand this.

t0mat0

Mar 23, 2008, 11:13 AM

This might have already have been mentioned elsewhere, but I thought it might be worth bringing up (it's a slow Easter).

Infineon's already got the baseband chip in the current iPHone. They've got a 7 year non-exclusive licence with Apple that covers 3G. Their chip that'd most likely upgrade their current baseband chip is the S-Gold (which was sampling in Feb 2006).
(The X-GOLDTM 608 = PMB 8878 = S-Gold 3H)

"The S-GOLD3H is the heart of Infineon's next-generation mobile multimedia platform, which is called MP-EH, supporting HSDPA data rates of up to 7.2Mbps. Other components of the MP-EH are a power management chip SM-Power3; an RF transceiver SMARTi 3GE; a six-band WCDMA and quad-band EDGE RF transceiver; a Bluemoon UniCellular chip for Bluetooth connectivity; an assisted GPS positioning single-chip named Hammerhead; and a WLAN low power chip dubbed Wildcard LP. The S-GOLD3H supports GSM, EDGE, GPRS and WCDMA cellular networks.

Infineon's Earnings calls
(courtesy of seekingalpha's transcripts. This may be >400 words, apologies)

The most interesting is from the most recent quarter, but I include the previous quarter also:

IFX F4Q07 (Qtr End 9/30/07) Earnings Call Nov 14 2007
(Remember statements from these calls may contain forward-looking statements based on current expectations or beliefs, as well as a number of assumptions about future investments. These statements and other statements are not historical facts, are subject to factors & uncertainties, many of which are outside Infineon's control, that could cause actual results to differ materially from those described in the forward-looking statements. You are cautioned that Infineon's actual results could differ materially from the results anticipated or projected in any of these forward-looking statements, and they should not put undue reliance on them.)

Didier Scemama - ABN Amro

You've said you've got design wins, but: do you think the 3G-baseband or 3G-platform business could be substantial in fiscal year '08 or is it more further in the fiscal year '09 timeframe?

Hermann Eul

You will see significant shipments in 2008 on the HSDPA platform.

Sandeep Deshpande - JP Morgan And finally regarding HSDPA, you've said before that you have multiple customers for your HSDPA chips. Do you start shipping, in volume, your HSDPA chips in the second half of this year and is it to multiple customers or does this -- the volume ramp off of your HSDPA chips happen in 2008?

Dr. Hermann Eul So, the big volumes will be the 2008, we are still working towards the ramp of the customer in this calendar year. We will see how that works, and customers decide on when they go to market with the product, but we are on track with our technology to support this deal in this year, and the volume here will be 2008.

Jim Fontanelli - Arete Research Jim Fontanelli, just a quick question on the EDGE market, I wondered how quick you see the overall EDGE market moving to single chip over the next 18 months?

Dr. Hermann Eul The tendency will be that the EDGE market becomes a single chip market. This is certainly something which does not completely happen over the next 18 months, but will be a process, let's say two years. Certainly I expect most of you know how fast customers change platforms, and platforms' lifetime is about two years. So that, I think, is a good guidance that the change may happen over the next two to three years.

We like to see it that way because our EDGE single chip solution is there, we are ahead of competition here, and we can also address for the customer a very effective and good cost performance point and so we believe that the trend goes there, and will be tailored into our business.

Jonathan Crossfield - Merrill Lynch

Okay. And then, just a follow-up in COM: A couple of your competitors have now announced for the single chip 3G solutions in the last month. Is that something that Infineon is also working towards? Or: do you think that 3G solutions will stay multi-chip for the time being?

Hermann Eul

You may have noticed that without making big announcements we were the first having a single chip in the market and already have a second generation of that device now shipping. We had the first single chip for EDGE available, so, I think: you can trust that we have the capabilities for doing the single chips right in the point in time. But, I think: you should rely on execution rather than on announcements.

The most recent Earnings call: IFX F1Q08 (Qtr. End 12/31/07)

http://seekingalpha.com/article/63681-in-fineon-technologies-ag-f1q08-qtr-end-12-31-07-earnings-call-transcript?source=side_bar_transcripts

"I can announce today that we will begin shipments of our X-GOLD 208 90 nanometer base band formally called the s-Gold 3 to LG in the first half of 2008. In addition, we will begin shipments of our single-chip EDGE platform XMM 2060 into LG and also in the first half of 08. We are also looking forward to ramp...to the ramp of our HSDPA chipset in the coming months and we expect to start shipments of our GSM, GPRRS single-chip to Nokia in the summer.

... we expect to coming back to growth rates in the June quarter and onwards. So here we do see more positive outlook.

François Meunier - Cazenove

But exactly why I don't understand, because normally with LG shipping, I mean as more volume in the multi quarter and assuming will be customer, so what's weakest into their guidance for wireless?

Prof. Dr. Hermann Eul

So, we do have in wireless several customers and we see in the guidance of all the customers some weakness for this quarter. I can not comment on the guidance from a customer of us, but what our order entry is concerned, we do see a stronger weakness than the typical seasonal behavior that this situation as it is today. And I hope that your guidance, you've got from somebody else comes true.

Prof. Dr. Hermann Eul

So commenting on the Nokia question, the project is going on and what we can see from these project progress we have already given guidance when we believe the project can ramp into the market in the summer timeframe; that is what our guidance here would be; what we can do from the project focus. We also expected a few auto guidance in the first calendar year quarter, they do not happen. So for that reason, we said that the high end EDGE as well as single-chip EDGE ramp as well as the HSDP ramp will happen in the first half of this year.

Jonathan Crossfield - Merrill Lynch

And can you confirm whether those delays or anything to do with Infineon Technology or is that your customers decision to push out when they want those handsets to ramp up.

Prof. Dr. Hermann Eul - Member of the Management Board, Executive Vice President Head of Communication Solutions Business Group

The insight into customer ramp up plans is always somehow little bit limited. And also customers changing their plans making up for future sets and having different strategies. And usually they don't give us so deep inside. So here we have to just follow a customer's recommendation and customer plans.

Jonathan Crossfield - Merrill Lynch

Okay. And then just as a follow-up. Clearly, you've had good success on the 3G and EDGE design wins over the last year or so. Can you just say if you are making any further progress on this 3G and HSDPA beyond what you've talked about before?

Prof. Dr. Hermann Eul - Member of the Management Board, Executive Vice President Head of Communication Solutions Business Group

You will see that we will be announcing also next generation platform for HSDPA, HSUPA for the first half of this year. And as already mentioned the ramp up of the HSDPA platform we expect to happen in the first half of this calendar year. So I think this is good prediction and this will certainly be one...more than one customer ramping the HSDPA platform.

Prof. Dr. Hermann Eul - Member of the Management Board, Executive Vice President Head of Communication Solutions Business Group

I think so this is a good confirmation of our stand in 3G, the UMTS platform that we already shipping now for one and half year is also continuously shipping in Japan, success there is also quite nice. This delivers us a lot of stability in our capabilities of our 3G technology. So we believe that the HSDPA generation then will be quite stable as the UMTS that we currently ship.

My view: The conference call is clearly skirting around 3G chips and Apple.

Any thoughts? Is this reading too much into the call? No idea how to get an audio version if it exists, to hear any nuance.

iliketomac

Mar 23, 2008, 11:28 AM

t0mat0, thanks for the insight.... now HOPEFULLY Apple takes advantage of all this for the next iPhone version. :rolleyes:

t0mat0

Mar 23, 2008, 11:51 AM

t0mat0, thanks for the insight.... now HOPEFULLY Apple takes advantage of all this for the next iPhone version. :rolleyes:

The stats for the Hammerhead II chip (I need to find out if Hammerhead is II on the Infineon chip)
The chip was co designed with Global Locate. Where did they go? Got acquired by Broadcomm, which is creating the rival baseband SoC chip to Infineons... (the chip is now the BCM4750) (Other options include the SiRFstarIII).

The Hammerhead II chip is optimized for mobile devices requiring high performance, low power and an extremely small footprint. The diminutive single-die chip measures only 3.7mm x 3.6mm x 0.6 mm, for a total footprint of less than 14 mm², resulting in the world’s smallest GPS receiver.
Cost ~£5 a chip in quantity (or less).
"The GPS feature can now be added to any mobile device with a total electronics bill-of-materials footprint of less than 50 mm². It can deliver sensitivity to -160 dBm and position fix times as fast as 1 second.

The Nokia N95 has A-GPS. But bear in mind sporting equipment - e.g. the Forerunner 305 - It could take 30 sec to several minutes getting a lock. This might kick it's ass...

Bluetooth Heart Rate monitor - and bang, you've got a Forerunner 405 competitor.

Could this explain why there have been no announcements or leaks regarding Apple - SatNav company tie ins? If Apple already has A-GPS in it's next chipset, all they'd need was the mapping software (And Google maps could do that (who's to know they haven't been in secret making a personal navigation program?))

The Hammerhead II chip is currently available in sampling quantities, with mass-production scheduled for February 2007. It's in the TomTom One I believe.

NB: It's an optional module, not integrated. Thus they could provide it as a differentiator to make a range of iPhones.
"Support of connectivity modules such as Bluetooth, WLAN, A-GPS, DVB-H, FM Radio, etc."

iPhone Pro - Now with FM Radio, A-GPS, DVB link to the Apple TV...

As another aside - Just reading about the Flip camcorder through tehe David Pogue article -
"It has snagged a whopping 13% of the camcorder market." & It's been the best-selling camcorder on Amazon.com since the day of its debut.

"What's going on here? Having finally lived with the Flip, I finally know the answer: it's a blast. It's always ready, always with you, always trustworthy. Instead of crippling this "camcorder," the simplicity elevates it. Comparisons with a real camcorder are nonsensical, because the Flip is something else altogether: it's the video equivalent of a Kodak point-and-shoot camera. It's the very definition of "less is more."

It has TV resolution (640x480 pixels, 30 fps with softer images than you'd get with a real camcorder.)

That kind of resolution comes from a forward facing cam on 3G mobiles these days.... Linking in to the ooh look what the US has to look forward to once it gets 3G thread.

IndyJonez

Mar 24, 2008, 05:50 PM

Hello all. I just registered mainly to keep up with this thread for now. You all's information on all the chipsets coming and going facinates me.;)

t0mat0

Mar 25, 2008, 04:53 AM

Hello all. I just registered mainly to keep up with this thread for now. You all's information on all the chipsets coming and going facinates me.;)

We only cover a few! hehe

http://www.southparkstudios.com/ They're putting all South Park episodes out for free and clips. And they have this nice picture if you don't have Flash running :D

http://www.iphonesavior.com/2008/02/iphone-spoof-go.html

dayton

Mar 25, 2008, 12:23 PM

The awful thing about 3G is many networks will not allow you to fall back on GPRS/EDGE, which they should do.

Speaking from an AT&T 3G users perspective, my phone (Samsung SGH-A707) has always gracefully fallen back to EDGE if I leave 3G range. On top of that my connection speeds are really fast when in 3G areas. I'm really on the fence with this. I really want an iPhone, but I don't want to buy one if a 3G version is coming in the near future.

I was in an Apple Store last Friday playing with the iPhone and decided to turn off the WiFi to actually play with the EDGE network. It reminded me of being back in the dial-up days when accessing "normal" Web pages. My Samsung with Opera Mini could load these pages in about 1/4 of the time. iPhone-optimized pages worked pretty well, though. It would seem to me that 3G is a must for Japan and some other countries with no EDGE fallback.

Like many, I'm hanging on every rumor, but every time I walk into an Apple Store, the chances get better that I will walk out with an iPhone, 3G or not.

t0mat0

Mar 25, 2008, 06:47 PM

Will haptic tech be a differentiator between a new iPhone line up?
Immersion Corporation is the company I believe ( I need to recheck) that's helped Samsung announce the SCH-W420 (SPH-W4200) haptic touch-screen phone in South Korea (S. Korea hearts Samsung. Remember the bung stories of old?)
Just a thought. Front screen cam, higher cam res, haptic sense. Any more potential differentiators?
In terms of dates, maybe a Apple sized shed load order of touch screens/haptic tech will be leaked sometime?

t0mat0

Mar 26, 2008, 04:57 AM

iPod Observer:

"Apple may have ordered a second round of 10 million iPhones based on the 3G network, according to Gartner analyst Ken Dulaney. Mr. Dulaney, who follows the iPhone for the research firm, based that on rumors he's become aware of in Asia.

In a phone interview, Mr. Dulaney told the iPod Observer that he believes Apple has ordered a second round, amounting to 10 million more units, based on what he's heard in Asian circles. This is in addition to the ten million first generation iPhones that Apple has said it will sell by the end of 2008.

Mr. Dulaney also speculated that that the so-called 3G iPhone will use an Organic Light Emitting Diode (OLED) display in the new iPhone. That would lead to a thinner phone and lower power consumption.

It was also surmised by Mr. Dulaney that Apple didn't do as well as it expected in Europe with the 2.7G/EDGE network phone, hence the big movement to the 3G network iPhone."

Infineon's Earnings calls might be right/tie in with this after all.

Pity the page 1 rumour had to use the Front facing iPhone rumour (that was beliieved wrong and erroneous when put up :( )

More as I can find :)

Gartner Research & Ken Dulaney
Gartner was involved in the rather large reversal (though in a way fair reversal) of opinion

7/2/2007

Question: Is the iPhone enterprise-ready?
Dulaney: I think the bottom line is that it is a tremendous innovation on the consumer side. In the business sector there are other issues that come up that need to be investigated. Will work in a business context? It is not considered to be by us. The security is weak. Their VPN is PPTP, which is outmoded today and vulnerable. Many people go with SSL or IPSec which are much better. The method of accessing Exchange is pretty rudimentary. It uses IMAP or an Outlook Web access front end to get to Exchange. Most companies do not want to get into email that way. In fact, the Outlook Web access front end most often is encapsulated in something that Apple does not offer support for. Users may have to redirect to the ISP where it synchs up with email. Enterprises will be concerned about that because it puts email in an unsecured location. Also, Apple is making users sign up for an iTunes account. The question is whether that is something corporations want to do.

Question: It sounds like they are paying little attention to the enterprise and bypassing, at least now, a potentially lucrative market.
Dulaney: Frankly I will tell you if I was making a phone today I would not give a damn about business because the consumer market is far bigger. If they want to get into enterprise, they have to create a different model with different characteristics. One of the reasons MACs are not accepted is because [companies] always insist on disaster recovery. If HP goes belly up, they want to be able to go to Dell, etc. They want their phones arrangements to be structured in the same way. There is not that option here. It's a perennial Achilles' heel for Apple. Corporations like its products, but won't deploy them if they don't feel safe.

Question: So what are you telling your clients?
Dulaney: What we do is start off with a framework. There are three support levels. One is the platform level. That means when you buy the device and put apps on it, you can do pretty much what you want to do, like on a PC or notebook. Apple is not in that class yet. The second level is the appliance level. That is narrowed down to email, browsing, telephony, PIM. You need an email gateway to RIM, Good Technology, etc. They have not announced that, but they could probably get into that in the next six months or year. The third level the concierge level. If, say, a company is forced to support something by the CEO, then they can provide the concierge level. It's like a hotel: You hire people to do the work. It's expensive but they do it for you. Today we say that the iPhone is at the concierge level.

[I'd say with the SDk they're at Level 1 ;) ]

Question: What does this mean at the practical level?
Dulaney: When someone calls IT to get help on iPhone, they should not take that call because it is not something they can take on today. If IT responds it's implied that they are making sure it's secure, manageable, etc. You can't promise that with the iPhone today.

Question: What about the future?
Dulaney: What we said in the note is that IT should get the device and start to use it. [If it gains appliance level status] at some point in time, IT will have to figure out what to do.

Question: For it to change levels, would Apple have to take any steps?
Dulaney: Apple would have to cooperate to make available tools these companies need to put on their gateways and test. I don't see any scenario where they reach the platform level. [They could aim at the appliance level, so] we are telling companies to keep abreast. That means answer questions on how to link to e-mail, etc.

Question: What about the iTunes requirement. It seems unlikely businesses would go for that. Do you think Apple would drop it?
Dulaney: They might depend on how badly they want to get into the business. They don't tell anyone anything. What they basically want us to do is try to interpolate facts, and come back to them and enable them to say you're wrong. It makes it difficult when everything is kept so secret. The inclination of humans to speculate, and they can say no, that's wrong.
http://www.itbusinessedge.com/item/?ci=30495

Also: "That's one reason that Avi Greengart, principal analyst for mobile devices at Current Analysis, also thinks the iPhone won't be a good option for enterprise customers. Apple has said that the iPhone will run on an OS X-based operating system and told Greengart that businesses won't be able to write applications for the phone, he said. "Companies like to extend corporate apps to the mobile space and in order to do that you need an open OS," he said. Mobile operating system developers like Windows, Symbian and BlackBerry enable third parties to write applications based on their software."
18 March 2008 They changed their tune:
"Gartner Changes Its Enterprise iPhone Recommendations"
In what can only be described as a stunning reversal, Gartner research now says the iPhone will be great for business users once the 2.0 firmware is released.

According to InfoWorld, Ken Dulaney, vice president and senior analyst at Gartner research said, “the release of firmware 2.0 changes that, enabling enterprises to develop local code and create applications that do not depend on network capabilities.”

"Before, it said the iPhone wasn’t business-friendly, but today, the firm grants it “appliance-level” status, meaning that with the upcoming enterprise-friendly iPhone 2.0 update, it’ll officially be safe enough—and functional enough—for hardcore suit-wearers.
"By licensing Exchange ActiveSync and exposing its basic security policies, enterprises can provide sufficient security for iPhone during Exchange personal information manager and e-mail use," said Dulaney.
We journalists tend to think of Gartner as a good place for stats and opinions, but IT honchos look to the company for guidance on how to spend their multimillion-dollar budgets. In this case, Gartner explains its decision in terms that IT buyers will appreciate: blockquote Appliance-level status permits the iPhone to be used for PIM, e-mail, telephony and browsing applications. It also permits the device to be used for other dedicated functions where the software is supplied by a third party, functionality is kept to a restricted set, the software supplier offers support for a backup platform and IT development resources are not needed to program custom code locally residing on the device.

But this here’s the deathblow, dealt by Gartner vice president and distinguished analyst Ken Dulaney:

The iPhone will thus match up initially in several segments against its main smartphone competitors—BlackBerry, Windows Mobile and Symbian Series 60"

"The CrackPhone's gonna take on the CrackBerry :)
Dulaney:
www.gartner.com/AnalystBiography?authorId=3855
Ken is Gartner's VP so he should know something about phones :)
He's a research in field including Mobile & Wireless
Deloitte and Touche, Senior Analyst, 3 years
Recognized by Adweek magazine in 2002 as one of the top 20 technology industry analysts.
B.S., industrial engineering, Northwestern University
Completed post-graduate courses in industrial engineering at the University of Michigan
16 years at Gartner, 36 years IT industry

[B]OLED info

The First OLED Phone To Hit US Stores -Nokia 6215i: Sep 6 2006
The Frist OLED Phone - BenQ-Siemens S88,
Brighter colours
Use less energy than LED
Better contrast ratios
Better viewing angle (Nearly 180 degrees with a competely symmetrical cone)
Brightness, contrast and colour balance doesn’t change with viewing angle (as the OLED is an inherently emissive display so there is no light being manipulated through the depths of the display)
OLED displays require no backlighting
Fast switching / refresh rates, which means they are good for video.
The best active-matrix models can display nearly 4x as many colours as equivalent-size LCDs can reproduce.
They're also thin !

gadgetfreaky

Mar 26, 2008, 12:56 PM

So if this rumor is true and its launching very soon--which chip will they be using? Infineon?

t0mat0

Mar 26, 2008, 02:00 PM

So if this rumor is true and its launching very soon--which chip will they be using? Infineon?

Most probably. Broadcomm might have it in the 3rd generation, but Intel will have closed the gap come 2009 with Menlow or equivalent. All Intel needs to do is get their mobile chips less powerhungry.

parham55

Mar 27, 2008, 10:06 AM

Justinerator

Mar 27, 2008, 06:52 PM

Digg founder Kevin Rose, whose previous story you can read here, has posted an interesting update on Twitter.
It says: “another person confirming iPhone rumours w/me (high level VP at a big company that works w/Apple) - “it will ship in June w/3G and GPS” ”

anything else? I would imagine the next version of the iphone will have better camera capabilities as well... What do you think t0mat0?

t0mat0

Mar 27, 2008, 07:22 PM

anything else? I would imagine the next version of the iphone will have better camera capabilities as well... What do you think t0mat0?

My main comment is on the Kevin Rose thread. Basically he made a shoddy video, with a clueless companion beside him.

He gave no backing, and he was simply reiterating a bland rumour, with no backing. He got the previous generation woefully wrong. Maybe Phil Schiller thought it wise to talk to him.

Doesn't really matter, as it's old news anyhow :D
June shipping, 3G and GPS is feasable, but not necessarily happening. When the next generation comes out it will definitely have 3G, and i see no reason why one version should not have GPS - As mentioned earlier - the chips cost a few dollars at the most. If you're buying 10 million? You're laughing at the bulk buy cost.
GPS isn't a deal breaker anyhow, as said above - if it's not inside, the SDK will sure as hell make it possible for an add on GPS dongle/GPS car charger that has GPS built in to work.

What I find interesting is the Nike info on the patent - either Nike have moved away from Apple, or they're still friends - hard to tell as Nike Plus has been mothballed it seems.. As speculated before, we could easily see Bluetooth Heart rate monitors to link in with a sport app through the iPhone - clearly Apple sees that the iPhone is ok in the gym, and the app potential is large. Choose your music by bpm, have a better version of the Nike Plus running info.
as said before, the iPhone now is seeing convergent rivals crop up - it could, with a decent GPS chip, rival the Forerunner or similar - You pop the iPhone in your backpack, and it could record position, or give directions like the Edge by Garmin. It could have SatNav potential. All sorts of things really.

The mark up of the dongle will probably be affected by whether someone can make a low cost app to drive it - the SiRF StarII or Hammerhead chips are cheap as chips and prototypes are knocked up already.

So GPS in some form & 3G definitely in the new iPHone, which i'd peg as say 50% ship in June, 25% announce in June, 25% ship July-August time at the moment.

IndyJonez

Mar 28, 2008, 08:06 AM

anything else? I would imagine the next version of the iphone will have better camera capabilities as well... What do you think t0mat0?

To be honest, I'd much rather have a 5+ megapixel camera added with maybe 3-5x optical zoom and video capabilities than built in gps.

I like tOmatO's idea with having a gps 'dongle'. I think built in gps would make the iphone more thick than people like and would drain the battery very quickly. A dongle with its own dedicated power source, maybe a docking charge station or maybe even a couple AA's would be better IMHO.

=P

gadgetfreaky

Mar 28, 2008, 11:19 AM

To be honest, I'd much rather have a 5+ megapixel camera added with maybe 3-5x optical zoom and video capabilities than built in gps.

I like tOmatO's idea with having a gps 'dongle'. I think built in gps would make the iphone more thick than people like and would drain the battery very quickly. A dongle with its own dedicated power source, maybe a docking charge station or maybe even a couple AA's would be better IMHO.

=P
Well everyone wants different things in their phone. I'd prefer GPS just cuz I get lost easy and it's easier to include than a big camera.

But the reports today now are Gartner is backing away from their comments ...Boy Gartner has really deteriorated. Kind of a bad call.

Monkaaay

Mar 28, 2008, 12:15 PM

I'm definitely thinking we'll see a 3G iPhone this June with the release of the iPhone SDK. With the new Apps to download and use, it only makes sense to do that on your new 3G driven phone.

CreativeMac

Mar 28, 2008, 03:41 PM

I'm definitely thinking we'll see a 3G iPhone this June with the release of the iPhone SDK. With the new Apps to download and use, it only makes sense to do that on your new 3G driven phone.

I agree. It just seems like common sense.

My Prediction:

WWDC iPhone v2 announcement
3G
Front Camera under glass like the proximity sensor
Possibly GPS
New Design
Newly done interface - based off same iPhone OS but different look

What do you guys think?

kdarling

Mar 28, 2008, 03:58 PM

I've worked for companies selling multi-thousand dollar items, who left off an LED simply because it added a dollar to the cost at the time. Every penny counts.

In other words, just because a chip (say, GPS) costs a tiny amount or not, that's not what matters. What matters to Apple is whether or not they think it will cause enough extra sales.

It's the same reason they left off 3G to begin with. They simply figured they could sell enough without it. (Again, if they'd gone with Verizon, the phone would've had a 3G version to start with.)

ZodiacfreaK

Mar 28, 2008, 04:06 PM

There are a lot of reasons for / against why apple did it. But one thing for sure is that the iPhone Pro should have it and GPS.

t0mat0

Mar 29, 2008, 06:23 AM

So
- Garner backtracks and clarifies
- Bank or America gets up to the prediction plate.
- The Commercial Times reports Hon Hai is competing to make the next iPhone (via MarketWatch).

Gartner:
Gartner - last Thursday: Backtracking on Ken Dulaney's comments reported by the iPod Observer. Bob Hafner, Dulaney's boss disagrees with the original article.

Gartner doesn't know whether Apple has actually placed an order but believes it'll have 3G. No big shakes there. However, Gartner DOES expect OLED. Yay! (They are seriously cool - think about it - the screen is a vital part ofthe iPhone - so why not pimp it out?)

Bank of America
Apple is expected to launch a high-speed wireless version of iPhone in the second quarter and to produce as many as 8 million in 3Q. (Prediction in a research report about the phone from Bank of America analyst Scott Craig.)

"Our latest channel checks point to a significant production build of a 3G iPhone beginning in the month of June after a initial small build in May," he said in a note to clients.

Craig expects production volume to be much higher than his previous estimates. He said Apple planned to build more than 3 million high-speed iPhones in May followed by more than 8 million in the third quarter of the year.

Craig, who had previously estimated 8 million iPhone units for the whole of 2008, said that was starting to look conservative unless some of the plans were pushed back.

Current Analysis analyst Avi Greengart said that Apple would likely bring out its high-speed iPhone in June around the time it is expected to launch an upgrade to iPhone software.

Order already or bidding still?
Rumors are that there are already orders, others that there's still bidding.

Dow Jones reports that Hon Hai will produce the second generation of the iPhone, but get this the quote is that it's described as a "more advanced version" Wowa!! ;)

Would Apple go so far in preserving privacy, as to circumvent the need to file FCC documentation for the US version of the device by launching it outside the US first? Hehe. That or they put a small order out for demo models?

is competing to make Apple's new version of its third-generation iPhone, the Commercial Times reported Friday without citing sources.
If Hon Hai wins the order, it could ship an extra 10 million handsets a year, the Chinese-language paper said. It didn't name the other companies interested in Apple's order.

Dagless

Mar 29, 2008, 09:39 AM

I agree. It just seems like common sense.

My Prediction:

WWDC iPhone v2 announcement
3G
Front Camera under glass like the proximity sensor
Possibly GPS
New Design
Newly done interface - based off same iPhone OS but different look

What do you guys think?

No iPhone 2 announcement
3G
Possibly 32gb or at least price cut on current models
Maybe GPS. Apple have shown interest with the "locate me" button, and it doesn't work too great (the crosshair was the size of the city I was in).
No redesign
No change to interface

3G would allow iPhone users to access the iTunes store away from Wifi connections which gives Apple a bigger market. I think this will coincide with the app store too.

TBH I just cant imagine anything big happening for the June release except maybe, maaaybbbe 3G and/or a price cut.

PodHead

Mar 29, 2008, 10:18 AM

I guess you also want Crysis to run on your iPhone?

Keeping it short you want:
-32 Gb;
-3G;
-Video-recording (I assume 5 Mp camera)
-And able to run PSP games.

A cellphone with 30 minutes of lifetime, wow.

About the 3G only coming out in Q3 2008, it is an almost proved rumor that the iPhone will reach the Portuguese market this March and we don't have EDGE either... we have ony 3G and GPRS.

Wow, I agree. What planet did he say he was from? These are about as unrealistic as I have read on this forum.:confused:

kdarling

Mar 29, 2008, 10:26 AM

There are a lot of reasons for / against why apple did it. (no 3G in first model) But one thing for sure is that the iPhone Pro should have it and GPS.

I agree. But again, everything's about cost versus sale-ability.

So the reason I think they'll have GPS, is because 3G alone won't be enough to make it highly desirable as an upgrade to many people. Neither will an OLED screen... unless it increases the battery life quite a lot.

So they'll need to spice up the offering with GPS or perhaps a forward-facing camera for video calls, or both.

Video ... hard to tell. Although ATT offers one-way video calls and incoming TV shows on other phones, I'm not sure they'd love their network being crammed wtih iPhone owners video'ing each other :eek:

Google is really into location based services. So they would press for GPS. Plus it probably would give Apple more income due to kickbacks for searches.

3247

Mar 29, 2008, 03:26 PM

"Support of connectivity modules such as Bluetooth, WLAN, A-GPS, DVB-H, FM Radio, etc."
iPhone Pro - Now with FM Radio, A-GPS, DVB link to the Apple TV...The main problem with terrestrial radio is that there are so many standards to implement if you want it to work anywhere in the world: FM, DAB, DAB+, DRM+, FMeXtra, HD Radio, DVB-T. And that's only VHF and L band, it does not even include SW/MW/LW services.

Terrestrial TV isn't better: DVB-T, DVB-H, DMB, ISDB-T, 1seg, ATSC. (At least, you can probably forget about the analogue formats PAL, NTSC, SECAM.)

IndyJonez

Mar 29, 2008, 11:15 PM

Dow Jones reports that Hon Hai will produce the second generation of the iPhone, but get this the quote is that it's described as a "more advanced version" Wowa!! ;).

Veeeewy intwesting
:D

t0mat0

Mar 31, 2008, 07:35 AM

iphonewiz

Mar 31, 2008, 09:26 AM

3G iPhone
2.0 iPhone Firmareware release
SDK Official release

Things lookin really good!

gadgetfreaky

Mar 31, 2008, 12:32 PM

So now the June date is Front page :)
Ain't nothing wrong with them taking there time, but rehashing old stories is a bit lame (that and not giving a decent background).

Anyhow, is good reading after being away for a few days.

Anyone who said it would be late this year or next fancy commenting?

3G def, GPS def (doesn't have to be integrated - Apple could easily do a iPhone certified GPS dongle sale strategy), new screen.

10 weeks to go...

I've got a question that has been perplexing me after reading about continued battery problems plaguing the Blackberry 9000...supposedly they can't get battery life above 4 hours of talk time and 2 hours of even wi-fi browsing on the 3g handset.

Same problem of course prevented apple from launching the Iphone with 3g--battery life.

So my big question is, i've had a sprint treo 700P with 3g (CDMA of course) now for 2 years and the battery life is 4+ hours. How is it that is so hard for these guys to have 3g 2-3 years later?

Is it they are laying on WiFi so that drains power? If so, why don't these guys just have 3g Data+ GPS and forget about the Wifi.

Is it that CDMA has better chipsets? If so, then they would have just picked Verizon or Sprint for the Iphone and why not Bbery have 3g models with big screens etc on Cdma carriers.

-----------> Obviously a guy who needs a cool new phone and can't wait to get a 3g iphone

t0mat0

Apr 2, 2008, 12:04 PM

I've got a question that has been perplexing me after reading about continued battery problems plaguing the Blackberry 9000...supposedly they can't get battery life above 4 hours of talk time and 2 hours of even wi-fi browsing on the 3g handset. <snip> So my big question is, i've had a sprint treo 700P with 3g (CDMA of course) now for 2 years and the battery life is 4+ hours. How is it that is so hard for these guys to have 3g 2-3 years later?

Battery size/strength,3G data rate, 3G usage, signal strength, level of signal boosting... Mostly down to what you're doing with it and for how long I imagine.

Just a side thought about the current shortages: Apple's giving stock preferentially to co-distributors (your AT&T, O2, Carphone Warehouse etc).
What I imagine is happening (bar Easter bad stocking) is a slow down in production. As the overhead between amount shipping and demand gets narrower, there are more delays in getting the iPhones out to the customers.
Apple doesn't want excess v1 stock when it announces the new version - they want to have just enough to tide over to sell to those who want to buy between the announcement and the new phone shipping.

sweetice2007

Apr 2, 2008, 01:20 PM

t0mat0

Apr 2, 2008, 06:28 PM

has the date been confirmed??

When you feel the ground moving on any given Tuesday - that's the Apple fanboys jumping up and down in glee...

"an AT&T lunch, and AT&T Mobility CEO Ralph de la Vega just dropped some meaty bits. He had mentioned earlier in the event that he expected all of their smart integrated devices to be 3G in the next couple months. Sascha Segan from PC Mag asked it that included the iPhone. De la Vega responded, "Let me repeat what I said: I think that you're going to see our integrated devices be 3G devices in the not-too-distant future, and I mean months. That should be clear enough." Cue fanboy 3G fever! [Giz at CTIA 2008]"

extraextra

Apr 2, 2008, 08:15 PM

I've got a question that has been perplexing me after reading about continued battery problems plaguing the Blackberry 9000...supposedly they can't get battery life above 4 hours of talk time and 2 hours of even wi-fi browsing on the 3g handset.

Same problem of course prevented apple from launching the Iphone with 3g--battery life.

So my big question is, i've had a sprint treo 700P with 3g (CDMA of course) now for 2 years and the battery life is 4+ hours. How is it that is so hard for these guys to have 3g 2-3 years later?

Is it they are laying on WiFi so that drains power? If so, why don't these guys just have 3g Data+ GPS and forget about the Wifi.

Is it that CDMA has better chipsets? If so, then they would have just picked Verizon or Sprint for the Iphone and why not Bbery have 3g models with big screens etc on Cdma carriers.

Sprint doesn't have extensive coverage across America and Apple offered the iPhone to Verizon, who rejected it because they didn't want to comply with Apple's terms.

I think the full screen also takes up quite a bit of battery, even with the autobrightness.

WiFi is faster than 3G and is useful if it's available.

Also, battery drain is more critical for the iPhone, since you can't swap out a battery for a spare one or anything like that in an emergency.

t0mat0

Apr 2, 2008, 08:45 PM

So we might have:
- iTunes written in Cocoa.
- Serious use of Core Animation in programs?
- A sneak peek at the new OS XI?
- SDK Goodness (suprise GPS info, LBS from Google)

More specifically for the iPhone
- GPS car charger/holders
- GPS dongles
- New accessories if there's a shape change
-Apps...

IndyJonez

Apr 3, 2008, 09:16 PM

http://seekingalpha.com/article/71081-buzz-on-the-second-coming-of-the-iphone?source=etrade

:D

Emulsion

Apr 3, 2008, 09:29 PM

http://seekingalpha.com/article/71081-buzz-on-the-second-coming-of-the-iphone?source=etrade

:D

It's the Jesus Phone.

t0mat0

Apr 6, 2008, 04:33 AM

Wirelessly posted (NokiaN73-1/4.0726.2.0.1 Series60/3.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1)

So with Walt giving a 60 day timer i.e. after the keynote in early June 2Q looks a good bet now :)
will analyse more when i have net access

t0mat0

Apr 8, 2008, 12:25 PM

The front page refuting the FCC myth provides some more interesting possibilities -
If Apple needs 6-8 weeks for FCC ruling - we could hear an announcement some time round 28th April, if it was a 9th June release date to the shops.

Apple is having a Q2 Earnings Call a few days before (April 23rd), and also it seems that Apple hasn't made any significant order for flash NAND yet this year. Their order would be a big clue as to their expected size order of Touchs and new iPhones. Investors have a right to ask some specific questions in terms of shortages, short term forecasts of sales, new models, lack of 3G chips etc. Would Apple want to make an announcement *before then* ?

The scarcity of iPhones in some locations in the US is interesting, and from what I gather, it's like Apple is stuck in a catch 22 - Overseas (including grey market sales) are showing large demand for the iPhone. Apple had previously been put down as tapering off production coming up to June - it seems they got the estimate of demand out a bit. In all fairness to them - it took Apple years before they were shipping iPods in the sorts of numbers they've been shipping iPhones.Channel inventory management aside - if they were tapering off, the margins for error get tighter, and it's harder to move stock around shops rather than just order more in to the specific depleted stock rooms.

Those saying that a 3G iPhone buzz would tamper sales seem to be being proven wrong. Apple could easily ship earlier (use the NAND in hand so to speak for a small May run, then have the new NAND order in May, to bulk ship in June)...

The anticipation's better than for Christmas :D

heyp

Apr 8, 2008, 03:23 PM

SFC Archer

Apr 8, 2008, 04:10 PM

rockstarjoe

Apr 8, 2008, 04:13 PM

http://seekingalpha.com/article/71081-buzz-on-the-second-coming-of-the-iphone?source=etrade

:D

Thanks for posting... that was an interesting read, especially this part:

"Another reason to guess earlier are a series of whispers floating around Silicon Valley, often attributed to Cupertino sources. Three times in the past week I’ve heard that faint buzz. “It’s coming sooner.” The source of one of the three claims cited direct conversations with engineers involved in the project. So… April? May? June? …. Sooner than later seems to be the best bet of the moment."

This is my belief lately too, that they are going to release it before June. It just seems like everything is starting to point to an imminent release, but it is too soon for things like stock to be drying up if they are waiting until June.

guruji

Apr 8, 2008, 04:38 PM

i read the details of this chip; based on that, in ver.2 we will get:

bluetooth stereo headphones.
improved camera, 5mp???
video recording
& better video playback (HD)
better/more_eff/fast multitasking
more resolution on screen
and min. capacity: 16GB

& of course
faster net access

black phone will 'be' little bigger then v1, but wont look so.

modit

Apr 8, 2008, 07:36 PM

To qoute the article and the developments:

"The folks at ZiPhone spotted some code in the brand new 2.0 beta iPhone firmware that could point to the chip to be used in the upcoming 3G iPhone. The code makes mention of "SGOLD3," which could very well refer to Infineon's followup chip to the S-GOLD2 which powers the current iPhone. Infineon's less fancy name for the S-GOLD3H chip is the PMB8878, a 7.2Mbps HSDPA chip with all the video acceleration and media playback features iPhone users have come to expect. Advantages over its predecessor include higher resolution camera support (5 megapixels instead of 2), a 2x speed MMC / SD interface and DVB-H module support, but that doesn't necessarily mean any of those specs will end up in the ensuing iPhone 3G -- S-GOLD2 has plenty of features the current iPhone doesn't take advantage of. The processor speed, however, remains the same."
http://www.engadget.com/2008/04/08/iphone-3gs-baseband-chip-revealed/

Just talked about that in my pervious thread

Word for word.

Also I wrote in my thread that Rogers just announced today that it gonna roll out Canada's next generation wireless network in Halifax and Moncton to become the first cities in the Western Hemisphere to commercially offer 7.2 Mbps wireless services, making mobile download speeds the fastest in the country and in the top 5% worldwide. Expected to expand soon.
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/a.../08/c3210.html

Suspicious smoke leads to a fire in June? You think so or is this just more speculation :confused:

t0mat0

Apr 9, 2008, 12:34 PM

More pointers to June
No Flash order yet this year
Interestingly, China, which is presumably a potentially huge (grey) market wouldn't be using the iPhone as much for the internet (due to the Great Chinese firewall...) but other reasons (interface, other functionality).

Infineon's most probably got the deal for v2.0 hardware iPhone
Courtesy of ZiPhone. http://i27.tinypic.com/15o759x.png shows it isn't a slip up or typo- it's pointing to the SGold2 in the line above.
It's what you'd expect - if they were to have the SGold 3, you'd have to distinguish between them as they have different capabilities.

It'll be interesting to see if any capabilities of the original phones "come online" (Video recording for example).

The X-GOLDTM 608 = PMB 8878 = S-Gold 3H
As said before, the Infineon mobile multimedia platform (MP-EH) supports:
Bluetooth stereo headphones.
Camera up to 5Mp
Video recording
Imprved video playback
A higher resolution screen (OLED ftw)
HSDPA data rates of up to 7.2Mbps
GSM, EDGE, GPRS and WCDMA cellular networks
Power management chip SM-Power3
RF transceiver SMARTi 3GE
Six-band WCDMA and quad-band EDGE RF transceiver
Bluemoon UniCellular chip for Bluetooth
Assisted-GPS positioning single-chip named Hammerhead
WLAN low power chip dubbed Wildcard LP

Vinom

Apr 9, 2008, 01:38 PM

I have a couple of "connected" tech friends in the industry and one friend told me that as of about 10 days ago or so, regarding the motherboard for the iPhone hardware version 2, "the chips haven't been taped out yet" and that they were supposed to have gotten it done around that time (beginning of April). Once the chips are taped out and burned (presumably now completed) they have to test them, sign off on them, manufacture them, design and create the packaging for the chip, finalize design on the iPhone, then start actual production. According to my friend, Steve Jobs still wants this done by the end of June. However, based upon any realistic laws of production cycles and realistic expectations, August looks much more realistic for a release date.

I would expect an announcement of iPhone hardware version 2 at WWDC and the actual release a couple of months later.

t0mat0

Apr 9, 2008, 01:51 PM

With such an unexpectedly strong grey market for the current iPhone, I don't that will impact too much. Bar the steam produced from some fan boys ;)
Would the chips have been under contract to be made at a certain point? If it's late its late I guess that'd give the US some more time to get along with upgrading from EDGE...
It's not unreasonable there could be a hitch - if the v1 iPhone's history is any indication - they were slamming doors, and pulling teeth/hair on that right till it was demoed. All Steve Jobs has to do is change Shipping Now to Shipping in ... x Weeks. Heck, both Leopard and the SDK were put out slightly after initial expectations. Sooner the better for customer and Apple I imagine.

t0mat0

Apr 15, 2008, 08:17 PM

I'm hear, just not wanting to get the wrath of macrumor staff by having too many consecutive posts without good reason. They might see it as bumping this thread.

It's been quiet really - O2's price cut, the Germany deal - they're trying to get rid of 8Gb stock. Apple's sold it on to them in bulk, and I guess they knew they were against the clock before 16 and 32Gb become the de facto iPhone sizes.
An announcement of the next iPhone by June 10th is *very* likely (90%)
The likelihood of shipping in quantity goes up pretty fast as the days move on from late June to July.

As for me i've been looking at the iPhone's SDK, and believe me, it's impressive. More later :)

Edit - Vinom hasn't got back to me to clarify his above statement.
But reread page 6 - Infineon's stated position at the time of their most recent earnings call:

e.g.
"I can announce today that we will begin shipments of our X-GOLD 208 90 nanometer base band formally called the s-Gold 3 to LG in the first half of 2008"
"You will see that we will be announcing also next generation platform for HSDPA, HSUPA for the first half of this year. And as already mentioned the ramp up of the HSDPA platform we expect to happen in the first half of this calendar year. So I think this is good prediction and this will certainly be one...more than one customer ramping the HSDPA platform"

Well, till another update - i'll leave you with a quote i heard on the radio. I didn't catch the exact wording, but its sentiment was that people can sometimes undervalue new technology as they judge it through the lens of the current paradigms. Will see if i can dig out the quote I wrote down.

One example - Bonjour networking. Available to every iPhone application available to connect to nearby iPhones running the app. Now far be it for me to say that means Jobs would let illegal music sharing. So lets imagine the possibilities of being able to automatically share music you've rated 5 that doesn't have DRM on. And to receive tunes rated 5 by other people. Matt Drance is sliiiightly scary, but it was worth watching that particular video...

corrado7

Apr 15, 2008, 09:25 PM

3 Countries recieve current iPhone in March add 2 Months = May
Steve announces iPhone 2 June 9th, add 6-8 weeks (FCC) = August
Release of SDK 2.0 and App Store end of June, add 2 Months to let newness wear off and more sales of current iPhone, empties current stock = August

If another country recieves the current iPhone add another 2 months (believe there is one that was just announced but cant remember who)

Soonest release August
I still predict October for the Xmas Holiday Season

There will NOT be GPS, Flash or MMS on iPhone 2 (IMO)

sorry but your opinion fails to take in consideration the target of at least 10 mil units to be sold this year. Any delay and the stock price will fall

this is very important for shareholders as it will drive price up... SJ knows this and the main purpose of a business is to make $$$ for the shareholders.

you are simply just speculating based on info pulled out of air. no personal knowledge no hard data... sorry to burst your bubble there, but the iphone will come a lot sooner taking in consideration what i said above

t0mat0

Apr 16, 2008, 06:20 AM

From 9to5mac:
"The Apple news web's still reeling at the lack of any big deal announcements from the mothership Tuesday, this blackout likely reflects the company's customary radio silence in the days before it makes its quarterly financial results public (on 23 April). "

The quarterly will probably spill some beans. But if it would, you've always got the 22 April, a Tuesday to announce other things (not everythings Tuesday related I know).

Hopefully some pertinent questions will come. FLASH purchases, expected and delivered iPhone sales, 3G plans, new model plans etc etc.

It's background busy at the moment i'd say - the number of product lines overdue a refresh is growing to a large number, you've got very frequent developer builds hinting an update to Leopard, you've got the quiet announcement that Apple is collaborating with Nike still (which is a huge thing in my book - Nike's been very quiet since Nike+ in relation to Apple), you've got Webkit hitting a 100% Acid test score (and it rocks in terms of speed (3x faster on Safari on a PC than on my copy of Firefox in terms of some test scores)) that'll wind it's way to the iPhone 2.0 and give lots more animation capabilities that are easy to code.
The number of Apple employees working on touch has been steadily expanding - is the lack of a refresh of monitors a portent to something? http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=1569
There was a job listing for handwriting recognition (hint to iTablet, and possible stylus interaction?).
Other moves afoot include work towards a possible significant strategic acquisition or acquisitions, suggested by the hire of HP's leading legal corporate buyout specialist, Charles Charnas to lead its corporate epartment, filling a role that hasn't been occupied for 7 years. He'll oversee Apple's intellectual property and strategic acquisitions. (he led the $25 billion merger between Compaq and HP.) (and no it ain't Dell in the sights). Another sign of work in the background by Apple is the no-show at NAB. Apple might be hamstrung by Intel's public timeframes, but it makes all the rest it can.
It might be in a slightly unexpected way - just as Fingerworks brought in a fair deal of patents, Apple might want to carve out an IP section of the market. Gates hints Microsofts definitely going and making a strong voice based system. The possibilities that developers have through the SDK is amazing - (and also cool to see how it all works through vieiwing some of the demos' code). The positive halo the SDK will bring will be large, if it's secure and the signed app system works. Through the Interface Builder you could do a huge amount of groundwork for your own personal app - and easily open it up for collaborative coding (though I haven't seen the group management side of Xcode etc, the creation of savepoints seems very useful).

I need to check my agreement/NDA through using the ADC developer stuff for the iPhone. I'd recommend actually signing up just to have a look at the materials - a lot of people for example were unsure why it took so long to get out the SDK (or not have the Interface Builder from day 1) or why Apple said no background apps - if you look at the video guides, they give good reasons for it - it's all very well documented, and the support (technical guides, help, actual programs available (e.g. debugger, realtime analysis of your app etc) are good.

t0mat0

Apr 16, 2008, 11:27 AM

It's fun to sidetrack from the thread's title, but here's a predictive view of the Buyer's Guide - if there weren't refreshes before June 9/10th:

On June 10th (~55 odd days away)
Days Since Update
iPod classic 224+55= 279 (Avg = 238)
iPod touch 71+55= 126 (Avg = 153)
iPod nano 224+55= 279 (Avg = 268)
Mac mini 253+55= 305 (Avg = 188)
iMac 253+55= 305 (Avg = 205)
iPhone 71=55= 126 (Avg = 111)
LCDs 378+55= 433 (Avg = 230)

Thinking more about apps on the iPhone - although they are billed to be able to used in a quick manner - I'd imagine Apple is having to work out what to do about what could be a greater usage and greater demand on the battery life of the iPhone.

Macsteins recent rumour of diversification of the iPhone line up is not really a rumour - it's pretty much accepted there will be a broadening of the choices of iPhone. Would a 3G iPhone need to be bigger to conceal a larger battery to deal with 3G?

I kinda scoff at the thought of 3G being seen as a "premium model" option though.

In other news - When did Apple sign up United Microelectronics Corporation (UMC) to create the Infineon 3G baseband chip?

"Later reports confirm the company has been asked to produce Infineon Technologies' 3G baseband chip, which will be used in the new Apple iPhone that supports 3G."
Asked to produce now, rather than producing them full tilt now ? :|
"UMC will be the foundry to produce Infineon Technoloiges' 3G baseband chip, which will be used in the new Apple iPhone that supports 3G, according to a Chinese-language Economic Daily News (EDN) report. The baseband chip (PMB878) will be fabricated on UMC's 65nm process node. Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) was the foundry partner for Infineon for the baseband chip used in the first-generation iPhone, the paper noted.

In other news, 3G handsets surpass half of US device sales in 3Q07, says Strategy Analytics. Compare that to ~100% in Japan.

Google's move to add video seems to show they are wanting to bolster there map system (living in England, I still use the maps.google.com not the .co.uk version). Why not throw in A-GPS direction support? The cries for hands free dialling must be ever loud, and

In the WWDC - The Audio Development for iPhone track promises to show developers how to make their applications record audio with their device. I'm guessing throwing in one for video would give the game away... As I said, bonjour support for the iPhone could be used as a wireless iPod communication system. And lots more. Those apps that show you if someone with similar interests walks past could be made to actually work. All sorts... The potential has been broadened from the capabilities and man hours of the Apple app developers, to the capabilities, creativity and man hours of the whole SDK Apple app user pool - i.e. Letting people be their own app developer is going to be hugely useful for Apple (I've probably already said, but it bares repeating). Brand loyalty, brand strength, app diversity and quality all go up.

Digital Lifestyle Outfitters (DLO) have introduced VentMount, a new dashboard mounting case for the iPhone and iPod touch.

The VentMount rotates horizontally and vertically, and provides access to the side controls and the dock connector. It also operates as a belt clip when it’s removed from your automobile. And it can function as a locking desktop stand so you can view videos using the device on any flat surface.

Dashboard mounting. We wonder...

Quicdo Uk deal: O2 have dropped the price on the 8GB model £100 today from £269 to £169. Quicdco do £100 Quidco cashback for the next few days. (only on connected contracts). They sure do want to get people signed up and those 8Gb models out of the door.

Presumably you could use the accelerometers to actually map where an iPhone was in 3 dimensional space with some accuracy, if you started from a fixed point? If you track the acceleration and time, and thus the speed, in 3 dimensions, wouldn't that give it to you?

of acceleration and the

wildcardd

Apr 16, 2008, 12:53 PM

"Later reports confirm the company has been asked to produce Infineon Technologies' 3G baseband chip, which will be used in the new Apple iPhone that supports 3G."
Asked to produce now, rather than producing them full tilt now ? :|

I wondered about that too. Surely if they were going to do a release in June the board would be ready to roll by now. Makes me wonder if June is a bit too eager of a date.

Damn...I have been holding out with a crappy free Nokia from ATT. I don't know how much longer I can stand it.

t0mat0

Apr 16, 2008, 01:48 PM

It's all a bit messy really - Infineon did say ramping up from June...

If they hopped on it right now they could whip out an early fan-boy batch for June. EDN has been a pain regarding Apple rumours.

Anyone have any ideas on this?

zmit

Apr 17, 2008, 08:36 AM

...

Presumably you could use the accelerometers to actually map where an iPhone was in 3 dimensional space with some accuracy, if you started from a fixed point? If you track the acceleration and time, and thus the speed, in 3 dimensions, wouldn't that give it to you?

of acceleration and the...

hey! i didnt think about that at all. this could be useful for dragracing applications. (of *cough* some sort)
for example, there is a device out at the moment that uses accelerometers to establish (obviously) acceleration, g forces, therefore distance and speed.
using fairly basic formulas to establish a quartermile speed and time.

this could end up being developed on the iphone as well.

i know its off topic, but cool none-the-less

to keep it slightly on topic. im hoping for an australian release at the end of june, hopefully with 3g

t0mat0

Apr 17, 2008, 09:39 AM

hey! i didnt think about that at all. this could be useful for dragracing applications. (of *cough* some sort)
for example, there is a device out at the moment that uses accelerometers to establish (obviously) acceleration, g forces, therefore distance and speed.
using fairly basic formulas to establish a quartermile speed and time.

this could end up being developed on the iphone as well.
i know its off topic, but cool none-the-less

to keep it slightly on topic. im hoping for an australian release at the end of june, hopefully with 3g

Even better, you could have your own instant real time display of all the data of being in a car, like a racing car? Check out ride quality (as seen by bumps of the iPhone, shown as a simple height vs time line graph) or record (peak) acceleration, peak speed (we have a link to gps after all!) etc.
This is kind of what I mean by how much the SDK could change areas that previously wouldn't really have any need to touch phone apps at all.
Imagine "Dragsters Monthly magazine" giving out a set of free apps that you could show off your acceleration of your car.

Putting it on its head - Seeing as the iPhone triangulates with wifi signals - if you could add the latlong of moveable wifi stations, or create phantom ones - you could use a wifi signal as a finish line, or a waypoint etc.

Or using an iPhone as a Physics lesson aid. Pop it into a casing, put it sideways on, give it some wheels, and show off 2d movement. Put it on the end of a spring, and show the real time oscillation in acceleration through an acceleration vs time graph logged.

Or cycling. Apart from the mindmelting problem of non simple orientation of the phone in 3D space, you could use it showing pedalling strength left versus right foot, or smoothness of movement (through the changes in speed over time).

Maybe it's time to make a thread where people throw in suggestions for apps to see what's technically possible?

Aussie's gonna get a 3G party.

zmit

Apr 17, 2008, 10:27 AM

as suggested :D
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=5326014#post5326014

now we can get back on topic.

ive just ordered my iphone from over there.... we havent got 3G in the city where i live anyway, so it doesnt phase me much at all.

although if it has a GPS in it..... THEN i will be pissed....

t0mat0

Apr 17, 2008, 11:37 AM

as suggested :D
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=5326014#post5326014

now we can get back on topic.
ive just ordered my iphone from over there.... we havent got 3G in the city where i live anyway, so it doesnt phase me much at all.

although if it has a GPS in it..... THEN i will be pissed....

hehe :)

Prepare to be slightly pissed - as a dongle A-GPS attachment is less than 100 days away.

IndyJonez

Apr 17, 2008, 06:27 PM

Aussie's gonna get a 3G party.

Did I miss something, aside from the fact that fake promo pics were made for a australia release?

t0mat0

Apr 17, 2008, 07:19 PM

Did I miss something, aside from the fact that fake promo pics were made for a australia release?

It's fun to add random spurious rumor occassionally ;)

Nah - Simple thought being - If Oz gets a shop after June, and in June the phone is announced, then i'd imagine they'd probably have 3G iPhones in stock. Apple needs to buy/build and stock a shop before it's opened, which kinda gives us some clue as to when it'll be open for business.

zmit

Apr 17, 2008, 08:50 PM

hehe :)

Prepare to be slightly pissed - as a dongle A-GPS attachment is less than 100 days away.

a GPS attachment i can cope with.... then i can plug it in.... but BUILT IN then i will be pissed...

IndyJonez

Apr 17, 2008, 09:56 PM

hehe :)

Prepare to be slightly pissed - as a dongle A-GPS attachment is less than 100 days away.

May I have a link to any info on this please?:D

zmit

Apr 17, 2008, 10:27 PM

heres one i just found.... this will be good if it happnes :D
http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/12/tomtom-developing-iphone-gps-module

heres another....
http://www.applefanboyz.com/2007/12/16/iphone/first-iphone-gps-adapter/

and heres the other alternative
http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/07/posimotions-g-fi-another-wifi-gps-accessory-for-the-iphone/

t0mat0

Apr 18, 2008, 07:40 AM

Dang it's quiet. Ok - Quick link to Matt Mason's video on google video:
ALl about piracy and how businesses need to take note of them, and learn from them. In this relation, I think Apple has stolen a march from it's competitors:

Around 30 minutes in, Matt shows why - Apple has allowed the pirates to remix it's product for a while. It's gained a lot of information from this, and learnt some things that the users really enjoy, and have no doubt emulated it in their app store etc. APple is playing the pirates at their own game, and offering to come to the light side and enjoy some meaty 70/30 advantages.

Link this into the "stealth" weapon of Apple - They've been shipping the "Pro" tools as standard with every copy of their OS.
There's an argument about whether $99 dollars is too low a pricepoint to be able to get in to the inner ADC core, to get apps on the store. (It's likely a flexible price, and they're filtering not by price but by other means at this point, as they're not letting everyone in).
But still - All you need is Mac (dumbeedumbahdahhhh ;) ). You don't even need an iPhone at a pinch. Load XCode, grab the SDK, get the tools, start playing with the simulator.

http://www.macworld.com/article/132003/2008/02/xcode.html

The other thing Apple did by providing a free, full-featured copy of its developer tools was to make every single user of Mac OS X a full-featured potential developer, and you can for free join the Apple Developer Connection, and now get your mitts on the SDK. (and then get hit with a ludicrous NDA, but that's another matter). This isn't going to be useful for many, but it's seriously opened the door to make it easier for potential developers. As a side point, i'd think it'd make a great piece to see a Mac magazine / website see if they could get an average user's app design up and running with some help, and see how easy it actually is.

Interface Builder does seem to be ahead of XCode at this point, but as a user on macworld said:
"the point is, Apple is providing a serious toolset with no barrier to entry other than running and installer and learning. "
With the SDK coming, i'm sure technical publishers have see where the puck is going, and are hard at work to update and expand the documentation and learning material for working with SDK, IB, and XCode itself. Apple may well create a bridge, to hide Objective C to an extent. (XcodeTemplateFactory,Cocoalabs http://www.cocoalab.com/?q=becomeanxcoder has a copy online, and http://www.cocoalab.com/BecomeAnXcoder.pdf is the download.) (Having little to no coding experienec, the cocoalab tutorial is a good read so far.)

Would it be worth Apple's time making its XCode integrated development environment (IDE) more easy to use for both professional and beginner alike? I'd say so. WWDC may well bring a XCode 3.0 to 3.x update and throw out a lot more tutorials to boot. Least the variables are mainly descriptive in ObjC.

/*
http://developer.apple.com/referencelibrary/index.html
Same for developer guides:
http://developer.apple.com/documentation/

Just a few guides for XCode:
http://developer.apple.com/documentation/DeveloperTools/Xcode-date.html
More sample code:
http://developer.apple.com/samplecode/
http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/CoreData/cdProgrammingGuide.html
Aaron Hillegas will have a new one in May I believe on Cocoa Programming for MacOS X */

t0mat0

Apr 18, 2008, 09:58 AM

Now who's more sure of JUNE!

9to5mac : "Apple has placed orders for the production of the second-generation iPhone, while its European network partners complain at lower than expected sales.

The company has asked its Far East suppliers to produce 200,000 units of the new second generation 3G-enabled iPhone by the end of May, with production ramping up to two million, or 500,000 per week, in June, making a June release of the device a done deal.

Whether Apple could make a clamshell or a slider phone as svelt as the iPhone currently is interesting...

Original article:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/telecoms/article3770932.ece

The paydirt 1st: "Times Online understands that Apple has placed an order with its Asian suppliers to produce 200,000 of the new 3G iPhones by the end of May, rising to 2 million - 500,000 per week - in June. With a four week lead time between production and placement, that would leave Mr Jobs free to launch the device during an annual developers conference at which he usually speaks. "

It's right in line with the Infineon earnings call information, saying a small amount in May, with a ramp up. You heard the earnings call info analysed here 1st ;)

The article in full:

Mobile operators with exclusive contracts to sell Apple's iPhone are bracing themselves for significant losses on unsold stock as they clear the shelves to make way for a new, faster version expected this summer.

O2, which sells the phone in the UK, and T-Mobile, the German distributor, are said to have significantly overestimated the number of first version iPhones that would sell in Europe.

Kathryn Huberty, an analyst at Morgan Stanley specialising in Apple, said the losses on early model iPhones would be "significant" even though they may recoup some of this in monthly revenue from customers who bought the cheaper devices.

Ms Huberty said European mobile executives seemed to have become over-excited by the hype surrounding the iPhone at the time of its US release on the AT&T network last June. They had since had to take steps to shift stock on which they would now make a loss in order to clear the shelves for the new 3G iPhone, which is expected to be in greater demand in Europe than in the US because of the more advanced phone networks.

On Tuesday O2 announced it was cutting the price of the iPhone by more than a third — from £269 to £169 — and two weeks ago T-Mobile made an even more drastic cut, from €399 (£319) to €99. An O2 spokeswoman said the price cut was "not a reactive move but part of a well thought out strategy of maximising the success of the iPhone in the UK." T-Mobile was not immediately available for comment. With Orange, which won the contract in France, the three sold 330,000 units to the end of December, but industry sources say that European sales of the iPhone were forecast to be between 500,000 and 600,000. Orange has yet to cut the price.

O2 said in December that its sales of 160,000 iPhones were "broadly" hitting the target of selling "a couple of hundred thousand" by mid-January. According to a report by another mobile analyst, CCS Insight, last week, sales of iPhones had "slowed significantly" in all the European markets where it is available" ahead of the release of the 3G version, and retailers faced "challenges" in clearing stock from existing channels. Apple is expected to launch its new phone in June.

Times Online understands that Apple has placed an order with its Asian suppliers to produce 200,000 of the new 3G iPhones by the end of May, rising to 2 million - 500,000 per week - in June.

With a four week lead time between production and placement, that would leave Mr Jobs free to launch the device during an annual developers conference at which he usually speaks.

Industry sources told Times Online that the device will have a "radically different" appearance to the current device, which has a 4.5 inch screen and slick, aluminium backing. Among the possibilities are flip version, which would enable the screen to be larger, and a sliding model with a regular qwerty keyboard - as opposed to a touchscreen one.

"I think ultimately you going to see multiple versions," one Asia-based analyst, said. "One for customers who want it principally as a music and video device, which will be similar to the existing model, one for people who want to communicate - with the keyboard, and one for people who want it as a substitute for their laptop - that will let them browse the internet on a larger screen."

[Could this see the iTablet actually becoming part of the iPhone lineup??]

The new phone may also usher in a change in the way Apple strikes distribution deals. Ms Huberty suggested that Apple will eventually break with its policy of favouring one network to be the exclusive distributor of the iPhone in a given territory — possibly as early as next year.

She said that many had suggested that Apple's exclusive contracts with the carriers would last for five years, whereas it was more likely they were for two years. That meant that from June next year in the US — October next year in the UK — Apple would be selling the iPhone to other carriers. This fitted with the company's strategy of moving its reliance on payments from carriers to include charging for downloads of software applications and taking a cut of internet advertising.

Ms Huberty said: "Steve Jobs's (Apple's chief executive) end game is not to limit distribution and maximise carrier payments. It's to bring the best mobile platform to the market and then sell as many units as possible. There's lots of ways Apple can drive revenue from the iPhone that aren't part of the current model."

sparkyms

Apr 18, 2008, 10:18 AM

rockstarjoe

Apr 18, 2008, 10:26 AM

Great find, Tomato! This in conjunction with the Infineon call seems to be pretty solid evidence that it will be June. I think most people were already figuring June anyway, but it is good to see such strong evidence.

Now, if they will have roughly 450,000 or so made by the end of the first week of June (right before the keynote) what does that say about actual availability? Will it be announced at WWDC and then released immediately, or will they announce and then wait until, say the end of the month, in order to build stock to appropriate launch levels? I don't know how many iphone version1 phones they had ready to go on launch day, but that might give us a clue.

t0mat0

Apr 18, 2008, 10:34 AM

isn't it a bit shortsighted to go into full production of a model of phone that hasn't had FCC/CE certification, which, if this thing DOES have 3g, it would certainly need to do?

I'm going to wait and see on this one.. as the terminology "understands" is definately not a confirmation.

The article points out it's more likely to be things i.e. plural.
It's highly unlikely that it doesn't have 3G (clause - one or two of the models might not, but lets just assume that Apple has moved out of the EDGE stone age...)

We don't know it hasnt already got certification or at least a head nod.

Ok so let's watch the system in action, and how long it takes to get picked up. Not so much action on the Forum Spy yet...I've submitted to the front page a minute ago. And the post above is timestamped a minute after seeing the article on 9to5mac. Kinda makes me wish i'd read the paper today!

t0mat0

Apr 18, 2008, 10:59 AM

So a breakdown of the 9toMac article, and the Times article. We'll wait for Macrumors to catch up ;)

<edit> Thanks for macrumors/Arn/other for the Front page shout out:)

In brief:
- Apple network partners overbought, undersold, are feeling potential financial losses from unsold/unprofitable stock, and are pressuring Apple
- The 3G iPhone is coming. Announcement by June 10th is definite.
- Ramp up by June for production.
- Different model types to come out (The Times is a bit vague on this)

- Apple has asked "it's Far East suppliers" to produce 200,000 units of the new second generation 3G-enabled iPhone by the end of May.
- Production will ramp up to 2 million, or 500,000 per week, in June, making a June release of the device a done deal.
- The Times, who sources:

- See the new iPhone having a "radically different" appearance to the current generation.
This doesn't discount multiple models (an updated model 3G version, and a new model/models - e.g. flip/clamshell, slider with keyboard, slider etc.)

- When these multiple versions come out is still not pinned down. The Times suggests
- Multiple carriers might get them soon (but then this might be sloppy extrapolation from the investor conference call a month or so back, when Apple described itself as "not wedded" to its exclusivity strategy).
This could be as soon as next year.
(You'd think that, as Intel has it's MID Atom chips becoming more competitive with ARM's offerings, and also the competition to the iPhone becoming much more sophisticated and on a hardware par with v2 iPhone's predicted feature list.)

- European network partners got hit by the reality distortion field of Jobs, but customers expecting 3G iPhones weren't so affected: So the partners overbought, and undersold in relation to their sales estimates. Germany, France and the UK between them reportedly sold 333,000 units by the end of December; expectation had been for between 500,000 to 600,000 sales in the period.
==> the network partners have significant stock of v1 iPhones - This doesn't bode so well for future iPhone users, as this cost will be potentially passed on to the customer (think the 3G licensing fiasco). Kathryn Huberty, an analyst at Morgan Stanley told The Times that losses on early model iPhones would be "significant". Apple's under pressure to share that risk (and more likely to be able to have a way to sell them somehow to the grey market for example). You'd have to say the decision not to have 3G was part of this less than overwhelming response in Europe. Better to make the customer wait than disappoint in the end though IMO.

- Is the 3 week lead time between production and placement realistic?

- One of the big areas of talk is that The Times says the next gen iPhone will have a "radically different" appearance to the current device

Whether this means replaces, or creates another iPhone handset model waits to be clarified. The Times talks about "possibilities" and gives the example of a flip version, a sliding model. But then they say "as opposed to a touchscreen one". Surely Apple would still make the models touchscreen??

They then quote an unnamed "Asia-based analyst". Who thinks we're "ultimately going to see multiple versions". Which is unfortunately going back to analysts stating the bleeding obvious.
He makes the suggestion that different shapes would be more suited for different user types:

"One for customers who want it principally as a music and video device, which will be similar to the existing model, one for people who want to communicate - with the keyboard, and one for people who want it as a substitute for their laptop - that will let them browse the internet on a larger screen."

But wouldn't a clamshell or slider be going back in terms of design for Apple? The iPhone scores well due to it's screen size. To cut that down moves the handset towards the illthought previous Apple phone, and into the hands of Nokia et al. There are 1,000s of clamshells and sliders.

Personally, they might make a nanoiPhone, but i'd see them more moving towards adding an iTablet at the larger more expensive end, than seeing them add too many "not small enough to now use the internet on my iPhone" sized models.

Another point about distribution deals:
Ms Huberty suggests that the exclusivity was never truly found out - we didn't see the contracts, and the actual wording/lengths might have given Apple more wriggle room than first anticipated. A get out clause or special wording might = non exclusivity in current markets earlier, it might mean just analyst extrapolation from previous Apple statements in general about distribution in new markets.

(She said that many had suggested that Apple's exclusive contracts with the carriers would last for 5 years, whereas it was more likely they were for 2 years.) The interesting part of the timing of that if it was true was that 2 years would mean ending <edit:> *next* June for the US, but October next year for UK (rather than 2011 and 2012 respectively). This would mean that come Intel's foray into MID's mid 2009, Apple might be carrier agnostic to a greater extent in the US.

Ms Huberty : "Steve Jobs's (Apple's chief executive) end game is not to limit distribution and maximise carrier payments. It's to bring the best mobile platform to the market and then sell as many units as possible. There's lots of ways Apple can drive revenue from the iPhone that aren't part of the current model."

A lot to sink your teeth on this Friday :)

wildcardd

Apr 18, 2008, 11:34 AM

The interesting part of the timing of that if it was true was that 2 years would mean ending *this* June for the US, but OCtober next year for UK (rather than 2011 and 2012 respectively).

t0mat0 You are all over this again. Good to see.

But I think you meant to say was for *next* June (2009) for exclusivity. The iPhone has only been out for less than a year now.

t0mat0

Apr 18, 2008, 11:36 AM

t0mat0 You are all over this again. Good to see. But I think you meant to say was for *next* June (2009) for exclusivity. The iPhone has only been out for less than a year now.

You're right. Will edit. I'm in the UK and have held off buying since I saw the keynote, so for me, it feels like much longer than a year ;)

I'm probably going to keep debate more on this thread than http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=472491 as usually in those threads, a lot gets said, but people don't necessarily read through others posts, which kind of dumbs down the discussion somewhat.

So - Who where what when why and how much??
What's suddenly become a big question (Ah, I still love the fan boy realisation from last year, when Jobs starts going: A phone, an music player, an internet device. A phone, a music player, an internet device...)

wildcardd

Apr 18, 2008, 04:20 PM

What's suddenly become a big question (Ah, I still love the fan boy realisation from last year, when Jobs starts going: A phone, an music player, an internet device. A phone, a music player, an internet device...)

I can see it now:
"If purchased separately these products would run you over $2000, but if you call within the next 30 minutes it can be yours for the low, LOW price of $599" *oooohs and aaaahs from the crowd*

t0mat0

Apr 18, 2008, 04:34 PM

I can see it now:
"If purchased separately these products would run you over $2000, but if you call within the next 30 minutes it can be yours for the low, LOW price of $599" *oooohs and aaaahs from the crowd*

Booom! Start the clock ;)

The cost difference comes in part with not needed multiple hardware for the software for your application (be it mobile browser, GPS, phone etc). And the OS X for iPhone kinda helps out on that front.

The v2.0 2nd gen 3G iPhone

Who
Apple duh! no - the answer to the who question is going to be interesting. Apple has worked with other companies before, and also has long standing relationships with several.

Ones to watch:
- A map firm. Google is the prime initial target, but the iPhone is extremely attractive as a GPS solution, whether using a paid subscription or not.
- Google in general. Location Based services will come back with a vengeance. (Will Google start using the accelerometers for panning?)
- Nike - They're pegged as working on gym related information, but they did branch out on their own with their USB wristband. Since Nike Plus took a siesta, competition has surrounded them a bit more.
- Garmin. Apple's heading to buy someone. By no means a cert that it's Garmin, but a GPS based company could be a possibility. An Apple Forerunner 405?

What
Another mystery
- An updated iPhone, no real change in form factor
- A range of models, or the movement to allow a range to be created (the Times article was supposition at this point). It's debatable whether APple would move to a flip phone clamshell or slider (to some, it'd seem a move in the wrong direction, going back on the progress the iPhone shape gave).

When
Why is it that the rumors say 200,000 handsets in May, then a ramp up in June? Are these handsets just for internal testing? Could these be demo models for shops, to tease the public till the new model(s) ship?

How
- A staggered launch?

How Much
Apple usually has say 3 models, with 3 price points. A new model comes out, and it's the Kansas City Shuffle.
Disregarding the handset price slashing (which isn't touching the contract pricing so much) currently to clear stock, Apple has still been dynamic in its pricing so far.

NYYankees

Apr 19, 2008, 03:32 PM

First off, I appreciate all of the contributions Tomato has made to this thread. I just wanted to share my opinions about the 3G iPhone.

Call me crazy, but I think apple will somehow announce the new iphone either this tuesday, or next tuesday. I figure it will take approximately 4-6 weeks to make preparations for the launch and FCC process (although i read somewhere that Apple was in talks with the FCC at the end of 2007) And I don't buy the idea of depressed sales really. It's hard enough to find an iPhone as it is. Maybe I am just too hopeful for a May release so that developers can have it in their hands by the time WWDC rolls around.

Another point: A lot of people are saying that Telstra in Australia would be the first to receive the new iPhone. I think that is ludicrous. If anyone is going to get the 3G iPhone first, it is going to be the US. Apple is an American company, and the US has had the iPhone the longest. It makes sense for it to be refreshed first. Also, the US is Apple's largest and most important market. No way will they try to piss us Americans off by not giving us the goods first.

And I know that the EU has a bigger population, but marketing in Europe is more expensive because you have to deal with different cultures and different providers. In the US, the iPhone will be available nationally through AT&T and AT&T only. Its much more cost effective for them. Also, Americans will eat up the new iPhone just like they did with the first one. (Albeit with much less hype)

t0mat0

Apr 19, 2008, 06:08 PM

Call me crazy, but I think apple will somehow announce the new iphone either this tuesday, or next tuesday. I figure it will take approximately 4-6 weeks to make preparations for the launch and FCC process (although i read somewhere that Apple was in talks with the FCC at the end of 2007) And I don't buy the idea of depressed sales really. It's hard enough to find an iPhone as it is. Maybe I am just too hopeful for a May release so that developers can have it in their hands by the time WWDC rolls around.

Another point: A lot of people are saying that Telstra in Australia would be the first to receive the new iPhone. I think that is ludicrous. If anyone is going to get the 3G iPhone first, it is going to be the US. Apple is an American company, and the US has had the iPhone the longest. It makes sense for it to be refreshed first. Also, the US is Apple's largest and most important market. No way will they try to piss us Americans off by not giving us the goods first.

And I know that the EU has a bigger population, but marketing in Europe is more expensive because you have to deal with different cultures and different providers. In the US, the iPhone will be available nationally through AT&T and AT&T only. Its much more cost effective for them. Also, Americans will eat up the new iPhone just like they did with the first one. (Albeit with much less hype)

Crazy? Not really :)

As said, they could always pull something out of the bag next tuesday (being the day prior to the 2Q 08 earnings call (see previous few posts unless I haven't posted that info yet).

Remembering last June - Apple did silent updates of the XServe and the MacPro if my memory serves me - This time round a *lot* more kit will have passed it's normal length between updates in the Buyers Guide.

In terms of depressed sales - it was a bit of a hunt for the reasons of what was happening in terms of the price cuts, etc. A bit of a pin the tail on the donkey, till it surfaced that certain people had overbought iPhones from Apple, and were in a race to sell these soon to be redundant phones before they lost even more money on them.

I haven't heard anyone say Oz would get it first, and I agree - US first. Other places could get a simultaneous launch, but doesn't Australia need a shiny new Apple store first? :)

I'd say that Europe will give the US a run for its money in terms of sales rates. Or put another way, Europe is going to show a much better sales rate. There is an unquantified but large cohort of people wanting to grab the next gen iPhone (maybe read the boards here first to check out there aren't any weird screen or other bugs 1st though...)

It's in Apple's interest to get the product out ASAP. And I imagine they are hard at work at it. And those other amazing products in the pipeline, as Steve is wont to say.

zap2

Apr 19, 2008, 06:20 PM

wildcardd

Apr 19, 2008, 06:22 PM

Gosh, what will happen to this forum when Apple releases the 3G iPhone?

No one will have a reason to be here :p

Sure we will, cause people will start whining about 4G, OLED, 2nd Camera for video, GPS or whatever Apple doesn't include ;)

t0mat0

Apr 19, 2008, 06:31 PM

Gosh, what will happen to this forum when Apple releases the 3G iPhone?

No one will have a reason to be here :p

Look, 3G will be great....but I think people are over blowing how great. I'm far more "pumped" 2.0 iPhone OS update

Aye - I use saying 3G iPhone here synonymously with meaning the new iPhone(s) that Apple will soon put out with upgraded hardware, and the 2.0 software. It's a bit easier to say 3G iPhone :)

I think the Forum will have a large buzz come the WWDC - Apple could easily build the fanboys into a salivating/foaming frenzy (and deliver more this time *cough* MWSF keynote *cough*)

I can't wander too much on this thread in terms of 2.0 OS - (well, I could just change the 1st posts title hehe) but i'm sure as hell interested in it - (enough to have a look at the SDK, learn a bit about Objective C, see what goes where, and how hard things are to do coding wise for a simple app post IB work).

And technically - isn't the Infineon is more 3.5G than 3G? ;)
I hope they'll have OLED and a 2nd cam in come June, and none of this waiting round business. GPS can be added with a bolt on.

t0mat0

Apr 20, 2008, 03:31 AM

A thought for a Sunday morning:

http://www.apple.com/itunes/starbucks/

In the UK, O2 - the network partner with Apple, has partnered with "The Cloud" to provide access to >7,500 public Wi-Fi hotspots an Apple iPhone user can use.
The US has the potential of a sly "The Cloud" equivalent potentially - Remember the the news of the Starbucks-Apple Music Store love-in announced ~September 2007?

But...

Seeing as they are rolling it out now, you'd think they'd be pretty ready come June. As of September 2007, there were ~6,000 wifi enabled stores. The company hopes to expand the Music Store ability through 2008, with all wifi stores completed by 2009 (an estimate from last year, they may be ahead of schedule).

The Apps Store comes in June. So Starbucks will get both users wanting to browse on wifi for music, but also those EDGE iPhone users might pop in to browse the App Store (and maybe the general internet if they open it up truly like "The Cloud" in the UK). Oh, and they'll probably order a coffee. maybe a little snackerel. Ka-ching.

The Music Store's layout - Features, Top Tens, Search and Downloads smacks of the upcoming Apps Store. Automatic syncing. Songs downloaded from the wifi Store are added to a playlist called "downloads". Apple has and is known for repeating the user interface across its products, training people up unknowingly to use their other products with ease. So their website incorporates features from iTunes, iPods, laptops etc. Currently, when the wifi enabled iPod/iPhone gets near a Starbucks, a button automatically appears on the display, showing what the current playing song is at that Starbucks, which can be purchased, and also showing the last 10 songs.

Anyone think Apple has a wifi point deal for general browsing on iPhones with Starbucks to be announced in June for the US?
FAQ: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1691?viewlocale=en_US

Sidenote: http://www.theflip.com/ For anyone thinking Apple hasn't had an eye on video apps - I think it's just taken them a while to integrate video apps with the iPhone and the Apple application (Final Cut Pro, iMovie, iDVD etc). The flip is a big challenger in the video cam market currently - it's a best seller. And the thing is, it ain't all that - it doesn't have an amazing resolution, or memory (Up to 2GB, 60 minutes recording).

What it does have is a low price point, useable features, is great at low light video recording, 3 seconds from powerup to record. One button recording, runs on AA batteries.

http://www.theflip.com/products_flip_ultra_specs.II.shtml

So maybe Starbucks has a spot regarding the Music Store, the Apps Store link too, and if video is linked - there is definitely going to be some link to Youtube, and presumably the iLife suite, and also maybe to give some love it streams to an Apple TV.

Anyone think of other links Apple's going to suprise us with?

t0mat0

Apr 20, 2008, 04:13 AM

If you thought the deliberations on hardware was overambitious or demanding, have you checked out http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=322785 ?

A list is below (I updated from a post of mine on page 14 or so) showing the features requested so far. Some hardware requests are sprinkled in, in bold. It sounds like a problem for either Jim'll Fix It, or the A(pple)-Team.

I could imagine they are *very* glad the coding tools are being passed to developers to free them up from making apps.

- CUT AND PASTE
- FLASH
- 802.1x support for enterprise WiFi (SDK)
- Removable battery (not going to happen)
- Back button
- GPS (play nice with Bluetooth GPS receivers)
- Haptic feedback
- Leopard speech to text, text to speech
- Camera update to do video
- More landscape mode in other apps (e.g. SMS,email)
- iChat, IM, (SDK)
- mp3 ringtones
- Charging animation
- eWallet like app for private info (better password)
- Voice dialing
- Voice recorder
- Voice digit dialing
- MMS
- Unified email box
- Better video support
- Changeable Alert tones
- Make more files syncable
- Make notes syncable
- Louder sound
- Data detector
- eReader
- Better headphone jack...
- Themes
- .com and international suffix button on keyboard
- Home screen customisation
- Better battery life support (e.g. quick on/off wifi)
- Call duration of recents
- Groups
- Microsoft Activesync support (2.0)
- Multi-language support
- Removable drive setting (UMS)
- Streaming radio/audio
- Expandable memory
- Xenon camera flash
- Better bluetooth (syncing and more)
- A2DP, BT support, Vcards etc
- App store
- Mail revamp
- Mark all as read/unread button
- Consolidate all inboxes option
- Magnification glass glitch correction
- Non recessed connector (headphone jack)
- Tetherability
- Google calendar sync
- Bookmarks sync (Safri, firefox)
- Java support (SDK)
- File browser
- Ability to attach files to mail
- Wifi use of Skype (SDK)
- iPhone as remote for Airport Express
- 802.11n
- Finder
- Note sync
- Exchange Push (2.0)
- Tabbed mail accounts
- Video recording
- Updated camera
- Widgets
- Replaceable battery
- Games
- Syncing of lossless music to a lossy aac iPhone library
- Birthdays auto added as events
- Add/edit contacts whilst on phone
- Call history
- Recent calls split into All dialled missed received
- Detailed alarm repeat
- Mouse over support
- better contact search
- Option for SMS contents to not show upon receipt
- Display owner information when locked
- iTunes store
- Starbucks coffee ordering system
- Shared streaming media over wifi
- File editing, loading, storing.
- To do lists
- Coverflow of widgets
- RSS News reader
- Vertical scroll using bezel edge (think Garmin 405)
- Undo
- Able to delete single SMS from a conversation
- Download/upload files in Safari
- Spotlight
- Basic punctuation on main keyboard
- Built in GPS
- SMS to multiple contacts
- No key enlargement when entering password
- Wireless sharing of non-DRM (music) files
- Non camera version for the Foxes
- Settings screen
- Weather show radar, isobars
- Caller's dial code ID'er
- .Mac integration with wireless sync and online storage
- Spam filtering
- A Google map cache
- Color coordinated calendar appts
- voice tags
- non bubbles SMS's
- Advanced calculator
- better Safari response times (WebKit working on it?)
- Weather widget to show its icon as weather in 2 hr
- FM Radio
- Multiple/all simultaneous email deletion (2.0)
- Character count in SMS
- Reminder function (blinking light)
- Double space period then space insertion
- Missed call reminder function (blinking light)
- Sync manually option
- A speedtext button to a contact, similar to speeddial

newyorksole

Apr 20, 2008, 09:06 AM

t0mat0

Apr 20, 2008, 09:21 AM

All this 3G talk, people are also forgetting the SDK and Apps Store are being released in june. This means a whole array of apps that Apple didn't include will be put in the iPhone by other developers. I can't wait though, so excited.

In terms of timing many believe the 3G iPhone is going to be announced/shipped at the same time as the SDK, Apps Store, v2.0 OS and so on. It's just a short cut for many.

I agree with you interms of the SDK and the Apps Store (just had another look at it and will post an edit to this post in an hour or so). The SDK is going to give a breadth of application uses to put WM 6.1 to shame.

m1chnoff

Apr 20, 2008, 10:53 AM

Im very psyched for this phone.
I heard it was coming out late May/early June.

t0mat0

Apr 20, 2008, 03:51 PM

A refurb *and* a new iPhone come June eh m1chnoff? ;)

Windows Media vs. iPhone. & Other ramblings

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=322785
http://mobilitytoday.com/news/windows_mobile_7_walkthrough.html

Those UK price cuts seem to be working for O2 et al. it seems (Carphone Warehouse seeing >5x more sales than normal). But little did you know, that round the corner, Windows Mobile 7 is already "blowing away" the upcoming iPhone. Oh yes. Steve Ballmer predicted that the iPhone had "no chance" of gaining significant market share. Microsoft's mobile communications department Scott Rockfield (when asked about how the company expects to keep ahead of competitors): "We are not at all worried. We think we've got the one mobile platform you'll use for the rest of your life." Fighting words.

Whilst Gates is a fan of voice recognition, Windows Mobile 7 focuses on touch and motion gestures. Redmond has a lot of photocopiers it seems. Unfortunately, Apple it seems may very well beat them to the chase. This then will soon lead to Microsoft looking like they've aped Apple big style again. Which is a shame.

http://microsoft.blognewschannel.com/archives/2008/01/06/exclusive-windows-mobile-7-to-focus-on-touch-and-motion-gestures/ is the main url to visit, as most of this post is a rehash of it.

WM7 - A touching gesture to the iPhone

WM7 will see touch in a big way: flicks, swipes, screen drawing. It won't have scrollbars really, and will have motion gestures (through the phone camera rather than accelerometers).
Apple 2.0 will have flicks, swipes, screen drawing apps. Scrollbars are really a no no in the UI documentation. Apple doesn't currently flaunt any upcoming motion gestures of their own, but have shown the capability exists and has already coded and publicly demo'd as such.

WM7 will have improved visuals, animations and graphical transitions, and a refresh for better displaying media (photos, videos, internet)... Which is not hard to do, considering the dev. team is starting from WM6.
WM7 is designed for the finger, not the stylus. (Which is kind of an argument against upcoming iPhones getting a stylus, and physical keyboard ala RIM Crackberry).

Apple - well, Core Animation and relevant parts of the OS are opened up via the SDK to an Apple developer. Maybe we'll find that pressure sensitive, haptic touch screen is a possibility . Till then, the iPhone already has a bit of a head-start with music and videos (with possible Music Store and Apps Store via Starbucks also). Apple never had a mind for a stylus or hard keyboard (though may break these 2 philosophies somewhere down the line). Core Animation lets Apple easily throw in stock animations into the Interface Builder, and anyone with some coding nous will presumably come up with more. Hopefully there will be some great open source chunks of XCode to further this side.

WM7 will have audio and visual feedback. iPhone gets audio and visual feedback. Something along the lines of oooohs, aaaahs and smiles. (Yes, the iPhone already has some of this - e.g. it has the rubber bounce when you flick down to the end of the list. It has wobbling symbols when moving things round etc)

Motion Gesture possibilities:

Looking at how WM7 intends to do some motion gestures, it seems that it's going to use image recognition via the camera, rather than accelerometers. SO you tilt the phone to view landscape, it see's your lovely mug is now sideways, and the WM phone turns the screen sideways. No word back yet on possible battery usage efficiency between WM7's technique and accelerometer technique from Apple. (Personally I vote for the accelerometers - This gives a metric tonne more information - it gives 3 Dimensional position, and gives acceleration in all axes - which creates a lot more applications from the readings of these and also creates presumably a larger set of gestures (shakes, swirls, twists, leans, wiggles, circles, flicks)...(I think it hits the NDA nearly - lets say the accelerometers give many readings a second, as you'd expect from a smooth feedback for gaming via them, which has already been shown).

WM7 shows a nice use of the swipe gesture motion to give your preference in a <--- ---> left right visual option. However, there seems to be some superfluous glitzy tat / frippery being vaunted by Microsoft in terms of 1) Using shaking as a gesture motion that much, & 2) Having a deformable locked-screen.
I'm not so sure about the actual need to use a shaking motion to put a media section into shuffle mode (apart from aping from Sony-Ericsson shake technology?). It's a bit like using shaking the phone to wake it up. Maybe Microsoft's hunting a little bit too much for things to use gestures for.

Couldn't see any mention of pinch for photos: "When pressing the directional pad down in a full-screen media application, such as a photo application, you can move the device forward and backward to zoom in and out of the image." The amount that Apple's patents restrict competitors will be interesting to see.

Gizmodo's take

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/what.s-wrong-with-windows-mobile/whats-wrong-with-windows-mobile-and-how-wm7-and-wm8-are-going-to-fix-it-333536.php

"The number one biggest problem with Windows Mobile is its UI."
They complained of the lack of ease in multitasking, (no easy way to switch between apps), and it being hard to close a program (closing it doesn't really shut it down).

Both problems seemingly coming from allowing background apps - something which Apple is insistent on not allowing (with good reason). It forces good practise on developers, and as said, stops the above problems occurring.

Other Gizmodo nuggets include that for consumers, simplicity is more important than features, and that a touch screen is for touching. Simple messages. Another stickler area Apple has had previously is backgrounds - in a way this helps keep the visual aesthetics minimal and not overly busy on the eye - it's easy to see the icons against the black or grey stripey styled backgrounds.

How many ways does WM6 want to tell you that you might...just...have...missed...a...call...

Timings

WM7 was slated for ~ Q3 2008. However, Microsoft seems to be pitting a phone not yet made with an Apple one from last year (that's about to get an update in 50 odd days).
Was slated for...
WM6.1 was released April 1st. In a recent summit on WM7 Microsoft's Robbie Bach spent "much of his keynote address to CTIA attendees talking about how Microsoft needs to make Windows Mobile easier for consumers to use and enjoy." http://www.news.com/8301-13579_3-9921731-37.html?tag=nefd.top and it seemed that Miniman (who attended at Redmond) believes that Microsoft won't be ready to release WM7 until 2009, and maybe not till Q3 09.
http://msmobiles.com/news.php/7277.html

Roughly quoted: "According to our predications the optimistic scenario of WM7 rollout is: February 2009 announcement (MWC 09), sales starting Q3 2009...The release date is a bit late even in optimistic scenario so exasperation of Microsoft MVPs is understandable... however these outbursts were not expected from MVPs, who usually are busy pointing out why Apple iPhone is inferior to Windows Mobile phones."

Microsoft has launched WM 6.1 but the full-web browsing capability with Flash support is currently scheduled to be available late: ~ Q4 2008. Undersell, underdeliver? So Adobe might have a Flash app on the iPhone before WM6.1 hehe.

Conclusion

So not only is Microsoft basically having to play catch up and look the Xerox King (as there is only small number of optimal ways to do a mobile phone's UI, touch, maps, contacts, etc ) - they also will be late in trying to catch up - Even Symbian will have 4th Gen touch screen OS by then! As said, a month and a half away is a little WWDC talk down in San Fran, which might cause even more debate on this issue.

At least WM 8 is said to be giong to be redone from the ground up, with newer and more powerful mobile hardware. (Sounds a bit like Vista's successor!) "Microsoft promises features such as being able to go from a person's address in their contact info directly to a map view with directions to where they live." Wowee.

But wait!
Isn't WM superior to iPhone?

(From a Tim Hillebrand post) - The iPhone:

Can't perform Office functions (Word, Excel, slideshows (Powerpoint))
Can't create mp3 ringtones
Has:
No MMS, GPS, No expansion slots, No xenon flash for the camera, No video capability, No dual cameras, no screenshot capability, not multipixel, No phone keypad, No eBook reader, No IR, No Bluetooth 2.0, No BT headphone suport ,No 802.11 g/e Wi-Fi support, No mini USB for syncing/charging, No downloadable programs.
No iPhone to iPhone connectivity, No way to transfer files between iPhone to Mac or reverse, No removable battery, No peripherals for the iPhone (BT keyboard, BT mouse, BT headphones BT GPS etc), No voice commands (esp can't talk to iTunes), No way to watch/control TV DVR remotely, No radio, No way to use iPhone as an extension of your desktop monitor and move the mouse and data between them., No stylus capability, No way to change page transitions or animations, No way to control your computer or anything else remotely with an iPhone, No programmable hardware buttons (e.g. for control/access of volume, camera)

WM boasts >21,000 actual programs.

If you look a few posts up, the requests for software, and some hardware summary pretty much covers this (and more - macrumors users know there wants!). So highlighted in bold above, is what i'd expect will be sorted come June. Those in italics are for reasonable reasons, not really big issues. Of note, batteries is batteries. You replace them via APple, and you get a better battery length. Also, Bonjour in the SDK covers iPhone to iPhone comms. This might be huge soon - something that I imagine we'll see a lot more of.

The iPhone isn't a mini MBP. Wait for an MID in 2009. Some words from the writer of the above points:

"I hasten to acknowledge that the iPhone does what it does very well indeed. I never had it hang up on me and never had to reset it. The screen is crystal clear and the graphics a pleasure to view. The finger-friendly navigation has its problems and limitations but it is still a smooth solution that is fun to do. Everything on the system is easy to implement and ideally suited for consumers who do not know about or care about power computing on a handheld device."

Apple has stated that that is there creed - set out to do a few things, and do them well. it's raised the bar (for both network providers, mobile phone makers, and Symbian/WM teams).

"I expect that most of the items on the list above can be checked off as time goes by. But, for now I'm sticking with my WM device and will wait until I can do things like word processing with a Bluetooth keyboard, take videos, use Bluetooth headphones, highlight, copy, cut, and paste before I consider an iPhone seriously."

And that is some of the main meat of arguments for / against the iPhone currently.

A digression

Audio to text (-> and to spoken commands) - Why hasn't that military complex tech filtered down yet? Last I heard, ECHELON were using VAXs to be the hardware to do the grunt work to convert audio to text/recognisable words and phrases. What is the processing power needed to do it decently? I would have thought that there would have been a spin off. (Random thought - Would Apple hostile take over Dragon & it's Naturally Speaking business (a concept that's starting to gain a foothold in medical secretarial work at UK Hospitals for example).

ECHELON - does decryption, filtering, examination, codifying of both text, and voice. Maybe we have to wait till our desktops or servers in the cloud can match Menwith Hill's SILKWORTH from yesteryear. (Silkworth did the voice recognition, OCR and data information engines get to work on the messages apparently. As you can imagine, it's a bit hush hush.) They have a decent capacity and skill at it - (The figure I read was >300,000 simultaneous calls via several trunk cables). Maybe their voiceprint technology of the back of previous work might help at least in local accents - There is work like http://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/36013.htm and you can imagine with an expense account, a few 1,000 PS3s and some coding, you could at least get a headstart on some neural network analysis for different accents and speech recognition beyond words and phrases.
(Apparently the "The U.S. Navy is supporting new speech recognition research for its potential benefits to Navy sonar." Yup, sonar ;)

http://gizmodo.com/341287/windows-mobile-7-details-leaked-+-multi+touch-motion-gestures

Algalli

Apr 20, 2008, 06:25 PM

The one big difference between wm 7 and Apple I phone is that one can actually use the Iphone. Game, set, match!

al

transam7816

Apr 20, 2008, 06:39 PM

winmo os sucks

pocketdoc

Apr 20, 2008, 09:42 PM

I have used WM for many years, and although it is clumsy (now), it is highly configurable and can be "hacked" on certain phones (HTC phones can easily be changed).

This cannot be done on the iPhone at this time, aside from Jail-Breaking an iPhone.

Don't get me wrong, the iPhone is a beautiful device and I want one, but I would definitely miss the ability to have access to thousands of programs and to change the phone configuration.

I know programs are coming to the iPhone, but Stevo is so restrictive. I believe the choices will be limited.

Each side has its advantages and its disadvantages.

t0mat0

Apr 21, 2008, 02:17 AM

Don't get me wrong, the iPhone is a beautiful device and I want one, but I would definitely miss the ability to have access to thousands of programs and to change the phone configuration.

I know programs are coming to the iPhone, but Stevo is so restrictive. I believe the choices will be limited.
Each side has its advantages and its disadvantages.

What parts would you like configurable? I'm not totally up to date with the HTC - What parts can be configured that can't on the iPhone currently?

As said above, jailbreaking has allowed the "pirates" to remix the product and show where the people want change. It hopefully has been taken on board for 2.0 come June.

I think there is a lot to gain from being as restrictive as Steve is - Minimising clutter, making things simple, keeping the choice number down is good. Places like macrumors et al bring quite a few more "power users" which make up the minority of users of the iPhone. Apple is catering more for those with a little less technical prowess than those.

It's a hard one to balance. On a desktop app it's hard. On a phone even harder, as you just can't hide away those extra choices and configs you want - the format forces you to make choices to keep it simple. (And SDK wise, well, it's NDA stuff, but I imagine you're familiar with the User Interface material of Apple - there is reason things are restrictive).

Apple will get there. Slowly but surely :)

LiveForever

Apr 21, 2008, 06:49 AM

The rumours about more than one iphone suggests that maybe we will see apple start the real scortched earth policy it has been so successful with the ipod.

The talk of sliders, flip phones and a classic iphone could be the start of a range to suit all budgets. A nano, a classic and a touch.

If apple is really to compete with Nokia and the others it has to have a range to suit all from basic MP3 player with phone cabability to full on mini laptop.

iphone 2.0 will be the start of the range

wildcardd

Apr 21, 2008, 10:23 AM

So..t0mat0 with the Italy deal.

If true, and we are only a matter of weeks away from an announcement from Italy, do you expect an announcement from Steve-O sooner than WWDC?

I smell press invites as soon as the next couple of weeks.

t0mat0

Apr 21, 2008, 10:38 AM

EDIT: I parsed the babelfish translation as best I could.

If true, and we are only a matter of weeks away from an announcement from Italy, do you expect an announcement from Steve-O sooner than WWDC?
I smell press invites as soon as the next couple of weeks.

As said previously, why the 200,000 3G iPhones being made in May, *then* a ramp up? Awful lot of demo models. I'd say it's a cert that we're going to hear a bump in a few Apple lines. Jobs and Schiller have us guessing. Just like we like it ;)

Since the links on 9to5 and macrumors main page didn't do it: The article in full via Google translation:

Edit: Via Google without the Italian ;)

http://www.repubblica.it/2005/b/sezioni/scienza_e_tecnologia/mondomac/iphone-italia/iphone-italia.html

The phone immediately to the new version Umts. Not there will be ' revenue sharing' There will be ' revenue sharing'
and neanche the exclusive right: advantage at least six months for the group of Bernabè Nor exclusive: advantage of at least six months for the group Bernabè
The iPhone it arrives in Italy The iPhone arrives in Italy
Telecom has already signed Telecom has already signed
Jobs has been convinced to change the strategy that has carried to the happened one of the Jobs telephone was convinced to change the strategy that led to the success of the phone
Nothing comes to an agreement in exclusive right and nothing percentage on the traffic generated from every exclusive Nothing customers agreements and nothing percentage of traffic generated by each user
of STEFANO CARLI STEFANO of CARLI

The iPhone <B>arrives in Italy <br>Telecom has already signed </ B>

Steve Jobs with the iPhone.
Apple has sold in the world 4 million mobile phones.
The signing came directly Frank Benabè: A lot in those days was already in the USA for the road show presentation of his' nuovà Telecom Italy.
On 31 March Frank was in New York, shortly after flew to the West Coast. Official destination, LA with fastest passage to Cupertino, headquarters of Apple.

On the other hand on this Steve Jobs was imperative: the agreements and sign at the highest levels.
But it was quick, because everything was ready to seal the agreement that will bring the iPhone in Italy in to few week [<--Part that needs decent translating]s.

An agreement fruit of the work carried out for months by Luca Luciani, the number one Tim: to be well in spotikljaj ' paperà Waterloo, but can still earns the merit of being able to persuades Steve Jobs to change strategy.

Revolutionary because with Telecom Italy, and to enter the Italian market, Jobs would abandon the formula which up to now he has built the success of its super-phone: exclusive agreements with a single operator in each market, and the mechanism of ' revenue sharing ', under which Jobs collects a percentage, and also very salty ["salata"], as is 30%, traffic generated by each iPhone user.

Broadly speaking incardina the agreement on the following points.

1) The Italian market will not to be directly iPhone 2G but the new, third generation of iPhone mobile Umts that best exploit the strong development of networks Italian Band large.
2) The agreement with Telecom Italy will not be based on ' revenue sharing': no more percentages on the traffic but a higher selling price.
3) Finally, not an exclusive agreement with Telecom Italy, but an advantage of several months given to the group by Frank Bernabè.

An advantage that is already in the facts: the Telecom system is already essentially ready to receive in its network, technological and sales, the iPhone.

According to operator, leaving an hour, once made official that the iPhone Italian they will not be (exclusive) of Tim, it will still need time, Going outside of the generic : Vodafone or H3g, probably the first operating ones to benefit from the lack of exclusivity, will have to run if they will want to make in time to carry their eventual own iPhone onto the market for next Christmas. By the summer of 2008 to there will be only Tim.

At first it seems an odd agreement. Telecom Italy earns us to lot: you take home the first iPhone and paying much less than her predecessors. But because Jobs would accept all this?

The ability for the iPhone to market well is undeniable. Impressive numbers circulate.

For example, the United States, the first market to where mobile Jobs launched the iPhone, it appears that At & t has already sold 3 million handsets, 1 million of these in the last quarter.
More But even 3 these impressive is the fact that just under 500,000 iPhone through At & t are new users to a t & t, who have left their previous operator to switch to At & t for an iPhone.

What reasons have then pushed Jobs to abandon the old strategy of ' revenue sharing'?
The explanation is that this formula can not stand still [or resist] for long.

The market is changing. Mobile The world is moving rapidly towards Internet.
It wants to say that the rich part of the business of the telefonini will not be more the voice, that it will have more and more low costs, but the traffic given.

And here too, not I know much to product ' basicò like to simple stream of bits, but advanced services fee.

The system of the revenues of the mobile telephony between some year will be divided in three parts.

From a part of the fixed costs salaries for voice and simple connection.
This money goes directly to the operatiprs for the single fact to give access to its network to the user.
and is a quota that stretches to come down further.
Then there is the money users pay for premium services. Typical example: music.
You download music files fee.

But we also buy news, video, new services like all possible types of remote controls via phone and forth. And this slice of revenues will go to the owners of the services.

Finally third part tied to the search engines will be one, to the social networking, the maps and the information type such as Yellow Pages. These will be free for users but will produce revenues from advertisements.

And on this last type of services that is competition opened between the telecom, the suppliers of the services and who will be in a position of organizing and managing all this traffic, that is subject like Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, Nokia and Ericsson in how many holders of intelligences network.

that is where Jobs goes hour to reach revenues through ' revenue sharing'.

In short: the business generated by mobile phones will grow, but it will be less and less to invoice in bill by bill, which is where Jobs is now to draw revenues through ' revenue sharing'.

Jobs therefore has begun to understand that the parabola of the iPhone is reached its apex, as product.

Also because the assured competitive advantage from the technology ' touch screen', from the fact to have a efficient part ' computer' deriving from the kwow how historical of Apple is in order to be caught up from the contenders.

Alsothe competitive advantage provided by technology ' touch screen', by the fact of having an efficient part ' computer' resulting from historical know how of Apple to in order to be caught up by it's competitors.

Samsung and Htc have already launched the first smartphone keyboard and manageable without keyboard, instead without directly touching the screen.

And even if the first models to are not entirely at the level of Apple, you can bet that within one or two versions they will have bridged the gap.

And perhaps also they will have gone further. And this autumn comes the Nokia battleship that will launch its first ' touch screen' in time for Christmas 2008.

I know, Steve Jobs has in his hands a beautiful successful product.

But how to avoid "doing" a Motorola, which has failed to distance itself from Time to planetary success of its Razr, which is still the best-selling single mobile phone model of the mobile world, which has gone in 12 months from the stars to failure or almost? It must change. But how?

The iPhone is not a telephone to broadband.

It is still good for markets to where mobile wide band is not yet well developed. Like the United States [yup]
And, in Europe, practically all except Italy [I disagree].
The total percentage of Umts customers in every European market is clear: 20% in France, 18% in Great Britain, 15% in Spain.

But 44% in Italy: nearly one on two.

For markets still underdeveloped from this point of view the iPhone has mainly resulted in dowry to operators to strong increase in shipping.

All the more remarkable to markets still linked to voice traffic, as the United States.

Its ease of use, both to been annoying, both to buy products as valuable music and video thanks to the synergy with iTunes, has made a wonderful tool for users to start mobile Internet. But with the passage to the world 3G the things are complicated. And the competition increases.

Jobs has been found to be dealing with Telecom Italy for the first Time was unable to enforce this asset, the ability of the iPhone to generate valuable traffic: Tim, without the iPhone, has already recorded one increase in growth of navigation on cellular navigation of 90%.

In short, the competitive advantage of the Italian mobile market on the world still works.

In Jobs one is found again in your hands bbe found an instrument underrated: a browser.

The heart of iPhone is the the software that makes surfing the Internet and is called Safari.
From USA comes yet another astonishing number: 70% of accesses to the network via piece of furniture networks occurs from the iPhone Safari browser

And browsers are the true frontier of this new market.

It is not a coincidence that Google is working on Android.
For Jobs [it] suddenly became clear that the new primary objective is not to sell too few iPhone at the greate[r/st] price possible (between sale and percentages traffic) but to spread as much as possible Safari.

Incidently selling much more handsets thanks to the renunciation of exclusive rights, more
And Telecom Italy has [been[ found [to be] the right place at the perfect moment.

( 21 you open them 2008 April 21, 2008 )

wildcardd

Apr 21, 2008, 12:06 PM

As said previously, why the 200,000 3G iPhones being made in May, *then* a ramp up? Awful lot of demo models. I'd say it's a cert that we're going to hear a bump in a few Apple lines. Jobs and Schiller have us guessing. Just like we like it

200,000 sounds like a reasonable number for Italy, then with the ramp up in June of 500K per week. Who could those be for :D

Perhaps the phone will be released in Italy first, then as the WWDC keynote comes to an end...Steve will announce "Boom....Call now, operators are standing by"

I can't wait for the "Announcement"

t0mat0

Apr 21, 2008, 12:43 PM

200,000 sounds like a reasonable number for Italy, then with the ramp up in June of 500K per week. Who could those be for :D

Perhaps the phone will be released in Italy first, then as the WWDC keynote comes to an end...Steve will announce "Boom....Call now, operators are standing by"

I can't wait for the "Announcement"

Ok - So we await a decently translated version. Till then pigdin babelish:

Italy get it first? No reason whatsoever. Why not Australia? Or Belgium?
I think basically, when they mean summer, they mean exactly the same time as Europe.

Telecom might have signed, but that means jack.
Who is Frank Benabè - a company man??

" But it was quick, because everything was ready to seal the agreement that will bring the iPhone in Italy in to few weeks."
- Who says?

Apple moves away from revenue sharing (but a higher selling price) and exclusive rights?
Telecom Italy gets

exclusive agreements with to single operator in each market, and the mechanism of ' revenue sharing ', under which Jobs collects to percentage, "and also very salty" as is 30%, traffic generated by each user iPhone.

Then it goes a bit Obi One Kinobe:
"On first strange agreement seems one."
"Therefore, Steve Jobs has between the hands a beautiful succeeding product of."
"The iPhone it is not telephone to wide-band. It goes still well for markets in which the mobile wide band it is not still a lot developed. Like the United States." Lol

A big point - UMTS customers: 20% in France, 18% in Great Britain,15% in Spain. 44% in Italy

"But with the passage to the world 3G the things are complicated. But with the transition to 3G world things to are more complicated. And the competition increases. And the competition increases.

"It is coincidence not to here is that he has been working the same Google with Android. For Jobs without warning the new objective has been made clearly that primary to which heading is not to sell little iPhone al greater price possible (between sale and percentages sul traffic) but to diffuse the most possible its Safari. For more Jobs suddenly became clear that the new primary objective to point is not to sell to few iPhone possible price (between sales and percentages traffic), but spread as to make as possible its Safari. Incidently selling also much more it finishes them, thanks to the renunciation to the exclusive rights, more Incidentally selling many terminals, thanks to surrender to exclusive

"And Telecom Italy has been found to the just place in the better moment. And Telecom Italy has found the right place at the perfect moment."

Well, the article has a point. Italy has got UTMS. (It'd be interesting to see that - is that just major cities? )

wildcardd

Apr 21, 2008, 12:47 PM

Check out the post I just made:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=473746

Interesting if true.

t0mat0

Apr 21, 2008, 12:57 PM

Switch to Mac "3G in May"
http://switchtoamac.com/site/3g-ipho...wwdc-2008.html

Quote:
3G iPhone in May, new mobile device at WWDC 2008?
Posted by: switchtoamac

We don't usually publish rumors but I when my fellow MBA classmate, who happens to have connections with several Apple reps, passed on an interesting tidbit of iPhone speculation, I felt that it warranted publication. He indicated that Apple will be announcing the 3G iPhone sometime in May and then a new product at WWDC 2008.

3G iPhone announcement in May? If the rumor is true, the new iPhone will be available for purchase at the Apple Store one day after Apple announces it. So to reitereate, Apple will announce the iPhone an you'll be able to buy it the very next day. With the iPhone update out of the way, Apple will use WWDC 2008 (June 9th - 13th in San Francisco) to announce a new handheld device, a next generation mobile computing device.

I'd also like to highlight that on April 2, 2008, Intel announced Centrino Atom processors for Mobile Internet Devices (press release). The chips are targeted for used in cell phones, ultra-mobile computers and Mobile Internet Devices (MID). Since the switch to Intel processors, Apple and Intel have been rumored to have formed an "Apple Group" comprised of Apple and Intel engineers. <Snip>

Is possible. As long as production can be just above the level they're selling iPhones now, they should not have too many out of stock moments. 200,000 is enough of a buffer if they can be at maximum production come June 10th.

No idea why Atom is highlighted though. Didn't Jobs say late 08 (and at current power draw, it can't compete with ARM, or Broadcomm...).

t0mat0

Apr 21, 2008, 01:06 PM

Justinerator

Apr 21, 2008, 02:47 PM

wildcardd

Apr 21, 2008, 03:19 PM

We await May with interest. And wonder - if Apple announces the new version iPhone in May, what's the suprise in June?!

Anyone want to punt on which Tuesday we hear an announcement? (Low odds, Apple putting out invites tomorrow, for next Tuesday?)

April 22 T -7 weeks
April 29 T -6 weeks
May 6 T -5 weeks
May 13 T -4 weeks
May 20 T -3 weeks
May 27 T -2 weeks
June 3 T-1 week
June 10 (Keynote)

Here's my prediction:

Announcements the week of the 6th for an event the week of the 13th.

The week of May 13 seems to be lining up quite nicely. I don't know if it will actually be a Tuesday, but sometime that week we will see something.

saladiro

Apr 21, 2008, 04:31 PM

holy moly.....

WOW....tks for the update,

my question is, aside from this 3G I phone, it appears that apple will launch more later this year (eg styles type)???

why don't they release all at once and let people chose? It appears from a financial standpoint that more revenue would be generated because people are going to keep buying and buying the latest one. On the other hand, I see my self in the opposite situation. I may want to hold off on the 3G if a better one (with a styles) is to come out..in a few more months. If others shared my view, then the apple strategy works against them...

I can only say this....based on the response from this forum, I am calling my broker now to buy AAPL.

nuf said$$$$$$$

t0mat0

Apr 21, 2008, 04:48 PM

my question is, aside from this 3G I phone, it appears that apple will launch more later this year (eg styles type)???

why don't they release all at once and let people chose? It appears from a financial standpoint that more revenue would be generated because people are going to keep buying and buying the latest one. On the other hand, I see my self in the opposite situation. I may want to hold off on the 3G if a better one (with a styles) is to come out..in a few more months. If others shared my view, then the apple strategy works against them...

I can only say this....based on the response from this forum, I am calling my broker now to buy AAPL.

There's a lot to come this year.
- Complete refresh in design of the iPod range (nano, classic...)
- There's already been a Mac Pro "Early 2008". Wouldnt be too much of a push to think there would be a late 08 too
- Due to Nehalem and other changes coming up June and later, there will be changes to the MBP MB
- The info on other types of iPhone is rumour - (e.g. The Times article, see discussion on a previous page).

You can't do everything at once, whether it's feasible or not. A drip drip technique, not coming out with all the aces at once sells more, and keeps people wanting more.

I wouldn't hold out for a future model really. The primary benefit of a iPhone is the one large screen. Clamshell doesn't give that as much, neither does a slider (they both equate to a Nintendo DS in form - split screen). There's always something better in the pipeline, in a few more days/weeks/months - check out the Buyer's Guide for this. Unless you like not having an iPhone more than having one?

Remember AAPL is quite volatile around keynote time. You should think longer term (and bear in mind we're in something tantamount to a recession).

Changing the subject back to Voice to Text briefly

June 2007:

"Nuance Communications, Inc. acquired Tegic Communications Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of AOL LLC and a developer of embedded software for mobile devices.

The transaction expands Nuance's presence in the mobile industry and allows it to further accelerate the delivery of solutions that unlock the power of mobile devices and networks. Tegic brings industry-leading T9 predictive text input software, which has shipped on more than 2.5 billion devices, and next-generation integrated text and touch input solutions to Nuance's portfolio of voice-enabled applications for device control, mobile search, email and text messaging. In addition, the companies share a common focus and strategy for serving the needs of their shared customers and partners within the mobile industry, including Nokia, Samsung, Sony Ericsson, LG and Motorola.

Combining Tegic's T9 predictive text and multimodal input solutions with Nuance's advanced speech technologies for mobile devices, the acquisition sets the stage for a new mobile user interface that combines voice, text and touch to dramatically improve the user experience for consumers and mobile professionals. Building on a partnership between Nuance and Tegic established in 2005, Nuance intends to deliver an all-in-one interface that integrates Nuance and Tegic solutions to support predictive text, speech and touch input. This multimodal interface will provide easier access for users of mobile devices and will be available to all manufacturers across their product lines.

"The enhanced capabilities of mobile devices and networks have fueled significant innovation in features and services, but their potential has been tempered by the traditional interface on most mobile devices," said Paul Ricci, chairman and CEO, at Nuance. "Tegic shares our vision of delivering an integrated, superior and flexible user experience for today's wireless subscribers. Together, we are poised to redefine the way people interact with their mobile devices, delivering a more convenient, simple way for consumers to control features and access information on their phones, and search and navigate the mobile Web." "

Geekcentralnews article (and by the way, if you are reading this - Go check out their competition if you're in the US!)

The End of Typing as We Know It?
"In fact, not even close. Much discussion circles around audio-to-text conversion, especially in the disability services community. Bill Gates even believes (and has believed for more than 10 years) that we are on the very cusp of making audio into text a reality for everyone. That could mean no more typing!

Unfortunately, the technology really isn’t there yet, despite the best efforts of software developers over the last fifteen years.

The best tool for turning audio into text right now is Dragon Naturally Speaking version 9. This software, once installed on a computer, allows the user to talk into a standard free-standing or headset-style microphone connected to the computer and watch words appear on the screen in a word processor. As of version 9, Dragon works better out of the box than any previous version. That being said, it is not fool-proof, and it still requires that the user “train” it to understand how they pronounce words. This takes several hours, in general, and the program continues to “learn” as you use it over time. Additionally, it must be used in a quiet environment with limited background noise to achieve the best results.
<snip>
Despite what companies like Sony would like you to believe, there is no way you can take a recorded tape/digital recording of a lecture, presentation, or meeting discussion and turn it into text format with just a software program. Even Dragon, as good as it is, is unable to complete this Herculean feat. Audio recordings are full of “noise,” whether it be the person sitting near the recorder shuffling papers, audience members coughing, the air conditioner running in the corner, etc. Even a relatively careful recording has enough noise in it to confuse the text converter.

We are still a long way from the end of typing on a keyboard."

But as the Eurofighter has shown - you can do a fair bit if you have semi-rigid syntax, and only a few key words. I sure do hope Apple has audio commands in hand, and Microsoft isn't going to win big in this respect.

saladiro

Apr 21, 2008, 05:19 PM

There's a lot to come this year.
- Complete refresh in design of the iPod range (nano, classic...)
- There's already been a Mac Pro "Early 2008". Wouldnt be too much of a push to think there would be a late 08 too
- Due to Nehalem and other changes coming up June and later, there will be changes to the MBP MB
- The info on other types of iPhone is rumour - (e.g. The Times article, see discussion on a previous page).

You can't do everything at once, whether it's feasible or not. A drip drip technique, not coming out with all the aces at once sells more, and keeps people wanting more.

I wouldn't hold out for a future model really. The primary benefit of a iPhone is the one large screen. Clamshell doesn't give that as much, neither does a slider (they both equate to a Nintendo DS in form - split screen). There's always something better in the pipeline, in a few more days/weeks/months - check out the Buyer's Guide for this. Unless you like not having an iPhone more than having one?

Remember AAPL is quite volatile around keynote time. You should think longer term (and bear in mind we're in something tantamount to a recession).

Changing the subject back to Voice to Text briefly

June 2007:

"Nuance Communications, Inc. acquired Tegic Communications Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of AOL LLC and a developer of embedded software for mobile devices.

The transaction expands Nuance's presence in the mobile industry and allows it to further accelerate the delivery of solutions that unlock the power of mobile devices and networks. Tegic brings industry-leading T9 predictive text input software, which has shipped on more than 2.5 billion devices, and next-generation integrated text and touch input solutions to Nuance's portfolio of voice-enabled applications for device control, mobile search, email and text messaging. In addition, the companies share a common focus and strategy for serving the needs of their shared customers and partners within the mobile industry, including Nokia, Samsung, Sony Ericsson, LG and Motorola.

Combining Tegic's T9 predictive text and multimodal input solutions with Nuance's advanced speech technologies for mobile devices, the acquisition sets the stage for a new mobile user interface that combines voice, text and touch to dramatically improve the user experience for consumers and mobile professionals. Building on a partnership between Nuance and Tegic established in 2005, Nuance intends to deliver an all-in-one interface that integrates Nuance and Tegic solutions to support predictive text, speech and touch input. This multimodal interface will provide easier access for users of mobile devices and will be available to all manufacturers across their product lines.

"The enhanced capabilities of mobile devices and networks have fueled significant innovation in features and services, but their potential has been tempered by the traditional interface on most mobile devices," said Paul Ricci, chairman and CEO, at Nuance. "Tegic shares our vision of delivering an integrated, superior and flexible user experience for today's wireless subscribers. Together, we are poised to redefine the way people interact with their mobile devices, delivering a more convenient, simple way for consumers to control features and access information on their phones, and search and navigate the mobile Web." "

Geekcentralnews article (and by the way, if you are reading this - Go check out their competition if you're in the US!)

The End of Typing as We Know It?
"In fact, not even close. Much discussion circles around audio-to-text conversion, especially in the disability services community. Bill Gates even believes (and has believed for more than 10 years) that we are on the very cusp of making audio into text a reality for everyone. That could mean no more typing!

Unfortunately, the technology really isn’t there yet, despite the best efforts of software developers over the last fifteen years.

The best tool for turning audio into text right now is Dragon Naturally Speaking version 9. This software, once installed on a computer, allows the user to talk into a standard free-standing or headset-style microphone connected to the computer and watch words appear on the screen in a word processor. As of version 9, Dragon works better out of the box than any previous version. That being said, it is not fool-proof, and it still requires that the user “train” it to understand how they pronounce words. This takes several hours, in general, and the program continues to “learn” as you use it over time. Additionally, it must be used in a quiet environment with limited background noise to achieve the best results.
<snip>
Despite what companies like Sony would like you to believe, there is no way you can take a recorded tape/digital recording of a lecture, presentation, or meeting discussion and turn it into text format with just a software program. Even Dragon, as good as it is, is unable to complete this Herculean feat. Audio recordings are full of “noise,” whether it be the person sitting near the recorder shuffling papers, audience members coughing, the air conditioner running in the corner, etc. Even a relatively careful recording has enough noise in it to confuse the text converter.

We are still a long way from the end of typing on a keyboard."

But as the Eurofighter has shown - you can do a fair bit if you have semi-rigid syntax, and only a few key words. I sure do hope Apple has audio commands in hand, and Microsoft isn't going to win big in this respect.

thats cool....appreciate the response....!!!!

alielizadubois

Apr 21, 2008, 08:39 PM

corrado7

Apr 21, 2008, 08:47 PM

alielizadubois

Apr 21, 2008, 08:51 PM

I was under the impression that I could tell AT&T I wanted international service, and it would work.... Am I naive??

saladiro

Apr 21, 2008, 08:57 PM

I know that this has probably been asked already, but can anyone predict whether the release will be early June, late June?

Also, upon release, do they generally sell out very quickly?

My concern is that I am getting the iphone for many reasons, one of which is that I am going to be going to Asia for 5 weeks at the end of July. I will be very upset if the phone does, indeed, come out before I leave, but it sells out, or if it doesn't come out at all before my departure.

So... any predictions??
hi....i am no expert, but on this chat and other websites it appears some time in June (trust me , I am as frustrated as you are)...there are tons of rumors out there (one actually rumor was that Steve Jobs was going to hold off until he met intentional sales goals, before he released the new iphone. i assume this is because no one would want the old ipone) . Wish I could give you a direct answer

for your other question, I would think that there would be an iphone "frenzy" similar to the first release. I am not a marketing expert, but i believe Apple some how has the ability to win over consumer emotions and get people to sleep over night in front or stores. I called apple and AT&T and they pretty much played dumb (which I would expect) , but I did ask then if there was a way that I could reserve one,...no luck with that. I can only hope that the release date is not as crazy (on the other hand, a majority of people alreay have an iphone, so Day 1 may not be that bad)

..only time can tell

hdguy20060207

Apr 21, 2008, 08:57 PM

Perhaps now because of the Italy deal, Apple will relase the
3G iPhone in countries and not sign a deal with specific carriers.

Maybe Canada !!!!!!!

corrado7

Apr 21, 2008, 11:01 PM

I was under the impression that I could tell AT&T I wanted international service, and it would work.... Am I naive??

you are going to pay an arm and leg with ATT rates especially if you stay 5 weeks and you use the phone quite a lot

t0mat0

Apr 22, 2008, 02:45 AM

hi....i am no expert, but on this chat and other websites it appears some time in June (trust me , I am as frustrated as you are)...there are tons of rumors out there (one actually rumor was that Steve Jobs was going to hold off until he met intentional sales goals, before he released the new iphone. i assume this is because no one would want the old ipone) . Wish I could give you a direct answer

for your other question, I would think that there would be an iphone "frenzy" similar to the first release. I am not a marketing expert, but i believe Apple some how has the ability to win over consumer emotions and get people to sleep over night in front or stores. I called apple and AT&T and they pretty much played dumb (which I would expect) , but I did ask then if there was a way that I could reserve one,...no luck with that. I can only hope that the release date is not as crazy (on the other hand, a majority of people alreay have an iphone, so Day 1 may not be that bad)

..only time can tell

I think it was the Infinite Loop blog - made a decent point that Jobs has a sales target for this year. If sales did pick up he'd wait for a while before releasing the 3G iPhone. However, sales in Europe have only gone up because of £100 pound discounts on handsets (and a £100 discount on an O2 contract) for example. Which favours June to be honest. Apple will sell a lot more 3G than current in Europe - a lot of Apple evangelists/fan boys/tech geeks/tech leaders (who show their family, friends) may be waiting for 3G, if they haven't got one already. (And those that do have one already are likel to sell on and upgrade).

There will be an initial spike of sales. Trust me. But then you can order one, and besides, you'd probably want to ceck the forums for a week for any glitches/problems with the initial batch of handsets (see the black screen problem, yellow screen problem etc from v1 iPhone).

t0mat0

Apr 23, 2008, 11:06 AM

A roundup.

Well, Apple certainly did do something before the Earnings call webcast! (10pm UK time)

P.A. Semi - The second bridge?

"People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware" Alan Kay

Apple buys P.A. Semi CPU designers $278 million in cash. "Boom"! Apple had P.A. as a contender for Apple's chips, before Apple went with Intel.
P.A. Semi
- was founded by the former lead designer of the DEC Alpha & StrongARM processors.
- Makes PWRficient chips (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070213-8828.html) that they say are on the order of "300% more efficient than any comparable chips". They focus on power efficient chips, dynamically turning off sections of the chip as needed, when they section is idle. = less heat, faster clock rate, less battery usage, longer battery life

1) Now Apple's transitioned to Intel, could this be a divergence in the mobile side (Touch, iPhone, iTablet, iMID etc?) P.A. Semi’s chips are built from on the Power architecture, and the Mac was previously based on the PowerPC. So Apple has knowledge with using PowerPC architecture.
2) A bitchslap to Intel and there Atom chip (hello 2009 MIDs). Apple has some reason perhaps, after Intel started selling the Apple MAcBook Air chip to other PC makers.
3) P.A. might *already* have been to work with Apple, on the 3G iPhone. It's possible, as businessweek.com says, it's likely that it's going to be in iPods (they report Tony Fadell head of iPod division spearheaded the acquisition). This might be significant by the end of 2008. Just a thought, but I think Apple will be doing a decent refresh of the iPods soon. (They could easily get touch screens so you could play games on them for example, and do Bonjour).

As businessweek again says, there's a bigger picture here.

Unlocked 3G iPhones, non-exclusive contracts, June release dates

Apple is "not married to any business model" with regard to the iPhone. Apples COO, Timothy Cook

- Belgium - Astel.be reports 3G in June, unlocked.
- Italy - La Repulica reports Italy 3G in June
- India - itwire.com rumor - similar distribution, slightly later. (As soon as the Aussie store is up and running I imagine)
- Australia "" ""

"Italy and Belgium deals seemingly propose a new Modus Operandi (MO), in which one local network may have exclusive distribution rights for the device for a short time (a month or two) after which it will be made more widely available from multiple networks. Essentially users will be able to buy an iPhone and use them on the network of their choice. It will be sold unlocked"

This would be useful in terms of 3G cover depending on network, and where you live, and the rates on data etc. It's up to the network to price (within Apple limits I imagine) and then the consumer decides.

The Earnings Call

- Well, PA Semi will make the news, and why it was bought etc.
- iPhone plans
- Good Mac sales
- iPod slump? I think personally iPhones should be included. Please don't piss me off and talk about "cannablisation of sales". It's not the smartest thing to say.

Don't mess with Apple patents and design

Apple will protect its patents...URL]

Sony: The company which doesn't know what other parts of it are doing...

- Sony's going to buy Gracenote, the digital music I.D. service for roughly $260 million.
- Sony BMG is going to offer content with Nokia's "Comes with music" (a phone comes with a year of unlimited acces to music).

BlackApp

Could easily become big - if it gets the major stores in, it could use the iPhone as a virtual store card, eVoucher system. Think Kroger card, Nectar points, Esso tokens, AirMiles...

A sign of cool iPhone apps to come
MooTheCow has created a Drum app. Great developer group name, and also quite clever - Remember the Sony ad with all those instruments playing 1 note? Apple could do this with iPhones!!

Data, data, data

Any network taking the 3G iPhone is going to have to need to have a decent data package, if it's going to please the customers. [URL="http://www.macworld.co.uk/ipod-itunes/news/index.cfm?RSS&NewsID=21068"]A good read on the area (http://www.9to5mac.com/apple_kills_the_iclones)

China
- Could Apple go non-exclusive there to start, then as a strategy, move onto special contracts through a main provider?
- Apple's increasing it's retail presence, 1st store in a Best Buy in Shanghai's Xuhui area. Not exactly busting out into the market, but a start. Apple plans to introduce its own retail stores into China, with 2 stores in Beijing, 1in the Sanlitun area, 1 in Qianmen.

Surface

OK - What's to stop Apple not pushing out a Surface equivalent in their shops *before * Microsoft?
Apple could easily pimp out Balda to make a kick ass 6 foot by 6 foot screen / table displays running Windows and some kind of interactive game etc. I can just see these fitting in soooo much better than the broken ***** at the Science Museum (top floor above the cafeteria)

Bonjour iPhone apps
So much possibility here. Piratebay's venture to the iPhone? :D

t0mat0

Apr 23, 2008, 04:25 PM

With Apple.com now showing WWDC invite info on the main page, some snippets from the webcast of Quarter earnings:

2.0 iPhone Software
"Late June"

Thus - would the iPhone come out *before* 2.0? Don't think so. So expect 3G iPhone late June?

What are people's thoughts?
- Announce May, demo 10th June, release in time for OS 2.0 Late June?
- Announce WWDC 10th June, release, and OS update them to 2.0 late June?
- Announce WWDC 10th June, release late June with OS 2.0 already on?

3G iPhone
Regarding 3G and iPhone: "We don't comment on new products".
Regarding having current iPhone version alongside 3G versions: "We don't comment on unreleased products"

iPhone 10 million target
CONFIDENT of hitting 10million for the year iPhone sales. Asked at least twice about this, the answer was both times, that Apple was confident of hitting it.
Unit number target includes locked and unlocked iPhone sales.

The unlocked iPhones around the world:
"Gives us confidence in shipping that 10 million in calendar 2008"

Network Partners
More markets inc. Asia this year for iPhone. Apple is looking to roll out to more geographies, more places in Europe and Asia this year.

iPhone shortages
Apple expected iPhone to decline more than it did so sales beat unit expectations so at the end of quarter Apple experienced stock out. US stores have experienced relatively more and Apple believes there are a number of phones bought with the intention of unlocking (The number continues to be significant) a proxy for the worldwide demand for the phone.

Outstripped supply as sold more than expected. Expected more of a sequential decline than there was.On aggregate, they're low both in the US and in Europe.

iPhone & carriers - pricing
The carriers are "free to price as low as they wish". Hehehe

Europe iPhone sales
Why not ship phones from Europe to the US?
Once shipped to a carrier - ability to move them from carrier to carrier is very low.
Stock outs occurring at Apple stores. More susceptible to people coming into US Apple stores and buying multiple units (for unlocking).

Retail stores
208 Apple stores at the end of the quarter, with 27 outside the U.S. Looking to open in Australia, China, and Switzerland, and have 45 new stores for the year. A significant number of the 45 will be international (but less than 23).

Percentage of unlocked iPhones
Apple has "gone out of our way to classify the number as significant"

iPhone SDK
200,000 developers have downloaded iPhone SDK. A third of the Fortune 500 companies have contacted Apple about the program.

iPod sales
Apple expects a sequential decrease in iPod sales.

From the front page (which isn't verbatim):
Q: 10 million iPhone sales goal...is a move to 3G technology affecting this forecast?
A: We don't comment on unreleased products, but we are of course always looking to roll out to more locations.

By that I guess they mean places that only have 3G?

So what was missing?
- No questions on GPS
- No questions on competitors coming in with iPhone wannabes
- No questions on pricing (no answer was given as to whether the EDGE only iPhone would be sold alongside 3G versions when they come out).
- No questions on the cost for Touch to upgrade to 2.0
- No questions on the purchase in relation to chip providers for iPhone

(Bearing in mind that the stock answer to anything to do with unannounced future products was "We don't comment on future product")

~"We don't have a practise on talking about our purpose or plans..."
"We don't comment on future product"
"We gotta try sometimes"
"Can we PLEASE have the next question please"

Sardukar

Apr 23, 2008, 06:34 PM

What do you mean "Intel selling the Macbook Air chip"?

Do you honestly believe Intel designed the chip at Apple's request? No! It was long in the making - it was just a PR stunt.

t0mat0

Apr 23, 2008, 06:44 PM

What do you mean "Intel selling the Macbook Air chip"?

Do you honestly believe Intel designed the chip at Apple's request? No! It was long in the making - it was just a PR stunt.

My sloppy English whilst typing it out in rough. The chip in the Macbook Air is what I meant. Yes it was PR, but I thought that Apple did have a hand in getting Intel to make a chip that would make the Macbook Air possible. Intel was always going to come out with something similar for other PC companies.

I think we're just debating the level to which Apple had a hand in getting Intel to get the chip out. I think we agree it was bespoke/custom made for Apple and the Macbook Air, right?

"The new processor was developed independently of the MacBook Air processor, Brown said. "These [SL7100 LV processors] are similar but not identical to the Apple processor," Brown said. The MacBook Air processor was specially developed to meet Apple's needs and is also available to other PC makers"
Connie Brown, Intel spokeswoman...

http://www.macworld.co.uk/business/news/index.cfm?newsid=20409
http://www.macworld.co.uk/mac/news/index.cfm?newsid=20294

P.A. Semi - A different take
Has Apple bought P.A> Semi for assets?
There chips require far more power than can be expected in a mobile handset (they need ~15W). They might go on and design mobile chips.

So if it's for the Intellectual Property and and engineering talent - what are both of those, and how will Apple use them?

(Ooops! I should have

While the news generated speculation that Apple might use P.A. Semi's low power PowerPC chips in future iPhones or iPods, Beyond3D points out that these chips require far more power than can be expected for use in the iPhone or iPod.

iPhone SDK
Remember there shouldn't be background apps? The new SDK build seems to have something interesting in it regarding that:
''Update: A blue and green birdie sang in our ear about the UIApplication delegate class: "There are definitely some very interesting methods added to UIApplication's delegate, including methods for badging the Springboard icon, and methods related to gaining and resigning "active" status - seems like background apps may be permitted somehow."''

Which kinda makes sense - the apps themselves may not be running in the background, but the iPhone can keep tabs of what was running before a call, or before you looked at the weather, and then give the option to come back to it (with the state the app was in saved).

t0mat0

Apr 25, 2008, 05:21 AM

Citi analysts Richard Gardner and Yeechang Lee:

Garner predicted in February that there would be a 3G iPhone announcement by mid-year. They've firmed it up to believe there will be an announcement of a 3G iPhone 9th June (likely date of Steve's keynote at WWDC).

Something from the Earnings call -
How best to get OS 2.0 out and the 3G out? For the hardware on the 3G iPhone to work, it'd need the OS to contain code to have these features work. So do they come with OS 2.0 software?

For those who got iPhones at the initial releases - what lessons or things did you find out?
Was it better to pre-order, or buy on the day?
Should you wait a week before buying?
Should (if you could) still buy in another country to get a better exchange rate deal?
What will be your source of information for the best apps to buy or try?

Speaking of apps - As the SDK updates come in (and I imagine, that come June 9th, when the features of the 3G iPhone are shown, they'll add the software code ability to control the new hardware functions for a SDK update that day) - there's been talk on the wire about how Apple is going to handle apps:
People want standard models to use: try before you buy shareware, freeware, limited day/function trials with a way to update them to full versions. And more - which makes payment much more complicated.

I'd imagine an update on this too come WWDC - fleshing out of the plans.

newyorksole

Apr 25, 2008, 08:19 AM

so people think that the 3G iphone will be announced June 9th and details on it ??

I really don't know what to think with the 3G iPhone, SDK and Software Update

It'll be an interesting time.

rockstarjoe

Apr 25, 2008, 08:31 AM

Another interesting tidbit - the 8GB iphone has been EOL'd in the UK. (http://www.engadget.com/2008/04/25/8gb-iphone-and-ipod-touch-reach-end-of-life-at-least-in-the-uk/)

saladiro

Apr 25, 2008, 08:45 AM

sorry for the ignorance, (i dont own an iphone yet...but hopefully soon) but what is the SDK app? something you download and does what?

newyorksole

Apr 25, 2008, 09:20 AM

I'm no expert, but from my knowledge. The SDK means software development kit and basically it's self explanitory. It is used to make programs for the iPhone that will be released at the end of June in the Apps Store. Developers could pay a $99 fee to develop for the iPhone and download the kit and Apple will choose select people and their apps.

Apple will get 70% of revenue from the apps sold and the developer gets 30%.

saladiro

Apr 25, 2008, 09:22 AM

wildcardd

Apr 25, 2008, 10:15 AM

For those who got iPhones at the initial releases - what lessons or things did you find out?
I think we think along the same lines. I have been debating this in my head for the past week or so.

Was it better to pre-order, or buy on the day?
If I recall, people who pre-ordered, the iPhones shipped on release day. That means depending on shipping options the phone could take a day to a week to get there. It would be longer to go "over the pond" I suppose if it were a release to all existing carriers. Although shipments did come directly from China so there may not be a longer delay to Europe than to the US.

The stores had a lot of stock and were replenished almost daily. Most people who walked into the Apple store that night got one.

Should you wait a week before buying?
That is another issue that came up. Activation. Many reports of people not able to activate their phone for a day or two after getting it. Oh the agony of having the iPhone in your hands but not able to do anything with it. Perhaps it might be better to wait a week. On the other hand, if the store has it, you might as well buy it because who knows what their stocking levels will be in a week?

icantbelieveit

Apr 25, 2008, 11:03 AM

t0mat0

Apr 25, 2008, 11:55 AM

I think we think along the same lines. I have been debating this in my head for the past week or so.

If I recall, people who pre-ordered, the iPhones shipped on release day. That means depending on shipping options the phone could take a day to a week to get there. It would be longer to go "over the pond" I suppose if it were a release to all existing carriers. Although shipments did come directly from China so there may not be a longer delay to Europe than to the US.

The stores had a lot of stock and were replenished almost daily. Most people who walked into the Apple store that night got one.

That is another issue that came up. Activation. Many reports of people not able to activate their phone for a day or two after getting it. Oh the agony of having the iPhone in your hands but not able to do anything with it. Perhaps it might be better to wait a week. On the other hand, if the store has it, you might as well buy it because who knows what their stocking levels will be in a week?

I remember some people being *pissed* because their courier didn't even bother to try and deliver, and just left the note saying "You weren't in, we missed you. See you in a day or two"...

Activation will be different depending on the country this time, as it seems possible that come July say, that there will be network indifferent Apple iPhones.

In terms of demand - (having commented on another thread on this) - I think there will be big demand. Just saying oooh, there are already people with an iPhone so Apple won't get as good a demand for them isn't a credible reason. If the EDGE only phone isn't going to be allowed to co-exist next to the 3G handset iPhones, then there is going to be demand at least equivalent to current sales levels.

Case in point - the Macbook Air,and also the MB/MBP in general - Apple is doing well taking new customers who are recent converts to Apple. They're making their slice of the markets bigger by getting converts/multidevice users, and also getting new customers.

Apple can change the prices up much more and offer if they want to a better price range of iPhones, with a different set of features if they want to. For business users, they can claim the iPhone on expenses, or claim VAT back. For business management they can put it on the corporate tab. For geek users, there will be several who'll just sell their own phone and get a new one.
I'd imagine that this section will be sizable - If the person is able enough to unlock their iPhone, they may be much more aware of the upcoming 3G iPhone update, and sell before the general public becomes aware and the resale price of 16Gb EDGE only Phones goes down. We still don't really know if Apple is going to screw over those who've unlocked their iPhones currently. They might be pro-active in this, or they might just use the temptations of Apps store etc to bring users back into the fold. We'll see.

One thing i'd be interested to see is how much the VIP developers have had access to that isn't in the normal SDK release/information. Have they had access to code calls to a GPS function, or a video function? Is there a 2 tier program on currently, or will it become a free for all coding session come June 9th/10th to race to get something out for when the 3G iPhone hits?
Would Apple do that, or would they provide a more level playing field?

Edit: Looks like we might be having GPS if Engadget is right...

pocketdoc

Apr 26, 2008, 12:10 PM

t0mat0

Apr 26, 2008, 02:06 PM

t0mat0, take a look at this: http://gizmodo.com/384356/glossy-black-iphone-3g-is-just-a-third+party-case

Gizmodo "smashed" Engadget's rumor regarding the pic. It apparently is a case.

Who do you believe?

Didn't engadget just use the picture? gizmodo could be just biting engadget's ass. Don't forget that Jobs was screwing around with the case design till the last minute. And then after the last minute. We'll see - i'm undecided, but making it slightly bigger would easily be feasible, and also easily fit the GPS in. And the style of the case shown isn't totally unbelievable.
From Engadget page:

"we're not by any means claiming the image above is the new iPhone, just an example of what it could look like given the info we received."

As a sidenote: I see on Page 1 that there is talk of the iPhone becoming a remote control. Talked about it previously, but I'll make a guess here - the iPhone will either have IR in the next model, or the one after that, which will allow people to use it as a remote control for tvs etc. Using iPhone for remote control of a Mac for Front Row, presentations etc all make sense.
TUAW's note goes further, in that the "iControl" will both allow control of media from iTunes libraries, but also stream media from them.

Going to the gym yesterday, I was thinking there could be a market for this - If the iPhone can do wifi and also radio, then the audio channels for tvs in gyms could use a gym branded application to tune into the tv audio. With Nike's move with Apple in terms of gym and outdoor routines, i would imagine a series of other apps to come out for the different gyms (e.g. Cannon, Fitness First, Esporta etc in the UK) to try and pin down the data created from being at the gym so as to lock the user more into their gym. A gym agnostic application that stores the user's data is not what they want... (Though it's the best for the gym user if the gym programs were compatible. It's a bit like he whole problem of not being able to transfer data easily between the walled gardens of social networking sites, or email applications).

Apple's had enough work on it's hands sorting out it's routers and connectivity with Apple products, why not see the 3G iPhone thrown into the mix? There's a logical argument to be able to use the iPhone as a slaved UI for Apple products -
- e.g. using it as a controller for games on a MacBook or MBP
- a multitouch pad or secondary pad for programs which need either complex 3D manipulation, or have multiple key combo usage
- as a mouse pad

We'll see, but the iPhone creates a gateway for reinforcing concepts from many areas of Apple's world to and from the iPhone.