Leopard on non apple hardware

[M.Ford]

All,

This is my first post and a chance to become another apple user. What I am not looking for is not a flame war but honest answers to honest questions. What I believe is that you get the right tool for the job and am not a fanboi for anyone. Sorry for the odd introduction but I have this impression that Apple folks are all fanbois though I really want to be wrong. That said, and I am sorry if I offended anyone and here is the question

I am considering an Apple purchase. Currently I have a home built PC running a dual boot Vista/XP install. I have been building PCs for about a decade. Generally, my time on the computer is spent with surfing, bills and some games. I am considering an Apple to replace my desktop because it is time for an upgrade. I have heard that you might be able to get OS X installed on non Apple desktops and I am looking for more information around this. The point is that I could try Apple or without paying at least $500 for a mini. Has anyone tried this? If I could do it and decided that I liked OS X I would actually buy a Mac.

Thanks.

[Eraserhead]

Hmm, you can, but I'm not sure how.

Most sites discussing this also give links to pirate OS X, which we don't support here so I can't give you any links.

Personally I don't see an issue with what you are doing, as long as you buy a retail copy of the OS.

[Peace]

Installing OSX on non Apple hardware is a no no.Period.No flames just fact.

[jeffmc]

google : OX X86 project

be aware i've heard it's EXTREMELY buggy, not put out or supported by apple in the slightest

[flopticalcube]

Technically possible but by doing so you are breaking your license agreement with Apple.

[Peace]

Technically possible but by doing so you are breaking your license agreement with Apple.

You're also breaking intellectual property laws.

[steveza]

It is possible but (as stated) is also a license violation.

As a side note I did try this out at one point to answer similar questions but found that the experience wasn't that great and bought a mac mini instead. Basically even if you do try it out it wont really be a motivating factor to get a mac IMO.

Get down to an Apple store if you can - pull up a chair and play away.

[f1]

Possible, but you're breaking Apple's EULA. You seem like a tech savvy guy, just google it and you'll find the instructions. You probably won't like running Leopard on non apple hardware tho, it'll be quite buggy.

[yellow]

Mac OS X on non-Apple hardware is a violation of the Software License Agreement that comes with Mac OS X.
You'll not get too much traction investigating circumventing that here.

I have this impression that Apple folks are all fanbois though I really want to be wrong.

I'm curious where you got this 'impression' from?

[Eraserhead]

FWIW This is arn (the site owners) view on this issue.

These issues have been revisited lately, and the decision has been to not police EULA violations specifically. EULA agreements are (theoretically) between the end user and the company. I don't see why MacRumors should be involved.

The problem with hackintosh talk is that historically it's been hand-in-hand with Mac OS X piracy. Frequently links and sites that promote it also link directly to or provide other instructions on how to illegally obtain Mac OS X. This blurry line has been why hackintosh discussion tends to get shut down.

The MacRumors culture also tends to frown upon the EULA violation that is the installation of Mac OS X on non Apple hardware. As a result, threads frequently get derailed when this discussion arisies, again causing threads to get closed

iPhone and iPod touch hacking do fall under the EULA violation, but is not illegal, in the usual sense of the word. There are also many legal 3rd party applications that can be installed with the hacking procedure. However, downloading copyrighted Apple applications (such as Mail, Maps etc...) is illegal and we should not allow links to those downloads to persist.

Hope that clarifies.

arn

[M.Ford]

First off, thanks a lot for the reasonable responses. I have read too many flame wars and I have not had enough experience with reasonable folks. Just because I do not subscribe to the Apple is everything mentality I should not be chastised. Anyway, I am glad that I am wrong here. Thanks folks.

I am less worried about the EULA violation here. I would obtain the copy through legal means. I just want to play with the OS X without being surrounded with teenagers and the Mac prophets that work the store floor. I have tried to talk to them before about tech topics on PC vs Mac and I lose them. I could talk to a genius but they tend to be swamped so I do not want to interrupt.

There is another concern I have that others might be able to give me advice on, I tend to like to upgrade my system on a yearly basis and for the most part that means switching out some hardware and I am good to go. I am worried that if I were to go with that Mac I would be stuck with the upgrade path of a whole new comp that I don't need. What are your thoughts?

[Eraserhead]

Macs do have a very high resale value, so you can sell them on if you want to upgrade.

[yellow]

I am less worried about the EULA violation here. I would obtain the copy through legal means.

I'm sure you would, but where you install it is another matter. One that I am worried about. ;)

There is another concern I have that others might be able to give me advice on, I tend to like to upgrade my system on a yearly basis and for the most part that means switching out some hardware and I am good to go. I am worried that if I were to go with that Mac I would be stuck with the upgrade path of a whole new comp that I don't need. What are your thoughts?

This will definitely frustrate you then. Macs aren't component computers, beyond the ultra bare-bones ram/hd upgrade, you'll find that upgrading it is a difficult task. You can't buy a new logic board, the chances of new intel drop ins functioning are slim, and new video cards are a crap-shoot (generally speaking, a PC version has to be flashed before being used on a Mac, and the Mac version is $$$$).

[kkat69]

I am less worried about the EULA violation here. I would obtain the copy through legal means. I just want to play with the OS X without being surrounded with teenagers and the Mac prophets that work the store floor. I have tried to talk to them before about tech topics on PC vs Mac and I lose them. I could talk to a genius but they tend to be swamped so I do not want to interrupt.


Since you appear to be a steady windows user you know that "EULA" doesn't necessarily mean "obtaining a legal copy" of the OS. In this respect OSX is not a "licensed" software like Windows is. You know as well as any of us that Microsoft "Licensed" their OS to use on pretty much ANY pc. OSX does not. Meaning even IF you bought a copy of leopard from the Apple store that doesn't mean you can install it on Non-Apple hardware just because you have a legal copy. It just means you pretty much wasted your money.

It's technically supposed to be on APPLE hardware ONLY, regardless if you bought the DVD or not.


There is another concern I have that others might be able to give me advice on, I tend to like to upgrade my system on a yearly basis and for the most part that means switching out some hardware and I am good to go. I am worried that if I were to go with that Mac I would be stuck with the upgrade path of a whole new comp that I don't need. What are your thoughts?

Mac Pro's offer probably the most aftermarket customization than ANY of the other Macs. The MB line (MB/MBP) only offer the HD I believe. iMacs you are stuck, Mini's your pretty much stuck as well.

Not to get into fanboi status, but people buy the macs because they will work for a long time, even eMacs have a good resale value and will even run a lot of modern software without the need for much or any serious hardware upgrading.

My recommendation is buy an older mac, I've seen good deals on eMacs and even older iMacs as low as 299 for an older powerbook. Some of those will even run Leopard (check compatibility) and you haven't spent a lot money ~$400 and you have a very stable machine and you can easily sell for ~$400 or more on eBay should you choose to buy a newer machine.

[M.Ford]

I appreciate all the advice thus far. I have had an interesting change of mind. I am thinking seriously about a new G4 since I am due for an upgrade anyway. That said, I do have a few questions:

1. I have a HD vidcam that uses AVCHD compression. On Windows, that software that can edit that is really crap-tastic. I think that I read that Final Cut can edit it, can iMovie?

2. I priced a G4 and Apple wants ~500 for a 1TB drive. I know that I can get one for less for ~250 on the open market. For Macs, is adding/replacing HDs as easy as it is for PC?

3. As I am a gamer (I can use Bootcamp/Parallels to the games that are not on Mac), is there SLI in the future? I know this requires a Nvidia chipset on the MoBo and I am not happy with the ATI solution (been burned by them too many times).

As always, thanks for entertaining my newbie questions. For me, this is a big decision and is not being taken lightly.

[Tallest Skil]

1) It'll have to be a GOOD G4. In fact, you'll want something better than a G4 for Final Cut. Get an old G5.

2) On the G4, hard drive installation is practically like a PC. On a G5 or Mac Pro, it's a piece of cake. That is not a lie.

3) You can't run Boot Camp or Parallels on a G4. There is SLI with the 7600 on either the new or old Mac Pro using hacked drivers and only in Windows.

I would NOT get a G4 if you'll be using Final Cut extensively. Even if you'll just be using iMovie, the boost from a G5 or better is powerful.

[OllyW]

3) You can't run Boot Camp or Parallels on a G4.

You can't run Boot Camp or Parallels on a G5 either.

[stainlessliquid]

http://forum.insanelymac.com/ check out the tutorials section. Pretty much every major motherboard is covered. You might have to sign up to use the search function to make things easier to find since there are a hell of a lot of tutorials.

Also check the hardware compatibility list at http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/HCL_10.5.1

osx86 is actually quite simple and very very reliable. Most people use it as a main OS. Its come a long way since the beginnings back when 10.4 came out. If you have a Core 2 Duo or similair Intel SSE3 processor with an Intel chipset motherboard then its smooth sailing.

If you are unsure about mac then I VERY much recommend doing a "hackintosh" first. It has converted a very large amount of people to making a real mac their next purchase who would have NEVER bought a mac since they were simply just curious, but it also has shown people that OS X might not be for them. Its the best way to give OSX a trial run as a personal computer rather than just a display demo.

[Tallest Skil]

You can't run Boot Camp or Parallels on a G5 either.

??? True. Oh, I see. Yeah, you need an Intel Mac to run either of those. I just suggested G5 in case he didn't want to shell out for a Mac Pro but wanted a significant boost over any G4.

[dukebound85]

Installing OSX on non Apple hardware is a no no.Period.No flames just fact.

as is violating the eula for ipod toches and iphones right but nobody seems to care there for some reason

google : OX X86 project

be aware i've heard it's EXTREMELY buggy, not put out or supported by apple in the slightest

it is not buggy as i have used one in the past at a friends. actually quite stable and impressive to be honest....

however that quote with arn's point of view is from a thread i started asking about the matter and i agree with his points. i just dont like how many members here have no issue violating the iphone's eula but are adament against osx's eula lol

[srl7741]

I appreciate all the advice thus far. I have had an interesting change of mind. I am thinking seriously about a new G4 since I am due for an upgrade anyway. That said, I do have a few questions:

1. I have a HD vidcam that uses AVCHD compression. On Windows, that software that can edit that is really crap-tastic. I think that I read that Final Cut can edit it, can iMovie?

2. I priced a G4 and Apple wants ~500 for a 1TB drive. I know that I can get one for less for ~250 on the open market. For Macs, is adding/replacing HDs as easy as it is for PC?

3. As I am a gamer (I can use Bootcamp/Parallels to the games that are not on Mac), is there SLI in the future? I know this requires a Nvidia chipset on the MoBo and I am not happy with the ATI solution (been burned by them too many times).

As always, thanks for entertaining my newbie questions. For me, this is a big decision and is not being taken lightly.


I read the posts quickly and you can accomplish everything you asked about
However, do you want a high maintenance system? Just reading the OP i would guess your up for the challenge and would be fine. If so let us know how things turn out.

I'm interested and don't believe in re-inventing the wheel.

[M.Ford]

Well, now I look the fool. When I said G4, I meant a new Mac Pro (doh!). I did go into a store and checked out a Pro. Of course they did have it paired with the 30" display and it seemed to me running Final Cut with aplomb. So, I am really close to making the jump. I am in the process of cataloging the software that I use and seeing if there are Mac versions or replacements. The only thing that I need a Mac version form is the voice software that I use with friends. I use both Ventrilo and Teamspeak. Vent has a Mac version, hooray!, and TS has a beta version for Mac, 1/2 a hooray! :).

As a switcher, assuming that I become one, what are some hints. I am sorry that this topic has grown beyond the Desktop thread it started in :). You folks rock. Anyone have a thought about financial software? I am using MS Money right now and would like to port the data to a native Mac equivalent. Moneydance claims to be able to import Money data

Lastly, I have not heard an answer to the AVCHD in iMovie or Final Cut only.

[Kelmon]

According to Apple's article on the subject (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1014), iMovie '08 does support AVCHD and you can guarantee that if iMovie supports it then so will Final Cut Express and Final Cut Pro. The link provides a list of the supported camcorders so I'd recommend that you check that yours is on the list. If you want to make damned certain I'd suggest taking it along with you to an Apple Store since they'll be more than happy to let you try it out "for real".

With respect to tips on the subject, as a switcher from a few years ago I can recommend picking up a copy of David Pogue's "Missing Manual" books. I did this before switching and they gave me a good insight into how a Mac works and, more importantly, how they differ from a Windows PC for tasks. Currently he produces 2 books on the subject - a complete OS X Leopard Missing Manual (http://www.amazon.com/Mac-OS-Leopard-Missing-Manual/dp/059652952X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204539166&sr=8-1) and a smaller Switching To OS X Leopard Missing Manual (http://www.amazon.com/Switching-Mac-Missing-Manual-Leopard/dp/0596514123/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204539207&sr=1-6). Both cost peanuts and may give you a good idea of whether the Mac is for you without having to either touch one or run the gauntlet of an Apple Store.

Finally, please never use the term "fanboi" again - it's not a word, no one ever admits to being a zealot even when it's clear they are, and it only ever causes problems.

[M.Ford]

According to Apple's article on the subject (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1014), iMovie '08 does support AVCHD and you can guarantee that if iMovie supports it then so will Final Cut Express and Final Cut Pro. The link provides a list of the supported camcorders so I'd recommend that you check that yours is on the list. If you want to make damned certain I'd suggest taking it along with you to an Apple Store since they'll be more than happy to let you try it out "for real".

With respect to tips on the subject, as a switcher from a few years ago I can recommend picking up a copy of David Pogue's "Missing Manual" books. I did this before switching and they gave me a good insight into how a Mac works and, more importantly, how they differ from a Windows PC for tasks. Currently he produces 2 books on the subject - a complete OS X Leopard Missing Manual (http://www.amazon.com/Mac-OS-Leopard-Missing-Manual/dp/059652952X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204539166&sr=8-1) and a smaller Switching To OS X Leopard Missing Manual (http://www.amazon.com/Switching-Mac-Missing-Manual-Leopard/dp/0596514123/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204539207&sr=1-6). Both cost peanuts and may give you a good idea of whether the Mac is for you without having to either touch one or run the gauntlet of an Apple Store.

Finally, please never use the term "fanboi" again - it's not a word, no one ever admits to being a zealot even when it's clear they are, and it only ever causes problems.

Thanks for the information about iMovie. I will look into it.

About the use of fanboi, I wont use the word again. To me it is a negative and sums up how I feel about the folks that, when questioned about why they like Mac, they get all read in the face as if you stole one of their children. The people that seem to be into Macs because they want to hate MS. All the responses from this forum has been great and I would never use that term for you guys. I do really appreciate it and I have to be honest when I say that you all are the reason that I am thinking about a Mac Pro as seriously as I am. I know that I will have to make some concessions but my hope is that the good is going to outweigh the bad in the end. I am in the process of determining the software that I use on a daily basis and seeing if there are Mac ports or Mac versions of the software.

[Knolly]

Question though...

Is breaking the EULA actually illegal? I THOUGHT that breaking the EULA just basically releases the company from any sort of obligation for support and such to you. I don't think they can actually take you to court because of it...

I would love to see Apple try to take someone to court who bought a legal copy of Leopard and installed it on their own hardware. Even if I'm wrong and it's technically "illegal" I don't see that ever standing.

[yellow]

To install it on one's "own hardware", one has to change the kernel (for a start), which means you're stealing Apple's intellectual property.

[pdjudd]

Question though...

Is breaking the EULA actually illegal?
It would be if the process to break the EULA would involve an illegal activity such as breaking encryption.

[cohibadad]

I am considering an Apple purchase. Currently I have a home built PC running a dual boot Vista/XP install. I have been building PCs for about a decade. Generally, my time on the computer is spent with surfing, bills and some games. I am considering an Apple to replace my desktop because it is time for an upgrade. I have heard that you might be able to get OS X installed on non Apple desktops and I am looking for more information around this. The point is that I could try Apple or without paying at least $500 for a mini. Has anyone tried this? If I could do it and decided that I liked OS X I would actually buy a Mac.

First off, as has been said, to install on a PC is against the EULA. Second, you will get an inferior OS X experience as there will almost certainly be driver issues and probably unexpected crashes, etc. Third, if you want a simple OS X trial, get a mini or iMac off ebay or Apple refurb store. There is no better way to try OS X for your needs than to get actual Apple hardware. Leopard runs very well on G4 1Ghz and up. Installing OS X on a PC is not like popping in a Windows CD and loading up drivers. You get a dirty experience at best.

[Nick T.]

Paragraph 1 of Apple’s SLA states that the software is only licensed, not sold, to the end user. “The purchaser owns the media on which the Apple Software is recorded but Apple and/or Apple’s licensor(s) retain ownership of the Apple Software itself.”

Paragraph 2 of the SLA states the end user “agrees not to install, use or run the Apple Software on any non-Apple-labeled computer, or to enable others to do so.”

BTW, Microsoft uses EULA’s while Apple uses SLA’s (Software License Agreements).

[stainlessliquid]

A lot of stuff in EULAs are not legally sound anyways. There are laws that cancel out a lot of stuff that might be found in them. Nobody really knows what is and what isnt actually legally binding in the apple license. Either way, Apple knows about the project and they regularly keep in contact with groups like InsanelyMac to make sure they stay out of trouble.

And I also find it interesting that people are so concerned with the OSX EULA but think unlocking and jailbreaking your iphone/ipod is so great. When you buy the iphone you are only "allowed" to use it with AT&T, which sounds a lot like when you buy OSX you are only "allowed" to use it on a Mac. Why do people think locking phones to carriers is so bad but locking OS's to computers is so good? Im guessing the one and only reason is that people here have no loyalty to ATT but they have loyalty to Apple, rather than actually considering any real legal or moral obligations.

To install it on one's "own hardware", one has to change the kernel (for a start), which means you're stealing Apple's intellectual property.
Not anymore. Using darwin they are able to emulate EFI, which allows you to install OS X with the stock kernel and everything else that previously needed to be "hacked." Theres only a couple kexts that need to be editted so you dont get a kernel panic.

[yellow]

Don't post that link again.

[vansouza]

All,

This is my first post and a chance to become another apple user. What I am not looking for is not a flame war but honest answers to honest questions. What I believe is that you get the right tool for the job and am not a fanboi for anyone. Sorry for the odd introduction but I have this impression that Apple folks are all fanbois though I really want to be wrong. That said, and I am sorry if I offended anyone and here is the question

I am considering an Apple purchase. Currently I have a home built PC running a dual boot Vista/XP install. I have been building PCs for about a decade. Generally, my time on the computer is spent with surfing, bills and some games. I am considering an Apple to replace my desktop because it is time for an upgrade. I have heard that you might be able to get OS X installed on non Apple desktops and I am looking for more information around this. The point is that I could try Apple or without paying at least $500 for a mini. Has anyone tried this? If I could do it and decided that I liked OS X I would actually buy a Mac.

Thanks.

My understanding is that you can build a PC that will run OSX but Apple is more then Leopard. I am not at all sure that you would be able to run iWork or iLife. So why not just get the mini, that is how I started.

[redsteven]

alright, back to the actual questions at hand....

The OP is a gamer. That's an important aspect to talk about.

I've been a mac gamer forever... even before the intel macs, it was certainly doable.

Lack of upgrades IS an issue though. The mac mini's are not user-serviceable at all.... even the RAM isn't. That said, it's POSSIBLE to do it, but you have to crack open the actual case. I know my father replaced the hard drive in a g4 mac mini so it's doable, but not apple-supported and doesn't involve simply removing a few screws :)

Macbooks, Macbook Pros, and iMacs - only the RAM is user-serviceable. The rest is. If you're willing to get your hands dirty you could probably switch out hard drives... but processor and graphics cards are pretty much nobody-serviceable.

The mac towers have always been very good (as far as i know) with upgrading. Unfortunately, these days the only towers are the very expensive Mac Pros (unless you're willing to buy an older, used machine).

If you want to game, you can definitely do so with an iMac or macbook pro. Unfortunately (unless things have changed since they first released them), the graphics cards in the Macbook Pros are UNDERclocked because of heat issues. I have a first revision iMac and Macbook Pro with a 2.16 GHz and 2.0 GHz core duo - both have Radeon x1600's with 256 megs of VRAM, but gaming is a little better on the iMac because the graphics card is underclocked in the MBP.

So... if you want to upgrade the graphics card I'm afraid that you can only do so with a Mac Pro : \
It's not the end of the world, but it means that you shouldn't expect to play brand new games with their settings on high.

Since you're switching, you might want to pick up a copy of parallels, fusion, or crossover if you buy a mac. Even if you don't purchase it right away, you know it's always an option.
And there's always bootcamp, which will run almost everything flawlessly, they it requires a restart.

For gaming though, bootcamp's by FAR your best option. Crossover can be decent for gaming too, but not all games run well with it. I had heard that they were coming out with a version of crossover specifically for gaming, but I was unable to find anything about that on their website (http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxmac/).


Also, if you don't know by now, apple's RAM is ridiculously expensive. If you want more than the stock amount of RAM with your system I recommend upgrading it yourself afterwards. www.dealram.com is the way to go. (for example, buying a macbook Pro with 4 gigs of ram from apple (instead of the default 2 gigs) is gonna cost you $400. Dealram.com shows name-brand 4 gig kits for less than $100.


And one more thing... if you're a student, make sure you get the student discount on any mac you buy. From the apple store, click on the "Education Store" link on the left side.

[cohibadad]

I'm pretty leery about trying to make any Mac a gaming PC. But I guess it depends on how you define gaming PC. If you mean running WoW, then no problemo. If you mean Crysis and games down the road, then meh. You can get a Mac to play current games well enough but they will get outdated and lack of GPU upgrades will frustrate you. I use consoles to game primarily. MMOs like WoW play fine on most Macs/PCs. I would like to try some more cutting edge PC games like Crysis, but it's not worth building a machine just to play them. At least for me.

[cybrix]

Anyone have a thought about financial software? I am using MS Money right now and would like to port the data to a native Mac equivalent. Moneydance claims to be able to import Money data


Finding a replacement for MS Money was the only think that kept my Windows PC from taking the boot. I researched and decided to go with Moneydance myself and I have to say I really like it. Importing your data from MS Money is definitely possible, but it can be a little tricky. After a little trial-and-error I managed to bring everything forward without mistakes. Once you're done the import and get used to the different UI, it's a great piece of software.

[redsteven]

Finding a replacement for MS Money was the only think that kept my Windows PC from taking the boot. I researched and decided to go with Moneydance myself and I have to say I really like it. Importing your data from MS Money is definitely possible, but it can be a little tricky. After a little trial-and-error I managed to bring everything forward without mistakes. Once you're done the import and get used to the different UI, it's a great piece of software.

Worst case scenario, MS Money will probably run in crossover, fusion, parallels, or bootcamp. But that's sort of the crappy option. Instead, what about these:

Cha-Ching looks like it might be cool (http://www.midnightapps.com/)

I'd also refer you to http://www.gnucash.org/

I'd suggest Quicken, but from the searches I just performed on it, it doesn't sound like people are thrilled with it.

Cybrix mentioned moneydance (http://moneydance.com/)

And of course, what about http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/business_finance/
There's 141 applications listed on that page. You probably don't need that many, so you might want to sort it by "staff pick" or "most popular" (the buttons for sorting are at the top of the page)

[M.Ford]

alright, back to the actual questions at hand....

The OP is a gamer. That's an important aspect to talk about.

I've been a mac gamer forever... even before the intel macs, it was certainly doable.

Lack of upgrades IS an issue though. The mac mini's are not user-serviceable at all.... even the RAM isn't. That said, it's POSSIBLE to do it, but you have to crack open the actual case. I know my father replaced the hard drive in a g4 mac mini so it's doable, but not apple-supported and doesn't involve simply removing a few screws :)

Macbooks, Macbook Pros, and iMacs - only the RAM is user-serviceable. The rest is. If you're willing to get your hands dirty you could probably switch out hard drives... but processor and graphics cards are pretty much nobody-serviceable.

The mac towers have always been very good (as far as i know) with upgrading. Unfortunately, these days the only towers are the very expensive Mac Pros (unless you're willing to buy an older, used machine).

If you want to game, you can definitely do so with an iMac or macbook pro. Unfortunately (unless things have changed since they first released them), the graphics cards in the Macbook Pros are UNDERclocked because of heat issues. I have a first revision iMac and Macbook Pro with a 2.16 GHz and 2.0 GHz core duo - both have Radeon x1600's with 256 megs of VRAM, but gaming is a little better on the iMac because the graphics card is underclocked in the MBP.

So... if you want to upgrade the graphics card I'm afraid that you can only do so with a Mac Pro : \
It's not the end of the world, but it means that you shouldn't expect to play brand new games with their settings on high.

Since you're switching, you might want to pick up a copy of parallels, fusion, or crossover if you buy a mac. Even if you don't purchase it right away, you know it's always an option.
And there's always bootcamp, which will run almost everything flawlessly, they it requires a restart.

For gaming though, bootcamp's by FAR your best option. Crossover can be decent for gaming too, but not all games run well with it. I had heard that they were coming out with a version of crossover specifically for gaming, but I was unable to find anything about that on their website (http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxmac/).


Also, if you don't know by now, apple's RAM is ridiculously expensive. If you want more than the stock amount of RAM with your system I recommend upgrading it yourself afterwards. www.dealram.com is the way to go. (for example, buying a macbook Pro with 4 gigs of ram from apple (instead of the default 2 gigs) is gonna cost you $400. Dealram.com shows name-brand 4 gig kits for less than $100.


And one more thing... if you're a student, make sure you get the student discount on any mac you buy. From the apple store, click on the "Education Store" link on the left side.

That was a fantastic answer and hit on some points that are important to me. What I am thinking now is that I would do a Mac Pro:
1. Nvidia card (I ill never do ATI, I have been burned by that company too many times),
2. go to a single CPU to save the money knowing that if I need another then I can probably get one and a later date and drop it in.
3. Use only the single drive the comes with the machine. I am not going to spend $500 for a 1TB drive when I can get one for less than half that and install it myself
4. stick with 2gb ram knowing that I can add more myself for far less than having apple do it.
5. try iMovie for my HD camera, it is one the list, and upgrade to FC Express if needed
6. I have a Dell 24" FP already so I imagine that I can just use that. It has both a DVI and a DB15 connection so I should be good there. I have my own MX revolution mouse so I should be good there.
7. The only stand outs that I have to address is the voice chat software and the money software and I think that I have those licked.

I know that I will have to make some concessions going to Mac but I am thinking that the gains will be more than the losses. As I look to my daily life, if I am playing WoW it is on the PC and there is a native version for the Mac and if I am playing anything else, it is usually on a console. I can do bootcamp if I have to play a PC game. The system will be strong enough to reasonably play the current batch of game. Mostly likely, I just will stay in Mac. I did order the two books mentioned for being a switcher and the unwritten manual and am anxiously awaiting their arrival. After 10 years of computer building I am thinking that it might be time to just get something that I don't have to screw with at all.

[redsteven]

2. go to a single CPU to save the money knowing that if I need another then I can probably get one and a later date and drop it in.

just check with apple on that... because I don't think that's always an option.

In this case, I'm guessing it is, since the DEFAULT is 2 cores... so hopefully if you order a single chip you'll get the same motherboard, but with 1 open socket.

[M.Ford]

just check with apple on that... because I don't think that's always an option.

In this case, I'm guessing it is, since the DEFAULT is 2 cores... so hopefully if you order a single chip you'll get the same motherboard, but with 1 open socket.

That is a valid point and certainly my hope too. Once I get through the books I will have a better idea of my direction. I must say, though, that I am getting a bit excited with the future purchase :)

[M.Ford]

Well, I am back. I have two final questions for you folks:

1. Has anyone had any experience trasferring HD video from a camera (Panasonic HD-SD5) to a Mac and be able to edit the footage natively (AVCHD compression) in iMovie or do you need Final Cut. I want the transfer to happen as a feed directly from the camera rather than getting a card reader) because I was told that you get more information like shot setting and such from an import rather than a file copy.

2. Can I take a Time Machine backup and restore said backup to a different HD of a different size? ie. the standard Mac Pro has a 7200 RPM 320GB HD and I would want to change it to a 10k spin 160 GB drive for the speed since I will have a SAN for bulk storage.

I had a great experience at an Apple store over the weekend. I needed to talk to someone about my video issues and I ended up getting a trainer who endured all my questions with aplomb. I have been really happy with my experience thus far with the store and you guys. Thanks!

[redsteven]

Sorry, don't have any experience with HD video, though i would EXPECT that imovie could handle it.

And since i don't have 10.5, I can offer no time machine advice.

[kuwisdelu]

Question though...

Is breaking the EULA actually illegal? I THOUGHT that breaking the EULA just basically releases the company from any sort of obligation for support and such to you. I don't think they can actually take you to court because of it...

Hopefully someone with a better understanding of the law can clarify this. I believe it's not technically illegal, as you won't go to criminal court for it. However, if Apple wants, they can still file a lawsuit for using their software in a way that you agreed not to do by buying it. I'm not sure if this is correct, though.

[Siron]

While I cannot answer any of your video editing questions I can say that games like Crysis run great on HIGH setting under Boot Camp (I have the Mac Pro with the 8800 GT card). Games that need a really good GPU do not run well under Parallels as it emulates the video driver (even on a very low GPU intensive game that I tried I got badly corrupted video). I use Parallels for Money 2008 and QuickBooks Pro and am well pleased.
There are programs like Crossover that you can try for 30 days to see if they will run your XP programs.
I was a long time PC user (I have built several "high end" machines) so I know where you are coming from. I just converted to a Mac and have not regretted it one bit (you can see from my signature that I have gone whole hog). The Mac Pro is your best (albeit expensive) bet. If you need a better video card down the road you can always drop a PC video card into Slot 2 that will work with XP in Boot Camp (the new nVidia 9800GX2 with two GPUs under SLI on one card is a beast). Two caveats about that - you need to make sure you don't exceed the total power supply with your two cards (300 watts I believe) and switch your video input on your monitor when you've booted to XP. I thought you stated that you had a Dell FP (which I do) and this has two digital inputs.
Alan

[Ikyo]

I have not tried to restore to a different harddrive from a time machine backup, but I have heard there are problems. If I am not mistaken, Apple uses the drive information in some way to store your keychain. If you change this drive, the keychain information will become corrupt/invalid.

I recently used the migration assistant to change from a 2.2 to a 2.4 macbook pro and it copied all of the applications, but I had to reregister many of them. I am thinking you will have the same issues changing the hard drive.

[CavemanUK]

I have not tried to restore to a different harddrive from a time machine backup, but I have heard there are problems. If I am not mistaken, Apple uses the drive information in some way to store your keychain. If you change this drive, the keychain information will become corrupt/invalid.

I recently used the migration assistant to change from a 2.2 to a 2.4 macbook pro and it copied all of the applications, but I had to reregister many of them. I am thinking you will have the same issues changing the hard drive.

just been looking at the migration assistant in leopard and one of the options for the destination machine is from a time machine backup which suggests the backup could be migrated to another machine or hard drive?

[applefan69]

just been looking at the migration assistant in leopard and one of the options for the destination machine is from a time machine backup which suggests the backup could be migrated to another machine or hard drive?

As far as my knowledge goes, you CAN in fact do that... but i've heard its not perfect and it sorta buggy. Like some people have been saying they permissions issues, where finder will copy files rather then move them all the time. Or will ask for your password every time you try to do something.

Also to OP, Im glad this forum (and others) have convinced you to purchase a Mac Pro, I hope you enjoy macs as much as the majority of us do. Remember that ANY questions and problems you can ask us about, and we'll all try to do our best answering them. You can consider that my warm welcome to the mac family :)

[Ikyo]

It stands to reason that you would have permission issues just like in any *Nix platform. Unless your users/groups file matches perfectly the owner/permissions will not be 100% correct. In theory, you might be able to do a true copy between the two from another machine or a seperate harddrive, but I can't verify this. I am currently working on this with a bootcamp partition that will not currently boot.

[M.Ford]

I finally made the move and ordered today. I ordered the Mac Pro and left it basic except for the video card. I went with NVidia because of my disdain for ATI. I am sure that I will have questions and will start new posts in the appropriate forms. Thanks for all your endurance in the persistant questions. I will add updates as I have them. I have grand designs for my office network and will let you all know how that goes. I think that if the Mac Pro works to my liking I will be getting a mac mini for my wife.

[Nick T.]

Congratulations on your decision! I'm sure that the Mac Pro will be an enjoyable experience for you.

Your Dell monitor will make it easy to run both computers. I've been evaluating a Mac mini for almost a year now with a Dell monitor with both DVI and VGA connectors - just need a $10 adapter. Just tap the button to switch between computers.

I use separate wireless keyboards & mice - - Bluetooth - no interference or problems. The Apple aluminum wireless keyboard is a work of art! If you use an Apple mouse it will require a positive attitude on your part because it's so different - but it soon became comfortable for me. No plans to switch to a "standard" mouse.

Check Amazon.com for books by David Pogue - - Mac OS X Leopard Edition and/or Switching to the Mac Leopard Edition. At least one of these is almost essential.

If you are a DOS or Linux command line user, then find out about Terminal. OS X is a beautiful implementaion of standard Unix.

Good luck and have fun!

[M.Ford]

Congratulations on your decision! I'm sure that the Mac Pro will be an enjoyable experience for you.

Your Dell monitor will make it easy to run both computers. I've been evaluating a Mac mini for almost a year now with a Dell monitor with both DVI and VGA connectors - just need a $10 adapter. Just tap the button to switch between computers.

I use separate wireless keyboards & mice - - Bluetooth - no interference or problems. The Apple aluminum wireless keyboard is a work of art! If you use an Apple mouse it will require a positive attitude on your part because it's so different - but it soon became comfortable for me. No plans to switch to a "standard" mouse.

Check Amazon.com for books by David Pogue - - Mac OS X Leopard Edition and/or Switching to the Mac Leopard Edition. At least one of these is almost essential.

If you are a DOS or Linux command line user, then find out about Terminal. OS X is a beautiful implementaion of standard Unix.

Good luck and have fun!

I have both the books already. That helped in the decision. I am not going to use the mouse because I already have a Logitech mx revolution. As for the two machines, I only intend to run the old desktop until I am sure that I have all that I need off it then it will be repurposed as an Ubuntu SAN for general storage and for time machine. Microsoft has a terminal services client for the Mac so I can use that to access the old machine until it gets wiped. Thanks for the well wishing.

[M.Ford]

Well, I just wanted to give you all an update since so much help and information was offered. I did end up getting a Mac Pro. It is mostly stock other then I replaced the main harddrive with a WD Raptor 10k spin for the speed and I added 4gb of RAM.

Over all, I have been happy though it seems that Apple apps (Aperture and Final Cut) are not so good at error checking. I have had them crash, mostly Aperture, when trying to get my PC files imported. There are work-arounds and I am sure that once I have all the data off the PC that the crashes will go away. Still, I am getting exactly the experience that I wanted and therefore satisfied. Thanks again